#looks at gravity falls and Voltron and every other animated kids shows with an older fanbase that Dist

[yuripira4e]

say you ship Jaya and no one bats an eye… but say you ship kailor and society!!! society goes wild!!!

[rachelbethhines]

Tangled Salt Marathon - One Angry Princess

There’s two halves to this episode. The first is a well constructed, if over simple, mystery for the kiddos to solve. The other is a failed attempt at being ‘deep’ and ‘mature’.  

Summary: Attila is finally opening up his own bakery, but people generally don't want to stop by because of his scary helmet. The next day, Monty's Sweet Shoppe is destroyed, and Attila is arrested. He is about to be banished from the kingdom, but Rapunzel makes an appeal to investigate the matter further. 

The Episode is Meant to be a Homage to 12 Angry Men, but Misses the Point of the Original Film

So for those who haven’t seen the movie, (though really you should) 12 Angry Men is about a jury trying to decide if an accused person is guilty of a violent crime. At first the evidence seems clear, but one lone juror refuses to vote guilty until the evidence has been gone over again. One by one he convinces the other men to vote not guilty as they each have to face they’re own personal biases.

Sound familiar? 

In the show Rapunzel is the sole believer in Attila’s innocence despite evidence to the contrary. She insists on investigating herself while challenging everyone else’s personal biases. 

The difference?

12 Angry Men is a hard hitting look at how privilege, prejudice, and cognitive bias can interfere with the American judicial system. None of the jurors are named, but they are all middle class, presumably Christian, white guys. And that is the point. They are all different from the accused; a young, poor, arguably non-white teen (the play is intentionally vague about the kid’s race so that you can slot any minority in there) who has a history of getting into trouble. If you were to change the ethnicity, race, gender, class, or age of any of the 12 characters then you would suddenly have a very different story. It’s their backgrounds and pre-formed opinions that inform their decisions. Even the main protagonist is not exempt from re-examining his own personal biases. 

Meanwhile the writers of Tangled: the Series are too busy showing off how clever Rapunzel is to actually deal with the themes of injustice and bigotry that they added in themselves in the first place.

Rapunzel Knowing Attila Before Hand Weakens the Message

In 12 Angry Men none of the jurors know the accuse. In fact, they can’t know him. It’s against the law. In order to have an impartial jury, no one can have any ties to either the defendant or the prosecution, and they must not have knowledge of the case or have had specific experiences that might cause them to be biased or unfair. 

Rapunzel being Attila’s friend means that she already has her own bias and an invested interest in making sure Attila goes free. She’s not acting out of the simple goodness of her heart here. She’s doing something that directly benefits herself. 

I don’t expect a children’s fantasy show to recreate the US judicial system with all of the complexities there in, but I do expect it to uphold it’s heroine as the selfless person it claims her to be. Yet the show constantly undermines this supposed character trait by only having her help the people she befriends, and only if that help doesn’t require anything emotionally challenging or mentally taxing from her.   

How much more powerful would this episode be if Rapunzel was defending a stranger or someone she actively disliked? Imagine if it was Monty who was being accuse and Raps had to swallow her pride in order to do what is right. But that would require the show having Rapunzel actually learn something instead of placing her on a pedestal. It would also mean giving Monty a reason to exist rather than keeping him around to be a convenient red herring.      

Rapunzel Shouldn’t Have to Prove Attila’s Innocence 

Rather than have a courtroom drama the show opts to have a ‘whodunit’ story instead. This unfortunately gives the implication that Corona’s judicial system runs on a ‘guilty until proven innocent’ mantra, which is backwards to any humane legal system. ‘Innocent until proven guilty’, ‘reasonable doubt’, ‘due process’, are the cornerstones of our modern social ethics. 

In 12 Angry Men, we never find out if the accused actually committed the crime or not. That is because his actual innocence isn’t the point of the story. It’s about whether or not the system is working like it should or if it’s being compromised by human error. 

Once again, I don’t expect a recreation of the US judicial system, but if you’re writing a story for a modern audience then you need to reinforce modern morals. Simply crouching Corona’s legal system as ‘of the times’ or ‘fantasy’ while ignoring why we no longer have such systems in place reduces the story to puerile fare. 

It also means that show’s writers didn’t put enough thought into their world building. 

No One Calls Out the Obviously Corrupt System 

The show has interwoven throughout its ongoing narrative themes of classism, injustice, abuse, and authoritarianism, but then fails to follow through on those themes by not having any of the protagonists actually examine any of these issues. They just sit there in the background, even as the show tries it darndest to present Rapunzel as an arbiter of reform. However a person can’t bring about change if they can’t even admit that there is a problem to begin with.   

