#made me want to say that i wasn’t trying to critique or criticize her bc i would also find that annoying

[giantisopod7]

I haven’t seen my roommate eat a vegetable or fruit except potato since she moved in a month ago and we were at a group dinner and other friend and i were talking about our favorite greens and i asked her what hers was and she said “i don’t like many of them” and i was like “can you name one?” and she said “i don’t like this game” so i was like oh ok i hit a nerve. and i tried to apologize the next day and she just said “yeah i don’t like any comments about food” so i don’t know how to support her trying to eat them. :( I’ve asked her if she wants to go to the farmers market with me and stuff and offered berry crumbles that ive made but yeah i’m at a loss.

i mean this in the gentlest way possible: you need to eat vegetables. you need to become comfortable with doing so. i do not care if you are a picky eater because of autism (hi, i used to be this person!), you need to find at least some vegetables you can eat. find a different way to prepare them. chances are you would like a vegetable you hate if you prepared it in a stew or roasted it with seasoning or included it as an ingredient in a recipe. just. please start eating better. potatoes and corn are not sufficient vegetables for a healthy diet.

[i-d-e-g-a-f]

“demonized her by putting her in a relationship” and “being harassed for existing” yall are one to talk every kataang post i see on EVERY platform y’all are lurking saying “kataang sucks” and telling ppl to kll themselves over the ship. also demonizing her is ironic bc if she ended up with zuko it would’ve just ruined everything she went through and worked for so stay mad fucking freak 💀💀

1. Get the quote right, I said “disservices her by putting her in that relationship.” which is very different from whatever you said.

2. I can’t argue against anecdotal evidence or your experience but I can say in my experience, I’ve always seen people shit on zutara unprovoked and try to justify it with their performative activism or try to act as if it’s okay to make assumptions about someone’s character because of an unproblematic fictional ship. Also I don’t cross tag so if anything is ironic, it’s that you’re lurking in our tags when you just criticized zutara shippers for doing so.

3. Once again I said disservice not demonize, massively different. But for arguments sake tell me what did she gain from being in a relationship with Aang? Did that relationship not ruin everything she worked for? Because the Katara in ATLA was passionate and never stood on the sidelines when she saw injustice. But the Katara we see in the comics and LoK is passive and constantly sidelined to being the Avatar’s wife or mother of the Avatar’s children. Not her own person. She doesn’t even have a statue when everyone else in the gaang does. In season 1 Katara literally protests for the right to learn how to fight and in LoK we see none of the passion. What is exactly so fulfilling about her relationship with Aang? Was it him being an attentive father to their children? Oh, no that wasn’t it. So tell me, would being with Zuko really ruin everything she’s worked for, because it seems like being with Aang already ruins that quite successfully. Katara basically becomes an accessory to Aang which, yes, I would say disservices her! Especially when we’re shown that she is capable of having relationships with people based on mutual respect, compassion, and mutual emotional support. Relationships where they are equals and one is not an accessory to the other. Relationships where they respect each other boundaries and don’t act entitled to another’s affection.

But you know what’s even crazier is that at the end of the day none of that even matters because that is just what I prefer and you don’t have to agree! My problem lies within the fact that I constantly see anti zk’s assert that zutara is an inherently problematic ship or that people who enjoy the ship are problematic or are just hysterical women. Those assumptions are problematic and unfounded and if anything perpetuate misogynistic stereotypes about women being not knowing which man is actually good for them. It also requires an incredible amount of cognitive dissonance to arrive at those conclusions because the people who argue that Zutara shippers only like Zutara because they want a bad boy will talk about how Zuko has a great redemption arc in the same breath. We truly cannot have watched the same show, watched Zuko say “Hello, Zuko here” if they think the appeal of Zutara is that Zuko is a “bad boy.” However, even if it was, that still wouldn’t justify the constant negative assumptions made about the people who enjoy the ship, or the way those generalizations about zutara shippers are used as a way to delegitimize zutara (ad hominem fallacy). I fucking hate kataang and I am open and honest about that, but I don’t go around saying the actual people who ship kataang are problematic or are all secretly incels because that is a ridiculous and unfounded generalization. I hate kataang so I will critique kataang, not try to discredit its shippers in an attempt to make the ship seem less legitimate. I cannot say I’ve seen anti zks and the general fan base behave similarly.

I can’t speak for the anti kataangers in kataang tags because fun fact i have it blocked because i don’t like it! But I will say, although i do not condone going into other ships tags to instigate, there a massive difference between shitting on a ship versus shitting on the people who enjoy a ship. And mind you, I noticed the pattern of people shitting on zutara fans long before i even became a zutara fan. This is a trend amongst this general fan base that flares up anytime new atla content is released and I was venting about it on my page as someone who is tired of it. It is my god given right to vent about a fictional couple I don’t like on my page and to vent about the fandom discourse trends I notice. If you notice different ones and want to vent about make your own goddamn post, don’t act like a coward and send anon hate just because you disagree with me. I have my opinion and you’re entitled to yours. You have your own experiences with this fan base and I have mine. If your upset, vent about it on your own goddamn page instead of accosting me with your dumbassery.

[saint-renatus]

Honestly, I don’t get how people can’t understand that otome isekai is literally for wish fulfillment and self inserting not for being “realistic”😭 rest under the cut bc I have so many opinions.

The criticisms are always like “why doesn’t the protagonist ever miss her family” “why don’t they struggle without the use of google”(and yes this is a serious critique I’ve seen made) this is supposed to be a fantasy of being reborn as a rich lady with hot guys all over her this is obviously not made to be realistic. That’s why kill the villainess does nothing for me (no shade if it’s a favorite of yours), it’s commentary/satire of the genre falls flat because the purpose of isekai is not to show the main character struggling and being depressed. The purpose is escapism. It critiques otome isekai on something it was never trying to be and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of why these works exist in the first place. Kill the villainess feels like it was written by someone who didn’t bother trying to understand what they sought to critique and thought the people who read it were too dumb to understand that it wasn’t realistic. Commentary and subversion of tropes and media best work when they are made by people who actually like the original pieces of media because they’re the ones who are going to be aware of what is worthwhile critique of it. In making coherent criticism of a piece of media, you generally have to base them on what that work is going for, not whatever thing you wanted to see that contradicts the story and it was never written to be. When people were praising it like “finally! a realistic reaction to being isekai’d” to me, it sounded like when people on twitter go “What about a superman movie where superman has a realistic character arc and is corrupted and turned evil?” like do you even know what media you’re consuming right now? Do you know why people like it? What purpose it serves? What it’s trying to be? Kill the villainess is so ineffectual to me because it doesn't critique or satirize any actual issue of OI. I know it has the yandere male leads but so do hundreds of other novels and manhwa, trying to escape a psycho male character is the plot of so many other OI and KTV adds nothing to the topic. Sympathetic second female lead/heroine? Done already and arguably better. It hinges on a such flimsy premise and people act as if it's groundbreaking even though it misses the point because so did they.

I hate how women can’t have their wish fulfillment or badass power fantasies without someone whining because the female lead hasn’t tried to kill herself or been abused and it isn’t rEaLiStiC enough. Of course it isn’t, women get enough of watching female characters suffer on screen for the sake of realism maybe we just want to come home and read a silly story sometimes about a princess who falls in love with a knight and can heal people with magic or whatever. Men can get all the power fantasies they want in their media and have it go without any heavy criticism or great demand for realism but how dare women have nice stories where they’re not suffering constantly and yearning to get back to their shitty families/lives and can fall in love in a new fictional world more romantic than the real one. Watching people gush over miserable media simply for the fact that it is miserable and call it realistic just because the female lead is suffering and the male lead gets to do whatever, and use it to shit on the stories that women wrote in order to give some reprieve to what we already go through — the stories this genre is for — is so bleak.

Furthermore I hate the takes about how “everyone thinks these otome isekai worlds are better because magic but they’re actually suuuper lawless and dark” like no. People wanna live in these worlds because they are magical, fluffy, romantic settings where cliches can thrive, evil is always vanquished and the story is simple. It would be like saying “everyone wants to live in these beautiful disney movie kingdoms but they’re actually so dark, they’re based on medieval times so obviously even though you can see it’s only loosely based on those times, the world MUST be exactly like the dark ages. And look how they let evil sorceresses and flynn rider (convicted thief) roam around, clearly it’s a lawless land.” In most (not all) cases, it’s literally just a highly idealized setting for romance, defeating evil and living happily ever after.

It’s fine if self inserting or wish fulfillment isn’t your thing but to be blunt — find a new genre because otome isekai isn’t constantly referencing otome games for no reason. It’s self insert material. This genre wasn't and still really isn't for “realistic” tales and I don’t see the point in pretending that it is and complaining about the lack of it. That’s not to say I dislike realistic stories as a whole, just that they’re not really what otome isekai is for. I refuse to believe that people are just all around too oblivious to understand what these stories are for, I kinda just think these people make these complaints because most of the manga/manhwa is low hanging fruit and can be critiqued easily because they’re not challenging works. These people can say that they long for a more complex story with such and such subversions but those stories already exist and these people don’t seem to care to read or discuss them instead. And of course not, because those pieces of media are actually challenging and why put in the effort when you can pretend to be smart and enlightened by making pointless critiques of cliche stories? Why actually read complex media with subversions and topical commentary when you can make sure everyone knows you’re a super smart media critic by complaining about a story which never intended to be anything but silly wish fulfillment?

[antiloreolympus]

10 Anti LO Asks

1. can i just get ANY recs for a hxp story where hades and demeter are actually nice to each other and persephone's relationship to her isnt demonized? i dont care if its a one shot fanfic, ill take anything at this point.

2. idk why but the floating crowns is such a silly idea. if it was an aureole effect thatd be one thing and make mythology sense, but its a physical item that just floats there? like is it like the sims plumbob, why is it floating.

3. is it just me or does everyone in LO seems awfully stiff now? I'm not going to pretend the art was perfect earlier on but at least it seemed like they all moved pretty normally, but now they all seem so awkwardly positioned and rigid, like cheap paper dolls over actually living in the world they're in. its kinda odd looking.

4. So when Hades yelled at Zeus and pulled his tie all I could think was, "Wasn't Hadess violent behavior on Persephone's behalf supposed to be a flaw?" Wasn't the whole arc with the photographer whose eye he ripped out meant to be a step in Hades not being violent when he perceived Persephone as in danger. Zeus didn't even raise his voice he just asked a question. Him intimidating Thanatos only made it worse. Couldn't he have pulled out a chair himself or asked a bailiff.

5. lo persephone is basically pink diamond from steven universe. she's a spoiled, pink brat who acts like a child and feels entitled to so much because of their high status, has everyone instantly fall for them, anyone against them is evil unless they bend to her wants, is the most overpowered and rare being, is considered the most beautiful/amazing, and is never held accountable because they "had good intentions" and "didn't mean it". theyre both even excused for how much death theyve caused!

6. what i dont get is the stans say "its just a silly story dont look so into it 🙄" and its like?? bc rachel is trying to make it a deep story with overarching plots with stakes with world building and characters arcs with the fans claiming as such??? yet shes not doing any of that well?? so the fans want us to take it seriously as this deep, thought-provoking piece demanding respect, but at the same time says we cant discuss it and its not that serious so dont critique it? which one is it then?

7. I don't know why Zeus is being treated as the bad guy for suspecting that Persephone might have ulterior motives. He's already worried that she might be a fertility goddess,  and after the act of wrath he also doesn't know what else she could be hiding. And besides, he has good reason to be paranoid: both his father and grandfather were overthrown so that fear is obviously going to always be on his mind.

8. even rachel herself say "you have to hold all your criticism until LO is over" and first off that wont be for another 5 years at the glacial pace she drags everything out, but it doesnt matter if LO has the greatest ending ever (which it wont) that wont correct every awful writing and art choice made before then. plus we know even once its done theyll still say criticism isnt valid with more excuses. They just dont want criticism, period. It's so pretentious to think critique is premature.

-----FP Spoilers/Mention-----

9. Fp spoilers

I hate how filler is just…happening??? Like now we have to “wait 2 days” till the next trail arc mess and it just goes to drama/fluff and I’m like??? Are you kidding me?!

Like Demeter is still chained and Persephone is going with hades gods know where and like it makes me angry because it should be the opposite. Persephone should be with cuffs and seen as more of a threat than Demeter because she legit did the crimes! Jesus! Like let’s go onto day 2 and get to the chase! We do not need filler in here! 

10. Nitpicky fast pass spoiler for 182: Loukoumi/Turkish Delight wasn’t a common treat in Ancient Greece, it was popularized in the 19th century. Why the hell is Persephone talking about it in 182?? There are more appropriate desserts/sweets for her to receive like; any kind of fruit that isn’t pomegranate, melomakarona (honey cookies), amygdalota (almond cakes/cookies) even baklava. But alas, I’m giving RS too much credit and being too optimistic to think she’d actually do research

[prompts-adrien-sugar]

@ Salters Please Get This Through Your Heads

I see y'all seem to think that for some reason the show runs on the whole "protagonists and antagonists can't be flawed" cause for some reason most character fixated salters get some weird ass hateboner for dragging characters through the dirt with their salt. Like guys, we get it, you don't like characters with flaws or layers and it sure as hell shows through y'all's art, fics and reviews. And the worst part about this is that in the content you create, you constantly either replace their good qualities on a character you want to amplify bc they're your go-to martyr (I.E. alya's good qualities going to chloe (or some occasions lila and to the person who uses this trope constantly You Know Exactly Who You Are.) and making her lila's lackey or taking Adrien's good qualities and implementing them onto luka and then making adrien a harrasser and abusive. Like what are y'all on. You know full well that this isn't true so why do y'all do it. And don't give me the bs about "canon divergence" cause that does not apply in any shape or form to what y'all do. that trope literally means au and what y'all do constantly aren't aus, they're needless character bashing and my god, i have almost a whole list of salters who constantly try and say this bs, like you don't get the gist of it at all. Most of the time all y'all do is cry and whine about how the show isn't going the way y'all want and i'm like, "but that's how a show is supposed to go?" i'm all for making jokes/roasts about my fave character, or villain aus, but the way y'all do it isn't in good fun or lightheartedness it's deadass just malicious intent all the fucking time from the thinly veiled racism to the watering down of abuse, bc when ppl make those fun aus y'all seem to think they're salt because that's all y'all do everytime a new ep comes out, just needless bashing no one except salters partake in unless it's thinly disguised so even unwitting ppl get sucked into it.

