#major adrien salt

[fernsnouveau]

I did not want Adrien and his abuse survivor arc to be reduced to a secondary tug-war object in a conflict that's actually all about Maribug and Lila, which is now what's going to happen if it ever does come up, now that Adrien was forcibly ejected out of his own character arc when it was actually happening.

So now that the season 5 finale has aired, and Adrien still didn't get to find out anything about his father, I've been seeing people theorize that Adrien will learn everything next season, but that he'll be learning it from Lila.

While I do think that that outcome would be better than him never learning anything, I don't think it would be satisfying either, and for a few reasons.

A) If Adrien isn't going to learn about Gabriel's true nature on his own, he should at least learn it from his Marinette, Emilie (or is she Amilie now?), or Natalie.

He should be told with kindness, and I believe that the people who claim to love him have a responsibility to be honest with him. Hearing it from anyone else, Lila especially, will hurt him more. Could be good for the drama of it all, I guess, but I don't want drama for drama's sake, I want character growth.

B) Lila being the one to tell him anything could be, intentionally or unintentionally, the show continuing to frame his learning the truth as a bad thing, as it would be portrayed as an act of cruelty and manipulation from an enemy, while his family and girlfriend, the people "with his best interest at heart", would be framed as in the right for having kept secrets, because "See, see?? Look how much the truth hurt him!"

C) Adrien learning anything after his father is dead and gone denies him the chance to confront him, or stand up for himself in any meaningful capacity, which gives him, and us the audience, no real closure.

What is Adrien supposed to do once he knows? Cataclysm a statue, while he has to mull over everything he would have said to him, knowing that there's no one to say it to? Or just ignore it, pretend it doesn't matter? Just say "all's well that ends well" even though everything around him is based on a lie?

Or maybe he just never finds out.

No matter where they go from here, I honestly just won't be satisfied. To me, i think the window for Adrien's true Good End is closed.

[nobodyfamousposts]

Do you think people cling on too much to Adrien's high road advice as a reason to salt on him?

Yes, especially when there are plenty of other reasons to salt him that have previously been ignored. But to that end, it DOES serve as the final straw for people after a SERIES of problems that had previously gone unaddressed.

Much like many aspects of the show, Adrien has displayed problematic behaviors that have been overlooked and waved off in the earlier seasons. This is likely or especially due to the way how in each and every incident, Adrien was narratively shown to be correct. In his stance. In his choices. In his behaviors. He was always right. It doesn't matter if he shouldn't be, because he is.

Now unless you're a hater or anti or salter or whatever negative name people tend to get for not liking a story as it's presented, readers and watchers tend to follow along with the narrative as it presents things and how it presents things. It's a common setup in any story. Protagonist Centered Morality, I feel framed best by Susan in the Discord series:

Susan: ...and then Jack chopped down the beanstalk, adding murder and ecological vandalism to the theft, enticement and trespass charges already mentioned, but he got away with it and lived happily ever after without so much as a guilty twinge about what he had done. Which proves that you can be excused anything if you're a hero, because no one asks inconvenient questions.

Pretty much this. Most people will follow what the narrative says because it's the narrative. If the narrative wants you to focus on Marinette being embarrassed, you're going to focus on how much she's cringe. And if the narrative wants you to view Adrien as a perfect sunshine boy who never does anything wrong, anything he does is going to be framed through that lens and it's difficult to break from that view and call out the times when he is wrong. Not unless he does something particularly severe.

It should be noted that outside of Chameleon, Adrien had, among other things: lied to his partner, caused someone to get akumatized and had his partner take the blame, was messing around during life-threatening and city-threatening situations, did nothing as Chloe tormented people right in front of him, DEFENDED Chloe after she tormented people right in front of him, bailed on an event with friends to set up a date with someone who said she had other plans and then got mad at HER for it, tried to flirt or confess in the middle of an active crisis which took necessary attention away from said crisis, caused himself AND his partner to get hit by akuma powers and needlessly be taken out of commission.

And yet people could mostly overlook these instances. They weren't his fault. Chloe is his friend. Marinette is worse. He's just a kid. He has a tragic backstory. So on and so forth. Easy to overlook. Easy to ignore in favor of the Sunshine Boy setup people were given and want to believe in.

But there were three major instances that really grabbed people's attention and stayed:

His attitude in Frozer. It probably wouldn't have been so bad except this rejection already happened in Glaciator, where he was supposed to have learned a lesson and accepted just being Ladybug's friend and now apparently didn't, despite it happening earlier that very season. Then in response, he decides to date Kagami as a rebound, drags Marinette with him on his date (without realizing how he's asking his friend to be a third wheel on a DATE) and focuses on her when he's supposed to be with Kagami, throws another tantrum in the middle of an akuma fight and refuses to work with his partner when the city is literally frozen, and requires Ladybug to apologize to him for hurting his feelings before he finally working with her. Again. But okay, he's a teenage boy in love. Not used to rejection and got his feelings hurt. Lovesquare is endgame so of course it'll work out anyway, so it's not like this bump in the road is really going to matter long term so we shouldn't hold it against him. Fine. Dumb, but fine. We've forgiven it in other shows and other poorly done teen romances, we can forgive it here.

His behavior in Syren in which he demanded to know secrets from people when the secrets were not theirs to tell him, and went so far as to attempt to blackmail his kwami (which was funny) and threaten to quit and abandon the Ring that the big bad is after while the city is flooded and people were trying to not drown (which was decidedly less humorous). But it was played for wholesome when Plagg reassured him and he got what he wanted by Fu revealed himself even if Adrien did nothing to actually show he earned it, so all's well that ends well, I guess? And people could justify it because "they're partners" and "part of a team" and "she should trust him" and "it's not fair he's the only one left out of the loop" and "he has a right to know" and just general "Fu is an idiot" (which is admittedly hard to argue). So people were disgruntled, but most were willing to overlook it.

His holier than thou lecture to Marinette in Maledictator over everyone being happy Chloe was leaving. When all Marinette was doing at the time was watching everyone else have fun. When Adrien specifically guilted Marinette and not any of the other actual partiers involved who were literally throwing a party over his friend leaving and probably should have warranted a lecture more than the girl just standing there. When the girl in question was also Chloe's main target and out of everyone had valid reasons to be happy that her bully won't be around to bully her anymore. When Adrien himself has historically been present to witness Marinette being targeted including twice he witnessed Chloe attempt to steal from Marinette, once he witnessed her try to blackmail Marinette, and numerous other times when she actively caused harm to Marinette and others. When Adrien then proceeded to sit in a corner and pout rather than do anything else or just leave if the party really bothered him. When Adrien, if he really cared so damn much, could have gone after Chloe himself! Or y'know...have stood up for Chloe earlier when she got upset in the first place. But fine, okay, Chloe is his childhood friend. So maybe he's just being biased and oblivious to the fact that his "friend" is a horrible person. But people can excuse and justify it in that they are friends and friends support each other, and the longer someone is friends with someone else, the harder it is to break from them. And that Marinette was probably just the target of his lecture because she was the one there in the moment (and the only one who would listen without arguing). And her calling Chloe useless was "mean" despite it being quite frankly the least of what she could have said about her in the moment (coughcough theft cough blackmail cough punished the entire school cough TRIED TO CRASH A TRAIN AND NEARLY KILLED HER AND HER PARENTS COUGH-FREAKINGCOUGH). Fine. Childhood friend means Adrien supports her in all her horrible and even deadly actions. Frustrating, but again, able to be explained and you can see where he's coming from.

These are all things that definitely got Adrien some side eye at best and some detractors at worst.

BUT if you really think about it, all of these examples are objectively worse than his lecture to Marinette in Chameleon. Not accepting being told "no" and continuing to chase a girl who isn't that in to him (while leading on another). Putting lives at risk over personal wants that could quite honestly wait until AFTER the crisis is over. Defending someone who is harmful and guilt tripping the victims. Compared to those, telling someone to leave a liar to their lying seems relatively minor.

So why this? Why here? Why is it Chameleon that has people saying enough is enough? Why is it this episode that is causing the sunshine boy to be so tarnished and the subject of salt in fan fiction?

Because this is the time when it couldn't be rationalized. There wasn't even a valid sensible canon-based reason for his stance. The arguments that Adrien "knew confronting her wouldn't work" or that he "handled her like paparazzi" or that he "knew Marinette previously failed when she tried" (even though he wasn't there and didn't know) or that he "didn't think anyone would believe him" don't come from canon. Those were fan arguments made after the fact to justify him after the base was broken and the outcry became too much to ignore.

