#lonnie (i didn't do it!) terry (no)...

[chirpsythismorning]

Lonnie's last appearance in The First Shadow [source]:

"It wasn't me. I didn't do it!"

Lonnie's first mention in the series (1x01)

Which reminded me...

Kate Trefry talking about The First Shadow [source]:

We always try to go back to the original pilot and say, what more is there to learn about this moment?

Based on the leaks out there, there seems to be very few Lonnie scenes in the play, and yet it also sounds like he's gotta be the most consistently portrayed when compared to his character on the show, more than anyone else, even down to this very line, this concept of him having nothing to do with it. This tells me that with what little they were willing to give, there is a major significance to it and what it means for his character and for his role in the story overall.

So what is it? What does Lonnie have nothing to do with?

In s1, it's about Will and his disappearance. But clearly it's more than that because they made a point to have Joyce say it twice, to trust her on this.

If Lonnie has nothing to do with this, and that's a theme they want to carry out in this play in a way that quite literally juxtaposes his first mention on the show, taking us back to the very beginning, what does that mean?

Idk. Maybe it just means he has nothing to do with this. Maybe it means he has nothing to do with Will more than we realize...

It's giving

[greenfiend]

cw blood/gore

hi! saw some beautiful fanart that reminded me of the manga The Promised Neverland (heavy rec to look it up, at least the promo pics -you might find that the outfits look kind of familiar). if you haven't read it, the story follows a group of kids who think they're orphans, but in reality are being raised as human cattle to feed the demonkind (and they are killed by a spear in the shape of a rose, like in the aforementioned fanart). Here's the thing, tho: only children younger than 12 and completely raised in that farm can be sacrifices bc the premium meat is their brains, which is why they're subjected to rigurous mental, academic and even physical training (in their innocent minds, to be the first choice for a couple looking for a kid to adopt.)

besides a few interesting parallels in the setup of this story to hawkins lab, it made me think of something that might be an additional clue to DID theory: El was so notoriously frail in 1983, she even looked malnourished. The kid characters in the TPN farms were well-fed not only to 'taste nice', but bc a growing brain needs LOTS of nutrients to function, even moreso when it's being stimulated above capacity. With El being the only kid left in the lab, shouldn't Brenner and the staff have taken much more care of her health -if anything bc they wanted her to be 'a powerful weapon'?? sure, it might be possible that whenever she was thrown in the dark room she wasn't given any food for indefinite periods of time, as well as (maybe) the amount of drugs terry consumed during the pregnancy playing a part but, as i mentioned above, that would've been counterproductive to the lab's goals.

tl;dr: it makes little sense that el was that tiny and almost sickly-looking if she was supposed to be a well-kept weapon.

the small built overall, imo, rather makes me think of someone who grew up in poverty, who might have been denied meals depending on who was warding him -someone who continually didn't get enough nutrients for a very young age, i think. wbu?

Ahhh your brain!

CW/TW: Disordered eating and fatphobia

(Disordered eating has been a common theme within the show that we don't talk about enough.)

That manga sounds like it definitely could be inspiration for ST!

Being raised as human cattle to feed the demons... wowww. Thinking about how "Byers" means to live by a cattle shed, and of course the shed that Will vanished in. Also, all the cattle references throughout the show.

(Of course this makes me think of Hopper and the Russians being fed to be "plump" and "full of nutrients and protein that a growing monster might need".)

But yes yes YES, you're absolutely right! El was STARVING when we first see her I mean...

Why wouldn't they feed her enough? You're right it doesn't make sense. They have the funds to do so, and she's supposed to be a powerful weapon, arguably the most powerful!

El is small built just like... the boy who was explicitly said to be small. SO MUCH SO that they had him played by Noah Schnapp who is 2 whole years younger (!!!) than the other boys. They even tried to hide his muscles in ST4 to make him look less buff (sorry guys, Buff Byers isn't a canon concept...)

The Byers are poor, and this also isn't talked about enough. Joyce has been struggling with her mental health/working a lot. Jonathan also works and is forced to take on the role of a parent. And... Lonnie is implied to have an alcohol and substance use disorder and is obviously a neglectful parent (to say the least...)

Growing up, I think it's highly likely that Will was not provided with adequate nutrient...

(Hopper cracks open a walnut as he says this... walnuts resemble brains...)

Anyway, here's some likely ED references...

Why are all these references present? I'm not quite sure yet, but I do think it could be related to Will's warped view on food/diets (or maybe Mike's? Or both?). However, I definitely do think that Will was not cared for properly at times nor provided with adequate nutrition growing up... and that's why El (his alter) was starving when she appeared at Benny's Diner.

His parents forgot to feed him.

[brionysea]

if hopper's memories of sara are fake, does that mean he used to work for the lab?

he had a dangerous job. that job affected his family. he knew that, did it anyway, kept it secret, and lost his daughter (el) because of it

maybe he fully realised what they were doing was wrong when el and will were going to be directly affected by it. letting superpowered kids get treated like that is different when they're your own. maybe he tried to do something about it, like terry ives did, and that came crashing down on all of them

terry is el's fake parent memory, which could easily be a stand in for hopper and joyce the same way sara is for el, since they both got their brains scrambled/memories erased and were overall neutralised. it didn't work very well because they've still been causing a lot of trouble and acting like a family anyway. terry literally sent el to someone who creates illusions when she tried to stay with the ives because that's not her real home

the whole byers-hopper family (just the hoppers? if joyce and hopper were married?) forgot that they're a family, so hopper lost his wife(?) and children, joyce and the boys had to deal with lonnie, and el got banished to the lab. she gets her strength from her family so isolating her makes sense, and i guess the same applies to hopper

i'm also obsessed with the idea that the Bad Timeline version of hopper's life is the one where he works for the police

[itsjustbyler]

"Lonnie is El's biological dad" anon here. In this case, Joyce would still be Will's biological mom. Lonnie had Will with Joyce, meanwhile cheated on her with Terry and had El.

Lonnie took Will to the lab a few times to find out if he was also born with powers, since Lonnie knew that his and Terri's child was born "special", because both were part of the MK Ultra experiments. Brenner and the lab though Will was an ordinary child, and didn't include him in the program with the other "numbers".

Ohh now I got it! This is so interesting. It would explain why he hated Will so much (of course because he was a disgusting, awful, piece of shit of a father) but also because Will is not as "special" than her in his POV? Do you have any post or recommendation about this theory? i want to know more 😭

[willel]

I am confused here because I think the lab being involved in the Byers family situation pretty much explains things better than all of the stuff happening as a consequence. With the 'lab was involved, too' scenario you just have to explain things and expand on them. Because the other scenario too depending on several consequences; Vecna finding out Will's existence on that very same night and ending up lucky that he somehow found (luckily) a person who was similar to him with potential unlocked powers, El somehow recognizing Will as a consequence because that's ''what was expected from her powers'', Brenner onlu faking Will's death and not bothering with the other victim's deaths because the other victims did not matter so it was a consequence. Will somehow manipulating things in the UD because... consequence and random things, it just happened that way plotwise. Like, isn't that worse as a plot explanation?

(rambling incoming)

But you'd need to explain the Byers being completely and totally unaware of anything about the lab at all. That is key here. That is a LOT that they just "oopsie forgot to mention".

It's pretty clear the Byers had no idea about the lab or anything strange in season 1. It's clear Joyce didn't know Brenner or the lab in general while she was there. Lonnie is a deadbeat scumbag living in Indianapolis, too absentee to even sell off his kids.

How do you connect the dots of the Byers being totally oblivious to all this stuff in season 1? I can't wrap my head around this.

Hopper had a whole box of Hawkins lab files under his cabin about all the tests and experiments going on there with Terry and the kids, but he neglected to ever mention Joyce, Lonnie, Will, or Jonathan being wrapped up in all this stuff?

When I read those theories, it just reads as

Joyce/Lonnie got Will involved with the lab

Henry/El meet Will

???

Memory loss arc because none of the Byers have ever acknowledged any connections with the lab. Henry yes. The lab, no.

