#major adrien salt

[fernsnouveau]

I did not want Adrien and his abuse survivor arc to be reduced to a secondary tug-war object in a conflict that's actually all about Maribug and Lila, which is now what's going to happen if it ever does come up, now that Adrien was forcibly ejected out of his own character arc when it was actually happening.

So now that the season 5 finale has aired, and Adrien still didn't get to find out anything about his father, I've been seeing people theorize that Adrien will learn everything next season, but that he'll be learning it from Lila.

While I do think that that outcome would be better than him never learning anything, I don't think it would be satisfying either, and for a few reasons.

A) If Adrien isn't going to learn about Gabriel's true nature on his own, he should at least learn it from his Marinette, Emilie (or is she Amilie now?), or Natalie.

He should be told with kindness, and I believe that the people who claim to love him have a responsibility to be honest with him. Hearing it from anyone else, Lila especially, will hurt him more. Could be good for the drama of it all, I guess, but I don't want drama for drama's sake, I want character growth.

B) Lila being the one to tell him anything could be, intentionally or unintentionally, the show continuing to frame his learning the truth as a bad thing, as it would be portrayed as an act of cruelty and manipulation from an enemy, while his family and girlfriend, the people "with his best interest at heart", would be framed as in the right for having kept secrets, because "See, see?? Look how much the truth hurt him!"

C) Adrien learning anything after his father is dead and gone denies him the chance to confront him, or stand up for himself in any meaningful capacity, which gives him, and us the audience, no real closure.

What is Adrien supposed to do once he knows? Cataclysm a statue, while he has to mull over everything he would have said to him, knowing that there's no one to say it to? Or just ignore it, pretend it doesn't matter? Just say "all's well that ends well" even though everything around him is based on a lie?

Or maybe he just never finds out.

No matter where they go from here, I honestly just won't be satisfied. To me, i think the window for Adrien's true Good End is closed.

[nobodyfamousposts]

Do you think people cling on too much to Adrien's high road advice as a reason to salt on him?

Yes, especially when there are plenty of other reasons to salt him that have previously been ignored. But to that end, it DOES serve as the final straw for people after a SERIES of problems that had previously gone unaddressed.

Much like many aspects of the show, Adrien has displayed problematic behaviors that have been overlooked and waved off in the earlier seasons. This is likely or especially due to the way how in each and every incident, Adrien was narratively shown to be correct. In his stance. In his choices. In his behaviors. He was always right. It doesn't matter if he shouldn't be, because he is.

Now unless you're a hater or anti or salter or whatever negative name people tend to get for not liking a story as it's presented, readers and watchers tend to follow along with the narrative as it presents things and how it presents things. It's a common setup in any story. Protagonist Centered Morality, I feel framed best by Susan in the Discord series:

Susan: ...and then Jack chopped down the beanstalk, adding murder and ecological vandalism to the theft, enticement and trespass charges already mentioned, but he got away with it and lived happily ever after without so much as a guilty twinge about what he had done. Which proves that you can be excused anything if you're a hero, because no one asks inconvenient questions.

Pretty much this. Most people will follow what the narrative says because it's the narrative. If the narrative wants you to focus on Marinette being embarrassed, you're going to focus on how much she's cringe. And if the narrative wants you to view Adrien as a perfect sunshine boy who never does anything wrong, anything he does is going to be framed through that lens and it's difficult to break from that view and call out the times when he is wrong. Not unless he does something particularly severe.

It should be noted that outside of Chameleon, Adrien had, among other things: lied to his partner, caused someone to get akumatized and had his partner take the blame, was messing around during life-threatening and city-threatening situations, did nothing as Chloe tormented people right in front of him, DEFENDED Chloe after she tormented people right in front of him, bailed on an event with friends to set up a date with someone who said she had other plans and then got mad at HER for it, tried to flirt or confess in the middle of an active crisis which took necessary attention away from said crisis, caused himself AND his partner to get hit by akuma powers and needlessly be taken out of commission.

And yet people could mostly overlook these instances. They weren't his fault. Chloe is his friend. Marinette is worse. He's just a kid. He has a tragic backstory. So on and so forth. Easy to overlook. Easy to ignore in favor of the Sunshine Boy setup people were given and want to believe in.

But there were three major instances that really grabbed people's attention and stayed:

His attitude in Frozer. It probably wouldn't have been so bad except this rejection already happened in Glaciator, where he was supposed to have learned a lesson and accepted just being Ladybug's friend and now apparently didn't, despite it happening earlier that very season. Then in response, he decides to date Kagami as a rebound, drags Marinette with him on his date (without realizing how he's asking his friend to be a third wheel on a DATE) and focuses on her when he's supposed to be with Kagami, throws another tantrum in the middle of an akuma fight and refuses to work with his partner when the city is literally frozen, and requires Ladybug to apologize to him for hurting his feelings before he finally working with her. Again. But okay, he's a teenage boy in love. Not used to rejection and got his feelings hurt. Lovesquare is endgame so of course it'll work out anyway, so it's not like this bump in the road is really going to matter long term so we shouldn't hold it against him. Fine. Dumb, but fine. We've forgiven it in other shows and other poorly done teen romances, we can forgive it here.

His behavior in Syren in which he demanded to know secrets from people when the secrets were not theirs to tell him, and went so far as to attempt to blackmail his kwami (which was funny) and threaten to quit and abandon the Ring that the big bad is after while the city is flooded and people were trying to not drown (which was decidedly less humorous). But it was played for wholesome when Plagg reassured him and he got what he wanted by Fu revealed himself even if Adrien did nothing to actually show he earned it, so all's well that ends well, I guess? And people could justify it because "they're partners" and "part of a team" and "she should trust him" and "it's not fair he's the only one left out of the loop" and "he has a right to know" and just general "Fu is an idiot" (which is admittedly hard to argue). So people were disgruntled, but most were willing to overlook it.

His holier than thou lecture to Marinette in Maledictator over everyone being happy Chloe was leaving. When all Marinette was doing at the time was watching everyone else have fun. When Adrien specifically guilted Marinette and not any of the other actual partiers involved who were literally throwing a party over his friend leaving and probably should have warranted a lecture more than the girl just standing there. When the girl in question was also Chloe's main target and out of everyone had valid reasons to be happy that her bully won't be around to bully her anymore. When Adrien himself has historically been present to witness Marinette being targeted including twice he witnessed Chloe attempt to steal from Marinette, once he witnessed her try to blackmail Marinette, and numerous other times when she actively caused harm to Marinette and others. When Adrien then proceeded to sit in a corner and pout rather than do anything else or just leave if the party really bothered him. When Adrien, if he really cared so damn much, could have gone after Chloe himself! Or y'know...have stood up for Chloe earlier when she got upset in the first place. But fine, okay, Chloe is his childhood friend. So maybe he's just being biased and oblivious to the fact that his "friend" is a horrible person. But people can excuse and justify it in that they are friends and friends support each other, and the longer someone is friends with someone else, the harder it is to break from them. And that Marinette was probably just the target of his lecture because she was the one there in the moment (and the only one who would listen without arguing). And her calling Chloe useless was "mean" despite it being quite frankly the least of what she could have said about her in the moment (coughcough theft cough blackmail cough punished the entire school cough TRIED TO CRASH A TRAIN AND NEARLY KILLED HER AND HER PARENTS COUGH-FREAKINGCOUGH). Fine. Childhood friend means Adrien supports her in all her horrible and even deadly actions. Frustrating, but again, able to be explained and you can see where he's coming from.

These are all things that definitely got Adrien some side eye at best and some detractors at worst.