This case didn't have any of the ties or rationales of the previous incidents. Adrien wasn't defending himself or his place in a partnership. He wasn't fighting for his love or his dream or an outcome he wanted and that we all knew was coming—if anything, he was fighting against her. He wasn't defending a friend like he did with Chloe—I mean, it's pretty evident he doesn't even really know or like Lila at this point, and for all intents and purposes, this is apparently only the second day he actually had any interaction with her. There was no notable reason Adrien really had for why he essentially chose to protect Lila over literally anyone else as she wasn't a friend and it wasn't in his interests to protect her from a consequence that wouldn't hurt her short term as much as it would likely harm everyone else long term.

And yet, he still defended her and her freedom to lie. Over Marinette. Over Ladybug. Over his friends. Over any sense of right and wrong he seems to have no problem throwing around when it comes to Marinette/Ladybug. Which seems like he targets her 9 times out of 10 compared to pretty much anyone else by this point. So it's little wonder then that people who didn't already hate the lovesquare because of the cringe factor from Marinette started to hate it for being incredibly unhealthy given that their relatively limited interactions tend to involve him lecturing her for failing to live up to his double standards that only seem to apply to her in any given situation.

This incident by itself doesn't seem like much, but when looked at as part of the series as a whole, it's when people couldn't keep overlooking this trend. Where he seems to admonish the wrong person. Where he acts like a mouthpiece rather than a person. Talks like he’s wise in a situation he seems to have a childish and one-sided view of. Acts like a brat but is treated as though he has no accountability in the situation he causes. Where he is wrong but no one and certainly not the narrative acknowledges it (not until season five and two seasons too late when it doesn't matter and he's still not the one facing consequences for it).

And it's not like he actually follows the stances he himself promotes. In Chameleon, canon presents him with this idealistic stance that Lila could change if given a chance, except he doesn't give her a chance. He doesn't push her to be a better person. He doesn't support or in any way help her to be the better person he insisted to Marinette she could be. He also doesn't do anything or warn anyone when she keeps lying and actively harms the people he says he cares about. He doesn't do anything one way or the other other than some lackluster encouragement to stop lying and a warning that goes nowhere. It just further gives credit to the argument that Adrien either simply doesn't care about other people, or that he doesn't care for Marinette specifically. Neither is conducive to the lovesquare or the increasingly tarnished view of the "sunshine boy".

And it could have worked. Canonically and intrinsically to his character. His idealism and trust in the wrong person comes back to bite him. He learns and grows from it. Except that, much like with nearly everything he does in canon, Chameleon set it up that Adrien was the writers' mouthpiece and thus was not "wrong". I'll grant that they did have him admit it and apologize to Marinette for it two seasons later, but it is pretty evident that during Chameleon, they intended his lecture to be right, with no foreshadowing and no implication otherwise. And I'm fairly certain they only backtracked and had him do that much because of the amount of fan outrage over the episode.

So yes, I think his lecture in Chameleon was really a final straw since unlike Chloe, Adrien has NO relationship with Lila to justify his defense of her. Especially when the argument is in favor of letting her lie to the people he's supposed to care about. That combined with how jarring it was how most of the class just sided with Lila over the seat issue in the first place, and I think people were less inclined to just ignore the problems in the episode specifically and with the series as a whole as they were compared to the first and second seasons. Not just with Adrien, as we see that Alya also started getting more callout and salt since then as well as more retrospective scrutiny over her behavior in earlier seasons.

But yeah...Chameleon was where things seemed to take a 180, so it's bound to be the deciding episode and deciding incident that sticks out in people's minds with these characters. That's probably why it ends up the go-to for salt and complaints on the characters involved instead of any of the other incidents that would arguably warrant it more.

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

When I first saw a Miraculous Ladybug salt post it was the usual Lila takes away all of Marinette's friends Adrien does nothing Marinette becomes super successful Lila gets exposed blah blah blah

When I see posts like the ones you post where people give actual constructive criticism about the characters and not favor one character over the other has made me realize that these are fictional characters and its not their fault they are the way they are. Also they're 14 what kind of 14 year old makes good choice's? Especially when they have the fate of the world/universe on their shoulders

If anything the character I really blame is Master Fu. He was obviously meant to be some sort of mentor figure for them or at least Marinette's mentor. He was the one to tell and encourage Marinette to keep everything a secret from Adrien. Comparing him to other mentor like figures in the world of superheros he isn't really all that helpful.

Compared to DC Ladybug and Chat Noir do not have any adult superheros to help them. In DC younger superheros have entire superhero families to help them out and if not that than they have other adult superheros to help them or they have an actual team. We know that other miraculous holders exist and the order is back I have a vague idea as to why they can't help but I still find it weird as to why they are around if not to help. Like phones and the internet exist do they not?

Sorry for they rant, I want to know what your thoughts are on this?

Your rant was fine! I don't think that I've talked in depth about mentors as a concept and I should both because I love mentors and because Miraculous has completely failed to give us any good ones. This is a writing failure not because good mentors are required, but because the show chose to have mentors characters and then not use them.

Before I get into the topic at large, I want to start with a brief discussion of mentors in shows aimed at young children as Miraculous' intended audience is young children and that fact is worth keeping in mind when discussing what Miraculous did wrong and some of the ways that you can fix it.

Shows aimed at kids generally avoid adult characters in major roles for the very obvious reason that the intended audience is kids, so you want the kid and teen characters to be the stars. This doesn't mean that adults aren't allowed to save the day or have important roles. It just means that they should be used sparingly. This is why mentors are a great addition to kids shows. They allow adult characters to be deeply involved with the plot without anyone expecting them to intervene because that's not their role in the story. They're not here to be the hero. They're here to guide the hero.

One of the powerful things about this setup is that it allows the writers to give the real kids watching at home real advice about real life problems. For example, if Marinette comes to Fu to talk about feeling alone and overwhelmed, then he can give her real, practical advice that would apply to anyone who is feeling alone and overwhelmed, but no one expects him to directly intervene because he's supposed to say hidden.

A lot of these elements apply to mentors in media aimed at older audiences, the rules just apply for different reasons, so I'm going to stop reminding you that Miraculous is for elementary school kids and focus on the failed mentor issue as it would be an issue no matter what Miraculous' intended audience was.

When it comes to bad mentoring, a lot of people focus on Fu and I get why. At first glance, he's the classic wise old Asian man who is supposed to be there to guide the protagonist on her mystical journey (not getting into the racism issue here, just know that I'm aware of it and that Miraculous dropped the ball on this in a lot of ways even though they absolutely could have made it work.) But Fu isn't the main focus of my ire because, while the writers seemed to have designed him around the mystic Asian trope, they never actually wrote him like a mentor.

He doesn't train Marinette and Adrien in the ways of the miraculous. He just sneakily gives them their miraculous and then disappears from their lives for quite some time. So he's not around to get them properly started on their hero journey. That's strike one for the mentor role.

Strike two is the fact that we never actually see him mentoring Marinette. I don't think that she ever went to him for advice? If she did, then it wasn't a big element of their relationship. When I think of Marinette and Fu, I picture her going to him to grab a miraculous or two before booking it back to the ongoing fight and that's about it. The guardian training she supposedly had was all off screen, so we have no idea how close they were or what he even taught her outside of potion making. Even that wasn't really him teaching her something. It was them working together to figure out a puzzle because Fu never completed his own training, making it impossible for him to properly train a successor.

Strike three is the fact that - outside of the King Monkey incident - Fu never gets directly involved in helping team miraculous. He's never gives them feedback on fights or works with Ladybug and Chat Noir to strengthen their bond. He doesn't even help them track down the two missing miraculous or hand out the temporary miraculous on Marinette's behalf, a choice I still find super weird. "This fight is super hard and we need help, so I'm going to leave Chat Noir to fight alone while I go get said help!" is absolutely nonsense logic and one of the many examples of the writers desperately needing to let Marinette hand her responsibilities off. Why wasn't this Fu's job?

This brings us to fix one: if you want the guardian to be a mentor - which is a role they arguably should have - then the guardian needs to be actively involved in Marinette and Adrien's lives in an on screen way. For this to work in the context of Miraculous - a show that really wants to focus on the teen characters - then the guardian probably needs a teenage apprentice who isn't Marinette and that apprentice will be the one doing the mentoring.

My pick for this is Luka for two big reasons. The first one is that his calm personality is perfectly suited to a mentor. The second one is that it seems insane to me to have the snake be a temp holder. The snake should be watching every fight, but staying out of the actual fight so that they can use their power whenever it's needed. That's the perfect role for a mentor character to fill. Someone who is active in the plot, but only ever as a support because their power stops them from getting more involved.