It might just be a difference in preference, but I find it much more believable that:

Vecna/the Demogorgon was chasing El that night

Either on purpose or accident, switched targets to Will and dragged him into the Upside Down

Upon his capture, discovers Will is a perfect kind of host/sympathizer and spends at least 1 season so far trying to keep Will chained down and will probably do so again

As for El's role in all this, I detailed it in my other post. I concluded the most likely scenario being El saw Will getting kidnapped either in person or through her mind's eye. All we can say for sure is that she recognized him. They can't have known each other or met more than once because we can't ignore the fact that Will did not know her prior and continues not to know her for another whole season.

This mixture of coincidence/accident turned into purposeful action on Henry's part makes a lot more sense to me.

Imagine this scenario.

It's in the middle of covid. You're confined to your house but you REALLY want this cool fancy cup you found online. You order the cup. They deliver the wrong cup. You're annoyed but you decide to use the cup anyway. Come to find out, this wrong cup is actually super awesome. Maybe it's not as expensive and cool as the cup you wanted, but it suits you just fine. Every now and then, the delivery driver tries to break into your house and take your cup back and eventually they succeed. It pisses you off because you actually liked that wrong cup and want it back. You still don't have the actual cup you originally ordered so you just sit in your house pissed off, trying to find ways to get back at the delivery driver for taking your wrong cup. Something like that.

That is how I think this situation happened.

Henry wanted El. He sent his delivery driver (the demogorgon) to get her. The Demogorgon delivered the wrong kid. Henry accepted it and just went with it and came to found out, this kid is also pretty good for what he wanted to do. He smacked a "MY PROPERTY" stamp on Will's forehead and got pissed when they took him back. Cue the rest of the series.

I think people who believe absolutely EVERYTHING that happened to Will was an accident are wrong. I also don't think the Byers have been involved in all this from the very start, it's too much missing information to fill in.

I don't remember the exact wording, but in the scripts it said something like, "Not siblings by blood, but by circumstances". That one line explains the entirety of WillEl and Will's involvement in this stuff.

You know how El is the fish out of water when it comes to normal every life? Well Will is the opposite. He's the fish out of water when it comes to the Upside Down mess and lab stuff. Living a normal life with friends and family was not El's reality. But it's her reality now. The lab/Henry was not Will's story, but it's becoming his story whether he likes it or not.

I know ST has plotholes and stuff they fill in after the fact, but it's usually to the benefit of a story they're trying to tell. They added onto El's backstory to explain the man behind the Mind Flayer. The backstory of the lab and them being trapped there together and him pushing her to her limits and getting banished to the Upside Down... that's crucial stuff that NEEDED the lab to be involved. (I'm of the firm belief subject 0 or 1 was always planned, though they could've executed it better)

Will being tied to the lab isn't necessary in comparison. You'd not only have to explain why he'd be there in the first place, but also his parents. To our knowledge, Hawkins publicly accepted adults for MKUltra.

I think in the books, it specifically states adults without dependents/children are eligible so Joyce would've been rejected and so would Lonnie (books are only half canon so eh). MKUltra was performed on adults. The child program was secret. Those kids weren't recruited off the street, they were taken under extraordinary circumstances and even reported missing.

You'd have to introduce an entirely new subplot like "So, actually when Will was younger they gave parents money to bring their kids in for some tests. And Joyce/Lonnie did this once. He met El and Henry. And then nothing happened and everyone forgot about the lab and the weird test they went to take."

Or "Joyce was a part of MKUltra or almost was but then returned to a normal life after" when we know good and well Brenner is not above kidnapping newborn infants from his previous test subjects. Will 100% would've been taken just like El.

Instead, just saying "Will quite literally got wrapped up in all of this due to mistaken identity -a common occurrence between him and El btw- and has never known peace since because the mistaken identity situation actually lead to actual similarities between the two." makes the most sense, connects all the dots, and doesn't need the writers to write a contrived reason why Will was already involved with the lab before.

It'd be like you met someone on the street and they look just like you. You joke around like "What if we were long lost siblings lol" and then it turns out you actually are. Not saying Will and El are blood related, just that concept of something so surface level ending up being deeper.

How I see it, Will and El's stories are almost exactly the same but in reverse. El's life started in the lab/supernatural and it's slowly becoming more normal. Will's life was completely normal and now it's been slowly seeping into the supernatural.

El was kidnapped by the lab/Brenner. Will was kidnapped by the Upside Down/Henry.

El's story has been about her building it up piece by piece, gaining everything in life she lacked. Will's life, while not great, was once whole and has been falling apart piece by piece in comparison.

When El was with the group, Will was missing. When Will was in the group, El was missing.

To me, if Will's backstory is tied into the lab, the very foundations that make Will and El mirror images of each other weakens.

[strange-anni]

discussions of dark stuff under the cut

Absolutely terrifying. It's likely we're talking about a very young child here and that makes it all the worse. I mean we've seen young children being lured by candy and apparently there is a theme in the novels/comics of a young child wanting to stay in an a*usive environment bc they don't want to leave their friend behind. Keeping that in mind, would it be so hard to imagine that Lonnie threatened young Will to do as he pleases or otherwise Mike may get hurt?

To top it of we have seen Lonnie use such manipulation tactics with Jonathan in season 1. He told him to behave for his mother or otherwise she might not be able to handle what he says to him.

That's exactly where the Mike may also be prey scene fits in. If Lonnie manipulated Will into doing as he wants by threating to harm Mike than in Wills mind Mike is in danger of becoming a potential victim too. Therefore he'd become prey too. El/Will saving him makes also sense in that regard bc as long as Will obeys Mike will be save. Therefore he won't become prey.

Good god I didn't even know Will and El were supposed to kill someone in S2. This makes it all so much worse. If I were to guess maybe there are two parts to what happened. One where Will was supposed to just watch and one where Lonnie forced him to do something bad.

Maybe in 1976 he was supposed to just watch. Then later in 1979 Will forced to do something against his will. That's the year when El thought she killed all those children but then found out that it wasn't her who did it. (That's also the year of the elder tree campaign and Nancy dressing up as an elf)

We do know that Will knows how to load and use a gun at the age of 12.

It could be a sister but I'm also not ruling Jonathan out entirely either. It has to be someone who Will was close to though. It makes me think of all the sisters appearing and then disappearing. The fact that a lot of them seem to be blonde like that photo of the blonde boy on the radio in the Byers house in S1E2 (I believe) whos supposedly Jonathan Byers.

On the topic of disappearing redheads though: Depending on how you interpret cats in the show, Mews might fit into that theme as well

A red cat who is apparently female (?) which is rare for red/orange cats as most of them are male. Mews though is supposedly female like Barb, Max and Vickie are girls/woman. Then she died, got eaten by D'Artagnan and fused back into the system. Like Barb did and like what almost happened to Max.

It's also interesting to see who later replaced Mews. Tews is a Siamese cat. When Siamese cats are born, they are almost entirely white and then during their life they get progressively darker. (It's due to body temperature. They have enzymes which makes them change their coat color when the temperature falls below a certain degree. Therefore body parts like legs, tail and ears which are harder to keep above a certain temperature darken first)

This makes me think of young Jane who we've seen as blonde girl from Terrys perspective and then El who isn't blonde but brunette instead. Something with innocence being lost from a young age?

EDIT: I just remembered this post about a dogs. Maybe a dog witnessed something they shouldn't have seen and then had to pay the prize for it? But who is this dog supposed to be? Will, Jonathan, Hopper or someone else entirely?

An inverted 7Up ↑ is a 7Down ↓ (many thanks to @greenfiend)

An Upside Down 7 looks like an L (like the L in Lonnie)

In other words: We have to look 7 years into the past to figure out what what happend to Will

I'm thinking more about this concept and specifically the 13 Will needed to roll in order to defeat the Demogorgon aka the Deep Father aka Lonnie

MIKE: Will, your action! WILL: I don't know! LUCAS: Fireball him! WILL: I'd have to roll a 13 or higher!

13 years prior to 1983 would be 1970. This is the year Joyce got pregnant with Will. So in order to defeat the Deep Father we have to go back to a time when the Deep Father became the father of Will. In other words unless Lonnies fatherhood is undone, there is no way to defeat the father.