BUT if you really think about it, all of these examples are objectively worse than his lecture to Marinette in Chameleon. Not accepting being told "no" and continuing to chase a girl who isn't that in to him (while leading on another). Putting lives at risk over personal wants that could quite honestly wait until AFTER the crisis is over. Defending someone who is harmful and guilt tripping the victims. Compared to those, telling someone to leave a liar to their lying seems relatively minor.

So why this? Why here? Why is it Chameleon that has people saying enough is enough? Why is it this episode that is causing the sunshine boy to be so tarnished and the subject of salt in fan fiction?

Because this is the time when it couldn't be rationalized. There wasn't even a valid sensible canon-based reason for his stance. The arguments that Adrien "knew confronting her wouldn't work" or that he "handled her like paparazzi" or that he "knew Marinette previously failed when she tried" (even though he wasn't there and didn't know) or that he "didn't think anyone would believe him" don't come from canon. Those were fan arguments made after the fact to justify him after the base was broken and the outcry became too much to ignore.

This case didn't have any of the ties or rationales of the previous incidents. Adrien wasn't defending himself or his place in a partnership. He wasn't fighting for his love or his dream or an outcome he wanted and that we all knew was coming—if anything, he was fighting against her. He wasn't defending a friend like he did with Chloe—I mean, it's pretty evident he doesn't even really know or like Lila at this point, and for all intents and purposes, this is apparently only the second day he actually had any interaction with her. There was no notable reason Adrien really had for why he essentially chose to protect Lila over literally anyone else as she wasn't a friend and it wasn't in his interests to protect her from a consequence that wouldn't hurt her short term as much as it would likely harm everyone else long term.

And yet, he still defended her and her freedom to lie. Over Marinette. Over Ladybug. Over his friends. Over any sense of right and wrong he seems to have no problem throwing around when it comes to Marinette/Ladybug. Which seems like he targets her 9 times out of 10 compared to pretty much anyone else by this point. So it's little wonder then that people who didn't already hate the lovesquare because of the cringe factor from Marinette started to hate it for being incredibly unhealthy given that their relatively limited interactions tend to involve him lecturing her for failing to live up to his double standards that only seem to apply to her in any given situation.

This incident by itself doesn't seem like much, but when looked at as part of the series as a whole, it's when people couldn't keep overlooking this trend. Where he seems to admonish the wrong person. Where he acts like a mouthpiece rather than a person. Talks like he’s wise in a situation he seems to have a childish and one-sided view of. Acts like a brat but is treated as though he has no accountability in the situation he causes. Where he is wrong but no one and certainly not the narrative acknowledges it (not until season five and two seasons too late when it doesn't matter and he's still not the one facing consequences for it).

And it's not like he actually follows the stances he himself promotes. In Chameleon, canon presents him with this idealistic stance that Lila could change if given a chance, except he doesn't give her a chance. He doesn't push her to be a better person. He doesn't support or in any way help her to be the better person he insisted to Marinette she could be. He also doesn't do anything or warn anyone when she keeps lying and actively harms the people he says he cares about. He doesn't do anything one way or the other other than some lackluster encouragement to stop lying and a warning that goes nowhere. It just further gives credit to the argument that Adrien either simply doesn't care about other people, or that he doesn't care for Marinette specifically. Neither is conducive to the lovesquare or the increasingly tarnished view of the "sunshine boy".

And it could have worked. Canonically and intrinsically to his character. His idealism and trust in the wrong person comes back to bite him. He learns and grows from it. Except that, much like with nearly everything he does in canon, Chameleon set it up that Adrien was the writers' mouthpiece and thus was not "wrong". I'll grant that they did have him admit it and apologize to Marinette for it two seasons later, but it is pretty evident that during Chameleon, they intended his lecture to be right, with no foreshadowing and no implication otherwise. And I'm fairly certain they only backtracked and had him do that much because of the amount of fan outrage over the episode.

So yes, I think his lecture in Chameleon was really a final straw since unlike Chloe, Adrien has NO relationship with Lila to justify his defense of her. Especially when the argument is in favor of letting her lie to the people he's supposed to care about. That combined with how jarring it was how most of the class just sided with Lila over the seat issue in the first place, and I think people were less inclined to just ignore the problems in the episode specifically and with the series as a whole as they were compared to the first and second seasons. Not just with Adrien, as we see that Alya also started getting more callout and salt since then as well as more retrospective scrutiny over her behavior in earlier seasons.

But yeah...Chameleon was where things seemed to take a 180, so it's bound to be the deciding episode and deciding incident that sticks out in people's minds with these characters. That's probably why it ends up the go-to for salt and complaints on the characters involved instead of any of the other incidents that would arguably warrant it more.

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

When I first saw a Miraculous Ladybug salt post it was the usual Lila takes away all of Marinette's friends Adrien does nothing Marinette becomes super successful Lila gets exposed blah blah blah

When I see posts like the ones you post where people give actual constructive criticism about the characters and not favor one character over the other has made me realize that these are fictional characters and its not their fault they are the way they are. Also they're 14 what kind of 14 year old makes good choice's? Especially when they have the fate of the world/universe on their shoulders

If anything the character I really blame is Master Fu. He was obviously meant to be some sort of mentor figure for them or at least Marinette's mentor. He was the one to tell and encourage Marinette to keep everything a secret from Adrien. Comparing him to other mentor like figures in the world of superheros he isn't really all that helpful.

Compared to DC Ladybug and Chat Noir do not have any adult superheros to help them. In DC younger superheros have entire superhero families to help them out and if not that than they have other adult superheros to help them or they have an actual team. We know that other miraculous holders exist and the order is back I have a vague idea as to why they can't help but I still find it weird as to why they are around if not to help. Like phones and the internet exist do they not?

Sorry for they rant, I want to know what your thoughts are on this?

Your rant was fine! I don't think that I've talked in depth about mentors as a concept and I should both because I love mentors and because Miraculous has completely failed to give us any good ones. This is a writing failure not because good mentors are required, but because the show chose to have mentors characters and then not use them.

Before I get into the topic at large, I want to start with a brief discussion of mentors in shows aimed at young children as Miraculous' intended audience is young children and that fact is worth keeping in mind when discussing what Miraculous did wrong and some of the ways that you can fix it.

Shows aimed at kids generally avoid adult characters in major roles for the very obvious reason that the intended audience is kids, so you want the kid and teen characters to be the stars. This doesn't mean that adults aren't allowed to save the day or have important roles. It just means that they should be used sparingly. This is why mentors are a great addition to kids shows. They allow adult characters to be deeply involved with the plot without anyone expecting them to intervene because that's not their role in the story. They're not here to be the hero. They're here to guide the hero.

One of the powerful things about this setup is that it allows the writers to give the real kids watching at home real advice about real life problems. For example, if Marinette comes to Fu to talk about feeling alone and overwhelmed, then he can give her real, practical advice that would apply to anyone who is feeling alone and overwhelmed, but no one expects him to directly intervene because he's supposed to say hidden.

A lot of these elements apply to mentors in media aimed at older audiences, the rules just apply for different reasons, so I'm going to stop reminding you that Miraculous is for elementary school kids and focus on the failed mentor issue as it would be an issue no matter what Miraculous' intended audience was.

When it comes to bad mentoring, a lot of people focus on Fu and I get why. At first glance, he's the classic wise old Asian man who is supposed to be there to guide the protagonist on her mystical journey (not getting into the racism issue here, just know that I'm aware of it and that Miraculous dropped the ball on this in a lot of ways even though they absolutely could have made it work.) But Fu isn't the main focus of my ire because, while the writers seemed to have designed him around the mystic Asian trope, they never actually wrote him like a mentor.

