#like yeah this is in response to fanon versions of all of them

[gonnalosemydougdimmadomedamnmind]

Literally I am so sick of whore dick grayson, himbo dick grayson, fandom bicycle dick grayson, like yall really saw that dick is the canonical pretty boy with the nice ass and then proceeded to give him 'bottom' as a personality and just ran away with that. Dick is not a pretty idiot that loves having sex and only cares about his appearance, for fucks sake. He doesnt need to be rescued by jason todd of all people, who literally willingly burned all his bridges and can't even save himself, or wally west, frankly, who is one of his best friends but not the one he gets emotionally vulnerable with.

He doesn't do casual sex, at all. He needs an emotional connection first, is it so hard to believe that an attractive person actually wants to connect to someone instead of fucking them? Or fucking their problems away? Is it really so hard to believe that an attractive person can also be intelligent? Can also be kind? Can also be selfless? Can also take care of themself? Can also be a functioning adult? Can also be mature? Can also be damn fucking good at their job? Have yall ever met a real person before?

Dick is Romani and one of the most well known stereotypes about the Romani people are that they are like magically alluring people that can't keep their hands to themselves or that they're like thieving, dumb, dirty animals and what did yall reduce Dick down to? An overly emotional, stupid, pretty slut that acts without thinking.

You know just because something is racist in canon doesn't mean you have to take that and amplify it by 100 in fanon, right? Like the shit I have seen on this website alone, the takes that just won't stop, are literally so much more racist than anything you would ever find in canon. And good God, it's not like you have to make his race the forefront of his character! It's not! No one's is, that would be bad characterization. But should his being Romani affect the way you portray him? Should there be certain things you can be considerate about? Should being Romani be part of his identity? Uh, yeah.

And also. Should you maybe consider what he's actually like in canon to characterize him within fandom spaces? Uh, YEAH.

Dick Grayson is a romantic at heart, is extremely private, and cherishes the emotional connections he has with people. He is a good person because he chooses to do good things. He wants to help people! He's literally a genius, I mean this in every possible sense, academically, physically, emotionally, strategically, picking up and mastering skills with ease, being a detective... that doesn't mean he doesn't have problems. He's an extreme workaholic. He will never talk about his own problems to his friends or family, just the occasional therapist. He's so good with people, he knows exactly how to manipulate situations into his favor, to his own detriment. He will never give up on you, to his own detriment. He bottles up his emotions deeply, and yes, occasionally he does explode. He has a guilt complex the size of the sun. Everything is his fault in his head, Everything. He will accept the blame for anything, for his own rape even, because he's Dick Grayson and hey, he should've known, he should've been able to tell. (This is specifically talking about Miriam).

Everyone puts him on a pedastal because he's the guy that can actually pull off the impossible and no one but him realizes just how high that pedastal is. Bruce wants to be him, thinks there is literally no one better than him, no one who could soar higher than him, the ideal hero. His hero.

Goddamn Superman thinks he's the one person in the universe that will almost always do the right thing at the right time across every universe. And I don't mean that he will BE the right person at the right time, I mean he will DO the right thing at the right time, because Dick believes in the power of choices! Of free will! He could do bad things just as easily as the people around him, he could choose to be cruel because that is literally so. much. easier.

But he doesn't.

Almost ever.

In nearly every universe.

Do you know how much pressure that is? He drowns under the weight of his own perfection, truly. He can't fail.

He can't fail.

Isn't that so unbearably sad? You spend your whole life reassuring other people that everyone gets second chances, and that you are not your worst moment, and that you deserve compassion even at your most despicable, and that everyone makes mistakes, and sometimes things are inevitable, and sometimes all you can give is your best.

You are the only person. Who does not receive that same mercy.

He can't fail.

His family treats him as an emotional punching bag, sometimes a physical punching bag. Occasionally, so will his friends. It's hard to see the person behind the legend. And Dick's legend is truly titanic in proportions... the first child hero. No one could've done it, if he hadnt done it first. If he hadnt done it so exceedingly well. And then he had his own hero team. And then he became his own hero, again. And then he had his own city. He did it all first. The literal trailblazer, lighting the way for everyone else, not letting anyone stop him. Not waiting for anything. A force of nature.

Everyone wants to be him, be liked by him, be acknowledged by him. They all rely on him, the linchpin of a universe. Dick really is like the sun. Warm, encouraging, revitalizing. He is the light in the dark, illuminating and intense. Focused. Powerful. And they are all caught in his gravitational field.

Dick is so much more interesting than anything fandom will spare him. God, what I would give for fandom to give even a 10th of actual attention and critical thought to him or any other poc character in this franchise, that fandom gives to the white characters. I mean, we've all seen it. The narrative fabricated through lies that 95% of fandom takes as gospel because they refuse to engage with canon or simply don't care because it favors their favorite characters. In case you don't know, I am in fact talking about fanon jason todd- aka meaner Dick Grayson with Helena Bertinelli's lifestyle and fanon tim drake- aka less athletic, more victimized Dick Grayson. The white fandom darlings, extremely woobified, you know how it is. Sigh.

[ghost-bxrd]

Been mulling over Titans Tower and it's really interesting to me how it's treated in Fanon as compared to how the events transpired in canon. it's a really fun topic! Honestly, the original writing in canon is DOGSHITE but not for the usual reasons people cite.

Here's what does make sense in canon but is largely ignored (this is using canon characterisations at the time): First, it's all about the whole Titans team, not just Tim. They really downplay his death a lot, did not put up his statue or honour him whatsoever. Plus the hero community tends to victim-blame him a fuckton. Jason is showing that his death could've happened to anyone. Second, Tim and Jason are just two yearish apart—Jay died at 15, Tim becomes Robin at 13—so those Titans are more like his colleagues than anything else; he's not some older guy beating the shit outta them. Third, Tim’s indifference to Jason's comments and his cockiness about being a better Robin are pretty on-brand for his early portrayal as Robin. (I think fanon Tim derives a lot of his characteristics from his Red Robin run, which is valid as well! But here in particular we have Robin Tim... who... was... uh... a bit of an asshole when he was written back then and the HUBRIS on that man? Immaculate.)

What still makes this absolutely dog shit is the dialogue and how Jason is pouring his heart out to someone who he doesn't really care about. Jason... just doesn't operate this way... Why's he trauma dumping on... tim... ???? It makes no sense whatsoever because Jason really is someone who'd keep those vulnerabilities to himself. Why would he open up to... CANON TIM??? He makes scathing remarks when faced with Bruce and Dick because he knows the knife twists then and at he cares about their reaction. But not tim ????? Canon UTRH doesn't even mention Tim ????? ???? So in the end it's still shit imo.

I also find the use of Pit Madness in fanon super interesting, despite it not being canon. It's used to propel the Titan's Tower incident, which fascinates me because it shows how people are willing to work around its flaws to maintain consistent characterization in their works (which is !!! cool !!)

It's so interesting how many other incidents that do occur in canon aren't as well known as this one aren't given much thought. But this one is and it's interesting how people try to work with it regardless of it's flaws originally!

I'd really love to hear your opinions about it and how flexible you are with the Titans tower incident! :) How do you work with your Jason and your Tim? because it's cool to hear your analysis etc etc

Hooo boi okay i was planning on replying to this earlier but this deserves a proper, thought out response (which I’m shite at but I’m trying here. Words are hard.)

For one, I wholeheartedly agree with the whole trauma dumping thing.

Obviously we all have different tastes in media and I know there are quite a few people who enjoyed the confrontation with Tim, which is totally fine, but personally… yeah, not my thing.

I got into the Batman/batfam fandom via fanfic, so my first introduction was some version of Titans Tower I believe. I was super intrigued by the characters and the tidbits of lore sprinkled throughout that I immediately began reading up on them and digging through the internet for more info and background story on them. Which then quickly evolved into the part where my adoration for Jason’s character began and a short phase where I absolutely despised early canon Tim.

Like— all the victim blaming. He seriously couldn’t mention Jason without adding something derogatory about getting himself killed, which sat so, so wrong with me. Not to mention the Titans just accepting a new Robin right off the bat and joining in blaming Jason for his own death. I’m pretty sure that was the point where I swore off comics for a long while and decided to live off fanon 🤣

And then Jason’s part in the Titans Tower incident. I think part of how weird the canon event was is due in part to how the writers fumbled to depict trauma? Or maybe they just outright hated him because I know a lot of people back then despised Jason and his run as Robin.

Whatever the reason, I think I genuinely cringed when he revealed the Walmart Robin costume he was wearing. And then the trauma dumping.

Jason is smart enough to know Tim wouldn’t care about his grievances. I mean- dude just broke into his hideout to attack him, I think Tim’s about as done with Jason as with any other criminals, regardless of his past. And all that is proven by Tim fighting back tooth and nail without pause. He doesn’t even react to the accusation of the missing statue in Jason’s honor. Like, he genuinely doesn’t seem to care. And why would he? They don’t know each other.

And yeah maybe he was trying to beat some sense into Tim (which is still wrong but— vigilantes I guess? Idk) and make him quit Robin, but Jason’s also smart enough to know that Robins don’t quit easily. And then, as soon as Tim is down for the count and can’t keep fighting, Jason leaves. Just like that. No actual murder attempt, no kicking-while-he’s-down (at least as far as I remember).

It makes no sense. What would Jason be gaining from that encounter? Why would he blame the kid that replaced him and not the guy that did the replacing? Hell, it would make more sense for him to go after the Titans than Tim. Not the mention him casually doubting Tim’s talents when he must have done some background checks on him.

It’s why I like the idea of Pit Madness I guess, and that Jason actually went to the tower with the intent to kill. Because that way the entire thing wouldn’t seem so… pointless.

As for how flexible I am with the Titans Tower storyline, it really depends on the route people choose to explore. But I’m a huge sucker for the “Jason was Tim’s Robin” trope where there’s at least a mild amount of hero worship going on. 👁️ Oh, and happy endings. I can’t deal with tragedies.

But yeah these are my thoughts on it. Obviously no hate to whoever enjoyed the comic mentioned above 💚 we’ve all got different things we resonate with after all~

[unlikelypandahologram]

Reasons to ship every single version of MegOP

since Very Dumb Discourse™ exists about whether or not certain versions of this ship are valid, this is going to be THE most positive post about all versions of MegOP. refer back to this post for reasons to ship your favorite version of MegOP if anyone gets weird about it with you. now let us begin!!

G1: goofy '80s faction dads fighting each other in a denny's parking lot every week LET'S GOOO, that shit is fun as fuck. orion pax also totally had a celeb crush on megatron before megatron ruined that and shot him and his pals 😔 and there's a lot of angst you can add with megatron becoming galvatron and optimus coming back to life to see how much he's changed!

BW: it's the sheer fucking comedy gold factor of a newly minted college graduate and a terrorist dinosaur IMMEDIATELY singling each other out on a prehistoric rock and deciding to call their daily gang slap-fights the BEAST WARS, what iconic drama queens LMAOOOO. also, megatron made his final body in BM look like optimal optimus SPECIFICALLY to fuck with him, and that's just...incredible

UT: the fact that megatron CANONICALLY acted like a grieving widower over optimus after he died in armada is. amazing. never forget their absolutely insane obsession with each other that they can never EVER give up on played a direct part in unicron nearly ending the world <3

Bayverse: this is the one continuity of all fucking things that gave us the lore about megatron being prime's lord high protector. absolute galaxy brain writing from the tie-in comics. also these two would ABSOLUTELY have the messiest, nastiest, most brutal hate sex imaginable, and that's beautiful. <3

Animated: optimus being a rookie washout underdog and megatron being a super scary much older warlord is a really interesting and underrated fresh take on their dynamic! lots of fun to be had with exploring what their relationship would be like after megatron finally acknowledged him as his archnemesis, lol. also...age AND size difference ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Prime: do i even need to say anything, i'm pretty sure that one flashback still of orion and megatronus being friends is responsible for birthing a million shippers for this pairing alone LMAOOOO. the bitter ex-boyfriends energy was TRULY off the charts in this show, it's a damn shame megatron never appeared in RID15

Cyberverse: same bitter ex-boyfriends energy but this time with dates at maccadams. megatron also dies encouraging optimus to beat the unhinged alternate dimension megs AAHH THE ANGST

IDW1: they're both depressed gay war criminals in this one who CONSTANTLY live in each other's heads rent-free and that's amazing, lmfao. also, megatron becoming an autobot means this is one of the VERY FEW continuities where it's not nigh impossible to figure out a way to give these two a happy ending together in fanon

IDW2: space date space date SPACE DATE. they were falling together and everything. megatron also LITERALLY tells optimus to open himself to him...to give him the matrix...yeah megs my dude i'm sure that's the ONLY thing you wanted from optimus "opening" himself. toootally positive, lol

G1 Marvel: megatron was SUPER fucking pissed and weird as shit about the time optimus died over a video game. it counts

Dreamwave: their first fight had megatron urging optimus to join him AND they disappeared together in a space bridge explosion once which is like, a fanfic-esque setup for them to be alone. also i'm pretty sure this is the continuity where optimus accidentally gave megatron a lobotomy, so...uh...potential for angst is to be had

SG: mirror universe!! evil crazy villain optimus with noble goody-goody hero megatron has so much potential for absolute chaos. bonus if you also bring in the normal versions somehow through multiverse shenanigans <3

KP: the only way this version of prime can redeem himself from the creepy underage human girl bullshit is if he gets a good hard dicking from megatron. next

Prime Wars: huge "ex-husbands go on a road trip with their disgruntled daughter" energy here. megatron also LITERALLY says "oh optimus, if only you could see me now" <3

Earthspark: again...need i say why? they're pals and working together from the get-go, what's not to ship??

Skybound: optimus literally wears megatron's arm. truly beautiful <3

TF One: it's not out yet but give it time. the entire movie is going to be about orion and d-16 being madly in love and tragically breaking up, baby!!

[aroaceleovaldez]

Mark Oshiro confuses me a little bit not going to lie. In the press tour for the first book all they ever talked about was how Nico is their son and Will is fine I guess. Then they said like 2 weeks before TSATS came out that they didn't understand Will's character at all and it's one of the main reasons why Will has so little POV.

