#look there are lots of things to criticize about asoiaf but i hate this 'it's too bleak and cynical' point tbh

[petr1kov]

just got recommended a video with a decent amount of views analyzing why asoiaf is 'unfinishable' and a failure because it got lost in it's own postmodern deconstructions of fantasy tropes. looked into the guy's channel and he's clearly just a verbose conservative (who nevertheless still uses wokeism as a term unironically) and is watched primarily by trump supporters. people will just watch anything on the internet these days

[tessarionbestgirl]

Since I saw your post about daemon’s redemption: Have to say it’s really goddamn telling that Daemyra is the most popular ship involving daemon while nettles is the least popular despite being his arguably only canonical love interest. Like yes Daemon x nettles is problematic though what ship in asoiaf isn’t and Nettles is who daemon arguably sacrifices everything for in order for her to escape unharmed plus nettles confronts all of daemons toxic ideals and forces him to change. I swear if nettles wasn’t a black woman and was white like rhaenyra people wedlock to daemon x nettles in a heart beat but because nettles was black people need to show faux concern and say “what about rhaenyra” you know the woman who tried to hate crime nettles

Oh yeah is funny because while I do ship Alys and Daemon on the show, I saw some D*emyra already being more open about them being a thing then Nettles and Daemon.

I even remember people making threads, how, makes no sense Daemon fall for Nettles because she has no Valyrian characteristics. What you know is exactly the point of why Martin wrote he falling in love for Nettles, despite the problematic aspects. It is the whole Brienne and Jaime arc. Brienne is not even close to a classic knight or the classic beauty of woman but she honorable and beautiful in her way as Nettles despite probably not having any Valyrian blood on her she still able to do something no one was, taming a big wild dragon while also not being westorosi beauty standard. All this affect Jaime/Daemon to question their views and change to better. ( And arguably Brienne and Jaime are way more popular than Nettles and Daemon).

Of course this is lost when Ryan adapted the Valaryons to be black, so in this sense I understand why Ryan wouldn't want to adapt the romance between them because part of what make it compelling is lost. Whatever her character shouldn't get repurpose to other characters, and had her importance diminished in the process, because if you saw the leaks, Sheepstealer is small and ugly, and not ugly in the way Vaghar or Vermithor are ugly. The dragon is ugly that stand out as weak and have no appeal even compared to other dragons and it looks even generic design.

Imagine if Game of thrones they have repurpose Brienne to Pod and made him a shitty swordsman and Jaime gave him a random sword. Meanwhile instead of Jaime learning important lessons about himself, the world and being a important step to disconnect from the toxic relationship with Cersei, he had learned to embrace even more hid worse threats and all he needs was to be loyal to Cersei.

The narrative in the book on purpose says "Jaime throwing a kid from the window for love is not right." While the show justifies Daemon killing for Rhaenyra, doing b&c and so on. You know how insane this is?! The fandom back in the time would go crazy over this. Meanwhile hotd fandom, specially tb, justifies it and even some like it.

And he done that for what? Fanservice? Because is that how it feels. This season feels in a lot of sense filler and response for Twitter fans. Either to criticize, to justify it self or to endorse the worse opinions there.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

TG stans loves to mock the targaryen blood with babies that are born looking like dragons just like visenya for example when they have jaehaerys with 6 fingers (which in the book the green are ashamed of that btw) and from jaehaera's sigil in the opening of the series it is also a hand with six fingers just like his brother's lol I don't know if they just have the same sigil because they are twins but it would be funny if the girl had the same problem as her brother after all... they are twins LOL

TG stans are majority Targaryen antis. They want to distance their favs from the rest of the Targaryens so their hypocrisy is less obvious. So they'll write posts calling the blacks incestuous dragonspawn while blatantly ignoring that the greens are every bit as incestuous.

Aegon and Helaena are siblings, like you can't get more incestuous than that. Daemyra's kids actually have less genetically similar parents than Jaehaerys, Jaehaera, and Maelor. Rhaenyra's parents were first cousins, something not acknowledged as incest by Westeros.

Then there's the Helaemond shippers who criticize the Velaryons' legitimacy while theorizing that Helaena's kids are Aemond's. How exactly is Jace succeeding Rhaenyra wrong but Jaehaera succeeding Aegon is good? How is Jaehaera a more legitimate heir than Aegon III (who is trueborn)? These people are still in the same camp as other TG stans who hate the blacks for incest. They ship a brother and sister, wtf is happening in their brains?

Joffrey Baratheon and his siblings are talked about more respectfully than Rhaenyra and her children. It's so disgusting how this woman and her children are being called subhuman by these hypocrites.

The TG stans hate House Targaryen (most of them anyway), it takes a lot of mental gymnastics to justify liking the greens. It's insane seeing them do that, but it's also so fucking frustrating. They don't seem to realize that TG are the most cartoonishly evil Targaryens in ASOIAF who are all guilty of the things they hate the house for.

It shows the true reason they support the greens. It's not about how "cool" they are, because there's a lot of Targaryens who are "cool" in the same way but are still hated. It's not because they're interesting villains, because they bend over backwards defending them. It's not about hating feudalism or caring about the smallfolk, the greens committed worse atrocities than the blacks and were hated by the smallfolk more. It's not about being morally against incest (in a fictional world for some reason), because they love the incest of their favs. It's about misogyny, it's about not wanting a woman to inherit the throne or have agency in her story.

[leulah]

Gender Roles in the ASOIAF Fandom

There is a lot of discourse going around about female roles and femininity in ASOIAF and how certain characters are less than for fitting into traditional ideas about gender roles in the series. And while there are so many things fucked about this discussion of "who is the better victim of misogyny", I also think a lot of people are missing the point entirely.

I see a lot of accounts saying that it is backwards or "tradwife" to defend certain female characters because they quote "uphold the patriarchy", and defending them is regressive because it is what is viewed as the expectation and standard in the real world for real women- which is true it is the expectation. But it is a very black and white view on a very complex problem to just write off all "soft female" characters as misogynistic because they fit into this real world standard. This discussion runs a lot deeper than "feminine good/masculine bad", because at the end of the day female roles are still viewed as being lower than male roles in society. In the eyes of the patriarchy being masculine is always better because it's about power and control, and in order to have this power women and femininity have to be viewed as beneath them. You can see this when men get emasculated because their partner makes more money than them, or they make fun of girly things- these gender roles are less about "promoting femininity" than it is about promoting a power dynamic.

That is why are characters who are more masculine and don't fall into these expectations of gender roles like Dany or Arya, are generally viewed better in the larger fandom space than those that do. It is because being masculine is always viewed as being better than being feminine, and in a fictional world where these women in power pose no actual threat to real men's masculinity they are viewed as being stronger and better people. Being masculine makes these women more worthy of respect in the eyes of the fandom. This is also similar to how when discussing history people often say: "Look women were also warriors! They're important too," as if a woman's worth only comes from her proximity to masculinity, and the women who were just mothers and wives and weavers are unworthy of our admiration and respect. Even though it is true that real society promotes and expects women to fit into a traditional female role, being masculine is still viewed as superior to being feminine.

By contrast, female characters in ASOIAF like Catelyn and Sansa who do not fall into this warrior women archetype are often berated and hated by the fandom. On one side, because they are viewed as weak and by being traditionally feminine they are seen as "upholding the patriarchy" in Westeros- disregarding the fact they are victims of it as well. But on the other hand, a lot of the complaints about Cat and Sansa come from men who feel as though they threaten men's power in the series. A common complaint about Catelyn is that she undermined and questioned Robb's power- because how dare she have a say in what happens to her family. Sansa the eleven year old is often criticized for "betraying Ned" by going to Cersei and writing the letter, with people often saying its her fault for the war and not the various adults and men in power. If a male character like Jon or Ned questions or goes against those in power it is seen as necessary and strategic, but when a female character takes any action or autonomy in their own narrative, it is viewed as a threat.

And of course there is more nuance to this, because not everyone does like the characters who break out of gender expectations, and these women in power are still viewed as a threat when their story intertwines with men. Daenerys gets respect insofar as she is not a threat to other main male characters, but the second she stands in the way of Jon's supposed claim or being Azor Ahai, she is discarded by the fandom and must be sacrificed as "the Nissa Nissa for Jon's heroic storyline". These women in masculine roles are celebrated in the fandom space, but when they too begin to question male authority their support crumbles under the same misogyny the feminine characters face.

There are many reasons why someone would prefer the female characters that fight and break out of gender roles over ones that are more traditional, but if your reaction to femininity is one of weakness and worthlessness I think you need to do some self reflection on your relationship to women. Yes, the "let women be soft" argument is reductive due to irl expectations, but that doesn't make feminine women deserving of your hate and harassment. Fiction is not reality, and people don't have the same expectations and reactions between them, and trying to boil down a complex discussion on power dynamics and gender roles in the series to "feminine bad" is reductive and not at all the message. Both sets of women deserve respect and both suffer under the rules and traditions in their world, but you have to remember there is no "better victim". There is no winner under the patriarchy.

[jackoshadows]

Why do you think there is so much animosity between Sansa fans and Dany fans? I can understand how conflict comes up between Sansa fans and Arya fans given the conflict between the characters but I can’t figure out what the issue is with Dany fans vs Sansa fans. It can’t JUST be because of shipping, right? I’m a big fan of Dany, Arya, and Jon, but I still do like (canon) Sansa as a character and honestly see a lot of similarities between her and Dany. Their stories have definite parallels and anti parallels and I don’t really know why I don’t see anyone else talk about it. Every time I try to talk to a Sansa blog or a fellow Dany blog about it, I never hear back. What gives??

I don't like the both siding in this ask. Sansa fans keep spewing hateful nonsense, farcical theories and made up headcanons in the form of 'intellectual' discourse in the Dany/Arya/Jon tags and then when book fans of those characters respond, the so called 'neutral' bnfs pretend both sides are to blame.