He doesn't train Marinette and Adrien in the ways of the miraculous. He just sneakily gives them their miraculous and then disappears from their lives for quite some time. So he's not around to get them properly started on their hero journey. That's strike one for the mentor role.

Strike two is the fact that we never actually see him mentoring Marinette. I don't think that she ever went to him for advice? If she did, then it wasn't a big element of their relationship. When I think of Marinette and Fu, I picture her going to him to grab a miraculous or two before booking it back to the ongoing fight and that's about it. The guardian training she supposedly had was all off screen, so we have no idea how close they were or what he even taught her outside of potion making. Even that wasn't really him teaching her something. It was them working together to figure out a puzzle because Fu never completed his own training, making it impossible for him to properly train a successor.

Strike three is the fact that - outside of the King Monkey incident - Fu never gets directly involved in helping team miraculous. He's never gives them feedback on fights or works with Ladybug and Chat Noir to strengthen their bond. He doesn't even help them track down the two missing miraculous or hand out the temporary miraculous on Marinette's behalf, a choice I still find super weird. "This fight is super hard and we need help, so I'm going to leave Chat Noir to fight alone while I go get said help!" is absolutely nonsense logic and one of the many examples of the writers desperately needing to let Marinette hand her responsibilities off. Why wasn't this Fu's job?

This brings us to fix one: if you want the guardian to be a mentor - which is a role they arguably should have - then the guardian needs to be actively involved in Marinette and Adrien's lives in an on screen way. For this to work in the context of Miraculous - a show that really wants to focus on the teen characters - then the guardian probably needs a teenage apprentice who isn't Marinette and that apprentice will be the one doing the mentoring.

My pick for this is Luka for two big reasons. The first one is that his calm personality is perfectly suited to a mentor. The second one is that it seems insane to me to have the snake be a temp holder. The snake should be watching every fight, but staying out of the actual fight so that they can use their power whenever it's needed. That's the perfect role for a mentor character to fill. Someone who is active in the plot, but only ever as a support because their power stops them from getting more involved.

Moving on to the bigger issue.

As I said up above, Fu doesn't actually get my ire. While I wanted him to be a mentor, he never once filled that role and he didn't really need to because the show already had mentor figures that it was actively using and using poorly. Those figures are the ancient magical creatures that follow our heroes around, dispensing terrible advice whenever they feel like it. That's right, as much as it pains me, Miraculous' biggest mentor failures are Tikki and Plagg.

The miraculous did not need to have magical creatures associated with them. They could have just been magical jewelry that Fu handed out and explained. Instead, the writers chose to give us the Kwamis and I don't disagree with that choice. I like the Kwmais! The problem is that they're used in the most lackluster, asinine ways you possibly could.

The Kwamis are not presented as oblivious to the world and unable to give advice. They give lots of advice! The problem is that advice tends to suck! I can think of many examples of times where the Kwamis made everything worse, but let's look at the one that grinds my gears the most: Plagg's actions in season four.

In Rocketear - the episode where Nino gives Adrien an incredibly inaccurate picture of why he knows Alya's secret identity - we get this:

Adrien: I still can't believe Ladybug entrusted Alya and Nino with those Miraculous. Plagg: Of course she did. She's the Guardian. Adrien: But they're a couple and they know each other's secret identities. Plagg: So...? Adrien: So, why does she make it a rule that we can't know each other's identities but it's okay for them? Plagg: She's the Guardian, the Grandmaster Cheese Ripener, and you and I are just cheese on the platter. She decides what's on the menu.

Hey, Plagg, maybe don't tell your clearly upset and vulnerable teenage holder to just suck it up and deal with it when he's feeling alone and betrayed? Maybe encourage him to talk to Ladybug about his feelings so that he can get the full story? Knowing that they learned their identities during the Scarlet Moth incident would probably do a lot to smooth over Adrien's hurt feelings.

What's even more rich is that the episode Kuro Neko lets Plagg go off on Marinette for not appreciating Chat Noir:

Ladybug: What's gotten into him? I didn't do anything. Plagg: Didn't do anything? Well yeah, you did! You've been neglecting a very classy piece of camemebert on your plate for too long! And as a result it got runny, and moldy! Ladybug: What? Cat Noir never gave me any camembert. Plagg: Of course not, Cat Noir is the camembert! For a while now, you've been neglecting this camembert— I mean Cat Noir, and going on adventures with the all other cheeses! Ladybug: But he should be happy about it, it gives him more time off. Plagg: Cat Noir doesn't wanna have time off, Ladybug! He is in love with you! And your persistent calling on all the other heroes has broken his heart.

Dude, if you saw all of this going on, then why didn't you say something??? You and Tikki are in the same location for multiple hours five days a week. Go tell her how your holder is feeling and figure out how to fix the situation! Or be an actual mentor and encourage Adrien to talk to someone about his feelings! At the very least, cut up a wheel of cheese, sit down, and listen to your kid so that he feels less alone!

Also what exactly do you want Ladybug to do to fix the problem you presented? Let Paris burn until Chat Noir decides to show up to today's fight? Refuse to use the temp heroes even if it means losing a fight? None of those are valid solutions when the problem presented in the episode is Chat Noir missing fights. Especially when we know that he's doing it on purpose. Why are you yelling at her instead of working with her to come up with an actual solution? You are such a terrible mentor...

To be clear, I don't think any of this is intentional. I don't think the writers want Plagg and Tikki to come across as actively hurting their teenage charges via bad advice. I think Plagg and Tikki are supposed to be seen as good and helpful, but they can't fill that role because they're tools of the narrative and the narrative has really wacky views on what good advice is. Thus nonsense like the example I discussed above or Plagg and Tikki picking new holders instead of guiding their holders through an identity reveal.

I personally adore letting Plagg and Tikki be good mentors in my own stuff. It falls under the same category as Alya and Nino being terrible friends on screen. I acknowledge the problem and then delight in fixing it by writing the exact opposite setup because what is fanfiction for if not heavy self indulgence?

[flightfoot]

Could you rec some love square #protect Adrien# (without Lila or Chloe salt)?<3

So I'm assuming from the "#protect adrien" that you're wanting Love Square fic where Adrien gets comfort and protection from Gabriel's abuse? Hopefully these fics scratch your itch!

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No Mistakes, No Pressure by ChaoticAce2005

Mlss gift for @nagisa_Chan Perfect. That’s what Adrien Agreste is supposed to be. The perfect model. The perfect son. The perfect student. But there’s one major flaw in all of this: Adrien himself isn’t. How can you constantly play roles demanding perfection without fault? The answer is you can’t. Eventually something has to give. And everyone is starting to get worried that the thing that will give is Adrien himself. Or: Basically Adrien starts to crumble because of all the expectations people put on him, and it’s starting to affect every aspect of his life. This is his journey of acknowledging the fact that perfection isn’t possible and that it’s okay to lean on others.

I really love the emphasis on how Adrien thinks of himself as a product here, that he has different "modes" or "editions" that he becomes, like a doll having different versions, and then slowly beginning to get better with the help of his friends. It really captures how he's been objectified, and how, thankfully, his friends are able to help him with that.

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A Child's Love by jaron5

This takes place post-Hack-San. Ladybug hands Chat Noir a potion she brewed which accidentally turns him into a kid without any of his memories. How is she going to keep an eye on a miniature Chat Noir while trying to keep their secret identities intact? Or the more pressing concern- how will she preserve her sanity when faced with the overwhelming cuteness and innocence that is her now de-aged partner?

