#like they had the targs FIGHTING to get them into westeros and it only happened bc of a marriage pact lol 😭

[sukibenders]

"I'm part of House Targaryen!" "I want to be a Stark!" "I'm definitely a Lannister-"

Me, on my way to Dorne to be a Martell, even though I don't do well in the heat, because I don't want to deal with the foolishness that is THAT part of Westeros (I do want a dragon though!):

[horizon-verizon]

I see that you have a lot of knowledge and I have a question. Why don't they end the blockade of KL by sending Vhagar to burn the fleet? Why was a naval intervention necessary? Especially once Meleys dies.Was that space between his death and the search for riders not big enough? What was Aemond doing that he couldn't take 5 minutes and go?

(I'll be honest, the timeline confuses me a little)

Well, first, it wouldn't be "five minutes and go":

And this was the Gullet of Blackwater Bay, where the Velaryons made their blockade:

These are the plans the blacks made at the first black council, after Rhaenyra is forced to birth the stillborn Visenya ("The Blacks and the Greens"):

Here Daemon makes it clear that it'd be dumb for any green and their dragon to approach their waters or anywhere close to their castle with all their dragons as it would be also dumb for the blacks to try to take KL when the greens are still there.

If you see the distance b/t KL and Harrenhal, you'll see that it's a little longer than that b/t the closest waters to Driftmark and KL. Which is pretty far even for a single dragon ride. Aemond took a little more than two weeks to get to Harrenhal while sticking close to the main part of his army ("Rhaenyra Triumphant"):

So I believe that if he hadn't decided to stick to the army's pace or hold Vhagar back to a pace he thought would cover that army's best speed while not being "too slow" (which could have been still slower than he could get), it would have taken Aemond at least a 5-7 days to reach Harrenhal on dragonback if he really decided to go alone. Again, that's what i am guessing.

There's already a big thing abt dragon vs raven speed, how it's possible ravens can get to a place faster than an approaching dragon in the fandom (and my answer to that is that it takes a while for the armies that these riders amass and wait for to be ready to set out, while a person who has observed these plans can ready an already destination-knowing raven can send said raven before the actual army arrives at the same place...like what happened with Aemond, Daemon, Harrenhal. If you look through Targs and their wars, the dragonriders almost nearly never leave their army behind to preemptively attack, or those dragons usually fought right after the 2 separate armies made contact and fought "normally" until the dragon v dragons came out and I'm talking about Maegor vs Aegon the Uncrowned. Dragons vs other dragons fought above the still fighting armies or if there were only dragons on one side, that dragon would be flaming the other side as their armies fought that side....thus why they are so efficient).

Why does all this matter? Since the distances SEEMS pretty similar b/t KL and Driftmark/Dragonstone vs KL & Harrenhal, I BELIEVE that Aemond didn't want to get into close range with the blacks' dragons who were all on Dragonstone and the blockade blocked the Blackwater Bay from the Narrow Sea. Such proximity where he was closer to them than he was to DrStone w/o being able to flee faster than they could get him.

Or/and Aemond couldn't or was pressed to not leave behind KL defenseless (as he later does and finds out just a few days after he takes Harrenhal w/Cole) if he were to attack the blockade, as he wouldn't make it back in time to block the blacks and their dragons. Yeah, there was Sunfyre, but still the greens had less battle-useable dragons and it's not advisable to send out your ruling king to fight. Plus, Helaena was no warrior/was the Queen Consort.

Another idea is that maybe the greens wished to preserve the fleet for future use for if/when they expected to win, but I doubt it since Otto orchestrated the Triarchy smashing through and trying to destroy the same fleet.

"Westeros" can be used to refer to the continent and a portion of the continent designated as the "Seven Kingdoms", btw. "The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros" = "the territories of this continent" nearly similar to the purpose of "The United States of America" being a part fo the Americas but also sometimes referred to as just "America". Thought this random nugget was appropriate here rather than another non-ask post.

[vhaemystheberserker]

Can you tell us a little more about Maelyx and Maelesys? I'm in a chat with both of them and the discrepancy between them is very interesting. even more so with the dynamic that their parents developed! and considering that Selaena was married, what was their relationship with Taeceron like? From what I saw from the chat with Maelesys, she really yearns for the throne (I don't blame her, Viserys was the beginning of the decadence.) Sorry for asking so many questions, I'm just curious about these ocs🥹 (Oh, and a little about Taeceron?)

Ahhh, you don't need to apologize for asking about my OC's! I love talking about them 😈 I have made a second tumblr called @wulfricwashere and thats where I'll mostly be talking about my OC's, so you can definitely start sending any questions over there!

Their relationship with Taeceron was complicated to say the least, Taeceron isn't exactly fit to be a father, not because he's a bad man, but because he is a bit childlike, but thats probably because he was child himself when Selaena had the twins. Taeceron was only sixteen at the time. Although Selaena never slept with him, Taeceron also never clued in that you had to do the tango for someone to get pregnant, so he was as cheerful as ever, boasting about his wife being pregnant. Maelyx was a polite boy, so he maintained a somewhat good relationship with Taeceron, but he could never truly see Taeceron as a father figure, but more of an older brother because that was how Taeceron really acted when 'raising' the twins, Maelesys on the otherhand, *hates* Taeceron, she thinks he is useless and that he doesn't even make a good Prince let alone a good father, she even goes out of her way to make Taeceron cry and feel insecure about himself. She's nasty.

Taeceron has always been a bit immature, but with a good heart and good intentions, he likes music and dragon's, but never gained a dragon himself. Taeceron, as the lastborn son, was slightly disregarded when compared to his older brothers, especially since he showed more interest in banquets than battle's. Taeceron also thinks that holding a woman's hand is naughty 💀 He is skeptical about things, but he lacks smarts so anytime he is onto something, it is immediately disregarded as he can never find the proper evidence to back-up his suspicions. Taeceron never grew out of his immaturity and after Selaena's death, he never remarried, mostly because no Lord wanted to marry their daughter off to what they deemed a dim-witted man. Taeceron dies after Aemon but before Baelon due to an illness he caught after being touched by one of the Smallfolk of Kingslanding. Maelyx mourned, Maelesys did not.

Maelesys and Maelyx, despite being twins, definitely lack similarities, but Maelyx is the only person, aside from her father, that Maelesys trult cared about. Maelesys was extremely protective of Maelyx during their youth and adulthood, and kept in contact with him through letters after she was banished from Kings Landing, yet not Westeros, after too many outbursts. Maelyx always loved his sister, but he worried for her due to her violent tendencies and was devastated to see his sister grow even worse after their parents deaths, Maelyx would visit Maelesys when he could, but he had to cut down their visits after Viserys became King because he was busy taking care of Rhaenyra since Viserys was too busy trying to get sons out of Aemma, and eventually, when Viserys married Alicent and popped out more kids, Maelyx had to cut down his visits even more and his letters to try and take care of the Targ-Tower children aswell and raise them to be good people because he could already see the type of people they'd become under Alicent's care and Viserys' lack thereof. Unfortunately, he failed and the Dance of The Dragons happened.

Speaking of which, both Maelyx and Maelesys supported Rhaenyra during the war, but Maelesys was rarely allowed to fight on dragonback because she could get a bit out of hand at times whilst Maelyx acted as a diplomat and dragonrider. Eventually, Maelyx was killed after a fight with another dragonrider(mayhaps OC, mayhaps Canon, not too sure yet,) his dragons wings were torn apart and he fell from the sky alongside Steelefyre. Maelesys was enraged by this and laid waste to a few towns and approaching armies with her dragon, Beleraxes, and even a few Essosi cities before vanishing from Westeros and Essos alike.

As for Maelesys and the Throne, she definitely believe's she has some claim to it, and thinks Viserys was a shitty choice. Maelesys has no reason for wanting the Throne, other than control. She'd also, and I mean this seriously, she would be a tyrant, a bad one. They might have called Rhaenyra, Maegor with teats, but Maelesys might aswell be his reincarnation, maybe even worse 😭 Also, fun fact, Maelesys only supported Rhaenyra because Maelyx told her to, and because she likes to kill people, so it was a win for her and a win for Rhaenyra since she gained another dragonrider. Maelesys would only support whoever it was that Maelyx chose to support.

[backjustforberena]

I 100% believe Rhaenys would never approve of what was done to Helaena and her kids. Apart from the reasons you named, what Rhaenys said in the trailer tells us that she, like most of westeros, sees kinslaying as a terrible thing. I believe that's why she didn't fight for her claim to the throne (in both show and book canon). Not to mention the Targaryens back then were in much better terms with each other than Aegon and Rhaenyra; a war would've meant fighting her grandfather, her uncle (who was very close to Rhaenys's father), her cousins who were still young... Alysanne would have had to pick a side. Even if no member of the family died during the war, the victor would be forced to punish the other side in some way. When the Great Council happened Alysanne was dead which meant Rhaenys didn't have the support of any other Targ. The stability of the realm and house Targaryen would be threatened and however things turned out, the realm and history would probably remember her as a traitor/usurper. I mean Jaehaerys and Alysanne dedicated their lives to putting the realm back together after Maegor took the throne from his nephew, which also involved dragons fighting and Targs dying, Rhaenys would've known better than risking a repeat of that. In the show she probably thought Aegon and Rhaenyra would consider all this and hopefully work something out (especially after her talk with Alicent). Sadly I think that would've never happened, even without Luke's death.

Hi! Sorry for the delay in writing this, it was such a long ask that I wanted to be at my laptop to answer it and really give it some thought.

I agree with you. Rhaenys would never approve of what was done to Helaena and her children, and Alicent as well, as she was a part of it too. It's a horrible, immoral thing done to people who do not deserve it. It solves nothing, it only makes things more horrible, more ugly, more messy and more cursed.

I really like Rhaenys's line in the trailer. I love that she mentions kinslaying and, not just kinslaying, but kinslaying in conjunction with religion; with the Gods. I hope that's not all we get, I hope it's a real heart-to-heart with Rhaenys not just giving a warning, which is what she has done previously with Rhaenyra, but actively giving her advice and saying what she would do, in Rhaenyra's shoes. Or what she has done, previously, with her own claim. I think it's a very good explanation as to why she did not fight for her own claim and it'll be interesting to see if they expand on that and have Rhaenys talk about what that time was like for her - not only because it would be extremely relevant but also because it would be a really nice thing to understand her character a bit more.

I think it would be a lot messier if she had decided to fight when her uncle was declared heir over her (in the book). If Rhaenys had gone to war, there's no telling how the sides would have split. No way of saying who would be willing to fight, and therefore kill, against who would avoid it. And even the idea of who would fight on which side.

You didn't have Daemon as a dragon-rider at this point in time, but you had Alysanne, you had Jaehaerys, you had Baelon. Alysanne could do so many things: she could stay out of it, she could urge Rhaenys to reconsider and no more, she could urge Rhaenys to reconsider and fight on behalf of her husband and son and the Crown (for Rhaenys would be the "traitor"). Or else Alysanne could urge Jaehaerys to back down and do nothing else, or urge Jaehaerys to reconsider and fight on behalf of Rhaenys against her husband and her son and grandsons. That's just one person in the conflict. What would Baelon's feelings be? What would Jocelyn's be (as she is half-sister to the King, sister-in-law to Baelon, mother to Rhaenys)? All of them would be going against kin and battling for kin. It would be a total mess because they love each other.

But whilst I think that conflict would be muddier, I actually think that a fight following the Great Council would be deadlier. You don't have Jaehaerys, Alysanne or Baelon. You don't have people willing to compromise or such clear-cut factions that make it "to the death", nor do you have an empty Throne. You'd be fighting for Dragonstone and to be heir, not to be monarch. Whereas, if it were after the GC, you're fighting to be monarch. And there are only two dragon riders capable of engaging: Rhaenys and Daemon.

