#medinat yisrael

[levantra]

Brief but good explanation for people wanting to learn the difference between Am Yisrael, Eretz Yisrael, and Medinat Yisrael. Also cites sources at the end if you want to learn more!

[yovelknell]

Since you converted to Judaism, how did you reconcile your beliefs on Zionism and the new community you are now part of.

As someone who is strongly pro palestinian liberation and interested in converting but hasn’t made that first step, I’m quite fearful of being ostracized or being told not to bother by a Rabbi. I support that Israel has a right to exist (so still Zionism??) but not in the form of a brutal genocidal occupation that has stripped Palestinians of their dignity.

How was your experience with this during your conversion process? Thankss

Hello, Anon — Wonderful question!

I understand your fears when it comes to conversion and Zionism. I believe my politics lean even further left than yours here as I don’t think the State of Israel has a right to exist and neither does any other apartheid, settler-colonial state. This definitely includes the United States of America. So hopefully my experience can reassure you a bit.

I will start with your first question: How did I reconcile my political beliefs about Zionism with my religious community?

I will admit, the past two months have been quite painful for me. While my Rabbi herself is against the Israeli occupation of Palestine (more on her later), many in my congregation are more pro-Israel. And it has ramped up considerably in the face of the Hamas attack and subsequent Israeli mass-bombings. There has been pressure from some congregants to start saying the prayer for the State of Israel every Shabbat morning service. We pray for the return of Israeli hostages but not the Palestinians kept hostage in Israeli prisons. We pray for healing of Israelis but not for the Palestinians in even more danger.

This has been difficult to cope with. It is one of the first times in my conversion journey where I felt so at odds with the community I’ve come to love. I’ve started adding Gazans to our community Mi Sheberach, and I can feel the tension in the room every time I do so. But, I’ve talked with my Rabbi. She has been trying to push the needle on Israel for a long time. Compared to the rabbinic norm around Israel, her sermons and comments on the bima are radical. She calls for the return of hostages, she speaks of human dignity and safety, and she calls for peace and the cessation of war. That she does not outright condemn Hamas and call for the war to continue is radical, in context. It definitely helps to know that I have the support of the Rabbi in my politics and that she is unhappy with the current state of the Jewish community.

Now your second question: How was my experience in conversion regarding Zionism?

It was a minor issue at first but it felt bigger and bigger as I got closer to my Beit Din. I converted in late August this year and I was concerned even then, when Zionism in US America felt far away.

We discussed Zionism in my conversion class. My rabbi emphasized that there are many kinds of Zionists and Anti-Zionists: fascist Zionists, liberal Zionists, antisemitic Anti-Zionists, and liberal Anti-Zionists. There was no pressure from her to support the Israeli State or to not. This reassured me greatly.

When my Beit Din came, I was scared. I didn’t know these rabbis or their opinions regarding Israel. While I wanted to stick to my political values, I ended up downplaying them. I focused on the pressure to agree with everything Israel does — one of the visiting rabbis denied such pressures exist. I felt we were too far from each other to even talk about it. And I had the weight of my conversion hanging over me: if I was not deemed suitable by these two rabbis I did not know, I could not finish my conversion. I could not be Jewish, I could not be counted in the minyan, and I could not help with services.

I think the key here is to put out your feelers when meeting with a rabbi. It will depend on where you live and how liberal your community is. I live in the US midwest — a politically conservative region — and was able to find a supportive rabbi. I do have to commute 30 minutes (round trip: 1 hour total) each time I want to visit my synagogue, but it is worth it.

You should be able to get a sense of your prospective rabbi. If you feel comfortable, you can bring up the topic directly. But, you can discuss about other political issues like trans rights and social justice to see where the rabbi falls politically.

I’ve also heard of some converts lying about their political opinions in order to get through their conversion process and Beit Din. I don’t love the idea, but I understand the state of American Judaism. If you have to lie, do not feel ashamed. This is more an indictment on your prospective rabbi if they do not make you feel safe to express your true feelings and opinions.

Please feel free to reach out again, through the ask box or my DMs, if you have other questions or just want to chat!

[unsolicited-opinions]

This is excellent.

This post was voted on by our Patreon.

The first version of this was posted in 2020, back in the very start of our page. It was an important primer then and it is again now.