I loved this fic, it's adorable and heart-wrenching. Adrien doesn't understand what's going on, but he still enjoys being around Marinette and the rest of his friends, and they just keep on hearing more and more little things that make them increasingly worried about Chat Noir's childhood.

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The Man of Mind Alone by @nemaliwrites

Underneath the taste of ingredients — the chocolate, the lemon, the butter — there’s something hidden, something larger and darker. As though his mouth is filling with the taste of smallness, the sensation of pain, of shrinking, of upset. A taste that he somehow knows is connected to his mother. -- Seven defining foods of Adrien Agreste's life.

So this was a fascinating fic. Basically, Adrien has this ability to taste the emotions people feel while they cook whenever he eats their food, gets to know them a lot better. Which can be a problem if the person cooking is really sad or angry or hateful. I love seeing how he navigates his ability, since it can cause a lot of problems - if he eats something by someone who was feeling nasty things, it can be traumatizing to him, and there's a bit of an invasion of privacy aspect as well.

Of course, he could cook for himself, but then he'd have to confront his own feelings, his own self, and he's scared.

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A Body Without Spirit by @nemaliwrites

“Look, I don’t know much about you guys, but I always hear other humans whining about how they have to listen to their parents or their teachers or bosses or whatever.” “Yes,” says Marinette, “but that’s…that’s different. Usually, when someone tells me to do something, I only do it if I want to. I can think about it, make a real decision. But this…it was like I didn’t even have time to think about it. Like I couldn’t resist, even if I wanted to. And if I did, it would have killed me.” -- Adrien and Marinette swap bodies. Marinette does not have a good time.

I love how this examined how it feels to be controlled by an Amok, especially by someone who's never felt it before, who knows something's not right, that this isn't just psychological, but doesn't know what's causing the inability to disobey orders. And it means that Marinette really, truly understands why Adrien can't disobey now, not just on a mental level, but through experience.

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with this ring by @thelibraryloser

She thought “you and me against the world” had sounded like lopsided odds before, when she hadn’t even dreamed “you against me” was a possibility. Or maybe she had dreamed it, but at least in those dreams he’d had cold blue eyes and a stark white mask. The villain she’d fought today had looked at her through her partner’s own bright green eyes. It wasn’t meant to be this way.

Short and sweet Sentiadrien enemies canon divergence fic here! I adored Marinette finding out why her kitty seemed to have “betrayed” her, and the righteous anger on his behalf once she figured out that it wasn’t of his own free will. Her comforting Adrien about it was just… really good. It’s a Hawkmoth Defeat fic too, so the immediate aftermath gets covered as well. Adrien needs a hug.

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what makes a human (am I?) by GraceM_TheStoriedLife

Adrien comes to Marinette’s out of nowhere. Usually Chat is her rock. Tonight, it’s her turn. (Or, in which Adrien discovers some secrets he’s not prepared for and Marinette is as Marinette-y as always.

So Adrien discovers he’s a sentimonster and immediately runs to Marinette for support. It’s as cute and angsty as you’d expect. She is, of course, very supportive of him. Also some discussion of Gabriel being abusive, since both she and Nino had been trying to get Adrien to see that. Especially with how, exactly, Adrien found out he’s a sentimonster. He can relate a little better to Felix’s experiences now than is healthy, I’ll just say.

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The Parable of the Caller by @nemaliwrites

A week after Hawk Moth’s identity has been revealed, Adrien finds himself with nowhere to go, nothing he can do, and worst of all, strange gaps in his memory he can’t explain. In a stroke of luck, he stumbles upon a burner phone filled with voicemails from one of the Saviors of Paris: Chat Noir himself, who disappeared following Hawk Moth’s arrest.

But with each new voicemail Adrien listens to, he’s forced to confront the fact that there might be some kind of connection between himself and Chat Noir — and discovering it might leave him more broken than before.

I absolutely adore this fic, it’s a fantastic character study for Adrien! Basically in this universe, Ladybug and Chat Noir talked about who should be Guardian, with Chat eventually convincing her that he should be the one to take it on, primarily due to the whole “the Guardian gets amnesia about Miraculous-related matters” situation, and wanting to protect Ladybug from that. Then he finds out Gabriel is Hawk Moth, they take him down, and he relinquishes the Miracle Box and his guardianship to Su Han - all without having a Reveal with Ladybug, since well, he’s not in the greatest shape mentally at the time.

It’s a real treat to see Adrien’s thoughts and feelings about one of the Heroes of Paris leaving him all these voicemails, treating him like this close friend for reasons he doesn’t understand, and just seeing Chat Noir as this outside person. He’s got a very different viewpoint on Chat when looking from the outside than he would from the inside, with being able to see his heroic and good qualities far more easily when he doesn’t know that he is Chat.

Also Marinette’s struggling in the background of the fic with the loss of her partner and guilt over sending Adrien’s father to prison. It gets touched on at various points, and you can tell that she’s having her own story off to the side that we’re just not entirely privy to, what with this tale being told entirely from Adrien’s perspective.

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drowning (in plain sight) by @buggachat

Everybody had expected Monarch's defeat to be a moment of triumph. Nobody had expected Gabriel Agreste, unmasked and mind frayed from continual abuse of the miraculous, crying out to all who would listen and making Paris certain of one thing:

His son, Adrien Agreste, is one of his sentimonsters.

And now he's missing.

Nobody can find him— not even the superheroes, and not even his closest friends. But Marinette, Nino, and Alya aren't ones to give up so easily. They'll find him, no matter what it takes.

(But, geez, would it kill Chat Noir to lend a hand?)

I’m sure everyone saw this one coming. If there’s one thing buggachat’s good at, storywise, it’s capturing raw, tumultuous emotions, frantic breakdowns as the characters desperately try to navigate bad situations. This was a real treat to read, as I’m betting most people reading this will agree, given just how popular the fic has been. It also has a ton of fanart, both by buggachat and by random fans, if you go looking for it (there’s a drowning in plain sight tag which I’d advise perusing). 

---

Eventually by @lucid-ao3

Adrien’s life has been dictated by rules, monitored, and controlled for years. He has learned to compartmentalize. It’s not that bad. It always gets better, eventually. Doesn’t it?

Recovery can be an unexpected obstacle when you didn’t realize you were being hurt in the first place.

OR: How Adrien lives and copes with the emotional abuse inflicted on him over the years, and how he ultimately could overcome it.

If you want a good “Adrien doesn’t realize how abusive his father is but slowly buckles more and more under his tyranny, until things come to a head, and he actually gets the HELP HE NEEDS” fic, this is a good one!

---

Stealing Freedom by @rosie-b

Adrien Agreste was a good person. Marinette knew this to be true, of course; she wouldn’t be marrying him if he were some irredeemable villain. No, her fiancé was practically the opposite of evil. He cooed over babies and kittens, literally stopped to smell the roses and always brought large bouquets of them to dates. He had trouble killing spiders and bugs, begging his partner to take on the task whenever she was around to save him. Adrien was the sweetest person Marinette knew, the most kindhearted, the most forgiving; he was almost too perfect for her sometimes. But now, Marinette knew that the same Adrien who still blushed when his fiancée kissed him was also the well-known terror of Paris, Cat Walker.

Now, this fic really SHOULD have been in my top fics for 2022 post. I’m a sucker for enemies au and I love a good Sentiadrien fic, so combining the two of them here is great! I feel so bad for Adrien, and I love that the heroes know from early on that Cat Walker isn’t really the enemy here. It’s short, but it’s sweet.