It's not constructive criticism, it's not critiquing in the slightest and it sure as hell isn't good when it doesn't have a leg to stand itself up on other than the pure basis of chameleon salt which from the getgo, wasn't even all that bad of an ep, sure most things were a bit off but that was bc it was exaggeratted which again, for some reason y'all don't seem to get, but of course that episode was the catalyst that started the domino effect of the rise of salt but like, come on it was one. fucking. episode. Please get over it. Its been i don't know 2-3 years since it aired and if you're still doing salt that relates or is loosely based off of it (and don't try to say bs like we don't do that anymore bc that episode was literally the root of y'all's vitrol and the start for y'all to start spewing this mindless bullshit like the whole mari moves to a new school/city prompt and then yall mistake fanon for canon and vice versa when in actuality its not cause i remember one post saying "canon adrien is douchey and fanon is respectful like thats true) i don't know how to tell y'all this but y'all have a serious rent-free problem and this could lead up to worse problems with the fandom cause almost no one except y'all can stand salt anymore.

Edit: Ok so I got yet another annoyance in my comments a while back so I gotta say this, if y'all think I'm mistagging, I'm not. This is actual critiques but I guess since it's calling out the bs the salters pull time and time again without learning from other people that what they're doing is wrong, it's a bad thing, isn't it. Well I gotta say it isn't. Like ffs most ppl in the fandom are tired of the rampant salt that hails itself as critiques so when ppl go and call them out y'all get mad and say that I'm mistagging even though this is salt? Really? Are y'all that attached to salt that y'all are making it a personality trait now, it's sad my gosh.

edit #2: ok i know i came off as rude but here's the truth, i can't be the only one who can't stand the obsession with negativity in this fandom, like y'all have a serious problem constantly pulling this bs and searching for ppl who like the show just to rag on them seriously? please just get it through that some ppl are tired of the ooc salt that y'all base on non existent characteristics. the characters y'all are talking about don't exist. yall made them up and implemented them onto existing characters who are nothing like how yall made them out to be.

[hadtochangemyurlquick]

you have said that you know how s2 will end and i would like the spoilers please

okay so i wrote the post you're referring to awhile ago and i don't really stand by it entirely but i'm gonna give you some thoughts.

thought one: the wilds is saying something. it is making a statement. it is not just a show about teenage girls making out and being on a deserted island. there's more to it.

thought two: figuring out what the show is saying is key to understanding what will happen

thought three: the show is definitely saying more than one thing but there is an overall message we can use as a lens to predict where the show will go in general. no specifics, but at least to figure out the arcs of each character

my biggest question since starting the show, literally since the first episode has been: so. what?

like, what is the point of this show. why. what are they saying?

if they're trying to be an anti-feminist, "feminism is going too far, sjws suck" kinda thing, they're not doing very well. one of the top reviews is literally: "More Social injustice propaganda thrown in our faces."

so their theoretical target conservative audience doesn't seem to be biting. i'm not saying a liberal show Can't have a message that feminism has gone too far these days, but i Am saying a smart good liberal show can't have a message that feminism has gone too far these days.

And the wilds is probably some of the best writing i've come across in a long time, especially with the accuracy they depict teenagers.

so it's not anti-feminist. but maybe it's more specific than that. maybe it's anti-white feminist. after all, gretchen is white, she abuses children of color, and she's a feminist. doesn't that make for a perfect white feminist?

except that doesn't make a huge amount of sense either, huh? bc gretchen's staff, just running the numbers, is half white people and half poc.

Gretchen, Thom, Alex, Faber

Audrey, Susan, Lihn, Young

even looking at her supporters: alice and leonard, we have a white guy and a black woman.

and would it be less racist if gretchen didn't have any poc on her island? she would argue it'd be more racist. i'm sure in her mind she was trying to be diverse, not to abuse children. bc she doesn't think it's abuse bc she's got the lights on but no one's home.

so white feminism as the critique this show is making just doesn't. it doesn't make a lot of sense to me either.

so then it's like. what. terfism? maybe? and like, that tracks a little closer. but it'd be weird if a show's entire critique was terfism and there was literally not a single trans person on the entire cast. like maybe dot or nora will have an arc coming to terms with a sexy new gender but. idk bro. it just feels off to me, you know? it's still like, you made an entire show on a major platform criticizing a specific aspect of feminism that's not even that widely known? that's the point of the wilds?

maybe i have good place brain rot, or she ra brain rot, or some other type of brainrot and just expect my morals to be handed to me on a silver platter.

but it's still like. what was the fucking point. why make gretchen an evil feminist villain who abuses children?

this show is too smart and well written to just be that dumb. there's gotta be some justification, some deeper reason why they'd make a show just to point out that lord of the flies wasn't just about british rich boys, it is about all of society and feminism is wrong.

like take black panther for example. as much as i enjoyed it way more than any other marvel movie i've seen, it was still--essentially--dumb. this is an ice cold take but obviously killmonger was a good guy. the rich execs made him a bad guy like every rich person makes every radical revolutionary a bad guy so the good guy can create change but only in a way that encourages people to create change within the corrupt system we all live in.

but marvel is not particularly known for its writing. it's a superhero franchise, it hasn't taken itself very seriously since guardians of the galaxy. its goal is to get you to spend 15$ in a theater watching billionaires blow each other up while wise cracking with some of the prettiest visuals money can buy. it's not supposed to make you think and that's okay.

but the wilds feels like a show that wants you to think. with the careful way they handle eating disorders to the complexities of the sibling relationships, the characters are more than just wise cracking billionaires taking off their shirts the first chance they get.

so why. why. i'd understand evil feminist gretchen if it was the latter but why put so much energy into writing this complex well done show if their villain and thus their message was just gonna be: haha feminism too far these days.

here's the only thing i can come up with, my friend.

class.

yeah i fucking know, there's nothing in the show, but bear with me. all of the people working for gretch are rich, or present as rich. or at least of a higher class.

except for one.

lihn might be getting a fancy education but she works at a bar while she's doing it, and it doesn't seem like she's that close with her parents anymore. her trauma would likely cause some major health problem so i'm not having an issue with thinking that maybe, financially, our lihn wasn't doing excellently.

and to have lihn be straddling these two worlds, as she effectively straddles girlhood and adulthood working as the confederate, makes a large amount of sense.

gretchen doesn't want to upend the actual system, which is capitalism, she wants to upend the patriarchy--which is a product of capitalism. lord of the flies was, in a large part, about class. so looking at that we might see a boys island act similarly to a girls island, especially if they keep the class diversification the same for the boys.

what's also interesting is that young is not really of the same class as faber. gretchen talked about him being on that "gin soaked sofa" or something like that, and that could track if we continue to see him help the girls.

idk i'm just. i'm definitely grasping at straws here. but i have no idea what this show is saying and it drives me crazy.

why is gretchen their villain? why is she a feminist doing this for feminist reasons? it's so dumb, i can't believe they wrote it. so why did they write it. why. what am i missing here.

maybe it's something about parenthood? gretchen's a bad parent and it's a critique of the nuclear family? but couldn't they have done that without the evil feminist aspect?

like that's what gets me. what's the point of the evil feminist aspect. why include that when it was so unnecessary and honestly shoe horned in. i could've written something in ten minutes without the weird antifeminism aspect, and definitely they're better writers than me so what's the point of gretchen's motivations

what. is. the. point.

[kaypeace21]

i LOVE your analysis especially byler ones so please don't take this as hate, it's the last thing i want to do. but while i love the byler theories do you actually think the duffers are smart enough to realize the potential/brave enough to follow through on the relationship. bc tbh i think our viewpoint is skewed i don't think anyone but byler shippers see the canon possibility. and also it really seems like m/leven is going to be endgame? just wanted to know more of your thought process

Even if byler never happens- I’m 100% sure mileven won’t be endgame XD. Regardless of byler, Mike and El are just not going to happen. (Even if they’re ‘dating’ in s4). I could try to explain the reasons why I think byler will be endgame though. I’ll give the cliffnotes version. This will probably be a mess- because focusing on all the reasons isn’t as good as analyzing , each reason as it’s own separate post, in depth). 

Why mileven isn’t endgame

- The duffers said, while filming ST, El was supposed to die in s1 (glad that didn’t happen). And this was also their plan when pitching their show ‘Montauk’ (later retitled ST), saying that the hypothetical  s2 sequel would be about the boys returning to their town 10 years later. Mileven was never ‘planned end-game’. They also describe mileven kissing but never mention the word ‘love’ like how Jancy was described in the Montauk pitch. Nancy’s bio says “ she will experience love for the first time.”  But when they describe mileven, they say, “If Mike is the Elliot of our show, Eleven is our “E.T.” Like that’s … not romantic, Duffers. And if it was supposed to be … WTF did you guys watch the same film? 0-O

- In the byler centric s2, the Duffers kept mileven separated. And the mileven kiss wasn’t written in the show. Millie pretty much said “they had to do it.” Much to Matt’s confusion but then the Duffers agreed. And used ‘every breath you take’ (a song about divorce), and just by coincidence their 2nd back-up  song was also a song about a divorce? Nah, they were trolling.

- Most of the women (Nancy & Max) in the show critique Mileven saying Mike treats her as if she’s stupid, can’t take care of herself, or as she is a possession. 

-in the first ep of s3 almost all the guys (who had/have gfs) Hopper, Lucas, and Dustin all criticize the mileven relationship and think it’s unhealthy.

Hopper says “ They’re spending entirely too much time together… It is constant.It is constant! Okay? That is not normal, that is not healthy! ”

Lucas mocks Mike, saying “ Oh El, I wish we could make out forever and never hang out with any of our friends.”

Dustin says when they flake on him, “It’s bullshit, I just got home!” (insert Nancy calling Stancy ‘bullshit’)

and before this  Dustin talks about Romeo & Juliet (while mileven is out of frame). R&J is all about the dangers of not knowing the difference between love and infatuation. Juliet after Romeo is banished just complains about how in love/sad she is but never pursues looking for him (sound familiar)? R&J claimed that they were in love with each other after knowing each for a few days and deciding to get married-sabotaging the closest relationships they had with their friends/family (all in the name of ‘true love’) . Similarly Mileven thought they were in love after only a week of knowing each other, and the second they are reunited they start dating and spend all their time with each other. El is allowed out of the house (and her friends are allowed to visit), but El hasn’t interacted with Max nor Will? They spend almost everyday in her room just making out. Mike puts very little effort into integrating her into his life or as part of the group. The only time they go out- is for Mike to show off El to Dustin like a possession- then before El can even do the boding activity with the group (with the radio tower)- Mike convinces her to leave to make out. They are both complicit in this and they both bring out the worst in each other and they make each other blinded to their loved ones’ feelings.

- El literally asks Max “How do I know what I like?” Do I have to explain why this could be problematic? She even says “I don’t know”, when Max asks if Mike is a good kisser.You can call me ‘ableist’ my abused-autistic ass will disagree. But El is not ready for a romantic relationship! it makes perfect sense for El to be confused by the distinctions of romantic, platonic, and familial love- when the first 12 years of her life she didn’t receive any form of love , PERIOD! And she is not like normal abuse victims (she has never had proper socialization with peers her own age or even adults).All she had was television. She latches herself on to anyone who is kind to her (something I used to do). Without Mike she used Max as a replacement almost immediately, and even starts repeating/mirroring the things she says (specifically coping phrases from her …over 6 times!). She’s also susceptible to doing what others say or want her to do, “dumping his ass” (with Max’s validation and encouragement). El might love Mike but I don’t think it’s romantic, she latched on to the first person that was kind to her. Before their first kiss she asked Mike “Will you be like my brother?” And she’s hurt when he says “no”, asking “Why not?”. He then kisses her (she watches a lot of soap operas and she assumes it must be ‘romantic love’). You’re telling me that if she was ‘in love’ with Mike she would have been that happy over dumping him? I’m not saying El is dumb for not being able to discern these things (I think people without such backgrounds may still struggle with this concept). But it makes perfect sense for El to be confused by the distinctions of various loves or even the differences between ‘crushes’ , ‘physical attraction’ and ‘romantic love’ 

- In the last ep El asks about what he said at the cabin to Max, specifying “you talked about your feelings?”. He says and I QUOTE “Oh! Oh, yeah that.Man, that was so long ago. Um…”  and starts to scratch his head. Then he excuses what he said at the cabin, saying it was “in the heat of the moment stuff and we were arguing… I don’t actually remember. What did I say exactly?”  

Now either he legitimately forgot! Or he lied! You know the thing that broke them up in the first place! The one thing that El holds as her most important value in life- honesty. And he lied- about something as important as his romantic feelings?!  Make up any excuse (about being shy/character flaws all you want), but this isn’t real life- it’s fiction (everything is done for a narrative purpose). That wasn’t an accident ( mileven wasn’t “written out of character”- like milevens claim,  the duffers were criticizing the ship on purpose) .And the fact he lied again! Wouldn’t bode well for a long term relation with each other. The whole season, criticized their romantic relationship ! That wasn’t a coincidence neither was the fact he looked confused by her confession, and kept his eyes open the whole time and didn’t kiss her back . 

And as she smiled and walked away, he looked confused. That wasn’t a directing mistake, like so many milevens are claiming! You really think they wouldn’t make sure their ‘fav ship’ didn’t have a good final kiss? 

 Especially since it was right after a romantic Jancy scene (which was directed amazingly)- where Nancy even mentions Mileven- to make us compare the 2 pairings romantic scenes even more. 

* I know I sound like an assh*le but I’m just annoyed. I’ve always censored my byler posts trying not to offend/criticize mileven. I never cross tagged my byler meta with the hashtag mileven (never will, cause it’s rude). But (without sounding pompous) my byler posts generally gets reblogged a lot- and now the milevens have seen my posts (and are sending lots of hate my way) and worst of all they’ve invaded the byler tag. Today I saw 2 posts in the byler tag saying. “We’re delusional” and “stupid”- and also in the same posts they say they “feel attacked” by us.Um… there’s a difference between byler shippers privately criticizing a ship without bothering mileven shippers (and only tagging it byler) . Versus Mileven shippers  tagging things byler (and ranting about the ship and it’s shippers). Loved the comment about how Mike can’t be bi cause “he loves El too much”.I think Mike is probably gay and in denial. But, um that’s not how being bi works- didn’t know  bi people love women and men ½ as much as the gays/straights. Thanks for informing me (rolls eyes for eternity).So kid-gloves off, nothing left to lose! Time to compare the ships.