And we know Daemon has no issue with kinslaying, even at that point in his life, because he threatens it. He musters up a force to fight for his brother's claim and, make no mistake, if it had gone to war and he had had to fight for his brother then kinslaying would have to occur, by him. Rhaenys could spare Daemon and achieve victory. But Daemon could never spare Rhaenys to declare victory (on behalf of Viserys). And if can't spare Rhaenys then he can't spare her children either. He'd have to have Laenor and Laena dead as well in order to secure everything, not to mention crush the Velaryons.

Rhaenyra has no qualms going against Aegon because she doesn't care for him. They may as well be strangers. There's no problem with punishing Alicent or cutting off Otto's head because they don't share blood. I'm not sure how far "kinslaying" extends or what the rules are for any relations further afield than that (such as your half-niece or nephew, or your cousin who is also your half-nephew etc etc). Or the potency of the "curse" if, for example, someone else kills them but does it on your say-so. But either way, the question isn't with your own morality, but on your soul in the sight of the Gods. We call Aemond kinslayer, but Daemon is equally culpable, for he orders the death of his brother's grandson and kills his own nephew. Aegon commits it and threatens it a lot more. Rhaenys and Baela both give it a really good shot. Rhaenyra puts a bounty on her own kin, and is partially responsible for a whole host of dead kin. You get so far into war, who cares, you know? It's kill or be killed. Be a kinslayer or be killed by kin.

I think, as you say, in the show, Rhaenys still believes that war can be averted. She's seen, on both sides, a desire not to go to war. She's backing up the person on the Blacks that doesn't want war. Things are still retractable. Blood does not have to be shed, in her mind. It's idealistic, but not impossible. But, then, it becomes impossible. And, the irony is, once that war starts, she's not only the first to try to kin-slay, but the first one to be slain by kin.

[esther-dot]

Torrehn Stark bent the knee to Aegon Targ near Trident. Robert Baratheon killed Rhaegar at the battle of Trident. Joffery was attacked by Nymeria near Trident and Arya threw his sword into river. Dany dreamed herself in position of Rhaegar at battle of Trident and burning the usurpers. The Trident is basically showing feud between Starks and Dany. Also Joffery, a blonde incest prince, was singing to stark girl(Sansa) and talking about Rhaegar and the other stark girl defeated him.

I don't think I ever read meta on it, but there was a supposition that the Jon (Stark) v Dany (Targ) thing would end at the Trident because of the emphasis on it throughout the story. AGOT especially seemed to point to that because of how frequently it was referenced. We even have Dany's view of it

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. (AGOT, Daenerys I)

contrasted with Jon's view in their very first chapters:

Next had come King Robert himself, with Lady Stark on his arm. The king was a great disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks. He walked like a man half in his cups. (AGOT, Jon I)

It really does seem like a big reason for it is to make some connections between Dany/the Starks because this part:

"I hit him," she said, wonder in her voice. Now that it was over, it seemed like some strange dream that she had dreamed. "Ser Jorah, do you think … he'll be so angry when he gets back …" She shivered. "I woke the dragon, didn't I?"

Ser Jorah snorted. "Can you wake the dead, girl? Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, and he died on the Trident. Viserys is less than the shadow of a snake."

His blunt words startled her. It seemed as though all the things she had always believed were suddenly called into question. "You … you swore him your sword …" (AGOT, Daenerys III)

Makes me immediately think about Jon, who is Rhaegar’s son, a dragon, and he will rise from the dead, and will likely be the one to kill Dany, and maybe Martin will do that at the Trident. 

I had never really thought about how much the Trident comes up in Dany's chapters before. It’s a lot, and it’s a funny thing because even though she wasn’t there, Martin writes it as a personally meaningful, traumatizing event. That’s pretty fascinating when we think that Sansa (and Arya) are the ones who did experience something that haunts them there. That reminds me of how Dany has this idea of the injustice done to her family because she doesn’t truly know what happened (she has to learn from second hand sources) whereas the Starks know what happened to theirs. Dany’s father’s death saved countless lives, he was an unjust king who deserved death, but Arya and Sansa had to watch their beloved father die unjustly before them.

Oh shoot. This is a similar to how Dany romanticizes Rhaegar (because she didn’t know him) whereas the Starks knew Robb. Rhaegar died fighting for his father who needed to be removed from the throne (something it sounds like even he knew), whereas Robb was fighting for their father/freedom against an unjust king.

I’ve always thought of this story as having a major Stark v Lannister issue to resolve but I’m so caught up in the immediate context, but historically, we have the Stark v Targ issue, not just with Robert’s Rebellion, but with the initial conquering of Westeros, and since Dany is so far away/uninvolved with Westeros rn, this stuff is what will make the endgame of Jon/the Starks defeating her meaningful. It really will feel like reliving history, huh?

So many ways to look at this, lots and lots of intersections. I’ll have to pay more attention to the Trident stuff when reading from now on, anon.

Thank you for the message!

[agentrouka-blog]

1 I am somehow not convinced that Aegon is real. He's just another invader, like Dany. He will gain support, but whether he takes over KL is doubtful (D&D wouldn't have left Cersei on the throne, they're not that inventive). Martin wants to show what happens when people play with power, and Varys played; Tywin did; the Martells did; Tyrion did; Cersei will. And if Aegon is not real, then Ashara/Lemore is in it for revenge. It's bound to get very ugly; and a king of the ashes will come out of it.

2 And what strikes me is that Varys' speech at the end of ADWD shouts for Jon. The discarded one, who never believed he was special (unlike Aegon). He's the one who has learned the hard way; sacrificed himself for others (family); has the best interest of common people at heart (Free Folk); is about to fight a desperate war for saving humanity again. Jon is already too troubled to be burdened more and Aegon adds nothing to his arc. But we'll see how that goes.

Hi there!

I’m going to disagree firmly on both counts.

Aegon being real (which is only semi-relevant because he believes himself to be real, so all his emotions are equivalent to being real) makes way more of an impact.

He has personal connections that far surpass those of Dany, both to the Lannisters and the Starks:

Cersei thought she would marry Rhaegar and looked down on Elia

Tywin had Elia, Rhaenys and “Aegon” murdered to remove this very threat

Jaime killed the insane grandfather Aerys and felt terrible guilt over Rhaella’s abuse and failing Elia and her children

he is the legacy of Elia Martell, whose murder inspires basically the entire Dornish plotline, which is all tied up with the Lannisters

he is the one to whom the series title “A Song of Ice and Fire” is dedicated in the text

his caretakers actually lived through the rebellion and know the old court: JonCon, Ashara, Varys...

as a son of Dorne and Targaryens, he mirrors the good side of Aegon the Unlikely, unlike Dany who mirrors his bad ending (straw hat v. fire magic) and with his education (unlike Dany) he may actually lead to a short period of stability after facing off against the Lannisters, giving him the legitimacy of getting good results over simply having a claim

his father abandoned Elia to kidnap Lyanna, leading to the outbreak of the Rebellion, resulting in... Jon Snow

Ashara can even likely confirm the identity of Jon Snow and may potentially have been the mother of another dead cousin by Brandon Stark who died in Aegon’s place (!)

Jon Snow is his half-brother, and they have a lot of potential for both conflict and very reluctant bonding over being Rhaegar’s sons born for prophecy

unlike Dany, dutiful Aegon is actually likely to understand the War for the Dawn as his duty

What does Dany have to compare? She has no connection to a living family in Westeros, three advisors exiled in disgrace - and three dragons like the original invader. Many many people think about Aegon here or there because his death mattered to them at least in the abstract, but Dany? Eh. Everything boils down to her decision to invade. No one cares about her or her claim on a personal level.

Aegon is the heir Dany imagines herself to be, and he will “steal” her happy ending fantasy. Dany “the usurpers dogs stole our home” Targaryen will be instrumental in ending her own line. What could be more darkly poetic than that?

Darkness and abuse of power and vengeance? We have seen that. We will see more of it. A Targaryen hope spot rallying the continent on the brink? Not so much.

As for Jon, he is half-Targaryen, and there is only limited drama in this, considering he can rightfully assume that his father’s side is comprised of 100% vicious rampant idiots. There’s some self-loathing potential in this, sure, but it’s also not very deep.

If, however, you double down on his Robb trauma by giving him a literal half-brother who is pretty okay, there you have interesting connecting points. He can argue with Aegon about Northern independence, about kingship, about duty and about identity in a way that he would not be able to with Dany because she is either too volatile, too dangerous, too entitled or, frankly, too uneducated. He can contrast or mirror his choices with brother-king Robb, ruminate on what constitutes family (blood or experience) and - crucially - conclude that the Targaryen ancestry he carries is not a solid fate. He is neither a monster nor a hero for any of it. Only his choices determine that.

No one can understand his identity struggles the way Aegon can.

Dany will offer no such complexity. She is a 100% Targ incest baby and is coming on dragons. She is the bogeyman. If he sees her kill Aegon, he will know beyond a shadow of a doubt what he is facing, and everything that transpires from there will ride on those stakes. Big drama.

[une-nuit-pour-se-souvenir]

random thoughts about aegon vi and septa lemore

Apparently, it’s Aegon’s week. i don’t think i ever paticipated in these events for any character or pairing, but @agentrouka-blog​’s theory that septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne and that the baby switch was between Aegon and her rumoured child (instead of random kid) showed up on my dash today.

Lemore being Ashara Dayne and there having been baby switch like theorised would be fantastic, because she’d know a lot of stuff that is otherwise impossible to know. She knows who dishonoured her at Harrenhal (we all know Brandon, not Ned). She knows about Wylla, a wetnurse from the Dayne Household, who Eddard Stark and Edric Dayne both say is Jon’s mother (we all know Jon is Lyanna’s, so this apparent lie version being told by two different people who have nothing to do with one another seems to suggest a combined lie between Ned and the Daynes). She knows about Jon because Ned went to Starfall with him and (if baby switch theory is true), she can confirm Aegon VI is real.

There’s also the suspicious narrative choice of a “Targ” (not even, she has dark hair, not silver hair, even if she has purple eyes) getting with an impetuous Stark at Harrenhal and a secret child never really going anywhere. What’s the point of that besides shading Rhaegar plus Lyanna equals Jon? This I always thought was suspicious, but this theory would *poof* make it make sense.

TYRION III ~ ADWD

This is the chapter where Aegon VI Targaryen is first introduced. The whole chapter is like a “perigrination” to find him. I am of the opinion that Aegon VI is the real thing for a long time now and there’s evidence that might be the case in this very chapter where he’s introduced.

"How fares our lad?" asked Illyrio as the chests were being secured. Tyrion counted six, oaken chests with iron hasps. Duck shifted them easily enough, hoisting them on one shoulder.

This is shortly after the chapter starts. Not only Illyrio asks about Aegon, there’s also the imagery of six chests about. If Aegon is crowned king of Westeros, he’ll be Aegon VI Targaryen.

By imagery, Aegon is real.++

"There is a gift for the boy in one of the chests. Some candied ginger. He was always fond of it." Illyrio sounded oddly sad.

This is often used as a clue that Aegon VI is fake. Illyrio is expressing some sentimental attachment, so there are theories that he could be the father and the mother would be some Valyrian looking wife he has. it has its merits.

On the other hand, Aegon VI is on the run from the crown, hiding under a false identity and dyes his hair another colour, but most importantly in this passage, is Aegon’s fond of a specific sweet that what we would at first mistake for a father for the reasons pointed above gifts him with.

This is 1:1 what’s going on with Sansa, she’s on the run from the crown, hiding under a false identity and dyes her hair another colour, she’s fond of a specific sweet (lemoncakes) and Littlefinger, who’s pretending to be her father and is very... emotionally invested... in her, gifts her with some (well, in parternship with her cousin, but the cousin is another matter).