Possibly unpopular opinion but I don't think it's a good, encouraging sign when the writer admits to not really caring about the deuteragonist or not even having a sense of how to write them...

Yeah, no. If you have no interest in 1/2 of the POV characters of your book, you REALLY shouldn't be writing it (or at least, not have that be a main character). Especially when the main way TSATS could have been improved is if it was primarily Will-centric instead of Nico-centric. Will basically had next to no established character prior to TSATS! He was practically a blank slate! But all the new stuff we got for Will in TSATS was so clearly disinterested and had no regard for his previously established traits (or the established timeline/canon). Which is annoying because fleshing out Will would have been the PERFECT opportunity to actually incorporate a lot of the topics that Mark Oshiro specializes in as a sensitivity reader, which was the ENTIRE REASON THEY WERE BROUGHT ON AS A CO-AUTHOR!!!!

As TSATS stands, there is no reason for Mark Oshiro specifically to have been the co-author instead of someone else. It's so clearly just a PR move from RR following the huge backlash Rick received due to his response to criticism on how he wrote Piper and Samirah (and Reyna and etc etc). This was immediately following Rick saying he wasn't going to write what would become TSATS because "it [wasn't his] place to." Most of the topics that Mark Oshiro specializes in either weren't relevant at all to TSATS or written very poorly (to downright offensively) in TSATS, so either Mark Oshiro wasn't doing their job or was not able to do their job for some reason, but either way it basically makes the theoretical justification for Mark Oshiro being the co-author/sensitivity reader irrelevant.

With Will, it was HUGE fanon back in the day for him to be trans. Trans!Will and photokinesis!Will were basically the two biggest headcanons for him (both largely popularized by Cherryandsisters). We know Rick is aware of this old fanon because he canonized photokinesis!Will. If we had gotten trans!Will, that would have been great! And then made sense why we specifically got a trans co-author! (Instead, if anything, TSATS canonized Will being cis.) If we had gotten Will being latino, that would have been amazing!!!! And also then made sense as to why they chose Mark Oshiro for the job as a latinx author/sensitivity-reader, versus potentially choosing an Italian co-author since Nico being Italian/Venetian was emphasized so much in the book (and done poorly! Yknow what they could have done to fix that? GOTTEN A SENSITIVITY READER FOR IT)! Based on the themes and focuses actually present in the book, it would have been most logical to get a queer, neurodivergent, Italian co-author or sensitivity reader who specializes in those three topics at least. But we didn't! So why was Mark Oshiro chosen instead when they only specialize in one of those topics? PR reasons. It's blatantly entirely PR reasons and no actual thought or care was put into this book (or, likely, TSATS 2 either).

It doesn't help that we're also actively being told that the published version of TSATS was a rough draft. Or that their editor blatantly isn't doing her job. Or that "The Sun And The Star" was the working title that they just kept cause they didn't bother to make an actual title. And that the final version is full of explicitly last-minute scenes that weren't checked over at all (the final Bianca scene, for one). Or the ACTIVELY ADMITTING TO SOURCING IDEAS AND INFORMATION FROM FANS! That last one is kind of important because at this level of publishing that is a HUGE no-no for legal reasons. You can get into a lot of trouble for that and there is a reason why it is Ye Olde Fandom Law to never try to pitch your ideas or headcanons to the source creator(s) and keep fandom separate from the creators. There is a REASON why Rick Riordan is so distant from the community these days and it's for PROTECTION AGAINST LEGAL REPERCUSSION. Mark Oshiro being the exact opposite while also ACTIVELY ACKNOWLEDGING sourcing concepts from fans does not bode well! It has to do with copyright stuff.

It's just. So. Sighhhhhhhh >->o <- me lying on the floor about all of this. It's sad being able to see the glimmer of what could have been at the very least a decent book underneath all this. If anyone involved in the process had actually cared just the tiniest amount.

[traincat]

You know something I just noticed? I don't... actually like Peter Parker.

No, seriously, I like the CONCEPT of Spider-Man and yeah, he's funny at times, but... I can't actually get invested in his canon self. It's ridiculous, it feels less like he's an interesting character and more being a superhero is the ONLY way to make him interesting (I know that's the charm), but...

Like, his phrase, "With great power comes great responsability", it feels... I don't know, childish? I like that nobody's FORCING him to be a hero, but he ALWAYS finds a way to make himself feel guilty over something and his assholeness is funny, but... not necessarily healthy?

The only thing going for him is Spider-Man, which ALSO destroys his life and I know that's somewhat unintentional, but I'm kinda tired of him angsting all the time. For instance: him not killing is Noble, him comiting to his City is admirable. It also makes it so he doesn't really prioritize people unless they had a HUGE impact in him and him not killing, makes the WORST consequences imaginable at times.

Or his "I know better" catastrophic. He's a good character for sure, but... I wouldn't want to be him. Like at all, his powers are cool, yet... that's it. I like his concept more than his canonical self (hell, I prefer his FANON self), the only somewhat exception is his Lego version, but that's cause everyone's sillier.

It's that weird or something? 😶

Anon I sincerely mean no offense but there's two explanations for this ask and one is that you're trolling me and the other is that you haven't really read much Spider-Man. I'm going to assume it's the second to be nice and because you've kind of hit two points that bother me in this fandom and thrown them together in the wash: the first is people forcing themselves to like Spider-Man because they feel like they should and in the process forcing him into this little box of bland and inoffensive likability (fanon Peter) and the second is just. being wrong about basic facts about Spider-Man but assuming they're right because Spider-Man being one of the most popular IPs in the world means everyone thinks they know everything about Spider-Man based on one catchphrase and half a Raimi movie.

And it makes me feel like this.

Like this is not your fault! These assumptions you've brought into my inbox are not your fault. Spider-Man marketing is set up around making people feel like they know Spider-Man and it's a fucking problem because it means people come into a six decade long soap opera with hardline beliefs already stamped on them and it is really hard to get people to change their opinions. I know! I was there! I was one of those people! Every day I'm thankful I didn't post fanfiction when I was in my early Spider-Man days because it would make me look like such a hypocrite but also I didn't know Spider-Man until I committed to reading eight thousand comics.

"Him being a superhero is the only way to make him interesting" potentially yes because one thing about Peter Parker that canon makes abundantly clear is that without Spider-Man he is a miserable fucking bastard. Like he sucks so bad. Spider-Man unleashes a deep well of empathy and kindness in him that might have existed but would not have surfaced without his experiences as Spider-Man because it was locked behind a concrete wall of bitterness twelve feet thick.

(Amazing Fantasy #15/Sensational Spider-Man #41)

"Him not killing is noble but" you're thinking about Batman. You are thinking about Batman. Spider-Man "doesn't kill" the way I'm "not writing this post right now." Peter aims not to kill. Peter talks a whole big game about not killing. His track record on that goal is not great. I have a whole post about that here. (cw for discussions of suicide related to Spider-Man vs Wolverine.)

Like, the thing about Peter and I think this is actually one of the biggest things about Peter is that you can't take what he says about himself 90% of the time too seriously. He is NOT an unbiased narrator of his own life. He will say one thing in his own internal narration and then you will be shown something completely different and you need to trust what you see and not what he tells you.

"Gee whillickers I've never done any crime" says man who literally only does crime. (Web of Spider-Man #43)

Two things can be true simultaneously: Peter can have a no kill rule and Peter can be spectacularly bad at enforcing himself on this rule, because he is a giant hypocrite who believes in double standards for himself first and not for anyone else ever after. This is part of what makes him an interesting character -- it is not hard to push Peter over that no kill line. The character will go there. It's up to the writer, then, to keep Spider-Man's I would say unearned squeaky clean no murder image by throwing a wrench into his plans.

(ASM #595/ASM #637/ASM #542)

This is not the place for my unhinged powerpoint presentation about how Marvel has backed themselves into a corner on reversing One More Day because to do so with the appropriate narrative weight calls for Peter to kill the Kingpin. He SAID he was going to kill him. And he IS. (He just didn't say he would do it right now.)

"I wouldn't want to be like him" neither would I!! But I am going to argue that this is where Spider-Man marketing has failed everybody because, while there are certainly traits about Peter you're supposed to admire (for all I have been and will keep ragging on him he is without a doubt a bottomless well of goodness and he is one of the most deeply kind, if not nice, characters in the American pop culture landscape), whether or not you want to be a character is not a good litmus test for what makes a good character.

"With great power comes great responsibility is corny" is like. Did you know that the phrase doesn't originate with either Peter or Uncle Ben. The origin of the phrase is in the ending narration of Amazing Fantasy #15, after Peter stops himself from killing the burglar who killed Uncle Ben. It is literally Stan Lee and Steve Ditko making a point to the audience, and that point was later put in Uncle Ben's mouth. Is it corny because it's actually corny? Or is it corny because it has been so endlessly parodied by bad faith actors that its meaning has been diminished? Because all the phrase is doing is pointing out that people with more power (be it physical, economic, or societal) have a greater responsibility to those with less power than them. Because Peter has these gifts, he owes it to other people to act responsibility. You can sum up Spider-Man as a story about power and abuse: the villains abuse their power. Spider-Man is different than the villains because, though he has great power, he chooses not to abuse it. Spider-Man as a character is a distillation of Tikkun Olam, a Jewish principle that means "healing the world." "You do not have to finish the work, but you cannot abandon it." This is why Spider-Man is street level. He doesn't have to finish the work. He doesn't have to save the whole world. He just has to do what is in his power to do, every single day, and that's where the conflict comes in, because it would be easier for him to walk away, but because he has the power, and because he is an ethical man, he can't. And this concept was distilled down very, very well in "with great power comes great responsibility" because it's a very simple phrase that takes a complex ethical issue and makes it easy to understand.

"Ordinary. Saddest face I ever saw. He tries to smile, but I know it hurts. This is all for my benefit. He wants me to be okay, and he's giving me this." (Spectacular Spider-Man v2 #14)

Spider-Man is not a faceless cardboard cutout you're supposed to endlessly project on and the Disneyified marketing's insistence on that is what ends up with people insisting that a character who has remained popular in the culture for six decades has zero actual personality traits and is instead just some mirror to hold up against the viewer, letting them reflect whatever they want back on him. And it sucks.

And then I, as a person who loves canon 616 Peter and think he's one of the most complex and realistic characters ever written specifically because he is so flawed, end up writing these screeds even though I told myself I wasn't doing Spider-Man discourse any longer.

me @ myself.

But like here's the thing about the second point: you are not obligated to like any character. This has been bothering me about greater Spider-Man fandom (and adaptations) for years because I think there's this incredible push for people to like Peter Parker. There's this feeling like, yeah, you have to like this guy, because he's so popular, and because so much of the marketing is based upon everyone liking him. The truth of the matter is not every character is going to resonate with every fan and that's totally normal. But there's this idea that you have to like Peter Parker especially, because he's the relatable superhero, but no one character is going to be relatable to everyone, and in order to make him more relatable to the widest audience possible (the most desirable to advertisers audience possible) (white cis goyishe straight men ages 8-40) (who might buy a sportscar) his actual personality has to be watered down as much as possible so he can be used, essentially, as a mirror to reflect the audience, instead of as a fully developed character that the audience can empathize with if not relate to. This is why the MCU movies look like that. It's why the last few comic runs have looked like that. You are not obligated to like Peter Parker if he doesn't work for you. There is literally nothing wrong with that. But so much of Spider-Man fandom is built on people who don't like canon Peter and instead erode his personality in various ways to fit him into neat little boxes which is how we end up with fanon Peter, who resembles, in practice, what you're describing a lot more than canon Peter does. And if you like fanon Peter, that's fine. Lots of people like fanon Peter! That's why he's so widespread, because he's much easier for fans to project whatever they want to on him. That's not an insult, but an observation, because I think he serves a purpose. It's not canon Peter's purpose, and it's not a purpose I personally am interested in, which is also fine, because not everything works for every person.

Canon Peter is complicated, and he doesn't always do the most likable thing, and he has a lot of flaws, but that's what makes him interesting and so fully developed. And a fully developed character is one not everyone is going to like. There's literally nothing wrong with that.

(ASM #129)

[thethiefandtheairbender]

I think it's really hard to go back to a lot of fanon or even canon ships in fandom spaces in a lot of ways after watching Infinity Train and how it handles relationship conflict, tbh.

The first is that they let characters have real issues with each other — actually unhealthy / toxic individual traits and subsequently unhealthy patterns with each other — even when those characters don't know anything is wrong! They think they're fine, fun, healthy, as a dynamic and as a person, the way most people do. And we see either the characters grow and change to have healthier relationships (Ryan and Min-Gi, Lake and Jesse) or spiral into worse versions of themselves until the point the relationship deteriorates (Grace and Simon).

The second thing is that in letting the characters be wrong, the show lets both characters, every time, be wrong. And how these characters are wrong are rarely on purpose! Grace doesn't mean to be controlling, Simon doesn't mean to be so dependent on her. He feels ultra betrayed when she finds out he lied (because she thought he'd murder a child if she didn't, and honestly she was 100% right) and her wanting to protect said child also doesn't automatically make how Grace handled Simon's responses 1) perfect, 2) well communicated, or 3) make her automatically a 'Good' person.

It would be so easy for Infinity Train to just go "one half has all the problems, the other just has to help them through it". That's what a lot of shippers and shipping can boil down to.

And that exact mindset is what's 'setup' multiple times as Lake thinks all she has to do is help Jesse as a passenger, not realizing that her being domineering and Jesse listening to her pretty constantly at first is because of her own issues with identity and agency and is precisely what got him onto the Train in the first place. Or with Ryan and Min-Gi, where the second Min-Gi thinks it's just Ryan's impatience and impulsivity and that he's better / 'more mature' that their progress entirely halts. Grace tries to reason with Simon repeatedly, but he's such a die hard believer in the cult they mutually formed that he refuses to listen to anything else, and lashes out when she stops acting the way he believes she should (ie. ways that keep her tied to him and their dynamic).

Because it takes two people for communication to live and die, it takes two people for patterns to form.