(or so Will thinks)

[erikiara80]

I've always believed Will was Henry's target all along, too. The only thing I need clarity about is when and how Henry learned about Will's existence, powers and potential. Do you have any theory about it? I've thought about Lonnie taking Will to the lab (c0nversion therapy vibes) in the guise of baseball or Henry seeing/detecting Will in the woods (or in Castle Byers) before he was banished by El, but I' not satisfied with either option yet.

Ciao, anon! This is one of the biggest mysteries of the story. I talk about it here and I think in other posts, too. You can find them here .

I thought about Lonnie taking Will to the lab and Henry (and El?) seeing him there. And, even if Brenner thought he was just a normal kid, Will could've done or said something that made Henry realise he has powers. (EDIT: I now think Will’s powers weren’t activated until he arrived in the UD, so I don’t know how Henry could’ve noticed them. Something about him being sensitive to certain things?) 

I really don't know. There are cameras everywhere in the lab. And if Henry had showed any interest in Will, then wouldn’t Will vanishing the very night the gate opened be a bit suspicious? But in S1 Brenner didn't care about Will at all. In 1x08, when a woman asked him: "What if they find the boy?" he answered: "They won't". He just wanted to find El. And them knowing how to make a perfect replica of Will's body, one of the reasons people think he was at the lab at some point, could just mean that the government knew everything about the people in Hawkins. In fact, we know they listened to every phone call. Plus, if Will was brought to the lab, it must’ve happened when he was younger. So he looked different from when he got kidnapped. I know people could say that it's S1 and the Duffers said they wrote the story of the UD and the mythology of the show in S2, so everything is possible. I get it. It is possible. But it's not like the events of S1 have no meaning at all. And the Duffers said that Henry was always the villain. In S4 we saw many callbacks. El killing with the head tilt in S1 just like Henry does in S4 and the lab kid turning on the lights in the same way Will did in his bedroom, when Holly was there. So I think they would've at least hinted at something about Will and the lab in S4, maybe when El was with Brenner. But we'll see. Maybe Lonnie brought Will there, because he thought Brenner and the other doctors could fix Will’s queerness like Virginia wanted Brenner to fix Henry. I just think other theories make more sense.

This is my theory. EDIT : I believe that all the people with powers are connected to the UD. Specifically, to the powerful being that lives there (or even conquered that world that now seems dead) The Mind Flayer. I think all the powers come from it. When he was a kid, Henry Creel communicated with this being probably because the veil between the worlds was thinner in his house, and since he was special, a sensitive child (sensitive to powers) this contact made him acquire many abilities. Then we know that all the powers of the people Brenner experimented on come from Henry. Terry’s, El’s, Kali’s. As for Will. He’s like Henry. Not a lab kid. He was sensitive too and when he arrived in the UD, he acquired powers.

The evidence of all this is El sending Henry to the UD without even knowing that place existed. The lights when she remembers her mom imo mean that she was remembering her connection to those powers. The reason Project Nina was created. The MF’s bite/toxin had interrupted her connection to her powers. So they made her remember it in her past. The Mind Flayer is a cosmic being with supernatural abilities, like an alien plant or mushroom that wants to spread into other worlds with its spores and vines. We know for a fact that Henry didn’t create them. They were there when El opened the gate, like they were waiting for Henry. And Henry only shaped the spores that were in the sky. Then he became Vecna by merging with the vines. I don’t know if the Mind Flayer is evil. After all, spiders, viruses or mushrooms aren’t evil but they’re definitely dangerous. We know what those vines do.

So back to question. How Henry could know about Will. If he didn’t see him at the lab, it is possible that he sensed him just like he and the MF sensed each other when he was a kid. 

That's how. Now Let's talk about the when. Henry told El that after she banished him, he just had to wait for her to open a door. He knew it was just a matter of time, because El was still with Brenner and Henry knew Papa very well. He knew he would've tried to find him. But waiting for El to open a gate doesn't mean just sitting there, watching floating rocks. A man like Henry wants to be ready, to have a plan. So I think that, after he found the MF and, like he said, he became the predator he thought he was born to be, he started to spy on Brenner and El. And he made El find the Demogorgon. It's totally in character for him. He spied on a lot of people in S4, and at the end of S2 we see the Mind Flayer looming over the school, probably spying on both Will and El.

So, I think Henry sensed Will, somewhere between 1979 and 1983, while he was spying on Brenner and El from the Upside Down. This would be important, because so far the show has only explored Henry and El parallels. If Henry has spied on this sensitive kid, who loves drawing and feels different, he would think they're alike, just like he thought he and El were. I guess they could just say he sensed him when the gate opened and then attacked him. But I really hope Will and Henry have a long history, too. : )

What do you think?

[truessences]

You asked for Mileven fic ideas:

1. Mileven navigating questions about future plans. El is still hiding from the authorities at the end of mike's junior year in his, and she starts to worry about the future once she hears the party starting to worry about college. When will she be free, at least to the extent she was in Lenora? Will she be free B4 he leaves for college? Even if she is, what does that mean for them? It's not like she would get into the same colleges as him. Jopper doesn't have that kind of money, and she has been studying for the past year (unofficial home schooling) but she isn't sure she is ready for senior year academically speaking even if she got the government of her tail right now, and got some fake id showing she had finished all the other grades. And would she fit into his post- high school life? She didn't really fit in back in Cali. I know this sound like jancy S4, but Mileven are different ppl, and have different circumstances.

2. Mike getting caught sneaking out at night by jopper, prompting an awkward conversation ( and perhaps Joyce decides will should get involved too, since they have to discuss these things with him anyways, so why wait until he is in a relationship, instead of getting it over with now).

3. El comforting mike over Eddie's death. 4. El telling mike about the other lab children and mourning their death.

5. El and mike watching their friends get drunk and either messing with them, or trying to stop them from doing something stupid ( this is admittedly more of a party fic, but if the focus is on them, and how they deal with their friends drunken antics, it counts as Mileven, right?).

6. Mileven discussing the morality of murder, as el questions her past actions, and her disagreement with Kali

7. Mike doing el's make up for some event, bc Joyce and Nancy are available.

8. Terry Ives died, and mike helps her through it

9. El and will have a fight about will saying something negative about hopper, bc hopper is dealing with the trauma from his time in russia by drinking a lot, and bc Will has some issues thanks to lonnie, so he worries a lot about hopper hurting Joyce somehow. El wents to mike, and mike tries to mediate, and help el understand why will is so sceptical of hopper, despite being grateful for everything he has done for him and his family.

These are some great ideas! I think there are a couple that stood out to me immediately!

Definitely 3 since I feel very strongly about that not being included.

6 is very interesting and I think I could explore that.

Thanks so much for your ideas! If anyone else has any Mileven fic ideas, send me asks!

[beepboop358]

Victor Creel Theories

(also includes ST movie DNA series: Star Wars)

Victor Creel is described as "a disturbed and intimidating man who is imprisoned in a psychiatric hospital for a gruesome murder in the 1950s." We know he will be institutionalized at Penthurst mental hospital, where Peter Ballard works, based on leaked on set pics.

There a few possibilities regarding his character:

He could be a former test subject with some kind of powers and a connection to the upside down (which would also follow the even/odd season pattern of a main character being directly involved with the upside down creatures) I think it's highly likely that Victor Creel will be involved with the mystery/danger in Hawkins in some way, and have a connection to the upside down. He could also be disturbed on top of this, and he could be involved in Eleven's storyline this season.

That he is not a test subject and is ONLY mentally disturbed.

He may be related to one of the already established characters. Most likely Joyce, and maybe Terry but it's a stretch.

Before I go any further into that last possibility, I just want to preface that this idea of an "evil father/grandfather with powers" could be a purposeful Star Wars parallel. The Duffer brothers have already paralleled and used Star Wars references a few times in the show:

In Star Wars, Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father, and Palpatine is Rey's grandfather (aka the literal worst guy in the universe). A common theme in ST is abusive/bad fathers - that post here. Interesting...