In any good English 101 course, you are taught to define terms before writing the rest of your paper. Understanding how misinformation is spread through conflation, confusion, and intentional ambiguity is vital and necessary.

As we have, in the last months, been exploring Christian Zionism on our page, we've seen the comments run into issues of confusion on this very topic.

[sopranoentravesti]

Gonna make a controversial statement—people on this webbed site had more compassion for the poor white rural Trump supporters than they do for Jews

[feygaleh]

This is a genuine question because I'm trying to understand your side and not get involved in internet fights.

You keep saying you pray to Eretz Yisrael and not Medinat Yisrael. But if you're praying and the prayer yearns for a return to Eretz Yisrael, how do you interpret that? How is that not about returning to the Land of Israel (country there or not)? You say Eretz Yisrael specifically, not Am Yisrael (you did say a few times you were praying to the People of Israel so maybe it's a miscommunication, assuming not though). I'm confused how you reconcile [praying to return to the land of Israel] with [being against the return to Israel].

If you can't explain that I understand but that's my sticking point with this whole thing. This is why I'm personally having trouble taking your arguments seriously. Hope to hear back, have a nice day/night.

i mean i pray to eretz and am. but to answer your question, medinat has no reason to exist. the geographical location of our holy land will always remain. we don’t need a jewish state to make it so

jews who yearn for the holy land have every right to want to return and to return. we don’t need medinat yisrael to do so

the other side of my argument points out a lot of the antisemitism in the palestinian charters. which yes they did go back on that, and yes there are still several antisemitic flaws in certain structures of their government as well. but that is something we could have pushed harder for. that is something we could’ve gotten the UN involved in. dividing up the land and expelling people was cruel and unnecessary to the people presently there

i hope that makes sense…

[rotzaprachim]

one of the lines between where antizionism becomes not just antisemitism but the socialism & decolonization of fools is when people extrapolate Zionism from being an regional-colonial ideology that justifies the colonization of Palestine (true) to being an international-imperialist ideology that seeks to control the world and oppressed them personally as non-Palestinian goyim in the west (not true, also leaning right into literal white nationalist slogans and ideas about the *zionist occupied government*) and places Zionism on the international stage as as central or even more powerful than the interests of American, russian, British, French (neo) colonialism in understanding How The World Works. This imho is behind a lot of the ideology that leads to violence and rage against Jews - even the local Jews must be in control of you, and or the economic systems keeping You down. Needless to say these ideologies are not only older than the state of Israel but older than Zionism itself and the violence carried out against Jews under the banner that they secretly were in Charge and needed to have their dirty ways cleansed for morally better people was a massive contributor to the context that has politically empowers Zionism to begin with. The positions of goyim from outside the levant against Zionism must be support for Palestinians and other Levantine peoples harmed by the regional-colonial apparatus of Zionism, not the idea that you feel that you, personally, and your countries in Europe, Asia, Latin America, and even the rest of the swana region are being actively controlled by Jews or by Zionists

[gynoidgearhead]

[Image caption: Eric Andre saying, while pointing a finger at the camera: "You do not need to bomb universities, bomb hospitals, bomb ambulances, in the name of Jewish safety. You do not need to bomb children in the name of Jewish safety." End caption.]

[worfsbarmitzvah]

the fact that ציון “tziyon”/“zion” and ישראל “yisrael”/“israel”, words that have been in our language, liturgy, and holy texts since before islam existed and before the romans drove us off our land and renamed it “syria palaestina,” have been twisted around to be used against us just really. hurts. especially with the way online leftists call medinat yisrael things like “isnotreal” like that is not your word to rearrange to insult the very people it describes (not just citizens of the modern state of israel but every single jewish person i.e. klal yisrael)

[aguineapigcouldntdothis]

how is saying "i believe jewish people have the right to live in and maintain a state in the land we're indigenous to" seen as a violent statement by antisemitic leftists, but "death to israel" isnt? i know it's probably something to do with how this sort of leftist views death as something that is either a) a noble action or b) something someone deserves. or it's death being used to mean eradication by someone who for some reason doesnt understand that destroying medinat israel would cause so much pain, suffering, and death.