In this episode alone we have

Banishment is considered a reasonable punishment for an act of vandalism. A crime that is usually considered only a misdemeanor unless the damage goes over a certain amount. Keep in mind that not even most felonies would be given such a punishment in the real world

Introduces the prison barge that regularly carries away convicts. In the past ‘undesirables’ would be shipped off to prison colonies as a form of persecution. Attila and every other person we see subjected to Corona’s legal system are of a lower class. 

Many prejudge Attila based off his appearance, lower class, and past upbringing. However, it is either Attila who is expected to change or Rapunzel who is expected to win people over. At no point is anyone told that they shouldn’t be prejudiced to begin with. 

There is no judge, jury, or lawyers. The king alone decides the fate of criminals, the Captain is expected to be the both the prosecutor and the ‘executioner’, which is a conflict of interest, and the defendant has no one to represent them unless they so happen to know a kind statesperson. Meaning you have to be either rich or well connected in order to even have a chance to defend yourself. 

Oh and there’s this...

Uh, yeah you do. You’re the flipping king. You make the law. You’re the one to bring charges against Attila, and nearly every other criminal in the show, in the first place. 

The show constantly wants us to view Frederic as simply an everyman who is only doing his job, but he’s not. He’s a ruler and as such he has powers and responsibilities that no one else has or ever will have. The series gives both him and Rapunzel all of the privileges of being in charge without holding them to account for the consequences of their actions. 

By not pointing out how wrong these actions are, the show winds up avocating them instead. When I call Tangled the Series authoritarian, this is why. Because authority is never questioned even when clearly wrong and nepotism is presented as the solution to conflicts as oppose to being the problem itself.

The Show Introduces Complex Issues but Then Oversimplifies the Conflicts Surrounding Those Issues

The creators of the show have constantly declared that the series is ‘not for kids’. That they were shooting for an older audience than the pre-school time slot they were given. Now ignoring the fact that Tangled was always going to have a built in audince of pre-teen girls and ignoring that children’s media can be mature, TTS lacks the nuance needed to viewed as anything other than a pantomime. 

As stated before, this episode alone ignores the very real issues interlaced within the conflict in order to give us an overly simple mystery that anyone over the age of five could figure out.  

It’s frustrating to watch the show constantly skirt towards the edge of complexity only to see it chicken out and go for the low hanging fruit instead. As a consequence the series winds up being for no one. Too shallow for adults and older teens, but too confused in its morals to be shown to small children and younger adolescents. 

I wouldn’t recommend this show to a parent, not without encouraging them to view the series either before or alongside their child in order to counteract it���s ‘lessons’ and I know parents within the fandom itself who’ve stopped showing newer episodes to their kids; stating that they want their child to be old enough to point out the harmful messages to before doing so. 

Once Again No One Learns Anything 

Rapunzel doesn’t learn that the system is flawed. Attila doesn’t learn to open up to people. Nobody learns to treat people with respect and to not judge others based on appearances alone.

The whole point of the episode is to just show off how much ‘better’ Rapunzel is than everyone else. The show constantly feels the need to tear down other characters in an effort to make its favs look good as opposed to just letting the mains grow as people. 

Conclusion

Tangled the tv series is no 12 Angry Men. It’s no Steven Universe/Gravity Falls/Avatar:TLA/She-Ra/Gargoyles/Batman:TAS either. It barely reaches the same level as the likes of DnD, Sonic SATAM, or Voltron. Interesting ideas but poor pacing, build up, and lack of follow through, with some naff decisions thrown into the mix bring things down in quality. And unlike the Dungeons and Dragons cartoon from the early 80s, TTS lacks the benefit of being a pioneer in the field of animation, where such flaws are more forgivable. 

[sarasanddollar]

SARA'S VAGUE SENSE OF HOW CARTOONS PROGRESSED:

as requested by @chintastic and @whatdoesthefauxsay, and specifically requested by @lunagalemaster to be posted to Tumblr!

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh early 1900's animation becomes a thing in the West? Merrie Melodies, early Looney Tunes, that kind of thing. Black and white stuff, view in theater only, it's not "adult" but it's really for adults going to the theater and sort of "look at our technical skill!" sort of show (and as a form of escapism from the war, then the Depression, then the war again)

skip on down, Snow White happens, Disney is a phenomenon, we're not really looking at cartoons in the film circuit here tho so I won't be talking abt like Disney movies and Pixar et al. because that's a whole other animal

television gets invented !