By parallel, Aegon is real.++

Tyrion craned his head to one side, and saw a boy standing on the roof of a low wooden building, waving a wide-brimmed straw hat. He was a lithe and well-made youth, with a lanky build and a shock of dark blue hair.

Aegon is inrroduced standing above the rest, literally high-standing.

By imagery, Aegon is real.++

An older couple with a Rhoynish cast to their features stood close beside the tiller, whilst a handsome septa in a soft white robe stepped through the cabin door and pushed a lock of dark brown hair from her eyes.

This is actually what I came for, Lemore.

Why a septa would be described as “handsome” when that should have no relevance since she’s supposed to be chaste (I know, it’s Tyrion, but still)? Ashara Dayne is described by many as being beautiful, arrestingly so. If Lemore is Ashara, “handsome” is a good way to describe her beauty still.

Lemore has dark brown hair. Ashara is described as having long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders. More importantly, Lemore's first actions is push her hair from her eyes. Like, pay attention to this woman’s eyes, even though they’re not described ever (not even their colour).

TYRION IV ~ ADWD

Tyrion had drunk himself blind his first night on the Shy Maid. The next day he awoke with dragons fighting in his skull.

So yes, the night after Tyrion meets Aegon and his party for the first time, he dreams of dragons fighting. Take note these are dragons, not a fake dragon in whatever way and a dragon.

By imagery, Aegon is real.++.

The clouds in the sky were aglow: pink and purple, maroon and gold, pearl and saffron. One looked like a dragon. Once a man has seen a dragon in flight, let him stay at home and tend his garden in content, someone had written once, for this wide world has no greater wonder. Tyrion scratched at his scar and tried to recall the author's name. Dragons had been much in his thoughts of late.

One of those clouds looks like a dragon. There’s no dragons with these colours BUT Targs have purple eyes and Viseryion, a dragon I believe is a narrative stand-in for Aegon VI, is described as cream and gold, so one colour here. Honestly, the important here is that Tyrion is associating dragons around Aegon.

By imagery, Aegon is real.++.

"Good morrow, Hugor." Septa Lemore had emerged in her white robes, cinched at the waist with a woven belt of seven colors. Her hair flowed loose about her shoulders. "How did you sleep?"

Holy shit.

“Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes.

"Fitfully, good lady. I dreamed of you again." A waking dream. He could not sleep, so he had eased a hand between his legs and imagined the septa atop him, breasts bouncing.

"A wicked dream, no doubt. You are a wicked man. Will you pray with me and ask forgiveness for your sins?"

Only if we pray in the fashion of the Summer Isles. "No, but do give the Maiden a long, sweet kiss for me."

Laughing, the septa walked to the prow of the boat. It was her custom to bathe in the river every morning.

"Plainly, this boat was not named for you," Tyrion called as she disrobed.

"The Mother and the Father made us in their image, Hugor. We should glory in our bodies, for they are the work of gods."

Yeah, it’s Tyrion, who’d sexualise a rock, but this is a septa who deserves respect. Yet, this is how the writer “paints” the reader’s first interaction with this new character. These are always the most striking moments when establishing a character and sex imagery is what the writer decided to do.

Also Lemore not only knows that Tyrion’s fantasising about having sex with her and doesn’t give a shit, she laughs instead, gets naked to bathe, and doesn’t give a shit if others look at her naked body. This doesn’t feel like a septa. I mean, I remember Mordane and the zealots at King’s Landing who screwed with Cersei. They have nothing on this.

The way she puts why she has no problems with naked bodies and the like also suggest some kind of “free spirit” which goes well with the (disgusting, but there) dornish wanton woman trope and being dishonoured by Brandon at Harrenhal.

Another thing to note, is that Tyrion also clearly says the “Shy Maid” wasn’t named after Lemore, which suggests she’s neither shy nor a maid. This is confirmed by her actions and by...

The dwarf watched Lemore slip into the water. The sight always made him hard. There was something wonderfully wicked about the thought of peeling the septa out of those chaste white robes and spreading her legs. Innocence despoiled, he thought … though Lemore was not near as innocent as she appeared. She had stretch marks on her belly that could only have come from childbirth.

Lemore was pregnant at one point!

When Lemore climbed back onto the deck, Tyrion savored the sight of water trickling between her breasts, her smooth skin glowing golden in the morning light. She was past forty, more handsome than pretty, but still easy on the eye. Being randy is the next best thing to being drunk, he decided. It made him feel as if he was still alive. "Did you see the turtle, Hugor?" the septa asked him, wringing water from her hair. "The big ridgeback?"

This disparity of behaviour between septa Lemore and any other septa in ASOIAF is VERY suspicious.  Note how Lemore has two mysteries about her already, she’s characterised nothing like any septa in ASOIAF (more like the tasteless “dornish wanton woman” sterotype instead) and a mystery child. What’s the point of that, if she’s irrelevant.

Compare how he Yandry and Ysilla couple is treated, where there are no bizarre things taking place that I noticed. Also Yandry and Ysilla are specifically said to be a pair of Dornish orphans. Why is the image of Dornish people here, along with Lemore? Suspicious, suspicious.

Lemore is “past fourty”. The asoiaf wiki lists Ashara Dayne as being born between 260AC and 269AC, which means that she’d be around this age if she had lived.

The imagery of a (false, but still) maidtaking a bath while men watch is the same as Florian and Jonquil song, an event that legend says happened at Maidenpool (close to... yes, that’s right, Harrenhal, where Ashara met Brandon).

"The turtles have their charms, I will allow. Nothing delights me so much as the sight of a nice pair of shapely … shells.

"Septa Lemore laughed. Like everyone else aboard the Shy Maid, she had her secrets. She was welcome to them. I do not want to know her, I only want to fuck her. She knew it too. As she hung her septa's crystal about her neck, to nestle in the cleft between her breasts, she teased him with a smile.

That’s not the behaviour of a septa and note the narrative acknowledgement that Lemore has secrets. She’s also called Lady instead of septa at some point in the narrative.

If this is Ashara, then Brandon met his match at Harrenhal. The waste, I can’t. What a sexy couple.

This chapter also contains Targ history as well as some Dorne (mother Rhoyne and whatnot). It goes well with Aegon is the real deal. But what really cinches it is the ending...

"It was him," cried Yandry. "The Old Man of the River."And why not?

Tyrion grinned. Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of kings.

The Old Man of the River is a lesser god, the son of Mother Rhoyne. These gods are all associated with Dorne.

Aegon is real.++.

Tyrion VI ~ ADWD

"Even the bravest of your forebears kept his Kingsguard close about him in times of peril." Lemore had changed out of her septa's robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant. Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I'd judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

Who is she, really... indeed... Lemore’s identity clearly is important.

She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide."

Why does Lemore need to hide? :)

[a-secret-bolton-vampire]

Been wanting to do this one for a long while. Thinking a lot about Fire and Blood because House of the Dragon is coming up, and there are quite a lot of parallels between the Dance of the Dragons and the main ASOIAF series. More below...

The Dance of the Dragons happened, in part, because the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's children was in question. Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey (how fitting, two bastard children named Joffrey) had brown hair instead of the typical silver-blonde hair of Targaryen and Velaryon children, and their father was not Laenor Velaryon, but rather Harwin Strong. Because of this, Rhaenyra's claim to the Iron Throne was contested, since her heirs would be bastards.

Not too dissimilar to the beginning of the War of the Five Kings, where Cersei, the beautiful queen of King Robert, fathered three bastard children in secret with her brother Jaime, all of them with the golden blond hair of the Lannisters. Then when Robert died, Joffrey ascended the throne, and Ned backed Stannis, who was in truth the rightful heir to the throne... we all know how that went of course. Also, while Rhaenyra's Joffrey was the youngest of the three, Cersei's Joffrey was the oldest of the three.

Rhaenyra and Cersei are very strong parallels. Rhaenyra was secretly involved in an affair with a family member (her uncle Daemon) whilst Cersei was involved in a secret affair with her own family member (brother Jaime). The difference, of course, being that Rhaenyra ended up marrying Daemon because Targs do Targ things, and Cersei just kept her affair with Jaime secret because they weren't Targs. In addition, Rhaenyra ended up losing all three of her children, becoming more and more bitter and distraught, becoming prone to paranoia.

Meanwhile, Cersei has thus far only lost Joffrey, but the valonqar prophecy states she will lose all three of her children. Like Rhaenyra, though, after the death of Joffrey, she does become more prone to paranoia and is increasingly bitter. Rhaenyra was eventually fed to Sunfyre by her half-brother Aegon. If Jaime is truly the valonqar, then Cersei might end up being killed by her brother as well. Eventually, Rhaenyra did end up becoming estranged from Daemon, and currently Cersei is estranged from Jaime.

However, a better Dance parallel with Cersei and Jaime is Rhaenyra and Criston Cole. They were lovers, a future queen with a member of the Kingsguard. They later suffered some sort of estrangement (the nature of which is a source of conflict in terms of what is real) that led to Criston eventually siding with the greens over the blacks during the Dance. Criston also was made Hand of the King, while Cersei presses for Jaime to be made Hand, but he refuses the position.

However, Rhaenyra isn't the only Cersei parallel. Alicent Hightower is another. Like Cersei, she supports her eldest son in claiming the throne against its lawful heir, and is the dowager queen of the former king... And she is the daughter of the Hand of the King, who is a member of one of the richest, most powerful families in the kingdoms. However, Rh

But the parallels run even deeper than that. It shocked me to see how far these go. The story of Aegon III and Viserys II as children is not too dissimilar to both the story of Daenerys and Viserys after Robert's Rebellion and some of the Stark children. Like Dany and Viserys, Viserys II ended up spending a lot of time in the Free Cities, specifically Lys, although he was captured in battle and returned as a hostage, whereas Dany and Viserys spent time in Illyrio's mansion as guests. Arya also went to Braavos, a Free City, but that's about where the similarities end so that isn't very intentional, I think.

Nonetheless, both Aegon and Viserys spent the majority of the war separated from each other and only reunited after it ended. Likewise, the Stark children were separated from each other for the majority of the war as well, and seem poised to reunite after the initial War of the Five Kings is over. And speaking of Starks, Aegon III does have a slight parallel with Bran.

As confirmed by George, Bran will be the King of Westeros by the end of the books, and there is a moniker given to him in the show that actually does appear in the books, of Bran the Broken. Meanwhile, at the end of the Dance, Aegon is now the King, and he is known as the Broken King, because of his extreme PTSD and depression from his traumatic experiences during the war.

Doesn't even end there. Now we get into some of, in my opinion, the biggest parallels with the Dance and ASOIAF proper. We all know about R+L=J, and the Dance has not one, but two big nods to this. First is the story told by Mushroom of when Jacaerys visited Winterfell. Supposedly, he fell in love with Cregan's bastard half-sister Sara Snow, and the two secretly wed before the Winterfell heart tree. Regardless of the validity of the story, Cregan and Jace did end up agreeing to what was called the Pact of Ice and Fire, wherein Jace's firstborn daughter would marry Cregan's son Rickon... son of a Targaryen king marrying the daughter of Lord Stark? Hmmm....

However, the other one is a lot more significant, to me anyways, and that would be the relationship between Crown Prince Aemond One-Eye and Alys Rivers. During the Dance, when Aemond took over Harrenhal, he took Alys Rivers as his paramour. The mysterious Alys was said to be a witch who was a bastard of House Strong, a House that has strong ties to the First Men. So, Valyrian crown prince and a First Man woman in love... but don't worry, it gets extremely apparent afterwards.

