#lowkey queerbaiting

[will-go-down-on-your-sister]

Created to be lovers, forced by society to be best friends and nothing more

[cowchickenbeefpork]

It is fascinating to me that Edward nygma is the only man who has someone in love with them kill their lover and justify it. Every time this happens to a character besides from Ed it happens to a female character. The fact his own desperation to not face responsibility for doing that action toward a woman makes this more tragic

[logosbot-tm]

Garrence is that one ship I will forever be pissed never became canon.

[karaspal]

crazy how seasons change, years pass, yet supercorp shippers are still some of the worst fucking people on the internet.

[ocdhuacheng]

Just learned that apparently people had been calling the summer hikaru died queerbaiting as if this is not one of the most devastating allegories for rural queer youth I have ever read

[chirpsythismorning]

Personal opinion; I think the Duffers are doing a mistake by not promoting Byler as a possibility at all. I know some people are gonna say that it is because they are trying to keep Byler as a plot twist, but still, they can promote the idea of it without going too far.

We like to say that how the 'ElMikeWill' love triangle is not acknowledged as a love triangle by the GA, Melvins or other fans, but honestly? It is not that it is not acknowledged as a 'love triangle' by non-Bylers, it is that it is not acknowledged as a love triangle by the show, creators or writers. It is not promoted like how Stancy versus Jancy thing is promoted. Mike’s not conditioned as having to choose between El and Will. Honestly, If I were to make my audience get warm for the idea of Byler potentially happening, i would put content regarding it, would try to portray the situation as a love triangle, like ‘Which person Mike is going to choose?’ questions would be on media outlets. Remember that the Duffers still refer to Stancy versus Jancy thing as a love triangle, they portray it as a situation where Nancy has to choose someone, media outlets talk about the love triangle aspect. Whereas for Mike and El and Will, there isn’t something like that. Mike’s not conditioned as being in a love triangle where he has to choose. Will’s situation only gets referred to as relatable and him getting acceptance. They portray Mike and El as a legitimate couple without any question, etc. That’s not exactly portraying as ‘love triangle’ situation here.

Take this as a criticism towards how they're approaching the situation, I guess. Now, I do not know what they're going to do once the trailers or filming or promoting whatever start in a couple of months. But so far, I think they just... are doing nothing and it is not good, imho.

This is all fair!

I do believe that they're going to have no choice but to be more obvious about byler endgame in promo for s5. And so I agree that in large part how I feel about their approach thus far does rely on what is still yet to come.

Personally, I think it's going to be impossible to throw in happy couple milkvan moments, seeing as there wont be any scenes like that. Not saying they wouldn't trick fans with simple fast shots of them side by side dispersed throughout a teaser or something, I just don't think they're going to go all out with trying to convince the audience that Mike and El are romantic in official s5 promo.

S5 is going to be a point when baiting milkvan romantically would be an odd choice if they want people to fully accept byler romantically. So, I do sense that a shift will happen as s5 gets closer and when promo really starts ramping up.

We already technically saw that with s4, where they didn't really prioritize Mike/El in official posters, like at all? We got couple posters for Netflix covers with Jopper/Lumax/Byler, while the one featuring El was her on her own? Then there's the Cali poster with Mike looking at Will, his feet pointing towards him, literally detouring in Will's direction like that meme... Them willing to be that obvious for s4 posters tells me that the s5 posters are going to be even more obvious. If you think about it, it honestly would have been weird to have no byler in s4 posters, same with no byler in s5 posters, only for them to end up together? Thus far that has not been the case tho bc s4 was unhinged as hell, and so it's likely s5 is going to be the same and then some.

That's the other thing about promo with like official posters and trailers, in that they hold a lot more weight to representing the deeper message of the story, especially when the show is complete with all five parts making it like a whole experience. The posters for every season will be highly regarded as holding the truth to what was truly going on. While I do get being frustrated that they don't post enough about it casually on social media, it's just that, tbh no ones going to be using simple social media posts as hard evidence from way back in the day at the end of all this (it's more just a fun addition to the real shit). They're going to be looking at official promotion that was very intricately planned out with easter eggs and very specific foreshadowing in mind, ie. official posters, teasers, and trailers.

When it comes to the whole love triangle thing, with byler paralleling to jancy and milkvan paralleling to stancy, I think there are a couple reasons why they themselves can't acknowledge those parallels.

While I recognize those parallels, and I do agree on a basic level it's all intentionally paralleled deliberately in certain aspects, I still don't necessarily think these love triangles are intended to be seen as identical situations. They have different stakes and completely different circumstances, beyond the most basic similarities between them in that we're also dealing with 2 sets of siblings that are quite similar in character and so no duh they parallel each other.

