#like the fandom (like many) already had a whitewashing problem | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

moistvonlipwig · 7 months ago

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hypothetically if i just sent you every heart in that ask as a lovely littlel rainbow…??? :D

I'm assuming for Supergirl again? ;)

I cut out a few that I just didn't have an answer for at all. The rest are under the cut. Again, kvetching about a CW superhero show awaits.

❤: Which character do you think is the most egregiously mischaracterized by the fandom?

I have had to click out of so many fics because they feel the need to get in a throwaway dig at James that often has absolutely nothing to do with his canon characterization. ("He was only interested in Lena because he liked the prestige and perks of dating a billionaire!" No??? Wrong??? Do not pass Go??? Do not collect $200???)

🧡: What is a popular (serious) theory you disagree with?

I don't agree with the idea that Kara is some sort of "genius" just because she's from Krypton. Being from a more '''advanced''' society (which is a thorny and problematic label in and of itself) does not make you ''smarter" than people from a '''less advanced''' society (see what I mean? Thorny and problematic). Living in a society with hyper-advanced technology doesn't mean that you know how that technology works or the fundamental principles that underlie its construction, especially if you are 13 years old. Also, even if you did, that is not inherently a more valuable form of knowledge than, say, knowing how to make dumplings – a skill I'm sure Kara herself would say is incredibly valuable, and which Kryptonians do not possess.

And that's not even getting into the fact that knowledge itself isn't the same thing as intelligence, which is a hard-to-define concept that has been historically used and still is used today in deeply problematic ways, but which I would argue is more about creativity, imagination, and the ability to generate new solutions to problems given the resources and education available to you than it is about simply knowing stuff. I certainly wish we got to see Kara display her resourcefulness, knowledge, & skills more often on the show, but fandom's insistence that she's actually way smarter than all these silly backwards primitive humans because she's from a planet that's made certain scientific advancements is incredibly fucking weird and frankly strikes me as the product of a colonialist mindset.

(I also just kind of think it's an uninteresting take on her character? She already has so many incredible abilities and interesting character traits, why does she ALSO have to be a "genius" who can rival Brainy & Lena in scientific thinking?)

💛: What is a popular ship you just can’t get behind, and why?

Supercat, for all the reasons I listed in my other post, and Sanvers, because the whole whitewashing thing is really egregious to me and also the way they were written just kind of grated on my nerves. Also Agentcorp. No real reason, I have no zingers to deliver about it. I just don't see it.

💚: What does everyone else get wrong about your favorite character?

You and I have already talked about how I don't actually think Lena has a "one-strike policy", and how the only person she actually cut off after only one strike was Andrea, whose betrayal came at a time when Lena was extremely vulnerable. I believe I've also mentioned to you in an ask that I think people read her politics wrong -- a lot of people classify her as a conservative when she is, IMO, clearly a libertarian, hence her pro-business, pro-gun, anti-secret government agencies, generally socially progressive views. (Additionally, one of the quirks of Supergirl's casting is that they accidentally cast all of Lena's past friends/lovers as people of color, which has some truly fascinating implications about Lena's racial politics.)

🤍: Which character is not as morally bad as everyone else seems to think?

Lena is the obvious answer, although the real truth about Lena is that she is, actually, quite morally all over the place, it's just that she's not any more morally all over the place than anyone else on the show. Andrea, also, I think gets a bad rap from some people and from the show itself, which I talked more about in my other post. Um...I don't think Clark is a bad person for leaving Kara with the Danverses? To quote one of Once Upon a Time's most repeated lines, he gave her her best chance. He wasn't ready to parent her and he knew it -- I think that takes real integrity to admit, actually. Does that mean Kara can't have complicated feelings about it? Of course not, but I don't think it's fair to say he "abandoned" her. Placing a child in a loving home is not "abandoning" them. It's quite the opposite.

(The Clark situation admittedly gets worse post-Crisis when suddenly he has two teenage sons who would've been born around the time Kara's pod landed, which means maybe Earth Prime Clark was down for being a parent but just didn't want to parent Kara specifically, which is much more dubious. But also, Crisis was very bad, so I prefer not to think about it.)

💔: If you had to remove one major character from the series, who would you choose?