Palpatine is also Anakin Skywalker's father, so Luke and Leia are both the grandkids of Palpatine as well as Rey is, but it's unclear if they are just force midichlorian related or actually dna related as well but I won't get into that here!

Luke and Rey are both force sensitive (have powers), so are Darth Vader and Palpatine; their descendants (kid/grandkid) have powers, and so do they (father/grandfather) The descendants use their powers for good, while the ancestors use their power for evil. Who has powers in ST? Eleven and Will - and they both already have this idea of abusive/bad/evil fathers: Will has an abusive father Lonnie, and Eleven has an abusive father figure Dr. Brenner "Papa".

So... Victor Creel being the evil/bad grandfather to either Eleven or Will and the evil/bad father to Joyce or Terry, would make a FULL Star Wars parallel to people who are morally good and have powers (Will and El - Luke and Rey), discovering they are the descendant of an evil male figure who also has powers (Victor Creel - Darth Vader and Palpatine)

If Victor Creel turns out to be the father of anyone in the show my bets are it's either Joyce Byers or maybeee Terry Ives.

If he was a test subject, its likely he went "crazy" with some of his powers and the government couldn't cover it up so they declare him mentally insane to get him committed, and he probably goes insane being locked away as well. Personally, I think he may be 001 or an early test subject, when they were still working out the kinks of the program, and I think he does have a big connection to the upside down.

The Duffer Brother's on s4: "In Hawkins a new horror is beginning to surface, something long buried, something that connects everything"....

Now let's get into the possibilities for Creel's storyline/who he could be related to (split into 3 parts).

Part 1: Creel could be Joyce's father

Based on Victor Creel's description as "disturbed" and that he is "in a psychiatric hospital", it could connect him to Joyce's bloodline.

There are several comments in the show hinting to this idea of mental instability in Joyce's family:

s1 ep.5: When Lonnie comes to visit in s1 after Will goes missing, Joyce says to Lonnie "No, don't look at me like that, like how everyone is looking at me, like I'm out of my damn mind" He responds saying "I think you need to consider the possibility that this is all in your head. Remember your Aunt Darlene?" Joyce quickly replies, "No, this is not that."

That conversation, although quick, is very telling. Lonnie is implying that Joyce had an aunt who was mentally unstable - and Joyce clearly knows about her aunt being unstable because she responds to his comment by saying what's she's experiencing is not that (the mental instability of her aunt)

s2 ep.2: Joyce says to Bob, "this is not a normal family", when he suggest moving out of Hawkins.

I used to think Joyce was always was referring to the whole 'my son got stuck in an alternate dimension with supernatural monsters and is now traumatized, and we were sworn to secrecy by the government' thing but maybe she is also referring to her biological family.

s1 ep.2: When they are searching for Will, one of the other police officers, says "Joyce is one step from the edge" and the other officer responds "She has been several steps for quite a while now".

If Joyce is related to Victor Creel biologically, and he did also happen to be a test subject, has powers, or has some other relation to the upside down, this could possibly have contributed to whatever kind of abilities Will has, because he would be a descendant of Creel. But Joyce does not seem to have any powers and neither does Jonathan. If they were related to Creel, it's odd that they both didn't get powers, but Will did. I've always thought Will was born with his powers, like El.

We know almost nothing about Joyce's past, it's never discussed in the slightest in the show, which I feel like is purposeful. We don't know Joyce's maiden name; she doesn't change it back after she and Lonnie divorce. Maybe the Duffers are saving Joyce's backstory for s4 (and possibly s5), like I think they are doing with Will and El's connection. Will, El, Hopper, and Joyce were pictured in a series of 4 tweets posted by the stranger writers, hinting to the main 4 storylines for season 4. My analyzation of this tweet here.

I think it's possible that Joyce's storyline this season could also have to do with her past- not just her searching for Hopper- but also more personal information about her. Perhaps we will see flashbacks of younger Joyce and maybe learn about her biological relatives.

Noah also said this would be the darkest season for Will, so this idea of being the grandkid of someone evil or disturbed could fit into that.

Part 2: Creel could be Terry's father/Eleven's grandfather

The only other person I could see potentially having a biological; relation to Victor Creel could be Terry Ives and Eleven, (because it would complete the Star Wars parallel mentioned earlier) but it's a stretch for several reasons, the main one being that Terry and Becky's father Bill Ives, died in a car crash (year unknown).

So for Victor Creel to be Terry's father that either has to be:

Her adoptive father OR

Her mother cheated and led Mr. Ives to believe Terry was his kid but her father is really Victor Creel, and Becky is actually Bill Ives son (which would explain why Becky has no powers)

Right of the bat it's interesting Terry's father's name is Bill. Bill is a nickname for William (Will Byers full name is William), and Billy's a nickname also for William... Hmmm....

Immediately after El is born, Terry is adamant that Brenner stole her child to use as a weapon to fight the commies BECAUSE SHE HAD SPECIAL ABILITIES - and she's completely right about everything. How does Terry know El had powers immediately after she was born? Because she knows she has developed some kind of special abilities from the experiments as well. When El goes to visit her mother in s2, THE LIGHTS FLICKER, just like they do when the upside down is near, but it's not Eleven controlling it. Her Aunt Becky says it's just the wiring, and Eleven responds: "IT'S MAMA. She wants to talk." And then we see Terry's NOSE BLEED, just like El's does when she uses her powers.

Quick side note about El's biological father is Andrew Rich: (It's revealed in the canon novel Suspicious Minds that Andrew Rich is El's father) He was a college student who got expelled from school due to protesting the Nixon address, making him eligible to be drafted in the Vietnam war, and he died in battle. Terry was involved in the Project MKUltra experiments at Hawkins National Laboratory in College, under the direction of Dr. Martin Brenner, but didn't know she was pregnant at the time. Andrew never even knew Terry was pregnant, meaning she was extremely early on in her pregancy at the time he was sent away, not even Terry was aware yet. It's also stated in this book that BRENNER HAD A HAND IN GETTING ANDREW EXPELLED SO HE COULD SEND ANDREW AWAY. The novel states that Brenner has Andrew drafted because he wants to SCARE Terry, to show her how much power he has over her life. There's definitely some history between Terry and Brenner that we don't know about yet.

If Victor Creel is in fact Joyce's father it's interesting that the powers seem to have skipped a generation with Joyce, and also one kid with the Byers, but if Victor Creel is Terry's father, no generations were skipped in passing down powers. ANYWAYS, this is all just theories and speculation since we have no actual concrete reasons to believe he will be related to Joyce or Terry.

Part 3: The possibility that Creel could be involved in Eleven's storyline this season does not rely on them being biologically related.

**One of the filming locations for this season is the Claremont House, which is RUMORED to be Creel's house and also "Vecna's lair" the new monster for s4 (unconfirmed) This is the house the Hawkins group goes into in the ST4 sneak peek, where they see the grandfather clock striking midnight. If that's true, there's a connection between Creel and the upside down and having powers, which could connect Creel to Eleven. The Duffers: "In Hawkins a new horror is beginning to surface, something long buried, something that connects everything". This thing "that connects everything", could be Creel's storyline (his possible connection to the lab/upside down/person in the show), because Creel's storyline also spans all the way back to the 1950's and before that, so there's our "long buried" part most likely.

Robert Englund recently revealed in *an interview* that his character Victor Creel gouges his eyes out, making him unable to see. Englund also mentions what it's like working with Millie Bobby Brown and talks about the first time her met her, he doesn't mention any other cast members in detail like he does Millie.

He's clearly working closely with Millie's character Eleven.

But why? I think Creel could be involved with Eleven getting her powers back, and her reliving her past. Once the government baddies realize El has no powers, they're gonna want them back. If Creel was in fact a test subject, maybe there is some kind of connection between them, Such as Eleven revisiting what happened to her in her past and how that could relate to her getting her powers back.

Another thought I had was that perhaps the gruesome murder he committed is somehow related to something that ends up impacting in Eleven's life.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whatever Victor Creel's storyline is, it will be an important one, and it will carry somewhat into s5, since he will be a returning character. He is not signed as a series regular, but as a recurring character, which means we don't really know to what capacity he will be in s5. It could be flashbacks mostly, or he could have just as big or small of a role.