Aemond impregnates Alys and leaves her in a tower to go fight Daemon, during which Aemond is killed, leaving Alys all alone. Rhaegar impregnates Lyanna and leaves her in a tower to go fight Robert, during which Rhaegar is killed and leaves Alys all alone... then, years later, during winter, the Hand of the King Tyland Lannister tries to get together a force to retake Harrenhal, as it is held by brigands and thieves and broken men, only to find Alys there... with a young child she calls her and Aemond's trueborn son, and the rightful King of Westeros.

If that isn't enough for you, there is a very distinct similarity in the armour of Rhaegar and Aemond. Rhaegar's armour is mentioned to have been;

Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar Targaryen had worn black plate over golden ringmail when he cantered onto the lists.

And:

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate.

Compare this to Aemond's own armour.

Vhagar had come at last, and on her back rode the one-eyed Prince Aemond Targaryen, clad in nightblack armor chased with gold.

It seems clear to me that George is trying to tell us something. I think Aemond and Alys are a sort of dark mirror to Rhaegar and Lyanna. Rhaegar was considered a very noble, chivalrous prince who was well loved by the smallfolk, and Lyanna had a strong sense of Stark justice (as seen in the Knight of the Laughing Tree story). Meanwhile, Aemond was a narcissistic, psychopathic mass murderer who seems almost Ramsay-esque in his demeanour. And Alys seems more power hungry and eventually took over Harrenhal as its witch queen. But the fact they have what Alys claims to be their trueborn child and true king of Westeros does strongly suggest Rhaegar and Lyanna did eventually marry and Jon is their trueborn son, not a bastard.

I hoped I would be done by now, but there is still even more parallels. Cregan Stark and Eddard Stark are parallels and foils. Ned becomes Hand of the King and travels south to uncover who poisoned the previous Hand of the King, before the War of the Five Kings starts. Meanwhile, Cregan travels south and arrives at King's Landing after the Dance was over, then becomes Hand of the King to uncover who poisoned the previous king (Aegon II). However, while Ned was cautious and not really a big player of the game of thrones, Cregan was ambitious and knew what he was doing, even if his actions weren't always the best (attacking Storm's End, Oldtown, and Casterly Rock after the war was essentially over? Not a good idea, Stark).

The Regency of Aegon III in and of itself is a metacommentary to the writing process of ASOIAF. Originally, after GRRM finished ASOS, he decided to do a 5-year gap between that and what was to be ADWD. However, that ended up not working out, so he scrapped it all together. During that time, Tommen would've remained king, and his reign would be under a regency. So thus, Aegon III having a 5-year regency (from 131 to 136 AC) during that time alludes to that.

And then you get to Unwin Peake, my least favourite character in Fire and Blood. He appears to be a combination of Mace Tyrell and Randyll Tarly. Personality wise, he is very much like Randyll. He is a very outspoken misogynist, a very proud man, and a noted warrior wielding a Valyrian steel blade (that he likely stole from Tumbleton since Orphan-Maker was from House Roxton originally). He also changed out Aegon III's master-at-arms to be Gareth Long, who was a very harsh taskmaster, who routinely engaged in abusive tactics with the boys he trained when they didn't meet his expectations, including days without sleep, doused in tubs of ice water, being beat, and having their heads shaved, which is very reminiscent of Randyll's abuse of Sam as a child.

Unwin and Randyll also dealt with lawful punishment in very harsh ways, as seen by Randyll's treatment of those who break the law at Maidenpool, and Unwin's clearing the Red Keep cells during the Feast of Our Father Above. However, Unwin has a lot of similarities with Mace Tyrell as well. Mace is on the small council, and has routinely tried to engage in nepotism by implanting allies and family members of his into positions at the council and at King's Landing, including marrying Margaery to the king, becoming Hand of the King, having Paxter Redwyne be the lord admiral and Randyll Tarly the lord justiciar, try to bring his uncle Garth to become the new master of coin, and Garth's bastard sons to join the gold cloaks, not to mention the Conclave nearly sending his uncle Gormon to become the new Grand Maester (something Mace will surely approve of), Mace having his son Loras join the Kingsguard, and even try to betroth his heir Willas to Myrcella.

Meanwhile, Unwin engaged in much more rampant and unchecked nepotism. He was Hand of the King and Lord Regent, had Ser Gareth as master-at-arms at the Red Keep, since he was master-at-arms at Starpike, while his widowed aunt Clarice Osgrey was put in charge of Queen Jaehaera's household, Lord George Graceford (a member of the Caltrops that Peake himself was involved in) was appointed as the Lord Confessor, and Ser Victor Risley, the other surviving member of the Caltrops, was appointed to the position of the King's Justice.

He even dismissed Septon Eustace and replaced him with Septon Bernard, another relative of his. He also had his nephew Amaury and his bastard half-brother Ser Mervyn Flowers put onto the Kingsguard, while his uncle Gedmund was made the master of ships. Not to mention his attempted marriage between his daughter Myrielle and Aegon III. So basically the Peakes are the Tyrells of their day, trying to take control of the Seven Kingdoms and the Iron Throne.

And that is all that I can remember! I'm sure there is a lot more, but it's striking to see just how many parallels there are between the Dance and ASOIAF itself.

[janiedean]

if you ever wrote that rant about grrm making jon his chosen one deconstruction i'd be very happy to read it 👀

hello anon sorry for the lateness but here we go *deep breath*

sssooo, I had once ranted about it though not mentioning the thing I mentioned in those tags so lemme see if I can find the op and like... cp the main argument and amend it bc it was long, but okay so I found it, original anon asked me: why is Jon considered to be one of the most special characters grrm created? Why is he not the typical hero of fantasy books?, my original answer was here if anyone wants to go there but basically lemme just cp the first part making it shorter and then I'm adding:

first thing, the Typical Post-Tolkien Chosen One With A Shitty Life Before He Finds Out He Is Chosen™ character (I’m saying post-tolkien because every fantasy writer in existence who copies tolkien thinks that lotr went like that and instead it didn’t) usually goes through the following steps: his life sucks up until the beginning of the series, his family generally hates him/her or doesn’t appreciate them or abuses them or anyway doesn’t make their life easier and they’ve never known any different, but *something* never quite worked right and they always knew something was missing in their life, they just didn’t know why. suddenly someone who knows they were Chosen™ shows up and tells them that they’re actually Special because of this this and that and they have a quest to go on to save the world or something. our hero/heroine obviously is finally validated and while their quest is hard and full of hardships and maybe they lose a few friends along the way, finding out that they were Chosen gives their life meaning, they usually find love/friends/everything they didn’t have before until they fulfill the Prophecy™ and live more or less happily ever after, possibly after hooking up with the Person Of Their Dreams with whom they had UST up until the last twenty pages of the book. basically: being Chosen™ in regular fantasy novels is a good thing because suddenly you’re special and all the crap you suffered acquires a new meaning and in the end it made your life better.

jon snow is a complete overhaul of about everything in this sense because

instead of having a family who hates him he has a family who actually mostly loves him, and with ned it’s arguably so much that he risks royal treason by keeping him hidden from his *best friend* - sure, there’s cat and peripherally sansa, but his issues stem from the fact that he feels lesser because he’s a bastard (as far as he knows) and it’s a *class* issue, not a *my family hates me* issue not counting catelyn obv but that's what gives him freudian issues more on that in the emended part later

no one actually knows that he’s Chosen™ - like mel could get there and probably will and someone will put two and two together when his parentage comes out in the open, but he doesn’t have a gandalf or mentor who shows him The Way Towards His Quest

so instead of going from ‘my life sucks but I’m going on a quest which is gonna be a+’ he actively chooses to leave a fairly decent situation (a household he knows, siblings who love him - ned actually hoped he’d become robb’s counselor or right hand man or something from what we can gather) because he feels like he has to prove he’s better than his name and goes to the Crappiest Place In Westeros. like idk if people grasp it, but the wall is basically a prison and at the ripe age of fourteen he decides that it’s totally a good and honorable choice (his only choice actually) to go defend the realm in the freezing cold along with a bunch of criminals/derelicts/rejects of society

at which point he makes friends among said rejects and let’s remember that it’s the point where he actually has to do his first an only privilege when donal noye made him go like hey you were brought up with nobles these ppl are here because they stole bread, and that helps making him more into the person he is rn but like your tyopical fantasy hero who has had a shitty life doesn’t usually have to acknowledge that other people might have had it worse

then he goes on the Quest where he finds his first One True Love, and that’s where it turns even worse because usually the quest is where things start to go right for the Hero™, instead for jon they start to go wronger, because first he has to go undercover which pretty much tests most of his belief/code system, he falls in love with a girl he has to betray, half of his friends and his lord commander die along the way, while he’s off doing his thing winterfell gets taken/burned and robb dies when jon openly stated that he also was going to the wall to defend his family and keep them safe (yeaaah worked out real well), when he goes back to the wall he has to fight the people he lived with for months, the woman he loves dies in his arms and he can’t do anything about it and he’s aware it couldn’t have gone any other way, people put defending the wall on him and then put his loyalty in question, when stannis shows up with a legitimization (which is everything he ever wanted) he refuses because he doesn’t want to accidentally steal his siblings’s inheritance (which was what cat was so worried about hahaha) and actively chooses the crappy defending the realm life all over again. also in all this time his being Chosen™ hasn’t manifested or helped him in any way whatsoever - actually all his honor-moral code related baggage is what  moral dilemmas come from that. like, your usual chosen hero™ would always take the right decision and it all turns out good eventually, jon takes the morally right decision and it all turns SOUR eventually

at this point he finally gets elected LC, thanks to his friends also pitching in, which is about the one fantasy hero™ thing that’s happened for now. should be good, yes?

lol no, because he ends up with THAT hellish responsibility at sixteen, since he thinks that he has absolutely to be even better than that now and he has very specific notions about how you should lead and he knows he has to take unpopular decisions/decisions that he doesn’t necessarily like, he ends up either having to send his friends away forreal (sam) or detaching from them (pyp/grenn/the likes) and when as far as he knows he learns that his sister is married to ramsay he can’t do anything about it

never mind that it’s the same situation as when he had to pick the watch or robb in book one - he went there to defend his family and now being there actually prevents him from helping them in person. ops. meanwhile he’s trying to implement a new vision of things which is modern and smart and actually makes sense because why fighting the wildlings when you have ZOMBIES coming. your usual Chosen One™ would get people to approve just because he’s the Chosen One

instead jon gets stabbed to death - okay, that was also because he wanted to go get arya but it was the last straw, people were pissed over the wildlings plan first and foremost

so basically he’s gone through all the Chosen One™ steps but in reverse - he loses his family which did love him instead of finding another one that makes the first pale in comparison, he does find a new one who loves him but has to alienate most of its members for responsibility reasons as a consequence of what should have been the crowning achievement of his life choices (which eventually is NOT one), he falls in love and they don’t drag the UST forever but they never get a chance to be together without small print in between, he chooses the admittedly most masochistic life he could for his family as well and half of them die and he can’t do a thing for the other half, every other mentor-like figure he runs into after ned dies, instead of finding validation he ends up having to isolate himself and on top of everything HE STILL DOESN’T FUCKING KNOW HE’S THE CHOSEN ONE™

so instead of his life going better the more he learns stuff and matures as a person, he gets murdered. by the people he trusts and who were supposed to be his new family. haha?

never mind that when he finds out he’s the Chosen One™ it won’t bring him closure because all he ever wanted was being full stark like his father/siblings and then bam he’s going to find out his father’s actually targaryen and what does that even mean to him?