Moving on to the bigger issue.

As I said up above, Fu doesn't actually get my ire. While I wanted him to be a mentor, he never once filled that role and he didn't really need to because the show already had mentor figures that it was actively using and using poorly. Those figures are the ancient magical creatures that follow our heroes around, dispensing terrible advice whenever they feel like it. That's right, as much as it pains me, Miraculous' biggest mentor failures are Tikki and Plagg.

The miraculous did not need to have magical creatures associated with them. They could have just been magical jewelry that Fu handed out and explained. Instead, the writers chose to give us the Kwamis and I don't disagree with that choice. I like the Kwmais! The problem is that they're used in the most lackluster, asinine ways you possibly could.

The Kwamis are not presented as oblivious to the world and unable to give advice. They give lots of advice! The problem is that advice tends to suck! I can think of many examples of times where the Kwamis made everything worse, but let's look at the one that grinds my gears the most: Plagg's actions in season four.

In Rocketear - the episode where Nino gives Adrien an incredibly inaccurate picture of why he knows Alya's secret identity - we get this:

Adrien: I still can't believe Ladybug entrusted Alya and Nino with those Miraculous. Plagg: Of course she did. She's the Guardian. Adrien: But they're a couple and they know each other's secret identities. Plagg: So...? Adrien: So, why does she make it a rule that we can't know each other's identities but it's okay for them? Plagg: She's the Guardian, the Grandmaster Cheese Ripener, and you and I are just cheese on the platter. She decides what's on the menu.

Hey, Plagg, maybe don't tell your clearly upset and vulnerable teenage holder to just suck it up and deal with it when he's feeling alone and betrayed? Maybe encourage him to talk to Ladybug about his feelings so that he can get the full story? Knowing that they learned their identities during the Scarlet Moth incident would probably do a lot to smooth over Adrien's hurt feelings.

What's even more rich is that the episode Kuro Neko lets Plagg go off on Marinette for not appreciating Chat Noir:

Ladybug: What's gotten into him? I didn't do anything. Plagg: Didn't do anything? Well yeah, you did! You've been neglecting a very classy piece of camemebert on your plate for too long! And as a result it got runny, and moldy! Ladybug: What? Cat Noir never gave me any camembert. Plagg: Of course not, Cat Noir is the camembert! For a while now, you've been neglecting this camembert— I mean Cat Noir, and going on adventures with the all other cheeses! Ladybug: But he should be happy about it, it gives him more time off. Plagg: Cat Noir doesn't wanna have time off, Ladybug! He is in love with you! And your persistent calling on all the other heroes has broken his heart.

Dude, if you saw all of this going on, then why didn't you say something??? You and Tikki are in the same location for multiple hours five days a week. Go tell her how your holder is feeling and figure out how to fix the situation! Or be an actual mentor and encourage Adrien to talk to someone about his feelings! At the very least, cut up a wheel of cheese, sit down, and listen to your kid so that he feels less alone!

Also what exactly do you want Ladybug to do to fix the problem you presented? Let Paris burn until Chat Noir decides to show up to today's fight? Refuse to use the temp heroes even if it means losing a fight? None of those are valid solutions when the problem presented in the episode is Chat Noir missing fights. Especially when we know that he's doing it on purpose. Why are you yelling at her instead of working with her to come up with an actual solution? You are such a terrible mentor...

To be clear, I don't think any of this is intentional. I don't think the writers want Plagg and Tikki to come across as actively hurting their teenage charges via bad advice. I think Plagg and Tikki are supposed to be seen as good and helpful, but they can't fill that role because they're tools of the narrative and the narrative has really wacky views on what good advice is. Thus nonsense like the example I discussed above or Plagg and Tikki picking new holders instead of guiding their holders through an identity reveal.

I personally adore letting Plagg and Tikki be good mentors in my own stuff. It falls under the same category as Alya and Nino being terrible friends on screen. I acknowledge the problem and then delight in fixing it by writing the exact opposite setup because what is fanfiction for if not heavy self indulgence?

[flightfoot]

Honestly i would say the backlash is more due to how the fandom (more especifically the saltdom) built this image of Marinette being this saintly figure who is so mistreated by everybody in the show while the rest get relegated either into her sheep or her enemies So seeing her making this decision seems like the perfect opportunity to turn the tables and knock off the pedestal so many people put her in.

And trust me, I also get annoyed at people who act like Marinette is this flawless character no never does anything wrong, but there's better ways to criticize her character and call out the people who do so guys.

Eh... that might be a factor, but I think it's a minor one. I'm seeing these complaints even in places that haven't been continually swamped with Chameleon salt (also did people think the Chameleon salt ever went away? It's still popular on AO3), like on reddit.

I don't think most of the calling out of Marinette's character and her decisions is just to even the scales or anything like that. The complaints I've seen are legitimate, even if I think the vitriol is sometimes a little too much.

Chat Noir HAS emphasized since Season 2, with Syren, that he wants to be brought into the loop on information. Ladybug HAS repeatedly kept things from him that she should have told him about, like that she told someone else her identity, and that she gave Rena Rouge her Miraculous fulltime and was having her help them secretly. She HAS lied to Chat Noir before in order to manipulate him into unknowingly giving his identity away to a third party. Not out of malice towards him, but because she was afraid that he would make a decision that could lead to Su Han taking his Miraculous away. But still taking that decision, and the capacity to know that there WAS a decision, out of his hands.

And then in the finale, she told him a major lie, because she was afraid of how he'd react to the truth. Not out of malice, mind you, but it's still taking away the ability to decide how to feel for himself. And with the lie she told, she ended up having the same effect as gaslighting on him (reframing the horrible way Gabriel's been treating him lately, that Adrien had identified as being horrible, as being either not Gabriel's fault or actively being evidence of Gabriel being a good father), whether or not you think that Marinette's positive intentions with her lie takes it out of that category.

These ARE legitimate complaints, and not trying to just like, do to Marinette what the Chameleon saltdom tried to do to Adrien and Alya (especially Alya, that girl has been dragged through so much racist bullshit). The criticism I've seen because of this is based in some sort of recognizable form of reality. There's a lot of negativity towards Marinette, but it's not absurd.

[thefcguy]

Miraculous Ladybug Superhero Outfits Ranking

Since Season 6 is fast approaching, and we will get some much-needed redesigns for the main hero cast, I decided to review the main superhero outfits from the past seasons and rank them according to my opinion.

Small warning... there will be a lot of salt in some of this. and I will be using some of @zoe-oneesama 's designs for Scarlet Lady as a comparison.

Without further ado... time to start this mess of a list

24- Argos

Where do I even start...

Well, I can start by saying that... NOTHING in his design works. It's painful to just look at.

The shade of green chosen doesn't clash well with the blue of the peacock. The green hair and the blue skin so close to each other makes the combo even worse.

The saturation of the blue isn't good either. If they wanted something more formal to Felix, they should have gine with a darker blue, Like Mayuras, or, Scarlet Lady's Blue blood.

My biggest problem with this design is the green, though. The moss tone, instead of some more vibrant just makes the design weird to me.

Also, why do all the Peacock holders skin turn blue when they transform? This doesn't happen with any other miraculous.

If Felix kept his hair and eye color, used a mask instead of a hood, used darker blues, and, MAYBE, some brighter shades of green, the design would work.

But this?!

It's painful to even look at it.

23- Ryuko

... Can someone explain me how a hero that has a DRAGON theme look so boring?

Just like a good majority of miraculous holders, her outfit is just a tight jumpsuit with little characterization...

Ryuko's, however, is specially bad, because, due to having the same color pallete of Ladybug, it feels unoriginal.

So, besides it being a simple jumpsuit like many other outfits I don't like, it also feels uncreative, which makes it love some points.

Besides using SL!Ryuko as a reference to what it could be... I would like to talk about one of my favorite ryuko redesigns.

One created by my friend @natedogx15 . Like, he used the fact that she was basically a knight, and made her outfit look like armor. Look at how badass it is!

It's said that canon Ryuko's design is basically ladybug's color pallete with some details to try to make it different.

22- Ladybug

This one was pretty obvious.

The suit is way too basic, especially considering that the hero behind the mask is a fashion designer.

It's also way to tight and it feels inappropriate for a girl Marinette's age to use.

It gets even worse if we remember that she was inspired by Spider-Man...