The main thing that I think gets overlooked is that byler is meant to be a sort of callback to all of the queer-baiting in media that has led us to this point. The only reason they made the choice to go about byler this way, was to subvert a very deep rooted expectation that a boy and boy ending up together on a mainstream show cannot happen. They are feeding this expectation to an audience that is happy to abide by this norm, which is what is going to make the surprise of the boy and boy ending up together, and the fact that this time the gays were actually right instead of wrong for the #1,239 time, just makes it all the more epic.

While they are attempting to follow that same pattern of every other show on the surface, they are hiding the truth in the details. This means that they can get away with quote--unquote 'queer-baiting' within the show itself by making it arguably obvious Mike returns Will's feelings, but because they never acknowledge that it's happening at all outside of the show blatantly, they're technically not queer-baiting.

Them not outright acknowledging the love triangle going on, outside of the subtext on the show itself, works in their favor in fandom spaces as well, where it's super easy for fans to stay in denial because of all of these different things at play, most of all ensuring they can fall back on the safety-net that queer-baiting will always be the norm. The Duffers are nurturing that assumption, while also trying as hard as they can to hint to the audience in the details how close minded that assumption truly is.

They're setting the audience up basically. Those that aren't willing to consider byler even when presented with hard evidence, wont. And those that are willing to consider byler when presented with hard evidence, will. Both sides are able to be somewhat comfortable in their assumptions, bc the side that is unwilling to consider it has history on their side, whereas the side willing to consider it knows that the evidence is too astronomical to not be entirely intentional.

That's the whole reason they did the monologue with Mike saying I love you 9 times... because it allowed that sector of the fandom to be comfortable in their assumptions based on what was being superficially told to them, despite everything being shown to them surrounding that event outright contradicting those assumptions.

It's all very, very intricate, as they are making decisions with the audience's reactions in mind.

I am glad you brought up the love triangle parallels, bc this concept was eating my brain the other day. Though, I was more so hung up on the fact that them not acknowledging those parallels also could in and of itself mean that the rules don't necessarily apply identically to these love triangles?

Arguably, fans are still going to ship Mike and El just like fans are still going to ship Nancy and Steve post s5 regardless of them not being endgame. But, is that what they want at the end of all of this? I think with Nancy and Steve the stakes are nowhere near as high as the sort of build up and tearing down of Milkvan, in that, by not at all acknowledging Will's role in these events like they do with Jonathan, they are saying that it isn't as simple as Mike just falling out of love with El like it was for Nancy with Steve, only to realize her feelings for Jonathan.

If it was that simple, they wouldn't have needed to carry out this fandom wide misinterpretation of Mike not saying I love you over the course of 2 seasons and STILL at the end of all that, have that audience completely in the dark about Will's role in that conflict, unless the truth is way more complex here than it was for Jancy/Stancy.

I mean you could obviously make the argument that from the beginning the Duffers framed Stancy very negatively, so maybe at the end of all of this, they do want to make it obvious that they never wanted us to ship either of them in the first place? HOWEVER them holding off on this concept outright with byler is why I think it would make sense for it to be this big thing, bc otherwise why save it for the last season? It would feel sort of anti-climactic if they treated it just like the other love triangle's situation bc of the confusion they have caused? This is no doubt going to be fucking breaking news to the majority. They're gonna need a recap and context of everything that was left out or intentionally kept from them, otherwise they're not going to be able to subscribe properly to what happens in s5.

And then there's a whole other layer of familial implications we're dealing with. Like with Jonathan and Steve, they don't have to deal with the complexity of being siblings like Will and El do. Will and Mike ending up together means that El and Mike will literally be ending the show in a sibling dynamic. And so, I do think it makes more sense for them to really want to separate the viewer from being able to ship Mike and El together, especially when they're already a little nervous fans will be too homophobic to accept byler as it is. This would make a lot of the familial references with Mike/El in earlier seasons hit a lot harder too, assuming rewatch value with byler endgame was on their minds.

So, I guess I will say I would agree fully with all of your points if this was an average love triangle, but that's not the case here. We're dealing with a bizarre love triangle by definition and I think there's different stakes that make their approach to this valid. When it's all said and done, it will make a lot of sense even if it doesn't right now.

Though, if i'm being completely honest, I think what plays the biggest role in their reasoning is hiatus. Like it truly comes down to the audience having almost 2+ years to ruminate over what happened in s4 and sort of work through that and drive themselves crazy.