I guess it depends on if my options are "remove them vs. change how they were written" or "remove them vs. keep them as is"? If I have to keep them as is if I don't remove them, then the clear answer is Mon-El, whose presence I would argue damaged the show more irrevocably than any other writing decision.

If I can change how they were written, that's a different story -- Mon-El in the comics is a cool character and I think the show could've adapted his story in a genuinely interesting way. Imagine if, in S2, Kara had discovered a pod with an amnesiac child inside who appeared to be Kryptonian. Not only is she now just a little less alone, she now has a chance to make amends for her inability to take care of Clark! Except then we find out -- he's not Kryptonian, he's a Daxamite. The same species as Kryptonians, but they left Krypton ages ago (or were driven out -- perhaps the stories Kara was told as a child didn't tell the entire truth) and are known to be isolationist and xenophobic, with a particular hatred for Kryptonians. The Daxamite boy (who Kara named "Mon-El") gets accidentally exposed to lead, and Kara must banish him the way she herself was banished. Then, S3 comes along, and would you look at that - the Legion of Super-Heroes is here from the future! And their leader is none other than Kara's adopted baby brother Mon-El, now grown up and with all his memories returned to him. Cue drama! (While I'm making up a version of Supergirl that didn't exist, I'd also like this version of Mon-El to be Asian. We truly didn't need more white guys on this show.)

So if I were allowed to rewrite characters like that, I'd have to opt for getting rid of a character who wasn't just executed poorly, but conceived poorly as well. William is a pretty obvious choice, as they clearly only created him to be a love interest and had no earthly idea what to do with him when that didn't work out (or, well, at any point in time, actually). Even when the show moves him away from his S5 misogyny and his (kind of baffling, given how little effort she puts into the job he values so much) late S5-early S6 interest in Kara, the only character trait they can think up for him is "baking", which kind of says it all, really. Winn, I feel, is also extraneous; even if you get rid of his misogyny in S1, I just don't think we needed a nerdy white guy character. Lena and Brainy have the scientist role covered. So, IDK, either of them, I don't care lol.

💕: What is an unpopular ship that you like?

I already talked about Guardiancorp in my previous post and that's probably my only actually unpopular ship. ¯\_(��)_/¯

💀: If you had to choose one major character to die, who would you choose?

I don't think killing characters off truly fits with the vibe of the show, which is one of a long list of reasons why William's death was bad. If I could instead put a character on a bus, it'd probably be J'onn -- they clearly ran out of ideas for his character partway through the show (and David Harewood frankly seemed to run out of interest in portraying the character as well). Which, honestly, that usually happens with older male mentor figures in shows about young women coming into their own -- look at Giles post-S5 on Buffy, for example. IMO both M'gann and Malefic (both of whom actually did get put on buses to Mars in the show proper) would be much more interesting Martians to have on the show full-time.

#there is certainly less biting and maiming in this one but there still is some. be warned #up up and away #sideguitars

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abyssal-debonair · 1 year ago

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so here’s what’s been going on:

a couple days ago on July 2nd, TGC, again, retweeted fanart featuring whitewashed characters, this time white skykids. now, I’m not on Twitter much anymore, but I was that day. I was among others who commented how offensive it was for TGC to be promoting artwork that utilized this racist practice.

at first came the usual opposition, I gave my piece, then the convo died down. thought that was the end of it. by the next day, it picked up again with an incredibly mean-spirited tone — insults, bad faith takes, attempts to shame my friends and I. it was pretty disgusting.

eventually another Twitter user reached out to me and shared a Reddit link. someone had reposted a few of our tweets without censoring our usernames to r/skychildrenoflight (an unofficial subreddit not affiliated with TGC) with full intent to mock and deride us. that post currently sits on the subreddit with over 250 upvotes and over 200 comments, the vast majority of which are so stupid, asinine, and unsurprisingly racist. it explains how the discussion picked up again — the thread had been brigaded, my friends and I were being harassed.

I’m not here to talk about why this is an instance of whitewashing and why it is bad — I have already done that, though it’s overdue for me to make a more comprehensive, eloquent write-up.