I feel like Infinity Train really opens up into why certain character relationships where a show tries to paint both of them as being in the wrong (*coughs* C*tradora) despite it very much being 99% all on one person's issues can feel so uneven, lacklustre, or underdeveloped bc they just weren't willing to lean in and commit to a Both Sides relationship arc, or the urge to have characters and their relationships be deeply sanitized to the point where the only conflict they have is because of external conflicts and issues that are 'wrapped up' in 1-2 episodes at all times.

Infinity Train goes "no one is meaning to be malicious most of the time, people are just messy and even someone you love deeply or have known all your life can be people you fall into unhealthy patterns with, and it's on both of you to work to get to a better place" and it's like yeah, because that's how real life works 90% of the time. It's refreshing to say the least

[echoingbirdsofprey]

Delicate (Jake's Version)

9 - Comme De Fleurs Nous Fanons

Pairing: Jake 'Hangman' Seresin x OFC Samantha Kazansky

Rating: Explicit (MDNI!)

Warnings: SMUT, cockwarming, protected!sex, feelings and lots of them, mention of death (wow these are wild)

A/N: Smut and sad wrapped into one nice, little heartbreaking package. The chapter title is hidden in one of the songs on the playlist, by the way hehehe. Take that as you will.

Taglist: @mrsevans90

Playlist

Mom: Where are you

Mom:  assuming you're with Jake

Mom: I don't care i just want to know you're okay

Mom: your father isn't feeling well at all

Mom: he wants to speak with Jake at some point about you

Sam awoke to what felt like five hundred texts but it was just the ones from her mom and a few from Nat.

Nat: tell Jake we really appreciated him paying last night

Nat; we had a good time

Nat: maybe we can do that more often?

Sam smiled as she texted her mother back first.

Sam: im okay, yes I'm w Jake, I will tell him dad wants to chat, be home in a bit

Then she text back Nat back. 

Sam: well would both like that, and he said no problem at all, he enjoyed it too

She had rolled onto her stomach, and there was a well-muscled arm strewn across her back. Jake was still snoozing, his breath warm as it hit her arm. She nudged him and he groaned, but opened one eye slightly, then smiled.

“Fuck yes, there's a girl in my bed.” He rasped triumphantly, jokingly, and Sam shook her head and leaned in to kiss him. She put her phone down and snuggled up close in his arms. She swung a leg over his hip and remembering that they went to bed naked, he thrust his hips toward hers, settling his hard length against her. He wanted to push it inside her. He didn't even want to fuck her at that moment, he just wanted to be as close as he possibly could to her.

“Hey, can I...put my dick inside you? Like just to put it inside you? I just wanna feel you.” He asked, his voice so soft and needy that Sam couldn't possibly resist. She didn't, as she positioned herself so that he could just slide right in. She wanted to feel him too.

“Just don't cum...I'm not on birth control.” She said and his eyes widened. He glanced down between them, admiring her pretty, round breasts against his chest.

“Like to live on the edge huh?” Jake asked, as he gently pushed himself between her folds, letting a satisfied groan leave his lips. He pressed them into her neck.

“No, I'm just very careful with who I let inside me . I very much doubt you're gonna get me pregnant and run, pretty boy. Dare I say, Jake Seresin , I trust you.” Sam's tone was confident and matter of fact and Jake nodded in agreement. He would most certainly not do that. He was raised better than that and if it came to it, he would take full responsibility for anything that happened between them.

Her wet warmth enveloped his length so easily and left him feeling like he could just go back to sleep. He was so comfortable with Sam. It was then that he made a decision that would change the trajectory of the rest of his life. No doubt he wanted to be chosen for this mission, but if he didn't get to be team leader, he wasn't going to be as upset as he would if he didn't have Sam to come home to. He wanted to make sure he could come home. 

“Can I ask you somethin’?” Jake’s voice was low but soft as he ran his fingers down her ribs, around the curve of her ass, drawing her in even closer. He knew he hit the deepest part of her when her brow furrowed and she whimpered softly.

“Yeah...” she sighed, as she brought her hands up and around the back of his neck. She toyed with the hair there.

“What kind of relationship do you want this to be?” He asked and her eyes fluttered shut. She puzzled over her answer for a few moments, as she shifted slightly, pushing him so that he was on his back and she was straddling him. Jake relaxed into the pillows and placed his hand at her hips. 

“I want to be done dating...I need stability. I hate dating. I hate getting to know new people. I just want to be comfortable with someone. Especially with my dad being...” She stopped, mind going fuzzy at the thought of her father’s condition. Jake watched as her thoughts went elsewhere and he ran his fingers up and down her spine, attempting to bring her focus back on him. Her eyes flicked to the sage green of his and she bit her lip. “Is that what you want too?”

“I don't want to fuck around anymore. It's honestly boring. I'm ready to commit to somethin’ long term. I want someone to come home to.” He said softly, reaching up to brush hair from in front of her eyes. Sam could tell by the way he stared at her, the way he vigilantly watched her every move, he'd fallen head over boots for her. Sam wasn't even surprised. This happened with most guys, but it for sure felt different with Jake. Most guys she'd been with wanted to parade her around, introduce her to their friend and family, brag that they'd bagged a Naval Commander’s daughter. Jake had been humble about all of it though. It wasn't about the outside connections that would benefit him. Even when he had the few moments to show her off, he did it in a way that oozed confidence but was also respectful, which was on par with what Nat had told her about him.

“So were both compliant then?” Sam mused and Jake could feel her beginning to giggle, but she stopped herself, as her fingers weaved through his short hair, making him press into her hand.

“Yes ma'am. So official. Where do I sign?” He asked, voice husky as Sam scratched his scalp leisurely. She'd come to realize just how much he enjoyed her hands in his hair, so she was all too eager to please him in that sense.

“We need to discuss a few things before you sign.” Sam said and he drew back, slight panic crossing his features. “I think we need to be honest about past partners...”

“Okay?” Jake shifted and he felt his length soften, finding the conversation suddenly less interesting. He didn't really want to discuss his past partners like this, but he gave her pause because it was so clearly bothering her at that moment. 

“I've known Bradley for years because of Mav. I slept with him once, when I was with Dad, visiting NAS Oceana. There's no feelings from my end, but I know Bradley is still a little sore that I picked you over him.” She explained and Jake pursed his lips. 

“Ah...okay...well...I slept with Nat once. Only once. And there are definitely no feelings on either end. She kinda hates me.” He pressed in closer to Sam and she dissolved into a fir of giggles against him.

‘She doesn't hate you. She just knows your reputation with women and feels stupid for being another notch in your bed post. She thinks it makes her looks unprofessional, where it's already hard for her as a female pilot.” Sam reasoned and Jake understood completely. 

“I'm sorry she feels that way. I didn't intend it like that. I was a whore in my younger years and I really don't want to be that anymore.” He said and Sam grazed her nails up and down the back of his neck as the conversation went silent for a few moments. Jake's cock had checked out for a few with the awkward and serious nature of their chat, but with her hand at the back of his neck, it was beginning to gain interest again. She hiked her leg a bit further up his hip, needing to adjust her position for whatever reason, and that had him immediately hard again. He poked his nose at hers, gaining her attention. “Can we go back to the talk about where I sign on to bein’ your boyfriend full time? I think I'm like, a prime candidate for the job and since it's open...” 

“You are one smooth asshole, you know that?” Sam chuckled and she let her lips be drawn to his. She couldn't help it. It was like he had this unavoidable gravity that she got caught up in and couldn't escape.

“But I could be your smooth asshole.” Jake said with a smirk, his lips hovering over hers. He was achingly aroused now, not forgetting that he was already inside of her. Half of the work was done. 

“You already are mine. You waltzed in like the cutest, most confident stray puppy and had no doubt that I'd keep you.” Sam joked and Jake grinned.

“Please don't take me back to the pound. I'm too good looking.” He said, taking the opportunity to carefully move his hips back and forth a few times.

“Jake...careful.” Sam's voice turned stern but there was still lust on the brim. He rolled and pulled her with him, untangling them deftly from the sheets. He tapped her leg.

“Hop off my cock for two seconds.” He commanded and Sam’s brows furrowed and she couldn't help the laugh that escaped her lips as she raised herself up and off of him. He reached over into the drawer of the night stand and plucked a condom from it. This one had a pink wrapper. “Ooh. This one's nice. One of those warming ones.” He said, ripping it open with his teeth, spitting the foil to the side of the bed, and rolling the condom over his length which was at full mast now. He reached for Sam, and she knowingly re-mounted him. 

Jake's hands gripped her hips, but then one hand went down to guide his cock back inside her. Both of her hands were on his chest, playing with the sparse hair there as she eagerly relinquished control to him. He slid inside with ease and a soft whimper left his lips that made her blush. The fact that the big, tough Hangman sounded like his composure could fail at any moment underneath her, made her hot. The sounds he made spooled heat in her loins like no other man had ever. It did nothing good for her own ego that Jake was a writhing mess for her. 

“God fucking damn it. You feel so damn good on top of me. So good wrapped around my cock, babygirl.” Jake's words had an edge to them, all desire and a little something Sam might have called reverence, but that might just be what she wanted to hear. 

“You need to stop with the pet names or I'll cum right now.” She moaned as he sheathed himself to the hilt, hitting the deepest parts of her. There was a twinge near her belly button that caused her to glance down at where they were joined. He was fully inside of her and it hurt so good. 

“Don't say shit like that. You're gonna awaken some sort of kink that I ain't never knew I had.” His voice took on a southern twang, making Sam shiver slightly. There was the good ole small town Arkansas boy she wanted. The California pretty boy came right the fuck out of him when his basal instincts took over and he reverted in speech and mind to his country boy roots. Sam would bet money that he had some kinks that she could get on board with. She's always wanted a pretty country boy to fuck her in the bed of his truck underneath the stars, so maybe she'd hint at that the next time they were in the truck. 

“Yeah, Jake? What kinda kinks do you have? Tell me, handsome, I wanna know.” Sam teased and a deep growl settled in Jake's chest as his hands took a hard hold of her ass. He wiggled both and then firmly slapped them, prompting Sam to yelp and dig her nails into his pecs. 

“You. In control. For one.” He said, pressing his head back against the pillows and using his whole body to bounce her up once, his actions begging her to get going. “Ride me like you stole me. I know you know how.”

Sam swallowed hard at his words, feeling breathless as she gazed down into darkened sage green eyes. They were calculating, and patient, but there was ferality to them that she wanted, no, needed, to tame. She took in a deep breath and she began to move her hips, not up and down but more scooping back and forth, so that her clit ground against the freshly shaven skin just above the base of his shaft. She was already on the edge of her orgasm, having had him settled inside her for such a long time beforehand, so she didn't need much to get her over the peak. 

“That's it, babygirl. You look so good up there, with those perfect tits bouncin’ up and down. Fuuuck . Use me . I wanna feel you cum on my cock so bad.” Jake's voice was strained, a needy whine at the end of his words that made Sam come undone so fast and hard that she saw stars as she moaned his name, loud and proud. Sweet, rapturous notes danced around his name, leaving her lips and filling the air in the room. She threw her head back in ecstasy, and raked her nails down his chest, which made his resolve fizzle out. He filled the condom, but he wished he was spilling inside her bare. He'd absolutely settle for what he was getting though, because it was a dream come true for him either way. 

Sam collapsed on top of Jake and he could feel for a moment how they were both in sync, breath ragged, hearts pounding in their chests. His hands traveled up and down her sides and her back, fingers dipping at the indent of her spine. She reached for his hair, massaging with the pads of her fingers softly. 

“Signed, sealed, delivered, huh?” Jake mused which made Sam burst out with laughter. Jake chuckled too, feeling warmth spread in his chest. It was unfamiliar to him as it was not a lustful warmth. It was something he felt few times before, something he felt that was similar to the comfortable warmth he would feel when he saw his brother or his parents after a long time away. His cold and seemingly uncaring heart filled with the warmth of love for Sam as she hovered above him. 

“Jake...I am so comfortable with you. I really like that...” Sam said and Jake's thoughts for a minute were ‘not feelings talk again’ but he let her continue, because not only did he know that he loved her, he also respected her. She had earned that immediately from him, by way of her own cocky confidence and intelligent retorts. “And...I am really grateful to you for helping me get through what's going on with my dad. I feel alone with it sometimes...”

“Remember I said you tell me when you feel like that and I'll take it away?” Jake murmured as he wrapped his arms around her lower back and squeezed gently. She made a satisfactory noise.

“Yes. And you are. You’re making me pretty fucking happy when I probably shouldn’t be.” Sam whispered and Jake’s brow furrowed at her admission. She lifted her head then, moving her arms to his chest, and propping her chin on her hands to look directly at him. “Which, by the way...my dad wants to see you. Wants to discuss you and I.”

“Nothing bad I hope? I actually wanted to talk to him too though, so I guess it’s good timing.” Jake said, as they settled and both became quiet and comfortable in the silence. Jake would try to talk to Ice later that day.

🛩🛩🛩

Ice wasn't doing well. Now he was having more trouble breathing. His cancer was back and it was fierce. Maverick had just been to see him a few days ago. Now he had another visitor. The blond knocked gently on the door and Ice made a motion for him to enter the room. He'd asked not to be put on a ventilator. He knew his time was coming and he wanted to go out at least a little like himself. A little bit of dignity left. 

Jake Seresin pulled the chair to the edge of the bed, where Iceman was propped up on a pillow. His phone was on his lap and he was resigned to the fate of using the notes app to communicate. Ice held a hand out and Jake shook it carefully. He felt like he might break the man. Jake hadn't known him personally for very long, but now that he did, it almost made this whole thing worse. Ice put his other hand over Jake's and patted it a few times before picking up his phone and typing something to show to him.

How's the training?

“Hard. Mav is tough. Expects a lot, but I guess that's good.” Jake said, glancing over at Ice with solemn eyes. Ice smiled. He typed again and showed Jake.

And Sam? 

Jake drew in a sharp breath and swallowed hard. He could've sworn the ring in his pocket vibrated in anticipation. The ring that he’d snuck away from work to buy. The ring that he felt like he was maybe making a mistake with. The ring that he’d spent way too much on for a woman he barely knew, but for once, he was going to wing it and trust what he was feeling deep in his heart.

“Uh, well sir, that's actually what I wanted to talk to you about. And I knew you wanted to talk to me about her too, so maybe we’re on the same page.” Jake said softly, glancing at the door. Ice nodded, having a feeling he knew what Jake was about to ask. He placed a hand over Jake's again and took a minute to type something out.