‘The breakup’ vs ‘fight’ parallel

comedic vs dramatic! The casual sunny day vs the dramatic framing of the storm (a romantic trope) . The ‘break-up’ being a scene with multiple onlookers vs the fight being with Will and Mike only (making it more personal/intimate).  ‘Cold as ice’ playing after the mileven breakup vs the sad instrumentals playing during the byler fight. The comedic after-math at the mall. El and Max laughing, and another joke being made as the bus leaves.El’s happiness vs Will’s heartbreak.

Mike’s drastically different expressions after their fights. He looks regretful with Will, and almost annoyed with El dumping him.  The fact Mike apologized right away more than once to Will, and ran into a storm to apologize a 2nd time. But with El he just lies to cover up the first lie, and then after the break-up he just complains/lounges on the couch (not taking any responsibility). He literally says about El “Why is she treating me this way? What did I do to deserve this? What did I do wrong?”.( He lied and made her feel “like garbage”!) Then he burps and laughs about chips- and makes sexist comments. Neither EL nor Mike are heartbroken by the breakup.

But when he angers Will (by him trying to finish the game early), he immediately tries to de-escalate saying softly “I was just joking- c’mon, let’s finish the game”. But when Will just yells back (much to Mike’s confusion) he doesn’t dismiss his feelings as irrational (like he wrongfully did to El) but chases him to the garage-  and begs him to stay since it’s raining.

In the garage, Mike immediately apologizes saying “I said I was sorry, alright. It was a cool campaign.” But after this, they fight and Mike runs into a storm to apologize a second time , and says to Will’s door “ WILL! I’m sorry I was being an asshole. Can you just come outside and we’ll talk? WILL!” He immediately takes responsibility and apologizes. And he’s desperate to resolve things. And when they find him outside castle Byers he just asks  (Mike’s catchphrase) “Will, Are you ok?”

Shed scene ( “best thing I’ve ever done” vs “the most important thing in the world to me”) parallel

When Mike says to El  “you’re most important thing to me” in the pool shed. El doesn’t even acknowledge the comment (and neither should the audience- cause the words were empty). She completely ignores his words, and responds by asking him about his previous comments. Asking whether Hopper was right about them spending too much time together.

I didn’t edit (or delete any scene after his proclamation) this is how fast it was delivered ! The framing of this mileven scene was not cinematic or heartfelt, and neither was the delivery from Mike. He’s not crying, trying to reach her with proclamations of his genuine feelings. There’s no dramatic music, framing, lighting or shot composition. And El just responds and cuts his supposed ‘true feelings’ off- only to agree with Hopper and says “ she should spend time with her own species.” And if this ‘romantic moment’ wasn’t already undermined enough. This is when Mike realizes she was spying on him , and feels wrongfully violated (something she doesn’t apologize for,  saying “I make my own rules” . He even brings this up in a later episode (this clearly bothered him)!

Juxtaposed to the MUCH longer byler scene. A literal single tear falling down his cheek as Mike , recounts the first day they met. Mike being in the back drop of darkness only his face being illuminated (having him appear like a guiding light to Will). Saying “ I felt so alone and  so scared… but you were alone too” (alone together/crazy together) .  He then talks about asking Will to be his friend, and then he pauses and breaks eye contact , before looking him in the eye and smiling (lost in the memory) saying softly “you said yes, you said yes.” (cough like saying yes at a wedding).

So, after he says “you said yes, you said yes.” It’s important to mention that he takes a deep breath and breaks eye contact again, (looking down and to the side) as he says this line. Subconsciously, I believe he knows this line is romantic and he’s too afraid to say it to his face. Only flicking his eyes up to look at Will  after he finishes the entire sentence, and to gauge Will’s reaction.

This whole monologue is only of tight shots of just their faces (their bodies aren’t shown like in the pool shed scene). This is a personal moment between them and them alone- and the fact we zoom in on their faces (expresses this to be important emotionally) . And when we see Will’s reaction to Mike saying “it was the best thing I’ve ever done”. We just see Will’s face only- no music is playing and all we hear is  Will’s whimpers and Mike crying in the background.

“ Blank makes you Crazy” vs “ Crazy Together parallel

When Mike tries to confess his “love” to El he says “Well they do say it makes you crazy”… much to El’s confusion.He has to try to explain it a second time to El- who just gets even more confused, by his ‘confession’. Saying “you never heard that expression? Like blank makes you crazy … like the word (love)?”

But when Mike says he “feels like he’s going crazy” Will immediately responds with “Me too”. Mike even smiles at the comment. So that moment in s2 means more than we think, when Mike (with tears in his eyes) smiles at Will’s comment and asks them to go “crazy together”.And when Will responds back “yeah, crazy together” (who also has tears in his eyes). They even linger on the moment as they just smile and stare at each other.

Mike is in denial, and may not even realize he loves Will, but he knows subconsciously that he does. He heard the phrase “love makes you crazy and that damn stupid”, 100′s of times and that’s why he said that phrase to Will. And why it made him so happy when Will reciprocated , by saying “ yeah. crazy together.” In addition to why we see them both go from happy, to immediately upset over the conversation.The scene was already romantically coded in s2 (but the scene in s3 re-contextualizes the whole thing) . Mike thinks “love makes you crazy” , and he asked Will to go ‘crazy together’ with him. And When Will is at castle byers looking at the Halloween pic of the 2 the day Mike said that, Will cries and calls himself “stupid” (4x). Can’t get more obvious… Like look what the duffers did! 

El and Will’s opinions on Mike (Parallels)

-When asked if Mike was a good kisser,  she just said “I don’t know he’s my 1st boyfriend.” (implying she’s thinking, at least subconsciously, of having other boyfriends ,who are not Mike in the future).  But when Mike pretty much asks’ if Will thought they’d never get girlfriends, and spend the rest of their lives with each other’.Will just sadly responds “yeah, I guess I did. I really did!” Unlike, El, Will always saw Mike as his future, his forever.

-And when Mike says “it’s just a break” , Max says “No it’s not!”, and we see El laugh along with Max’s comment. She is not heartbroken at the idea of never getting back together with him, romantically. Right after they break up she was laughing, reading comics, and playing games with Max.

But Will is devastated over the fight! And out of all the memories in Castle Byers it’s the Ghostbusters photo from Halloween that causes Will to pick up the bat and start destroying everything. That was the night that Mike agreed to go “crazy together” with him. He tears it in ½ right in the center where Mike and Will are. He was so stupid to think it meant anything. The “crazy together” scene, that Mike initiated in s2 was always meant to be romantic. Not only because of Will’s reaction to the photo in s3, but because Mike in s3 says “They do say it makes you crazy…blank makes you crazy.”  Which is exactly what happens to Will, as he has his breakdown.Castle byers was built on a rainy night , the same day Will’s dad left, when Will was 5 (the same age he met Mike). And lonnie called him a “queer” and a “f*g” and forced him to do “normal things” like baseball to have him “be more of a man”. And then on a rainy night, after Mike says “It’s not my fault you don’t like girls”… what does Will destroy castle byers with? A baseball bat! The fact Will has a baseball bat (despite in s1 saying he does not like baseball) in Castle Byers, surrounded by things he loves: drawings, d&d, art supplies, a microscope, comics- just shows what an impact Lonnie’s problematic conditioning and abandonment had on him. He used a baseball bat to destroy something he loves -castle Byers, and symbolically he was trying to reject his feelings for Mike using Lonnie’s old tactics of fixing him.

- Also, El doesn’t even seem to appreciate when Mike acts like his true self (goofy/like a kid). She laughs when Max complains he talks too much. Rolls his at his jokes with the cpr-dummy, covers his mouth and tells him to stop when he tries to joke and sing, ignores him when he gets excited about talking about dinosaurs. Which relates to my next point

The only characters who’s character bios focus on ‘escaping’ through d&d is Mike and Will.

Will in the Montauk pitch was described as having “sexual identity issues… LIKE MIKE , Will ESCAPES through fantasy gaming where he can be himself, uninhibited.” Like what is Mike escaping from… being a nerd? Because they could of said ‘like his friends’. And no it’s not because they’re best friends- they even specifIed in Lucas bio he’s “ Mike’s best friend” (which was even mentioned in s1).

.In Mike’s character description it says “ bullying and near-crippling insecurity. He has never had a first kiss, much less a girlfriend.He ESCAPES his insecurities through reading fantasy novels … retreating into his own vivid imagination. The Dungeon Master of his Dungeons and Dragons group, he writes sprawling adventures with fantastical monsters.When he finds himself on a real adventure, facing real monsters, he will discover a courage he didn’t know he had. By the end, he will even kiss a girl.”

*Interesting that Mike uses D&D  to escape his insecurities about not having a gf (retreating into his imagination). While Will (who is somewhat aware of his sexuality) uses d&d to escape and be himself uninhibited. They’re foils in a sense- using d&d for opposing reasons.

So the s3 fight about d&d games has a lot more meaning 

Mike equates heterosexual romance with ‘growing up’ and his feeling for Will as something childish he has to grow out of.When they fight over d&d. Mike says “It’s not my fault you don’t like girls!”, then he tries to ½ apologize only to say, “I’m not trying to be a jerk. Ok? But We’re not kids anymore.” He pretty much explains, this is just the way things are-boys fall in love with girls, get girlfriends, and that’s just a part of growing up (heteronormativity).  And tells Will “I mean, what did you think, really? That we were never gonna get girlfriends? We were just gonna sit in my basement all day and play games for the rest of our lives?” And poor Will who is probably more aware of his feelings just responds. “Yeah. I guess I did. I really did.” And after this Mike rushes to Will’s house and apologizes saying he was an “asshole.”When he tries to say he loves El . It was very forced. He can’t even use the world love or explain his feelings, “A feeling … yeah, like, something… like OLD PEOPLE say it sometimes”.

He can’t even describe love and what his “feelings” entail for El , he then says  “Yeah, like something , like old people say it some times. He doesn’t even say it back in the last ep, when she confesses. It’s all talk, but no feeling, it’s just a part of becoming an adult in Mike’s mind.

In the last ep before the mileven kiss, he even invites both El and Will over for Christmas saying “ And Will too… we could all have new presents to play with and… *scoffs* Sorry, that made me sound like a 7 year old...  ”

And it’s implied in the last ep (before the mileven kiss),  because of the 3 month breakup Mike is back to liking d &d. When Mike sees Will put his own d&d book in the donation box he stops him.

Mike: “WHOA, dude that’s the donation box.”

Will: “ I know, I’ll just use yours,  when I come back. (pause) if WE still want to play?”

So then Mike asks, shyly …

Mike : “Yeah, but what if you want to join another party?” (cough- girls , the other ‘species’, or just someone else: girl, guy or otherwise)

Will: “Not possible.” (Will will always love Mike- insert Mikes immediate heart-eye reaction to this comment).

I think people don’t notice what the subtext is here- regardless of his intentions, Mike broke Will’s heart. He made him feel “stupid” for ever thinking he ever had a chance with Mike. He always saw Mike as his forever, but Mike shot any hopes of that down in the garage. Will doesn’t trust his own instincts. Mike could straight up flirt with him in s4/5- and Will would dismiss it as his imagination. He essentially said ‘he’ll always love Mike- but if something is going to happen. It’s up to Mike to initiate it’.

Mike was queer coded since ep 1 (and he’s more queer coded than Will)!

 I LITERALLY thought (in s1) Mike was queer before Will!

- 3 rainbow references. Mike in s1 in his basement has a red heart being propelled by a rainbow sign. We see this again in s3 as a drawing. Mike also stands next to Will behind a rainbow apple poster in s2. Forbidden fruit + rainbow = queer forbidden romance. Also the apple poster was in the AV Club and at that time the rainbow apple-mac sign was suspected to be in reference to for Alan Turning (the gay ‘father of computers’).

In s1:

- 4 separate characters said El looked like a boy, but Mike doesn’t care! Even one of the men thought El might be the missing ‘Byers boy’. When El loses her wig , Troy said “she doesn’t even look like a girl” to the cops. But Mike just calls her “really pretty”

-Nancy says “I thought you were acting weird, but I thought it was because of Will” And Mike responds “I thought you were acting weird too I thought it was because of Steve … Do you like Jonathan now”?” Nancy: “No, do you like Eleven?”. They literally compared the explicit love triangle between Steve/Nancy/Jonathan to the Will-Mike-El dynamic!

- Mike literally uses gender inclusive pronouns when talking about crushes using the word “someone” (3 times), and embarrassing himself because he can’t articulate the difference between friendship and romance. When he could of simply given the 80s heteronormative  answer of ‘when a boy likes a girl’.

Mike: “ you go to school dances with someone.

You know someone that you like”

El: “a friend?”

Mike: ‘not a friend uh … uh someone like a” (gives up and kisses her)

-Mike’s mom said “ What’s been going on with Will, I can’t imagine what it’s been like for you. I just … want you to feel like you can talk to me. I never want you to feel like you have to HIDE anything from me” (she even emphasizes the word ‘hide”  (which is heavily queer coded)

- when Will ‘dies’, “we can be heroes” by David bowie (a bisexual singer) plays,   “And we kiss as though nothing could fall and the shame” is the lyric that plays when Mike returns to his house and cries in his mother’s arms over the ‘death’ of Will. Do I have to explain how ‘kissing and shame’ are queer-coded . And how such a lyric is oddly romantic- if we’re supposed to see their bond as nothing but platonic XD

-his dad jokes “Absolutely not” *turns to wife* “our son with a girl?”.

- when Lucas makes fun of his crush on EL, Lucas gets down on one knee  and says “ I love you so much, will you marry me?” and literally 1s later, we’re introduced to the bullies and the idea (for the first time) that Will is ‘gay’, and Mike is in the forefront of the scene and unlike his friends he is THE ONLY ONE physically assaulted as they cause him to fall face first into a rock (like a gay-bashing) .  They leave Lucas and Dustin unharmed. Even though Lucas just proposed to another guy- which should have gotten him a beating by the homophobic bullies.

It’s supposed to subconsciously hint Mike is queer like Will, and likes Will. The first interaction with the bullies, they mention Will being ‘gay’ right after they mention Mike’s crush on androgynous El and have a guy propose to Mike. Mike says to “ignore them” ( the homophobic remarks) but is assaulted anyways. And when asked what happed he doesn’t want to tell El the details cause he’s ashamed .