All this explained very clearly here.

And while I personally feel that Dany and Sansa have very little in common as characters, there's a lot of fandom metas/essays/gifsets and fanarts paralleling these two as fandom faves. You should be able to find them on many of the character blogs if you are interested in that sort of thing.

IMO, Daenerys is clearly written as a tier I main character. She drives her story more than any other character in the series as the sole representative of her house and considering how isolated she is from every other POV character. The story in her POV is about her.

If we are looking at parallels, then it's Daenerys and Arya who have a lot of commonality in their way of thinking, their concern for the little guy, in their ideas of justice and dispensing that justice, right and wrong, their toughing it out on their way to the top, their proactive nature in getting things done, to be in charge, their love of nature etc.

With respect to the increase in toxicity from the Sansa fandom post show, then yes, that's because of shipping and Jonsa. A lot of the hate that the character of Daenerys gets is from Sansa fans - especially on Tumblr - because of her foreshadowed future relationship with Jon Snow and they want fanon, self-insert Sansa to have Dany's plot importance and story in the books. It's different on asoiaf sites like Reddit and Westeros.org - the majority of Dany hate on there is from Stannis/Jon Snow fans who are not big fans of a female character being the prophesied chosen one/top dog of the series.

And I point to shipping being the big reason because of my personal fandom experience on this site. This is me going down memory lane but I remember around 2015/16, I wrote these angry, frustrated posts calling out the TV show for taking Jon's book plot and writing that for show Sansa and Sansa's actions in the Battle of the Bastards in season 6. At that time a lot of Dany fans were also big Sansa fans and attacked me for being a 'misogynistic dudebro'. I am not naming names - shit's in the past - but I used to get blocked and get hateful inbox messages for criticizing show Sansa's actions.

During season 6 there were so many posts about Jon Snow being an useless idiot who deserved to die, Sansa was right to not tell him because he's a moron, Sansa's the politician/general who knows best, she deserved to be queen, Jon's the worst for stealing Sansa's birthright else Sansa and Dany would have ruled as best queens of westeros etc. - all from Daenerys fans!!

This was some kind of superficial notion of girl power with Sansa and Dany girlbossing around Westeros, bow down before these Queens sort of thing and fuck the actual book story. Arya was never included in these conversations because she did not wear dresses and Maisie Williams was not conventionally beautiful like Emilia Clarke and Sophie Turner and therefore did not fit into these Girlboss headcanons.

And then before season 7 was when we got the leaked spoilers of Jonerys meeting at Dragonstone. And this was when the full toxicity of the Jonsa shippers was unleashed. This was when we got 'Political!Jon' and all sorts of vile hate for Daenerys and more and more Dany fans started to react to that hate from the Sansa fandom.

Fandom always, always influences our likes and dislikes of characters (This is why I stay away from some fandoms - I don't want to end up hating characters) And this is what happened here. The Sansa/Jonsa fandom was so vile that a lot of Dany fans on tumblr stopped stanning for Sansa.

Fast forward to 2019 and the same Dany stans - again, not naming names but the very same Dany stans - who attacked me for being a sexist, male dude for critiquing show Sansa in season 6, started critiquing show Sansa when Dany got the same treatment that Jon, Arya and Bran got before her with the show tearing down these characters to prop up Sansa. Suddenly it was no longer misogynistic to call out how these characters were being torn down in order to prop up Sansa when they share scenes with her 😂😂😂.

That’s why I don’t hold much stock in words like ‘misogyny’ and ‘sexist’ randomly thrown around without context by the stans of female characters to attack people for critiquing said female character. I have been at the receiving end of this for years from the Jonsa fandom because I call out their utter nonsense.

The sexism and misogyny occurs when a female character is criticized for doing the same thing a male character is praised for - for ex. Daenerys gets a lot of this because she has parallel arcs with Jon Snow and very often she gets attacked for doing the same things that Jon is praised for. Even the show did this - Dany getting unfair flack for executing traitors when Jon Snow and the North do it all the time. The sexism is in how Arya gets attacked as being ‘male-coded’ because she’s not the right kind of girl. The sexism is in the slut shaming and commentary about how Daenerys is not the right kind of rape victim. The sexism is in the popular theories like political!Jon - wherein Jon Snow turns into LF 2.0 and sexually manipulates and seduces a rape victim.

Sexism is not simply liking a male character or critiquing a female character - there needs to be context. One does not simply throw around these heavy words simply to attack other bloggers to win fandom points. The word then loses it’s meaning.

So yeah, I ended up going on a tangent about my fandom experiences when the show was running. I do think a lot of the beef and toxicity in this fandom comes from shipping and Sansa fans wanting her to be something she is not. They want her to be a tier I main character with the story revolving around her love life as she Disney princess rules the North with sewing and dancing. And this leads to them diminishing the actual main characters and taking away from main characters to give to her. Naturally fans of the main character are going to push back against this.

And Sansa is a classist, sexist character and so her fans espouse classist, sexist viewpoints to justify her actions. Their love for all things 'traditional' and sticking to the status quo - 'Jon being KITN would be boring, he should stay a bastard, Arya being lady of WF is not right as she does not want to wear dresses, Dany will be mad like her father she can't escape her genes, Tyrion is doomed' etc. is based on Sansa being a traditional, pro-status quo character. Hence why there is so much clashing of ideas and discourse happening in the fandom.

So yeah. Honestly, I am just tired of seeing all these posts bothsiding fandom drama and making it seem like all the stans are equally responsible when the majority of fandom toxicity is started by stans of one character - Sansa - with the result being fans of other characters pushing back against their nonsense.

[horizon-verizon]

I just saw a post that argued that Rhaenys was passive for not starting a rebellion to remain heir (she never was) and that it was disgusting that she would agree to marry her granddaughters.(not her decision) with dirty bastards (🙄) instead of her (drumroll) asking Alicent for help (lol) so Baela and Rhaena would have their birthright. I know that you have already argued most of this in other posts but what made me laugh and come to tell you about it was the ending because: They should also marry one of them to a green PRINCE (Let's be honest it's Aemond because it's always Aemond) because the girls deserved a good match.

A I could almost accept this kind of opinion if they had enough self-awareness to realize that they don't care about Baela and Rhaena, right?. They're just looking to get their favorite boy a castle and Rhaenyra's allies... The same thing they are criticizing her for! Just like they say Rhaenys should have taken the throne by force but they get upset because Rhaenyra didn't turn around and let them usurp her without making a fuss.

*EDITED POST* 10/25/23

Rant coming up.

So one moment they are saying Rhaenyra should have backed off and just let Aegon take her seat because:

"he's already crowned"

"the law is the law"/"girls can't rule, it's custom"

sometimes even "it's for the good of the realm and its 'peace'" (referring to HotD's choice to emphasize the nobles/royals' concern for the smallfolk when no one really cared all that much in the canon)...

Then they now say that Rhaenys should have rebelled and caused violence for smallfolk as well as other lords, she should have fought for her "rights" on the principle of them being her right by being the last heir's only and eldest child, and she should have rejected Viserys' ascension after he's been voted in by a majority by Jaehaerys' moves? The hypocrisy is astounding, honestly.

Not only that, Rhaenys' own son Laenor--a boy--was passed over on account of Laenor coming from the female "line", or being connected to the royal family through a woman, his mother. The lords at the GC of 101 specifically marked this as a reason against her. We really cannot make 1-1 comparisons between Rhaenyra and Rhaenys' loss of power or broken access to the throne as if they had the same specific opportunities & blocks; Rhaenys was more like an heir presumptive to Rhaenyra's actually being an heir apparent. (Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir officially while Rhaenys was a person who had a claim by being the eldest of the last heir apparent and was Jaehaerys I's eldest living grandchild. An heir presumptive is: "one whose right may be defeated by the birth of a nearer heir".) What they shared is that their access to those things was seen as deserving less than that of a man and there were those who actively blocked their ability to become an uncontested ruler in their own right.

Again, that classist/bastardphobia coming out from them and them wanting every character in ASoIaF to follow suit. Not every character is going to be as hung up or pretentious about bastards the old conservative "family values" way, and why? It's both politically inconvenient at times AND it's a whole lot of energy for something that really had no real effect on Rhaenyra or the boys (at least largely) except for the greens taking advantage when they, like other lords who continued to fight for Rhaenyra even after her death, could have chosen to step aside but didn't because they wanted to take that power. Which removes any real moral high ground on their part--their motivation for hating these boys is not pure. I need these people to be able to separate social conditioning & ideology from real strategy, please, just for a few seconds! (POST #2 with a summarization of the previous multi-link link). Being born out of wedlock doesn't make you an icky-sticky monster with the capability of infecting people with "degradation" or "lowering" one's innate "quality" as a human being--there's no moral nor political reason to think that Baela is marrying "wrong" or "down". I must also quickly mention the rumors around Orys Baratheon and confirmed bastards like Jon Snow (GoT/ASoIaF's male darling, as these people tend to conveniently forget), Brynden Rivers/Bloodraven, and Benedict Rivers-turned-Justman who ruled over the Riverlands and established one of the most peaceful dynasties in Riverland history, and a real life bastard who came to be the first Norman king of "England" and is the inspiration for people like Benedict Rivers and Aegon I. These people are strong, capable, trustworthy, and most of the list are loyal to those they followed--qualities that Westerosi Faith says are not natural in bastards...the Faith and society claims the opposite. Already and since day one, GRRM has been telling us not to so flagrantly deny bastards' humanity or to subscribe to them Westerosi stigmas, and here goes people doing exactly that as if they themselves were Westerosi. Which really just shows how they have been salivating for a chance to show their true selves and prejudices, they just needed claimed ignorance or a text they think everyone is paying more attention to where bastards' presence was a stickier point in the specific story.