You're a good pilot. You remind me of...me...when I was young. Just the right amount of arrogance and loyalty. The kindness and respect you've shown my daughter is something of a unique and admirable quality. Not many men can be so honorable with someone else's daughter as you have been. You must really love her, though you’ve only known her for a short time, but...when you know, you know.

Good that Ice didn't know what he and Sam had gotten up to in private though. Jake's brows knitted as he stared into Ice’s eyes. Tears welled and his jaw worked as he gathered his composure enough to ask Ice the question he'd come to ask. He cleared his throat and sat up a little straighter. 

“Sir, I would like to ask for your blessing...to ask for your daughter's hand in marriage.” Jake's voice was shaky and Ice smirked. He pulled Jake toward him in a hug. When he let go, Ice typed out his response.

I would be honored to have you marry my daughter.

Jake let his breath out and took a deeper one. He smiled and thanked Ice. They sat in a comfortable silence for a little longer. Ice only asked one thing of him.

Just be there for her, Jake. She doesn't need anything else but you. Especially now. I won't be here for much longer. 

Jake's mouth tightened, knowing he was right. Sam would need him more than ever very soon.

[necrotic-nephilim]

for the recent ask game, i’m really curious about your take on 7 + 8 :P

for the choose violence ask game!

7. what character did you begin to hate not because of canon but because how the fandom acts about them?

i'll be so honest: Jason Todd. i know there's a lot of argument of "who has the worst fans" and i think that question is flawed and impossible to answer, but i will say Jason fans irked me so deeply. because i read mostly 90s era Batfam, i admittedly didn't have a lot of exposure to Jason for a while, expect for his New-52 runs i'd read years ago. and since i never liked him based on those runs, i could not understand *what* his fans liked about him, or where they got some of their headcanons/ideas from. i've never been more baffled. it ranges from "oh i don't agree but you do you, i guess?" to "what character are you talking about i am BAFFLED". and it soured me on Jason for so long that i actually hate read *most* of his pre-Flashpoint appearances just to understand what on earth people liked about him. and now i can say, i love him dearly, but i can also say, i still don't know what character his fans are talking about sometimes. and i hate the fanon version of Jason who feels almost, Deadpool-ified? with this self-aware slapstick humor but a sad soft interior but also sassy and will kill a man it's just. it feels very hollow to me and it has made me almost tempted to block his character tag more than once over the years bc sometimes certain takes make it difficult to even like him. i just have to tune it out or yell about it for hours.

8. common fandom opinion that everyone is wrong about

i'm going to get particularly saucy with this one: that Dick Grayson has Eldest Daughter Syndrome. or more generally, that he was parentified. not a single ounce of Dick's backstory indicates him as being parentified. to be parentified you have to be a child taking care of other children either emotionally or physically because your parents are not fulfilling that role. and Dick was *never* a child at the time that another child was under Bruce's care. he has been an adult for the entirety he has known every other Batkid. and even then, the *only* one he was something you could akin to being a parent figure to was Damian, and Dick *chose* that. Dick was a grown-ass man in his late 20s who had the facilities and capacity to make the decision to be Damian's primary caretaker. he's never been parental toward any of the other Batkids, nor has Bruce ever forced upon him the role of having to raise them. did Bruce do a sort of questionable job with Dick? yeah. but i would argue Bruce did the best job with Dick of all the Batkids, and even if he was shitty with Dick, he couldn't parentify Dick bc there was no one for Dick to be parenting. and Dick wasn't parenting Bruce either. they just had a normal relationship of loving and caring for each other.

as for Eldest Daughter Syndrome i just.. i Do Not Like calling any male character "female coded" or "female rage coded" or "eldest daughter coded" because they're *not*. especially not in *this* medium. these are male characters, created by men, written by men 90% of the time, and written to be *male power fantasies*. nothing about Dick or Jason or any Batboy is female-coded bc they exist to be badass men. just because they show emotion and have complex relationships with Bruce doesn't make them suddenly women. Dick shows his anger in a very destructive, stereotypically "masculine" way. even if we strip it of gender, Dick doesn't exhibit most traits of Eldest Daughter Syndrome. he easily makes relationships with people his age, he has no issues telling Bruce no, he did not have caretaking responsibilities forced onto him by Bruce, he's not even really hyperindependent. Dick has a support system outside of the Bats, the fandom just ignores it. does Dick force caretaking responsibilities onto himself sometimes? can he be an overachiever? absolutely. but these are internal complexes that just come with making a character a superhero, it's a complex they all have. if i have to hear one more fan call him Eldest Daughter Syndrome-core or say he's a victim of parentification, i think I'll explode a little bit.

[zahri-melitor]

I don't know if it's just me but it feels like alot of the points people use to criticise Tim are things that can actually be seen with early Damian writing. The too smart, dangerous, over-competent and slightly murderous character doesn't really fit Tim as a character even though he's ascribed to that and criticised for it but it can easily be seen with Damian.

I don't hate Damian as a character, but I get what you mean about it being tiring that DC keeps pushing him to the top of the totem pole especially since the way the do that is by making other characters seem incompetent and by ignoring other characters. Also correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Cass, Barbara or Tim have been on the Justice League but Damian as a teen younger than them technically is/was?

Oh boy. Late response on this, but I've been playing with it for a while.

Starting with the last point first: Tim’s actually the only one of those three who hasn’t been on a main universe Justice League at any point.

Barbara was a member of the JLA after the Morrison reboot for quite a while between 1998-2000. She’s also got the tendency to pop up in JL stories and events as one of the computer folk helping maintain their systems. She’s certainly more focused on her OWN team and I don’t think she’s ever been a member as Batgirl, but as Oracle? As Lian Harper says in Titans #1 (1999), she’s secretly running the League.

Cass was a member of Justice League Elite, a morally ambiguous Justice League spinoff coming out of one of the more confusing JLA arcs. She was placed on the team undercover as ‘Kasumi’ by Bruce essentially as a spy. In tone it feels like DC trying their hand at a The Authority ripoff before they gobbled Wildstorm up. Is it a good series? No, but it does mean Cass has been on a Justice League team with Wally, Ollie, and a bunch of Z-listers you’ve never heard of. (Someone is now going to defend oh Manitou Dawn to me and while I DO like her, she's a Z-lister, sorry)

Digression aside!

I think a lot of the time when people are arguing against a character, they are frequently complaining about the flanderised, fanonised version of that character that they trip over in fic all the time more than the character on page in comics. Not always! But those do tend to irritate people more.

In terms of "what people want to argue fanon Tim to be, Damian already is" sort of? I mean there are multiple fanon versions of Tim, but yes, "too smart, dangerous, over-competent and slightly murderous" is a common one among people who want to really insist Tim killed lots and lots and lots of people in Red Robin #8 (a reading I do not subscribe to). It is equally an okay but not great description of Damian, in that I would mostly place even early Damian as 'dangerously violent' not 'murderous' by BFTC.

I don't think it's great in terms of complete accuracy for either of them, but yeah, if you boil things down, it's closer to Damian's actual character than Tim's.

In terms of DC pushing them: yeah, Damian by being THE Robin between 2009 and 2019 or so got a solid editorial pitch as a central character, because 'Robin' as a title has that extra cachet outside of intense comics nerd circles. There were events and storylines that centred his position as The Robin, but equally it comes out in basic things like...which characters are prioritised to appear in anthologies! If we are writing a Batman Christmas story, let's have it feature Bruce and Damian, or Bruce, Dick, Damian and Barbara. And so on.

Now whether Damian's getting prioritised over every other 'kid' of the family is a murky discussion - there's a place for the conversation that certain writers in particular had a tendency to focus on Damian being Bruce's biological kid, over and above the adopted children - but generally it comes and goes in waves and with what stories are pitched. It's very clear when you read comics that some writers just like using particular characters more than others. There's often stories written where to make the story work, someone has to be left holding the idiot ball or being needlessly aggressive, to provide conflict, and writers who do this obviously have to choose someone to do it for them. If a story is centring Damian, generally he isn't going to be the one who finds out he's wrong after providing the conflict. If it's centring say Tim, then Damian might be used to push the narrative forward. And when a writer does like one character more than another, they might choose the one they don't intend to write often as the one who gets stuck being idiot ball.

TL;DR: on some occasions Damian might be being prioritised. On others he isn't. He got a lot of spotlight to himself during the 2010s; that's been more balanced since then (honestly Dick has been the one hogging spotlight for the last few years, if anyone).

[inadvisablebutinevitable]

hellooo how would you rank the aftg characters personally? like in order of favorite to least favorite?

bestie I actually wrote a whole thesis essay response before realizing how unhinged it is so here is the abridged version: (note this is all for the canon versions of these characters, fanon ratings would probably be different)

Neil Josten

David Wymack

Nicky Hemmick (I know I know but it will take me 1000000 years to explain all my Nicky thoughts)

Kevin Day

Matt Boyd

Andrew Minyard (WHY IS HE THIS LOW?? Guys I don’t know I do love him I promise I would do anything for him)

Allison Reynolds

Jean Moreau (once again should be higher I love him I do)

Danielle Wilds (her and Allison could also swap places and I’d still be like “yeah that’s right” bc I love them both)

Catalina Alvarez (my fave tsc character besides Jean she means everything to me you don’t understand)

Jeremy Knox (I love him I do I just know nothing abt him)

Renee Walker (it physically hurts me to put her this low I love her so much I would die for her)

Laila Dermott

Aaron Minyard (don’t come at me pls I like him and I love fanon Aaron I just wasn’t Aaron’s number one fan in canon but I still have so much love and respect for him I swear)

Seth Gordon

I don’t really hate any of these characters I swear (except Riko he’s ranked so low he didn’t deserve a spot on the list) ((he’s a compelling villain tho)) (((Tetsuji is ranked like -100000000 I will never forgive Tetsuji ever)))

if you really want my never ending thoughts here they are under the cut:

warning for a long ass post I’m so sorry because sometimes even I can’t focus enough to read my own long posts

I have spent so long staring at this ask and trying to figure out how I can pit my children against each other but here is my best try: (this is in order of how much I enjoyed their characters personally when I was reading. The list would prob be different if I was ranking them as people and not as characters):

Neil Josten. It’s always gonna be Neil I’m sorry. Recency bias means that I’m currently thinking (and posting) abt Jean 24/7 but Neil Josten will always take the cake for me in ways I can’t even articulate. His dry humour and narrative choices always have me in stitches. He’s got so much trauma but he doesn’t want to do anything about it but push it down until he meets people he cares about and they found family him into actually healing. He cares so deeply and loves in such a subtle but incredibly strong way. I don’t know how to even express this without saying that the reason I can’t put aftg down every time I pick it up is because of Neil. He tells the story in a way that makes me want to know everything about literally every scene. It’s all Nora ofc but the personality between the lines is how I define “Neil” and I will never not love it. You’ve got me going and now I’m not gonna stop. I can’t even apologize for the length bc I will never apologize for yapping about Neil Josten I say that shit with my FULL CHEST

David Wymack. Do I even have to explain myself here? Those are his fucking KIDS and he would do ANYTHING for them while being a SASSY LITTLE SHIT about it the whole time plus he’s a DILF I would kill and die for him.

Nicky Hemmick don't shoot me pls LOOK do I think what he did to Neil in Edens was at all ok? Absolutely not. When I first read tfc I was HARDCORE hating on Nicky and then trk and tkm made him one of my favourite characters. I don’t think he’s perfect but I love the way he loves. It isn’t hard for him, none of the monsters had to prove themselves to Nicky, or even try to be a decent friend for Nicky to automatically decide that these were his people and that he cares about them. When we meet him Aaron is a homophobic dick to him and Andrew literally pulls a knife on him and yet we immediately find out that he willingly dropped everything and moved an ocean away from his home and his boyfriend to raise them both in the US and not ONCE does he act like he seriously regrets it. Me? I would be holding that shit over their heads every time they act disrespectful but for Nicky loving them despite the shit they put him through is not even a question. It’s not even just the twins too. That one scene where Neil asks “are we? Friends?” And Nicky is SO SHOCKED that Neil didn’t know and goes “oh kiddo of course!!” is my Roman Empire. Plus he’s hilarious obviously.

Kevin Day guys I love him ok, the first two books he compelled me but TKM he POPPED OFF. “I’ve never been skiiing” BANGER “I’m gonna be the deadliest piece on the board” GOOSEBUMPS, “My father comes to all my games” HAD ME IN TEARS. Don’t even get me STARTED on that sexy ass racquet hand switch at championships I’m going to combust. I love that he’s literally obsessed with exy and has the most complicated relationships with the mc’s of every book and yet steals the show every time. Kevin Day I love you.

Matt Boyd. I love him because he would love me for putting Neil first and kill me for not putting Dan before him. He loves his girlfriend and his homies and his sport and cars in that order. He’s a golden retriever who saw a team full of scary-ass wolves and still tries to be friends with them. He wasn’t a part of the “clique” that Neil was in but he did not let that affect his perception or love for Neil in any way. He’s been to hell and came out with just as much love in his heart as he did when he came in. He told Neil that he didn’t know if Andrew would be good for him but then he saw that Andrew fought Kevin for him and decided that he approved bc all that mattered to him was that Neil had someone who would defend him the way Matt would. Then he immediately becomes the #1 wingman right before the shower scene bc he would rather die than cockblock his homie. I love him so much

Andrew Minyard. Like Nicky, I was absolutely a HATER in book one and then he became one of my faves. I like that he’s brave and determined, standing despite everything when the world tried to put him down, but not without his flaws. I really appreciate that Andrew isn’t perfect, he struggles, he’s violent when it’s necessary and sometimes when it’s not. I love how he was always willing to protect Neil, despite everything in him telling him that Neil couldn’t be trusted. He’s a flawed man, but at his core, a good one.