whatever it is it's an awful thing to say and extremely ignorant. it shows that these people view other nations as toys and dont actually understand or care what destroying one would do to the citizens living there and likely citizens of surrounding nations. plus also either they understand that israel also can refer to the jewish people or they still havent learnt the differences between medinat, eretz, and am yisrael. im scared when someone says "death to israel" bc wanting to destroy the only jewish state is bad enough, and they could mean wanting to destroy the people of Israel as well. personally i dont wanna give people the benefit of the doubt when it endangers jewish lives

[historicity-was-already-taken]

Short question: Do you have any tips for turning "If you knew anything about the Holocaust, you'd know why we need Israel" from a conversation ender into a conversation starter? Longer context: I find it important, as a Jewish anarchist and anti-Zionist, to try my best to have hard conversations about safety and perceptions thereof with irl Jewish family, friends, and acquaintances. My politics make me an outlier in these spaces, as does my status as a convert, which I choose to be quite open about. I cannot begin to estimate how many people self-righteously cut short these conversations with "If you knew ANYTHING about [the Holocaust/antisemitism/generational trauma] you'd UNDERSTAND why we REALLY NEED [medinat yisrael/any jewish ethnostate/colonial zionism]". I'm under no illusion that I'm a scholar on the history of antisemitism or Jewish living patterns or the Levant or anything. I've taken one college-level course on Nazi Germany policy and beaucratic shit, but it intentionally dealt minimally with the pointy end of the death machine. I've taken two year-long Judaism 101 style classes, which of course dealt with the history of the Jewish people. I read relevant nonfiction, both books and essays. I also understand that being a convert gives me a very different personal history with the intergenerational trauma, and I want to be super respect of that. So overall I consider myself reasonably well informed, but I obviously can't respond to them with the "I know more than you" card. (Not that that would be a good way to handle it, but still.) I want to talk to people, who use this specific argumentative tactic, about what it means that our very legitimate traumas as a people led us to the point of producing our own little ethnostate (with a number of very paternalistic inputs from European nations of course). About how the shoah shaped modern zionism. About the biblical Joshua vs the archaeological evidence of that time period and what it means for our national/societal identities. About the haftarah in which israel demands a king and whether being just like the other nations has ever been lastingly good for literally anyone. But unanimously, people look at me like I'm the fool for going "yeah actually let's talk about history and fear and trauma and cultural legacies and (re)interpretation" instead of like. Applauding their sick burn about how clearly naïve I am. Do you, a Real Actual Holocaust Scholar, have a way to turn that "obviously you know nothing" accusation into a productive conversation? If so can you please share because I am losing my mind over here.

NOTE TO READERS: I'm going to speak frankly about stuff that goes down in the American Jewish community, as a lifelong and active MEMBER of that community. This is not fodder for any of your anti-Semitic bullshit and I'm deeply uninterested in Gentile Thoughts on what I'm about to write. You do not have my consent to weaponize anything you read here against Jews you encounter here, or elsewhere, regardless of their politics.

Oof ok. I have some answers, but you may not like them. First, politics within the Jewish community. I love that you're a convert and I respect your dedication and hard work; I'm sure you know much more about the Jewish faith than I do. However, as you know, Judaism is both a religion and an ethnic group/identity. And there are a lot of religious and secular Jews who chafe at the feeling of being told how they should and should not feel about Israel by a convert who does not share our heritage and experience of intergenerational trauma. Especially if they're over 60.

I also want to tell you that when members of our community, particularly individuals over 60 years of age, have their minds made up about Israel, Zionism, etc, they're not interested in valid historical takes from experts. Their minds are made up and they reject any information counter to their stance, and attack the person providing them with the info. I've been personally attacked here and elsewhere by our people for bringing up historical and archaeological issues which run counter to their arguments. I've had my intellect and education and abilities mocked, while I'm out here voluntarily traumatizing myself through my dedication to the study of Holocaust history.

Another issue, is that Jewish history is deeply interwoven in our observance, faith, and heritage. This gives individuals involved at various levels with the Jewish community the idea that they Know Jewish History. They don't. They know a version of the Jewish past specifically constructed by and within our communal spaces; see Zakhor by Hayim Yerushalmi. And a lot of them, especially if they're a man over 50 and you're a woman who reads as young, get real nasty if you assert vaster and more accurate knowledge. It's kind of similar to how people in our communities think that they Know Holocaust History because they read Night and Grandma was a survivor. But those things don't mean that they know Holocaust history--it means they've engaged with two first-hand accounts.