Sky is a wonderful game. I love Sky, I love the world, I have invested so much creative energy into it. I love playing music on the game. I have multiple fics in the works. I used to engage with lorechat in Skycord on the regular, enjoying sharing my thoughts and discussing theories with others there. I am always fascinated by the artwork the community produces, even started trying to draw myself. the fanart TGC retweeted the other day isn’t even that bad compositionally — the artist is incredibly talented — the problem is the whitewashing that is all too common here.

I have never been in a fandom where a disgustingly racist practice, among others, was so accepted. I have never been in a fandom that harbored bigots who were so hateful towards the kinds of people Sky normalized, that they were playing as and interacted with. this community frequently proclaims itself as welcoming, diverse, and wholesome, but those words are hollow when many perpetuate bigotry then attack those who call it out, saying “it doesn’t exist here” and “you’re making shit up to get mad at” and “your ancestors would be ashamed of you.”

on that last one, I should mention that the commentary got disgustingly personal. I stated that I was Black in the Twitter thread, which many latched on to. they said I was entitled, never faced real racism, was a child, was pulling the race card, was “the real racist,” was why Black people are not taken seriously in discourse.

I shouldn’t have to mention that I have faced racism irl, including violence, including followed by a police officer on campus in the dark that could have ended poorly. I shouldn’t have to mention the racist harassment I have faced both online and offline. I play Sky and engage with its community because the game gave me the idea that I could escape the world that hated me for one where I felt seen and welcomed. if someone was being hateful, adding more to pile of bigotry I have to fucking live with, I thought I would have the backing of the community to support me when I fought back. I was wrong.

what happened over the last couple of days exposed me to some of the worst the Sky community has to offer and it didn’t even surprise me.

it is well documented how people of color like myself are mistreated in white-dominated spaces. our discomfort is viciously denied as false or exaggerated. we are told to suck it up because fandom is supposed to be enjoyed, an escape, “don’t bring politics in here.” except fandom perpetuates the same problems we are trying to escape from. we are not given a damn break.

#sky children of the light #sky: children of the light #discourse #vent ////#me speaking #tw racism

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k4ijynxx · 4 months ago

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Note: i am not a person of color, race, or ethnicity, and i am simply speaking from heart. Although my voice is important, always remember to listen to the people that are the main topic and to not talk over them. Also, if i say anything wrong, please correct me!

This is very much what i was thinking. Im not in the Genshin fandom even when i play it, but it always rubbed me the wrong way when it comes to some of the designs. Many Sumeru characters, even ones that have darker skin, seem to be very whitewashed. I didnt put too much thought into some of the others, though, but looking back many characters that are from places with POC backgrounds have very light skin.

Also, the culture is very strange. Some characters have main elements from their culture while others do not. Nahida looks NOTHING like what she is based off of, yet there are MANY characters that have more focused elements of their culture put onto them. I will say thought that i actually didn’t know that Nahida was based off of that god, that is really awesome!! It makes me want to do some studies on what the characters are based on, because that would be a really cool deep dive. I very much feel like Nahida is VERY underplayed, they could have given her multiple arms, culturally diverse hair, more jewelry and clothing based off of the god or culture, or even put some of the gods lore and backstory with the culture, but i doubt they did that because it seems very off (although i could be wrong)

I feel like this character (the only character that i am kind of familiar with) was done pretty well! Where im from, when africa is represented, it is very bland and dull in color and personality, so seeing a character that is more upbeat and shiny is awesome to see! I also like some of the cultural aspects, the fact that is it showing some surfing is awesome, the markings on the body looks neat, the braids look SICK and the idea of basing her off a seal is really cool! I do feel like the color of her skin is VERY whitewashed, though. I might do a edit of her, but im not good at editing but DAMN IT ILL TRY. I could be wrong, as i dont know what the POC community think about her, but she seems to be a cool concept considering she is a mix of both non-stereotypical representation in POC culture, as well as putting actual elements that are common within POC culture as well! Her skin could be darker though, which is a big nitpick i have.