And why the hell would Alicent--show or book--go out of her way (fav phrase tonight) to help out Rhaenys without any strings?

This is the same woman who in the show imprisons Rhaenys to "slow down" Rhaenyra and is basically trying to force Rhaenys on her side as if that would realistically hold any appeal in lieu of what the show tells us are Rhaenys' interests, which is to stay as far away from this war or supporting either side as much as possible.

Show!Rhaenys told Rhaenyra, her own kin, no....why should she help out Alicent, who is least going to help her out? Alicent's kids are not engaged to Rhaenyra's. Alicent's kids are actually competitors or Alicent wants to become the next royals over Baela, who could have been Queen Consort like Alicent if the green kept to herself.

Alicent is the one who, prodded by Otto, used Rhaenya's husband Vaemond for her own plans to dethrone Luke and Rhaenyra (long-run) and the plan encourages Vaemond's ambitions to his death (yes it's Vaemond's fault that he died, but this maneuvering with people way to close to Rhaenys and her grandkids cannot feel hunky dory to someone in Rhaenys' position! The greens went after a Velaryon, not Rhaenyra).

People seem to also forget that Alicent was trying to get Vaemond to replace Corlys, which also pushes Baela and Rhaena away from what that person you're telling me about is their "right"....which it isn't. Like I mentioned before, Rhaenys nor Corlys in the book and by ASoIaF Westerosi culture/society does not have parental rights over Baela and Rhaena bc they are Targaryens, Daemon is their living father, and in both the show and books Corlys...not Rhaenys...is the real head of that house and never wanted a girl as his heir. Before anyone can name an outsider as their heir, they need to go through their living father/parents. Also, fosterage does not work in the show as the showrunner/writers did for Baela being the ward for the Velaryons for all these reasons. Just no. If these people want to enjoy the show and its weird fan-ficcy bad AUness, fine, but the dynamics do not make sense for the kind of world they are all in. (It's not even that AU fanfic adaptations are inherently bad and useless, I love the show adaptation of Interview with a Vampire...I just want to make it clear that HotD does not align with real Westeros and some things people claim about the show that exist in the book thematically or emotionally cannot be said to be true of the original story).

It was Alicent who tried to get Lucerys' eye cut out after he and his brother were trying to help out their aggrieved cousin/Rhaenys' granddaughter Rhaena..and both her and Baela were nearly beaten by the son Alicent couldn't teach properly. and yes, rhaenys, even in the show, does care for Luke's well-being. In the book, there is a little indication that she doesn't even seem to be willing to NOT see him as her own grandchild.

If Rhaenys, in the show, is as "grandchild-first" as she's supposed to be, how could she ever trust the word of Alicent/greens by their actions? Unless she's forced to, and still, why would she freely approach Alicent and think Alicent would "fight" for Driftmark for her grandkids?! Therefore, Rhaenys, from the books who truly followed Rhaenyra/supported Rhaenyra, has no reason to trust a word of a green over any on Rhaenyra's side. Any marriage to her sons would be more functionally holding Rhaenys, Baela, and Rhaena hostage!

*I didn't realize until it was too late that you already mentioned how hypocritical Rhaenys being a rebel was...*

[chrkrose]

What aspects of Brienne’s character (or any other character in ASOIAF) resonates with you the most?

There are so many characters that speak to me on some level, but I go with three:

Brienne

Oh man… she’s just my favorite in every single capacity you can imagine. I know George deserves a lot of criticism, but when he gets right, he gets it. I think Brienne is the result of when you actually look at female characters as people and decides to explore what it means to be a woman, and how complex it is . The way she questions not only what it means to be feminine, but what it is to want those things, to want things you are shamed for because they are “girly” or considered weakness. Of course Brienne wanting to achieve things that are deemed unfit for women is already interesting to explore, especially in such context as the one of Westeros, but what resonates with me the most is how he didn’t fall for the stereotype of warrior woman “I’m not like other girls tm feminine stuff suck 🤮 ugh women suck 🤢”, and instead presented us with a girl who wants to be loved and to love, who wants marriage, who wants romance, and is not in any way weak or less because of it. Her strength is in her compassion, in what men and society in general consider as flaws because they are deemed inherently feminine. Someone who is so good while making tons of mistakes and having her own flaws that don’t detract from her goodness. And how she questions what it is to be ugly and why the hell do we care so much about physical appearances like this? And who said that ugly people are less deserving of anything? Who said that beauty is the most valuable trait you need to have to be treated as someone worthy of love and sex and compassion? You see, it is very important to me that Brienne is ugly, because it truly made me rethink a lot of my day to day speech and thoughts when it comes to beauty and how I approach this in real life. To have such a character be desirable and live a romantic arc, probably the best romantic arc he created in the entire story… ugh I love Brienne and what she represents.

Jaime

He has never done anything wrong in his life ever and if he did, he looked really hot while doing so and he’s also funny so I don’t get how people want to hate him for it and condemn him for it 🥰. I love Jaime for many many many things, his entire arc is fascinating, he’s so so complex and has so many layers, I honestly think he’s one of the best written characters of the saga. I also think his sense of humor really makes his chapters a delight to read. To spend entire books hearing about how bad of a guy he was, how he was a villain, tainted, dishonorable, only to have the first line of his chapter being “I’m alive and drunk on sunlight”… George can be many things, but he damn knows how to make you instantly fall in love with a character.

Nettles

I love Nettles because of obvious reasons (the underdog who gets the special dragon, the bad boy and actually survives the war and becomes a legend), she’s right up my alley in terms of arcs I enjoy. Add to that the fact that she is a black woman, and I’m sold. You never, ever, see black women getting the hero journey arc. They are never the special ones, they are never the ones who win. But she was. She is exceptional among several characters who think themselves to be the exception when they are nothing but a bunch of losers with a superiority complex. She is the exception and proves herself with everything going against her. She’s fantastic, and is the type of character that we people of color don’t have growing up, that we don’t see in fantasy stories, and she’s that much more special to me because of it.

[mikasaerens]

I ain’t ever seen anyone reach this hard. This is COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

First of all about casting… Ewan’s mom is a Christian so idk why you put him up there.

Olivia looks like every other white woman out there and she’s not Jewish.

The religion in ASOIAF is criticized but so are the Targaryens for having incestous relationships, and guess who does the worst incest in the show? ALICENT. When she marries Helaena and Aegon. She’s literally WILLINGLY participating in Valyrian tradition, she’s not standing against it.

The Hightowers and the Citadel have no real parallel with Jewish conspiracies, IMO it’s just hard reaching. The Maesters having their own motives isn’t some antisemitic trope. Hightowers are one family not an entire religion and Otto definitely conspired to have his daughter marry into royalty and produce future kings, that’s confirmed not a theory. The Faceless men are also a similar organization but I don’t see this accusation about them. Also the Southern Alliance theory is also similar to this but no one’s calling that antisemitic, same with the Grand Northern Conspiracy or the Grand Tyrell Conspiracy.

Helaena is considered redeemable because her brother is a rapist and her other one is a child murderer. People do not care whether she supports Jace or Rhaenyra, in fact I (who hates TG) was upset that she didn’t seem angry at Daemon in that vision sequence. Comparing Helaena/Jace ship (which I hate) to a Jewish woman marrying a full German is hilarious. It’s Jace and Luke that experience what’s most similar to “racism” in this story. They aren’t even full Targaryens, they’re bastards so who TF is the “full German”

I really have no idea where you’re going with on the sexual thing. Aegon behaves like every typical king in the medieval era. Alicent behaves exactly like any child bride you would except. If anything it’s Daemon and Rhaenyra are portrayed as more sexual and even portrayed as “deviant” (by the people in the story)

Again the alcoholic and drug addiction is a SERIOUS reach. If any character has those addictions does that mean they are now a parallel to Jewish people? No.

Talking about how Jewish men were described as dangerous and how this associates with TG men is WILD LMFAO. Tons of men in ASOIAF are portrayed this way, guess what a lot of men in POWER act like this. Taking the portrayal of a few men in a TV show and acting like that correlates with an entire REAL LIFE group of people is INSANE.

Alicent is quite literally the opposite of an overbearing mother. She dgaf about anything her children be doing. She doesn’t even realize Aegon is a serial rapist for a long time, in fact she’s shocked at the realization that Helaena must be suffering his abuse too.

Apparently a family being complex is an analogy to Jewish families now. Team Black is complex too. Daemon choked out Rhaenyra and abandoned her, Jace and Rhaenyra had a very complex relationship in s2. Corlys and Rhaenyra don’t get along. Corlys and Rhaenys literally believe Rhaenyra murdered their son. Like wtf? Their dynamics are all messy AF too.

Alicent’s children are considered true Targaryens. It’s Rhaenyra’s children that aren’t. It’s actually the shitty TG fandom that pretends Alicent’s kids aren’t Targaryens. Rhaenyra is ALSO described as fat. Jaeherys is NOT the only Targaryen with “disfigurements” and TONS of Targaryens are described to have mental issues.. WTF even are you reaching.

As promised all the antisemitic tropes associated with the Greens in House of the Dragon because I guess when you double down on the divinely ordained Aryan as heroes you need Jewish coded villains. Please note that I am not accusing anyone including Condal or other producers of secretly sympathizing with Nazis or antisemitism if for no other reason that I suspect they are simply too ill informed to realize what their playing with. (for a better understanding about the metaphysical role Jews played in Nazism see Alon Confino's A World Without Jews: The Nazi Imagination from Persecution to Genocide)

Let's start with casting:

And Alicent is the embodiement of the Beautiful Jewess- curly dark reddish hair, and big beautiful eyes ( It's over a year since I read Höss's complaining about how his officers were susceptible to Jewish women and their "beautiful eyes" and I am still not over it.)