Source: indie wire

That detail about eyes being gouged out reminds me of fear street 1666 when the townsmen who was sacrificed to the devil becomes possessed and gouges the kids eyes out. Leigh Janick, director of fear street, is married to Ross Duffer. They both direct and make horror/sci-fi themed series about kids in a small town set in the 80's, who fight supernatural evil with a heavy undertone of queer themes, that are even filmed in a lot of the same locations (the mall, the town streets, etc.) I'm not saying it's the same thing, it definitely won't be. But there's so many similarities between ST and Fear Street, I thought I would mention this as another.

[kaypeace21]

Now I'm just thinking about how Will may simply be just an exception to the rule...

Charlie, in firestarter, was BORN with fire powers (Will the wise has fire powers). And she didn't have the signature brain hemorrhages/nose bleeds ( unlike the other lab subjects ) . The army thought this made her dangerous because - no nose bleed meant no limit in powers. She also wasn't an experiment- but her parents were in the 60s.

Of course the psychic nose bleed trope is also fairly common in other stories- and usually indicates the overuse of powers and pushing yourself to dangerous levels !

It's why El/kali's noses don't always bleed when using their powers, but only sometimes - it indicates when they're pushing their powers too far .

The nose bleed is a warning to STOP.

Stranger things comic: 9 (overuses her powers) and her eyes and nose bleed, as she goes into a coma.

It could be why Brenner says El is "sick " and he can "make (her) better". He may be very aware of the side effect . So thank God she lost her powers in s3... because something awful may have happened otherwise. I wonder if brenner actually has a cure?

So all this may be why whenever the byers family does weird stuff ...their noses don't bleed ...cause their threshold is high and they don’t really over do it ,like El. Will possibly creating monsters from his mind is subconscious- aka literally no effort cause it's an accident - why his nose doesn't bleed. Similar to when ,el's nose doesn't bleed when using her powers in minor ways.

If he purposely tried creating stuff... who knows. But he could be simply an exception to the rule - like Charlie .

Only say this cause some of the s4 movies make me suspicious of whether lonnie was an experiment for the Vietnam war. Because not only is this a plot point in s4 films, but the hopper novel mentions vietnam soldiers were experiemented on in order to get powers too. Not to mention mkultra targeted not only college volunteers (like terry). But, women who wanted treatment for anxiety (who didnt even know they were in mkultra) . And we know joyce suffers with anxiety pre s1. Link here.

Acquired powers vs natural powers? (Mini-theory)

Given all the comic refs in st. And the whole mutants vs mutate stuff in most comics. I wonder if we see something like this.

Mutants are born with powers while mutates were given powers via experimentation and other means. And generally mutants are much more feared.

Dustin actually questions if El is naturally an xmen (aka a mutant born with powers) or more like green lantern (aka her powers were given to her).

Given Will wanting the xmen comic in s1e1 & Max showing el a green lantern comic in s3. We may have our answer- especially given Will's obsession with fantasy like wizards (instead of scifi). Aka El is an experiment whose powers are sci-fi in origin (mutate) but Will is a wizard and his powers originate in fantasy like d&d (mutant).

So if Will was born with his powers unlike El. And El has her powers because of experimentation done to her and her mother.

It begs the question if people who are naturally born with powers ... don't bleed from their nose?For example Firestarter is said to be inspo for El.

Firestarter film/book had experiments (given powers by a government- run lab). The kids got their powers because their parents were part of a government run experiment (like terry). The experiements can drain their battery/powers like el, and even get mini brain hemorrhages causing them to bleed out of their nose when overusing their powers.

Firestarter (created psychics) vs El

In firestarter almost all of the psychics had the signature nose bleed (aka brain hemorrhages). And only a few rare individuals didn't have this negative side effect.

Makes you wonder if some people are simply born with powers (Will) vs being experimented on to get powers (El)- in the st universe . And if natural born mutants don't have the cons- of humans being pushed to their limits via experimentation.

Aka experiments are pushing their body's natural limits by these artifical powers, and hurting themselves in the process,causing brain hemorrhages. Whenever el's nose bleeds she is overexerting herself and causing her body damage - possibly brain hemorrages.

Since her body wasn't naturally made to have powers, her body can't sustain the powers she was given. This could explain why sometimes her ears also bleed, or she faints/ falls after using her powers . El is overusing her powers and causing "brain damage" like mike suggested in s3.

"In firestarter,  A result of being injected with Lot Six was manifesting psychic abilities.It is revealed that the powers are self-destructive; prolonged use of these powers caused severe headaches, nosebleeds and brain hemorrhages.Because of this, the government agency that sponsored the original dr*g trials, regarded the experiment as a failure, with one member stating that humans were simply not evolved yet to make full use of the dr*g and the abilities that came with it."

[chirpsythismorning]

wait you're not saying you think Jonathan might be Hoppers son too, right? hooking up Twice and having Two sets of kids with each other multiple years apart? sounds a bit too out there and something that would have Had to have come up before if they want it to be satisfying, because there'd be no way either of them could be in the dark about it

Hey, I get it! I was also skeptical myself (I still am)!

To be fair, when it comes to Jonathan, I'm still not 100% certain Hopper is his dad. But tbh, the fact that there is so much sufficient evidence he is Will and El's, along with some notable mentions pointing to the possibility he could be Jon's too, I'm intrigued. Like, they might as well go all out if they're going this route anyways?

No, I would not say it's explicit by any means, though I also wouldn't say with certainty that it's never come up at all either?

I also want to say that it took me a while to get here. I didn't just believe it all at once, it took going through different revelations and correcting theories based on things not adding up, while in contrast other things made a lot more sense for the overall story. And that is bound to continue happening regardless of what I think at this moment!

Initially, after stumbling across twelvegate, I wasn't even sure Will and El were twins? It wasn't until AGAIN rewatching certain scenes and seeing all this twin imagery that made it hard not to consider?

Though even so, at the time I was still pretty set on the assumption that they couldn't have the same mom, with Joyce obviously being Will's mom and Terry obviously being El's mom (right...). And so I thought maybe they could just be half-siblings? Sharing the same dad (Lonnie) and conceived around roughly the same time? Estranged siblings, only mere days/weeks apart? And so like, might as well be twins? I guess?

This was a pretty easy conclusion to come to because there was already a decent amount of evidence from s1 pointing to Lonnie potentially being a volunteer for MKUltra, alongside Terry.

I made a shit-post about this a while back. In case you want to see all the images related to this, feel free to check that out. I'll try to summarize it here quickly though, bc it's probably too vague there with the images alone:

When Hopper and Cal are at the Library in s1, we're shown quick snapshots of newspaper clippings related to Hawkins Lab, with one picture being the volunteers that participated in MKUltra. Though, the first time we see it, it's a negative image. So there was almost this anonymity to it, making you wonder if there was something that might have warranted them not wanting us to see it fully? At least not right away, for some reason? And I think this actually might have been because the effect made it appear like most of the participants were likely women, bc they all had long hair. But then, when we're finally shown the original picture near the end of the episode, right before they let us see it, Hopper says Forget about her (referring to Terry), only to reveal it was actually a man with long hair at the forefront, with Terry in the back to the right... And honestly, this guy in the middle does resemble Lonnie quite a bit. Like, if they had to cast someone to play a late 20's/early 30's Lonnie, this guy would fit the bill.

In that same scene, we also got an article that specifically mentioned individuals that were already addicts/alcoholics being chosen as participants for the experiments, and I do think Lonnie could arguably fit there.

Then there's the multiple comments about Lonnie dating women younger than him, and that might very well have aligned perfectly with Terry's sister saying she had joined MKUltra in college as a way to get extra cash (he would have still been roughly 10 years older than her, assuming she was in here early 20s at the oldest). It's also implied quite a bit that he's not exactly faithful, so this possibility of him cheating on Joyce with Terry while volunteering at the lab, could explain Will and El being practically the same age and with the same dad.