2nd time the bullies talk about Will, Mike is once again in the forefront, unlike his straight friends who are in the background . But this time Mike initiates the confrontation), as the bullies say Will is “flying in fairyland with all the other little fairies. All happy and gay”. Mike was literally on the verge or tears at this comment (despite being happy a few moments earlier , telling the others to ‘act sad’ because they’d look suspicious other wise). But this is the comment where Mike snaps and pushes Troy back (because he took it personally/wanted to defend Will).

The framing of Mike once again being in the front and snapping at the homophobic remarks ( gifs don’t do it justice, just rewatch the scene -Mike eyes water at the remarks). Then the last time the bullies appear , Mike jumps off the cliff and “flies like a fairy” (like Troy said) thanks to El . Troy at the police station even uses the word “fly” not levitate.

-Mike sneaking out to find Will, as Steve sneaks in to Nancy’s. They both even make eye contact (and pretend not to have seen each other).

- they share dinosaur toys , in s1 and 2 they appear to be the only ones with dinosaur toys.

- The s1 mom hug scene where Mike feels he lost Will is paralleled in s3 - signifying how he lost him a 2nd time.

- Mike in the 1st ep being the one to insist on looking for Will in the rain (callback to s3). But he never went looking for El when he saw her through his window? Even when Mike saw Will’s dead body, the second he heard his voice he convinced his friends to help rescue him!

- You remember the binder (from s1) that Mike keeps, filled with 100s of Will’s drawings, and how he caresses the drawing after thinking Will was dead. That’s totes platonic.

- Mike in s1 proclaiming “I’m the only one who cares about Will!” Seems like something a kid with a crush might say ( because obviously his other friends care about Will). But he thinks he cares the most. He was even the first to worry about Will not showing up to school, the first to suggest looking for him while speaking to Hopper, and when Hopper and his parents say ‘no’ he sneaks out anyway (and is the first to suggest forming a search party). The first to believe he was alive after seeing his dead body.The only boy to have a scene dedicated solely to him mourning Will.  Mike being the only boy to stay awake at the hospital, and the first boy to see and hug Will. The only one to have a private one on one talk before Will goes missing. The only one who was literally given 100s of Will’s drawings. And yet Dustin says Lucas’ is Mike’s best friend? So what does that make Mike and Will?

In s2:

- Will in all 3 seasons identifies as a wizard. But in s2 Mike (the paladin) says Will is a cleric. Meaning this reflects how Mike actually feels about Will. In d&d, they have similar moral values, powers, and generally need and depend on each other in the lore of d&d. Paladins have similar healing powers to clerics, but clerics have stronger healing abilities - which is interesting since Mike has always been viewed as the protector. But to Mike Will has helped him (maybe deal with the loss of El and other trauma) , just by being there. And if Mike says Will is a cleric,despite Will still identifying as a wizard in s3, it shows how deeply Mike actually feels about Will. It shows he views Will as one of the only people who understands him and views him as a healing presence and his moral compass.

“ strength of conviction gave many paladins a sense of common fellowship but did not always endear them to others. In many cases, paladins did not get along quite as well with other non-paladin adventurers, with the exception of clerics with similar beliefs.”

“A Paladin tries to hold to the highest standards of conduct, but even the most virtuous Paladin is fallible. Sometimes the heat of emotion causes a Paladin to transgress his or her oath (of honesty, courage, compassion, honor ,and duty). A paladin who has broken a vow typically seeks absolution from a cleric who shares his or her faith or from another paladin of the same order. After a rite of confession and forgiveness, the paladin starts fresh.”

This proves Mike knows he treats Will special/different than his other friends- and unlike a relationship with El (they are still individuals who are not dependent on each other). And Mike thinks being with Will quite literally makes him a better person. Juxtaposed with how him being in a romantic relationship with El made him blind and apathetic to those closest to him .

- All the mileven s1 parallels vs byler s2 parallels were ALL initiated by Mike. If the parallels were meant to show a one sided love triangle (on Mike’s end). They would of made Will the instigator not Mike! Parallels can be watched here , start at 6:50)

-Mike initiated the “crazy together’ line- and in s3 he said ‘blank makes you crazy’. So subconsciously he knew the line had romantic connotations.

-Mike initiating the hand hold (with a zoom in shot) and in the show this is only done for romantic pairings. Also Mike being the one to initiate the ‘arm thing’ which is generally romantic. But in s3 , Lucas also does this, saying “I am spending quality time with my girlfriend’

-Mike saying, asking him to be his friend was the “best thing I’ve ever done”

-Mike constantly following Will around, asking if he’s okay or biking to his house to check on him in s2 . In s3 running out to chase Will to the garage and apologizing, and running into a storm to apologize a 2nd time.

YOU SEE A PATTERN! Mike is whipped! And is the one constantly chasing and pursuing Will, not the other way around! Before s3, people always portrayed Will as the (stereotypical- problematic trope of a) sad-pinning-gay in a one sided love with Mike. It’s like people didn’t even watch the show (and just assigned tropes/stereotypes they wanted, that weren’t actually there). Will (probably too shy or scared to- because of homophobic taunts) never initiated a single byler moment- it was ALWAYS Mike!!! If people were actually objective, they would of thought it was Mike who was the one pinning!

- Which brings me to Mike literally pinning! Mike forcing Will to dance with a girl (who has a rainbow hairclip), but you literally see Mike’s shocked expression like  ‘what,why’d I do that ?’ And after this, they show Dustin looking sad about Max/Lucas dancing and then they have Mike get into the frame (next to Dustin) and look sad when Will/girl are dancing in the same exact frame as Max/Lucas. As they switch between these last 2 shots.

the cannon Spotify playlists-called ‘Mike’s basement beats’- These are character playlists that Spotify and St worked on together after s2.

-his first song is “small town boy” an 80s LGBT anthem about living in a small town and being queer and bullied. Every band member was openly gay.

-his 11th song is ‘don’t you want me’ from a “celebrate your gay pride” album

* But queer people are “delusional” for thinking Mike isn’t straight? And are told to “open your eyes and watch the show” (that was an actual quote in the byler tag). Ok? Take your own advice, then! XD

One of the Duffers cited inspirations for ST is SUPER GAY (and what they based the byler dynamic off of).

In the Will comic, Will throws an old 1970s book called “house of stairs” at the demorgorgan. And in a later chapter Mike and Will just read together at the library (just silently reading together, enjoying each others’ company-totally not a romantic cliche).And Mike warns Will the book ‘could have spoilers’ for the d&d campaign. Also look at this byler-centric cover :)

  Peter (Will) is shy, quiet ,initially a pushover, and gay-coded.  And as a coping mechanism he has psychological-breaks with reality where he thinks of his best friend from the orphanage, Jasper (Mike) . Another kidnapped boy, named Oliver (who looks just like Jasper/Mike) is also queer-coded (but a violent-sociopath). And, unlike Jasper who actually wanted to protect/take care of Peter -Oliver starts to gets a sick thrill out of making Peter dependent on him (which Peter catches on to pretty quickly). Oliver was insistent on being the only one to ‘wake’ Peter from his episodes (just like how Mike did for Will, in s2), except Oliver calls him pet-names like “sweetheart, baby, etc.” 

And again to prove it’s queer-coded I’ll read some of the (shortened) quotes, in the order they were written. These are quotes from Peter (Will’s) pov talking about his childhood best-friend Jasper (Mike) .  

-“his room. His and jaspers room.  Jasper looking up from his desk, smiling glad to see him. Jasper saying . Something very important. The most important message, the secret message.  He couldn’t hear him . But jasper keeps smiling , keeps talking . What was the message, jasper? What was the message? The dream had been beautiful at the beginning, terrible at the end, but he longed  to be in it again. If only he hadn’t awakened.”  

-“Jasper sitting on the bed and taking off his shoes ,smiling, ‘you’re okay pete, you’re better than a hundered of those slobs put together. Tomorrow I’ll tell them so myself‘ jasper’s strong, hard body as he got into bed ,so different from peter’s. Strong, to protect him to take care of him. Jasper, who always took care of him”.

-“He wanted to think about oliver it  it was like having Jasper back again. It would disturb him to see Oliver go off with Abigail… the rejection quite painful. It had never been like that with Jasper…jasper.

-The room they shared with rainbow colors, murmuring comforting words to him , enclosing and protecting him. He let himself drift into it, the rainbow hues dimness.”

-“No one ever depended on him. It was he who always depended on others, on Jasper. jasper, who had always taken care of him. Jasper…”

later he admits his feelings for Jasper to Lola/el. Lola and Pete are plantonic soulmates. The only reason why they survive and don’t succumb to their dark and violent urges/psychological brainwashing is because of each other. Lola has  brown hair and eyes and has a buzzcut and is heavily implied to be a lesbian (as she is the only girl in the group who is not fooled by Oliver’s ‘nice guy act’. Which makes the other girls ‘suspicious’ and alienate her). Also this was written in the 70s… she has a buzzcut and is said to “look like a boy”. It’s not that subtle! There was a reason that the author whose first name was WILLIAM (was suspected to be gay/bi when he was alive)!  XD

-Peter says “ he was my friend we were always together . Jasper his name was jasper .in the dream he’s taking care of me’. Now he was beginning to cry, his throat constricting and tears welling up in his eyes .’taking care of me … he always took care of me… taking care of me, and , and … and loving me’. ‘”It was the best time in your life’ she murmured’. ‘Yes’ “

* cough protective childhood friend, rainbows, ‘best time of your life = best thing I ever did.

S3 ending (byler centric ending)

When we first see Mike during the Hopper mologue, the moving truck leaves. “Like you’re pulling away from me or something. I miss playing board games every night (d &d)”…  (the last thing they talked about was Will visiting to play d&d and their fight this season started because of a disagreement about d&d.)

Then Mike looks back at the Byers house (just lingers there and looks back as his friends leave) like how Will did seeing Mike hold hands with El and leave .  “But I know you’re getting older, growing, changing. I guess, if I’m being really honest, that’s what scares me. I don’t want things to change.”Mike , like Will “doesn’t want things things to change”. He doesn’t want his  his feelings of friendship to become romantic in regards to Will,  it “scares” him (especially in rural 80s Indiana). Right after Will cries,  it immediately switches to Mike hugging his mom- to mirror the time he thought Will died in s1 “So I think maybe that’s why I came in here, to try and maybe stop that change. To turn back the clock. To make things go back to how they were.” He goes back to his mother for comfort, like he did the 1st time he lost Will. But also to reverse back time, to s1, before he realized his feelings for Will were romantic.  When things were simpler. 

“But I know that’s naive. It’s just not how life works. It’s moving, always moving, whether you like it or not. And yeah, sometimes it’s painful. Sometimes it’s sad. And sometimes, it’s surprising. Happy.” (byler endgame)

Will (in s2) even says everyone treats him like ‘freak/ that something is wrong with him’ (purposely leaving out Mike from the discussion). And then when Will disparages himself as a freak,and Jonathan agrees but asks Will, ‘who would he rather be friends with-  David Bowie (who was openly bi since the 70s) or Kenny Rogers’? And when Will says Bowie, Jonathan agrees saying “see, it’s no contest”.

So,  it’s just another coincidence that when Will ‘dies’ (in s1) a David Bowie song (‘we can be heroes’) plays. And as Mike hugs his mom, mourning Will -  a romantic lyric from the song plays during the hug?“And we kiss, as though nothing could fall. And the shame”  (which is heavily queer coded)?

And then in the last ep (in s3) Mike mirrors this scene in s1, hugging his mom, since he feels like he’s losing Will all over again. And right after the hug (‘we can be heroes’) plays again!?  I’m not saying byler is endgame. But- WAIT THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT I’M SAYING! XD

These men literally invented ‘hetero-baiting’ (with Robin & Steve) and you think they’re going to queer bait?!

Also, if Will was a girl named ‘Willow” no one would call byler ‘delusional’ ! Even the most casual viewer would say it’s obvious they’d end up together in the end!

If the witness said about El in s1 , “ same height… it could be the Byers girl”, instead of ‘boy’ (pointing out the resemblance).  Mike only meeting El cause he was looking for Willow. Proclaiming “i’m the only one who cares about Willow!” . Mike getting into fights and getting upset (almost crying) about the bullies insulting Willow. Mike only getting angry at El when he thinks she lied about Willow being alive. Mike being the only boy who has a scene dedicated to his loss of her (with the same romantic lyrics playing). Mike having a whole binder of her drawings and caressing one of the drawings, after he thinks she died.  Mike being the only one of her friends to stay awake at the hospital, waiting for her to wake up- so he can see her and hug her first. People probably would of started shipping it the second Willow stared at him and was the only one who didn’t lie to him, in the first ep! Another parallel to El!

If Will was Willow, the majority of the fandom would be byler shippers. Think about it! . Mike having s2 byler scenes that are identical to s1 mileven scenes, and then additional unique byler scenes. Mike staying by Willow’s side 24 hours a day for several days (not even changing clothes), carrying her out of the hospital, grabbing her hand (with a zoom in shot),constantly asking her if she’s okay at least 5-7 times, putting his arm around her twice, being the only one who could tell something was off with her (and it wasn’t her normal type of quiet). Calling and running all the way to her house and banging on the door to check on her, desperate. Watching her sleep cause he’s so worried. That shed scene reminiscing about how they first met in perfect detail, saying “I asked, I asked if you wanted to be my friend. You said yes, you said yes. It was the best thing I’ve ever done. (like a marriage proposal)”  The “crazy together” scene. Them being close since they were 5 vs the girl he knew for a week (but is somehow in love with?). In s2 if Mike sadly watched Willow dance with another guy , while Dustin does the same to Max. Forget it- everyone would already know mileven would be doomed to fail.

And again think about s3 if Will was a girl.They parallel the (comedic) mileven breakup vs (the sad/serious) byler breakup. Then Mike just complains and burps on the couch vs apologizing to Willlow multiple times/even going into a storm to apologize a 2nd time (and to ‘talk’). Willow having a breakdown over the fight vs El laughing and high five-ing Max after.The shed vs the pool shed scene- “best thing I’ve ever done” vs “you’re the most important thing in the world to me”, “blank makes you crazy’ (as El stares confused) vs “crazy together’ (where Willow says ‘yeah, crazy together��). Mike going on ‘movie dates with Willlow all the time’ right after making out with El. The last mileven kiss where Mike has his eyes open the whole time,  and doesn’t kiss back. And saying he doesn’t remember saying  “I love” you to El (and doesn’t say ‘I love you’ back). Right after having a talk with Willow about playing games when she comes back (the crux of their fight). Mike getting excited that he’ll be able to visit El and Willow on Thanksgiving and them visiting him on Christmas (those are holidays where family usually introduces their S.O.) Having the last scene of Mike,  be him looking back at Willow’s house, and have that whole monologue about “feelings changing”, and then he goes to hug his mom like the s1 byler scene where he thought Willow was dead, signifying he lost her again. And that’s not even all the scenes- and every time byler won by a landslide. If Will was a girl, we wouldn’t be ‘delusional’! It would be obvious writing on the wall, that Mike would eventually choose Willow over El by the end of the series.