Moving on-

1) Alicent and by extension the Greens are portrayed as religious. This religion is implied or certainly interpreted by fans to be oppressive towards the Targaryens (Valeryians) notably by setting rules and thus bringing them to the level of mortals. Hitler considered Christianity to be a Jewish invention that was a “scar” on the German race by imposing a conscience.

2) The Hightowers and the Citadel/maesters are implied in the fandom to be running a conspiracy to bring down the Targaryens. Some fans have them poisoning Viserys and/or responsible for all the Targaryen stillbirths, and dismal maternal and infant mortality rates. The Protocols of Zion are an old debunked many times conspiracy theory about how Jews secretly work to run the world. Jewish doctors were accused of damaging Aryan women. The Doctor’s Plot is actually Soviet where Jewish doctors were accused of poisoning Stalin.

3) Heleana who coincidentally fits the Targaryen aesthetic is considered the only redeemable one so long as she supports Rhaenyra (and marries Jace- who according to Rhaenyra and therefore the show/fans is a Targaryen- and raises her children to be loyal to the true Targs). Nazis would sometimes accept a half Jewish woman if she was married to a full German and had his children whom she raised with no connection to her family/faith (sometime a man but a woman was more likely since they were seen as more passive and therefore less of a threat to the all sacred race)

4) the Greens are portrayed as both overly sexual and sexually repressed. The Nazis were obsessed with sex and variously accused Jews of being sexual predators or of being unnaturally restrained which tied in with (1).

5) Aegon is an alcoholic and Aemond is implied to have an opioid addiction. Jews were associated with drugs especially morphine (for a summary of the Nazis relationship with drugs see Norman Ohler’s Blitzed: Drugs in the Third Reich)

5) The men on the Greens are either dangerous predators or emasculated "simps" or "mama's boys". Jewish men were variously dangerous predators or unmanly men who were dominated by their women.

6) Alicent is either sexually repressed or a slut who sexually entices good Valyrian men to their doom. (1) and (4)

7) Alicent is an overbearing mother. She occasionally seems to overstep her designated feminine boundaries to assert her opinions over men's.

8) the Greens are either too close knit or they betray each other. Höss described Jews as both extremely attached to their families to the point where news of their death had a fatal effect and as eager to betray their families even at no benefit to themselves.

9) Alicent schemes to betray the righteous Valyrian princess and supplant her with her own sons. She is considered redeemable only when she serves Rhaenyra and places her on a pedestal even at the expense of her and her children's well being. This is the basis of many Jewish female characters in literature

10) Alicent's children are never considered to be real Targaryens. In F&B Aegon and Helaena are described as plumper and less striking than most Targaryens, Jaehaerys has extra fingers/ toes and Jaehaera as neurodivergent. Jaehaera dies and is replaced by the perfect Valyrian girl.

I'm open for asks and DMs. For context my MA was set in Nazi Germany and I took several courses on the subject.

[rainhadaenerys]

Daenerys endgame speculation - born to make the world anew

For Daenerys Month 2021 - Day 6: Endgame Speculation

People usually criticize the "break the wheel" quote from the show, and with good reason, since they never explained what that meant, and it was ultimately just added to the show to sound cool and later to vilify show!Dany and her revolutionary beliefs. But there are a few things in the books that make me wonder if Dany could get at least some kind of revolutionary beliefs or desire to make changes in Westeros once she arrives there.

First, let’s look at this quote by Tyrion:

Tyrion did not dispute him. The most insidious thing about bondage was how easy it was to grow accustomed to it. The life of most slaves was not all that different from the life of a serving man at Casterly Rock, it seemed to him. True, some slaveowners and their overseers were brutal and cruel, but the same was true of some Westerosi lords and their stewards and bailiffs. Most of the Yunkai'i treated their chattels decently enough, so long as they did their jobs and caused no trouble … and this old man in his rusted collar, with his fierce loyalty to Lord Wobblecheeks, his owner, was not at all atypical. – Tyrion XI ADWD

Here we have Tyrion talking about how similar the situations are between slavery and the Westerosi feudal system. And it’s not just with Tyrion that we can observe this. We have people being forced into the Night's Watch for minor crimes, and forced to serve for life. We have Arya in Harrenhall. She can’t leave Harrenhall if she wants. She is beaten and has to work tirelessly. Is that all that different from slavery?

And we can see in several other POVs in ASOIAF how little the lives of the smallfolk mean to many lords:

Only that was Winterfell, a world away, and now everything was changed. This was the first time they had supped with the men since arriving in King's Landing. Arya hated it. She hated the sounds of their voices now, the way they laughed, the stories they told. They'd been her friends, she'd felt safe around them, but now she knew that was a lie. They'd let the queen kill Lady, that was horrible enough, but then the Hound found Mycah. Jeyne Poole had told Arya that he'd cut him up in so many pieces that they'd given him back to the butcher in a bag, and at first the poor man had thought it was a pig they'd slaughtered. And no one had raised a voice or drawn a blade or anything, not Harwin who always talked so bold, or Alyn who was going to be a knight, or Jory who was captain of the guard. Not even her father. - Arya II AGOT

In Westeros, kings, queens and lords do as they please with peasants, because it’s within their rights. Because they can. Even Ned, who certainly didn’t approve of this, didn’t raise his voice against this injustice. Because Joffrey was a prince, and Mycah was just a butcher’s boy.

I see a lot of discussion about how, in the grand scheme of things, ASOIAF is about the fight of the living against the dead, and politics don’t matter (though maybe I’m oversimplifying this argument). But I do think that the politics matter. It’s true that the Others represent a threat that is above petty conflicts and strifes for power and wealth. But they also represent something else, as GRRM said:

People say I was influenced by Robert Frost’s poem, and of course I was, I mean... Fire is love, fire is passion, fire is sexual ardor and all of these things. Ice is betrayal, ice is revenge, ice is… you know, that kind of cold inhumanity and all that stuff is being played out in the books.

The cold is inhumanity. It’s not just necessary to rise above petty conflicts and defeat the ice monsters. It’s also necessary to defeat the human monsters. Monsters are not just the Others, but people like Tywin Lannister, Roose Bolton and Walder Frey. And these monsters enable the actions of other human monsters like Gregor Clegane, Ramsey Bolton, Tickler and Polliver. And it’s not enough to have a good lord, because there’s no guarantee that his son will be good as well. The problem is systemic. ASOIAF spends a lot of time exploring how awful Westerosi feudal system is. Given the time spent on this, it would make sense if, at the end of the story, there were political changes in Westeros, something that will give us hope that Westeros is changing for the better, that the cold of inhumanity is starting to be defeated.

But what does Dany has to do with all of this? Well, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that GRRM compares the feudal system to slavery, the very thing that Dany is fighting against. In my opinion, this is a direct link to Dany. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that when Dany sees the situation of the smallfolk of Westeros, she’ll be moved to do something, just like she was moved by the suffering of the slaves. This could be one indication that Dany could survive to enact change.

Another point that makes me believe this is just how similar Dany’s arc is to her ancestor, Aegon the Unlikely. This is what’s said about Egg in TWOIAF:

Though beloved by the smallfolk, King Aegon made many enemies amongst the lords of the realm, whose powers he wished to curtail. He enacted numerous reforms and granted rights and protections to the commons that they had never known before, but each of these measures provoked fierce opposition and sometimes open defiance amongst the lords. The most outspoken of his foes went so far as to denounce Aegon V as a "bloodyhanded tyrant intent on depriving us of our gods-given rights and liberties."

It was well-known that the resistance against him taxed Aegon's patience—especially as the compromises a king must make to rule well often left his greatest hopes receding further and further into the future. As one defiance followed another, His Grace found himself forced to bow to the recalcitrant lords more often than he wished. A student of history and lover of books, Aegon V was oft heard to say that had he only had dragons, as the first Aegon had, he could have remade the realm anew, with peace and prosperity and justice for all. - TWOIAF

To me Egg’s arc seems very similar to Dany’s. She tries to make changes and end slavery, but is forced to compromise for the sake of peace. She starts getting more and more unsatisfied with said peace, because peace meant allowing many injustices to continue: meant accepting that slavery would continue outside Meereen, peace meant giving indemnity to slavers. She sees that she’s completely unable to make her reforms through compromise, and decides for a path of “fire and blood”. Because of this, it’s often said that Dany is going down a “dark path”. But what good is peace if thousands of people will continue to be enslaved, killed, mutilated, raped and treated like property? This arc, in my opinion, is supposed to make Dany reflect on how both war and compromise have good sides and bad sides, how none is ideal. Thanks to her experience, Dany will never be trapped by compromises that force her to give up on her reforms, but I also think she will find a middle ground between compromise and force. I think that in the end, Dany’s experiences with trying to make reforms are what’s necessary to “remaking the realm anew”, as Egg wanted to do but never could.

We also have Queen Alysanne’s wish for her daughter Daenerys to be queen, and later she was in favor of Rhaenys, but neither of them would become queen. At least to me, it doesn't make sense for GRRM to call attention to both of these cases, only to have Dany die and never address the idea of a woman ruling Westeros in the future (I guess a woman could end up ruling one of the regions of Westeros, but I don't think that's the same as a woman ruling all of Westeros and sitting on the Iron Throne, which was what was always emphasized in the books). That could be a change Dany could bring as well, changing the precedent against women.