"adult cartoons" that are like funny/sexy happen, stuff like Betty Boop, we're still figuring out what animation is for but plot starts to show up esp with the now popular Mickey/Bugs Bunny stuff

It's the mid 1900's, we're out of the war, I don't know what happens in this period, I know the Hays Law becomes a thing so censorship happens pretty fast, and Saturday morning cartoons directed solely for kids are officially a thing, so Inspector Gadget, Scooby-Doo, the Flintstones + the Jetsons, Alvin and the Chipmunks, Tom & Jerry, more Looney Tunes and Mickey Mouse cartoons. A lot of these toe that line between "cartoons for kids" and "cartoons for adults" by including little things that make it fun for parents too

It's the eighties!!! The Industry has figured out that they can make cartoons that [gasp] Sell Merchandise!!! to kids. So toy cartoons come out, that's all stuff like TMNT, My Little Pony, Transformers, X-Men, He-Man/She-Ra, Voltron, Rainbow Brite, Care Bears, and Strawberry Shortcake. The quality of storytelling goes DOWN down down down down and everything is just factory-churned out with the purpose of Selling Toys (tho we still hold a lot of these things pretty near and dear)

The nineties happen. Nickelodeon figures out that cartoons are good and kids like them! And starts airing those instead of live action and puppet shows. They realize, hey, what if... We had cartoons. ALL DAY. Instead of just on Saturdays, for an hour in the morning. They instate an all-day all-cartoon channel that is ONLY their original content (they borrowed stuff like Tom & Jerry up until then), and they follow a brand guideline to make sure it's... The kind of stuff kids like. It's funny, it's interesting, it's creator-driven, and it's not just to sell toys or just churned out to fill a time slot. Quality picks up! This is why 90s cartoons are still a classic today. But also TLDR Nickelodeon killed the Saturday morning timeslot

Cartoon Network follows suit. We get good stuff well into the early 2000s, and then Disney decides to throw in as well - they'd already had shows in the 80s based on their existing brand properties (Little Mermaid, Hercules, Aladdin, and ofc Micky Mouse, Chip+Dale, and DuckTales!) but we start getting original channel-only stuff like, well, American Dragon. More on that later.

The Simpsons. We start to get adults for cartoon that also have heart and morals, instead of just. Sex jokes (Simpsons has quite a few of those too though!). The Simpsons is a cultural icon and influences pretty much every kids cartoon you can imagine, from SpongeBob to Fairly OddParents.

Anime. Anime was beginning to become VERY popular in the States sometime in the seventies (backtracking a bit here) and popular stuff like, AstroBoy, Akira, Speed Racer, started getting ported to kids channels later on (with really bad dubs.) That got a greater and greater influence ESPECIALLY among adult weebs that weren't really as huge a group as they are now demanding Better Quality English-accessible stuff (there's a whole thing on the history of this that I don't have enough internet time to get into) and that started to happen, esp when Ghibli became a huge success, people started going crazy for it, and Disney was like hey ! a market ! and made Good Dubs with A-list guest star voice actors that started the anime revolution overseas

Speeding back up, we start getting things with overarching plots. Avatar happens. Avatar ... Is revolutionary, and that starts making people realize that hey :pikagasp: we can have things that are Complete. Instead of you know axing them halfway or keeping them static status quo for every episode. This is due to the influence of anime on the industry! Remember we're well into the early 2000s and anime is now more mainstream than ever. Naruto, FMA, Black Butler, OHSHC, Death Note, all that good stuff is happening at this point in time.

Avatar doesn't do anything though. It's just, different. Different enough that people remember. (And enough that everyone who worked on it worked on the aforementioned American Dragon - a lot of the same writers and actors, giving it a pretty good internal plot of its own!)

Stuff like Totally Spies happens! That's also anime influenced. Later we'll get stuff like the new Voltron, the new She-Ra, the return of Avatar with Korra, slowly but surely everyone is deciding that Japan is the good trend. Even Winx Club or Angel's Friends over in Italy gets the anime influence! Everyone knows what's up.

It's the early 2010 and cartoon quality goes... Down for a bit, around these points, we get stuff like Fanboy and Chum Chum, Fish Hooks, just, the so random xD rawr humor is what kids are into and the industry doesn't know what to do except gross out humor and barfing rainbows and it's just... Not memorable.