Like, seriously, this feels like a weird pajama a kid would wear. And even then, the PJ kids had better designs.

21- Chat Noir

The same problems that I have with Ladybug's design are here.

Basic and overly tight suit, that feels innapropriate for Adrien's age. And, although I think the Bell it's silly... it's what helps to keep this design from being entirely bland.

And hey, the green eyes are interesting, at least...

Still, it's not a design I like. They could have gone with something similar to Black Panther or Batman. But, instead... they chose this.

20- Miss Hound

Behold, the most uninspired design of miraculous ever!

It's literally just Sabrina's civilian outfits with a few differences. It's only a bit higher on the list because, the outfit is indeed more creative IN COMPARISON with the other hero outfits, and I like the beret.

But, seriously, Miss Hound design shows how little the show cares about Sabrina.

Her first, and main akuma, doesn't have an actual design, the second is a bit ugly, and the hero outfit is basically the civilian outfit with a new texture.

As a Sabrina Stan, I have to say... the girl deserved more.

19- Bunnix

Fun fact about me: I am a BIG Alice in Wonderland Fan. I also love this shade of blue... and that's why Bunnix's canon's design is disappointing to me.

The outfit is generic, I can barely see anything that reminds me of Alix, it has no reference to any card suit...

It just feels unispired, specially considering how good it could have been.

If it is Alice in Wonderland inspired, Bunnix could have a top hat, a coat like the white rabbits... but, it's just... nothing. inspired by Alice in Wonderland, Bunnix could wear a top hat and a coat like the white rabbits, but... there is nothing.

18- Minotaurox

Minotaurox is... an interesting case for me.

Because, honestly, I kind of like the design. Speically when people draw it on 2D.

But, a problem that the show has it's the rendering of uniform with darker colors... especially this shade of blue and black.

This colors just feel... lifeless in a way. They don't shine, or captivate... they are just there...

I just hope that, with the new animation style, the darker colors on the heroes look better.

17- Multimouse

Man, I don't get the fandom's love for Multimouse. It's not a bad design, but... it isn't good either.

I like the use of the colors, the hairstyle, and yes, it looks more creative than Ladybug's, but that's not saying much.

But, I also understand that they couldn't complicate the design too much because of how many fusions there were in the episode.

That being said... Multimouse is an acceptable design. Not amazing, but, okay.

16- Purple Tigress

Although I don't think the design is bad... it suffers from a problem of similarity.

Similar to how Ryuko's uniform looks too much like Ladybug's, Purple Tigress's looks too much like Rena Rouge.

Like, it's a lighter tone in the front, the main color of the miraculous is on the sides and back, and the character, who has her hair down on the civillian form, gets a ponytail after transformation.

Although I understand that Ponytails are probably more practical in battles... Purple Tigress and Rena Rouge's look too much alike.

I do admit I like the stripes. But, besides that, it's very unoriginal.

Particularly speaking, I like the jacket that Zoe gave her with the power up look.

15- Rena Rouge

Although it's not the worst design on the show, it's probably one of the most disappointing.

It looks too much like Volpina, and, even if Volpina's design was supposed to look like a fox holder, it doesn't mean that Rena Rouge couldn't look a bit more different.

Like, Queen Bee and Vesperia are both bee heroes. But, they look nothing alike.

Particularly speaking, I would have replaced the weird corset thing with a reporter trench coat.

Imagine a Trench Coat like this with the fox tail at the end? And the hat with the ears? I just think it would be neat.

14- Flairmidable

Flairmidable's design is one that... I don't care about.

It's very similar to Chat Noir's, it's true, but the use of colors make it more interesting. And it doesn't look as tight as Chat's uniform.

And that's what I have to say about the design.

It's not bad, but, I don't care.

13- Polymouse

Although it is a pretty generic design, there are certail elements that I like.

The change on hair and eye color, the mask, the ears on the hoodie.

And, once again, Zoe's redesigns proved that the concept could have worked.

12- Canigirl

Honestly, it's kind of a good design.

I like how it uses the colors brown, black and white to create it's combo. The mask is adorable.

And I like the detail of the black spot at the beret.

Kind of sad that her design is more creative than the one of the official Dog Hero.

11- Pigella

From now on, the designs are actually good, in my opinion.

Pigella's design is great. It's different from the usual jumpsuits, it reflects Rose's nature, and the ballerina tutu is great touch.

My only issue with it is that it doesn't feel like a Pig themed superhero.

Either way, it's one of the best female designs on the show.

10- Aspik

Although many people complain on the whole "bald thing", I don't think Aspik is a bad design.

He looks like a snake, has some cool patterns and textures on the outfit, and I like the color pallete.

Like, yeah, it would probably look cooler if Adrien showed his hair, but, it's not all bad.

9- King Monkey

It's a good design. Definetely not a jumpsuit, it has good sources of inspiration, it looks like a monkey...

It's one of the best designs on the show. It just isn't higher due to personal taste.

8- Carapace

It's a good design as well. It fits Nino's aesthetic, it's an outfit that has a clear turtle theme, and the details like the boots, and the knee and the elbow pads.

In general, it's good as well.

7- Viperion

Like Aspik, Viperion's uniform has some cool patterns and textures. But, besides them matching Luka more, his hair is the same color of his outfit, which I think it's neat.

6- Queen Bee

This design is iconic, and it has it's reasons!

The way it uses stripes, the subtle but noticeable change on the ponytail.

Out of the five, in my opinion, she has the best design.

5- Pegasus

Man, they were creative with this one.

Although his name is Pegasus, his shoes are a reference to Hermes, his uniform looks a bit like an armor (which makes sense, because he is kind of a knight), and the horseshoe on his neck.

They put a lot of effort on his design.

4- Vesperia

I used to be a bit mean with this design... but I noticed that it wasn't the designs fault, but the animation.

Like, there are scenes where the outfit looks great, and others where it doesn't. But, it's mostly because of the rendering.

The uniform is actually very creative, and it's really cool how they manage to create something so different from Queen Bee.

MY only issues are the masks and the black streaks on her hair. They... don't look that good in the show.

(If you guys want to see some cool ideas for a redesign, I recommend @nerd-chocolate 's post)

3- Rooster Bold

This design is FIRE!

The way they manage to incorporate so many Rooster details, like the claw, the beak, the comb and the tail.

Besides, it's different from every single other hero. It almost looks like a carnival costume on the best way possible.

2- Scarabella

Behold, the best Ladybug holder design.

This one feels like it's inspired by Spiderman.

The upper part looking like a jacket, the use of black, the hair... it's all so creative.

It's one of the few canon designs I don't think that could be improved.

1- Caprikid

This design had no right of being this good. But, it is.

The white and black contrast, the zipper, the fur, the horn. Just like Rooster Bold, it is also way different than the jumpuit pattern.

I only wished that they played more with Nath's hairstyle. Like, his miraculous is a pair of hair clips, and they do nothing with his hair...

But, still, out of all miraculous heroes, he has the best suit... in my opinion, a least.

[sploopyghost]

I like salt fics but i feel like some of them get blown out of proportion. I get it it's exaggerated but for some i feel like the characters are too ooc. It's fanfiction so you can make them however you want but i feel like there is a way to have a salt fic without the characters being unrecognizable

Alya is always a one of the biggest supporters of lila in salt fics but she also somehow turns into an attack dog. I get Alya took Lila's side without questioning it and easily brushed off Marinette but to an extent it kind of makes sense . Marinette is a very jealous person and always seemed to jump to conclusions when it came to Adrien. I feel like if you wanted to write Alya without making her too ooc you could lean more into her flaws of always seeming to brush Marinette off and not hearing her out without proof but never demanding proof from Lila. Alya is stubborn and would be even more so when she feels like she's right unless she's proven otherwise. For Alya to know that she's wrong it would have to be spelled out for her or the consequences would have to hit her in the face. She could start losing followers on her blog after all just because Marinette's friends blindly believe Lila doesn't mean everyone else would. They would immediately see through the already flimsy story Lila told and how stupid it is for her to be telling everyone that she has a connection to ladybug. You could write that Alya doesn't check the comments at first too excited about the number of views and instead checks it months later when her views and followers start going down. After the interview with Lila people would start to look into her while also going back to older videos Alya's made. People would eventually start to get fed up with how she presents theories as facts or just never fact check anything

Nino is someone who is easy going and goes with the flow which can be good but it can also be a bad thing. If you're too easy going and ok with going along with everyone else you'll eventually be caught up in something bad. Nino can be written as someone like this, who goes along with the majority because it's easier. Unintentionally he would choose to side with the Alya and the rest of the class about Lila even if he knows something doesn't add up or not hearing Marinette out and her side of the story is wrong. But with everyone believing Lila it would be easier to go along with everyone else until things smooth over even when he feels guilty about it