Lastly, we have Benerro’s words:

Haldon nodded. "Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …" - Tyrion VI ADWD

First, it's interesting to note that the wording here is similar to Aegon V talking about "remaking the realm anew". And while it’s true that this could just refer to Dany’s crusade against slavery, I tend to think that if refers to Daenerys endgame, because her story is all about learning how to rule while trying to change the status quo. ASOIAF constantly brings attention to all these injustices, and all of them seem to be connected to Dany. Tyrion compares the smallfolk to slaves, Egg’s attempts at reforms are very similar to Dany’s story, and Queen Alysanne wanted her daughter Daenerys to inherit. Maybe the bitter part of the ending is that none of these issues will be addressed, and nothing will change, and the sweet part is that humanity survived. But with all of this set up, it would make sense for Dany to survive to remake the world and for these issues to be addressed.

[fedonciadale]

Hi Fedonciadale,

Coming back to the fandom after couple of years, It's so sad to notice that Dany stans still haven't moved on from their 'Targaryen Restoration' and 'Jonerys Baby' theories. Eeeshh!!!

I was thinking about the Overarching theme of this Story... Of course there are many, but what piqued my interest was GRRM's distaste for War. His refusal to give POV chapters for Kings and his constant criticism about his own country's misadventures in Iran, Afghanistan and Vietnam... And also, his constant emphasis on 'What it means to truly Govern a country', rather than wanting to become a King/Queen....

Can we safely assume that ASOIAF is the greatest 'Anti-War' story in Fantasy genre??

Hi there!

It certainly has a lot of criticism of war!

I would say that one of the main themes in regard to this is though that he contrasts the destructive to the constructive. There is Tywin Lannister and his policy of relentlessly stamping on any opposition, just because he can. And then there is Ned's legacy which is a long history of just rule.

The interesting thing is that GRRM does not write this as a clear cut story where the ruling style of the "good people" prevails because it is good. At first, it looks like the Tywin method and the easy shortcut of destruction is winning. Tywin has crushed the resistance against Lannister rule and he had no scruples breaking rules for his goals. Ned, on the other hand, lost his life and his honour.

What GRRM shows us though is that Ned's legacy could be stronger in the long run. We see the North rallying and yearning for the days of Stark rule while all the Lannister children struggle with the hatred that Tywin has sown. Tywin created a piece of the grave and it's going to be repaid to his children with interest. The Reynes and the Castemeres will be avenged....

I think that seeing this unfold is very interesting. The slow rebuilding that lasts and the fast destruction that is effective but short-lived.

I would say that this careful description is very interesting indeed. I'm not sure if it's entirely anti-war. It's anti war of conquest surely. And even the defensive war Jon fights against the Free Folk is full of grief and pain. And if my predictions are right, the conflict with the Others will not be solved by war.

I would say the main theme is that you have to try and if you try you have a better chance at building something, but it's not a given and it might be in vain, but trying is better anyway.

Or in the words of Ned Stark: "But what if we prevail?"

I wouldn't say though, that GRRM is unique in his criticism of war. Good books always have nuances, flawed heroes and question the reasons for waging war even if it is against the big bad evil lord that is so prevalent in fantasy.

I mean, just look at the Hobbit. A battle between the free peoples of Middle-Earth (elves, dwarves and humans) out of greed for Smaug's treasure is only narrowly avoided. Almost there would have been completely senseless bloodshed! The armies only turn around when confronted with another enemy, and it is only then that the battle becomes a "good battle" fought for defensive reasons. And still Tolkien (who had fought in WW I after all) explicitly tells us that Bilbo hated the battle and all that sticks in his mind is that his friend Thorin died.

It's the same in Lord of the Rings. Battles in Lord of the Rings are defensive and thus the characters are "in the right" to fight against Sauron and his armies and yet there is still the idea that fighting as such is not good in itself. The hobbits who are swept into battle fight to save lives not to destroy it. And they feel the horror of war. Faramir says that he would have preferred not to fight. He is well aware that Sauron does not only have orcs but also other men and he knows that they are not inherently evil. Aragorn has pity for the people who are to afraid to fight, and he makes peace with the humans who were in Sauron's army.

And this is why many people who imitated Tolkien failed. They just saw the black and white and failed to notice the nuances.

Just my thoughts obviously! Thanks for the ask!

[esther-dot]

Now that the ending is known (Queen Sansa, King Bran and Dark Dany) how do you think future adaptations of ASOIAF will handle the characterizations on screen? It’s obvious D&D tried to hide or justify Dany for seasons to keep the cash cow going. They knew Sansa was hated and Bran dismissed by the GA so they didn’t bother really developing their stories sufficiently. Now that the cats out of the bag, how will future adaptions handle the story do you think?

Without a written ending, it must be incredibly hard for adapters to know what to do, and even knowing certain things…I still am not sure how Martin plans to get there? I mean, after s8 I was more upset than ever with D&D, but also, more sympathetic? Even fans who believe Bran will be king know there’s a lot that needs to happen between here and there, and I haven’t seen any spec has all the answers. So, I think generally speaking, paving the way for an endgame in which Bran and Sansa are the rulers would require a total tonal shift of the story, and since D&D began it with the intent of focusing on the grimness and sexual violence, by removing the softness from so many of our babies (by re-characterizing Sansa as a meanie), looking back, it shouldn’t be a surprise that the Starks ruling Westeros felt discordant with what a lot of people thought the story was. And of course, for Stark fans, that mis-characterization made what we got dissatisfying.

In the end, they presented Sansa with more focus on the influence of her evil mentor (LF) and failed to truly communicate what it was about her that made her uniquely qualified to usher in a better future. Similarly, they presented Bran in an ominous way too, the three eyed raven rather than a Stark, and I guess that’s because they had no means to connect them to their Stark ancestors, their parents, or even their world as they had so totally rewritten it all. None of those natural threads existed by the end.

I assume that Bran and Sansa  more than anyone else will be dedicated to peace which is why they end up ruling, so we need to see  what peace means and what war means for the nameless characters as well  as our heroes. So, I think the priority is looking at the themes and try to work towards the end by following the anti war message. Martin is critical of kings/would be kings and their unnecessary wars, so Bran must be the answer to this. How do you implicitly work to such an ending? I think you feature the smallfolk as a whole as a character. I don’t mean write in characters who are smallfolk, but feature enough shots of their lives before war breaks out that when it does, we don’t need a character telling us how bad war is to understand that no matter how sympathetic the cause, it’s still a horrible thing. They can simply show us, contrasting before and after.

I’m assuming that Bran becomes king because he would rather give his people peace than rule, and we have to create a world in which it is believable that people are so desperate for peace they choose a child king of their own volition. (Assuming that’s a big reason why he’s chosen???). This isn’t something that takes a ton of time, but if we keep reminding the audience of the people, not just the high lords, but the people who are in need of better leadership, different leadership, that would be helpful. Let’s see glimpses of daily life for the smallfolk in Westeros, for the FF when Jon is with them, for the Dothraki women and children, for the people the Dothraki conquer. This is standard in any movie and GoT did some of these shots too, but it needs to be consistent enough that the criticism of choosing to go to war and the consequences of it are felt. Let the fact that lords calling their banners means normal men leaving their families really weigh on the audience. Let’s realize what it means when the Dothraki overrun other cultures, and what it means when Dany in turn will desecrate their holy places. None of this needs to be verbalized, it can be communicated visually, and I think making this a constant would totally change the audience’s perception of  events/our POV characters. We need to visually undermine the instinctive tendency of the audience to hero worship/admire military might above all.

I guess what I’m saying is, the lens with which we’re viewing these things must be changed in order for the audience to value and be ready for peace too. Of course, you can’t make it unbearable to watch, so, let’s focus on the culture more? We need to see the discrepancy between the life of lords and the smallfolk. We need to see the feasts vs starvation, the opulence vs want to establish the huge distinction in what occupies the lives of nobles vs a regular person’s, so they we really appreciate the people who do care about the well-being of the people vs their own claims. J think deleting the impact of songs and stories on Westeros (and therefore the characters) was a huge mistake, possibly on par with minimizing fantasy elements, because if stories and songs have power to change people’s actions, to sway public opinion in the story (they do in ASOIAF), and one of the leaders of Westeros is specifically skilled in that area and both leaders love stories...I mean, again, we don’t know exactly what Martin will write, but clearly, this will matter, therefore, you have to write these things lovingly.

Songs could actually be a really fun way to communicate things to the audience about the opinion of the smallfolk (something that needs to be included!) and have a song begun by a singer, carried on by a servant, then sung by the smallfolk. That would be a fun way to see information dispersed, rumors spread, legends created. Obviously this isn’t a musical so they need to keep it in check, but songs are a big part of how Martin’s world works, it’s how fact becomes fiction and vice versa, so I think they need to figure out how to work that in. And to contrast what the people are singing/thinking with reality would also set a precedent for someone like Bran to have a reputation of some kind that makes him beloved by the smallfolk who in the end might sing about him in a grandiose way that perplexes the kid. (Headcanon, but it’s cute!) The evolution of a specific song, how the smallfolk view different people, instead of it being stated by a character, but naturally evolving through a season, or even over the course of seasons, that could be a really fun way to communicate things to the audience. They don’t need to include all the songs in the books, but as a  matter of world building, I think this would really change the tone of  the story and how the audience perceives our compassionate characters vs  the ones who are choosing war. Especially if part of the problem when Dany comes is that the people are against her (because she kills Aegon), establishing the importance of how the smallfolk live/view things early on would be essential.

Acknowledging the place songs/stories have in their world helps situate Sansa because if you don’t accept the fact that everyone is operating in some degree in the context of these legends, people view her sincere belief in them as a flaw. It isn’t! Sansa’s place in the story has to be built in-world with the fact that she is an innocent who doesn’t deserve these horrible things that are happening to her, instead of rewriting it to act like a) she is dumb or b) she is a big meanie to all our favs. She was sheltered and innocent, and when in the lion’s den, she managed to navigate it anyway. They need to include the social life, the personal is political idea so that we understand that Sansa has skills here, that she is admired, and start building to her end from the beginning by allowing her goodness and kindness to cheek people instead of acting like her villains aren’t actually villains. It’s her goodness they letters here, not theirs. Marriages matter, the norm of women being used to create alliances, and their suffering as a result needs to be felt, but also, we need to see their power, and Sansa was wielding this subtle power over people very early on in the story. It has to be included. You can’t do justice to Sansa if you eliminate the arts and social issues or how relationships are all-important. Sansa’s knowledge about houses and her kindness are very important because relationships are how you amass and wield power long term hence why marriages are all important.