I'm going to advise you to stop trying with these people. I know that's not the answer you want, and I'm really sorry about that. But, the types of people you're engaging with are so deeply traumatized and set in their own defensive views, that they would never listen to me, a Jewish granddaughter of Holocaust refugees and academically trained Holocaust historian. And if they won't listen to me, they sure as hell won't listen to someone they view as an outsider to the Jewish historical experience.

You'd be better off engaging members of your community who are still learning and figuring everything out, discussing your views as equals who are learning from one another, and putting your energies towards Jewish organizations who do not need convincing of your perspective.

ETA: this is something that will only likely change over the course of generations. the traumas of the holocaust are still fresh and living in the minds of survivors, their Baby Boomer children, and their millennial grandchildren; and I'm saying that as one of those millennial grandchildren. The trauma-induced view that Israel is our shield against the Holocaust ever happening again will not change because of anything you or I might say. It will only begin to fade into new paradigms of thought when we are many more years removed from living memory of those events.

[gynoidgearhead]

[Image description for original post: several line items, from top to bottom: "Trans rights"; "abortion access"; "environmental reform"; "healthcare reform"; "prescription reform"; "student loan forgiveness"; "infrastructure funding"; "advocating racial equality"; "Diversity, Equality, and Inclusion"; "vaccines and public health"; "criminal justice reform"; "military support to Israel"; "Israel/Hamas ceasefire". All of these are checked in Biden's case, and all but "military support to Israel" are X'ed out in Trump's case. End caption.]

Look.

I have made you a chart. A very simple chart.

People say "You have to draw the line somewhere, and Biden has crossed it-" and my response is "Trump has crossed way more lines than Biden".

These categories are based off of actual policy enacted by both of these men while they were in office.

If the ONLY LINE YOU CARE ABOUT is line 12, you have an incredible amount of privilege, AND YOU DO NOT CARE ABOUT PALESTINIANS. You obviously have nothing to fear from a Trump presidency, and you do not give a fuck if a ceasefire actually occurs. You are obviously fine if your queer, disabled, and marginalized loved ones are hurt. You clearly don't care about the status of American democracy, which Trump has openly stated he plans to destroy on day 1 he is in office.

[hachama]

Quick vocabulary lesson for anyone who might be confused

Medinat Yisrael =/= eretz Yisrael =/= am Yisrael

Am Yisrael Chai means "the people Israel lives," the Jewish people, descendants of Yisrael. Jacob/Yaakov was renamed Yisrael after wrestling with the angel.

Eretz Yisrael is a reference to the land and the biblical kingdom(s).

Medinat Yisrael is the modern state.

These are three different things that overlap but do not mean the same things. There are members of Am Yisrael living in Medinat Yisrael, and there are parts of Eretz Yisrael within the borders of Medinat Yisrael.

[germiyahu]

If someone derails your conversation about Israel to be about Israel's treatment of this or that group, Mizrachim, Beta Israel, etc. you may just want to consider their motivations, and do a little digging into the kinds of subjects they normally talk about on their own blogs.

If someone who has staunchly antizionist views, like I'm talking thinly veiled genocidal fantasies about destroying Israel and reveling in the chaos that would bring, and having no concern for the future of 7 millions Jews, their concerns about Medinat Yisrael's treatment of minority groups are not valid.

This is Concern Trolling.

If someone is derailing you to accuse Israel, through accusing you, of sterilizing Ethiopian women, stealing Mizrachi babies and having them raised by "white" parents, trying to destroy Yiddish, all these alleged violent assimilationist policies that Israel employs against fellow Jews?

A non Jew barging into your space and bringing up intra-community issues and grievances is a red flag. Do not fall for the sealioning trap. Do not turn out your pockets. Do not fall for the concern trolling.

Because what is their solution to these problems? To eliminate Israel as a state? And what about these minority groups within Israeli society then? Their answer is the same as their answer for the Ashkenazim: who cares? They largely imagine all Israeli Jews can simply move to the United States or France or something. The fact that over 95% of Israelis cannot just go to the countries of their parents or grandparents is of no concern to them.

That's why it's concern trolling. They're trolling you by pretending to be concerned, and baiting you into discussing an intra-community issue because they think that'll be the argument that finally gets you to disavow Israel. Because now you'll have no choice but to agree Israel is irredeemably problematic, because now it affects other Jews. So they are exhibiting a kind of bitterly envious brand of antisemitism. They think that all Jews believe in Jewish supremacy. They're quite mad about it. This is an aspect of the Chosen People canard.