Overall, they are doing good in some aspects, but are VERY much missing in most. I feel like having darker characters with more heavy cultural aspects would be neat, but i don’t really know whats going to come up in the future. I was really happy to see a area based on africa since it already had problems with POC diversity in many aspects, but the fact that the character designs are a miss AGAIN makes me sad :/

how come people are caring about whitewashing now in genshin?

i am poc!!!!!!! i am south asian!!!!!! i have rights to talk about this and give my opinions on a nation (sumeru) that is 70% based off my culture!!! do NOT come at me!!!!!!!!!!

ive been into genshin since 2.2 or something like that, wayyy before sumeru. when the time sumeru came, i was so incredibly disappointed (still am!!!) with the character designs. everything from the music, landscape and even food was perfect in genshin but the biggest part of the game, the characters, their designs were awful.

ive been speaking about their designs and how bad they are ever since, but barely anyone else actually cares about it. the "caring" only lasted 2 weeks max, and then everyone stopped talking about it. crazy!!!!!

natlan is now coming out soon, and the same people who were defending sumeru's character designs / did not ever speak about them, are now talking about natlan's character designs and their archon, isn't that strange?? how come people are only starting to care now? they act as if it wasn't a huge problem before.

YOU PEOPLE DO NOT ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT WHITEWASHING!!!!!!!!!

more of my yapping below:

if people actually cared about the whitewashing in genshin, they would ALSO point out the whitewashing in sumeru and even inazuma. are you kididng? have you seen nahida? (post abt how she shouldnt be white here) have you taken a look at dori? shes SUCH a weird combination of cultures. she is NOT done right. a lot of inazuma's character designs have issues fromwhat i've heard from other poc in the community; a lot of clothing is very off and incorrect.

I CAN LIST EVERYTHING WRONG WITH SUMERU'S CHARACTERS. but the biggest one i can say is ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN WHITEWASHED TO DEATH. but literally no one cared!!!!!!!!! well, they did but only for a short amount of time

"oh my god!! they've whitewashed natlan so much" you act like this hasnt been happening for a while now lmao... even in inazuma, a lot of the traditional clothing has been made to fit the western gaze and to "make them hotter"..... you guys can NOT be serious.

people are only caring about natlan because it's hot news. people will stop talking about the whitewashing in natlan after a while, and thats a problem!! it really shows how racist the genshin community is and its so disgusting

if people actually cared about whitewashing, you would have done your boycotting as soon as designs were looking off. not now, but even when the shogun was released. people truly dont care for poc voices

a lot of the player base will silence poc in the community without hesitation... jesus christ you guys are worse than the dsmp fandom with racism 💀💀 you guys dont care about actual racism!!! you only care about your ships!!!! i am done ��

anyway. thats my yearly yap of the season... support me i actually take representation presented in media seriously 💞💞💞

#emma 🌻#talking #genshin impact #sumeru #inazuma #natlan #whitewashing #racism #tw racism #cw racism #warning racism #heavy topics #tw whitewashing #cw whitewashing #warning whitewashing

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humanwheatleyslefttoenail · 4 years ago

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why do you ship chell and glados if glados is basically her mom

Okay this is actually a pretty common misconception in the fandom that unfortunately a lot of people have taken as canon, but I’m feeling nice so I’ll answer your question.

Basically, anon is referencing a theory from around 2012 that Caroline is Chell’s mom. The evidence for the theory is as follows:

- The turret opera calls Chell “bambina”, which means “little girl” in Italian

- Chell’s name can be found on a Bring Your Daughter To Work Day science project

- GLaDOS references the possibility of Chell being adopted multiple times

- GLaDOS is significantly nicer to Chell after discovering she’s Caroline

And, anon, you’re right, it does sound like a pretty good argument at first glance. The problem is that a lot of these points don’t actually hold up to scrutiny.

For example, although “bambina” literally translates to “little girl,” it’s often used in the same way “baby girl” is used in English - it can mean child, but contextually it’s usually a flirtatious term. (Source: Cambridge Dictionary)

For Chell’s science project, it doesn’t work as evidence for the theory because GLaDOS killed the scientists around 1998-ish, when Caroline had presumably been uploaded several years earlier and Cave was already dead. Also, Chell’s in her 20′s, and since we know from Lab Rat/Portal 2 that people don’t age in stasis, and that Doug put Chell at the top of the test subject list only weeks after the takeover, Chell was 28 at the time of the takeover. The science project is really only an Easter egg and doesn’t actually fit into the canon timeline let alone prove anything about Caroline and Cave.