Adrien in salt fics is uncaring of Marinette's feelings and wants to keep the status quo even if that means throwing Marinette under the bus. While Adrien is naive and has no spine he still cares about his friends but he does turn a blind eye to their misdeeds and their flaws. You could write how he often excuses Chloe's behavior even when she's being mean towards them in front of him. The class would start keeping him at arms length not necessarily cutting ties with him but not spending as much time with him. They don't want him to choose between them and Chloe they just want him to stop making excuses for her and taking her side when she's in the wrong, because lets be real would you want to be friends with someone who always defends and excuses their other friends behavior when their being shitty towards you

Marinette salt is rare and there isn't really much of it, but if you wanted to write a salt fic about her you could lean into her obsessive and stalker behavior. For example the episode where she works together with Chloe to sabotage Kagami, you can write the consequences of her action for that episode. It's an event with plenty of famous people and as a result cameras. Aside from that there are a lot of people there so why wouldn't someone see what her and Chloe were doing. Someone could record what they were doing and recognize that they were going after Kagami someone who is influential. They would upload the video and it would immediately go viral. People easily recognize Chloe and already know about her history of bullying and her attachment to Adrien, so it's no surprise that she would harass the girl he's with. However no one recognizes the girl with Chloe, until people start commenting about how they go to school with her. They comment about her behavior and how she frequently does weird things to get close to Adrien and talks about the future that she's going to have with him. Afterall Marinette does a lot of these things in view of people. This would not only effect Marinette and her reputation but also her parents and the people around her since people would ask how they didn't notice her behavior earlier

[marinettesaltprompts]

Prompt by @kawaiichibiart Here's a prompt based off my favorite fanfics to read, groupchats

Marinette Salt, canon divergence:

It starts off simple, Ladybug makes a groupchat (gc for short; also this won't be brought up, but the gc does work on their civilian phones as well) for her, Chat Noir, Rena Rouge, Carapace and Queen Bee. They use the gc to talk, keeping things vague when it's about their civilian life, and to alert each other of akuma attacks.

It's all fun and games until Ladybug starts training to be the Guardian. She starts to keep more secrets and Chat Noir doesn't like being left in the dark for no reason and wants to know why she's being more secretive. Ultimately, this divides the team and as people join, they're either on Ladybug's side or they aren't.

The majority of them side with Ladybug.

The one's who don't, don't side with Chat Noir, but decide to remain neutral.

As time passes, the team gets closer and they have a system worked out.

And then Miracle Queen happens. Chloe is kicked out of the gc. Ladybug becomes the Guardian and digs her heels in deeper about the secrets she's keeping.

She becomes more snappish at everyone, yelling at them for goofing off in the chat, making the decision that the chat is for professional use only now. They had their fun, it was time to be serious. If they had a problem, she'll fire them the same way she did Chloe.

Whenever someone brings up the fact she looks more tired, more stressed, she'll retort that she'd be less tired and stressed if they were actually good teammates.

Eventually, one of them, probably Rena, probably Pegasus, makes a new gc for everyone but Ladybug. And, without a feeling of remorse, the first thing Chat Noir says is "You know, I can see why we should let Ladybug keep all those secrets, it's not like not sharing them is hurting anyone, oh wait!! 😒"

Yeah...they deserved that.

They use the second chat to have fun, still keeping things vague about their secret IDs, and to talk about how to help Ladybug.

But no matter what they do, Ladybug won't budge. The team that had once been nearly fully on her side, was now pulling away from her. She wasn't the same Ladybug. She was stricter. She held team meetings where all she did was reprimand them for not following her plans.

And anytime they bring up that maybe should tell someone at least some of the secrets she's holding, because clearly since she began keeping them she's become more and more irritated, she'll just tell them to mind their business and holds their miraculous against them, reminding them she can take it away whenever she wanted.

So, when the day comes she loses all but hers and Chat Noir's miraculous, none of them feel bad for her.

Because I don't go fully into what diverges from canon above:

• Marinette doesn't tell Alya she's Ladybug, and thus doesn't make her a permanent holder.

• She still gives Alya her miraculous when she has to leave for a while, but she ends up doing it by pulling Alya away while she's on her way to the park. In short, she throws the responsibility into Alya's hands.

• Adrien does quit temporarily, becoming Catwalker, before going back to being Chat Noir. Because he and all the temps. are repairing their bond after what had happened in the first gc, he does tell them why he quit as best as he can (feeling like he wasn't seen as Ladybug's equal, the secrets, wondering if he even had a place on the team anymore, what happened on the roof, etc.).

• Everyone definitely notices when Ladybug gives Flairmidable her full attention. And it looks so familiar to them, they just can't tell how or why.

• Unlike at the end of S4, Chat Noir isn't as forgiving with Ladybug. He'll still help her, but he doesn't forgive her.

• This part is something I'm not sure I want to happen, but I'm including it anyways incase someone wants to make it happen: she does end up losing her miraculous. Su Han finds out what happened and sees her unfit to be Ladybug or the Guardian, so he takes her miraculous (and jsyk, she doesn't lose her memories. She didn't quit or name someone else as Guardian, she was fired, so her memories are still there)

• while the first chat dies down, the second, surprisingly, is still up and going. They're not going to question it, logic left a long time ago. They're just happy they can still talk to each other.

[theerurishipper]

Just saw a post that said Adrien is a love bomber... are we really throwing buzzwords around for the sake of salting on Adrien, the abuse victim? Love bombing is an emotional manipulation tactic, and it is usually paired with the cycle of abuse. Adrien is not abusive. He is not emotionally manipulating Marinette. He is showing her affection. I guess we're demonizing showing our loved ones any sort of affection now...

Yeah fr, people will throw around all kinds of words istg. This is the definition of love bombing:

Love bombing is a tactic in which someone “bombs” you with extreme displays of attention and affection with the intent to manipulate you. Although being showered with "love" can seem positive at the beginning of a romantic relationship, love bombing can lead to gaslighting and abuse. Psychologists caution it might be a tactic used by a narcissist or sociopath in an attempt to control you.

Anyways, Adrien doesn't do this. In fact, this is what Gabriel does to Adrien. From this article:

In a relationship with a pathological predator, love bombing is combined with intermittent reinforcement to create a sense of instability and longing in the victim. Intermittent reinforcement (in the context of psychological abuse) is a pattern of cruel, callous treatment mixed in with periodic affection. The abuser hands out rewards such as affection, a compliment, or gifts sporadically and unpredictably throughout the abuse cycle. This causes the victim to perpetually seek their approval while settling for the crumbs of their occasional positive behavior.

This is exactly what Gabriel does. Whenever it seems like Adrien is rebelling against him because he is tired of Gabriel's neglect, Gabriel will offer him a little concession. Adrien is rebelling against him? Fine, let him go to school. In this way, Adrien doesn't rebel against his father anymore, and Gabriel can keep him under his control, because now Adrien will continue to believe the best of his father and will continue to try and earn his love. Another example is in Gorizilla. Adrien gets tired of Gabriel stopping him from seeing his mother's movie, and sneaks out. Later, Gabriel allows him to watch the movie, and throws in a little bit of gaslighting in there, essentially blaming Adrien for not being open with him and making him feel guilty, when it's his own fault his son didn't open up to him, which is because he's a neglectful asshat.

This is Gabriel and Adrien's relationship. Adrien stays with his father and tries so hard to please him, because Gabriel has instilled in him that love is something conditional that is to be earned. And whenever it seems like Adrien is breaking away from this mentality, Gabriel will do something "nice" for him, which will bring Adrien right back, because he's an abused child who wants to believe the best of his father and wants his love and affection.

Again, to quote the article:

As author Adylen Birch writes, “Creating fear of losing the relationship and then relieving it periodically with episodes of love and attention is the perfect manipulation.” Much like the way a gambler at a slot machine becomes addicted to playing the game for a potential win despite the risk of major loss, a victim in the abuse cycle can become attached to the idea of getting a return on their investment in the relationship despite the toll it takes on their well-being.

There's actually an example of this in the show. From Illusion:

Adrien: Speaking of which, Dad, I'm not really comfortable with having my face on all these rings. That's actually why I didn't want to be a model anymore, to avoid that. Do you understand? Gabriel: Of course, I understand, my son. But that's the point; it's just an image, it's not you! And since this image frees you from your obligations, we, the Agrestes, are able to spend more time together. But if you'd rather everything went back to the way it was before, just say the word. Adrien: (wears the Alliance ring on his index finger) You're probably right.