Allison Reynolds is that girl. She reminds me of Andrew (both of them would kill me for saying that) because she takes no shit and gives no fucks. She’s who 16 year old me wanted to be when I grew up. She goes through every emotion in these books and comes out full of righteous anger and uses that to kick the raven’s ASSES and I’m so here for that

Jean Moreau. It’s weird to me that he’s so low because I love him he’s my special boy. I thought that he was interesting in TRK but Riko was a more compelling villain to me. Then ofc we learn that he was never meant to be the villain and he was ranked just below Kevin for me because I just wanted him to be happy. Then tsc happened and he became my hyper fixation. He has a VERY similar sense of humor as Neil except for Neil his jokes were directed at abnormal behaviour, and for Jean he just gets so appalled at the most normal things. I digress about his humor I love Jean and if u want to know why just read literally any of my posts

Danielle Wilds is my GIRL. Her story compels me so much and I really wish we got more backstory for her (obvs we got plenty considering the cast of characters is so huge but still… I want more). She loves her team so much despite everything and she works so hard to keep them together I wanna give her a hug and a kiss. (That scene in TKM right after Andrew breaks Riko’s arm Dan was the FIRST one to find Neil and she was so concerned about him she cares about him so much STOP they’re FAMILY I LOVE THEM)

Catalina Alvarez was my favourite character in tsc (aside from Jean) because I love her so much. @theresalwaysafiresomewhere said that cat reminds her of me and it was still to this day the best compliment I’ve ever received. I cannot name a single thing abt cat I don’t like so I’m just gonna keep going.

Jeremy Knox is only this low bc I still know nothing about this man. Reading his pov and seeing him thru Jean’s eyes was helpful in securing him a spot in my list of faves tho, I want to know everything about him please Nora please

Renee Walker also should not be this low it physically hurts me to put her here but like most other characters in this half of the list, she didn’t compel me as much until tkm. Just a personal thing I guess. I do love her though and I wish she got more time with Jean. It still bothers me that she loved Jean but was the bigger person about it and knew that they weren’t at the right place in their lives, and yet we don’t get to see how making this decision affects her. I think she deserves to be loved more. I hope she gets a happy ending the same way Jean does.

Laila Dermott I love her I just don’t really know enough abt her

Aaron Minyard I like him I promise I do he’s got some of the best one-liners! He killed drake did all that in college with an gf and all the power to him but really I think that fanon aaron just appealed to me way more. Canon Aaron just annoyed me because— gunshots actually you know what maybe it’s once again because unreliable narrator Neil hated him and Neil’s my fave so I had to be a hater too 😔

Seth. I know some fans love him and I respect that but I just… idk I don’t see the appeal. Fanon Seth is great tho I’m a fan.

Canon Thea is somewhere on this list near Laila again bc I love her but I don’t know enough about her to be like “yeah she’s my fave”. The version of Thea I created in my head based on the crumbs the books and the ec gave us, on the other hand… she’d probably be somewhere up there with Kevin

[ackermental]

what did you mean you're not really a fan of rhaegar x lyanna?

Well, that's a complicated one. I'm more neutral towards them, let's say.

From the fanon point of view I do enjoy this version: a dashing, handsome prince kidnapping a young lady that he fell in love with. True love from the first sight, supposedly unhappy matches for both of them, running away together to have happy sex, resulting in the birth of THE CHOSEN ONE, who will save the world from the ice zombies, etc. Tragic ending for both of them, but the child survives to make their parents proud! Fire and Ice elements, referance to the title!

It checks out all of the boxes, when it's presented this way, how can you not like it? And I do myself enjoy reading some fanfics about those two, I'm not going to pretend that I don't. Also, I think it's absolutely fine if you believe that this version is canon, if you enjoy this part of the asoiaf fandom, if you love those characters, you name it.

But while reading the story, I must addmit that it was never how I saw their reletionship. Like, I know that for some reason this is a particularly touchy subject for most of this fandom, but let's stop pretending that GRRM writes some tragic Snow White stories. He's a sci-fi story writer, and a horror sci-fi at that. And it just so happens that I've read a lot of his books, before I've ever looked at GOT. So you may or may not believe me when I say this, nonny (since it's not really my purpose to change your mind, I'm just trying to show my point of view), that this whole fairy tale presented above is the most removed thing from Martin's writing style.

Ok, I'll just get it out of my chest: book!Rhaegar gives me fucking creeps! Any time when I actually start thinking about Tower of Joy and what transpired there, I find it hard to fall asleep. Again, I'm not exaggerating, I have nightmares about this shit.

Now, before any of you 'Rhaegar was a pedo, Rhaegar cheated on his wife, Rheagar forsake his duty so that he could rape a child' enthusiasts jump on this wagon, let me halt you where you stand.

No. I don't believe that Rhaegar found abandoning his realm, mother, brother, friends, wife and children to fuck a girl he only met once a year ago very pleasing. Actually, nothing less than madness could be responsible for such a thing to even accur, and yeah, that's what I believe: that Rhaegar went mad. Mad as in mad mad or mad as in obsessed, that I'm still not certain about.

The question is, if it was because of the fact that his parents were siblings or was it because someone was messing with his mind? Well, again, based on a long list of Martin's works, it was obviously the later. Either Children or Bran made Rhaegar absolutely obsessed with eugenics. Obviously, not in the way that we understand eugenics now. I'm pretty certain that, like always, he was presented with some bullshit prophecy, just like 90% of the characters in those books were, or he was convinced that this was the way for the House Targaryen to reclaim dragons. After all, Rhaegar was connected to this quest since his birth (Summerhall).

And like, a lot of things connected to Rhaegar and Lyanna story brings to my mind things like: breeding people for the specific set of genes, the repeating themes of roses, crown, young lady and Harrenhal (Sansa storyline), hatching of dragons, fire and blood (more specifically: a blood sacrifice).

We know that there needs to be a specific set of genes in order for a person to hatch a dragon. But maybe there is something else as well that is needed after almost two centuries.

So yeah, with the canon we have access to now, I'm, unfortunately, of the mind that somebody was sending green dreams to Rhaegar about the return of the dragons, same dreams many Targaryens had before (Egg to name one). He was convinced that Lyanna had the right set of genes, maybe thanks to her skinchangin abilities. This was probably done after something went wrong with Elia (who I believe was also picked for this purpose, but maybe hadn't had the right bloodline after all) or (and it is my baised opinion as a huge Martel fan, so take it with the same huge grain of salt) Rhaegar felt more comfortable with sacrificing a girl he didn't know, rather than his wife of many years. Which makes this whole thing even more ironic, because we know what happened to her. (Although was it his fault, or was the rebellion inevitable and Rhaegar just decided he didn't have to or even couldn't wait anymore?)

To whom even is the Prince who was promised actually promised? The world? The gods? Is it an exchange? That is, if we look at this whole thing from Rhaegar perpective, because none of the prophecies or the gods in GRRMs works are actually real. They are always false, always sent to manipulate human kind, to bring catastrophy and a hive-minded civilisation about. Did the Children of the forest, a hive-minded race, convince Rhaegar through false dreams that he needed to produce an heir with a very specific bloodline? Did they sold him some bullshit about three heads etc. after he failed with Elia? Did they convince him that he needed to kill the mother in order for dragons to hatch: a life for a life? Or was it about killing/sacrificing the child? Or both. Or maybe neither should have died according to some old texts about Dragons, but then at least one did anyway?

As for the whole legitimization and wedding and all of that... I don't think that Rhaegar was really concerned with those things 🤣. Sorry for laughing, I swear I'm not trying to be waspish. I just honestly find the idea of Lyanna and Rhaegar wedding hilarious, and the presence of the Kingsguard as a justification for this idea even more so.

Were the Kingsguard there to protect the child, or to make sure that nobody gets out? Dayne was a great friend of Rhaegar and he probably had no love for Lyanna as a Dornishman. Whents were lords of Harrenhal (which is strongly connected to blood magic), where this whole thing had began. And since we are at Harrenhal, I always did wonder if crowning Lyanna was planned beforehand? (which would mean that Rhaegar did his research or he had a sudden, one might say, gods sent urge to crown Lyanna, both versions equally disturbing). And Hightower element might be why the whole thing went to seven hells. They did couse an entire war in order to get rid off the dragons. Why would it change? Hightowers do like getting their hands dirty with dark magic, so who knows, maybe Rhaegar did ask them about some rituals. Espacially if they have a copy of Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History from the time of the Dance. Maybe even the same one that Alicent was reading, who knows. And maybe they've changed the recipy a little bit, tricking Rhaegar in the process.

So yeah, the Tower of Joy in my opinion was some really creepy, twisted mix between Summerhall (hatching dragons), Duskendale (kidnapping and raping - because yeah, Serala did rape Aerys, only this time it was a Targaryen doing the kidnapping and probably raping too) and Danelle Lothston shenanigans. Not very romantic, even in a tragic way, if you ask me.

Anyway, like I've said, I have nothing against the version most fans believe in, it's just that my perspective makes it sometimes very hard to talk about them as a star-crossed lovers when discussing things in canon.

But you do you, nonny.

[ultfreakme]

Lol at your Zutara anon. I keep seeing people say they’re going to remove Kataang when all they’ve done is take away the parts of Kataang that didn’t age well and highlighted the parts of Kataang that people typically do like. Rather than having a crush on her at the very beginning, he develops a small crush on her at the end after he’s gotten to know her as a person. And as much as I love Cave of Two Lovers, does Katara and Aang not deserve their first kiss to be something they both have agency in, rather than being forced to kiss under pressure (even if they wanted to)?

The way I interpret Albert Kim’s words, even though he might not personally be a fan of the ship, he does seem to make a commitment to developing it in a way that suites live action. It would’ve been so easy for them to give in and make Zutara canon. But all of the creative liberties that they took for Katara’s and Aang’s characters (like removing her motherly traits or making him more responsible from the get go) is to help translate Kataang into live action.

Agreed. I think the time frame in live action is much shorter as well, instead of what felt like a month or more in the OG. So Aang won't immediately be able to even think of romance when he's greiving and feeling the pressure of being Avatar. Same for Katara who's a lot less responsible here, I think, like she's more reckless and playful but also less angry and she's allowed to be a kid.

And yeah, first Kataang kiss(almost kiss? I thought the light went out and cave crystals came on a second before they could kiss so they didn't) being consensual would be better.

Albert Kim seems so far, to try his best to keep things as canon as possible. Introducing Zutara would cause the worst kind of backlash because Kataang fans are gonna be the majority especially with casual viewers. Kataang also carries a lot of thematic significance to the show.

In the live action, he's her way to effectively fighting the Fire Nation, her first access to waterbending which is a lot more personal to Katara's emotions in here. He showed her the world! (I have a feeling in this version, Katara is the first to develop a little bit of a crush or just general interest in that romantic direction). For Aang, she's the first person to reach out to him, comfort him, reach out when he's feeling desperately alone, his new family.

anyways yeah i wish people would learn to separate canon from fanon. I think with how long-lasting the kataang v zutara war has been, people seem to think zutara is an actual option when it isn't....and never was. It might sound harsh but that can be said for Zukka, MaiLee, TyZula Katoph, Zukki, etc too 🤷.

[away-ward]

"I think you're on to something with Michael and Emory both seeing what the group needs and how people can be used. Maybe that's how they bond. And Emmy has time to sit and observe them up close, but I think even then she's just natural at understanding people."

yeah this. I'm ngl, i understand how people love to find the similarities and compare emory with damon, but i've always been on my michael x emory mastermind family and friends agenda, alright. I know many people dont like michael, but hear.me.out. I think because temperament wise, D & E matches and are pretty similar to each other on a surface level, readers tend to confuse them being the most similar with each other, but vision and role wise? Personality? Goals in life? Interests? The way they look at the systems around them? The way they handle their conflicts in life?

Damon and Emory could not be any more different than each other! And their differences in everything was clearer as we get to will's pov in nightfall, and we came to the conclusion that to a certain extend, one was an enabler, and one was an usurper. This shows their thoughts, words, beliefs and actions' patterns. What made them an enabler? An usurper? How does will come to that conclusion? Only two traits bring them back to be similar: dominance and aggression. But nothing else beyond that because the way they want and vision their life to be are very different from each other. Damon wnating his friends and banks, emory wanting the best for everyone and settle down his responsibilities towards education, caring duties and career first. (Their financial background does play in this factor, but hey, michael and kai were from rich families too, they werent acting all entitled towards their inheritance and life like damon. Much to think about). And Despite being angry and hopeless, emmy still put one foot in front of the other, visioning whats her future gonna be like. But damon want to be in hell, he doesnt give a fuck about anything else, even his company was started out of nowhere, he didnt even have the skills to know that people would want to pay for his labor's services, and when he fucks up too much, he didnt know how to reconcile with all that. Only promised that he'll make sure he deserves them later. D & E are so different, i was always confused when they relate one with the other. I believe, much to the disgrace of a lot of readers, damon was more similar with rika than he was with emory, or even banks.

Thats why it's also infuriating to me when readers said damon and will married the girl version of each other, because did we read the same books? What about will and winter, and damon and emory is the same to a T? This is Penelope Douglas we're talking about, they're not shy to write raunchy sapphic, polyamorous, dubious relationships. If they wanted a gay relationship between Damon and Will to happen, it wouldve happened, but the text always made it clear that theyre not into each other like that because of what they wanted the most in life, and also because damon only use sex to control people. Not until winte then he felt like he can just enjoy sex without pain. And now in this bonus, even Kai called him out for it. Not even will, his #1 bff had the power to change that. And will had years by his side, but this winter pops out of nowhere, and fix that for him in such a short amount of time (which emmy also knows that winter's the ony way to damon, interesting). I'm not even a fan of winter, but even i can't say that theres anyone else who would fit to be damon's lover or even anyone else in this series because they all have their very specific wants in their partners that they couldnt find anywhere else. Not even their best friends can fill in the rika, banks, winter snd emory-shaped holes in their lives. Ofc, fanon interpretations are allowed, so wtv. Damon and Emory has no similarites other than 1. Theyre in the same family for the same call of void, 2. They love will very much, 3. They had a very sad backstory that impacted their plots, and 4. Theyre grumpy on the exterior, dominant and aggressive. But even point 4 is debatable, because even though emory is dominant and aggressive, she is still pretty amicable to people as long as those people are or can be usefull to her or her higher motives.