Conversely, Dark Dany is something they would have to really understand and be dedicated to from the beginning to avoid the mess of GoT. Since it can’t be a surprise, the actress would be given the chance to deliver. Apparently, D&D kept actors in the dark about their character's trajectory and fed them acting directions that made no sense at the moment, so with that option off the table, you could have an actress who embraced the darkness of Dany while still playing her with total sympathy as Lena did for Cersei. If that's the case, her villainous actions (burning Mirri, deciding to go to war in spite of the suffering it causes, her hypocrisy about slavery, the list goes on...) wouldn’t have to be deleted or played off as empowering moments. I think D&D knew Dany was bad news from the beginning, but I don’t think they understood Martin’s criticism of war, or if they did, they knew it wouldn’t play so they went in the opposite direction.

However, I think audiences (even American audiences) are in a different place in their view of war/warmongering/war crimes etc. Glorifying war isn’t necessary to keep an audience, and Dany wouldn’t become a one note character either. Dany in the books is very emotional, at times she is afraid, she’s infatuated with Daario, she can be angry and vicious, she’s brave when she faces Drogon with a whip in her hand...better writers and an actress who is given the chance could give the audience a whole new perception of Dany, one that allows them to see many different facets to her. The goal isn’t to make her less sympathetic (imo), the idea is to allow everything about her to coexist because that’s the challenge to the reader/viewer. Here’s a person who can do (and has done) good things, but they have also done horrible things. No one will need to say that, the narrative itself will implicitly condemn her actions (by showing the rape and slavery and death that are a consequence of and fund her war). If the showrunners don’t whitewash her, we won’t need an unbearably stupid speech by Tyrion to explain it in the end. And, I think the contrast between her corruption and Sansa’s compassion would help viewers understand their trajectories.

Even without knowing how he will write the ending, we know what Martin values, so, a show would be able to pointedly contrast our different leaders from early on. I’m disappointed with how little Martin has given us of Bran since he is to be king, so I think future adapters would need to pick an angle and I assume the idea is that Bran prioritizes the right thing rather than becomes less human. It seems to me that Bran allowing Theon to take Winterfell must be a point of contrast to Dany. Bran chose to give up his home to save the lives of his people, whereas Dany is needlessly marching to war to reclaim a home in which she never even lived, a place she knows she isn’t wanted, a place she knows her family was rightfully ousted from. I think D&D not initially knowing the ending meant they viewed Bran and Sansa as incredibly passive characters, and another adaptation would need to really focus on their agency, the choices they make (Bran turning over Winterfell, Sansa being kind to her enemies), to establish who they are. I think the foils/parallels would be the way to telegraph the why of their endgames.

Keeping Cersei was a way to hide Dark Dany, and allowing Aegon to be in the mix allows for some shades of grey that GoT avoided, so I think this time, they’d lean into the Dance of Dragons 2.0. Give us Aegon. Give us Arianne and Quentyn. Give us Dorne. And, I know this might bother people, but do this from very early on. We need to meet these characters and love them. This has two benefits, 1) GoT fans won’t be familiar with their stories so it will be a lot of new material for people to speculate about and prevent people from feeling too much deja vu, 2) this makes it all way more clear that the idea isn’t that all our favs are going to get together and be besties but that they are all on a collision course. Also, I think king Bran emerging after the destruction of a Dance of Dragons 2.0 situation will likely make a lot more sense, whatever the specific details are. 

The tension of the series would then be twofold. You would have the threat of the Others, but also dread the conflict between our beloveds.It was such a waste trying to convince the audience that Cersei was the big evil that everyone needed to unite and end. And of course, if we aren’t trying to delude the audience into thinking there will be a Targ restoration with Jon and Dany ruling together, Jon can be Jon. The writers could emphasize Jon’s desire to be a Stark and his grief and guilt over the death of Robb, and we know (or maybe we don’t, I guess this is something Martin has to tell the writers) that Jon has a brother...a brother who is coming to conquer Westeros. His wanting to be a Stark makes 1) his sacrifice of not taking Winterfell when Stannis offers it so much more meaningful, 2) the impact of being a Targ still painful even though this time around it isn’t a surprise to the audience, 3) the anxiety of knowing two Targs are coming to Westeros that much more unbearable because Jon will have to have a showdown with a family member. It’s something he can’t escape. Oh, I guess that means they also need to keep mentioning how forbidden kinslaying is so we can feel the oncoming suffering. I think building tension is a much better goal than having a one time surprise.

D&D cut a lot of stuff, and I’m suggesting they add more characters than they had, so a new adaptation would likely not be any more faithful than GoT because it would need to really shrink certain storylines, minimize certain characters, and they may even cut arcs/characters altogether in order to do this because I think they should also include Lady Stoneheart. So, I’m not saying book fans would like this version better, but there will be substantial changes with any adaptation, and I think these kind of things would serve the bigger ideas/the ending better. If we see how wrong it is for the people to suffer while these characters fight for a throne, the audience would realize that these characters that are heroes (in any other story) might not bring salvation, only more suffering. So for our true heroes to be less assuming, less heralded, I think the audience might find that rewarding instead of very confusing.

So much of what happens in the story is based on the pre canon stuff, the conflict between houses, Jon’s horror at being a Targ etc, that I would love for that to unfold visually for us across the seasons. I’d love for them to build up the Martell v Lannister conflict and the Targ v Stark one by situating what happens in canon with what happened before, and I think with not worrying about a surprise ending, they could really make it epic for Aegon to take the Iron Throne and unimaginably tragic when Dany comes in and burns it all to hell. And then of course, the catharsis of seeing Dany + dragons taken out, the long-standing Targ threat finally ended…it would feel so good.

Wow. This got really long, I should have just limited myself to bullet points! But, basically, I think they should take the opportunity to make the most of the things D&D neglected, and really work on a way to make the ending a reward for the audience. I think going for a tonal difference would be important as a less cynical version of the story is mandatory because that is what would accommodate someone with Sansa’s naïveté, and permit the idea of goodness and kindness being a force that matters.

Thank you for the ask!

[attonitos-gloria]

ALSO HI IM BACK so ok so. I read some of your posts and I’ve been thinking about it, and it really does bother me how easily casual ableism finds its way into any discussion of Tyrion as a character with the wider fandom. Especially because it’s disguised as “he’s such a terrible person” meanwhile a lot of these same people will love Jaime, a character who did just as many (if not more) horrible things, but who is easier to forgive and to love because he’s physically beautiful, and described as beautiful over and over again in the text. Jaime is pretty, and dumb (not really but he’s portrayed that way many times) and not very ambitious - all things that make it easier for people to like him, and want him redeemed. Also, because Brienne (who is almost overwhelmingly pure and good) decides he’s worth saving and genuinely likes him, it’s easier for readers to care about him. Their desire to see good things happen to pretty people is affirmed by Brienne being in love with him. (None of this to say people shouldn’t like Jaime - I like Jaime!!! A lot! I just don’t pretend his looks make him worth more than any other character.)

Meanwhile Tyrion is described as ugly, misshapen, deformed, stunted, frightening - by almost every character he ever interacts with, over and over and over again. His eyes are clever and sneaky, mismatched and filled with frightening ambition. He is feared and hated by so many people, and when he isn’t feared or hated he is disdained, rejected, reviled or dismissed. All of that is influencing people when they read the books, because most of them have little to no experience with critical analysis of physically disabled characters, and because if I’m being honest a lot of people just don’t read things critically in the first place.

Idek where I was going with this lol I’m just sort of rambling at this point, but anyways all this to say that Tyrion is no better or worse than a lot of the other asoiaf characters. Labelling him as evil in part bc of him being described as demonic, ugly, or misshapen isnt interesting or cute, it’s simply ableist. Any reading of his character that doesn’t include an understanding / analysis of him as a disabled man is an incorrect and incomplete reading of his character. Ableists stfu challenge

oh your ramblings are always welcome here! to be honest, now that you mentioned, i'm thinking about this thing, like - brienne is like a window into jaime. (i love jaime too, so i get what you're saying). through her eyes we see him in a different light; we genuinely like him and root for him. (a very hard thing to do before brienne, honestly, or before jaime becomes a POV character. jaime as POV character is simply one of the best things of the series, i think, but even in his own POV he is not very likable. he is interesting! those are different things.)

we don't have a similar character yet, a sort of reader-insert, to make us sympathetic about tyrion, at least not a POV character. maybe because i am biased (i have already decided to devote my life to love this character) i think there's A LOT OF EVIDENCE that we, as readers, are supposed to have empathy for tyrion right there in the text. but in the world of the characters, i think george made this really interesting thing of... i don't know, almost spreading the sympathy people have for tyrion? it comes in small, homeopathic doses. it's thin. and the only person who truly loves tyrion in that world is jaime, but jaime is partially responsible for tyrion's greatest pain and trauma, like, ever. (sometimes i want to scream when i think about this, lol) and then tyrion finds out about this and he literally becomes the actual worst. this is how important jaime is to him.

anyway, what i'm trying to say is: i think when tyrion and dany meet in the books, this might change. i think dany will be, for tyrion, and in many things, what brienne is to jaime - not a romantic interest necessarily, but a POV character that sees him in a different light. (or maybe she won't! maybe they'll destroy each other. but i have so much hope for them lol like you don't have any idea.)