[theerurishipper]

Just saw a post that said Adrien is a love bomber... are we really throwing buzzwords around for the sake of salting on Adrien, the abuse victim? Love bombing is an emotional manipulation tactic, and it is usually paired with the cycle of abuse. Adrien is not abusive. He is not emotionally manipulating Marinette. He is showing her affection. I guess we're demonizing showing our loved ones any sort of affection now...

Yeah fr, people will throw around all kinds of words istg. This is the definition of love bombing:

Love bombing is a tactic in which someone “bombs” you with extreme displays of attention and affection with the intent to manipulate you. Although being showered with "love" can seem positive at the beginning of a romantic relationship, love bombing can lead to gaslighting and abuse. Psychologists caution it might be a tactic used by a narcissist or sociopath in an attempt to control you.

Anyways, Adrien doesn't do this. In fact, this is what Gabriel does to Adrien. From this article:

In a relationship with a pathological predator, love bombing is combined with intermittent reinforcement to create a sense of instability and longing in the victim. Intermittent reinforcement (in the context of psychological abuse) is a pattern of cruel, callous treatment mixed in with periodic affection. The abuser hands out rewards such as affection, a compliment, or gifts sporadically and unpredictably throughout the abuse cycle. This causes the victim to perpetually seek their approval while settling for the crumbs of their occasional positive behavior.

This is exactly what Gabriel does. Whenever it seems like Adrien is rebelling against him because he is tired of Gabriel's neglect, Gabriel will offer him a little concession. Adrien is rebelling against him? Fine, let him go to school. In this way, Adrien doesn't rebel against his father anymore, and Gabriel can keep him under his control, because now Adrien will continue to believe the best of his father and will continue to try and earn his love. Another example is in Gorizilla. Adrien gets tired of Gabriel stopping him from seeing his mother's movie, and sneaks out. Later, Gabriel allows him to watch the movie, and throws in a little bit of gaslighting in there, essentially blaming Adrien for not being open with him and making him feel guilty, when it's his own fault his son didn't open up to him, which is because he's a neglectful asshat.

This is Gabriel and Adrien's relationship. Adrien stays with his father and tries so hard to please him, because Gabriel has instilled in him that love is something conditional that is to be earned. And whenever it seems like Adrien is breaking away from this mentality, Gabriel will do something "nice" for him, which will bring Adrien right back, because he's an abused child who wants to believe the best of his father and wants his love and affection.

Again, to quote the article:

As author Adylen Birch writes, “Creating fear of losing the relationship and then relieving it periodically with episodes of love and attention is the perfect manipulation.” Much like the way a gambler at a slot machine becomes addicted to playing the game for a potential win despite the risk of major loss, a victim in the abuse cycle can become attached to the idea of getting a return on their investment in the relationship despite the toll it takes on their well-being.

There's actually an example of this in the show. From Illusion:

Adrien: Speaking of which, Dad, I'm not really comfortable with having my face on all these rings. That's actually why I didn't want to be a model anymore, to avoid that. Do you understand? Gabriel: Of course, I understand, my son. But that's the point; it's just an image, it's not you! And since this image frees you from your obligations, we, the Agrestes, are able to spend more time together. But if you'd rather everything went back to the way it was before, just say the word. Adrien: (wears the Alliance ring on his index finger) You're probably right.

Gabriel even explicitly says what he's doing, which is holding the threat of going back to their previous relationship over his son's head to emotionally manipulate him. To refer back to the article, he creates the fear of losing the relationship in Adrien, and then makes a big deal of showing that he cares so much about Adrien and his future, and he makes him breakfast. This is love-bombing. And so, Adrien goes along with whatever Gabriel wants as long as he doesn't lose it. And so, he continues to do what Gabriel wants, which is to accept the Alliance rings and his image being used in ways he doesn't want. And true enough, Adrien goes back to defending his father after he finally worked up the courage to confront him for his shit in the beginning.

Adrien: My father? But Nino, he's changed, he's making an effort, and it's the first time he's coming to school!

I could go on, and there are several examples of this in the show, but then we'd be here forever. But I highly recommend that article. I just read it, and it is literally Gabriel and Adrien, oh my god. It's very informative and I think we should all be aware of this.

But anyways, back to your question anon (sorry for the tangent). Adrien doesn't love bomb. Adrien is just very affectionate. He doesn't withdraw affection from anyone, he doesn't make them settle for scraps. He doesn't try to manipulate anyone, he doesn't gaslight anyone, he doesn't try to make them seek his approval. Adrien is always kind and loving towards everybody he cares for.

In fact, Adrien does the exact opposite. He fawns over others, and he tries to earn their love and approval. This is because of Gabriel's abuse. And to accuse him of love bombing is so disgusting. Honestly, people just throw those words around like candy. But then again, I've seen what the side of the fandom that might have said this usually says, and it's usually the same victim-blamey abuse apologist rhetoric, so I'm not even surprised.

Thank you for your ask!

[kawaiichibiart]

Adrien bonding with the Gotham City Sirens is something I think I've only seen in like, two fanfics.

The first is a bio!mom Harley Quinn, bio!dad Joker fic, where Harley asks the Batfam to look after her daughter (Marinette) when she visits, because she's apparently coming to Gotham (class field trip) despite being told it was dangerous. Iirc, she and Adrien are either dating or have a sibling like relationship, it's been a while. Marinette obviously introduces Adrien to her moms and they end up bonding for a while. It was only one chapter, since the majority of the story is moreso focused on Marinette and her asking the Bats to help with the Hawkmoth or whatever he's going by, situation. And of course what the class is doing. The fic isn't done, nor has it been updated in a while, so there might have been more bonding there. I would have loved to see Ivy talk to Adrien about how her more dangerous plants liked him and slowly be the first to learn about him wielding the cat miraculous and thus, the powers of destruction (because we learn around the end of the chapter where Adrienette visit Harley that Ivy's more dangerous plants like Adrien while her other plants, such as flowers, were scared of him). Again, it's been a while, so take this summary with a grain of salt.

The other is a more recently discovered fic, and it's a dimension travel fic, where Ladybug and Chat Noir are fighting Monarch, but Monarch is winning. And as things seems to come to a bad end, Chat Noir manages to get the Rooster Miraculous back, but at the cost of breaking it. I can't remember how they entered a different dimension, if it was Monarchs doing or if Chat Noir managed to get some last use of the Rooster so they could get somewhere safe. Either way, they end up in a different universe, and more specifically, in Gotham. They decide to hide out but of course, the Bats find them. But they aren't able to find out who they are or where they came from, to them these are just some really beat up kids. Meanwhile, they quickly learn who the Bats are, thanks to: THE POWERS OF ANIMAL INSTINCTS!! Yeah, Adrien could smell them (Jason/Red Hood and Damian/Robin) and realized it was same smell. And while that's happening, Adrien also heads out as Chat Noir and meets Catwoman. Stuff happens, Selina manages to get Barbara to help her find out his secret ID, and they find out. Selina brings Chat Noir to where she, Harley and Ivy live and talks him into letting her help. He does and she reassures him that Ladybug won't be mad. She even lets him know her secret ID and let's him know she knows his, and then she learned they knew who the Bats were. Again, stuff happens. And iirc, she called dibs. You'd think I'd remember this one better, but I don't, which sucks because I love this fic.

[imthepunchlord]

Don't know if you still write for Miraculous Ladybug, but if you do what are your thoughts on having Adrien die? Not even in an Adrien salt way but in general I think that killing him off could lead to so many interesting paths for a ML fic to go.

It's gradual. Some WIPs I'm trying to figure out how to continue. It's just one of those things to let it stew/come back later.