Basically this led me down a rabbit hole that had me genuinely considering the possibility that Will and El are blood related and that Lonnie could be their father, with El being born in the lab with Terry, while Will was born on the outside in Hawkins with Joyce. And I guess this could also fit the whole Will being the control group/El being the experiment group theory? Bc the lab probably found out about Will's existence after he was already born outside of the lab. Maybe they realized this would be a perfect opportunity to compare one kid in the lab vs. one out of the lab?

There are some other notable moments from s1 that read as potential evidence to me. My favorite though probably has to be this one, bc it just screams Willel twins:

This next one is so random, but here we have a transition between El in Mike's basement, followed directly by Lonnie taking a shower at the Byers...

Though, when it comes to Lonnie, he kind of falls off after s1? We get a few mentions of him here and there, but as time goes on, it's less and less. The story as a whole hasn't really prioritized him in the narrative, beyond the first two seasons (mostly the first), which would just make the revelation that he's been their father all along less impactful/satisfying if I'm being honest? Not saying he won't return in a vision or something, because I do think that's likely for s5. And yet arguably they've put more effort into connecting Terry to the overall story's narrative throughout the series than they have for Lonnie. And if you've read my previous posts about Terry, you know that's not saying much...

Which just makes you think, if they're putting all this time into prioritizing Hopper and Joyce, from the very beginning and even until now in s4, then that's probably for a reason? Remember this is a show that wants to encourage its viewers to rewatch it as an overall story once it's all finished. Emphasis on 'be kind, rewind'.

What I think makes this whole time trickery business interesting in regards to this 'crack' theory though, specifically within the context of Back to the Future, is that the plot of the movie was literally centered around Marty going to the past (1955), unintentionally preventing his parents from getting together, which in turn meant he was on track to cease to exist.

Although Marty thought he fixed it, Back to the Future Part II follows a similar storyline. Only this time, because of Marty's actions in the first film, another timeline has emerged that has lead to him, yes technically still existing in 1985 bc his parents still got together like they did in the original timeline, though unfortunately somewhere along the way, in the 70's George McFly died, which lead to a timeline contrasting the original 1985 timeline we were presented with in the first film, which looked like a literal nightmare, with Biff having taken the place of their father.

Which instantly reminds me of another certain show's incoming 1950's timeline, which is said to connect the overall story's s5 revelations with the origin story of Joyce and Hopper...

While I do agree, at a glance it's confusing to presume that not only Will and El are Hopper's kids but also Jonathan, I would argue it's just as confusing that somewhere along the way they got together, while Joyce was still married to Lonnie? If that was the case, I think the story would supplied a lot more evidence of Joyce herself knowing there is a big chance that Will could be his. But instead they behave as though they haven't talked since high school?

So... basically, regardless of time trickery or not, their memories are shot.

Which brings us to the most important piece of the puzzle:

Terrygate.

I am now 99.99% sure Terry is not El's 'Mama'... (Very strong evidence explored here and here)

And so that obviously begs to question, if Terry isn't El's mom? Then who is?

Joyce. It has to be Joyce.

And so that means that us just assuming Lonnie could be both of their dads, and with us now also assuming Joyce is their mom.. Then, maybe they are twins? Maybe all of that twin imagery connected to Will and El did count for something?

If you've read the posts about Terry not being El's mom, then you know that a lot of El's visions provided by Terry have resurfaced in different variations ever since she met her in 2x05, all the way up to now in 4x09. Not only that, but the references to 008 (Kali) in most of these flashbacks, including her flashbacks of the massacre (provided by Brenner), are incredibly suspicious. And the fact that we've got a woman doctor matching the nail polish of Terry in El's memory of her birth (one where you can hear two babies crying, I might add...) could very well be an indication that the memories she has, are tampered with...

You might be thinking NO! NO WAY! And I'm sorry but, Yes. Yes way.

Because this was in large part the main goal of MKUltra, from the very beginning. No, but like literally.

As I'm posting this, @erikiara80 posted this and... It makes so much fucking sense.

Just like El, Hopper has also been experiencing some PTSD like memory flashes throughout the series. We get the same like 10 snippets of memories. They keep reminding us with these snapshots that are super cryptic, only leaving us with more questions than answers.

Not only that, but David has said for YEARS that Sarah's death might not be what it seems, and basically alluded to the fact that she could have some sort of connection to the lab. Hopper literally experiences these flashbacks while trying to find Will in the UD, after discovering Will's tiger in Castle Byers at the end of s1 (the same stuffed animal Sarah, Will and El all have).

Not only that, but it's clear based on the setting of where Hopper is during the flashbacks with his daughter in the hospital, that he is quite literally at Hawkins lab... And so what the hell? He doesn't remember that? Why? Wouldn't that be an important detail for him to bring up and mention at some point? Wouldn't they want to inform us of his history at the lab, assuming he had one there? Wouldn't he be more skeptical about having Will go there if he had such a traumatic experience there? Unless he doesn't remember it being Hawkins lab? Unless those cheap ass memories are not the full truth in the first place??

I mean why else do these flashbacks read like forced memories more than actual reality?

Also, I find it interesting that Hopper left Hawkins right around the time before Will was born, to live in New York with his newborn and his wife (NYU is also Jon's dream school, since he was 6... Interesting).

And so what I think is going on here, is time trickery and false memories. An og timeline and a new one (or more...).

This means that Joyce, Jim, Jonathan, Will and El were probably a family at one point. But they've basically been ripped apart, losing each other (their memories of each other), leading them to believe that they are not family based on new memories in place, blocking the old memories.

The whole thing with Back to the Future is that those 3 kids can ONLY exist if their parents get together. This means that if Biff had somehow ended up preventing George and Lorraine from ever having kids like in the original timeline, then Marty and his siblings would cease to exist, as it wouldn't be possible for Biff and Lorraine to have the same kids as George and Lorraine ie. genetics.

And so this begs to question if perhaps Henry or the lab (assuming they successfully cracked time travel, which was one of the goals of MKUltra...), benefited much greater from Will and El and the entire family not knowing about their true relationship, and yet here they are experiencing the most intense bouts of deja vu I've ever seen.

This scene right here with Hopper? Still 99% unexplained. Why is this dude experiencing borderline dad deja vu, encased in a rainbow, witnessing the lights flicker firsthand (unlike Callahan, who upon arriving, the lights turn back on)? And we're all just nodding our heads like it's nothing, despite having no clue what is going on? This is the pilot? And we don't know what happened here??

Also I wanna remind ya'll that Hopper was seen mixing alcohol with Tuinal in s1, though he did stop after having suspicions he was being watched. And so presumably, since his 'daughters death' he has been highly medicated, mixing drugs/booze... not great for a persons memory... like at all (especially if it was intentionally being done to him by the lab to hide the truth from him).

This is obviously too iconic not to mention. But this basically supports the theory, that despite the this whole family being clueless about their true connection, we're still acknowledging the fact that Joyce and Hopper have indeed been intimate at some point. And here with Will's name being thrown in the middle, followed by That a yeah or? And so what's happening subtly is, Will's name being used as proof that yes. they have... aka Will existing is the proof.

Oh would you look here! Terry likes reading books on Bonsai trees? Wait, didn't Brenner open s4 as a Bonsai tree enthusiast? Also notice what Hopper at the end there? What did I tell you about that dad deja-vu It's almost like subconsciously he knows deep down that there is a connection to Terry and Brenner.

Seems like Terry knows something that someone doesn't want Joyce and Hopper (or the audience) to know... Almost like if she could actually respond to them, she would debunk/correct their assumptions. And so because she can't, the characters (and the audience) believe what is on the surface being told to us, while being forced to rewatch El's memories connected to her mother + Hopper's memories connected to his daughter, over and over in flashes... This is because despite what they're telling us, they're SHOWING us that there's obviously something we're still missing...

Hopper seeing Will's lion stuffed animal in castle byers and it triggering flashbacks of his daughter, n a gown that has clowns on it, matching the clowns in the baby nursery... Like, I don't?.. I just don't trust it? It reads as a mixture of true and false, just like El's flashbacks from Terry and the lab do.

And I'm sorry but, Owens? Oh, he knows something for sure... And there's that dad deja vu again. DUDE KNOWS SOMETHING IS OFF! HE KNOWS!