If they had treated byler as an equal option to milkvan blatantly in casual promo for s4, while still attempting to make it seem like milkvan was endgame, it would have been dubbed queer-bait irrefutably. Or worse, most fans would have figured out byler was likely to happen, making the 2 year wait and the hype of s5 promo sort of fall flat bc everyone saw it coming.

Instead, a lot of people are fully confident it cannot and will not happen. Like they are 100% convinced. And we still have at least a year for them to work through that assumption...

Something to also keep in mind, is how they've dealt with leaks worse and worse over the years. And so a lot of these really exciting surprises they have, get discovered before they get the chance to reveal them. But bc so many people are homophobic, they can have a lot of evidence for byler and still manage to make this a surprise to those people. That's what makes this revelation so fun to them. Because it's soooo obvious in their eyes and yet most of their audience doesn't want to see it. Like that's gotta be very satisfying for them in a big way. I can't even imagine.

How I see it going down, or at least how I think it would make sense for it to go down, is while hiatus is still going strong, they want to keep both sides fairly confident, but especially milkvans side because that is eventually going to disappear at the end of all of this. The clock is ticking. When it's over it will be over forever. And so I understand why they're trying to hold onto giving those fans hope that milkvan will happen bc they only have so much longer for that to even be an assumption before the truth is eventually revealed.

And yet still, there will be a point when they want the audience to like s5 and accept it as the best ending, and that will mean that s5 promo will present a major shift in terms of them sort of agknowleding that the fans who have been paying attention know that the writers care about the details. That people who say the deatils don't matter are not going to be ready for what is to come. That is going to very likely be the wake up call to those that have been using stuff like them forgetting Will's birthday means that they forget things and therefore nothing can be that deep. It will no doubt be a punch in the gut for sure to those that have been in denial about that, but it's going to happen and it's probably going to happen within less than a year before the premiere.

6 months is another time frame that I could see them getting more brave.

3 months is when it's going to start getting real.

1 month and weeks, days before, it's going to be crunch time. They're going to be very heavily encouraging rewatching the show. They're going to be getting defensive arguably to prepare themselves for the inevitable backlash.

But they also know that it doesn't matter because at the end of the day, the truth was hiding in the details all along. It didn't come out of nowhere. It was right there. I think they feel comfort in that no matter what, bc anyone claiming it came out of nowhere at the end of all this, is gonna look stupid when the creators themselves are saying that is the opposite of the truth.

And then when s5 finally does come out, likely in 2 volumes to hold onto the hype as long as they possibly can, before it ends forever, that's when it will really set in that they're not going to hold back anymore and this is officially canon now. That's when the cast will fully agknoweldge it and talk about it and how they dealt with keeping it in the dark for so long and why felt the need to do it this way. And that's when hopefully you and all of us will get the closure we need.

The idea is that the satisfaction of being the first ones right ever in the history of mainstream television, is going to be immensely satisfying. Arguably, seeing those who vehemently denied it happening's reactions to it happening, will make all of the doubt along the way worth it.

[tinogiehd]

i'm already seeing people say dream made george make that snapchat 😭

twitter users when george is a grown man with free will

[partyswirl]

if mcyt queerbait tournament does a second round or needs someone to sub in we have to get sliemcicle in there STAT (even though he barely pkays minecraft anyway

[usercelestial]

∆∆∆

[iwilltransyourgender]

Can we take a second to appreciate that while everyone else is generally looking sexy and mysterious, Taub is just a goofy lil guy who’s so happy to be there?

promotional poster of bisexuality

[flying-ham]

I’m glad we’re getting queer rep these days but lowkey miss when they would just shamelessly queerbait. bring back the days of 22 episodes of homoerotic bullshit and then when you ask about it eric kripke runs you over with the impala and jeff davis finishes the job with the jeep

[raylenships]

GUYS. GUYS. It's gonna be okay. Just think of it this way because I saw @tastywormfood talking about this and it lowkey comforted me just a tiny bit.

Season 4 is a prequel, okay? It's the badly written season that they tried to fit in between s2 and 3 but did a terrible job. S3 is the actual finale where we get the yummy Snufmin angst and fluff and an amazing ending. So here's a lil comfort checklist that'll for sure cheer us all up after the long disastrous few days we've suffered through.

1. Take a nice long breath of Moominvalley air and say some positive affirmations.

-"S4 is a prequel"

-"Snufmin is the original meant-to-be"

-"I will survive this. Probably"

-"S3 will save me"

-"So will fanfiction"

2. Rewatch S3 and bask in the warmth that is Snufmin fluff and pining. Specifically, watch episode 8. Near the end. 18:36. Don't judge me.