Do recall her first interactions with Alex, Aydin, Micah, Rika in the present time. She saw what they can do for her, and she wasnt sorry at all to use them. I like that her character can be questionable sometimes, and i even like it when Alex called emmy a manipulative monster, because just like michael, i never saw something wrong with that. This is a dark romance with fucked up people who do want they want, who think they actions and words justify their ideas and beliefs, in an ugly way, why can't we see the potential of emmy being someone else's monster? And her not even denying alex? I was screaming!!! Because Isn't that cool? That she's not just this pure innocent nerdy girl from the town? Finally after 3.5 books, we actually see a dominant questionable FMC in this series. Let FMCs and women be morally grey!! She's a fictional dark romance character, let her be slimy AF just like the men in the series! Let her bully her lover! Let her use and support that serial killer and the son of a terrorist! Let her be friends with that same leader you hate (michael/aydin)! Emory Scott was not a morally righteous person, let her do her thing, and enjoy the ride. This is also why I like it when she was dealing with the police' questioning and reaffirming will about their family in fire night. It's for this reason. And noticed how michael didnt care what she did? Because he knew she did it for them! We need more questionable FMCs in literature, pleasee.

Now, coming back to damon and emory, i cannot deny, D & E both did make up to each other's strength, weaknesses and quality of what they want at work. That's why their partnership work very well. But that's where their pesonalities' similarities end (other than the ones i listed).

Onto my Michael x Emory family and friends masterminds agenda, M & E are like leader x architect mastermind. Theyre always in the position to either lead, or in an active stance, unlike kai, will, rika or winter. Damon and banks did fluctuate between passive and active depending on what others needs, but michael and emory's the pioneer. They're the front and center. Their opinions and decisions are usually what shape their current situations or the final say in a discussion. Their approach towards strategising is more hollistic, and it touches pretty much all aspects of their life. What i meant by that is their leadership, opinion and building of something doesnt just revolve around their work, but it also shapes the dynamic of the group, the role they or others play in their family, and they execute their role very well. Michael more so a leader than emory was. But i 100% believe than unlike damon, if emory actually wanted to take over michael's position, she could. She's an usurper, i dont think she'll just let michael have it easy if she didnt agree with something. And this is beyond like banks and michael bantering because they have some weird tension and families' companies. Emory actually do have input on what they do, and she is known to have a say in things, that other might not agree with.

another interesting thing about michael and emory's interaction with the people around them is, Being around people like M & E can make you feel like you're a fish in the water, not only you're breathing, but you feel at home, because when they disagree with you, it feels like youre being chided or corrected or shamed, but them being by yourside made you feel good about yourself. This part of M & E are not always explicit though, but you can see the implicit text by observing the reactions of how people react to their words and actions. Like how rika, kai, damon snd will reacted to michael's approval, help or disappointment, like how will, damon, aydin, alex, micah and rory reacted to emmy's actions and disagreements. Their words and actions have very impactful rippling effect on people unlike the rest. You can actually feel like you can achieve or be who you want to be, or where you want to Be with them. As if they knew where your wrong or right on your path to somewhere. I think rika, kai and will felt that with michael, and will, aydin and others felt that with emmy. We dont see much of others but we know that this is can be possible especially after ten years. Because their personality revolves not only being visionary, but them being accustomed to the system around them, made them able to have the ability to execute their plans to get what they want. Emmy doing all that in nightfall to support her grandma, to get a degree and a job, to have aydin's ally, to be friends with micah and rory, to borrow rika's items, to have someone by her side with alex, to offer herself to them sll in that train. "Nothing wrong if she just give in to what you want". Michael too with rika, with his nba career, to stay loyal with his friends, to open that resort, and many more. Can you see the vision, KO? (Pun intended)

M with the horsemen and later on with all the addition to their family, and E with the guys at blackchurch, and later with their big family, making decisions around them, finding what fits best for them etc. They both knew what was important to their values in life, and how to keep the family up, and it's not only within the group, but also to match the system outside of their family, like their potential allyship with khadirs and morreaus, enemies with ilya evans martin trevor, police system when they cause mischief around town, third and significant places of/in the town like the tower, church, cathedral, resort, etc. M & E knew the vision, what and how to preserve, and how to polish or do better so that they can move forward and profit more. This Doesnt mean that theyre better than the rest but this was where their strength lies best as compared to rika, banks, kai, damon, winter and will who took care about rules, state policies, morales (in private and in public) or tradition, They all take care of each others strength and weakness like this.

Unlike the majority of the fandom, i Never saw how D & E can be similar other than the ones listed above, but M & E? They've always been pretty similar, i believe. If not their background, it's the way they move. I still believe that Emmy is smarted than Michael but Michael is more intuitive than Emory. Hence why i think michael understand will's need for something more, above and beyond. Not like damon who he knew will didnt need alex. But michael would know WHY will needed emory. Someone that not only makes him see what's up there, but also someone who can take him up there to see what he's made of. Sounds similar to how michael made rika feel huh? The difference is that michaelrika just wanted to feel and discover something unknown, outside of their monotonous privileged life, but willemmy wants to use whatever unknown path in the light and dark to ACHIEVE something bigger, better, something above what they already knew about themselves. MichaelRika felt like an idea or a calling, but WillEmmy is like the tough final destination executioner, with KaiBanks as the strong steady pillar, and DamonWinter as the whimsical storytellers and dreamers of the group. WillEmmy would be the final destination executioner that wraps up all of their unknowns, where they gather the ideas, pillars and dreams from others and then set up a more structured, efficient and profitting path that benefits their families and everyone, knowing when and where to anticipate people like how they always deal with everyone. and i believe that was how they build their world when i finished the series then, I always get this feeling from these couple. This bonus just strongly reaffirmed my opinions about them building things together. WillEmmy "we build thunder bay together now, Em"! Exactly! Now they know what theyre made of!

side note: Made me also think about Rika and Emory's interaction throughout the series, and from that bonus from banks' pov, emory IS a steady, firm and strong support system for their family. Like a big sister. Like a pillar. That's why i also believed that nightfall should come before kill switch so that sensitive matters like rika's pregnancy can be handled better if she had a stronger, mature and steadier female presence and support system by a big sister like emmy, who's love is always flowing and very unyielding. I just knew that emmy would know how to breach this topic with rika and she would spoil them all always. That bonus really just showed that even in a short period of time, she was a very adoring and doting sister to everyone. Banks just didnt realised that emmy loved her the same way she did with rika because of her insecurities. Now this made me crave a rika, banks, winter and emory get together! What would they do on the weekends or for fun, huh?

Anyway, back to my M x E agenda, It's interesting too because at one point, i had the thought of switching michael's life with emmy's and i wonder, if emmy grew up like michael, how different or similar would she think, act, lead, follow etc. and how would michael react if he grew up like emmy. Sex and gender swap included. Because the very big differences for them would be their dinancial status and physical strength to overcome their abusers. Hmmm? How long would they take since by the end of nightfall, michael still havent killed evans, but martin's dead. And between michael and emory, emory was more likely to use physical violence than michael. Interesting, no? out of all the horsemen, michael and kai were the most class conscious. Like they knew how the system around them works, and only people who knows how system works can get far in life. damon and will had a late awakening, due to whatever things they were going through or enabling themselves with, but michael and kai were pretty clear-headed. Emory was clear-headed too. Making tough decisions was her forte. Again, the M x E crossover. But how would their class consciousness impact them if they swap realitues and sex/gender?

idk i havent think that far, but it's something that interests me now. What do you think of all these, KO? What do you think were similar or different about michael and emory? Or even other horsemen with her? I fully believe what alex said in emmys car at that cove scene was very important. In chapter three about what alex and the family needs. And emory knew it too, she just cant have it. Them.

but vision and role wise? Personality? Goals in life? Interests? The way they look at the systems around them? The way they handle their conflicts in life?

I totally get what you’re saying (I think). The thing about Emory and Michael is that they can see the blueprint.

Michael, as Kai said, is like The Builder. He sees how all the parts of something make the whole. How their strengths and weaknesses balance each other, who can hold what load, and where they need reinforcement.

Emory (an architect that can actually read blueprints, so it’s just funny in literal and figurative sense), does the same with people. She can destruct them, see how they fit together, and move forward based on that.

However, Damon, like Michael and Emory, is not without the ability, he just uses it differently. He sees life like a chessboard; people are just pieces to move. That takes understanding how people work, who has what power, where is their weakness, what holes are they leaving unprotected.

But going back to your point.

Reading this first point, I realized how true it is that Emory and Michael share a lot of the same traits. They’re both determined, realizing what they’re good at from an early age, set a goal, and took a path to achieve that goal. They were both able to make careers out of something they loved, despite all obstacles – family, financial, or otherwise. The only other person who shares this quality with them - knowing from a young age what they wanted to do and finding a way to do it - was Winter.

Additionally, the way that Michael allowed Evans to stay alive at the end of Nightfall to take care of his mother sort of echoes the way Emory let her grandmother stay with Martin. Both were on the condition that the person they’re letting off the hook is going to take care of the person they actually care about. At the same time, Emory acknowledges that a part of her loved her brother, at least the memory of him. And while Michael doesn’t want to take another person away from his mother, there might still be a part of him that wishes things could be different between him and Evans. At the very least, both Michael and Emory wanted their abuser to leave them be, without wanting to take revenge for the abuse.

Both were aware of class differences. I think Michael, aware of his privilege might have admired, or even envied, Emory because she had to fight for everything she got. Every accomplishment, every bright of recognition; none of it came because she was anyone’s child or she had an advantage. In fact, she had nothing but disadvantages and it didn’t stop her. Michael would have recognized that. In the bonus chapter, Trevor questions whether Michael would be as good at basketball if he didn’t have a court, and Michael wonders the same. In Nightfall, Emory wants the pool to herself because unlike them, she doesn’t have access to a private pool in her home. Micheal would have respected that, I think, even if Will hadn’t asked them to leave.

Michael doesn’t want to give up his privileges and good life; he wants to earn them for himself, apart from his father. Emory doesn’t want to stay poor, as if that would be revenge against the wealthy classmates she hates. She wants to earn it all herself and show them up. They have similar lines of thought about money and privilege.

They’re not always right; sometimes their biases get in the way. Still, they have much in common.

But after reading your message, something else occurred to me. We’ve been talking as if there can only be “X is most like Y”, “A is a reflection of B”, “C and D are literally the same, just different fonts.”

And none of that is true. Truth is Damon and Emory do share a lot of similar traits. They’re more reserved, they’re more calculating and suspicious of new people. They can endure a ton of pain by themselves, both physical and mental, possibly more than anyone else in the group could tolerate.

Emory is a lot like Michael, in that both of them can see people for what they are, they’re strengths and weakness, and make a plan to use them to the best of their ability. Like you said as an example, despite knowing that the group didn’t like Aydin and that he’d used her, she could see the value and benefit of keeping him close and including him. She didn’t let her personal opinion get in the way, and I think if it were Michael alone, she could probably sway him. But he as the think of the group as a whole.

Emory is also a lot like Kai in that she’s patient with people, and she realizes when she might have said something insensitive and backtracks (Emory with Elle in Nightfall vs. Kai with Damon in the Bonus Chapter). Emory also cares a lot about people, like Kai does, and they’re willing to do the dirty job of caring for those even when they don’t want to.

Emory is like Will in having a sense of curiosity and adventure, wanting to create something no one else has before.

And I’m guessing the same could be said for any of the other characters, and that’s why they’re a family? One thing I picked up from the Bonus Chapter was how often they guys commented ‘I need him for xyz reason’ Michael and Damon had their fathers in common and a dislike of extreme drugs and alcohol abusers (Will excluded, though Damon got on that fairly quickly when he came back). Damon and Will were wild, where Kai and Michael were cautious. Michael and Will were curiosity, and Kai and Will were easier to be around. Kai and Damon were opposites in almost always, but they both agreed that sometimes you need some healthy violence. All of these traits play into and off of each other, and as their family grows, the same can be said for each new addition.

I like the idea of comparing the characters, seeing where they are similar and where they are different, and what those differences mean of the situations they get into. So perhaps it is time to lean away from the “Damon and Emory are exactly the same” talk, and replace it with “what do the similarities mean? What do the differences mean?”

I was trying to think of where this discussion was coming from. We see Emory compared to Banks and Damon, and now Michael. We see Rika and Winter compared often. As you mentioned, so people compare Will with Winter.

At first, I thought that it was the "If this hated female character where a man, they'd basically be this male character who is universally loved." But that's not really the case here, is it?

D & E are so different, i was always confused when they relate one with the other. I believe, much to the disgrace of a lot of readers, damon was more similar with rika than he was with emory, or even banks.

And this goes to what I was saying above. Damon and Rika do share a lot in common. They like playing games of manipulation, treating situations as if they’re a game of chess. They value family (Rika forgiving Christiane because that’s her mother vs. Damon not seeing her as family because he’s got all the family he needs, and the fact that they fight over what makes someone family). They both wanted children. A lot.

While I get that what you’re saying is the comparison between Emory and Damon is weak when there are others that are more alike, I think the discussion of MBTI as shown me that these characters are all really different and that’s what makes the group work.

Thats why it's also infuriating to me when readers said damon and will married the girl version of each other, because did we read the same books? What about will and winter, and damon and emory is the same to a T?

I, fortunately, haven't been confronted with this comment (that I can remember), but I can imagine people saying it.

I think the case for comparing Emory and Damon is stronger than comparing Will to Winter. Though I can see why they do. Will and Winter are easy to deal with (in theory). They’re both generally warm and welcoming people. But those are basic traits, and I’m not sure if there’s are deeper aspects in their personalities to draw comparisons to.

Still, I don’t agree that any of the characters can be compared as if they’re a 1:1 version of each other. Therefore Damon and Will couldn't have married the female version of the other. That’s stupid.

If they wanted a gay relationship between Damon and Will to happen, it wouldve happened,

That’s what I think every time I see someone state with complete confidence that they were in love. As if a part of this story isn’t that there are different ways to love a person. That not all love is romantic. As if their brotherhood doesn’t and can’t exist because Damon and Will care about each other deeply.

“But the sex!” they cry.

Yeah…because neither of them ever had sex with someone they didn’t love? Or had no real emotions towards? Because Damon never used sex as a manipulation tactic, and Will as a way to ease his pain? I’ll accept that they’re not completely straight as an argument, but I highly doubt either of them would ever fall in love with a man.