But since they are 2 boys, we’re delusional, because queer kids don’t exist … apparently.

*S3-I’m not repeating my literal essays but they’re probably better than this post so here are the links to pretty much all my s3 byler meta.  (x) (x) (x) (x) (x) (x) (x) (x)

gif credit: 1st few have the name stark in the gifs, 2nd byler gif (found on wheheart.com- user dream_daisy, not sure if they also have a Tumblr , 3rd livelovecaliforniadreams, 4th &10th Cath-avery, 5& 6th unknown, 7-9 eggogorgon . Tell me if you know the unknown one so I can give credit , please.

[bisluthq]

Ugh god I get so annoyed at leftist gatekeepers. This is the reason ppl don’t want to leave the right and join the left lmaoooo

So like I fell down the rabbit hole in high school and ended up leaning conservative. I never loved trump, thank god (I was a Rand Paul Republican which in hindsight is also gross bc he’s a trump shill now). I was complicit with trump but I mean I was 16 so lol what did I know right. I was one of the few conservatives in my high school.

And I’ll be the first to admit it. I’m privileged. I’m white, my family is pretty well off (well we used to be in debt and stuff but like my dad makes good money he’s just in an iffy business so he’s gotten laid off sometimes) and I was raised Catholic. I am bisexual but like I was confused in high school (who wasn’t). Still.

I went to college and I switched my major to nursing and then all this shit with COVID made me realize how awful conservative values are (especially when there’s a fucking pandemic!) and how we need a better healthcare system. Like should I have changed my values earlier? Probably. But it was covid that changed my mind and it was nursing school and like 🤷‍♀️ if it took Joe to change Taylor’s mind then it did. And I agree her attempts at political advocacy are horrendous lmao but like idk. There’s no point in nitpicking IMO. Like she’s on our side. Obviously she’s not going to be a communist ACAB person anytime soon (like I’m not either lol) but like if she voted blue in this election then maybe we shouldn’t be hurling vitriol at her lmao and focus on trying to convert more actual republicans. Like this is just so unproductive and it’s not the real issue.

And like idk do you want these people on your side? I get you shouldn’t baby these people, like if I had someone come argue with me and tell me I was wrong maybe I’d have snapped out of it years ago (and like obvi people like trump and Cruz should be punished). But like if they start coming over to the left and you’re like “well you USED TO believe this”. Like what does that do??? Nothing. And who cares how someone gets there as long as they get there right??? Lmao sorry for the novel but like this just irks me

No I really actively agree with you and I’m generally anti gatekeeping right like in all aspects of life. I’m not gonna decide how much of a progressive, or a queer, or a Jew, or a woman someone is. Like it’s not my call to make. I don’t think we should hurl shit at her either.

But I think we can make nuanced critiques from a place of love and respect and admiration IN THIS SPACE especially since we know gatekeeping lefties are gonna go do it on main and we may as well clarify our arguments to be able to respond to those people.

Like I hear you, I’m glad you changed your mind, and you’re like... enough.

I believed some weird shit too over the years. I’ve always been lefty leaning but I’ve said FUCKED UP SHIT and believed strange ideas tbh. It’s okay to change your mind about stuff.

But it’s also okay to like.... talk about this stuff because advocating for people to be better, especially when done from a place of love, can make the world a better place. Like yesterday we discussed religion and one of my favorite influencers is Adina Miles-Sash who is SO PASSIONATE about Judaism and being frum but she’s also REALLY KEEN TO MAKE FRUMKEIT PRO WOMEN. And when she criticizes people it’s not to say, “fuck this it’s not enough” it’s “fuck this I know you can be better”.

And honestly that’s me on Tay’s politics but I’m not even writing op eds about it because I genuinely love her too much like it is enough. But she can be better.

And I love your frontline, progressive, bi woman self being an active part of the community here!

[tonyglowheart]

@imaginaryelle replied to your post:*me sipping tea* (x)

I would really enjoy seeing more of your thoughts on this, if you ever want to share them.

:’) a lot of my thoughts are salty rants and I’m TGCF on main right now so uhhh not at the moment but if you wanna hmu on like a chat thing of some sort I probably will eventually rant about my dislike of The MXTX Antis and the Problematic Culture people and the purity culture wank :’)

actually you know what, since I’m a parody of myself and I’m like always mood of "and another thing,” I’m just going to. go for it ig

so my biggest thing, is with the MXTX antis/MDZS wank/MXTX wank. is like....god it FRUSTRATES me so fckn much lmfao in so many ways and on so many levels.  like listen. I’m not saying there isn’t stuff to critique in MDZS. But there’s people who are first off: critiquing the writing quality, when I’m like “there’s like a 90% chance you’re reading the EN translation, and probably from ExR, and honestly I know it’s not fandom etiquette to critique fan content bc we’re all doing this for free out of passion, BUT I do, in fact, have some major issues with ExR’s translation quality, and also I lowkey feel like they have a strong traditional yaoi bias and sometimes it leaks through in how they handle certain things.” Big mood of this twitter thread about how when you’re reading in TL you can’t be criticizing the writing bc you’re already reading it filtered and like. you gotta consider things like the TL’s own personal biases or takes, etc. Which I feel like some people don’t in their critique, or at least they don’t take the time to acknowledge it and instead start spinning off into more and more impassioned reactions to perceived slights or faults.

The other thing is like. I admit when I first read MDZS - which I did while simultaneously watching bc I was kind of using CQL as a vehicle to get into MDZS, I had the HARDEST time trying to read ExR’s translation when I was going into it cold many many many moods ago rip - I was also squicked out by the explicit scenes shown. It did remind me a lot of traditional yaoi tropes, and I wasn’t into it. HOWEVER I was also a psych major, and I want to point out that the T/N’s do read to me as having a strong yaoi bias, and also before ExR redid their site they had large “SERVING YAOI AND BL” banners on EVERY page lol. And I think that also primes people to see things a certain way. (I just. am :/ about ExR also bc like... their whole vibe as a “yaoi scanlator” and also I. can’t be sure the TL wasn’t 17 when they were tl’ing it lmfao,,  and they did the whole rant - which fine they apologized for, but I think sort of reflects on a general attitude still w/ the team - about how some other TL had bad quality or something, but their existing TL has a lot of clunky English phrasing and actually a lot of editing issues, too, I was creating myself a back-up copy from their site and like google docs was already catching a bunch of typos and tense issues and such :’) and that’s beyond clunky EN translation phrasing. I just am like. they have a patreon lol, so I can’t say ExR is doing it wholly not-for-profit/dollars, and also like... it’s not like they’re licensed? I get that within scanlation circles, there’s an etiquette of “first come first serve,” but with translation, I think fans are only served with more translations? but I also care about the original work lol, I mean I get the vanity of “I want MINE to be the AUTHORITATIVE tl” bc I feel that mood too, but also I’m like. fam you didn’t bid for a license lmao.)

But yeah like. My petty gripes with ExR aside lmfao, I think when you look at WangXian, the whole “it’s yaoi tropes” gets really strawman. Like from a Watsonian perspective, I mean like... both WWX and LWJ really ARE useless virgins, lol, WWX’s first kiss was stolen by LWJ and his whole idea of sex comes from porn; LWJ is GusuLan and like. yeah. Who is teaching them about lube? certainly not porn. (but this also gets into the whole. like people saying explicit material is “problematic” because it doesn’t show “realistic” sex and I’m like. fam it’s smut, not a sex manual.) And like... they’re both kinky and WWX has a pregnancy kink, and like... good for them I guess?

From a more Doylist perspective..... I think for me, I’m like. well why not? gay media doesn’t have to be uwu to be “Valid,” and like, the people who start attacking mxtx personally because of the way she chose to write WangXian, or saying she’s homophobic because of WangXian or she doesn’t have the range... I already Know they didn’t read TGCF or SV lol. (and yeah SV is more “problematic” but I also think it’s VERY genre aware and both satirizes and also plays with and subverts some of the typical genre “problematic” things. not everything, but like. again the whole idea that non-mainstream media needs to be held to a higher standard to not be cancelled? I don’t hold by that). [But more on the Doylist thing: it’s dumb to me that people react like it’s a moral failing of non-straight works if they don’t fit EXACTLY their personal idea of what a thing should be. And this comes up EVERY time there’s some new thing. hell it’s not even just lgbt-related stuff; Hamilton, Crazy Rich Asians, etc all had nitpicking. Which again, isn’t invalid! but also like. :/ because we DON’T have enough representation right now to pick, and my take is always: the solution is to get to the point where we can pick and choose and can afford to have bad media just like the straights/whites do :’)]

The thing about WWX and LWJ is neither of them, as they’re written in canon, fit within “traditional yaoi” seme/uke stereotypes. The kiss I see people rail against as “dubcon” and also their sex scenes but I’m like. yeah I think it’s fine to say it’s not your cup of tea but to say that that makes them traditional yaoi rapey tropes I’m like. Fam that’s not it lol. LWJ is shown as being SO incredibly responsive and attentive to WWX’s wishes and desires. I mean that’s examples of his passion exploding out, but we consistently see LWJ being respectful of WWX’s wishes and autonomy even when it like. fucks him/them over :’) like when WWX was so hell-bent on hurtling down the mo’dao route :’)

plus also WWX literally fantasizes about them retiring as farmers and he’s the one out working the fields and LWJ is staying at home weaving lol, like c’mon, ya wanna talk gender roles, let’s talk about this.

the other thing is the whole mxtx anti stuff about “she’s homophobic” and “she’s a filthy fujo” and I think there’s issues that people aren’t considering, which I don’t know as much about but I feel like it informs my consideration of mxtx - such as like... not everyone’s internet is as wide open as, like, the West. I don’t know so much about Chinese censorship other than it exists, but I’m like. I think this would affect people’s access to resources which would inform them about how things work/where people are with LGBT thought? It reminds me of when young tumblr kids trash talk older queer people for using terms they see as “problematic” now, and I’m like “you really gotta pause a moment of (1) have some empathy (2) consider the person’s individual personal and cultural context.” MDZS wasn’t made for a Western audience in mind lol, it’s not going to reflect Western values! And China has a different history with its LGBT progression and it’s m/m media, which I don’t know enough about to comment specifically, but I think it’s incredibly disingenuous to judge it based on Western standards. A lot of people probably don’t realize they are! in that it doesn’t even occur to them, which is why they feel so free with their judgment! But also I’m like. lowkey THAT’s a problem for me bc of like. cultural imperialism lmfao. and also reflective of EN-language imperialism, when people are judging EN tl’s they’re seeing on face value without realizing or considering that they’re...reading... a translation... and that translations are NOT in fact direct one-for-one and that there’s a LOT of considerations that go into both translating and reading a translation of a work.

I think the points antis pull up against MXTX is like... stuff she’s said before in interviews - and I don’t know from when, but I imagine years ago at this point - where she was asked about shipping the other characters in MDZS, and she said something I think about how to her, she wants to write in a way that “preserves realism” or maybe she believes in (I only read a TL of it, so I hold the exact phrasing with a grain of salt), and for her, not everyone is gay so she doesn’t write all of her named characters gay. and I’m like. whatever that’s her prerogative as the author. And I think there’s also something that I don’t know if it’s an official “rules”/”guidelines” she wrote bc again I’ve only seen secondhand/thirdhand sources, but it’s something mxtx-antis also quote, where she said to not break up the main couples and also don’t “reverse” them. but again when we’re getting into the shou/gong dynamics, that’s where I don’t feel comfortable commenting because I don’t know enough about the sociopolitical implications of these terms and how they interact within that fandom/community subset. But I do think people need to be taking the stuff they read - ESPECIALLY if they’re only reading it in EN - with a grain of salt. or like a big ol pinch of it. 

edit: I know more about this now lmao and I know exactly which question people use piecemeal of vilify her. Here’s a recent-ish translation someone did. Read it through - the WHOLE thing, and think about the wider context.

But also in general I just don’t think anyone is valid when we start getting into ad hominems lol. Especially when I feel like they’re not really taking a moment to consider what wider contexts and influences might be at play and instead are playing Tumblr telephone with outrage and virtue signalling

sidebar: I also fucking HATE CQL purists lmfao. I don’t feel like I’ve seen or encountered anyone saying CQL fans are less valid than novel fans except in the sense of CQL fans getting defensive about their dislike of the novel - which, whatever, people have opinions - or decision not to read the novel and saying anyone saying they HAVE to read the novel is gatekeeping - which I hold to less but mostly bc I think it’s a fundamental misunderstanding of fan language, some of us say you HAVE to read it not in a neckbeard way but in a I’m so desperately passionate and I want more people to know about this way, kind of like how the “I hate you” in fan language GENERALLY means “I love it so much and I can’t stand it”? - but I HAVE seen people say the novel “ruined” wangxian, or CQL people who seem to be like... purity-wanking, like idk if you were around but god after Infinity War and the number. of fckn ironstranges. posting in the tags. about “love how healthy our ship is” and I’m like. this is still anti culture/purity wank but the other side of the coin 8). I encounter sometimes this lowkey attitude of CQL (or other adaptations) “redeeming” MDZS from the author, and I’m like. y’all are wack lmfao. There’s people wiht MDZS or even TGCF main, and they hate mxtx? and they say shit like “mdzs was only good on accident”? and I’m like. can you just leave lmfao. if you hate her then why are you here. (bc they’ve mental gymnastics this into a virtue ethics thing about “o the work is good and therefore morally fine but the parts I don’t like are because mxtx is morally bad and unworthy and tainted it, and CQL with its Purity has Redeemed it” but I’m like. this is because of censorship lmao. The team did a FANTASTIC job working the character dynamics and story, but like it also is directly because of censorship.)  

like I... have more thoughts than this lmfao bc ofc I do, but anyway, here’s... some of them lol

[loplainlointhemorning]

You don't have to answer this if you don't want to but what's up with the Courtney Love controversy? Why are people accusing her of manipulation or whatever? I'm totally new to this discussion

hey darling!! no worries, I love discussing Kurt & Court bc theyre my surrogate parents and they emotionally raised me when I had a difficult relationship w my Mom and Dad, plus I’m named after Kurt and he’s part of the reason I realized my ~gender~, so needless to say I have a surplus of information on them. Plus their music fucks. anyways, this is gonna be a masterpost-

my credentials(sources I have taken my information and formed my opinion on Kurt & Court’s relationship from if u need to look into them):

-Heavier Than Heaven(Book by Charles Cross, authorized by Kurt’s estate. Charles Cross is a well known grunge/music historian and has literally devoted his life to researching and writing rockstar biographies, including several on Nirvana. One of my favorite books ever.)