Gabriel even explicitly says what he's doing, which is holding the threat of going back to their previous relationship over his son's head to emotionally manipulate him. To refer back to the article, he creates the fear of losing the relationship in Adrien, and then makes a big deal of showing that he cares so much about Adrien and his future, and he makes him breakfast. This is love-bombing. And so, Adrien goes along with whatever Gabriel wants as long as he doesn't lose it. And so, he continues to do what Gabriel wants, which is to accept the Alliance rings and his image being used in ways he doesn't want. And true enough, Adrien goes back to defending his father after he finally worked up the courage to confront him for his shit in the beginning.

Adrien: My father? But Nino, he's changed, he's making an effort, and it's the first time he's coming to school!

I could go on, and there are several examples of this in the show, but then we'd be here forever. But I highly recommend that article. I just read it, and it is literally Gabriel and Adrien, oh my god. It's very informative and I think we should all be aware of this.

But anyways, back to your question anon (sorry for the tangent). Adrien doesn't love bomb. Adrien is just very affectionate. He doesn't withdraw affection from anyone, he doesn't make them settle for scraps. He doesn't try to manipulate anyone, he doesn't gaslight anyone, he doesn't try to make them seek his approval. Adrien is always kind and loving towards everybody he cares for.

In fact, Adrien does the exact opposite. He fawns over others, and he tries to earn their love and approval. This is because of Gabriel's abuse. And to accuse him of love bombing is so disgusting. Honestly, people just throw those words around like candy. But then again, I've seen what the side of the fandom that might have said this usually says, and it's usually the same victim-blamey abuse apologist rhetoric, so I'm not even surprised.

Thank you for your ask!

[kawaiichibiart]

Adrien bonding with the Gotham City Sirens is something I think I've only seen in like, two fanfics.

The first is a bio!mom Harley Quinn, bio!dad Joker fic, where Harley asks the Batfam to look after her daughter (Marinette) when she visits, because she's apparently coming to Gotham (class field trip) despite being told it was dangerous. Iirc, she and Adrien are either dating or have a sibling like relationship, it's been a while. Marinette obviously introduces Adrien to her moms and they end up bonding for a while. It was only one chapter, since the majority of the story is moreso focused on Marinette and her asking the Bats to help with the Hawkmoth or whatever he's going by, situation. And of course what the class is doing. The fic isn't done, nor has it been updated in a while, so there might have been more bonding there. I would have loved to see Ivy talk to Adrien about how her more dangerous plants liked him and slowly be the first to learn about him wielding the cat miraculous and thus, the powers of destruction (because we learn around the end of the chapter where Adrienette visit Harley that Ivy's more dangerous plants like Adrien while her other plants, such as flowers, were scared of him). Again, it's been a while, so take this summary with a grain of salt.

The other is a more recently discovered fic, and it's a dimension travel fic, where Ladybug and Chat Noir are fighting Monarch, but Monarch is winning. And as things seems to come to a bad end, Chat Noir manages to get the Rooster Miraculous back, but at the cost of breaking it. I can't remember how they entered a different dimension, if it was Monarchs doing or if Chat Noir managed to get some last use of the Rooster so they could get somewhere safe. Either way, they end up in a different universe, and more specifically, in Gotham. They decide to hide out but of course, the Bats find them. But they aren't able to find out who they are or where they came from, to them these are just some really beat up kids. Meanwhile, they quickly learn who the Bats are, thanks to: THE POWERS OF ANIMAL INSTINCTS!! Yeah, Adrien could smell them (Jason/Red Hood and Damian/Robin) and realized it was same smell. And while that's happening, Adrien also heads out as Chat Noir and meets Catwoman. Stuff happens, Selina manages to get Barbara to help her find out his secret ID, and they find out. Selina brings Chat Noir to where she, Harley and Ivy live and talks him into letting her help. He does and she reassures him that Ladybug won't be mad. She even lets him know her secret ID and let's him know she knows his, and then she learned they knew who the Bats were. Again, stuff happens. And iirc, she called dibs. You'd think I'd remember this one better, but I don't, which sucks because I love this fic.

[virgil-is-a-cutie]

How much salt do you think a salt fic should have before it becomes too unpleasent to read?

I don't mind when there's bullying, I just...dislike when it involves Mari being assaulted in THAT way that involves crazy Adrien or some of the classmates and such.

Or like...when she's having major unaliving herself feelings

It depends tbh

[ririchanva]

//Ask and you shall receive :3 Actually, a lot of you seemed to enjoy this one so I'mma continue to add some more of this :D LEZZGO~

This one will include: Middle School Drama, mentions of bullying, Happy&Healthy!Inko, Alive!Emelie, Humbled!Felix, Chloe Sugar, Kim Salt, Max Salt, Marinette still being Marinette, snippets of Derision, teensy bits of Chloe crushing on Izuku, A MAJOR BUTTLOAD of everyone crushing on Izuku, Adrien growing up into a little shit, and more~! Lemme know if I should make a part three~?

✲ || Part Un || ✲

So...previously, we've stopped on Izuku, Marinette and Chloe as little children being an inseparable trio. That is, until we get to the Agreste and Graham de Vanily family.

Canon-wise, Chloe knew of Adrien and Felix as kids. So if I'm doing my math right, this is before Emilie's "disappearance" and Felix's dad didn't get offed just yet.

In short, Chloe one day invites Izuku and Marinette to visit Adrien since her parents and his are friends.

Adrien is always happy to make new friends besides Chloe.

And it was honestly friendship at first sight when meeting both Izuku and Marinette. (It was like fate~ *gets smacked*)

Adrien immediately locks into Izuku's energy about heroes.

The two clicked much more than Izuku did with Marinette and Chloe, it sort of made the girls a little jealous.

Marinette doesn't fall for Adrien this time around

Gabriel and Emelie are introduced to Izuku and Marinette by Adrien, and honestly it surprised both the Agreste on how well behaved children they were. Especially when they were dreading they would be another Chloe.

But EVEN MORE SURPRISING was how Chloe was also well behaved around them. Where was the usually spoilt brat that loved to boss their son (and sometimes Felix) around?

Emilie wanted to meet the infamous nanny of Chloe's.

And she did...and she adored the woman too.

Emelie begged for Gabriel to hire her as Adrien's nanny too. Why, if Inko Midoriya managed to tame a brat like Chloe, Adrien could perhaps grow into a happy child as well. As much as Emilie and Gabriel wish they could spend more time with their son...their careers are at their peak. Someone had to watch over their son (Nathalie and Gorilla were already having their hands full).

Thanks to Inko's rep of being a full-time babysitter for rich kids like Chloe and Adrien, this meant that Inko's life is set.

Her mental state is at peace, no guilt about raising Izuku and worrying over their next meal and bills. This meant Inko maintained her physical body and kept herself healthy, not to mention Emelie and Sabine made sure the woman was surrounded by a good circle of friends to go out for walks, shopping and pretty much having a life. Not to mention Emelie trying to set Inko up on dates.

Meanwhile, Izuku got to be around his new friends more.

This also caused Chloe to accidentally call Inko, Mom.

"Thank you for mending my dress, Mommy!"

Inko paused from tidying her sewing kit and looked over at the seven year old girl for a moment, blinking her surprised green eyes. All she did was just fix the princess dress that Chloe had accidentally ripped when running around with Izuku, Marinette and Adrien playing pretend Knights and Dragons.

"Ah...y-you're welcome, Chloe-chan. "

Inko didn't know how to process this at first. Perhaps Chloe said it by accident. It was a one time thing...right?

Alas, Chloe continued to call her Mom , to the point that one day Chloe asks innocently:

"I want Mlle. Inko to be my Mommy."

"You can't, Chloe-chan. Because she's my Mom." - Izuku

"Well, what if Chloe and you get married? That way, Chloe could be part of the family :D" - Adrien.

"....Izuku, let's get married." "EHHHHHH?!"

Meeting Felix Graham de Vanily (as if he would keep his father's last name of Fathom) was...confusing, at first.

Izuku and Marinette, like Chloe, mistaken him for Adrien.

When Amelie meets the children, she was cooing on how adorable Izuku and Marinette were.

However, Felix wasn't impressed.

Although that all changed when Izuku played chess against him.

"You...you beat me?" - Felix

"Er, was I not supposed to" - Izuku

Either way, this impressed Adrien and Marinette, and Chloe had to gloat and laugh at Felix's defeat.