on top of that being AA will just be a pain because I don’t believe for a second he’s not going to get leftover ptsd and who the hell is gonna help him deal with it? or how is he ever getting over his *brothers* murdering him? and people are going to ask stuff of him all over again and he’s gonna have to go slay a mythical monster and if I know grrm it’s not gonna be fun, pretty or cathartic FOR HIM

on top of that, Chosen Hero™ fulfills the prophecy and gets a realm to rule and everyone lives happily ever after. money is that if jon does get that realm (and I think he is because he has the best claim if he's legitimate and most likely it'll turn out he was on the targ side but ROBB also legitimized him so he has double the legitimization), he’s going to hate every second of it and he’ll take it because a) duty, b) literally no one else is available, and like this guy didn’t want to rule a realm or be a king or anything he just wanted to be a stark, and instead he’s going to have to after all that shit thanks to Magical And Noble Heritage he hadn’t even known he had and probably didn’t even want up to that point because since when jon wanted to be a targ? yeah since never

obviously I hope he manages to be somewhat happy regardless because the alternative is too miserable, but basically being a Chosen Hero™ is what makes jon’s life worse rather than better and the fact that hew went through all the regular self-discovery journey for the fantasy hero list doesn’t mean he’s not flipping that over in his sl. the fact that he stayed a decent person more or less throughout it and that he hasn’t turned into a bitter asshole also doesn’t change the main point XD

tldr: jon snow is not a typical fantasy hero because he deconstructs that trope into tiny little bits same as robb deconstructed the arthurian flawless king hero trope

now ^^^^^ THAT was what I originally wrote for that meta but adding on to what I said in those tags

okay so... there is a certain tendency to also make the chosen one™ special in the sense that he's kind of goals - good looking, rich or set to inherit, gallant, takes the initiative, he's like.. social or anyway immediately makes friends etc and all that jazz which jon... doesn't really fit

like jon is an introvert who immediately makes friends just with outcasts and his siblings also bc he feels like one but he's hardly a social butterfly and charms everyone wherever he walks by

I mean ffs says all that the only person he charmed in that sense is stannis who is the literal only person in charge in the books who is more introvert than him and has worse communication issues and appreciates ppl going straight to the point

on top of that in the book he looks like ned.... and arya looks like ned and ned isn't described as being particularly handsome that was brandon so he's not even like... I mean kit h. is v. pretty and I think he was a good choice for the role and I'll die on the hill that he was born to play that character and he did it well but book!jon doesn't have that kinda pretty face so the concept that he's the HOT alternative to anyone to me is kind of iffy bc he's not

he's shit at social interactions and at PR which is why robb and him would have been a key winning ticket like he has a better idea of the larger picture but robb would have actually made sure ppl didn't turn against them bc he actually was good at that but like he doesn't go around rallying armies in his name does he

the one time he's been with a girl it was ygritte and like he courted her without realizing it and then she had to pursue him and he barely knew wtf to do on top of the fact that they slept with ghost in the middle of them like a sword which..... is.... I mean sleeping with the sword in the middle was a thing to make sure the maiden stayed a maiden and he's the one who is like i CAN'T HAVE SEX WITH HER EVEN IF I WANT TO BECAUSE I'M TECHNICALLY SPYING ON THEM like... he's not... gallant-knight coded

never mind that the moment they do the do she basically does everything until he decides to try the oral which I mean... isn't exactly alphadominatingmale out of jon which is not a given with the trope he's supposed to represent like he's not smooth he's not suave he's like WHAT THE FUCK when ygritte tells him he has a pretty face bc most likely no one else told him that and he like... doesn't pursue people like that in general which is also not exactly 100% what that trope usually goes for

we can add that he has a lot of passive-aggressive little shit sarcasm in him that they didn't let him go for in the show but like... usually chosen heroes™ don't think what he thinks about selyse in general

we can also add that he's not automatically above being better than his position like... he doesn't take winterfell bc ygritte is dead but he did think he'd have taken the deal sansa or not if stannis had said he could marry her and not val and if she wasn't dead, he basically went off the rails at the dude he was fighting with thinking about robb telling him that he couldn't be lord of wf because he was a bastard and he's absolutely not in the frame of mind of 'well I was born a bastard who cares it doesn't define me'

he's obsessed to the point of unhealthy with actually being defined by it which is why he was better off with the wildlings aka the only idiots in the realm who don't gaf about that

and that's like... I mean usually if chosen ones™ have parental issues it's like 'you were an orphan and raised by asses who weren't your parents but your parents loved you and you'll find out at some point and you'll be happier for it and make your own family', jon is like... he has the mommy freudian issues of the century bc of how cat treated him, on the other side he's obsessed with living up to ned's/his father's name and he hates that it makes him not-belonging or that he feels like he doesn't even if he does with his siblings, and at the same time when the truth about it comes out he's going to get the cold shower of the century bc like - he's spent all that time thinking BUT DID MY MOTHER WANT ME WHO WAS MY MOTHER and he's going to find out of who it was and how he was born and honestly considering that lyanna most likely did regret running with rhaegar the moment he finds that out and that she died birthing him how is he going to feel? - also he spends his life wanting to live up to his 'father's' name aka ned aka someone known to be honorable to a fault and then it turns out his bio father is... the dude who started that entire rebellion not doing a very honorable thing? - also if jon*erys is a thing idt that he'd take 'I fell in love with my aunt' so nonchalantly as he did in the show tldr: he's never gonna get over his parental issues in a short time and when that particular brick hits him in the face it won't be pretty

like the entire point of jon is that he goes through all the chosenone™ cursus honorum as we'd call it in high school when studying latin but each step that means smth good for the usual chosenone™ to him is something bad, being one is not going to make his life better and throughout the entire thing he does not fit that stereotype when it comes to look, personality, basic traits and familial history and like hell he's going to have the happy ending tied up with the bow - like I think he gets a bittersweet one and eventually goes off with the wildlings bc he belongs there after being jon snow first of his name (bc like hell he's not reclaiming his bastard background at the end of this entire mess I'm eating my hat if he doesn't) after splitting the seven realms and fixing things but that's hardly the neat happy ending the chosenone™ usually gets so that's my two cents

... christ this was long *raises hands*

[ladyandtheghost]

Three Queens. Three Endings.

The more I think about it, the more ironic it seems to me that Dany/Jonerys stans played the “best ending” Bingo for years leading up to the finale and lost not only to Sansa...

but also to...seriously...Cersei

Hands down, no one ever thought Cersei deserved a better ending than Dany. They both did horrible things. And yet, the writers opted to give Cersei - not a reprieve - but an actual bittersweet ending. And that at the cost of the Braime ship they’ve pushed for seasons on end. 

From what I can remember, in the time leading up to S8, Dany stans had several possible scenarios in mind for their fave, falling into two categories: 

1. The blinkers-wearing believers who actually thought Daenerys would get everything she wanted, beat Cersei, be beloved by all the people in Westeros as their saviour, marry Jon, be crowned queen, pregnant with their son and live happily ever after in the new Targ dynasty. 

2. The more realistic ones who knew GoT would never be as straight forward and they would never get their Disney ending, but believed that Dany would be pregnant, either die in childbirth or fighting heroically to save everyone, with Jon either trying to save her or at least professing or proving his love for her before she died. It’s tragic yes, but also romantic and bittersweet. 

None of these scenarios played out - at least not for Dany. 

It’s like D stans ticked all the right boxes for what will happen in the finale, but they were entirely wrong as to who it would happen for. Not only did D&D give Dany the most unredeemable ending and then had her ousted in the worst imaginable way (particularly for Jonerys stans), but adding insult to injury, they gave all the “good” versions of Dany’s outcome to the two other queens: 

Them: Dany will be crowned queen 

GoT: Sansa is crowned queen 

Them: Dany will be hailed as saviour 

GoT: Sansa is hailed as saviour of the North

Them: Dany will be pregnant by Jon

GoT: Cersei is pregnant by Jaime

Them: Jon will renounce Sansa and choose Dany  

GoT: Jaime renounces Brienne and chooses Cersei

Them: Jon will profess his undying love for Dany 

GoT: Jaime professes his undying love for Cersei

Them: Jon will prove his love for Dany 

GoT: Jon proved his love for Sansa and the Starks

Them: Jon will kill Sansa for Dany 

GoT: Jon kills Dany for Sansa

Them: Even though Dany messed up, Jon will still try to save her from herself and bring her and their baby to safety 

GoT: Cersei messed up but Jaime still tries to save her from herself and bring her and their baby to safety 

Them: Dany and Jon will both die together, knowing they love each other 

GoT: Cersei and Jaime both die together, knowing they love each other

Them: If Jon dies, he will die saving his queen 

GoT: Jaime died “saving his queen” (literal quote) 

Bonus: 

Them: Jon won’t mind that it’s incest, he loves Dany too much 

GoT: Jaime doesn’t mind that it’s incest, he loves Cersei too much...while Jon cringes away from his aunt

Again and again, blow by blow, the Disney ending (and even the more realistic ending) Dany and Jonerys stans had come up with was dismantled and the pieces given to other characters - other relationships that had more history and more depth. 

The fact that they gave Cersei the PRECISE ending that Dany stans had envisioned for Dany in case she does go dark: pregnant with boat baby and about to die but in Jon’s arms who chose ‘her’ over Sansa and all the others, doesn’t care that she is his aunt, doesn’t care what she did but loves her anyways and ready to die with her if he can’t save them. The two last Targaryens, united in love and death. 

Yeah. That was Cersei’s bittersweet ending. Not Dany’s. 

What does this mean for the books though? Was it all just a whim? Hardly. The Jaime - Jon parallels, e.g. King Slayer and Queen Slayer, will be even more pronounced. Jaime has already turned from Cersei in the books and never returned to her. But the books will surely give more focus to the conflict between Cersei and Sansa and Jonsa as the positive double of Jaime/Cersei. 

We shall see. 

In the show, though, one thing was made plain: Queen Sansa’s ending was sweet, Queen Cersei’s was bittersweet and Queen Daenerys...well...only bitter. 

[chillyravenart]

Thoughts on Seara Targaryen?

I've mentioned this briefly here but let me add a few more of my thoughts.

I feel like Saera is treated like some faultless feminist icon in the fandom (how surprising lmao) but let's be absolutely real here: she was a spoilt, headstrong princess who was never going to cave into societal/parental pressure. I’m personally not a fan at all but I want to list a few things about her personality and upbringing that may be of some use in understanding her better. Forgive my rambling in advance!

Princess Saera, three years younger, was a trial from the very start; tempestuous, demanding, disobedient. The first word she spoke was no, and she said it often and loudly. She refused to be weaned until past the age of four. Even as she ran about the castle, talking more than her siblings Vaegon and Daella combined, she wanted her mother’s milk, and raged and screamed whenever the queen dismissed another wetnurse. “Seven save us,” Alysanne whispered to the king one night, “when I look at her I see Aerea.” 

Not to forget, George loves hitting characters where it hurts and that's through their children. And George went in particularly hard with Jaehaerys and Alysanne's children. I absolutely adore the older bunch, Aemon, Baelon, Alyssa... but the younger bunch didn’t exactly speak to me the same way. I suppose with so many children, it was natural to have a few bad eggs, and Saera was one of them. Jaehaerys spoilt her as child and she grew up to be very bright but also had a cruel streak too. 

... and long before she was half-grown, Saera had learned the art of getting anything she wanted from her father: a kitten, a hound, a pony, a hawk, a horse (Jaehaerys did draw a firm line at the elephant). Queen Alysanne was far less gullible, however, and Septon Barth tells us that Saera’s sisters all misliked her to various degrees.

The border between innocent pranks, wanton mischief, and acts of malice is not always discerned by one so young, but there can be no doubt that the princess crossed it freely.

Septon Barth also commented on Saera’s disposition, and her hunger for the attention her older siblings received:

“She is the king’s daughter, and well aware of it. Servants see to her every need, though not always as quickly as she might like... If she were the king’s firstborn, or better still his only child, she would be well content. Instead she finds herself the ninthborn, with six living siblings who are older than her and even more adored.”

Saera pranked her sister Daella with cats and bees, dyed the KG cloaks pink, and would show up drunk to the sept for prayers. And since Saera had every whim granted to her, it's natural that she would want more from the world and succeeded in carving out her own kingdom across the Narrow Sea. I definitely don't think she would have been content with living a normal life in Westeros, married to some lord and running his house.