- Montage Of Heck(Documentary on Kurt’s life. Produced by his daughter, Frances. I have some heavy criticisms of this film and of the interviews in it, but it does have some reflections on Kurt and Courtney’s relationship that I think are important.)

- Hit So Hard(a documentary on Hole’s drummer, Patty Schemel. Minor discussions of Kurt and Kurt and Courtney.)

- Verse Chorus Verse(Fan-made documentary series on Kurt’s life, widely regarded by Nirvana fans the most in depth play-by-play biography that exists- and it’s free on YouTube, which is lit.)

sources I don’t pull from, but many younger Nirvana fans do(the people who buy into the conspiracies generally):

Kurt and Courtney- A documentary made in the late 90’s under the guise of biography, but is actually about the conspiracy theory that Courtney killed Kurt. I saw it when I was a new fan and I literally laughed out loud from how apeshit it was.

Soaked In Bleach- ‘Biopic’ about Courtney killing Kurt. I haven’t seen it but straight men who think Courtney is ugly take it more seriously than the Bible. Very little truth ever goes into these theories, besides maybe names and dates.

Anything Hank Harrison(Courtney’s father) has to say- He wrote a book on the subject. He also gave her acid and lost custody of her when she was three years old. He’s a shit parent and I doubt he’s actually seen his daughter since the 80’s.

Anything Buzz Osborne(Kurt’s friend, singer for the Melvins, a band Kurt looked up to in Montesano) says- I think Buzz’s opinion is taken way too seriously by a lot of the fan base, I read an interview of his criticizing Montage Of Heck because Kurt ‘didn’t really have a stomach disease’ and was just lying about it to get high, and also about how he hated having to see Courtney naked, and made a good long point about how disgusting her body is. IOn top of all that(none of which really has to do with critiquing the film...?), he mocked Kurt and called him a loser for committing suicide. I don’t care what your opinion on his stomach, his wife, or his music is, that shit is callous and idiotic, but totally reflective of the 70’s and 80’s mentality regarding the mentally ill. He’s part of the legion of pretentious punk dudes who *kind of* knew Kurt, who think Courtney’s the one who ‘corrupted’ him, which brings me around to answering your question.

So, there’s this idea regarding Kurt and Courtney’s relationship, which is pretty similar to the one surrounding Sid and Nancy’s(or at least used to.) Courtney is the whiny, annoying, petulant bitch who attached herself to the first trophy she could find, and through her terrible manipulative personality kept him with her and kept him from getting better. In this mode of thinking, She’s also the person who ‘started’ him on drugs, and in a few people’s eyes, the person who ‘forced’ him to have Frances.

The reality of the situation, as I see it, as someone who’s gone to pretty decent lengths to inform themselves on the subject, is that Kurt and Courtney’s relationship was toxic: But the toxicity was mutual. This doesn’t mean they were a “problematic” couple, or that they were abusing each other, or even that either one of them was ‘evil’, it means that they fell deeply in love as young trauma survivors with substance abuse issues and huge ambitions. That’s a lot to put on any relationship and it’s a lot to talk about, so I’m gonna split this into categories of complaints that you’ll hear pretty routinely as a new Nirvana/Hole fan.

1. “She got him into drugs!”

Courtney started on heroin in the late 80’s in L.A., when she was still playing with Sugar Baby Doll(her band with Jennifer Finch and Kat Bjelland). Kurt, as said in Heavier Than Heaven, tried heroin for the first time around 1988-1989(I don’t remember exactly.) At the time, he was still living with(though I don’t believe they were still dating) Tracy Marander. Because he was destitute, he didn’t have enough money to start forming an actual habit until Nevermind started gaining speed, and by the time he and Courtney started dating(they met a couple of times and phoned a couple of times before cementing a relationship) he had been taking it for a while. That’s the thing I think people look over when it comes to Kurt- He was embarrassed about his addiction and he hated the physical side effects, but he loved heroin.

Courtney says in Montage Of Heck that she had both tried and kicked heroin by the time she met Kurt, but I think the Heavier Than Heaven description is probably more accurate: That she did heroin socially, and her addiction worsened after the two of them began living together because Kurt was(in her own words) ‘obsessed with oblivion.’ She also said in Montage Of Heck that his dream was to ‘Get to three million dollars and become a junkie.’ She’s stated several times that her drug problems came out of a need for ‘comfort’, and Kurt was into getting so fucked he couldn’t do anything else(also confirmed by his friend, Dylan Carlson, who was also into heroin and did it with him often.)

On top of that, Courtney was the one who orchestrated interventions for Kurt, went through the process of reviving him when he’d overdosed, and broke his syringes/scared off his dealers to try and keep drugs away from him as much as possible. At one point, she even made a rule that no drugs were to be done in the house- So he started renting motel rooms and doing them there. It was she who was the head of his final intervention before he went missing.

If anything, Courtney is the person who tried her hardest to keep drugs away from both of them. Considering how much people still talk about her doing heroin while pregnant(which occurred very early on before she was aware of her condition), Kurt is the person who struggled the most to stay off drugs during her pregnancy and after Frances’ birth, even going so far as to hide in the bathroom from her while she was struggling with morning sickness so she wouldn’t know he was getting high.

2. “She manipulated him into dating her/marrying her!”

Here’s the thing about Courtney; She is an enigmatic, entertaining, talented, maternal individual. Here’s the thing about Kurt; He’s a shy, quiet, non-confrontational guy with mommy issues. There’s been a lot of discussion on how Courtney was ‘obsessed’ with Kurt, and how she wouldn’t rest until she pinned him down: That’s untrue, or at least it reads less like crazy-bitch-steals-rock-god and more like cute-singer-has-crush-on-fellow-cute-singer. She was really into him, but when she met him she was still dating Billy Corgan, which deterred her from pursuing him until that relationship(basically) dissolved. When Kurt met her, he had just gotten out of a relationship with Tobi Vail, which most likely fell apart because she refused to be what Tracy Marander had been for him. She wasn’t interested in caring for him and she wasn’t interested in a full-time monogamous relationship. She was working too hard at her own career and was way too involved in the burgeoning riot grrrl movement to worry about looking after Kurt Cobain. That just wasn’t going to work for him.

Kurt was a big believer in the nuclear family model, he was very monogamous, and besides that he lacked the ability to physically take care of himself. If he wasn’t living with a partner who would clean up the house and remind him to wash his hair, it just didn’t happen. He was chronically ill, depressed, and he’d spent most of his adolescence AWOL from anyone who would actually raise him, so Tobi’s rejection deeply hurt him for a number of reasons- While Courtney, the opposite of Tobi in a few key ways, was exactly what he wanted. On top of looking like the archetypical punk girl, “I was attracted to her because she looked like Nancy Spungen,” she had a maternal streak (In Montage Of Heck, when he’s found sitting beside her while she cuts his hair, and, typical for people living with Kurt, mentions that she cleans the house because ‘nobody else fuckin does.’) Early on in their relationship, Kurt had a meltdown and begged Courtney to come to his apartment. She did, and looked after him the rest of the night, a pattern which would become common for them, and was stated by her half sister to be the ‘original strain on the relationship.’

Besides her mothering elements, Courtney was brassy and loud, and her presence allowed him to be less introverted and freer with himself. She was an ambitious young musician who shared a similar childhood to him, and had the same yearning for a safe home life that he did. She was well-read and artistic, and introduced him to the literary side of music creation, which he hadn’t explored yet. After spending a night on the phone with her, he went around telling everybody she was ‘the coolest girl in the world,’ and broke off another burgeoning relationship with Mary Lou Lord on live TV after spending the night with her. The famous quote, “Courtney Love is the best fuck in the world.” is in fact real. And yeah, he could’ve handled that one better.

The attraction was mutual, and I find it hard to believe that Kurt was ever forced into anything romantic with her based on how well she suited his tastes.

3. “She used him for his fame/money!”

As stated above, Courtney was attracted to Kurt before Nevermind was even recorded, and if she wanted to marry a famous dude right out the gate, at the time they met there were plenty of people who were way more famous than Kurt. In Heavier Than Heaven she mentions really liking their song “Dive,” and later in life she mentioned hearing “Sliver” and being impressed with Kurt’s writing abilities. Both of those songs were released a solid two years before Nevermind. She was interested in Kurt because he was cute and talented and she was savvy in the music scene, meaning that she kept up with underground bands.

Now, a point of contention between Kurt & Courtney was their different attitudes towards fame. That is entirely true. Courtney wanted to be famous, enjoyed celebrity, loved attention, and could handle touring, press, and the craziness of success. She was very charismatic, very physically strong, and let’s face it, definitely an attention whore. Kurt liked being praised, he liked being successful, and he definitely had a thing for attention- But he hated pressure, he had inferiority issues, he didn’t know how to handle his life being pried into all the time, and he wasn’t strong enough to do massive tours. Courtney just didn’t understand that, which is pretty common if someone doesn’t share your same mental illness/physical illness: Touring hurt Kurt’s stomach, it worsened his anxiety and emotional instability, it wore his body out, it didn’t agree with him. He loved playing live but couldn’t handle the mania or the travelling, meaning he didn’t mind blowing off huge tours that would bring in loads of money. Courtney, who did feel envious and intimidated regarding his success, would get angry at him for that- She didn’t want him to blow off massive paychecks and press coverage because it’s not what she would’ve done. I definitely side with Kurt on this, nothing is more frightening and frustrating than people trying to force you to do things you can’t handle health-wise. Courtney, being naturally business-oriented, was also aware of how things appeared to the public, and definitely cared about their image more than Kurt did- One of their fights revolved around her nagging him about how important the “Heart-Shaped Box” music video would be for him, and how he should look good. He reacted by stubbing out a cigarette on his forehead and saying, “Do I look fucking good enough for you now?”

So yeah, Courtney, like a lot of people in Kurt’s life, was all about furthering his career and success. A lot of people read that as her being money-hungry or manipulative, in my opinion it’s just a natural response from a person who’s spent their whole life trying to be a success and wouldn’t really get there until 1994. I think some of it was envy and I think some of it was her using him a little vicariously, neither of which are healthy but neither of which are malicious, either. She wanted to be a rockstar, she was ready to be a rockstar, she wasn’t; He thought he’d wanted to be a rockstar, he didn’t really want to, he was.

4. “She emotionally abused him!”

I hate to say this because I love Kurt so much but, as someone who’s been through a codependent relationship where they were bailing water out of a sinking boat, Kurt’s behavior throughout their marriage set off way more red flags for me than Courtney’s did. I don’t think he was actually abusive, but I do think he was a little too underdeveloped and unresolved to be married to someone. He had to grow up slower than everyone else because he missed out on having concrete mature influences, which Courtney did as well, and like I said earlier I think a lot of their problems came through a lack of adult communication skills. Both of them were really jealous people: Courtney couldn’t stand Kurt talking about Mary Lou Lord or Tobi Vail, Kurt was completely convinced that Courtney was cheating on him with Billy Corgan(even going so far as to talk to their lawyer about a divorce shortly before he died.) This was the catalyst for a lot of mind games and unnecessary drama, especially coming from Kurt.

Kurt couldn’t handle conflict. He was really passive aggressive, and would do things to purposely piss Courtney off or communicate to her that he was displeased. While she was trying to stay clean he would declare that he was going to do drugs in the apartment, when she started talking to a psychic to help her with her problems he mocked her and put her down, when she staged his final intervention his entire argument against rehab was that she was just as ‘fucked up’ as he was(she had already agreed to go into rehab, though whether he was aware of this or not I’m not sure.) He made his first suicide attempt by overdosing on Rohypnol on their wedding anniversary because she took some pills and fell asleep and he decided that meant she wasn’t interested in him anymore. I’m not arguing that that’s an irrational response to your partner getting stoned and falling asleep, especially when he’d apparently set the night up to be as romantic as possible, but the overdose put him in a coma and sent Courtney into hysterics.

Her mental health began to decline due to paranoia that he’d end up dead, and her weight dropped due to the added stress. As someone who’s been through a pretty similar situation to that and exhibited the same symptoms, I can tell you that it is never okay to use a suicide attempt to deal with a perceived injustice from your partner. By this time, Kurt was facing either getting clean or dying, and his behavior was very depressed and erratic, so there are explanations for the way he was acting and I don’t think he was trying to manipulate her with a threat. Despite my understanding of that, there is nothing more exhausting than being the caretaker of someone who is hellbent on never getting better. I can’t imagine being the caretaker of someone who won’t stop until they’re dead, and I do think at that point it would’ve been better for them to separate.

But that isn’t to say Courtney wasn’t toxic herself, I’m not trying to paint a wholly negative image of Kurt here. I’m merely trying to stand in the way of Nirvana fanboys who have no grasp on the more sickly sides of his personality, and give Court a bit of a break. Definitely, she struggled with her jealousy: As stated, she never wanted his ex girlfriends mentioned around her and would tear them apart if they were. She was ambitious and career driven, which eroded a lot of her platonic relationships/working relationships as well her marriage to Kurt. She was one of the people who was pushing him to recover in time to play Lollapalooza, and she was one of the people who pushed him into his last stunted tour before his death. She weaponized his relationship with Frances in ways that I and most people agree are gross: She told him he should be playing massive gigs to support his daughter(though their medical and legal bills were big they were hardly poverty stricken), and admitted in an interview later that she called him in rehab once to tell him he’d dropped Frances on her head(She mentioned during this that Frances was wearing a furry hood, and that he didn’t hurt her. In my opinion he was doing his best by even trying rehab again, and that he was already so worried that he was a terrible father that it was just cruel to make him feel worse.)

She has a tendency to be self-obsessed, and to put her own self interest before people she cares about, even if she regrets it later. She struggles herself with mental illness and addiction, both of which tend to give a person poor judgment regarding the people they care about.