3. Go to AO3 and pray to the Hobgoblin that it isn't shut down for once. If the Hobgoblin answers your prayers, go read every Snufmin fic you can get your paws on. I promise you'll feel better ;)

4. Let's all go pay @faygosta on YouTube a visit and blow up his notifications on his old Snufmin 3d video. Gotta get this guy to save our lives and help us create the better season that was always meant to be, am I right? Plus, his video alone could do a great deal of cheering up. Trust me.

5. Art is a great healing method and Pinterest is a great place to start your Snufmin art therapy sessions. God knows how much we need them after this.

6. Keep up hope that there's actually gonna be a finale episode in the coming months that I've been hearing snippets about. Maybe we'll get a little more mercy and kindness from the writers then after they've had a chance to simmer in the heat of the crockpot mess of a fandom they've created.

Good lord I have never been so disappointed in my life. We got queerbaited like no fandom has ever been before(unless the newly shortened Good Omens season has anything to say about it). But we are a strong fandom, a united fandom, one that cares about justice and freedom for their gay lil bois. Can I get an AMEN?! We'll get through this somehow!

[yourfavoritecommentor]

Discussion. How high, realistically, do we think are the chances of nandormo ending up cannon? Discuss.

(I'm getting nervous and even tho I thought the chances were good, after seeing following tiktok I'm not so sure anymore, please someone share their opinion I'm going insane)

+ this comment

Now I think this so be a very wierd thing to say but what if this person is right? I am quite scared that the writers will force a straight relationship just because, which in my mind would be just a weirdly disapointing choice of writing. Purely because of the fact that we have astablished already that Guillermo and Nandor have been set up for a romantic(-y) relationship in past episodes and seasons and this is not just the audiences imagination. I think it would lowkey be a hard hit for queer media to take but also very disapointing and sad right? And why it that? BECAUSE THEY WERE SET UP FOR A ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP VERY FUCKING OBVIOUSLY?!?!

(also to the commentor from the tiktok this would 100% not be a thing you would say if it was about a straight ship, not indicating anything but I feel like you might not be so fond of queer media representation)

|| Edit: Please know that this is not me complaining just because there might not be gayness happening after all AND ALSO PLEASE KNOW THAT I DO NOT WANT THEM TO BE JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE TWO MEN (please believe me I'm not that kind of wierd😔🙏🏻) + accusing the show/writers of queerbait + I did NOT EVEN know about this ship when I started watching the show and I don't rely my enjoyment of it solely on this ship BUT I feel like this is just more proof of their pre-romantic relationship? Them not ending up together will not ruin my enjoyment of the show and my sencere wish for them to end up together is just me getting my lill emotions involved in their lill fictional relationship, I'm not forcing a ship onto anyone/thing this is a thing in the show that actors and writers are aware of obvi??

‼️Also I do this here is for funsies and nothing more so never take me too seriously‼️||

[flameraven]

This! I always write them as ace, partly because I am aroace and it has been a great comfort to see a relationship like the one I want on screen, but also...

Angels do not reproduce. They were all created by God in this universe (per Neil Gaiman). By default they do not have a gender or sex organs. Why would they feel sexual desire? We've seen that it took Aziraphale 1500 years to be tempted into trying food, and he still doesn't sleep. Crowley doesn't seem that keen on eating. And Aziraphale describes even romantic love as "what humans do."

They're not human. They're not even biological creatures. They've picked up a lot from humans, but I don't think sexual desire is necessarily included. Could they try it out and like it? Sure. But they could also see it as totally unnecessary and have no interest in this weird, squishy biological process.

I cannot say how much of a relief it is to see a relationship on screen that is deep and supportive and loving that ISN'T hugely focused on the physical aspect. And it is frustrating and very tiring to see that so often ignored in fandom with the presumption by many that "of course they're fucking" or "Aziraphale couldn't possibly resist Crowley when he looked like that."

Your allonormativity shows, fandom. As OP said, I'm not surprised-- this is what fandom does. But just. Try to challenge your assumptions sometimes. And then maybe I won't have to block as many people for low key aphobia.

Crowley and Aziraphale canonically do not have sex organs. There is no indication that they have ever experienced sex or have a desire to.

And apparently... people do not like this. They are resistant to accepting it in a way that, as an asexual, it's hard not to take personally.

But I don't really think it's personal. I think it's just that allosexual thinking is so prevalent, people default to 'but why WOULDN'T they?' instead of 'why WOULD they?' Even though the latter question makes a lot more sense in this context. Allosexual thinking has us expecting that love = sex, and that any being who enjoys good food or music or other Earthly pleasures must also want to try it. Even though many real human people enjoy those pleasures and have no desire for sex at all. Why wouldn't these ethereal beings be like us in that regard?