But the main reason concern trolling is bad is because they don't care about these groups they bring up. They're not defending them, they're not championing their rights. They're trying to distract you and make you look like a hypocrite. When they cheer for Hamas raping and pillaging and spraying bullets into Israelis, they don't care if it happens to Beta Israel women who've supposedly been mass sterilized against their will. They cheer all the same. So much for their legitimate concerns that Israel is antisemitic in of itself I guess?

If the solution to a problem faced by a minority group within a country is "destroy their country which they also believe has saved them from ethnic cleansing and mass death, and figure out the rest later," you're not an ally to that group; stop pretending you are!

This is tied into pinkwashing, but from a sort of opposite approach. If any societal progress that Israel makes for minority groups is a psyop and a marketing ploy to cover up Palestinian Genocide, the concern trolling is antizionists holding Israel hostage to any societal progress it has not made. But they never intend on letting Israel improve these relationships. Israel is too nice to gay Jews, and not nice enough to African Jews. The only course of action therefore, is to let Hamas butcher them alongside straight Jews and "European" Jews.

So if you see someone trying to engage in this game, ignore them! Your time is worth so much more, and the vulnerable minority groups of Jews (both in Israel and the Diaspora) are much safer with Jews who discriminate against them than goyim who tout social justice rhetoric but want to see them dead. Plus, so many Jews are already doing the work, learning and listening, and trying to improve. This enrages the concern trolls like nothing else.

Call out Israel's bigotries, but you know, maybe don't trust the people who aren't affected by those bigotries invading your space and demanding your allyship to groups of people they'd be content seeing die en masse. Like "Israel is actually antisemitic against this vulnerable group of Jews!" and "All Israelis are settlers, none are truly civilians, and any form of violence against settlers is justified" are two stances that do not mesh very well...

Because at the very least, they're separating good Jews from bad Jews again, just based on what they perceive intra-Jewish oppression to be like. And they expect these good Jews to cheer and happily live as dhimmis in the absolute chaos that is a 100% inevitable Hamas-Fatah civil war and total societal collapse... and spit on the graves of their kinsmen.

And at worst, the concern trolls won't bother distinguishing these vulnerable Jews from their alleged oppressors anyway, and happily watch as they all flee with the clothes on their backs or get gunned down or enslaved by Hamas "Resistance" Fighters.

[feygaleh]

i do believe that jews have the right to live in the holy land. i just don’t believe the STATE of medinat yisrael is necessary for that to happen.

i do believe that jews have the right to self-determination. i just don’t believe that evicting and bombing people out of what was eretz yisrael is necessary at all. “israel” as a state is a new concept. we even used to refer to it as “palestine” in many texts bc they established their country there.

the location of medinat yisrael is not necessary at all. there were SEVERAL locations being considered when establishing a jewish state. we did not need to build it on top of a pre-established civilization just bc it “used” to be our holy land. if you want to live in the holy land just live there.

none of this is necessary. the location of medinat yisrael is not necessary. medinat yisrael could have been anywhere without diminishing the meaning of eretz yisrael. this is hopefully my final piece on the matter. we could have had two homelands. it’s not hard to grasp a diasporic solution.

[gynoidgearhead]

Okay, like, if we're singling anything out as the reason that the right keeps winning elections, obviously that dishonor goes to voter suppression and unfair electoral schemas. But otherwise, this.

You cannot vote for there being no POTUS. Voting for a vacancy is not an option afforded to us. Given that: find the least harmful choice, no matter how narrow the difference seems.

(obviously if you are affected by the aforementioned voter suppression, this post shouldn't imply you're wrong for not voting in that case and for that reason)

The thing that gets me about people complaining about "vote-shaming" and about needing to be convinced to vote, both in general and specifically for Biden, is that so many of those people are committed to not accepting arguments in favor. You can point out Biden and his administration passing more LGBTQ protections, or the Inflation Reduction Act, or numerous other actions, and it's never enough - nothing outweighs the negatives, in their minds.

And then when you point out the consequences and results of *not* voting for Democrats and Biden, it's also not enough and you're now shaming or pressuring people and not presenting a positive argument. It's so convenient.