[lilisouless]

I´m gonna do a little reading experiment

Ok , so many of you are familiar with SJM , people here love her or hate her, i kind of want my opinion here and i can't give critics without taking a peck, so i´ll read the first chapters or both ACOTAR AND TOG , i´ve seen the plot and doesn't call to me.Also...SJM kind of writes like those "men writing women" memes except well, she is a woman.

My interest is maybe find if there are characters (the thing i mostly look for in a work) that can get my attention and make me keep reading, maybe one of this books turn into a guilty pleasure.

If i don't like then i´ll take this as an experience i´m sharing on here. My critism to SJM could only be limited since this is the first book on each series and maybe she got better there.

I won't be having all the books, i don't have the time or energy, the challenge here is seeing if i can get trought the first one and maybe like one of them.Who knows.

Let´s hit it: Throne of Glass

Celeana:

-She is weird, she is supposed to be a prisioner and keeps thinking if the people around her is pretty or not

-Prince here are tought to be...repugnant? what kind of weird ass worldbuilding is this? If this is setting up something interesting, i could be on board but right now is a really awkward way to setting Celaena (i won't always spell her name right) as having prejudice against royalty but this are the first pages,doesn't have a great impact

-Celaena´s narcisim and self image obsetion has to be her fatal flaw or i won't take it

-Like, i´ll take a protagonist with Celeana´s personality if it was well fleshed out, which i don't know if is the case here.But my great problem is: it doesn't quite fit an assasin. She is unsubtle, likes to be noticed,which could work from SOME assasin characters (Ex: that villain from The Nevers) but Celeana doesn't seem crazy ,why is she exactly an assasin?

-"No soy tonta, aunque cometí la estupidez de dejar que me capturasen" mija...te tengo malas noticias.

-Celinita celestina, creo que te has de haber graduado por palanca de la academia de acesinos.

-Enought with her, concensus?:

I don't "like" her but...strangely i may keep on with her as a guilty pleasure. Like those people who hate watch riverdale ( I don't i can't stomach it) Celeana doesn't strike me as a well writen character at first sight .BUT , i can take it as Dunyasha in another life, if i don't take her seriously i can have some fun reading her. My main problem is pretty much how much she doesn't make sense but,maybe i can live with that.

Celaena passes the test, unintentionaly and for the wrong reasons but she passes

-OHOHOHOH.I wrote too soon, she is a female mysoginist, of course she is. Yeah, i will never like her as a person,let´s cross fingers that i´ll take her as a character.

Dorian

-Alright, i did laught at him complaining about Celaena´s smell, is just funny how shameless he is.He is a stiff rich and privileged kid...i may like him

-Dorian...you sure you want to offer fredom to this girl? she is kind of nuts

-"esa" 🤣🤣🤣

-Unfortunetaly, his POV is not really the big deal, is just a paragraph on how beautiful Sar...ahem,Celeana is and that´s it, what a wasted change to expand him.

Chaol-

-I don't really have a lot to say about him, but i think he is fine

-He is a little generic til now and too serious but i actually like his banther with Cealeana and is a legit good contrast ,like those two and Dorian have a potential for a power trio

-No voy a mentir , el "¿estas casado? / yo tampoco😏" me mató

You know what? if nothing specially bad happens that makes me quit the book , i´ll may actually read it all for the fun,although i don't promise anything. Just the first one,the key is not taking it seriously.

Now: ACOTAR

Feyreh

-Ok, she likes painting, a hobbie is always something that makes a protagonsit a little more relatable

-Si,si mija ya entendí que eres tan pobre que no puedes ni prestar atencion

-But...her whole dylema with the arrow is conffusing, i am having trouble to get her personality , doesn't feel nuanced , it feels more,cultered

-YA DALE CON LA FLECHA O MÉTETE PA TU CASA PERO HAS ALGO C*ADOS!!!

-WithCindy and El geek are right, how is she soo poor but as soon as she can afford fcking food she buys a strange and expensive arrow,doesn't make sense

-If this is setting Feyreh as materialistic i´m on it, BUT make it with self awareness ,since right now it just seems convenient

-Alright, Feyre being a painter right now seem like an excuse for purple prose

-I really can't point her personality ,she is just ...blah,generic and i´m surprised since i´d asume SJM´s lead female would improve ,Celeana is not great at all but at least she is defined ,Feyre is just like any female lead in all fantasy lit

-Nope, sorry Feyre but ...nope, i don't hate you but i´m nowhere charmed by you and you don't make me want to continue this.Failed test.let´s see if you supporting cast saves your series

Elain & Nesta

-So one is mean and the other is dump

You know what? i´ll just skip to the most talked characters here

Tamlin:

-Not sure yet,he seems boring but maybe he is just quiet

-I kind of fell asleep thinking about this guy

Lucien:

-I like Lucien actually , the argument between Feyre and Tamlin is kind of generic banther but his interventions are kind of good

-Call her out Lucien

-Is official, i may not continue the reading but Lucien is my boy

-I´d root for him to be the main love interest (i know he is not, i know not even Tamlin is) but he deserves better than Feyre honestly

Rhysand:

-Since this guy went, acording to tumblr,some character growth later on, this is probably like the case of Zoya in S&B or Jamie in ASOIAF , anything i could say about him here may not apply to his character in later books.

-Alright, i am not charmed by him, he seems to have an interesting backstory, has more personality than Feyre and Tamlin

-But, his character type is a personal pet peeve, characters that are overall: hot. His whole personality and actions revolves on them being the author´s fantasy hot guy and...that never does it for me. This is a personal thing since most people would call it the female gaze but ,like i said: for me it´s a no.

-Me when Lucien interacts with Rhysand:

So...no, i won't continue ACOTAR , but Lucien it was nice to meet you.In my mind,you had a happy ending and that´s it.

[pricklypear1997]

People shouldn’t even be making racebent characters to begin with… they’re just trying to insert themselves, and for some reason can’t seem to accept the fact that they might relate to a White character??? I also just find it disrespectful to try to change the canon material to your own liking. That doesn’t seem very respectful to the creator’s original intent. There’s literally no excuse or argument to make for race swapped characters. It’s over all just racist and stupid to one group or another. Why can’t people just create their own stories??? A lot of these people who do race bending think asoiaf is racist because it has “too many white people”… ummm it’s based off of medieval Europe… not 21st century USA. Martin is also white. It’s not his job to cater to anyone else in his stories. He can write about whatever race he wants, but it makes perfect sense that he’d write about white characters because he’s white, and his experience is that of a European American, therefore it would be easier for him to write about other white characters… do you just expect every other racial group to think about you, cater to you and write about you??? I think not… that would be weirdly obsessive, then again, most of the ASOIAF “fans” on tumblr are American and non white and just feel the need to shove their silly American race politics into everything. Granted there’s a lot of white fans too, who want to “please” every non white on tumblr by drawing non white characters, while also making it all the more racist. 🤦🏻‍♀️. Look, not every story has to have a diverse cast. It’s never been like that. If you want to feel represented, then go to your own culture and find those stories that you want. Make your own adaptation from said fairy tales and stories, stop trying to take away from another group (in this case white people) and honestly, just stop ruining the integrity of another person’s work. If you honestly feel the compulsion to change the race of a character, and to change major plots and entire character personalities (*ahem*: Arya stark) and plots, then this isn’t the right series for you. You clearly don’t respect it, nor like it. So just stop. Move on to something else. Better yet, find one of your more “contemporary” shows that’s full of all the American diversity you could possibly want… this is no different from Lord of the Rings; Rings of power. The people claim to be “fans” but literally claim how much of a sexist and a racist JRR Tolkien was, while completely altering the story and changing character personalities completely. It doesn’t even look like lord of the rings… looks like some messed up post apocalypse neo-feudalist reset of New York… like wtf??? It’s kinda funny too, because middle earth is based off of Europe and European folklore… that is the focus of the story… but there’s other countries and continents in the world of LotR, it’s just not the main focus. It’s the same with ASOIAF. I think there are some legitimate things that can be criticized when it comes to ASOIAF, but race is NOT it. Neither is sexism, but the show is incredibly sexist 100%. There’s another huge controversy besides race bending, and that’s giving characters gender identities and sex changes. :/ like that too needs to stop. Once again, you want a character that’s lgbt? Make your own stories. Besides ASOIAF has some lgbt in it already, not a lot, but that’s literally because WE ARE THE MINORITY. my fave gets race bent as some ambiguously dark skinned Asian/Native American , she gets misgendered as “they/them” or even as a trans boy, is written off as asexual or maybe bisexual, gets her personality and story arc completely rewritten by the fandom, gets shipped with like 12 other characters, despite showing zero interest (bro she’s 9-12 in the story), except maybe just a little for one particular character, is made to look a bit more like her older sister but with a darker complexion too despite looking NOTHING alike, is said to hate women, blah blah blah… I swear, most of the fans of this series, saw the show and loved everything about it.

But would literally change one thing, and that’s make all the characters “PoC”. As someone who is bisexual, and “mixed race” (3/4ths white Eastern European/Balkan and 1/4th Asian) I still relate to Arya 100% and I don’t feel the need to change her. I don’t want to change her. Just like I don’t want people to try to change me, or force their false perceptions onto me, which is something I’ve dealt with most of my life lol. I’ve dealt with the same kind of bullying and ostracizing that Arya went through. I suffer from PTSD and depression, same as Arya. This series has helped me accept myself as I am, through a character like Arya. So why would I want to change her? If you actually love this series, then stop trying to change it and it’s characters. Stop inserting your stupid racist and sexist obsessions and fetishizes into this story. I’m sooooo tired of it.