“She wants what she wants and she wants it now,” Grand Maester Elysar wrote of the princess in 69 AC, when she was only two. “Seven save us all when she is older. The Dragonkeepers had best lock up the dragons.” He had no notion how prophetic those words would be.

At fourteen, she told the king she meant to marry the Prince of Dorne, or perhaps the King Beyond the Wall, so she could be a queen “like Mother.”

By fifteen, Saera had other ideas however.

Why dream of distant monarchs when she could have as many squires, knights, and likely lords as she desired? Dozens danced attendance on her, but three soon emerged as favorites. Jonah Mooton was the heir to Maidenpool, Red Roy Connington was the fifteen-year-old Lord of Griffin’s Roost, and Braxton Beesbury, called Stinger, was a nineteen-year-old knight, the finest lance in the Reach...

And initially it was Queen Alysanne who voiced her dismay regarding Saera’s behaviour with her newly acquired suitors. “Saera is clever, but not wise” and she also criticised her choice of female companions as well as Beesbury/Stinger who was rumoured to have sired a bastard. However Jaehaerys brushed it off unconcerned that she would get up to any mischief at court with so many watching eyes. Unfortunately, he was wrong.

Then came the incident at the Blue Pearl with Tom Turnip, and her three favourite lordlings (including Stinger who later fought Jaehaerys in his trial by combat) which made matters worse. I highly doubt any other noble lord would have been ok with his daughter cavorting with household knights in a brothel- least of all a KING. When questioned about her actions, Saera really didn’t do herself any favours:

I could marry all three of them, why not? Why should I have just one husband? The Conqueror had two wives, and Maegor had six or eight.” She had gone too far. Jaehaerys rose to his feet and descended from the Iron Throne, his face a mask of rage. “You would compare yourself to Maegor? Is that who you aspire to be?”

After the horrors Jaehaerys and his siblings had endured under Maegor, it’s no wonder he was so shaken by her blase attitude. And again, Alysanne was able to soften his anger and reconcile him to forgive Saera, but she ran away that very night and tried to steal a dragon which sealed her fate.

Alysanne wept when she heard, for she knew her cause was hopeless. Jaehaerys was hard as stone. “Saera with a dragon,” was all he had to say. “Would she have taken Balerion as well, I wonder?”

One of my favourite aspects of this whole saga was Jaehaerys fighting Stinger for her honour, "This old man," just takes me out every single time. Forty-nine year old Jae, taking out nineteen year old Beesbury just reminds me too much of Daemon vs Aemond - WHY ARE FORTY-NINE YEAR OLD TARG MEN SO BADASS?

I also understand that Saera was a plot device to add filial conflict to Jaehaerys’ reign, after all a successful king doesn’t always make a successful father. Jaehaerys was the quintessential medieval monarch with a kingdom to run and keep in order after a very volatile period and Saera was a royal princess and expected to uphold those standards. As Grand Maester Elysar put it, “He was better with roads than with daughters.” I think Jaehaerys had his flaws for sure, but again, this is asoiaf and I really don’t understand how people expect paternal relationships to be as open and affectionate as they are today- seriously look at how fatherhood has evolved in the last fifty years alone and tell me a medieval king would have been braiding his daughter’s hair and having heart-to-hearts with her. He could have done more to understand her, but then we wouldn’t have this embittered storyline and everything would be hunky-dory. That’s not how GRRM works unfortunately.

I am certain Jaehaerys had loved her as a daughter, and her actions had caused him pain which had hardened his heart at the time. But it is also apparent later on that Jaehaerys was hit hard by this event and also mistook Alic*nt for Saera on his sickbed. I also feel heartbroken for Alysanne who lost so many of her children and felt Saera's loss very acutely too. She also became withdrawn and was clearly shaken by all the losses she had endured.

The years had taken their toll on him, and those who knew him well said that he was never the same after his daughter Saera had disgraced and then abandoned him. He had grown thinner, almost gaunt, and there was more grey than gold in his beard now, and in his hair.

The Old King sometimes mistook her for one of his daughters, calling her by their names; near the end, he grew certain she was his daughter Saera, returned to him from beyond the narrow sea.

Anyway I am glad Saera got to set up her own empire and lifestyle (Hot Girl Saera ™), she is arguably the first Targaryen entrepreneur of sorts too. She is most certainly not the feminist kween this fandom treats her as IMO, raise ya standards! Ultimately I wouldn't say I'm a fan mainly because her character didn’t appeal to me, particularly when I read Fire and Blood. Besides, Saera’s domain lies outside my circle of interest and I'm more concerned with what happens to subsequent characters in Westeros.

Hope that answered your question!

[horizon-verizon]

How are yall comparing Rhaenyra and Daenerys ?? Rhaenyra was literally born into power & grew up in the peak of the Targ dynasty; Daenerys grew up as an orphan, in exile, abused, assassins trying to murder her, and then was sold off as a sex slave when she was 13. Daenerys had to fight for everything her entire life, is leading a slaves’ revolution, and delayed her grand plan to claim her birthright in Westeros. Daenerys would support Rhaenyra’s claim but she would dislike her as a person.

Rhaenyra orders the murder of a teenage peasant girl, who is on HER side, because she’s jealous her noncey monster of a husband/uncle loved her more. She protected a man who sent assassins to behead a child before his mother’s eyes, a man who tortured a woman and drove her to insanity and suicide. Her actions should damn her for anyone with reading skills.

Her fight is only for herself, she does not want change and betterment for women, be they noble or common. She does not want women to rule after her, she just wants herself to live equal to a man without consequences and does not care for the smallfolk she calls “vermin” and “drunks and fools and gutter rats”. Idk who decided that these Targaryen women, who enact the same violence and patriarchal tyranny on other women as the men around them, are righteous feminist queens, made to suffer the greatest injustice in history because they don’t get to sit on a throne “owed” to them. They are no better than their male counterparts. They are spokes on the same damn wheel.

For all the hand wringing, Rhaenyra was the freest, most privileged woman in the realm, with a life and choices that almost every other woman would kill for, and she did fuck all with it for anyone but herself. (That too, poorly.)

EDITED POST (9/1/23)

Anon may be responding to my post HERE (I mention Daenerys and compare)....or maybe all the posts connected to the last HERE.

A)

I literally answer why I don't hate or dismiss Rhaenyra's arc totally despite this "Her fight is only for herself, she does not want change and betterment for women, be they noble or common" HERE and HERE. Basically because if I did, I'm more likely to ignore critcal details where it actually isn't as much of her fault certain events happened the way they did and therefore reaffirm the misogynist claim that she should have been deposed ALL ALONG AND FROM THE BEGINNING for any other male present.

We're going in damn circles. I really have nothing else to say to you about that point in particular.

B)

"Comparisons" do not have to mean "they are exactly alike or share many traits", it can refer to that specific process of getting information itself.

"Comparison" can be a shortening of "qualitative comparative analysis". "Compare" as in I put these characters side by side, make a Venn Diagram in my mind, and identify what similarities and differences they have.

C)

In POST #1, & POST #2, I already express how Daenerys is both Rhaenyra's moral superior and really why Rhaenyra even exists. I express this multiple times, actually.

The reason/motive for comparing Dany to Rhaenyra is to really, emphasize that what happens to Rhaneyra is misogyny and to contextualize Dany's own both in-world and meta role in the validity of a female ruler/protagonist. Because Dany yes morally surpasses some of her ancestors--in terms of having a better moral character in being a ruler who thinks what would be good for her people, noble or otherwise but mostly smallfolk--and wants to use her power for them more than for herself. At the same time, Rhaenyra was not an evil person before she lost so much, was betrayed, etc. She is a person, and people do not and will not react to the same or similar things in either the ideal or good ways. We can actually reveal how Rhaenyra's more self-involved or impetuous character didn't invite the misogyny, her gender did. It's not about looking for who is the better person and fuck everyone else who cannot or will not be the same; it's about seeing how they react, process, and shape their realities.

No matter what personality you may have or how it developed, if you are a woman pursuing power for others or for yourself, you are still a woman. You will still face people trying to end you for daring to pursue power, as Dany faces multiple times.

Dany is not just compassionate, yes. She is also very in tune with her instincts or intuition and is kind of a natural genius. Her character is exceptionality guided by compassion in spite of her hard suffering and knowing that she could alleviate some evil and suffering for others.

D)

I know you don't want to read my posts about Daemon and Nettles, but I also do not have to indulge your choice. Either read these posts: #1 AND #2, or read some those posts tagged "daemon and nettles" in my blog specifically see how and why I do not think Daemon loved Nettles more than Rhaenyra romantically or platonically. Or don't, not my problem.

BTW, we must keep in mind that for the plot itself and apart from shipping discourses, the point of the Nettles-Daemon controversy in the story was not whether or not they were having an affair. It's Rhaenrya THINKING they had an affair and her response to another, deeper sort of betrayal that even goes beyond regular cheating.

*EDIT* (8/21/23):

THIS is a great post by @mononijikayu about medieval queens, female rulers, the history of how women in leadership positions were made and seen as threats to the very structure of social "order", and contextualizing Rhaenyra thru Empress Matilda. I didn't even know about Matilda's husband being comparable to Rhaneyra's Daemon! PLZ READ!!!!

Excerpt:

just as much, along with these fictitious portrayals, more lies are depicted. these women are considered vixens that cause havoc to men by shifting them into desires and danger. through the written word, we see how women are cast in roles of villains in men’s lives. it is because by their conclusive thoughts, women are the only creatures that are able to turn ‘good honorable men’ into despicable creatures who do shameful, deplorable acts for the sake of women’s pleasures.  [...] it is within this narrative that ancient chroniclers declare that women were in fact the doom of men. if they were not able to control the dangers posed by the wiles of women, then the foundations of the mighty society they had built would be up in flames.  [...] as i mentioned, these factors of community are written down and preserved. and with that, the example of the ancients were the foundations by which medieval society built itself. the same concepts continued to cause the same issue within society and that was the exclusion of women from participating in the bigger picture of community and state, much so with governing states in their own right—without judgment or disapproval. 

[sayruq]

Genuine question, why do you think Aegon would do good for KL? He's a much better person than D, but like her, his claim is based on his imperialistic Targ legacy, and like her, he's invading and bringing war to an already war-torn country that hasn't asked for him. He'll probably end up fighting D in a new DotD, which will bring even more untold suffering to innocent smallfolk. I'm not asking this to hate, it just seems like his supporters have a very romanticized view of his possible reign.

true. like i have said before aegon isn’t inherently evil like some people claim but invading a war torn country is iffy at best. let us look at his opponents- the lannisters. they have killed thousands of civilians in the riverlands, deliberately destroyed their food supplies so that hundreds of thousands would starve during the winter, butchered thousands of soldiers in the red wedding, and engaged in slavery. clearly they should be removed from power and made to pay reparations but who can do it? the starks are scattered, the tyrells have chosen to hitch their wagon to the lannisters, stannis is in the north. aegon is the only person in any position to act. 

still he is doing it because he is a targaryen and he believes the iron throne is his, that is his intention but his impact might be positive. remember he is the cloth dragon that people cheer on- the smallfolk believe the lannisters are rotten hence why many join the High Sparrow. they have starved, they have lived in terror of sieges, they had their possessions taken in the name of taxation while they fled the riverlands. removing the lannisters is in their best interest.

like you said, it’s still bringing more war. we can see what the golden company is doing at the outskirts of the area under aegon and jonc’s control and very little of it is good. the truth is there never is a good war- robb’s army wasn’t gently traipsing through the westerlands. if the starks take the north, people will die and yet the boltons have to be removed. to some people, war is not a good options but sometimes it has to happen before things get better. sometimes you can’t negotiate with terrible people and convince them to vacate power. 

anyway you can’t blame aegon for dance of dragons 2.0. he doesn’t tell daenerys to cross the seas to invade westeros and he certainly didn’t hatch her wmds dragons. by the time he sits on the throne, he will be king of the south with a massive alliance behind him. maybe the moral thing is to give up the throne to avoid war but, based on what we saw in meereen, that isn’t going to save people. daenerys is a conqueror and not a ruler and maybe the only option is to fight her. 