And look, I've been in enough fandoms by now not to be surprised by any of this. What DO you do with a ship if not have them fuck? That's always the end goal, right? But there's a fine line between fantasizing (always fine) and actually expecting reality - or canon - to work that way. Canonically, we have a sexless romantic relationship that does not, by any sort of default, have to turn into a sexual one to be valid. That's amazing. That almost never happens. But if you went by fan discussions, you probably wouldn't even realize that was the case.

The thing is... aphobia doesn't always look like hatred, or ridicule. Sometimes it looks like erasure. Sometimes it looks like a persistent tendency to sexualize the sexless in order to make it more interesting, or palatable, or to make the relationship 'complete'. It's not on purpose, like that. It's cultural normalcy talking. None of us are untouched by it, and it's easy not to realize.

I don't think I'm coming to a point here. I'd just like if fan discussions weren't always overrun by allosexual expectations. But I also don't really expect it to lead to a lot of self-reflection. I mean, it's fandom. It's whatever. It shouldn't even bother me. But apparently it does, so I wanted to talk about it. And put it out there in case, perhaps, anyone else has been sitting on these feelings and would like to vent.

[suh01]

ngl i don't get destiel.. i mean most of the time dean lowkey treats him like shit, doesn't give nearly as much of a fuck about him as he does abt sam or even some other ppl like.. sam is dying/dies: gotta make a deal, gotta sacrifice myself, kill death, whatever. cas dies: hmm. that sucks but hey. it is what it is.

like if i shipped it i would be constantly pissed. but i guess if you don't wanna go with the incestous ship this is the best you can get.. it's just i remember back in the day when spn was big here, ppl were always raving about queerbaiting and how obviously gay cas and dean were for each other and then you watch the show and it's actually about two insanely codependent brothers and cas is sometimes there. maybe he has a crush on dean. but it doesn't really matter

[edwin-paynes-bowtie]

I have so many wonderful things to say about XO Kitty season 2. And I will say them. All my underlying complaints really stem back to a single issue, but I feel like right now I have to word-vomit the Problem because it's, like, tickling my brain.

I do not like the way queer characters, plotlines, and concepts were handled in XO Kitty season 2. At all.

To be clear - this show is not queerbaiting. It is about a bisexual girl (Kitty) who ends up with a boy who is a perfect match for her (Minho).

What does bother me is that after the Kitty/Yuri kiss and its fallout, Kitty's queerness is never addressed again. Not even in passing! Praveena declares she's no longer interested in her, and we never hear anything about girls or bisexuality surrounding Kitty again.

I also really do not appreciate the way that Yuri was treated. Yuri, a main character and a main love interest in season one, underwent some insane character assassination this season. All of her sharp personality traits were immediately gone, and she was made a very flat side character right off the bat. But the nail in the coffin was her cheating on Juliana with Kitty. What the fuck? Juliana was her every thought last season. She was miserable without her. She went to great lengths to talk to her and to get her back to KISS. But the second Juliana is back, and their relationship is generally good!!! ...She cheats on Juliana, her girlfriend of a year, with Kitty? And for what!? She gets completely sidelined after that! She and Kitty are hardly even friends anymore! So they broke Yuri and Juliana up for nothing, and ruined Yuri's character for nothing.

Also, it SUCKS that Yuri has no friends, no girlfriend, and now her family's being sued and she lost her money. The show just kept beating her down. It was lowkey ridiculous.

The only good thing I'll say about that kissing whole situation is that Kitty wasn't exclusive with Praveena. I don't really think Kitty did anything morally awful, and we narrowly avoided the cheating bisexual trope - even if I didn't love it.

I also want to talk about Juliana. She was one of my favorite characters in the season, and the way that she just totally dropped off the grid was mad. She and Yuri broke up, we saw her like three more times, and at the end she's in a weird pair the spares relationship with Praveena. It gave the vibes of "hey.... they're both lesbians.... they should know each other." Not great.

I also personally really did not like Q's new love interest. He was juvenile and a complete and utter asshole. He underwent very little character growth. He and Florian both suck and Q could do better, but he's been the quintessential GBF trope since day 1 and I guess can't branch out into his own character.

I have to wonder what the fuck the writers were thinking when they botched every queer storyline this badly.

My theory is that the writers saw Netflix cancel tons of top-performing queer shows (like my beloved Dead Boy Detectives) and panicked. Then they just removed all traces of queerness as much as they could to avoid cancelation.

But, whether or not that's true, it's very annoying and feels like a massive L for me as a bi woman.