Needless to say, this sort of humbled Felix, and both he and his mother visited from time to time. And in turn, Izuku gets invited to London to visit them along with Adrien, Marinette and Chloe.

Fast forward in time, to the start of collège.

Chloe may not be Marinette's tormentor anymore, didn't mean she stayed nice to everyone.

It had to take Adrien and Izuku to stop her tirade at times.

Speaking of, Adrien manages to go to normal public school with them this time around too.

It took a lot of convincing, but it was mostly Inko talking with Emilie about how Adrien should be surrounded by other kids his age. Thus, it made Emelie also persuade Gabriel to send Adrien to school. Although that didn't stop the modelling gigs, advance fencing, language and business classes after school.

But with Chloe no longer being the school bully...someone else takes her place.

Enter Lê Chiến Kim, and his lackey, Max Kanté.

Typical jock behavior, Kim looked to his bullying as pranks. And in no way does he think what he does is wrong.

And his main target?

"Heeeyyyyyy Green Beans~"

Izuku felt the dread each time he encounters Kim, reminding him of his days with Kacchan and his little gang.

It didn't help that Marinette had a stupid crush on Kim FOR SOME REASON.

"He makes me laugh." - Marinette

Note, she doesn't know Kim bullies Izuku. Or is oblivious to it.

Then again, the bullying doesn't look like it's harming Izuku on surface level. As said before, it looked like small playful pranks.

But Chloe knew better.

And had to step in to defend Izuku, The Audrey Bourgeois way.

This caused a ripple effect of students now thinking Chloe was someone not to mess with and stay away from, but rumours of Chloe and Izuku being a couple spread like wild fire (thanks to Kim and Max). Chloe doesn't care...but Izuku did.

"We're just friends!" (Oh boy, here we go again)

Despite the rumours, Izuku managed to become popular.

He was dubbed as the "Chloe Bourgeois Tamer" considering he tends to stop Chloe from going too far on things.

The first one to extend a hand of friendship was Alix Kubdel.

"Kim's a jerk. And respect on pulling the reigns on Queen Bee over there. Wanna hang out with me and my friends?"

Izuku tries to correct that Chloe was not all that bad, but he gives up when he knew Alix wasn't listening to him

This is where Izuku meets Nathaniel and Sabrina.

Izuku notices Nathaniel drawing in his book, and his eyes shine when seeing sketches of various heroes.

"Is that All Might in his silver prime?"

Nathaniel Kurtzberg is surprised to say the least. He was expecting to be mocked or teased by his obsession with drawing heroes. He was used to being called an art nerd by Kim on the daily.

So imagine to his shock that Izuku asks for a commision from him to draw All Might.

They become close friends after that.

Sabrina Raincomprix was someone that just hung with Nathaniel and Alix quietly because she didn't know where she fits in with the class. (With Chloe not being a bully and always around Adrien, Izuku and Marinette, the two never really interacted.)

Izuku tried to befriend her, even saying he admired that her father was Chief of Police. And soon talked about things that apparently had in common such as academics and dreams of the future.

Sabrina crushes hard after the interactions, to the point that she immediately follows him around, just as she did with Chloe in canon.

"Did you want me to help you with your homework? Should I carry your bag for you? Oh! I could get your lunch for you--"

Izuku felt guilty of Sabrina practically trying to do things for him, and he tried to dissuade her from doing so.

Izuku sees Sabrina almost about to cry, not like being rejected. He could never handle girls crying.

And so, he just lets Sabrina do as she pleases.

Marinette finds this cute, and even tries to find ways to set Izuku and Sabrina up as a couple.

Which, in turn, makes Adrien also participate. Not because he thinks Izuku and Sabrina are a cute couple. But it was fun to tease Izuku's misfortune of having a girl crushing on him.

Adrien, please, your Chat is showing TOO EARLY.

Chloe, on the other hand, was furious.

"Who does this nobody think she is?!"

Unlike in canon...Sabrina actually has a backbone.

She actually gains more confidence since interacting with Izuku, especially with his pep talk on his dreams of wanting to be a hero and how his optimism rubbed off on her.

To the point that she bravely declares Chloe as her love rival.

And Chloe accepts this, because Izuku was hers.

Adrien, once more, can't help but tease.

"Wow, you're so popular..." "Be silent, Agreste..."

Bonus: For the lols, Adrien anonymously created a "Izuku Midoriya Fan Club" and it surprised both him and Izuku on how many girls joined it. It has even reached outside of Francis Dupont----

Part 3?

[nobodyfamousposts]

I remember reading a post by @critical-thinking-is-mandatory a while back about how Lila would realistically be disliked by people because of how self centered she is even if they don't think she's lying.

With this logic, Adrien's public friendship with Chloe (a school wide bully) should have a lot of people side eyeing him, if not outright avoiding him all together.

What do you think?

That's a valid point, and one that I and I think a number of others have considered.

Origins played with it but not nearly enough. By all counts, when a bully comes in with their "celebrity best friend" and parade him around the way Chloe does, there would be a mix of people being put off by him being her friend as much as there would be people impressed by Chloe being his friend.

Honestly, it would have been a more interesting setup and added extra layers to the love square dynamics if they started off going from enemies to friends to lovers. Or at least slow down and not dive headfirst right into over the top crushing.

But in that case, it would likely work better as a reverse love square. Ladybug loves Chat who is Adrien who loves Marinette who is Ladybug. Have Marinette be someon who gives Adrien a chance which builds a friendship and starts up his crushing on her.

Otherwise it would just lead us back into cringe with Marinette crushing on Adrien despite having valid reason to not trust him for being Chloe's friend or potential boyfriend.

I'm fairly certain I pointed this out in another essay/critique/salt post that they completely missed out on a potential character arc for Adrien in having him actually ADJUSTING to public school. Having him struggling to make friends with his stigma both as a celebrity and as "Chloe's friend". The effects would be two-fold.

First, it would help the Adrien salters better sympathize with him. Yes, I know there's his horrible HORRIBLE father, but storywise, the "Gabriel sucks" angle doesn't really matter if Adrien isn't having to be the one to face that. In addition, he seems to have no trouble with acclimating to a public school and making friends. Heck, he's not making friends, people are jumping over themselves to make friends with HIM. Part of what makes people sympathize with characters is seeing them try and fail and just generally make an EFFORT for what they want. Turn that around. In the hands of competent writers, this would be a setup that would do that more for Adrien. We see that in some aspects with the manga where it has Nathaniel mistake Adrien as a snob who looks down on comics and him as an artist. It would have been great to see more like that with Adrien getting to know his classmates or being the focus through which we get to learn about the classmates since he is supposed to be the new boy.

Second, it would be a stepping stone/building block to the eventual confrontation with Gabriel—which yes, should happen. Building relationships and forming HEALTHY bonds really helps to understand when other ones you have are not. (COUGHCOUGHScarletLadyCOUGHCOUGH) They can help you gain strength and courage and build a new identity for yourself. They also give you support in dealing with major conflicts. They can help him form attachments that make him NOT so willing to jump in to join his father's craziness. And they can help him become a better hero in his own right.

I'm not saying make Adrien suffer and be friendless. Far from it!

I'm saying to USE this as a plot point to develop Adrien and give him focus and room to grow. Or at least a point that ISN'T just him being half of the endgame pairing and desired by everyone in the city.

Show Adrien try to interact with each of the classmates. Show how Adrien becomes friends with others. Show how he comes to care about people who aren't there just to give him what he wants or tie him to the plot.

And yes, this would inevitably also lead in to some changes for Chloe as well...for good or bad.

[imthepunchlord]

Don't know if you still write for Miraculous Ladybug, but if you do what are your thoughts on having Adrien die? Not even in an Adrien salt way but in general I think that killing him off could lead to so many interesting paths for a ML fic to go.

It's gradual. Some WIPs I'm trying to figure out how to continue. It's just one of those things to let it stew/come back later.

As for the topic, my gut response is that it feels unnecessarily dark and it feels like angst for Gabriel and/or Marinette, potentially Chloe, Felix, and Nino too. Angst I'm not really interested in writing myself.

I will say, I did have one thought relating to Adrien's death: a reason for Sentidrien's existence.

Idk how a majority feel about the Sentikids, the little I've looked into people seem to just accept it, but I'm not crazy about these rich couples deciding they'd rather have magical feather babies they can fully control than having a kid by any other means that they can easily afford.