[katastrophycal]

Okay y'all want full targ restoration au? Imagine a story with Rhaenys lives and raised by the Sand Snakes AND instead of Aegon living/Jon joining them give me a bastard Targaryen from either Aerys or Rhaegar combine it with Gendry's botched storyline of being a nobody raised to the throne...

Imagine the idea of this child (Let's call him Jaehaeron, after Jaehaerys I and Daeron II who are considered to be some of the best Targaryen kings). Jaehaeron, grew up a street rat (maybe we'll employ some of the Young Griff storyline and have him be a member of the Golden Company or have him be a sell sword with Daario) and knows the struggle of being lower class and fighting for a way to make something of himself. He's never had a family, anyone he's ever cared about he's lost, either to disease infighting, to the law etc. He's learned that he's just one of those people who doesn't get to be in a family.

Imagine him not knowing who he is, never known family and never wanting any, but he meets Daenerys. He joins her because he believes in her and her cause. He knows what it's like to fight for yourself but he wants to learn how to fight for those who can't do it themselves, and she seems like the right person to learn from. Daenerys knows the minute she sees him. Maybe she dreamt it, maybe she could see the ghost of her brother's in him, maybe blood just calls to blood. In any case, of course she hesitates at first to let him know. She gathers evidence from spies around the world, she studies his intentions/ his mannerisms/ his very heart to make sure that he's not like Viserys. And he's not, he's the first sign of home she's had in a long time. And she becomes his first taste of it, essentially granting him saftey to love people and not get killed over it.

Imagine Rhaenys training with the Snakes, surrounded by home and family, but still feeling like something is missing. Imagine her Uncle Oberyn bringing her news of Daenerys in Meereen. At first she's guilty for wanting to know her but Oberyn reassures her that no one can have too much family, in fact Daenerys across the sea might have too little. So she sets off, with the assurance that the full weight of Dorne is behind her. Imagine her meeting Daenerys, matching title for title and after the following silence grows to be too much Daenerys launches down from her seat and Rhaenys just knows that she's gained another sister. After hearing Jaehaeron's story she just gathers him up in her arms and bawls. While he can't replace Aegon, the hole in her chest labeled brother does shrink a little.

They work flawlessly together. Jaehaeron walks Rhaenys through life in Essos, maybe sprinkles in a little bit of personal stories. Dany and Rhae pour over the Targaryen history and tentatively start making plans for Valyria. Jay pretends to be not paying attention (he is) and he and Dany agree on most things and he actually sits in on a lot of her meetings with her citizens. They all have moments of impulsivity tempered with control, but generally Jaehaeron tends to be the patient one, he tends to wait for all the information to make a final decision. Daenerys has her ideals and her determination to make it happen. Rhaenys is very action oriented but also is aware that forgiveness can sometimes go a longer way than retribution.

He and Rhae both teach Daenerys how to fight. She comes out fighting best with an Arakh, which means after they teach the basics they bring in one of Daenerys' remaining Dothraki to teach her while they learn from Grey Worm (Missandei being taught as well) but generally the stick with the tools of their trades.

Daenerys introduces them to Viserion and Rhaegal and tells them of Drogon. As they grow closer to each other, they do so towards the dragons as well. You'd think Rhaenys would be drawn to Rhaegal but Rhaenys barely remembers her father so it's actually Viserion who she bonds with. In the right light his scales remind her of the sands of Dorne, his fire of the light that filtered through the tent she shared with the snakes, his eyes of each piece of gold she earned from their battles and conquests, and while she never knew Viserys she's not gonna let something like a bad namesake keep her from her dragon. Jaehaeron just thinks that Rhaegal exists to hate him. He shows no sign of interest towards Jay, so much so that it almost gives him a complex about not being a "true" Targaryen. But Jay is persistent. He's there whenever he can be, he's always the one to bring Rhaegal his meals, eventually he's able to get close enough to stroke the neck of Rhaegal and when they look into each other's eyes Jaehaeron realizes that it's not hatred or indifference, it's loneliness that's keeping Rhaegal from bonding with him. From then on Jay is in the line up the pyramid every day, to ask Dany to release the dragons from their cells.

Imagine if when Dany leaves on Drogon Tyrion does not start running things, Jay and Rhaenys do. Rhae judging from her experience and compassion, Jaehaeron from his knowledge on the ground and instincts. They take Tyrion's advice into account but also Missandei's, Grey Worm's, even Oberyn's opinions. Imagine Rhaenys truly getting to know the people, and slowly but surely she starts to fall in love with this land. Imagine Jay training the Meereeneans(?) Because the need to and because he doesn't want to see a single one of his citizens helpless. They follow in Dany's footsteps, ruling as she would, so when the slavers siege (because of course they would) the Targ's are ready for them. When Daenerys returns with the Dothraki she's met with her sister at the head of the Sand Snakes and the soldiers of Dorne. She sees her brother riding with the Second Sons and the Golden Company (who are now convinced honor is as good as gold). The battle for Meereen was over before it began, especially after the dragons join the fray. As soon as it's over Jaehaeron and Rhaenys are ecstatic (and also demand Dany teaches them how to ride).

Imagine if it's Oberyn who brings Olenna to Dany and her cause, and Yara knows Jay from years back so she's even more confident for her cause when she sees him at Daenerys' side. During her time away they managed to comission armor for the dragons and their riders. When Daenerys sets sail for Westeros her siblings are by her side, her dragons are safe above them, her best friends are at her back, and she has some of the wisest minds advising her (including/excluding Tyrion depending on how you feel about him). They have the Dothraki, the Unsullied, a decent amount of Ironborn, the Second Sons(with or without Daario depending on yada yada....), the Golden Company, and the whole Dornish army. They stayed long enough for the new Meereen Guard to have been sufficiently and leaders put in place. The citizen's hearts are behind their Targaryens and they know if they ever even fear trouble they will fly back to assure them.

Imagine that they do take King's Landing first. The dornish get the majority of the lower town evacuated before the gold cloaks even notice. The dragons decimate the scorpions early on, with only glancing blows thanks to the armor. Even the wildfire Cersei throws out as a last resort doesn't stop them and as the trio makes their way to the throne room they have to walk past the what little is left of Cersei's forces. They decide to pardon every soldier who bends the knee, the rest are set to work rebuilding the damage of the siege. Cersei is sentenced to execution, via dragonfire where the Sept of Baelor once stood.

Imagine that the Iron Throne does melt, but only enough to shape into a bench. Just like in Meereen, however this one is long enough to seat three. No arguments, no hesitation, the Targaryens work better as a family anyway.

They rule as one. They leave a small council in charge of King's Landing and set off to the rest of Westeros. They do meet some resistance but no one is strong enough to stand against them, and honestly after meeting them and hearing their vision no one even wants to. Then there's the north.

Depending on how anti stark you are you can visualize the war for the dawn however you like. But imagine them hearing through Jon's story, taking a stealth mission to observe the white walkers themselves. Imagine that in addition to granting them access to Dragonstone they also command soldiers from each kingdom. (Jon is... commanding troops? Attempting to make an alliance that doesn't have him bending the knee) Imagine a fleet of red Priestesses, giving their fire to each soldier (not just the dothraki cause why not??), Jorah fighting with Missandei and Grey Worm, and hiding Bran at the starks head table (which reminds us of Ned and how long it's been for all of them). Imagine not housing the innocents in the crypt (cause they have common sense) and actually send them to the godswood to be protected by some of their own soldiers but also Jay overhead on Rhaegal. Imagine Rhaenys on the front lines with Viserion lighting her way (no walker proof storyline=no Viserion death win-win). Imagine Danerys cutting the wights of from behind, and when spotting the night king she goes to meet him. (However you view the show end to the NK/the prince who was promised prophecy this is gonna Dany, sorry).

Imagine Jaehaeron fighting like hell for Winterfells innocents, dancing through the fire almost as though he's a part of it. Nothing seems to touch him. Imagine Rhaenys cutting through wights like paper, grinning from ear to ear cause she's riding on the battle high and the strength of the Sand Snake around her. Imagine that when Drogon's fire doesn't work, the Night King throws a sword into Dany's child's chest. She pulls it out of his chest plate(again thank you armor) and Drogon lights it ablaze. She meets the monster for blow. Seeing her in danger both Jaehaeron and Rhaenys make their way to her. Imagine the Night King dealing her a viscous blow but getting knocked down by a spear from Rhae and kept distracted by Jay. They give Dany enough time to stab the so called king in the back (mirroring when her father was lost and their kingdom was officially lost to them; all these years later her family is remade and the kingdom is theirs again). As Jon sees them from the remains of the wights, let's pretend no r+l=j or at least he doesn't know and if he found out there's no way he gets enough support to take the throne from them or feel the need to. He decides to bend the knee, only to find that the Targaryens don't really plan on keeping the kingdoms together, as they were anyway.

Being rulers does have its share of problems, especially as they dissolve the country into something more democratic but they make it work. One of them is always in Kings Landing, even with Rhaenys' frequent trips to Dorne and Meereen, Jaehaeron's explorations of Essos and his quest to rebuild Valyria, and Daenerys' continues mission to make every land truly free. They always make time for their people and each other.

And so while Daenerys is the Mother of Dragons she is also the Hero of the People, Rhaenys is the Fierce Queen from Dorne, and Jay is declared Jaehaeron the Fortunate and he cannot find reason to disagree. They each have their titles, their armies, their stories. But they also have each other. After all, the dragon has three heads.

[julibf]

WHY THE END OF GAME OF THRONES IS NOT WORKING FOR ME....

I told in some of my past metas, that I wrote after the show was done, why the ending was so unsatisfying and I am going to try to explain why here in some point. Its not because it was sad and heartbreaking, or some of our theories never really turned out to be true.

I am afraid to say, Its George RRM who is letting me down, not Benioff and Weiss. So lets start with the points that are making my head spin.

BRAN THE BROKEN KING

If accept Bran Stark as the final King of this story, I have to pretend I didnt read the past books A CLASH IF KINGS and a FEAST FOR CROWS, where we had very good contenders fighting for the Throne (Rob Stark, Renly Baratheon, Stannis Baratheon, Joffrey Baratheon, etc) Yes, some of those men were not so good from a moral point of view, but they brought strength, militar support, militar and political alliances, legitimate claims to the Throne...

I could go on and on and on. There is absolutely no reason for why would Yara Greyjoy would bend the knee to Brandon Stark and accept him as her leader and ruler; or the Prince of Dorne, or the Lords from the Westerlands. This choice is absolutely absurd and if you read the books you would know that picking a boy king, with no claim to the Throne or no powerful armies makes any sense at all. Whe we add the fact Bran had hardly any experience ruling or leading people during the 7 years of this story, this pic gets even more and more bizarre.Not to mention, I really dislike the idea that humans are incapable to control their own emotions, and because of that we must pick a God like creature with no emotions.

 I understand George wanted a surprising ending and he wanted to go against the expectations, but this choice is an utopia. I cant get behind this choice. I am sorry.

TYRION HAND OF THE KING

Again, do I have to pretend I didnt read the books and actually know that being a Kingslayer is a very terrible sin to carry on Westeros??? Tyrion is not a beloved figure in this story, even before he killed his own father, Tywin Lannister.