Do recall her first interactions with Alex, Aydin, Micah, Rika in the present time. She saw what they can do for her, and she wasnt sorry at all to use them. I like that her character can be questionable sometimes, and i even like it when Alex called emmy a manipulative monster,

To have this as an example after saying that Damon and Emory don’t have anything in common is interesting, because I remember Damon using Alex to get information on Evans. He had no problem seeing what she can do, and using it to his advantage, even if it meant going behind the group's back. Alex even had a few words for him at that party, too, and Damon didn’t really care.

There’s the phrase “two sides of the same coin”?

These people are like six sides of the same dice. (Die? Is a single dice a die? You know what I mean.)

Because while I think Damon and Emory are the same in this situation, I can argue that Damon is more extreme than Emory.

Remember when Damon said that he didn’t think any of the boys would help him murder someone, but then when he was killing Natalya, Emory jumped in. She didn’t even really know the situation, but she recognized something in Damon that was in herself.

We know she never took the chance to kill Martin, because for her, it never got that far. She was never that desperate, though I have no doubt that if the situation were life and death, she’d be able to make that decision. Similarly, I don’t think Michael would have killed Trevor if the situation wasn’t life and death. Michael and Emory match up in that aspect, but that doesn’t mean Emory didn’t get there before him.

I think on the scale of No-Murder to Murder, she’s probably a lot closer to Damon than she is to Michael.

who think they actions and words justify their ideas and beliefs, in an ugly way, why can't we see the potential of emmy being someone else's monster? And her not even denying alex? I was screaming!!! Because Isn't that cool? That she's not just this pure innocent nerdy girl from the town?

 I mean, I think Emory always sort of owned that she was a bomb waiting to go off in Will’s life, and that’s why she tried to get away from him. She never denied that certain things were her fault. She always had a backbone and was willing to cross the line if she needed to. She accepted accountability easily.

But I thought Alex was calling Aydin a manipulative monster, not Emory, because he was able to “manipulate” Emory into thinking she doesn’t have to answer to them, even though she owning up to her role in Will's life. She was essentially calling Emory weak for being Aydin's victim.

However, Emory came to that conclusion because she was ready to, not simply because Aydin opened her eyes. As Emory said, her view of Aydin was more complicated than Alex was willing to comprehend. Even so, Emory refused to apologize for it, which I guess made her a monster in Alex’s eyes, too.

Their [M&E] opinions and decisions are usually what shape their current situations or the final say in a discussion.

And it’s in this way that Will and Rika are similar. Both had to wait for the person they desired most to be ready to accept the inevitability of their love. They spent years watching, waiting, following, as their person was just outside of their reach. And when they finally thought that they’d grabbed hold of them, after just one night, Michael and Emory slipped away again.

Just an interesting comparison I thought about as I was reading.

But i 100% believe than unlike damon, if emory actually wanted to take over michael's position, she could. She's an usurper, i dont think she'll just let michael have it easy if she didnt agree with something.

I don’t think Emory would let Michael have it easy either, but is she persuasive enough to sway the group as a whole? I’m not so sure. Micah and Rory were different because their bond to Will was different, as well as their view of him. For over a year, he’s been a friend and ally, but all of the sudden he and his six friends – who they have no loyalty to – are ganging up on this girl they’ve come to care about? It’s no wonder she was able to get them to change sides. Not sure Emory would have as much success with Kai or Rika.

But she might have success with Damon, though. Because they have similar thought processes.

My point is that it all plays into each other, and it’s why I would have liked to see more of the dynamic between Emory and some of the others, especially Michael, but they hardly share more than a sentence in the entire series.

this is beyond like banks and michael bantering because they have some weird tension and families' companies. Emory actually do have input on what they do, and she is known to have a say in things, that other might not agree with.

But a part of Banks' character is never coming to the table without a plan, even if she knows Michael isn’t going to agree with it. She still tries; she puts it out there, states her case, and will argue to get Michael to see things her way. And sometimes she wins, like we see in Conclave when Michael eventually agreed to her idea.

There’s a reason people compare Emory and Banks, too. They think and strategize, and they don’t let people they see as equals boss them around.

They both knew what was important to their values in life, and how to keep the family up,

I do see your vision (haha!). But I think Emory probably isn’t as skilled in this as Michael is, if only because he’s had more time to develop and live with the responsibility of making this team, this family, work. You said that Emory was smarter, while Michael more intuitive. Emory is book smart, but then her goals in life relied on her getting out of town and into a school, while Michael relied on his intuition to survive his father and find his real family. Both are logical and goal orientated.

I can see Michael teaching Emory how to develop her skills. Maybe not directly, but identifying that she has these same skills and helping her cultivate them by testing her, giving her the opportunity to make plans and see them through. He did that with Rika. And being a mayor, Rika is something of a leader now. Banks learned from Damon, and A.P. how to execute her role as a Senator. But no one is there to teach Emory how to use her skills to the best of her ability, and as a leader of the family and the other person who can see the blueprint – the builder, the visionary, the mastermind, as you said – Michael could help her in that way.  

This Doesnt mean that theyre better than the rest but this was where their strength lies best

Agreed. This doesn’t mean that they're better, just that their skills serve a different role. If they were all leaders, it wouldn’t work.

The difference is that michaelrika just wanted to feel and discover something unknown, outside of their monotonous privileged life, but willemmy wants to use whatever unknown path in the light and dark to ACHIEVE something bigger, better, something above what they already knew about themselves.

This is interesting, because I see your point. To me, it feels that Michael and Rika are very inward focused; they are concerned with themselves and what their family is doing, but not overly focused on things outside the group (this isn’t to say they’re unsympathetic or unwilling to help when they see a problem in Thunder Bay or the world), but that their concern will first and foremost always be them and the family. Whereas, Will and Emory are very focused on Thunder Bay as if the entirety of It (the town, with its traditions and mysteries and lore) is their family, and they want to build it up and take care of it. They’re more focused on the external.

I’m not sure if that’s what you were getting at but it’s how I heard it. Again, neither better or worse. Just different.

And between michael and emory, emory was more likely to use physical violence than michael. Interesting, no?

I completely forgot you made this point when I was talking up there but I think we agree?

if emmy grew up like michael, how different or similar would she think, act, lead, follow etc. and how would michael react if he grew up like emmy. Sex and gender swap included.

This really gets into the idea of nature vs. nurture, which is not something I’m competent enough to discuss thoroughly, but it’s an interesting question all the same. If we had Emerson Crist and a Michelle Scott instead?

I fully believe what alex said in emmys car at that cove scene was very important.

 I believe it too. It was a fundamental theme in the story, but I think I would have liked it coming better from Michael, seeing that Emory was the missing piece that kept their family from reaching its full potential. Since he was the builder, after all. Instead, we got him being all defensive and acting like he didn’t know they needed her. Sure the family could continue without her, but he had to see the benefit if he was the visionary of the group.

Sorry it took so long to reply. There was a lot to reply too! Thank you for the message and the thoughtful comments. It was interesting to see Emory and Michael, and the group as a whole, from this perspective.

Let me know your thoughts!

KO

[sneezemonster15]

Hello, sorry but I just wanted to rant about some things.

Regarding the Hetsuden, I just saw a SNS shipper on Twitter saying that they can’t “defend” Sasuke anymore and that he’s “over”. Other SNS shippers also said that he’s ugly. Why do they need to “defend” Sasuke when the said Sasuke they’re talking about is not even canon. He’s a fanon character from a SS shipper’s fanfic. Like yeah Sakura Hetsuden sucks but it’s annoying to see some SNS stans taking their frustration and hating on Sasuke himself. Like for me I just rather say that’s not Sasuke in the first place(because he isn’t) and will try to stay away from that SS shipper’s fanon version.

I also remembered that up until even before Hetsuden came out, I’ve seen multiple SNS stans hating on Sasuke. Have you seen these types of behaviors too from SNS stans or is it just me?

Hehehe. You know, I saw some tiktoks that were recced to my Insta account and it was hilarious. A lot of fans think Sasuke's character has gone downhill from Shippuden and that he has been totally nerfed and to underline it, they were making comparisons between Shippuden and Retsuden. 🤦

Like that scene where Sasuke struggles to fight the 'dinosaur' (a dinosaur, 😒) was compared with the scene where he fought the hachibi in Shippuden.

But like most casual fans, some underinformed SNS as well, don't categorically know what canon or novel or filler is. Most fans are anime only, so they aren't well versed with the categorizations and differences. All they are concerned with is how Sasuke is shown in anime, and all of it is subject to their judgment of Sasuke's character. You can certainly enlighten them and tell them the difference.

Man like doesn't Retsuden Sasuke have TWO hands? 😑

Most fans don't really pay attention to the details. Or even some of the more overt stuff.

Yeah plenty of SNS hate Sasuke. Some others have a very problematic and skewed understanding of his character. Like no seriously, some SNS maintain that he didn't suffer from trauma or PTSD. Because that would make him weak and he isn't weak. Smh. When the whole manga has consistently and necessarily featured major themes of war and resultant trauma and PTSD where several characters have suffered from it. It's the basis of the isolation and discrimination suffered by many important characters and their arc which contributes majorly to the plot. Like honestly, some fans unfortunately have a very limited and shallow understanding of how trauma and PTSD work. What's problematic is that they spread misinformation about these very significant issues regarding mental health. This needs to be addressed. Some SNS blame Sasuke for when he betrayed Naruto and abandoned Konoha. They only think from Naruto's pov but dismiss Sasuke's own very properly and detailed established pov.

Selective reading. Ignorance.

Lots of SNS don't see or stubbornly stick to their only partially examined theories for a complex character such as Sasuke and most of it is in response to Sasuke stans. Both Naruto stans and Sasuke stans can be silly. It's always this juvenile tussle - Who's better? Sasuke or Naruto? Who did the bad stuff and who did the virtuous stuff and where do they stand on the goodness scale.

These SNS judge them on the basis of easy binaries and keep an embarrassingly simplistic point system to attribute 'virtues and vices' to Sasuke and Naruto's characters and talk morality in just loose, underexamined terms without truly understanding the context. Every one suddenly and righteously becomes a philosopher, psychologist and ethicist in this fandom. Lol.

It's all very silly. It's important to ground these characters in their lived reality and established characterisation and then judge them while being cognizant of their worldbuilding and existing narratives of visible themes and concepts in the manga such as idea of a nation, war, loyalty to the nation, justice, individual vs collective, revenge, systemic oppression, systemic marginalization of a community, systemic bigotry and neglect, corruption, left inclined ideologies, existentialism etc.

If Kishi has featured these themes so visibly and stressfully in the manga, it would be remiss of fans if they simply ignored it by saying ignorant things like - it's just shounen, it's only meant for kids, Kishi isn't that smart, there's no deeper meaning, it's only entertainment, etc etc.

If you don't know about these themes, you wouldn't be able to recognise them. But those who do and have seen them in other works or media, even lots of Japanese media Kishi is influenced by, will identify them. Just a matter of experience, perception and information. Fans will differ in their capacities to identify these themes. If one is truly curious and reasonable, they will imbibe it without personal bias. Those who prefer to live in their echo chambers won't. You can't help those who don't want to be helped.

Yes I know some SNS who are either Sasuke haters and those who are Naruto haters. Both silly. But I don't really interact with them. They are quite visibly biased.

[chimerinshine]

Got a fanon idea for Cuphead folks, folks but ofc i will start on my fav mini bosses yes it was only one royal chess folks The King's Leap!: Anywho,

Here's some symbols:

♟-Pawns

🕯-Bishop

🪓-Rook

🗡-Knight

👑👧-Queen

👑🙎‍♂️-King

🏰-All

-------------------------------------------------------

♟All of the Pawns (canon) are males and they all siblings and octoplets and 10 years old.

♟Even though they are just in the same age some of them considering themselves as the eldest or the youngest.

♟They love pranks, that's why they get their nicknames as The Pink Trolls.

♟Well as normal role of siblings they were between a love and hate relationship.

♟They all have wooden double decks. Some of them didn't want to go to bed because darkness scares them they afraid that Devil himself might watching them to give them nightmares. So as for that they going down in the castle before nighttime and collect some fireflies to turn their own small lanterns into their nightlight even though...their heads glows in pink

♟They all have names base on a spanish number ofc (Uno, Dos, Tres, Quatro, Cinco, Sais, Siete and Otso)

♟They might be octoplets but they also have different personality type.