Except Adventure Time nails it and it's a PHENOMENON. I don't know what happened there but something about the childlike wonder and good humor being connected to the (you guessed it!) overarching plot causes a sensation like never before.

Gravity Falls.

Steven Universe.

Star vs. the Forces of Evil.

In Canada, Detentionaire.

A Scooby-Doo reboot during this time called Mystery Incorporated.

Suddenly this is the trend. Starting with ATLA but leading to AT, big scary mystery, big scary villain, episodes that CAN be viewed stand-alone but also super connect? THIS is the industry trend now and we are LOVING it. We love a story that... Progresses. Characters that grow and change. 80s kids are now older and want cartoons that are good, not just. Toys selling machines.

Streaming services killed the television star. It's a LOT easier to do the overarching plot thing now that you can sit and binge something in one sitting instead of waiting once a week/month to see one ep of a thing you already forgot what happened in last time.

My Little Pony!! Gets rebooted. It's 2013 and for SOME reason this has a huge following? A huge following of adult men, where it's a show for little girls. The brony movement was so huge it's often compared to how Star Trek became a big hit among female viewers way back when. This doesn't influence other shows in storytelling terms but it does change marketing - now your only audience might not be what you think it is. Everyone tries to follow suit by selling their shows to "adult fans," it doesn't always work but boy howdy! And well, MLP follows the trend of overarching plot too, best as it can.

It's the late 2010s and we're in the nostalgia age. Now 90s kids are older and they run the market - we're not trying to make new stuff or support new creators, we're trying to salvage what was and make money off what people loved before. Reboot after reboot after reboot, Disney with its big movies and Nickelodeon doing (a great job, admittedly!) with their Rocko, Zim, and Arnold movies. It's working out fine, but it's a pretty big indicator that there are no new ideas - or rather, new ideas are being snuffed out in favor of bad PowerPuff Girls reboots (Cartoon Network not doing so hot, SU is what saved it!)

this is probably not well written I kept backtracking and adding other stuff pff I hope it's coherent ;; ENJOY

[airikki]

controversial opinion: atla is not perfect and most certainly has it flaws and the reason why millennials criticize modern kid-oriented media by comparing it to atla is cuz theyre blinded by nostalgia and think their media is superior to that of gen z kids

No TV show, no movie, is ever perfect. A perfect piece of media does not exist. You may see posts or memes about how Avatar: The Last Airbender is perfect, but they’re all clearly jokes. Because not one TV show is perfect. ATLA certainly has flaws. There are some things that could have been better, sure, and not all fans agree the same on which aspects were good, or bad or unnecessary. 

Moving on. I’m not sure who you follow on here, but I personally have not seen millennials (or a trend of them) criticising kid-orientated media, or comparing it to ATLA in a negative light. Most millennials (or early Gen Z - us 22ish-18ish year olds) don’t use ATLA as the benchmark, but as the springboard. ATLA helped kid-orientated media become what it is today. It was a serialised animated show, aired on nickelodeon, aimed at kids, and it had a continual storyline, amazing animation, and themes not many shows were presenting to kids in the mid 2000s. 

It showed networks what kid-orientated animation could be, and inspired a generation of artists to go on and follow in their wake. Again, I don’t know who you follow, but many people I follow celebrate the animation of today - even if its target audience is kids. (Adventure Time, Gravity falls, Steven Universe, The Dragon Prince, Voltron…the list goes on). 

Not all kids animated shows are going to be loved by older generations, or appeal to them, and they shouldn’t. There was certainly many ‘eh’ cartoons I watched alongside ATLA when I was younger, that I have a nostalgia for but wouldn’t sit down and re-watch every year. Movies with Mikey did an amazing video called ‘Lessons Animation Taught Us’, and it looks at how nostalgia can alter how we perceive the media from our childhood, but also how it can have taught us important lessons or values that we did not appreciate when we first watched it. 

Were I to do a video like that, looking at ATLA, I think it would be the piece of media that taught me a lot without me evening realising. (It explores genocide, abuse, sexism, ableism, the effects of war, the importance of balance in your life and the wider world, respecting other people’s views…the list goes on… maybe you don’t agree with the portrayal of it, but it is there). I didn’t appreciate these when I was a kid, I just watched episodes (and not all of them) and had a fun ride. 

I totally understand how people can be possessive of the media they grew up with, and the often toxic environment that is adults who are in fandoms for kid-orientated shows. Maybe unfollow anyone who is like that, but ATLA, for me, is not something that is only good due to nostalgia. I cannot separate the nostalgia from the show, but I can look at it objectively for a bit, and see that it stands on its own just fine. 