Tyrion decision to kill his father, not only started the downfall of House Lannister, it also made the entire region of the Westerlands political weaker and more vulnerable to future attacks.He must be a very despised figure in the entire realm. Yet, he will be the second person in charge of Westeros??

At this point I am at loss of words. I have no idea what George is planning with this.

JON KILLING DAENERYS AS A LOVER IS A TERRIBLE IDEA.

Awful, terrible, horrible idea. Any way you slice, this was a terrible idea to end such amazing novel. Its corny, outdated and down right dangerous, considering we live in a world where females are at risk of being murdered by their male partners all the time.

This is such underwhelming decision, in a sea of underwhelming decisions that I am starting to think George was simply trying to make us all hate this ending.

We could have the realm raising in Rebelion against the Queen of Ashes; we could have second Dance of Dragons; We could have Arya using her underused superpowers as a Faceless men to kill Daenerys. No, we will have Jon Snow, still making excuses for Daenerys terrible behavior, begging her to start acting better???? telling her she will always be his queen while putting a dagger into her heart!!!

Again, this ending is coming from George himself. I cant really blame the D’s for this mess.

JON SNOW AND DAENERYS TARGARYEN ROMANCE WAS ANOTHER TERRIBLE IDEA.

Awful, terrible, horrible idea. Any way you slice, this was a terrible idea to end such amazing novel. If you dont believe Political Jon theory, then Jon Snow is just a completely fool, who fell in love with a tyrant, closed his eyes to all her terrible behavior and in the end was forced to kill the love of his life to save humanity. He is a idiot. and it breaks my heart that this is how Jon Snow will be remembered by audiences.  Some people keep on telling me. “Oh, by, I dont think this is how George will write him, I think its going to be much better” But I have to say, I dont think it will.

I do believe Jon was playing Dany in the beginning of their romance and was manipulating her in order to use her dragons and armies to save the North, but I also believe that once he finds out she is his family too, he became a little torned between his Targ and Stark family. He is a family man in the end of the day and he must feel some sort of guilty for his actions towards D@ny.

I think that George will keep Political Jon hidden between the lines, just like the show did. He may write much better and be more obvious, but I dont think it will ever be revealed explicit to the audience. And this is what kills his character. If he doesnt reveal to the audience that Jon was playing Daenerys, than it seems Jon Snow never really learned anything from his past 10 years and it sucks!!

No matter how you slice it, if George will keep Jon’s actions hidden and make the audience believe he is madly in love with this entitled monster and will keep on defending her until the very end and this is the character assassination of Jon Snow.

If, he is madly in love with Dany and has to be told several times that he must kill her to save the world from her tyranny, he is an IDIOT who never learned a damn thing in his life. If he DOESNT love Dany, but out of duty still is loyal to her, and has to be told several times to kill her in order to save the world, he is an IDIOT who never fucking learns anything. I dont get what George is doing here. He is destroying the character he spend so much time bulding as a hero, but that's exactly what he wants to do it. Maybe there are NO HEROS. (what a shit message).

I wished Jon and Dany had been just allies and later became enemies. This would be a much better ending for both characters.

CHARACTERS ARCS THAT SEEMS POINTLESS BY THE END OF THE STORY....

Jaime can not put Cersei behind him and comes back to die with her in the end;

Jon Snow can never, ever, ever learn with his mistakes and is still struggling after so much pain and misery in his life, over duty and honour.

Jon Snow years and years learning to be a leader and ruler is absolutely pointless and he is sent back to the Wall, where he started???

Sansa, who dreamed about love and family all 5 novels, ends this story completely alone;

Arya, who desperate wanted to go back home since season 1, leaves once again, this time for good??? leaving her younger brother alone in the South (where Stark men dont do well), her sister alone in Winterfell and Jon all alone at the Wall. WHAT THE FUCK?????

Daenerys can never overcome her family tragedy of Fire and Blood, and becomes the monster her father was;

In fact, it seems that its impossible for humans to evolve and become better people than their parents, a God like creature must rule us all, otherwise we are lost. (I can not repeated enough times, what terrible message this ending is, and its no even true!!!!, we live in a world of no magic, and we were able to produce rules who brought us peace, progress and humanity.)

THE COMPLETE LACK OF JOY, LOVE AND HOPE....

What really got me by surprise in the end, it was how sterile and hopeless this entire story felt. George once said that he writes so much violence, deaths and rapes in his novels because it is part of real medieval life and would be a lie to avoid those themes in his books, but you know whats also real part of medieval life?? Marriages? Marriage alliances, happy normal ones, who produce children, heirs, LIFE, FUTURE!!!

Oh we had weddings on ASOIAF, but most of them ended in slaughter, death, rape, misery. I dont think we had one happy birth inthis entire story? Gilly had a child from her father rapist and Edmure was able to produce a child too, but his bride Roselin was actualy in tears when they had sex (because she was aware of the Red Wedding plans) 

What a miserable tale this was. Our heros never really get to experience real joy. They never get to fullfill their childhood dreams. But they do get to be raped and abused, so, maybe thats ALL IT REALLY happened in the medieal times. Oh wait, its not tue, The War of the Roses ended with the marriage of Henry Tutor and Elizabeth of York. They had a very happy marriage and produced several children. 

In our story, we dont get to have laughter, joy, happiness or hope for a future. We do get several pages of Theon being tortured and dismembered in the books; or Sansa being physically and mentally abused; or Jon being consumed by loneliness and grief. But I guess, thats all it happened in the medieval times, so..........

Funny thing is, you see, before the story started, marriages and children were a common occurence in Westeros. Ned and Cat had several children; Cersei and Robbert had 3; Lysa was able to produce a child too; The Tyrells keep on making babies, even God damn Lyanna Stark, who only spent a few months married to Rheagar, was able to had a child. What miracle, its almost like those events were normal facts in those days.

In our story, no House can produce children, even bastards!!! Jon, Theon and Tyrion had quite lots of sex during this story, yet no children was ever produced. Maybe all men in Westeros became sterile, once ASOIAF started it. 

AS YOU SEE....

By the end of the day, I am disappointed in George, not really the TV show, which is even more sadder. I think he wrote a very beautiful story, but his ending is taking away all my joy for those characters and this novel. I know he wanted avoid the expected and subvert the expectations, but he is shooting his own story in their foot. And its braking my heart.

What terrible way to end such fascinating tale...

“[Bran] will be a good ruler bc he’s inhuman - which is a very depressing message. GoT was always about the struggle between human good & human evil w/in each person. Bran being king suggests that the solution to human evil isn’t human good, it’s being not human.”  

ALT SHIFT X described in great words, how I felt about this ending, and you could sense his disappointment in the final message of this story too. It's was an extremely nihlistic ending. Westeros hasn't changed in facts it's worse politically. 

A SONG OF ICE ANF FIRE VS LORD OF THE RINGS....

Now, lets compare this to LORD OF THE RINGS ending, who also got a bittersweet ending. Remember, George RRM is always comparing those stories and believes he is having a conversation to Tolkien. 

Honest to God, in comparison LOTR looks like a Disney movie. It has a beautiful coronation ceremony, humanity came together to save the world from evil, and THEY TRIUMPHED!!!! There is JOY, LOVE, HOPE. Aragorn is King of the Reunited Kingdom, the people love and admire him (can we say the same about King Bran?) . 

He marries his childhood love, Arwen and produce an heir. This brings hope and a sense of future for the reader. This story is uplifting, its inspiring, its quite frankly, a good story. 

Its impossible not feel good about this story and the ending is one of the reasons this story has touched so many people, from all over the world and has remained a classic. Because, the tale of humanity coming together to defeat the evil is a theme that its always occurring in our life times. This is something that Tolkien experienced personally, having to fight in the WWII.

The nazis were defeated because several countries, put aside their differences and fought for the good of humanity and yes, it is possible. And after WWII we actually managed to achieve a lot of humans rights for several people who were considered less in the early century. 

In GOT there was no joy or celebration, no weddings to form new alliances; to make peace; no births to bring new heirs, to bring a hope for the future. In fact, most wedding in the show were always associated with death and pain. Death and pain, yes, there was a lot of death and pain in ASOAIF. Thats all it has to offer the reader and viewer? Death, pain and misery??

I understand that George wanted to do the different and not give what the reader really wanted. But I have to be honest to you, in my opinion, this was a unfulfilling, uninspiring, unpleasant story. I said a few times, i have no desire to re read those long books. This story brought me no joy. And I understand that, stories are not obliged to bring us joy, but, they are supposed to make sense. And, I just dont think the ending made a lot of sense for those who read the books. Hey, maybe that was our mistake. Hee

What sad story :/

[queen-of-songs]

Let me get this straight....

Just so we’re clear about this:

Sansa lived through =Joffrey, Cersei, Ramsay, and Littlefinger - seeing their patterns of tyranny, lust for power, disregard for others’ lives, and all sorts of abuse/manipulation.

The North hasn’t liked the idea of a Targ ruling them since Aegon the Conqueror- which is about 300 years. The seven kingdoms were doing fine before that.

A majority of the show has been about the North fighting for independence and to rule themselves.

They don’t want to be part of Southron politics. 7x02 - the Northern and Vale Lords didn’t like the idea of yet another Targ with dragons coming to Westeros. They were Targ “free” and for the most part up until the War of the 5 Kings, it was pretty good.

Sansa advised them to let the soldiers rest and to not rush into battle. Maybe she remembers that no Southron army has ventured beyond the Neck. They would have an advantage as the Golden Company & the Lannister army don’t know the North and a battle could’ve been won possibly at Riverrun without all the unnecessary bloodshed.

Sansa told /Tyrion guessed about Jon’s true parentage because she wants to protect him. She could care less about ruling- she’s been offered power for the last three seasons and she has said no. She wants her family and people to be safe.

Besides Ned, Jon is the only good ruler Sansa has lived under. She wants people to have a ruler who genuinely cares for their well-being and doesn’t lust for power. Someone who is strong, brave, and gentle aka Jon Snow.

It doesn’t help DTQ has been told all her life that there are people who’d die for Targ Restoration and wait with baited breath to see them rule again. She comes to Westeros -the North doesn’t like her which goes way back to Aegon the Conqueror. She finds out someone has a stronger claim than her and almost everyone loves him. His family doesn’t really like her. She goes to King’s Landing and the people are afraid of her. Why wouldn’t they be?

They had Joffrey whose reign resulted in a food riot where people were pulled apart-eaten alive along with other vile things plus the Battle of Blackwater. They had Tommen whose reign resulted in the Faith of the Seven punishing people harshly for their sins with walks of shame and their foreheads branded as if they were cattle. They had Cersei who blew up the Sept- killing a bunch of people.

So when they see a full grown dragon and three armies coming into their city as they’re fleeing to the Red Keep, they’re not thinking they’re getting saved. They’re thinking their lives are going to be in danger yet again.

Sansa is getting blamed for their deaths and I don’t get it. She warned Jon and Tyrion against this. She knows the signs of a tyrant as she’s lived under 4!

Even if Sansa didn’t tell/Tyrion didn’t guess the parentage of Jon, I still think what happened would’ve happened.

When someone doesn’t get the reaction they were wanting/expecting, it’s going to throw them off. It’s going to gnaw at their emotions. They will either become a people pleaser to get people to like them or disregard what people think of them and do whatever they want.

Comparison is the thief of joy.

Honest Sidenote- I do wish they hadn’t done jealousy stuff with Sansa towards DTQ if Jonsa isn’t going to happen. What’s the point? It just puts further hate on Sansa.

Here’s the problem: Sansa has an attachment to Jon- a big one. He’s/was her “person.”

Sadly, how would the audience know that with the writing of their relationship. Most of the GA think: She’s going to betray him. Oh, she’s a b***h! She only wants power for herself! She’s Littlefinger 2.0! etc.

My fellow Jonsas - The Sun Will Shine On Us Again🌻