As for the topic, my gut response is that it feels unnecessarily dark and it feels like angst for Gabriel and/or Marinette, potentially Chloe, Felix, and Nino too. Angst I'm not really interested in writing myself.

I will say, I did have one thought relating to Adrien's death: a reason for Sentidrien's existence.

Idk how a majority feel about the Sentikids, the little I've looked into people seem to just accept it, but I'm not crazy about these rich couples deciding they'd rather have magical feather babies they can fully control than having a kid by any other means that they can easily afford.

So Adrien's death was my answer to this choice of what Adrien was and to try and roll with it better. Adrien Agreste did exist, but died tragically and desperate, grief stricken Emilie just couldn't bear the loss and used the broken Peafowl to recreate her "perfect son".

Emilie got sick, Gabriel doesn't know how to feel about this "Adrien" who looks like his son but isn't and is the cause of Emilie's state. Meanwhile "Adrien" is being the perfect son he was made to be, is confused and hurt by his father's coldness, finds he has fragmented memories of his life and the people he supposedly has known his whole life.

And as I'm not sure a Miraculous should have a power to make actual life (especially as they can snuff it out with a snap of their fingers), I'd say "Adrien" becomes a real boy by being near the two most powerful Miraculous. Cat gradually destroys his connection to his item, and thanks to the Ladybug, it creates something new to replace it.

And it leads to a whole thing of "Adrien" starting to rebel against Gabriel, becoming alive vs the complacent doll he used to be. And "Adrien" learns he's not the true Adrien, that he's a clone made out of grief and love, and has to deal with the reality that he's a fabrication, but he's not like other Sentis either, and wonder if he's truly Adrien or does he like who Adrien used to be, does he even want to be Adrien? And you got Gabriel getting more aggravated as wtf is going on with this doll?

Part of me even thought of him deciding to rename himself Felix to establish a separation better.

But that'd be my answer for what if Adrien did die, it'd be my way to roll with Sentidrien's existence and how I would've made it work.

[baenyth]

It's Chameleon Time, and I Don't Mean the Cool Lizard

I decided to watch Miraculous Season 3 Episode 1: Chameleon, the salt episode, because I suddenly decided I wanted to know how real the salt was again. Here's my thoughts:

Damn, Lila's good. She has backdoors for her lies and the only one I'd really call bad was the napkin one, but then again these are 14-15-year-olds in 2015-2016. They probably believe in the secret Grillby boss fight after beating Sans in genocide.

Despite being the two biggest targets for the salters, Adrien and Alya were incredibly chill here. Adrien was doing what he thought was best for the context and would defnitely change is mind if he heard Lila threatened Marinette, while Alya was one one most on Marinette's side. They're besties.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Marinette was just jealous of Lila at first until she threatened Marinette in the bathroom stall. Her grievances were more at Lila throughout the episode than what she was doing to the class.

Marinette, all you had to do was excuse yourself to the bathroom, transform, and explain the situation to Nino and Alya.

In general the closest thing to hostile the class was to Marinette was Kim and Mylene calling her out for throwing stuff at Lila (a major no-no there,) and a few moments where they all looked mad at her, probably because it would be cheaper instead of giving them all different reactions.

I have to wonder if a lot of the stuff Lila does in fics is real or not. I know she makes people do the work she doesn't want to do, but do future episodes showcase her as a con artist like in the fics? It wouldn't be surprising, at the very least.

Did anyone seriously believe Chameleon's ruse as Adrien? It's like she was trying to be horrible. I could do a better job at both lying to appeal to the class and posing as Adrien.

If Lila continues to be as evil as I think she's gonna be, I hope she gets turned into a clam more often even though I know that won't happen.

So yeah, that was the salt episode. Here's my beliefs on how the class views Lila with one bonus:

And also @flightfoot because I know you were curious.

[hamsteriffic]

Miraculous Fandom Stats 2023

A Visit to Gotham

…and beyond

As promised here are my stats for Miraculous Ladybug fics on Ao3 with crossovers only. To see a snapshot for Miraculous Ladybug without crossovers click here.

📈 The data presented here is a snapshot of the Fandom on 06 Jan 2024

Don't be mad! I'm just a stats hamster.

🖤 Proportion of Crossover fics

At the time of posting, Crossover Fics accounted for 13% of the total fanfics on Ao3 (9177 works) (Fig 1A). They were predominantly featured in Batman All Media Types (5097 works) or DCU (1034 works), accounting for 68% of all crossover fics (Fig 1D). The majority of the works were rated for General (39%) or Teen Audiences (39%) (Fig 1B).

Fig 1. Proportion of Miraculous Ladybug works posted on Ao3 in 2023 [A] featuring crossovers (grey) and without crossovers (black); [B] and the proportion of all works posted on Ao3 as of January 06, 2024 (9177 works). [C] The proportion of cross-overs outside of the MariBat fandom as well as [D] the growth of the top ten fandoms in crossovers in 2023 (red) are also presented.

Excluding works from the MariBat fandom, the second highest number of works to be crossovered with ML was Boko No Hero Academia with 348 works (3%) and is also the fastest growing crossover fandom, almost doubling in works in 2023 (141 new works) (Fig 1C-D).

🖤 Top 10 Fandom Crossovers

Here are the crossovers in a Table format.

Table 1. Top 10 Fandoms in 2023 and percentage change compared to 2022.

Popular Tags used in 2023 (number of works) and percent change compared to 2022:

Fluff (246): -2%

Angst (161): -1%

Badass Marinette Dupain-Cheng | Ladybug (130): -1%

Lila Rossi Bashing (127): +1%

Alternate Universe (100): -7%

Hurt/Comfort (94): -2%

🖤 Top 5 Relationships

Fig 2. Top 5 relationships in ML crossover fics in 2023 and percentage change when compared to the year prior.

While works tagged with Adrien/Marinette has increased by 3% in 2023 when compared to the year before (Fig 2) the top 5 relationship pairings have not changed with Daminette taking first place.

Relationship Tags with Marinette Dupain-Cheng | Ladybug across all time (from Highest to Lowest):

Damien Wayne (1870 fics)

Adrien Agreste (1237 fics)

Jason Todd (806 fics)

Tim Drake (580 fics)

Dick Grayson (321 fics)

Hope this entertained you! Until 2024, same stats time, same stats channel.

Sodium Content and Methodology below the cut:

🖤 Top 5 Salt Categories

Look, Marinette is in Gotham for a reason. Usually it’s because of some sort of common table condiment/seasoning. Here is a breakdown:

Fig 3. Frequently tagged salt and character bashing tags across all crossover works prior to 2023 (green) and new works posted/updated subsequent to Jan 01, 2023 (dark blue). The change in numbers to the previous year (where present) are indicated.

Methods

Partitioning

To see changes in crossover fics in the ML fandom over time, I have tracked the number of crossovers posted to Ao3 per year.

Data was filtered by the date the fic was last posted, between 01 Jan - 31 Dec for each year.

Note that older fics may get updated, this data is only a reflection of the fandom at one moment in time. This analysis was performed 06 Jan 2024.

Filtering

Note that I have followed the Ao3 definition of a slash representing romantic relationships and & indicates platonic relationships.

[princess-of-the-corner]

Sorry last submission on this idea, but its amusing to me how on its surface it would like like a Miracu-salt thing.

"Oh, Chloe & Likla are team mates & revealed the truth to Adrien, in anger he's teamed up with them to fight Ladybug and also some other villain!"

But like, the reality is more along the lines of:

The other villain is almost certainly the major concern, along with looking out for Lila backstabs.