Also, I am a byler, and so I do agree in part with the byler implications fans have speculated over the years for El and Will's relationship being sort of pushed to obscurity, to represent Mike's struggle between his feelings for both of them...

But, lets really think about this for a second... Girl and boy, who are mirrored to each other for most of s1-2, don't even get properly introduced ever? Like it's just odd that it happens that way. It almost feels like they knew an introduction wouldn't have done them justice? It wouldn't have felt right for these characters, assuming we will all be going back and rewatching from a lens of them being twins and not knowing it? It also makes it a lot more interesting seeing them approach it in this way, where they're quite literally avoiding interactions between them at all costs, only for them to end up being siblings the moment they do start a real connection?

The 2 babies in between them... The keys... This has been a recurring theme since the first fucking episode ya'll, connecting all of these characters? Like, do I even have to say it..?

Will and John sitting in front of the Lucky Charms... Followed by El having deja vu, inspired by the Rainbow/Upside down horse shoe... Remind you of anyone?

Father of (micro)biology behind El, whose looking at Will, both with their matching wrist accessories (also matching Hopper's blue bracelet/watch being focused on for his introduction in the series pilot), and also with a literal Hopper diorama in front of her/between them...

Oh, and just this arguably unnecessary line, that barely even made sense in the context of the scene it was in...? Usually when this happens, it could be a hint that the whole reason it falls flat in the moment is because the true meaning lies somewhere else in a different moment, still yet to be revealed.

And then you know, there's this...

With all of that in mind, these tiny moments in particular, potentially connecting Jonathan's role in all of this, definitely have me side eying...

What part is he talking about? Part I or Part II? What timeline are we in again???!!

Is it explicit and in your face? No. Definitely not. BUT it's there and it arguably holds more weight consistently in terms of these characters all being tied together super intricately and also prioritized more than any of the other supposed parents, since the very beginning... and that seems like something that would make this revelation so fucking crazy, quite literally going full circle just like the Duffers and the actors have been saying the ending indeed accomplishes...

I am subject to be wrong about any and all of this! I am human! And I will be okay if I am wrong! Now, will you be okay with others theorizing? That is up to you my friend!

I do think that this theory does give off the vibe of the whole curtain metaphor in s2 though? How those willing to take a look behind the curtain aka consider byler for example, are going to be the same people that are going to be able to pick up on other things beyond that. Because if you're not willing to consider byler, that means you're going to have to subscribe to the claim that details don't matter, and therefore you're essentially blocking yourself from looking at anything deeper than surface level. Being willing to even look behind the curtain at all, would open the curtain behind that curtain. and the curtain behind that one, and I think behind byler, is Willel. It's like a plot twist within a plot twist. And same goes for Jopper being their biological parents.

Whether or not Jonathan is included in that, along with all of this theory as a whole, remains to be seen!

[chirpsythismorning]

Willel truther anon here. Scary thought. Not Willel twin AND Vecna's children. Twins with powers and... and their dad is the dark wizard? I know this show is different but that plot twist would be TOO much Star Wars!! I'm all for Willel twin, Jane and William Hopper. Please, Duffers, be original🤞

Yeah I'm not a henry father truther, I think that the evidence pointing to it comes off as misdirect in the same way milkvan does. They gave them some superficial queues, and a lot of people picked up on it.

Henry's got like 3 identities rn as it is though. I do think that he is 100% due for backstory in s5 that will get the audience to sympathize with him heavily, and give us answers into how the lab's understanding of what's going down in the present, all goes back to the origins of the lab itself, specifically MKUltra and then the rainbow room. I also think it's possible that his familial relation is a lot more likely tied to the Wheelers, than the Byers or the Wheelers AND the Byers. I just don't see a point in connecting El to that as well along with Mike (beyond the cousin irony), regardless of Will being her twin brother or not.

Like this dude rn who is referred to as Henry/001/Vecna does not need the addtion of 3+ more titles. We have time for Henry in s5 and I do think he'll play a big role, but he's not the answer to every single revelation, with a different tie to all of them by blood.

There's too many signs pointing to Terry not being El's mother. And that means their mom has to be Joyce. And while I could consider Lonnie, there's a lot of signs he's also not quite what he seems and I think that just like Terry, he's a dead end. Terry was likely an ally in the past, and Lonnie was likely... not. I think he was an MKUltra experiment that was willing to lie and go along with anything for money.

And with them making a point to focus on Joyce and Hopper in the prequel, both 17 and presumably also alongside Lonnie and even Henry who was 13 at the time... It's very much giving Back to the Future shenanigans, ie. George and Lorraine vs. Biff fucking shit up in the bad timeline, taking the place of George their father... And yet, he's not actually their father....

I feel the need to make clear that, it's too confusing to have the same set of twins or even one child, be birthed from different parents, in different timelines. While I can acknowledge infinite universes exist hypothetically, doing something like this, by having El and Will be twins in one timeline and not in another and with different parents also, would go way beyond suspension of disbelief.

In Back to the Future, if the parents didn't kiss at the dance in 56', the kids weren't born, it was that simple! Marty and his siblings started to disappear in a photo together, knowing they would cease to exist by the end of the night if it didn't happen. And even though they do make it through, in the sequel directly following, Biff has taken their father's place. Now, that doesn't mean that Lorraine and Biff managed to birth the exact same kids as George and Lorraine in a different timeline. All that happened was, somewhere along the way, things got mixed up. And with the implications of MKUltra and Henry having ahold of time powers in some capacity, I think it would be easy to make a family or even a whole town cursed and tricked into believing anything (reminder this town is being listened to and referred to as being cursed A LOT...).

I could see maybe 1-2 more huge arcs for him. I do think that he had a a similar introduction to Joyce and Hopper into the lab (I talk about how I think they were involved here), but it's likely in his case, the lab used conversion therapy to take advantage of him and from his family that wanted to fix him bc he was 'broken'. I think it's likely his backstory is that he got out of there in his late teens early twenties, but ended up back in after a vulnerable experience in the world, and with Brenner and the lab taking advantage of it, luring him back in AGAIN.

However, I don't think this kid we focused on at 13 in s4, and who wer'e presumably going to see again at 13 in the prequel, is going to be revealed in s5 through 60s flashbacks of him turning into a sperm downer to birth a dozen kids, nor even just Will and El. I think he relates to them for obvious reasons being they are lab kids who think they are a mistake (queerness/otherness), and that was obviously being taken advantage of.

I guess I'd have to see what happens in the prequel to decide for sure how I feel. The prequel wasn't even announced when these theories started popping up after twelvegate. And so to have Joyce and Hopper be revealed as a focus was a little bit ironic to me.

It's canon which means that there are bound to be things that happen that have the potential to make us rethink/re-understand certain things we might have assumed up this point.

I won't rule out anything bc like yeah they could pull a Luke I am your father card (not literally, but you know what I mean). And yet, I do think there's heavy evidence for Hopper and Joyce and Will and El and Jon and them being watched from the very first episode, which feels more substantial to me given how this will all presumably go back to s1 and answering questions they left unanswered back then ie, Hopper in the shed lights flickering??

If the ending being beautiful and surprising was about found family, then that wouldn't exactly make sense, since every season has given us that impression, with it being obvious by s3-4. And so that's not surprising, as they've already been found-family in canon for years.

Whereas a family being torn apart by a lab via mind control and time implications, and seeing how despite that they still kept finding their way back to each other, that's beautiful and surprising to me.

I do think it gives Star Wars (+1000 other movie inspirations), but not entirely in the sense that it's going to carry out the most cliche trope connected to SW.

Seriously, I just rewatched Toy Story 2 the other day and that Buzz scene with his dad near the end had me dreading the prospects of Henry being El's dad. The I am your father revelation is treated like a big joke. It's like the first thing you think of when you think about Star Wars. The twin aspect on the other hand, is something that still causes a lot of debate and has created this sort of hilariously confusing element to the story, which ST, by using Star Wars as inspiration from the very beginning, means they knew about that twin revelation, and were able to subtly joke about it from the very beginning, making it even more epic in ST case than it ever was for SW.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.! Not sure when the prequel will for sure be available to the public, but there's bound to be a few important revelations necessary to be ready for what's about to come next.