TL:DR - you can have the opinion that atla is overrated, and maybe that’s fair, but I don’t think atla only has merit on the basis of nostalgia. I’m sorry if you’ve been unfortunate to see people criticise one media only to praise another, but there are many of us who don’t see atla as superior, just one of the many animated shows out there to enjoy.   

[morelovelyandmoretemperate]

All from A to Z :)

Oh my Lanta. Really? I mean, I’ll do it, but wowza. Thank you, anon. :D

A - Ships that you currently like a lot. (They don’t have to be OTPs because not everyone has OTPs.) Friendships, pairings, threesomes, etc. are allowed.

I’m not honestly a huge shipper. I prefer bromance to romance... if I HAD to pick a ship or two? Demitri/Anastasia from “Anastasia”, and Mr. Darcy/Elizabeth Bennet from “Pride and Prejudice”. Always get me every time.

B - A pairing–platonic, romantic or sexual–that you initially didn’t consider, but someone changed your mind.

Mmm... Spirk (Star Trek) and McKirk (Star Trek). Damnit, I didn’t want to get sucked into this hell hole, but here I am.

C - A ship you have never liked and probably never will.

Sherlock/Anyone. I just don’t see romantic relationships there. I mean I can see how people get the Johnlock thing going, but honestly... I don’t ship him with anyone. Again, bromance before romance for this one.

D - A pairing you wish you liked but just can’t.

Dean Winchester/Lisa (Supernatural). But that might be because that storyline was pretty weak.

E - Have you added anything cracky/hilarious to your fandom? If so, what?

Some of you may well remember that there is a little known one-shot lurking out there inspired by @faragonart‘s Hiccup in Aperture Science drawings from... Jeez, like a year and a half ago? Not sure. But it’s out there. It’s cracky as hell.

F - What’s the longest you’ve ever been in a fandom?

Been in the Teen Titans fandom for... jeez uh... 13 years? Harry Potter is closely behind at 12.

G - Have you ever had an OTP? If so, do you remember your first one? Who was in it?

Again, not super shippy. When I was a wee tot I adored Robin/Starfire on Teen Titans, but the older I got the more I was like “I just don’t see it.” I do love me some Harry/Ginny (Harry Potter).

H - What is your favorite source text for fandom stuff (e.g., TV shows, movies, books, anime, Western animation, etc.)?

Usually tv shows. Almost always. Sometimes movies. Rarely books.

I - Has Tumblr caused you to stop liking any fandoms, if so, which and why?

Tumblr has turned me off of so many fandoms before I ever even saw the show, because I was sick of it before I ever got a chance to enjoy it, including but not limited to: Steven Universe, Gravity Falls, Voltron, Troll Hunters, Hannibal, etc.

J - Name a fandom you didn’t think about until you saw it all over Tumblr. (You don’t have to care about it or follow it; it just has to be something that Tumblr made you aware of.)

Supernatural. Honestly had no idea what it even was before I saw it on here, and then of course I got obsessed.

K - What character has your favorite development arc/the best development arc?

Ooohhh. Sherlock is one of my faves, just watching him become more.. human, is great. Jesse Pinkman and Walter White (Breaking Bad)... there are so MANY.

L - Say something genuinely nice about a character who isn’t one of your faves. (Characters you’re neutral about are fair game, as are characters you merely dislike. Characters that you absolutely loathe with the fire of ten thousand suns are exempt, as there is no point in giving yourself an aneurysm over a character that you hate.)

John Winchester has a pleasant sounding voice when he isn’t screaming at his children? Does that count?

M - Name a character that you’d like to have for a friend.

Lorelai Gilmore (Gilmore Girls). I want to be her.

N - Name three things you wish you saw more or in your main fandom (or a fandom of choice).

Jesse Pinkman character analysis and canon compliant Harry Potter learning to deal with his upbringing.

O - Choose a song at random. Which ship or character does it remind you of?

“Reflecting Light” by Sam Phillips- Luke/Lorelai (Gilmore Girls)

P - Invent a random AU for any fandom (we always need more ideas).

I actually developed a relatively in depth baby bots AU for Portal in one of @faragonart‘s streams. The idea was more or less that in an effort to tame Glad0s, they scientists desperately tried to bring the human part of her (whatever was left of Caroline) back into control by appealing to her maternal instinct with android baby bots, creating first Virgil (who was too soft spoken and non-assertive, and brushed aside before being reassigned to maintenance) then Wheatley (who was too curious and outgoing, and caused her to become increasingly hostile against him to the point that his memory of it was wiped, and he was left with nothing more than an inherent fear of her), and finally having no choice but to bring in Caroline’s actual daughter: Chel. If anyone wants more than that, I have it all written down somewhere and I’ll hunt it down and share.