Uno always acting as the eldest and thinking he is the most intellegent and bravest but not really he get easily to get scared on loud noises like thunders or ghosts

Dos he was kind a like Uno but more wiser and like he reading books and discover things up yes he is kind of medieval nerd kid

Tres he is the bravest, toughest littel pawn in the castle he always doing a wooden sword fight with his siblings he doesn't need a night light cause he ain't afraid of anything at all

Quatro is a complete opposite of Tres he get easily to get scared and a cryer so Tres always protecting him and giving him courage

Cinco complete opposite of Dos he was a trouble maker really and leader of the pranksters. Sometimes he steal a coin gold to the Queen but got scolded by the Knight and run away only to make the Knight he the one who is stealing gold of the Queen. He also love to annoy Bishop by making loud noises while on his Bible Studying

Sais he is the most creative yes he is more like a crafter or an artist. He also responsible for pranking materials

Siete he is soft, quiet, nature lover one. He do nothing but to sit and read a book and sometimes go out in the castle to stargaze or cloudgaze. He always spent with others to learn and observe. He also wanted always to listen to Bishop's bible studies cause it feels like it was story telling to him

♟Pawns are like the younger version of the chess folks. So they keep studying and focusing on their skills to get their ranks once they get into their right age. They mostly wanted to be the Queen because of her power but according the rules Queen supposed to be a female so they need to marry one female someday and they can be the King and have a Queen

♟When the Pawns grew up the will lose their glowing pink stuffs and their heads can be attached or what depends on what position they got

♟They also be the butler or helpers of royal folks

♟Their height is around 2'4 it will increase once they have their positions at the future

♟Their really obsessed on sweets so yeah better hide the deserts when ya havin' dinner

--------------------------------------

🗡Knight was base off on Disney's Goofy The Dog (canonically). He is the bravest and toughest Knight in the castle but not that wise at all. He is willing to serve the royal folks and have a complete respect for them even though he hates the Queen which her corrupted issues

🗡He is 6ft tall yes HE IS A STALLION BABYY!!! Oh-uhm ahem- anyways

🗡His parents were from different areas his dad was a grey horse farmer and her mom was a beautiful white horse knightness. He grew up with his mom and sometimes visiting his father's farm on his free time just to do farm stuffs even though the Queen never allowed him to do that but he always find a way with a help of the Pawns ofc

🗡He is sometimes clumsy wumsy and dwumb yeah but he was trying his best

🗡He has crush on Esther Winchester and she was her chilhood farm friend

🗡His favorite foods are hays and apples

🗡He go alternative using his legs he can go for two or four one but he always run in four hooves

🗡As a horse one ofc he do horse stuffs

--------------------------------------

🕯Bishop is the most peaceful, faithful, holiest and wisest chess piece. He is Spanish too so yeah he sometimes expresses stuffs in Spanish. He has spanish accent.(canonically)

🕯He is around mid-age one

🕯He can fight and use his holy powers if it needed that's why he also known as the Holy Warrior

🕯Sitting on his altar it makes him in his height around 5ft but when he stand he is 7ft

🕯He is a nature lover and animal lover so sometimes when he is not busy he just coming out be a gazer or just sit in a tree and read a bible

🕯He love listening to choirs and peaceful instruments

🕯Many know him as holy figure. But he has countless secrets that others don't know. Like he can made miracles like healings, light aura that suddenly goes out, prediction or some visions like they can read what is front of him literally. So some of his folks suspicious him much like he hiding something. Or they just dozing it off see him as a weirdo

🕯He met the Devil himself back when he was a little younger and have a fight with him so he keep an eye and track on him just incase he will come back again

🕯He once seen angels and talk to God himself

🕯The Levitating candles was part of his skills actually. And depending on his life like if the candle light goes out that means he is not around or something bad happened to him

🕯He only has one floating head but Canonically he has 3 heads (which i thought at the 1st place it four) he can make duplicate 2 of his heads

🕯All of his heads has representation Front Head (Sees The Present) Left Head (Sees The Future) Right Head (Sees The Past)

🕯Each of his head when he summons all of it sometimes it has their own minds Left Head's voice tune is kind of a sad and soft however Right Head is more couragable tune and Present well just a normal himself. Sometimes they also talk in sync

🕯With his 3 heads he can make a whole choir and yes he is the choir leader and have a beautiful angelic choir

🕯He never met his parents and grew at the orphanage which later he was orphaned by an ex royal Bishop and stand for him as his non biological father

🕯As holyman himself he is willing and hoping to guide the Queen herself and be back at being herself again

--------------------------------------

🪓Rook is a medieval executioner and based off on peg leg pete but he is more nicer to him (canon) he is a quiet one he almost rarely speaks and he is a non smiler one and intimadating. Despite all of that deep inside he is sweet as honey and soft boi.

🪓He is an expert on build things that's why he is a crafter and a smith people go to him and pay him to make such weapons and stuffs

🪓Since when he was a little cub-kitty he never see his real father but his mother has tragic back story so the only thing he has is her pendant and the stuff toy she stitch and give to him

🪓Secretively he has crush on the Lady Guillotine (Canonically) he was very self concious and fear that she will hate him for what occupation he has because he saw her as sweety what he didn't know it's they have the same feelings and situations

🪓 All because he was a quiet guy Pawns prank him much but Pawns regret that too cause they keep ending getting almost axe

🪓He hates the Queen however he still being noble to her and following her commands even he's bigger he's rank and power isn't enough for the Queen's

🪓He has fully respect on all souls especially the royal ones

🪓Legend says that his father might the King of Vikings from the other Land

🪓He is 15ft in height so yeah he is big hybrid bear boi

🪓His favorite foods is honey, fish sometimes they mix them

🪓Like what i said he is self concious, so even his mask is removable he wouldn't dare to remove it unless he was all by himself which his true face was hybrid of a cat and bear thing

🪓He also a Major Chess Piece that's why he hardball to be defeat

🪓He is the protector of the castle and the royal folks there especially at the King

--------------------------------------

👑👧The Queen herself is literally the Heart Queen from Alice In Wonderland (canon) one of her famous phrases is "Off with their heads!" Once she yell that here comes the executioner they like it or not. The Queen has a very greedy personality so greedy that she started to hate poors and lesser ones.

👑👧She also very selfish and hate rats as they see them as a dirty thieves that keep stealing her precious golds and they are poor. Well they have a reasonable sentence why they invade their castle and steal it

👑👧Some say she once a nice Queen but since she started oversee herself on power and wealth got into her she became corrupted and greedy. But her trueself was still in there out there she just keep denying it.

👑👧She won't let anyone or anything literally touch her stuffs especially her golds

👑👧Since she was corrupted he started mocking others and have overpride and ego to herself

👑👧She once loved but she was now hated and misunderstood

👑👧She stand around 9ft tall (big wowman)

👑👧She love lions as pets because they see them as a big brave cats and fluffy and she believes it brings her a luck

--------------------------------------

👑🙎‍♂️ The King himself based off on a King Of Hearts too even though he has lesser ranking he is full of intellegence and have a big heart

👑🙎‍♂️He has a role of a good king it's just other didn't get him much attention because Queen has more appealing appearance and greater power than him

👑🙎‍♂️He stands around 4ft (smallkingforakingsize)

👑🙎‍♂️He always wished that his ol' good wife will be back or someone just heal her

👑🙎‍♂️He love play games and be a winner well as a chess folk ofc it was in his nature to win and battle

👑🙎‍♂️Even he has lesser rank and power he know many fighting skills and always winning at the war

👑🙎‍♂️The King and King Dice knows each other and he also know the Devil himself

👑🙎‍♂️He stands for everyone as friend and family

--------------------------------------------------‐---

🏰Chess Folks that has floating heads it means they are high rankers and most respected by others (Queen & King Your Highness The Bishop Your Holiness)

🏰Less rankers has more removable heads comparison to highrankers

🏰Younger Pieces that has glowing pink heads are commons however the rare ones has different heads or shape like for ex Knight has a horse shape head he was rare

🏰They all have their own normal heights when it come to a play game they will get big

🏰If they were humans they all french and spanish people

[imptwins]

Okay but all of this is entirely in line with the 'Deltarune is the playerbase's desires' theory/vibe/whatever.

OP pointed it out a bit but I wanna elaborate: the fandom's idea of Asriel does not exist. The fandom has this idea of him as this perfect golden boy, but it's never seen. The only pre-Flowey example of him we get are the tapes with Chara, and many argue the epilogue conversation at the flower bed reflects the 'real' him.

In the tapes, yeah yeah, playful kid. But we also see him trying to get back at Chara for pranks, we see him wishing that he could be more detached, that he could laugh off difficult situations like Chara does (despite the odds of that being a nervous habit or a trauma response, see: Snowy). Through other dialogue we know that Chara was Asriel's first and only real friend... Even though monsters are overwhelmingly friendly. Why did the beloved Prince of the beloved King and Queen, in an exceedingly friendly society, have zero friends?

Then, in the epilogue, a line that sticks with me deeply: despite the fact that Chara was likely pleading with Asriel to let them defend themselves, and that Asriel's refusal cost them both their lives, Asriel condemns Chara's efforts, says they were 'not the greatest person,' and then says that Frisk is the kind of friend they always wish they'd had... Despite knowing Frisk for no time at all, thinking they were Chara for the entire journey until that point. Frisk doesn't even say enough to tell him their name. They're as close to a blank slate as Toby gets in his writing. How quick an 'innocent, faultless cinnamon roll' spits on Chara's memory for this reflective surface of a person.

And, finally, again something the OP touched on: we have no confirmation that Flowey is incapable of love. But we can directly disprove his claim that he doesn't feel anything. Through the whole story he constantly demonstrates sadism which is plainly a form of joy. In the geno route he shows fear. He shows more genuine enjoyment in the epilogue, claiming that it's just something that will wear off, with no backing. As OP mentioned, the alarm clock stuff further supports this.

I could go on about this forever but I'll relent lol

We have zero proof that Asriel ever was, ever would be, ever could be the flawless golden child of fanon, and far more evidence that the manipulative, selfish, guilt-tripping, blame-shifting 'persona' of Flowey/The Absolute God of Hyperdeath, is 'just' a result of garden variety (heheh) trauma and nothing supernatural, or what he would have been like anyway.

I will also spare you a lecture about how 'manipulative, selfish, guilt-tripping, and blame-shifting' all perfectly sum up the worst aspects of both his parents, though it does add yet more fuel to the idea that that's just plain, genuine, pure, Asriel.

How does this relate to Ralsei? Well, he's a remix of Asriel in a shape that probably never existed. There's a lot of very credible theories as to 'what' he is: whether he comes from Kris' subconscious, as a reflection of either their or society's or their idea of society's wishes, expectations, or regrets. The simple and easy and Normal biological little brother instead of the complex and difficult and strange adopted little sibling. Or he could come from Asriel, something he left behind to keep Kris company, or maybe even what Asriel wishes he was.

But he is not Asriel. Just like in Undertale there's little scraps of hints about Asriel's imperfections. I'll spare you that one too, but even the most rose-tinted version of him is (still) a crybaby, unsure of himself, in deep need of constant reassurances and validation. Seems to have trouble making friends. Ralsei, meanwhile, is an absolutely endless fount of self-sacrificing assistance and help and service. At most, this might be someone's idea of Asriel, but it is not Asriel.

And that's just Ralsei. I could also rant about how Kris is a reflection of the fandom's desire for a blank-slate self-insert vessel (lol) to act through (lol x2), how Susie is a reflection of their desire for the impression of meanness with the absence of any actual mean acts. How Noelle is their desire for the Perfect Victim, in comparison to Chara's demonization, even though her role in the Weird Route is a near perfect replica of the way Chara is corrupted through the No Mercy route, just without the ambiguity.

I won't, but the threat is there.

I don't even necessarily believe the idea that Deltarune is primarily intended as an analysis/depiction/dramatization/etc of fandom-skewed interpretations, but it's sure as hell a super juicy analysis angle. Especially for UTDR where every single fanon interpretation seems to be the most poetically tragic one. Looking at you especially, 'child with a martyr/blame-nexus complex who, after taking just 3 lives at the tail-end of a genocide, tells the audience they are a demon and the audience pins the whole damn thing on them.'

On 'saving' Asriel

I think the thing that gets me the most about the 'ralsei and/or deltarune is a creation that comes from our (as players) desires to save asriel, based on what little we really know of him' theory is like... If we did true pacifist, we already saved Asriel.

Let's talk about the epilogue.

No matter how Asriel spun it at the end of true pacifist, turning back into a flower didn't magically take away everything he learned and felt. He tells us not to reset again and to let frisk live their life, he says he can't go through all of that again.

And last year, Toby gave us the alarm clock app dialogue, where it was confirmed that Flowey also got to go to the surface. Look at his cute lil bow! He likes it.

I recommend taking a look through all of his dialogue here, it really shines a light on what he's like on the surface in a way that I think proves something - even if he lost feelings when he originally became a flower, this Flowey? He cares. He doesn't wanna show it, of course. He has a reputation to uphold in this timeline.

But he daydreams about the shiny new bike he wishes he could have for Christmas. He sees his mother passed out in the garage, tuckered out after partying and gets her back home and tucked in, and leaves her a glass of water as overfilled as he and chara always used to do it as kids. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if that bow he's wearing is from papyrus.

Yeah, Flowey doesn't wanna show he cares and hides it behind acting edgy and mean spirited in an almost tsundere fashion, but... Realistically, would a 'saved' Asriel be much different? I think people forget sometimes that Asriel was an asshole for most of his fight - he didn't just magically regain the ability to love and become the Sweet Golden Child we see him as. He wanted to keep killing us, to keep resetting and continuing the 'game'.

What really gave him pause was being reminded of his past, of growing up with chara and the love and kindness of his family. And, after telling himself he didn't feel anything for so long, and that he just wanted chara back because they could 'understand' him like this... Of course it was enough to break the dam. He was overwhelmed - he's not felt like this in so long, and it's so, so much. His capability to love didn't magically return as soon as he became a goat, so I don't think it'd have to immediately fade just bc he became a flower again, either. It's never outright stated as fact that you can't love without a soul, it's just his assumption.

But no matter what - this is a part of him. He's reset countless times, done everything he could think of, became desensitised to anything people would do or say or feel... He's seen it hundreds of times before, and it lost its charm. Flowey was always Asriel, and when he first woke as a flower he was still this scared, crybaby child who wanted his parents.

So let's say we 'saved' him in the undertale universe and he miraculously became a goat again... Then what? You think the twisted sense of humour he's developed over time is vanishing because he's a goat again? That he's gonna instantly unlearn acting like he doesn't care, or easily getting fed up with people are talking? Nah, not when he see settles, and can just be himself. Flowey is Asriel.

Think of the amalgamates. They were all people who fell down, and became victims of a life saving experiment that went horribly, horribly wrong and put them through something truly horrible for who-knows-how-long. But at the end of true pacifist? We welcomed them anyway, and they were accepted by their families even with how much they'd changed. They died and yet they got a second chance with their loved ones. We considered that enough.

Flowey is no different. Asriel died and became an amalgamate (albeit in a different way), but he got his second chance with his family. Sure, he doesn't have arms or legs now and he can't ride that bike, but he's still himself. He's still the kid who overfilled that glass because he was copying his sibling and he's still that little boy who loves his mother very much.

We already saved Asriel, and in a post epilogue world, he's going forth without the threat of resets and time loops, only one life left to enjoy and make the most out of, dialogue and friendships and people being fresh and new and one time only. He's fed up of our influence and wants undertale's world to be left in peace, player-free. He can work through it in his own way, and he will still be who he is, who he's grown up to be.

But bringing this back to deltarune, to the idea of us trying to 'save' him even now, by wanting more... Whatever we'd get back wouldn't be him, not really. We rejected that in persuit of an idealised version of him who never existed. Anything we get back wouldn't truly be the same character we spent so much time with in undertale.

That in itself feels like a tragedy.