[willel]

Some people think Will and El were born with their powers, some think they acquired them. What do you think?

I think everyone who has powers were born with them. I'm too lazy to go back into my archives, but I'll try to be brief (I know it's gonna be long anyway)

A lot of Stranger Things is based on the real government conspiracy The Montauk Project. I tried to read some of it myself but it's pretty insane with some questionable things in there so I'll skip over the greater details and get to the point.

The people in charge of the Montauk Project supposedly targeted children (especially boys) who got their requirements. It is thought that you just have the proper genetics AND you need a trigger. Those triggers included drugs and/or trauma. Also, genetics alone doesn't guarantee you will have powers, it's just a possibility. A flip of a coin. The conspiracy mentions a dude (who has powers) with two sons, the older one didn't get powers but the younger one did.

So let's look at the characters with confirmed powers so far:

Terry - Has a "crazy aunt Shirley" who may also be sensitive. Joined MKUltra and was given various drugs. Confirmed has some weak form of telekinesis and telepathy.

Kali - Was kidnapped when she was 5 years old, like many of the lab children, was physically and mentally tortured in the lab. We don't know anything about her parents. Has illusion and telepathy

Henry - was outcasted and emotionally stunted from a young age, apparently has a memory from his past that activated his powers. Suspiciously, his mother and father could sense something was wrong, his mom actually sensed it was him. Has a long list of abilities

El - her mother has abilities and was being experimented on while pregnant. Has been very tortured physically and mentally in and out of the lab. Has a longgg lost of abilities.

We could go over most of the lab kids, but it'd just be repeatative. They, in my opinion, we're all born with it. They have all suffered great trauma or have been drugged repeatedly over and extended amount of time.

So let's look at the two characters I think may have powers. Joyce and Will.

Yes, I think Joyce has powers. I think she has a supernaturally correct and specific intuition. Every season, without fail, she has been right. And not like Nancy right, like "Yes these lights are definitely Will talking to me without a doubt. Yes, I am 100% sure my son's vision are real and not in his head. Yes, I'm 100% sure these magnets are because the government is doing experiments. Yes, I am 100% sure Hopper is alive even though everyone else got vaporized.

Like "crazy aunt Shirley" El's aunt mentioned, Joyce seems to have the same situation in her own family. Lonnie brings up Joyce's aunt Darlene or something like that, seemingly impling that she's "crazy".

That said, I don't think has has as much trauma as the lab kids, nor did she go under intense bouts of drugs like Terry. I don't think anything more can come from Joyce except her intuition. It reminds me a lot of Henry's aprents sensing something was wrong and Henry's mom figuring out the cause was Henry himself.

"Yes the reason why I'm having these nightmares and seeing horrible visions is because my son has super powers. That makes sense."

And now we're onto the second candidate, Will himself. Like the lab kids, he fits both criteria. If Joyce and Joyce's aunt Darlene are sensitive folk, then he is too.

Then we have the trauma and drugs. I'm not sure about the drugs (they were injecting him with something at the lab in S2E1, before the sedatives. The framing of the shot is identical to the shots in season 4 when they are injecting El with something before she enters NINA)

Will ha plenty of trauma and painful memories before and after the lab. He lives in an unstable household whole Lonnie was present and then was abandoned by him. Not to mention being bullied and at home for his presumed sexuality (which he later realized is true). And from November 6th 1983 onward, his life has been on a downward spiral of pain physically and mentally.

In my opinion, Will fits all the criteria to awaken any latent abilities he may have.

Prior to season 4, I thought the lab was integral in making El and Kali as powerful as they were, but after meeting Henry I'm second guessing that assumption.

I don't think the lab does shit for those kids. I mean, I guess it pushes them to their limits, ultimately making them more powerful, but that's about it?

So my assumption that Will couldn't possibly be as powerful as El or Kali may be wrong too. Still don't think he's gonna be whipping helicopters out of the air, but there are other measures for how powerful one can be.

So yeah. That's my opinion.

[willel]

Hi, I had this random thought but do you think that El could/should have some drug-related after effects? As we know, she was drugged by sedatives during s4, some other stuff was given to her when she was entering NINA tank (I don't think it was sedatives at this point. I think Terry was given LSD during her time in the lab as a volunteer? If yes, then maybe El was given it as well) and I'm pretty sure they were giving her sedatives/other drugs in the past to keep her calm/enhance her powers.

Hm, not sure. Guess I'll have to look up the after effects of LSD.

So yeah, it's very likely they were giving her LSD. Apparently, LSD is not addictive though, and hasn't been studied enough to determine more long term effects. Here are a few though

So to be honest, El probably already has HPPD. She's very prone to just, unwillingly and unwillingly recalling stuff that has happened to her. It happens a lot in season 1 in the form of flashbacks as we fill in her backstory.

Hm........... hm hm hm...... when I really think about it, they don't do flashback sequences much with characters other than El. And Will sometimes. (they were also injecting him with stuff in the lab... but would Joyce really let her inject her son with LSD????)

El has a lot in all seasons.

Joyce has at least two in season 1. Then she has PTSD flashes after season 2.

Hopper had a flashback to his daughter while in the Upside Down and that's about it.

Jonathan has one about Will in season 1 on his drive to Lonnie's.

Mike.... hm..... can't think of any. Can't think of any for Lucas.... or Dustin. None for Steve... Erica... Robin... nope.

Will... well he's a complicated one. Some of them are True Sight and some of them are PTSD. But he definitely has flashes of stuff. We didn't SEE any in season 4, but based on how terrified he sounded when telling Mike about Vecna, he's definitely been having them since he got back to Hawkins.

ANYWAY, BACK ON TOPIC. I think we're already seeing the long term effects of LSD on El in the form of her so easily reexperiencing her memories whether she wills it or no. The other symptoms like restlessness, agitation, rapid blood pressure change, and loss of coordination fits her too.

[erikiara80]

Don't leave this in the tags! Yes, Terry 'mama it's me Jane I'm home' 'no' Ives has the same vibes as Lonnie 'I didn't do it' Byers

#lonnie byers#will byers#lonnie. you are NOT the father!#not the father of will at least#he has nothing to do with this. trust me!#dido joyce#he's a red herring folks#just like terry 'hey mama it's me jane i'm home' 'no.' ives#lonnie (i didn't do it!) terry (no)...#are you seeing a trend here?#the way they treat lonnie like a one off not even worthy of rehashing outside of maybe 1 or 2 mentions post s2#the way they treat terry's scenes like an easter egg hunt still yet to be solved all going back to el's birth...#you'd think if lonnie and terry were actually will/el's parents they would be given more importance to the narrative than they are#and there's probably a reason for that...#bc we are being led astray!#hopper peaking in the corner prominently on the poster with the focus on lonnie from that scene saying he has nothing to do with this...#idk i feel like hopper might have something to do with this...#willel twins#willel literal twins#joyce + hopper = willel twins

Lonnie's last appearance in The First Shadow [source]:

"It wasn't me. I didn't do it!"

Lonnie's first mention in the series (1x01)

Which reminded me...

Kate Trefry talking about The First Shadow [source]:

We always try to go back to the original pilot and say, what more is there to learn about this moment?

Based on the leaks out there, there is seems to be very few Lonnie scenes in the play, and yet it also sounds like he's gotta be the most consistently portrayed when compared to his character on the show, more than anyone else, even down to this very line, this concept of him having nothing to do with it. This tells me that with what little they were willing to give, there is a major significance to it and what it means for his character and for his role in the story overall.

So what is it? What does Lonnie have nothing to do with?

In s1, it's about Will and his disappearance. But clearly it's more than that because they made a point to have Joyce say it twice, to trust her on this.

If Lonnie has nothing to do with this, and that's a theme they want to carry out in this play in a way that quite literally juxtaposes his first mention on the show, taking us back to the very beginning, what does that mean?

Idk. Maybe it just means he has nothing to do with this. Maybe it means he has nothing to do with Will more than we realize...

It's giving