So Adrien's death was my answer to this choice of what Adrien was and to try and roll with it better. Adrien Agreste did exist, but died tragically and desperate, grief stricken Emilie just couldn't bear the loss and used the broken Peafowl to recreate her "perfect son".

Emilie got sick, Gabriel doesn't know how to feel about this "Adrien" who looks like his son but isn't and is the cause of Emilie's state. Meanwhile "Adrien" is being the perfect son he was made to be, is confused and hurt by his father's coldness, finds he has fragmented memories of his life and the people he supposedly has known his whole life.

And as I'm not sure a Miraculous should have a power to make actual life (especially as they can snuff it out with a snap of their fingers), I'd say "Adrien" becomes a real boy by being near the two most powerful Miraculous. Cat gradually destroys his connection to his item, and thanks to the Ladybug, it creates something new to replace it.

And it leads to a whole thing of "Adrien" starting to rebel against Gabriel, becoming alive vs the complacent doll he used to be. And "Adrien" learns he's not the true Adrien, that he's a clone made out of grief and love, and has to deal with the reality that he's a fabrication, but he's not like other Sentis either, and wonder if he's truly Adrien or does he like who Adrien used to be, does he even want to be Adrien? And you got Gabriel getting more aggravated as wtf is going on with this doll?

Part of me even thought of him deciding to rename himself Felix to establish a separation better.

But that'd be my answer for what if Adrien did die, it'd be my way to roll with Sentidrien's existence and how I would've made it work.

[flightfoot]

"Because Felix has always been presented as being either a villain or morally questionable, whereas Marinette's always been a hero."

You know that's the same argument a lot of Adrien salters use whenever they say they prefer Felix over him (that and "at least he moves the plot along unlike Adrien"), despite the very first episode he appears in having him trying to kiss Marinette without her consent (which is you know, sexual harassment? The very same thing they always say Chat Noir does to Ladybug?) And I guess I get where that argument comes from (at least before Season 5 where it seems the writers were trying to justify every bad thing Felix ever did), but there's gotta be a limit to how much someone can use that argument before it make whoever uses it looks like a complete hypocrite.

I've seen those arguments from Felinette people, I've been in this fandom a long time. Crucial difference here: when I saw it used as Adrien salt, Felix was being presented as being a substantially better person than Adrien, usually to an absurd degree, and often while deliberately punishing Adrien for supposedly being so heinous and awful.

Like if you just enjoy watching Felix more, then more power to you. That's fine, that's your own deal. But Adrien is certainly not a worse person than Felix is.

With Marinette, I'm saying that Felix tricking or concealing secrets from Adrien isn't exactly new, while he cares for Adrien to some extent, he has the same issues of making major harmful decisions for Adrien as we've seen Marinette do, but Felix's are often worse. He's got a Freudian Excuse for a lot of that stuff, but it still ain't a good thing.

"Felix is keeping secrets from Adrien that he absolutely deserves to know" is a pretty minor crime, compared to some other stuff he's done. It just kinda gets thrown on the pile.

Basically, I expect better from Marinette than I do from Felix. Especially since Marinette is dating Adrien, and is partners with Chat Noir. But while I expect better from Marinette, I'm not gonna say that Felix is a better person overall than her.

[tex-now]

Daddycop was really cute omg 🥺 I'm so glad that Sabrina is a part of the group and that some more characters got to have the spotlight this time around!!! Sabrina's new look representimg her moving on from Chloe makes me sooooo happy my heart 🥹 also can I just say that Adrien straight up refusing to go with Marinette makes me happy because he has autonomy now 🥹

(lots of "salt"under cut)

PLEASE STOP ASSASSINATING MARINETTES CHARACTER LIKE THIS IT IS GETTING OLD. HOW MANY TIMES ARE YOU GOING TO DO THE SAME DAMN THING OF "I NEED this to happen and I'm going to hurt so many people in the process of trying to get what I want or making some extremely inconvenient misunderstanding happen that ends with someone crying" LIKE HOWANY AKUMAS HAS SHE CAUSED AT THIS POINT.

STOP DOING THIS TO HER YOU ARE MAKING EVERYONE HATE HER MORE SHES SUPPOSED TO BE THE PROTAGONIST PLEASE PLEASE STOP MAKING HER RUIN PEOPLE'S DAY.

I GET IT THE FORMULA IS THAT SHE MAKES A MISTAKE AND LEARNS FROM IT BUT DOES IT HAVE TO BE THIS MAJOR??? DOES IT ALWAYS HAVE TO MAKE HER LOOK AS BAD AS POSSIBLE??? GIVE HER REPUTATION A DAMN BREAK

also please stop sending chat noir away.... I miss him and ladybugs banter... Or honestly his involvement in the story at all... Why is he an afterthought or a distraction all the time..... Pre season 4 chat noir come back to me......

AND STOP MAKING ADRIEN FEEL LIKE AN OBJECT OR SOME SIDE ROMANCE HES SUPPOSED TO BE THE DEUTERAGONIST PLEASE IM BEGGING YOU (though I will say that I like his more active role in werepapas!! I just wish there was a little more you know?)

ALSO HE ALREADY GOT HIT WITH THE ANTIKUMA DO SOMETHING ELSE

[hamsteriffic]

Miraculous Fandom Stats 2023

A Visit to Gotham

…and beyond

As promised here are my stats for Miraculous Ladybug fics on Ao3 with crossovers only. To see a snapshot for Miraculous Ladybug without crossovers click here.

📈 The data presented here is a snapshot of the Fandom on 06 Jan 2024

Don't be mad! I'm just a stats hamster.

🖤 Proportion of Crossover fics

At the time of posting, Crossover Fics accounted for 13% of the total fanfics on Ao3 (9177 works) (Fig 1A). They were predominantly featured in Batman All Media Types (5097 works) or DCU (1034 works), accounting for 68% of all crossover fics (Fig 1D). The majority of the works were rated for General (39%) or Teen Audiences (39%) (Fig 1B).

Fig 1. Proportion of Miraculous Ladybug works posted on Ao3 in 2023 [A] featuring crossovers (grey) and without crossovers (black); [B] and the proportion of all works posted on Ao3 as of January 06, 2024 (9177 works). [C] The proportion of cross-overs outside of the MariBat fandom as well as [D] the growth of the top ten fandoms in crossovers in 2023 (red) are also presented.

Excluding works from the MariBat fandom, the second highest number of works to be crossovered with ML was Boko No Hero Academia with 348 works (3%) and is also the fastest growing crossover fandom, almost doubling in works in 2023 (141 new works) (Fig 1C-D).

🖤 Top 10 Fandom Crossovers

Here are the crossovers in a Table format.

Table 1. Top 10 Fandoms in 2023 and percentage change compared to 2022.

Popular Tags used in 2023 (number of works) and percent change compared to 2022:

Fluff (246): -2%

Angst (161): -1%

Badass Marinette Dupain-Cheng | Ladybug (130): -1%

Lila Rossi Bashing (127): +1%

Alternate Universe (100): -7%

Hurt/Comfort (94): -2%

🖤 Top 5 Relationships

Fig 2. Top 5 relationships in ML crossover fics in 2023 and percentage change when compared to the year prior.

While works tagged with Adrien/Marinette has increased by 3% in 2023 when compared to the year before (Fig 2) the top 5 relationship pairings have not changed with Daminette taking first place.

Relationship Tags with Marinette Dupain-Cheng | Ladybug across all time (from Highest to Lowest):

Damien Wayne (1870 fics)

Adrien Agreste (1237 fics)

Jason Todd (806 fics)

Tim Drake (580 fics)

Dick Grayson (321 fics)

Hope this entertained you! Until 2024, same stats time, same stats channel.

Sodium Content and Methodology below the cut:

🖤 Top 5 Salt Categories

Look, Marinette is in Gotham for a reason. Usually it’s because of some sort of common table condiment/seasoning. Here is a breakdown:

Fig 3. Frequently tagged salt and character bashing tags across all crossover works prior to 2023 (green) and new works posted/updated subsequent to Jan 01, 2023 (dark blue). The change in numbers to the previous year (where present) are indicated.

Methods

Partitioning

To see changes in crossover fics in the ML fandom over time, I have tracked the number of crossovers posted to Ao3 per year.

Data was filtered by the date the fic was last posted, between 01 Jan - 31 Dec for each year.

Note that older fics may get updated, this data is only a reflection of the fandom at one moment in time. This analysis was performed 06 Jan 2024.

Filtering

Note that I have followed the Ao3 definition of a slash representing romantic relationships and & indicates platonic relationships.