Once again, Courtney and Kurt weren’t a healthy couple, but it wasn’t because they were evil or abusive towards one another. They cared for each other deeply, they had a very pure devotion. Underlying all this nastiness were two people who prayed together, wrote together, fantasized about a Valentine’s Day wedding, and faxed each other R-rated love letters like modern versions of James Joyce and Nora Barnacle. During one of his more successful stints in rehab, Kurt wrote Courtney love letters every night(though he did decorate them with blood, wax, and semen.)

They had some serious therapy they needed to attend, the both of them. But 90% of these demonizations of Courtney are either untrue or blown out of proportion.

[ghostmaggie]

hey so in your MKAT post (which you’re 100% correct about) you also mention you’ve had some issues with RT in the past. i’m fairly new in the fandom and also watch his other show iZombie, but i wanted to ask what issues they were?? i like to be informed about the media i consume lmao

Oof okay so I'm on mobile and therefore this will probably be more rant-y and opinion-based than you might be looking for, so I invite anyone with opinions or sources or thoughts or contradictions to reply or shoot me asks and I'll share them (plus I'm curious of other thoughts) but,,

Idk if this was clear in my original post, but my issues are mainly contained within the actual show as opposed to things about him irl, because idk that much outside of secondhand info, so take it with a grain of salt I guess, lol

Also, I feel like I need to say that this is really negative about vmars--which, to be clear, is a show I love dearly--and I know sometimes I like to avoid negative commentary on things I enjoy because it gets stuck in my head and ruins my enjoyment. So if that's you, feel free to skip this! I wont be offended and you shouldn't feel bad about it! It's also just one person's opinion, and I'm most definitely not always right :)

So mostly setting aside the brand new season because I have no clue how to talk around spoilers effectively, in short (with spoilers up through the movie and maybe some spoilers for the books and new season, I cant really tell at this point):

(Editor's note post finishing writing: it's not even all my thoughts, but it's not short. Sorry.)

RT shares in the grand tradition of showrunners I do not care for along with Steven Moffat and Jason Rothenberg, for many parallel reasons. Moffat thinks hes cleverer than he really is, jroth is a douche about romance and character motivation, and both are smug jerks who drove me away from shows I used to love, so.

So number one I guess would just be the sense that he really fucking does not care about the fans. It's especially egregious, as I've seen others point out, when he literally would never have gotten his show back (after driving it to the ground) without the LITERAL MONEY donated by devoted fans. I'm not saying you have to do things just because fans want them, but to go out of your way to do things you know fans will hate just to be contrary is,, yeah.

He thinks he's so very smart, and yet his plots are riddled with holes and inconsistencies (hello, Moffat). It speaks, to me, of a lack of respect for everyone involved--fans, writers, actors, crew, critics, just everyone. Write down a timeline. Something. Try.

One of my bigger issues, though, is that the misogyny in vmars is just...beyond appalling. Not just narratively--i understand representing the flaws in society, I guess, but veronica is honestly one of the most misogynistic parts of the show, and she is never ever ever held accountable for it. Ever. The show never sends the message that she's wrong for the atrocious way she treats, to name a few, Madison, Kendall, Gia, and even Carrie during the s1 plot with Adam Scott. The carrie thing is especially fucked up bc iirc the narrative only condemns her for guessing the victim wrong. (As another note, her treatment of other marginalized groups or basically anyone she ever treats badly--logan, Keith, Wallace, weevil, the list goes on--is rarely or never narratively critiqued. Veronica mars can do no wrong, apparently, even when she's obviously wrong.)

She's far from the only example of misyogny, of course--duncan's s2 dream about madonna/whore meg/veronica comes to mind in screaming color, yet donut is somehow treated like a prince forever and ever and v's lost true love even though he's basically the scum of the earth (pardon, my true feelings are coming out a little here).

Somewhat connected is, of course, the show's treatment of rape in general (hi, season 3), but especially Duncan's rape of veronica. I'm still not over the way they walked it back to "not a rape" and took back holding him accountable. I live for all the fanfiction that addresses it, because at least there people remember that, whether he "thought she could consent" or not, he literally thought she was his sister and didnt know. That's uninformed consent at best, babe!

And if that wasn't bad enough, to "resolve" that plotline and then come back at the end of season 2 to be all, "jk! You WERE raped, by SOMEONE ELSE [too]! Enjoy that reenabled trauma, and some chlamidya to boot!"

Speaking of retconned instances of sex, how about that piz/veronica tape that suddenly became full on sex in the movie? Fun times.

My favorite bout of misogynistic writing, you ask? That would have to be "narratively-enforced nicest girl in school who stands by her friends and is sweet and loyal becomes a raging hell bitch yet also the representation of misogynistic virginal innocence because she was knocked up and abandoned by Mr. Narratively-Claimed-to-be-Perfect-but-Actually-the-Worst and completely undergoes a 180 personality change then dies for plot reasons" because holy fucking shit.

Okay sorry I got way more into that than I meant to. I'll try to wrap up.

RT does a very jroth job of treating fans like shit for giving a shit about a romantic relationship he created. He acts like fans are a bunch of stupid girls for caring about romance, but then pushed it at every level of promo to reel us back in. Make up your mind, asshole. It's desperately unfair to bait fans with romantic promo (even in the form of an inane and ooc love triangle) and then snap back with "oooh it's noir, shut up about the romance!"

If that's how you feel, stop making every other plot point and promo about the fucking romance.

RT seems to want to be making a show that he isnt. He wants to be grimdark and angsty and awful, I guess, and while there have been elements of effective darkness throughout vmars, they have been tempered by the show as a whole. That made it (mostly palatable) for people like me. To flip the script now does a disservice to long term fans and does nothing to attract new viewers. If you want to make a different show, make a different show. Don't drive beloved characters into the ground because you're bitter about how your work is perceived post-death of the author.

To wrap up--he hates character growth. He must really hate it. This is dipping a little into the new season, but he just. Won't let anyone develop. Well. Maybe some people. A very few. But not veronica. Never veronica. Because heaven forbid your main character, the person we've followed for 15 years, be anything other than she was at 16. Her personality, her approach to the world, none of it has changed. Which begs the question: what has been the fucking point?

Sorry this is so long. I'm not sure I even answered your question, so feel free to ask me to try again 😂

[thelovingschool]

The Fantastic Four to the Fourth Power, Part 2 -- My Crucible Experience

I've recently finished Doris Kearns Goodwin's excellent book, Leadership in Turbulent Times, in which she details the ways in which four US presidents served as leaders through pivotal historical moments. As I wrote in my previous post, there were commonalities among the four presidents in the ways they led during critical times. I enjoyed learning about those turbulent times, yes, but I also really enjoyed part two of the book, in which Goodwin describes how each president, earlier in their lives, underwent a “crucible” moment, a transformative experience that was instrumental in shaping the identities of the leaders they would become. The ways in which each president transformed themselves was both intriguing and highlighted the differences among them. Reflecting on those differences and on my own experiences has led me to an interesting idea. Let me explain.

My own crucible experience was not brought on by loss, as was the case for our presidents, to whom I promise to return. In the summer of 2016, I traveled to Bethlehem, Pennsylvania, as part of the Lehigh University Global Distance Program. I had been teaching overseas for over ten years, and was interested in moving into school leadership. Lehigh had (and has) the best program for international teachers to earn their MEds through a hybrid program, some courses online, some face-to-face. I had been teaching in Panama for a year, and had taken courses via Zoom already. But that summer I packed a bag, said goodbye to my wife and one-year-old son, and lived in a dorm for five weeks with a bunch of other international teachers, leaders, and counselors, while I took three educational leadership courses. I dove into the experience as much as I could -- reading every additional article that was assigned, organizing social outings with my peers (Go Lehigh Valley Iron Pigs!), and learning as much as I could. The three courses, Organizational Leadership and Change Management, School Law, and Diversity and Multicultural Understanding, all unlocked within me a greater knowledge about my career as an educator and my life in general than I ever thought possible. I was so fortunate to have the experiences I did, and gain the insights that I did, that I returned with a passion to collaborate, serve, and lead, that I simply hadn’t had before. It was truly transformational. I think of my career before that summer and after.

The first course I took led me to an insight that, when I had it, must have seemed obvious to my outstanding professor, Dr. George White. We were studying Bolman and Deal’s Reframing Organizations, in which the authors describe the four frames of organizational leadership: structural, human resources, political, and cultural/symbolic. It’s a fantastic book, and George brought the text to life in a way that few teachers have ever brought a book to life. Because these frames are important to the rest of these blog posts I want to take a minute to review them. The structural frame involves order. Timetables, roles and responsibilities, hierarchies, logistics. Important in the structural frame are things like job titles and job descriptions. As my partner principal Brian would describe it, the structural frame is the “systems and structures” frame. George professes that he himself is not a systems and structures guy, but he understands the importance of viewing the organization through that frame. The second frame is human resources. Essentially this is about caring for your colleagues, and attending to their needs. A leader viewing things from the HR frame wants to help empower her or his staff and help them grow. The political frame was described by George as essentially Game of Thrones. A battle for survival. The battle was over important resources: people, time, space, and funds. In order to succeed in viewing the organization through this frame a leader has to be a politician. As Heifetz and Linsky would say, use allies well, keep the opposition close, and court the uncommitted. Political savviness is a vital part of leadership (and an area in which I still have lots of room for growth). The final frame is the cultural/symbolic frame. This has to do with the story of the organization; its rituals and traditions. A leader who understands how to view things through this frame knows the symbolic importance of certain members of the organization who maintain those traditions, and how important it is to frame the narrative well with respect for the past along with progress toward the future. Story matters, as all of our presidents found out. The trick, and the tricky part, is to be able to balance the four frames, so that as a leader you are not viewing the organization too much from any one frame, and also that you aren’t neglecting any frames.

This was a phenomenal lesson to learn, and one I have found helpful as I analyze leadership challenges we face at our school. But George wasn’t done there. We also focused on change management in the course, and spent some time discussing Shapiro and Stefkovich’s work, Ethical Leadership and Decision Making in Education. These authors describe four foundations for ethical decision making. As a student of philosophy, I’m all in for any discussion of ethics. In fact, fifteen years previously, I took a graduate course called Foundations of Ethics through the BC Philosophy department, where Professor Patrick Byrne described his love for “Bernie and the Two Janes,” or Bernard Lonergan, the Jesuit theologian, Jane Austen, the author, and Jane Jacobs, the sociologist. I love Lonergan and Jane Austen too. I mention them briefly because I feel my life’s work is devoted to understanding how Lonergan’s philosophy applies to educational leadership, and because Jane Austen is JK Rowling’s favorite author. Later in this post we will finally get to a discussion of Harry Potter! But for now, ethical foundations.

Shapiro and Stefkovich describe four ethical foundations for decision making: the ethic of justice, ethic of care, ethic of critique, and the ethic of the profession. A better summary than mine can be found here, but I’ll give it a try. The ethic of justice is exactly what it sounds like: making decisions based on a sense of fairness, equality, equity, respect. Legality matters to those who make decisions based on the ethic of justice. The questions that drive those who make decisions based on the ethic of justice are WHAT and HOW. Essentially this is Plato in The Republic, meditating on what justice really is. The ethic of care involves being empathetic toward others. There is a lot of great work happening now in education regarding compassion and dignity, and treating everyone with both. This work arises from an ethic of care. The question that drives the ethic of care is FOR WHOM, and it arose out of the work of the feminist Carol Gilligan. The ethic of critique asks the question WHO. As in who benefits from the way things are being done now? Who made the decisions? Notice the difference between the subjective ‘who’ and the objective ‘whom’ in the ethics of critique and care, which is one of my favorite grammar lessons to teach, and says everything to me about both of those foundations for decision making. One of my undergraduate courses was Philosophy of Education, in which I was introduced to Paulo Freire, and the ethic of critique fits his ideas in Pedagogy of the Oppressed. The ethic of critique is about power, who has it and who wields it, and also asks, “is that right?” Finally, the ethic of the profession is specific to the context. Similar to the hippocratic oath for medical professionals of “do no harm,” educators have a responsibility to those they profess to educate. This ethic comes down to the fundamental question of WHY we do what we do in this profession. As I wrote in the last post, if we don’t understand our WHY as educators, if we’ve lost our purpose, Baruti Kafele will rightly tell us we should just get out of the profession. It’s about us as educators evaluating our own decision-making values in light of the fact that we are all here to serve our students and their learning.

So this is all well and good, but I don’t mean to just write book report after book report. I want to make a point. And what I pondered in that course five summers ago with Dr. White was the simple notion that there are four frames of organizational leadership and there are four foundations for ethical decision making. Four. Four of them. Four of each. Why four? Is there some significance here? And then it hit me. The four frames align PERFECTLY with the four foundations for ethical decision making.

The structural frame is about order, systems, structures. In a sense, it is about fairness. It IS the lens through which the ethic of justice is viewed.

The human resource frame is about compassion, empathy, meeting our staff’s needs. It IS the lens through which the ethic of care is viewed.

The political frame is all about utilizing power to exert influence and gain control over time, people, space, and financial resources. It’s about control, and who is controlling. The ethic of critique is finely attuned to understanding this frame, as it asks who is exerting power.

Finally, the symbolic/cultural frame has everything to do with the story of the organization, with its purpose, with its WHY. Therefore, those who base decisions on the ethic of the profession are inherently interested in the important symbolic nature of what they do.

To illustrate this further I’ll start this small table:

So as I was thinking about this, and wondering not only if this made sense, but also if this mattered at all, I started seeing other sets of four arise in educational literature, leadership literature, and self-knowledge literature. Fours are EVERYWHERE. Those fours started really turning the wheels in my mind, thinking about not only ways to organize and think about what we do, how we do it, who we are, and why we do it, but also how those organizational frameworks can help us better understand how to do it better. These connections will continue to be the subjects of future posts.

Of course, I also thought of some pop culture sets of four: The Fantastic Four and the Beatles came immediately to mind. But what really struck me were the four houses in Hogwarts: Slytherin, Hufflepuff, Gryffindor, and Ravenclaw. How THESE align with the four frames and the four ethical foundations is the subject of my next post. Thanks again for reading!

[f1uffy-turtle]

Fanfic Writer Asks

[SOURCE: criminal-minds-fanfiction: Most of the writer ask posts I come across are only like ten or so questions long so I thought I’d try to make a longer one because we like talking about our writing! Feel free to reblog!]

I got this from @wickedobsessed101 and copied and pasted the questions so I can fit my own answers too. You can find the post I got from them here.