Q - A fandom you’ve abandoned and why.

Ooooh. LOST. Too weird, my dudes. Far too weird. And Grey’s Anatomy.

R - Which friendship/platonic relationship is your favorite in fandom?

Merlin/Arthur, Sherlock/John, Harry/Hermione, this is a looong list.

S - Show us an example of your personal headcanon (prompts optional but encouraged)

Hmm... alright, so @orhowfar and I were watching Anastasia a few weeks back and I went dark af and just proclaimed that I think Dimitri was abused by the staff of the palace. He very clearly gets manhandled rather aggressively on a fairly frequent basis, and his self esteem is virtually nothing. So we came up with this whole big thing where his favorite of the nobility was always Vlad, who had kind eyes and a big belly and would sneak him sweets when he assisted, and after helping the princess escape and being knocked unconscious (by a blow to the head from a gun which 100% broke his nose btw have you ever noticed?) He finds himself with nowhere to go. He runs into Vlad and there’s a moment of pure panic because Vlad knows how bad things are right then, but they both just nod, and wind up taking care of each other. Vlad becomes something of a father figure to Dimitri. He notices pretty early on that Dimitri doesn’t like contact unless he’s initiated it, something that carries over into adulthood, despite his best efforts, but it does get better. Vlad just makes sure to let Dimitri come to him as often as possible instead of reaching out first. Etc. etc. it was a LONG thing.

T - Do you have any hard and fast headcanons that you will die defending?

Hiccup’s hair looks the way it does because he won’t sit still for a haircut- he’s always off doing something or other- so his father will just randomly grab a handful of his hair and slice through it with his knife to keep it manageable. Hiccup barely notices until after Stoick’s death when his hair is suddenly longer than it’s been in years and then he remembers and ouch.

U - Three favorite characters from three different fandoms, and why they’re your favorites.

Merlin- self sacrificing, intelligent, lovable little dork with immense power.

Dean Winchester- self sacrificing, intelligent, lovable little dork with virtually no self esteem or self preservation skills.

Jesse Pinkman- self sacrificing, intelligent, lovable little dork with virtually no self esteem or self preservation skills who is far too broken and has seen far too much but is desperate for love.

V - Which character do you relate to most?

It varies... I related to Jesse Pinkman more than I probably should have but... given current circumstances.. yeah. I understand Lorelai Gilmore on a spiritual level as well.

W - A trope which you are virtually certain to hate in any fandom.

“Bad guy is reformed and becomes besties with the gang”. Get away from meeeeeeeee.

X - A trope which you are almost certain to love in any fandom.

One character slowly humanizes another through little acts of affection and teaching and both learn from the other and become best friends in the process.

Y - What are your secondhand fandoms (i.e., fandoms you aren’t in personally but are tangentially familiar with because your friends/people on your dash are in them)?

Hmmm... does The Office count? I see a lot of The Office second hand.

Z - Just ramble about something fan-related, go go go! (Prompts optional but encouraged.)

They have never once cast a decent Dick Grayson (Batman) and let me tell you why because when a child is of Romani descent they are not some little pale white boy with dark hair. They have a very specific look and I have yet to see it. Not to mention they never pick the right body type. Dick is an acrobat first and foremost; he just learned to adapt that into a fighting style. He would not be some top heavy bulky af ripped dude with giant shoulders and biceps and thighs as wide as a tire, he’d be lean and wiry and small. He needs to be fast, be able to get and keep himself airborne, and fold into all sorts of weird shapes (the kid is basically a damn contortionist). He’s strong as hell, but it’s not just big ass muscles, it’s... *deep breath* he’s not the body type they keep casting. Furthermore, that kid is definitely his own special brand of damaged and I get very tired of seeing the “so sarcastic and carefree” attitude given to him in movies and tv shows, but I also can’t stand the other extreme: the cold, clinical, calculating, trying to be Batman nonsense. That’s not who he is. He’s smart and capable, and certainly can be serious, he’s been playing a part in public for most of his life, just as Bruce does, but he’s also very careful not to become what Bruce has... I could go on about this for a long time... @cinemamind, help me? 

Thanks for the request, anon, sorry this is SO long...