Lila could still be 100% written as a villain if one wanted, as she is still well, a super villain & also Chloe's abuser. IE, the most Chloe can do is snark, she has nowhere else to go than Lila, the streets or to a different abuser. So she's pretty far from some misunderstood woobie.

Chloe does now have some added people to blame for how shitty her life turned out, but that only provides context and a little catharsis. It doesn't fix anything, change her situation or head space & she's literally only here by accident anyway; so it was hardly some plan to "Enlighten" Adrien who she may well still be mad at.

Adrien also is at the moment only playing along due to a lack of options and to know the truth and while he'd on the surface join them, he'd not tell them he's Chat. So he's actually just secured one of the Kwami and is now a double agent. BUT, no one else knows he's a double agent and he doesn't know Marinette is Ladybug so the whole plan is kind of a mass of misunderstood circumstances and poor communication engineered by identity issues.

So, yeah, basically if written (I sadly cannot) I'd aim to see a fairly happy ending and avoid going all salt fic. But it would definitely have a sort of clusterfuck vibe to it. Like no one is getting out of here without some mix of therapy, shouting or a none powered fist fight.

Honestly they're all fucked up kids trying to fix their lives.

[trashyangelic]

09232023: prompt request

sᴀʟᴛs - Bustier Salt, Damocles Salt, Lila Salt, Alya salt ʀᴇᴅᴇᴍᴘᴛɪᴏɴs - Sabrina Sugar, Akuma Class Sugar, Adrien Sugar, Nathaniel Sugar, and Chloe Redemption ᴏᴛʜᴇʀs - Marinette Deserves Better, Bad Teacher Caline Bustier, Major Character Death (Lila Rossi) , No Lila Rossi Redemption

Nino was thinking of watching horror movies with Adrien along with the class but Mylene suggested, "The Grudge" a Japanese movie but they don't know if its a true story.

WHAT IF?! its a true story maybe letting the Akuma Class to go to Japan to see if the mother and the son were real they can film it with Alya with them. While most people in Japan doesn't want to talk about that curse house but pity the people who attend to go there when being warned.

Except a couple students in the Akuma Class like Marinette, Chloe, Sabrina, Nino, Mylene, Ivan, Adrien, Juleka, Alix, Max, Kim, and Rose doesn't want to go which only leaves Lila, Alya, and Miss Bustier since they don't believe in ghost and thinks its just a normal house which is fine for Miss Bustier since most of her students doesn't want to go since they have seen it happen in the movie theres is no way they are going. Since Kagami warned Adrien not to go that curse house its particularly haunted with a vengeful spirit.

While Chloe suggested a trip to Disney World in Florida as everyone agreed to go minus Miss Bustier who is incompetent, Lila, and Alya. As Marinette went to ask an approval to the School Board which they are fine it but not happy with their teacher Caline for being incompetent of going to that curse house that the students mentioned it became a legend as well but also haunted.

Which leaves only Lila, Alya, and Caline to go to the curse house in Japan as to what Nino stated The Grudge Movie that he told Alya to watch with a friend since he is watching it with his best friend Adrien.

But at the end the news were announced that one young girl as in Lila Rossi died in the cursed house leaving two people as in Caline Bustier who was being strangled by the mother spirit and now believing that ghost are real and Alya Cesaire who had a scar across her neck an scared out of her witts telling herself she isn't coming there anymore she learned her lesson to listen to their warnings. As many people had tried to warn them not to but they don't seem to listen.

Leaving the Mrs. Rossi still angry at Caline Bustier for not saving her daughter but Alya return a favor to Mrs. Rossi and told her the truth of what Lila told her back in school before they got here. Mrs. Rossi was disappointed of her daughter lies but warned Alya Cesaire to watch out for lawsuit on her blog cause that would give a hard time for her parents. But was disgusted of Bustier and Damocles at the moment as Marinette told Mrs. Rossi the truth of what her daughter has done to her in the past which she was horrified. So she made her goal to tell the School Board about Damocles and Bustier to the young girl Marinette Dupain-Cheng being a doormat and to forgive her daughter for bullying her but also expelling her without proof.

While Lila is stuck in the curse house forever while being haunted by two vengeful spirits.

[nobodyfamousposts]

Do you think that a lot of the bad moments that people salt Marinette for are more due the "Marinette must commit a mistake and learn a lesson" Episode Writing Rule than things that she would actually do?

Partly. To be fair, part of it does seem to be based around the cringe moments that the writers threw in because they thought that somehow a teenage girl being embarrassed is what amounts to "humor". These humiliating moments that nobody BUT Marinette seems to experience and have played for laughs. Certainly not to the extent she does.

Not helped is that not only does no one else have to suffer such moments, but when others actively inflict this embarrassment onto her, they're never called out or really even acknowledged for their part. And when any of them experience similar treatment, it's narratively portrayed as sad and something to sympathize with them for.

Chloe pulled a lot of horrible stunts, and the fact that she's not even given so much as a slap on the wrist only further pushes this horrible narrative that it's supposed to funny and no big deal when Chloe does bad things and when Marinette suffers. And especially when Adrien or really anyone else does just as bad if not worse only to have any lesson be actively avoided.

So I think a major aspect of the salt towards Marinette is the narrative around her and how her suffering is portrayed as a joke and as if it's somehow deserved or warranted.

The very first episode had it end on a humor note of her losing out on a modeling chance with Adrien and the ending acting like she deserved it somehow. Let's bear in mind it was Alya pushing her to join and Marinette herself hadn't done anything to really deserve losing out the way the episode did compared with if she'd been actively ignoring Manon or acting like a jerk. As a result, I don't know what the lesson was supposed to be there other than that Marinette can't have nice things.

Reflektdoll was a major episode that showed this issue. ALYA was the one who pushed Juleka out to force Adrien and Marinette together. Even though Marinette told her she didn't want Adrien there in the first place. And yet even though ALYA was the one who caused the situation and MARINETTE was the one who at least TRIED to help Juleka and hear her out, Marinette ended up the one getting the full blame for Juleka being upset and the ONLY ONE who apologized by the end for apparently not doing enough to help Juleka despite her actively having attempted to and being cut off by Alya each time. She also ended up the ONLY ONE who WASN'T in the picture with Adrien. ALYA was in the picture, despite being the one directly responsible and the one who wanted Adrien and Marinette to have pictures taken of them together. All of this together gives the impression the narrative is punishing Marinette and that Marinette is somehow supposed to be the one in the wrong in the situation. Meanwhile, Alya and her actions and her part in the whole mess are simply forgotten.

There are at least four separate instances I can think of off the top of my head of Adrien throwing tantrums in the middle of akuma fights and even going so far as threatening to quit, refusing to work with Ladybug to stop the akuma, and even actually quitting. And each time, either HE was portrayed as the wholly innocent party and/or SHE was portrayed as being in the wrong and needing to apologize to him for...(checks notes) not giving him what he wants: whether that be a date, her identity, Fu's secrets, or not being dependent on him.

Then there's Chloe and Lila. Do I really need to get into them at this point?

And remember the comic and how Marinette ended up naked in New York thanks to a stunt Chloe pulled and instead of ANY punishment for Chloe for theft and leaving Marinette without any clothes, it's used to teach Marinette a lesson about racism? No, I will NOT let that go. Even if they did an "official New York episode" to try and replace it, it showed the depths that the writers would put Marinette through and how they would go out of their way to make it be more of a point to make HER wrong somehow even if they had to make it up and disregard the implications and the person responsible.

It all comes down to this common tendency Miraculous has to make light of the things Marinette goes through and having the treatment of her be their go-to joke.