1) How old were you when you first starting writing fanfiction? I started around 2011, so I was around 13 years old at the time.

2) What fandoms do you write for and do you have a particular favourite if you write for more than one? I am currently writing for The Owl House fandom, but I am intending on broadening my scope to She-Ra as well as Lord of the Rings, Zelda, and ATLA bc gay fantasy brain go brrr.

3) Do you prefer writing OC’s or reader inserts? Explain your answer. I prefer to write original characters myself. Y/N stuff is not exactly my forte. It gives me more control as to how I know the characters will act depending on their own characterization and backstory.

4) What is your favourite genre to write for? I actually really prefer to write really tense stuff, despite my misleading username. I live for the conflict of the moment and it does lean into some pretty angsty stuff sometimes. I mean, look at Soul Bound. However, I also do like writing light-hearted comedies as well as some fluff whenever I can get around to it. My heart yearns and so too must the romantic tension.

5) If you had to choose a favourite out of all of your multi-chaptered stories, which would it be and why? I really only have one that is published, but it is definitely the one that I do like the most. Soul Bound was originally a story that was going to stand on its own. It was set in a world that I created meticulously from the ground up, taking inspirations from Lord of the Rings, Legend of Zelda, ATLA among other things. I do have other multi-chapter projects in the works that I absolutely love, however out of my published babies, it's SB 100%.

6) If you had to delete one of your stories and never speak of it again, which would it be and why? The Legion of Lenny Faces was a crack fic that I just posted for funsies. I wouldn't mind getting rid of that.

7) When is your preferred time to write? Since I am starting to work again, I'm thinking about starting work on my writing around 2PM. It's normally around that time that I start anyway, so it works out.

8) Where do you take your inspiration from? Movies, music, sometimes even my own songs that I write. Inspiration really comes from anywhere that hits me. However, it hits especially hard whenever I make a playlist for a particular mood that I want a story to have.

9) In your xxx fic, what’s your favourite scene that you wrote? In Soul Bound, my current favorite scene that I have written was the scene in the chapter Confrontations with the scene between Amity and Odalia. I essentially channeled everything I ever wanted to say to my abuser into Amity's words and it was the most cathartic thing that I ever wrote.

10) In your xxx fic, why did you decide to end it like that? Did you have an alternative ending in mind?In The Bean that I wrote for April Fools, while it definitely is a crack fic, I still wanted it to read like an Owl House episode or at least an Owl House short. However, I did think of an alternate ending in mind where the bean just kept on multiplying until it flooded the entirety of the BI. However, That would mean by those rules, duplicating all non-living things on the isles.

11) Have you ever amended a story due to criticisms you’ve received after posting it? I split an entire chapter into two pieces and rewrote another one just because of criticisms that made complete sense to me. In all honesty, I did blame the burnout, however all of that and the small break I did take helped a lot to reinvigorate my love for this story that I am writing.

12) Who is your favourite character to write for? Why? Skara. 100%, she is babey and I love her.

13) Who is your least favourite character to write for? Why? Gonna be honest, while I love King as a character, I don't exactly like writing him. I feel like if I wrote him as more of an active part of the story, it would detract entirely from the whole thing. Second would be my OC, Robert Almade solely because I feel like he can be much more fleshed out, but also because there are parts of his character that I did write that just don't make complete sense to me. This should be worked out later.

14) How did you come up with the title for the xxx? - You can ask about multiple stories. For Soul Bound, I literally asked a Discord server for ideas because all the titles I did think of were shit XD. However, I recently came up with the title for my Skarlow punk band AU, Skara and the Wallflower, based on the book/movie The Perks of Being a Wallflower as well as band names in general.

15) If you write OC’s, how do you decide on their names? I normally think about the themes the character embodies and how they may change and grow throughout the story, and then I translate specific keywords into different languages and trim them in a way that sound like a name.

16) How did you come up with the idea for xxx?[Ask me about a specific story]

17) Post a line from a WIP that you’re working on.“Oh, sure! Protect me from him, but let Amity take the brunt of it and possibly die? What if she is dead, Eda? What if I can’t see her again?”

18) Do you have any abandoned WIP’s? What made you abandon them? I'd rather not talk about it.

19) Are there any stories that you’ve written that you’d really love to do a sequel to? Possibly I may have one for Skara and the Wallflower if I feel up to it, however Soul Bound is going to be a one-and-done deal.

20) Are there any stories that you wished you’d ended differently? Yes!

21) Tell me about another writer(s) who you admire? What is it about them that you admire? @lunanight2012 @quirkquartz @descendantofthesparrow

22) Do you have a story that you look back on and cringe when you reread it? Any story that I haven't published.

23) Do you prefer listening to music when you’re writing or do you need silence? I do listen to music just to set in the general mood and once I get going, I can go either with or without it.

24) How do you feel about writing smutty scenes? I can write smut. However I don't ever feel comfortable publishing smut. It really just isn't for me.

25) Have you ever cried whilst writing a story? YES! I ABSOLUTELY HAVE!!!! SO MANY TEARS BECAUSE OF THE ANGST!!!

26) Which part of your xxx fic was the hardest to write? This most recent chapter was actually the hardest to write because I was already so scared when writing Scrying of the Soul that when I started writing this one, I didn't know how to settle down with this whole thing. I knew Luz needed to process her trauma before I introduced the ghost, but exactly how I felt like I had trouble with.

27) Do you make a general outline for your stories or do you just go with the flow? I have a varied mix of ways I outline. Yes, I do have a list of bullet points about what major plot points go where, but really that's all that comes together before I start writing. Soul Bound is completely plotted out in the very broad strokes, but the rest is just improvisation.

28) What is something you wished you’d known before you started posting fanfiction? That writing would be the single most fun thing that I have ever done and to be fair while I do want my stories to be the best they can be, just the fact that I'm getting them out there makes me happy.

29) Do you have a story that you feel doesn’t get as much love as you’d like? Gonna be honest, my one-shots don't get a lot of love, but it is entirely understandable.

30) In contrast to 29 is there a story which gets lots of love which you kinda eye roll at? Ya know, Imma just say a song title that I wrote that many people love that I've grown to just not like. Ticking Time Away.

31) Send me a fic recommendation and I’ll post it for my followers to see! (The asker is to send the rec, not the answerer)Yeah, sure!

32) Are any of your characters based on real people? The way I characterize Odalia is based on a mix of what is already established. That and a heavy doseage of my abuser and their mindset. Which is kind of why it felt cathardic writing that scene in Conflicts.

33) What’s the biggest compliment you’ve gotten? Honestly, whenever I make a revision and it is heavily praised by either a reader if I edited an already published chapter or a beta reader if I had revised a particular scene they didn't like. I thrive off of any good critique and it makes me want to do better.

34) What’s the harshest criticism you’ve gotten? I mean there are people who wouldn’t read just because what I wrote was a ghost fic, but tbh it wasn't even that harsh.

35) Do you share your story ideas with anyone else or do you keep them close to your chest? I normally share with other writers when I'm really excited so I can bounce ideas off of them, however specific story elements I keep close to my chest because that part feels like my personal touch moreso than the general idea.

36) Can you give us a spoiler for one of your WIP’s? HAHA NICE TRY BEYOTCH YOU JUST HAVE TO READ IT!! (Other than the fact that Amity does get her body back, but that's already been promised.)

37) What’s the funniest story you’ve written? The BEAN

38) If you could collab with any other writer on here, who would it be? (Perhaps this question will inspire some collabs!) If you’re shy, don’t tag the blog, just name them. I would honestly be willing to collab with anybody from the Good Witch Society on Discord. As well as my partner which we already talked about quite a few ideas that we had for stories.

39) Do you prefer first, second or third person? So, I do love writing inner monologue, however if I was ever staying in one character's perspective, it would just feel way too limiting. I prefer third person omniscient so I can at least give the reader insight into what's going on in everybody's heads.

40) Do people know you write fanfiction?IRL, yeah. But I have established that I am using this to exercise my own writing skills.

41) What’s you favourite minor character you’ve written? Emira I would actually consider a minor character in the grand scope of my story, however I absolutely adore writing her.

42) Song fic - What made you decide to use the song xxx for xxx.I write my own songs and to be completely fair, it was really spontaneous in Soul Bound, but I found out a plot point that could definitely weave in extremely well within the story.

Skara and the Wallflower being a punk band AU will definitely be a songfic with all original songs.

43) Has anyone ever guessed the plot twist of one of your fics before you posted it? Actually, nobody has ever really guessed a plot twist yet.

44) What is the last line you wrote? This really can't be good.

45) What spurs you on during the writing process? I already really adore the stories that I write and my goals are to write them and get them out there. I think about how the characters react and how things can go wrong in a way that makes sense.

46) I really loved your xxx fic. If you were ever to do a sequel, what do you think might happen in it?[Ask me for a specific story]

47) Here’s a fic title - insert a made up title. What would this story be about?[Ask me]

48) What’s your favourite trope to write? Friends to Lovers, hands down.

49) Can you remember the first fic you read? What was it about? To be completely honest, the first fic I read was a Zelda fic. I forgot what most of the plot was about, but it did involve Link and Zelda going into Termina and meeting up with this original character who did everything he can to fuck with the both of them. It's very vague, but I absolutely loved it and I never remembered it updating.

50) If you could write only angst, fluff or smut for the rest of your writing life, which would it be and why? I'd have to cave and say angst. I like to have conflict in my stories, but I never like to have it be complete brooding. Just some light trauma, you know?

If you wanna read my stories, they’re all right here: F1uffyTurtle

[chameeleons]

4am thoughts

Tfw you have so much in your head right now bc you're trying to get your sleep ritual going on but the things you're doing actually make you excited to see what happens in the future. That and whatever happened during the day that took made me put a lot of effort to mentally distracting myself from listening to the horror shows my sister was watching that of course my HSP self doesn't like and mental health not in a mood to watch violence and negative things. These things keep me up at night and I feel like I don't have patience to clear my mind and tell myself that I can get my sleep. Bc I only slept 5hrs yesterday sleeping at 3am, waking up at 7am bc my mom babysits my niece and nephew but their loud voices wake me up, and my sensitive self that reacts to loud noises and lights does not feel tired after that hour and so I stay awake until 10am to finally feel sleep kick in. Wake up at 12:45pm, could sleep more bc I honestly felt tired, but bc I don't wanna see my dad telling me I'm messed up and then feel bad for my sleep schedule that I could just go on the day with the minimal hours and feel tired all day to hopefully sleep longer that night bc I'm tired AF. Unexpected visits from my siblings in which I genuinely felt happy for but bc of that I exert more energy and extroversion which I was tired AF bc of my hours of sleep, so of course if I exert so much it affects me more since irregular sleep causes changes in memory, self esteem, confusion and slowness, etc. And then to make it worse bc I want to spend time with my family, my sister decides to watch a horror show that my HSP self and mental health don't find appealing so then I have to get myself out of the headspace I'm in which took me to my night routine to listen to positive music, draw, distract myself, and talk myself out of that. The amount of energy I exerted today or should I say yesterday, was too much for the hours of sleep I was going on and its effects, plus my mental health that I'm trying to keep safe and practicing self love bc when I'm in those moments I forget about it and critique myself. My mom tells me to sleep since I was trying to clear my mind from the negative thoughts and I'm like... I can't say you're wrong bc I know you know little about what it feels like, but I know what's best for me right now. I could tell her but she would go on about telling me to just try and calm myself or say but why did that make you get like that making me feel like I'm exaggerating or annoying her and it causes me a mental UGH! Having to explain makes me feel like she doesn't know already how much of a struggle it can feel like I'm already in, but I know that's just my mind at the moment and its temporary. But at the moment I gotta try my best and have love and patience for myself. But the other side of me says, is it not more apparent than it already is! Do you not see me and where I'm at?! Of course everything is not okay right now. Just bc I'm ok a couple days or weeks does not mean I'm not going through stuff during each day or that I'm not trying my best. All that stuff is just so much and I'm crying in which I hadn't been able to today even though I felt like it especially when trying to talk to mom when she was knitting in order to distract myself from my headspace bc of the goddamn horror show. And I just felt like I tried to not think about it much and instead try to focus on my mom's convo but I wasn't completely there and that makes me feel bad bc she probably thought I was ok and just talking to her, but I was just talking to her to help myself and wasn't genuinely happy. I felt like I was masking myself, trying on the inside, failing a couple times, yet my mom didn't know anything. And I just... I can't do that to myself bc even though I'm prone to criticize myself I can't treat myself this way. I'm gonna have to tell her bc I can't always try by myself bc whenever I don't feel good I should tell someone even though independence is also good to not develop codependency. And I know I don't like to be a burden but I gotta try and love myself and speak up when I don't like something. They should be able to understand bc even tho I can try to place boundaries and such to certain things, I can't be the only one doing this especially when they already know what I'm going through. Meanwhile, I'm waiting for the health department to send me a notification about my health insurance application bc I want to go see a therapist. All these thoughts and the rough day I had yesterday aren't helping me get my sleep. I'm hoping writing this can help me just get the stuff that I'm thinking and feeling outta my mind. I want to renew my spirit and soul to feel ready to give my best and try to refresh and clear my mind so I can focus on sleeping. But if I don't get sleep I also don't wanna feel bad. I KNOW AND IT HURTS ME that I'm not taking care of my physical body but my soul needs it more! It's what drives this flesh and I'm TRYING MY BEST! BE KIND TO YOURSELF DEAR ME! I know you're going though a lot right now that makes you feel like it's not enough but I AM ENOUGH! I AM BUILDING MYSELF AND ITS TOUGH BUT I WILL LOOK BACK ONE DAY TO THIS SEASON WHEN I WAS AT A LOW POINT AND SEE AND VALUE HOW MUCH I TRIED AND DID TO HAVE SELF COMPASSION TO HELP MYSELF AND IT DOESNT MATTER HOW MUCH I AGED OR WHATEVER BC I MADE IT AND I'LL BE WONDERFUL AND GRATEFUL FOR EACH MOMENT MY MIND, BODY, AND SOUL WAS A WARRIOR FOR MY OWN SAKE! BC FOR ONCE I WAS THINKING AND ACTING FOR MYSELF! *i don't care if you read this. Sometimes I'm just tired of keeping things below. I know I'm not doing so good and I accept that myself. I'm being brave here bc I never have exposed such information or would have felt confident or careless to show these sides of me. I want to feel good about writing this and not feel regret or overthink and nit pick everything I do.