If Jon and Arya are POC compared to whites Catelyn, Sansa, Robb, Bran and Rickon as depicted in all the fanart, then Sansa is not only classist but really racist as well:

Why couldn’t Arya be sweet and delicate and kind, like Princess Myrcella? She would have liked a sister like that. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon’s mother had been common, or so people whispered. - Sansa, AGoT

Notice Sansa including Arya’s ‘coloring’ for why she dislikes Arya as her sister and instead wants Arya to be a low born bastard like Jon Snow? If you take this to mean Arya’s skin color and not hair color, then Sansa really is a racist bigot.

Keep that in mind when drawing your racist fanart.

[captainelliecomb]

AGOT Arya I

Late to the Party: ASOIAF

Summary: Arya’s introduced with her dismay over her crooked stitches and that sets the tone for the entire chapter. She’s caught in rules that do not fit her, the restrictions of ladyhood that does not fit her, and she’s miserable and hurt and angry and sad over it all. Her humour is a little snarky and pointed, and it’s a nice balance to the wry humour we saw from Jon and Cat. Arya gives us a look at how Joffrey is spoilt and how unfair life is for girls and bastard boys alike.

I love that the first real look we have at Arya, besides her escorting Tommen from Jon’s POV, is that her stitches are crooked and she’s dismayed over them.

The septa saying Arya has the hands of a blacksmith is (a) interesting that she befriends a blacksmith soon, and (b) one of the first, if not the first, examples we get of even “good” septas being horrid to girls who step outside the rigidly designed way to be a lady. (SEPTA ROELLE.)

I’m not Catholic, and I don’t know much about Catholicism nor GRRM’s relationship with religion, but is this a criticism of Catholic school teacher nuns?

ARYA THINKS MYRCELLA’S STITCHES LOOK A LITTLE CROOKED TOO.

My kingdom for a happy adventure with Arya and Myrcella.

The lack of girls and ladies around our main characters is something I’d noticed in the show, but I didn’t feel the lack as strongly as I do now, seeing all these girls together. The show left women standing alone. The books do this, too, worse and worse as we go on, and it is just as frustrating.

Arya, don’t be rude toward Tommen, he’s a delight!

Arya telling Sansa what Jon said about Joffrey instead of what she herself thinks (which, we see a few paragraphs before, is that he’s handsome, much like Sansa thinks) made me laugh. And of course Arya thinks of Jon as their brother, not their bastard brother as we’ve seen Bran do and not the bastard half brother as we just saw Sansa do.

Arya feeling exposed and judged and hurt by the laughter from Jeyne and the pity from Myrcella is heartbreaking. I already love this dear, sweet girl. Go be friends with Brienne, dearheart! You can have sword adventures. Collect your hodge-podge of commoners as you go.

I HAVE TO GO SHOE A HORSE.

Arya with the snark! Jon’s and Cat’s humour has been dry wit. Arya’s fierce snark, and I love it too.

The only things Arya can do better than Sansa is ride a horse (shades of Lyanna,  yes) and manage a household. She’s smart and balanced and I hate that Arya feels so constrained by the world of being a lady and by the torment of the older girls. Arya Horseface. Bloody hell.

THE WOLF PUP LOVED HER, EVEN IF NO ONE ELSE DID.

Arya, my dear girl.

I can see why some readers cling to Arya and hate on Sansa, particularly readers who have felt out of place, ugly, talentless, awkward, etc., which a lot of people assume makes up all of fandom. (It doesn’t.)

Arya running with Nymeria at her heels is a great image and makes me want to see her running with the great wolf pack Nymeria builds in the Riverlands, to see Arya, the wild little wolf, the wolf girl with sharp teeth, running with them in defense of the north.

Jon and Arya both going to the covered walkway to watch Robb and Joffrey train with swords is a nice way to show how similar they are beyond the physical, how close they are as siblings, and how each of them is outside the bounds of life at Winterfell, outside what is expected of them.

Ghost already being larger than his litter mates is excellent. He was the runt, Theon swore he would die, and here he is, thriving where he shouldn’t. Hello, metaphor for Jon.

Little Bran and Tommen sparring with so much padding they are ridiculous is cute.

The Tully look, “easy smiles and fire in their hair.” Vivacious, friendly, charming, and yet ready to burn with righteousness and love.

“THE WOMAN IS IMPORTANT TOO!” ARYA PROTESTED.

If I didn’t already love her, this would be the point where she stole my heart completely. And YES, she should make her mother’s House equal in honour to her father’s. She’s a Tully and a Stark. Catelyn is still a Tully and a Stark for all she’s embraced her married House.

“[...] if a girl can’t fight, why should she have a coat of arms?”

Jon shrugged. “Girls get the arms but not the swords. Bastards get the swords but not the arms. I did not make the rules, little sister.”

Oh Arya. Oh Jon.

Makes me think of Brienne and the painted shield and earlier than that, Ser Duncan the Tall having his shield painted.

The Hound snarling at Ser Rodrik over Joffrey and Robb fighting with live steel, and Rodrik’s pointed slap about him training knights, which the Hound of course wouldn’t find an insult, because knighthood is a farce, I liked that introduction to him. So many people who see knighthood as an honour don’t also see the ways it can be an abusive system.

I feel for Robb, belittled by Joffrey (and would whether or not Joffrey was otherwise a shit) in his own home. It’s no surprise that Joffrey turned out terrible and following his worst impulses, he was never checked, told always that he should receive whatever he wanted as a prince, no matter how dangerous.

[aboveallarescuer]

In the end Dany won against the WoT fans. But it was very noticable that a significant part of them used run-of-the-mill trash takes known from the ASOIAF book scene to attack Dany (when they didn't just use the show finale to slander).You know, the type of ASOIAF nerds who proudly claim S8 is the expectable endgame for her book character, too. And in fact, that is what many also tweeted all the time, they moved from that scene to TWOT. The shitty takes infiltrate other fandoms, too, sigh.

Since I got this ask and I’m feeling petty right now, here are some observations from these polls:

As Rob pointed out in another post, before Moraine competed against Dany, she had received a lot less votes (which indicates that, in this recent poll, a lot of people were now focused on voting against Dany rather than for Moraine), namely ~1464-1465 votes (60,5% of 2421 votes) in a poll against against Harry Potter. Now, to be sure, that Moraine won against Harry Potter shows that she too has a loyal fanbase, so there were a number of people voting for her that may have simply preferred her over Dany (though there was certainly some overlap between her fans and Dany haters and also some people that don’t know Moraine and voted for her to defeat Dany too). And Dany’s previous poll hadn’t received as many votes either (she won against Black Panther with 63.8% of 3163 votes, i.e. ~2017 votes), so things are understandably getting heated now that we’re getting to the end. 

Even with these factors in mind, though, I still think it’s pretty telling that the poll Dany was in received 25054 votes, while the other three polls only received from 8110 to 12037 votes. And since Dany won with 54.9% of these 25054 votes, this means that she received ~13754-13755 votes (more than the total number of votes from all of the other three polls! Go, Dany stans!) and that Moraine got ~11299-11300 votes. While I’m glad that Dany’s fanbase is strong and faithful, it’s safe to say that her haters are almost as loud, because they could have also filled their own poll with that number of votes (and yes, as I acknowledged, some people know and prefer Moraine, which is fine on its own, but her votes were certainly bolstered by Dany haters, who were in the comments calling Dany “inbred Hitler”, “inbred targaryen bitch”, “war criminal”, a less positive “representation of womanhood” in comparison to Moraine and other nonsensical insults that I won’t bother to look at). Dany’s haters really were that eager to see her lose.

In the future, Dany is going to compete against Mulder and Scully. They received ~6680-6681 votes (55% of 12037 votes) in a poll against Spider-Man. I’m curious to see how much their number of votes will grow now that they’re going against the Mother of Dragons. Some of their fans will rush in to support them at this stage, that’s for sure, but a lot of people exclusively hate Dany (or hate her more than they like the two FBI agents) and will try to help as well. It blows my mind that Dany’s haters are as devoted to her as her fans.

Re: people claiming that S8 is the expectable endgame for her book character, this infuriates me too (and partly (only partly) explains why so many think the nasty things they’re saying about Dany are acceptable). When it comes to the show, a lot of Dany fans already presented compelling evidence that the show writers changed the ending at the last minute merely for shock value. When it comes to the books, a lot of Dany fans already explained with detailed evidence that Dany’s characterization is more nuanced than having “two” sides (a “peaceful” one and a “violent” one), but people hold on to that narrative because they judge her most controversial moments by modern standards that the other characters aren’t held to. A lot of Dany fans already explained that her war for the Iron Throne isn’t any more morally problematic than Northern independence, but these people refuse to listen. A lot of Dany fans (including feminist women of color) already explained why Dany isn’t a white savior and why her campaign in Slaver’s Bay isn’t imperialistic, but rather a morally righteous war, but these people refuse to listen. A lot of Dany fans already showed, with lots of quotes, how book!Dany is compassionate, intelligent, self-critical, humble and way too lenient (which shows that she was made to fall in the show for reasons that were entirely made up), but these people still think that she’s arrogant, entitled, brash, violent, excessively driven by prophecies, dumb, etc (nevermind that GRRM wrote Dany as a foil to Cersei). A lot of Dany fans already provided the evidence making it clear that she is AA/PTWP/SWMTW, but they pretend it isn’t there. I could go on and on when it comes to all the misconceptions that Dany fans have already replied to that make it impossible for show!Dany’s ending to be the same (even the general points) as book!Dany’s, but these people don’t care. They’re lazy douchebags who already made up their minds about Dany and will continue to bash her and write literal hundreds of pages about how she’s just like Donald Trump because they take pleasure in doing so. Even so, yeah, it makes me angry that they’re so dedicated to their hatred that they’ve influenced how people from other fandoms view her. It makes me angry that the common view of Dany is so far off from her book canon characterization.