[sweetcloverheart]

I can fully respect people not being 100% about the movie’s portrayal of Adrien (Haven’t gotten a chance to watch it but from the spoilers I’ve seen, the biggest major difference is that he’s just a bit more reserved than show!Adrien and sasses her a lot as Chat in the beginning) but the amount of vitriol I see get aimed at him in movie salt posts is jaw-dropping. Not even show!Adrien salters get that upset when talking about him

[flightfoot]

"Because Felix has always been presented as being either a villain or morally questionable, whereas Marinette's always been a hero."

You know that's the same argument a lot of Adrien salters use whenever they say they prefer Felix over him (that and "at least he moves the plot along unlike Adrien"), despite the very first episode he appears in having him trying to kiss Marinette without her consent (which is you know, sexual harassment? The very same thing they always say Chat Noir does to Ladybug?) And I guess I get where that argument comes from (at least before Season 5 where it seems the writers were trying to justify every bad thing Felix ever did), but there's gotta be a limit to how much someone can use that argument before it make whoever uses it looks like a complete hypocrite.

I've seen those arguments from Felinette people, I've been in this fandom a long time. Crucial difference here: when I saw it used as Adrien salt, Felix was being presented as being a substantially better person than Adrien, usually to an absurd degree, and often while deliberately punishing Adrien for supposedly being so heinous and awful.

Like if you just enjoy watching Felix more, then more power to you. That's fine, that's your own deal. But Adrien is certainly not a worse person than Felix is.

With Marinette, I'm saying that Felix tricking or concealing secrets from Adrien isn't exactly new, while he cares for Adrien to some extent, he has the same issues of making major harmful decisions for Adrien as we've seen Marinette do, but Felix's are often worse. He's got a Freudian Excuse for a lot of that stuff, but it still ain't a good thing.

"Felix is keeping secrets from Adrien that he absolutely deserves to know" is a pretty minor crime, compared to some other stuff he's done. It just kinda gets thrown on the pile.

Basically, I expect better from Marinette than I do from Felix. Especially since Marinette is dating Adrien, and is partners with Chat Noir. But while I expect better from Marinette, I'm not gonna say that Felix is a better person overall than her.

[theerurishipper]

It’s so hard being an Adrien stan in this fandom. People are constantly nitpicking every little thing he does. He can never do right by them. It’s so frustrating. And that’s not even mentioning how he was treated in canon

I feel you anon. I wasn't actively posting for the fandom during the major salt periods, like right after the airing of Syren and then Chameleon, but I was around to see the ridiculous salt fests that would go on. People love to pick on Adrien for every single little thing that involves him making a decision that doesn't cater perfectly to Marinette's whims and needs, but woe be upon you if you say anything about Marinette that isn't praising her. It's not even like I have a problem with Marinette as a character. Some of her writing in Season 4 and 5? Yes. But in Seasons 1-3, I really loved her. She was such a breath of fresh air for me as a character. She was so full of charm and life and energy. But she got ruined for me by her stans who jumped to salt on every other character for not exactly agreeing with her every decision and for having minds of their own and having desires that weren't about her.

And another annoying part is their insistence that Marinette is treated oh so cruelly by the narrative and poor Marinette is always suffering and everyone is treating her so cruelly and she deserves better than people who aren't willing to be her faithful slaves. Then Seasons 4 and 5 brought this into canon, and then you saw people who were salting on Adrien for being upset about being neglected by his partner, and they were blaming him for "feeling entitled to her" despite never calling her out for her treatment of him. Lemme tell you, the chimney discourse was wild. And all that bullshit ass "discourse" about him harassing Ladybug, while ignoring all the stalking Marinette did and pretending it was nothing. I generally ignore anyone who says either of these things because they are clearly meant to be jokes, and I think calling Adrien a harasser is just as ludicrous as calling Marinette a stalker, but the double standard of taking the joke seriously for Adrien but not for Marinette is annoying, to say the least.

And ultimately they just want Adrien and everyone else to be Marinette's sidekicks/yes-men who will never disagree with her and will always do whatever she wants and will never think for themselves. And you unfortunately can see this attitude seeping into canon too, with how Adrien isn't allowed to have independent thoughts outside of how he can be of service to Marinette. Nothing matters for him, the only thing that matters is her and what he can do for her. She's allowed to yell at him and throw him into trashcans, but fuck him if he disagrees with her on something and isn't happy to just sit by and accept being replaced and ignored. And canon Adrienette is such a good example of this phenomenon.

But the salters will whine and rage about how Marinette is such a victim of the narrative and how she suffers so much that we should all excuse her less than perfect actions, while also raging at Adrien for any small slight and denying that he also suffers. I guess Marinette can be excused for being traumatized and stressed, but being a victim of horrific abuse is too less of a reason for Adrien to be excused, and I guess it means he isn't suffering. To them, only Marinette's feelings and suffering matters. And this has also become true for the show, because Adrien's feelings don't matter, only Marinette's feelings about him matter.

And the worst fucking thing I've seen from this fandom is the occasional post about how Adrien is "spineless" and "cowardly" and "doesn't have a backbone" because he is non-confrontational and doesn't get up in arms about everything. And, aside from the fact that there is absolutely nothing wrong with not flying into a righteous rage about everything, this is some fucking heavy victim blaming bullshit. Like, y'all know that Adrien is like that because he's a victim of abuse, right? That his actions are a trauma response, right? It's called fawning. How awful of Adrien to have been conditioned into being non-confrontational by an abusive father who wants him to be subservient to his every whim! How useless is he for being traumatized because of the abuse he suffers! What a loser!

Honestly, the deranged Marinette stans are the worst. If someone says that shit about Adrien, they can go fuck themselves honestly. The gall to accuse a character who is an abuse victim of being "a spineless worm who can't grow a backbone" (someone legit wrote this word for word). Acting like he's the scum of the earth for not agreeing with Marinette 24/7 and victim blaming him for not rising swords drawn the moment someone does something mean to her.

So yeah, I understand you anon. It's really annoying to see all these "hot takes" going around. But there are still many Marinette fans who are nice and don't say all this goofy shit about Adrien, and there are plenty of Adrien stans who love and defend our boy. My advice is to block the salt tags, follow the right blogs and curate your experience the best you can. Trust me, it took a while for me to learn to stop putting myself through the agony of looking through these salt posts and to start blocking tags and salters' blogs. But I'm better off for it now. It won't stop some of these posts from popping up here and there, but it'll massively improve your fandom experience.

Thank you for your ask!

[ja50nt0ddwa5h3r3]

Thoughts on Marinette Salt?

Like mostly of her stalking behavior and her having Adrien's entire schedule for the next 3 years and her having birthday presents up until his, like, 30something birthday and don't forget she broke into his bedroom and somehow was able to get a firefighter to help her break in and you can't forget her stealing Adrien's phone and calling the phone company, pretending to be his assistant in order to get the password of his phone just to delete a embarrassing voicemail she left

I think in some ways this makes Timari brilliant/j. In other ways, she's terrifying. Marinette salt has its places. Most of the time, Marinette salt is needed because WOW she can be a major red flag. Most of the time Marinette salt probably follows canon. When people are pointing out character flaws, bashing, writing salt that follows canon and not making things up, that's AMAZING!! It helps people irl to be able to distinguish between healthy and toxic behaviors.

what I DONT like about salt fics is a lot of times, they'll exaggerate behaviors and talk about events that DIDNT happen, and that, to me, feels kind of pointless.

tldr; salt's good, but a healthy balance of salt and truth is better.