GLaDOS talking about Chell being adopted is a pretty strong point, I’ll admit, but also it’s important to remember that maybe half of what GLaDOS says is true. And even if we take what she says at face value, she also says there’s a man and a woman in stasis with Chell’s last name, which could not have been Cave and Caroline because they were already dead at that point. And the official book Final Hours Of Portal 2 confirms Cave and Caroline were not married and could not have shared the same name anyway. It was also the 50′s, an an unmarried couple of two likely famous people having a child would’ve been scandalous, and yet we see no hint of something like this affecting their company.

Also, although GLaDOS is nicer to Chell after the Caroline reveal, that’s not necessarily indicative of a mother-daughter relationship, and neither is any of their interactions. It’s just. GLaDOS being friendlier.

Finally, when this theory was made (and let’s be honest - it still is happening) Chell was constantly whitewashed to hell and back.

Chell is Japanese-Brazilian, and Cave and Caroline are white, so it would be a near impossibility for her to be their biological child (and insisting otherwise is kinda. just. whitewashing). And although people will cry “adoption!”, based on what I’ve previously proven, that’s pretty much impossible. This theory that somehow she’s Cave and Caroline’s daughter erases an important part of her identity. [Disclaimer, I am white, but this is what I’ve heard from around the fandom]

With all that said, the idea that she’s the daughter of Cave and Caroline really doesn’t hold weight when you really analyze the canon. It’s surface level analysis that doesn’t hold up. And honestly? The idea kinda cheapens the story. It’s much more powerful that GLaDOS learns to care about Chell and becomes kinder than just. Oh, she remembered she’s related to Chell.

But to actually answer your ask.

Why do I ship them?

Well, they aren’t mother and daughter, I think that’s pretty obvious now. But if you actually look at a lot of subtext in Portal 2, without the lens of the mother theory, it’s actually pretty romantic!

I know that sounds ridiculous, but bear with me!

Now - it’s totally okay if you don’t ship them. I get it. Their interactions in Portal 1 and the first half of Portal 2 are toxic if not outright well. Y’know. Murderous. I completely understand why that turns people off from shipping them, and ultimately, shipping is a personal thing. To each his own.

But before you judge me, let me present my case.

Exhibit A: Portal

Portal is kinda gay. No, really. Chell and GLaDOS are enemies in this game, but the entire focus is on their relationship (good or not) and the power struggle between them. They are opposites, two sides of the same coin, different representations of opposite ideologies. People have analyzed Portal as a relationship metaphor, or as a metaphor about women’s role in society - either way, the heart of Portal is the complicated dynamic between Chell and GLaDOS.

That’s not necessarily enough to code a romance, but a lot of popular (and especially popular queer ones) ships begin with opposite ideologies, symbolic powers colliding. Portal cements their relationship as a toxic one, something on the verge of falling apart and hurting both parties in the end. The ending image, of Chell and GLaDOS side by side after the battle, reinforces the symbolic parallels between the two.

The companion cube is also pretty symbolically important to this interpretation. It’s literally a representation of someone’s heart, and you are told to protect it and preserve it under GLaDOS’ orders, and then you have to destroy it regardless of how you actually feel about doing that. You are destroying GLaDOS’ heart, so to speak.

There’s also the ending song, Still Alive. The lyrics speak for themselves.

They hint that GLaDOS’ feelings about Chell are more complicated than they may appear (if she’s not being sarcastic...) and she literally talks about Chell breaking her heart (also, think back to the companion cube. Yeah.). The entire song is structurally similar to many a breakup number, with the laments of “I’m glad it happened, but also leave.”

At the end, we also see that the long promised cake GLaDOS was supposedly lying about was real the whole time. Before Portal 2 came out, it was mostly interpreted as a stinger ending (along with the nicer lyrics of Still Alive) to make you question GLaDOS’ true motives and intentions.

She actually did have a real cake waiting for you. (Side note - not really evidence, but in Argentina, “torta” means cake in Spanish. It’s also a slang term for lesbians. So. Do with that what you will). The cake is what GLaDOS offers you to lull you into the sense that she cares about you, so discovering that “the cake is a lie” wakes you up to the realization that she doesn’t. Except then the idea is subverted one last time, at the very end, showing that the cake is real and at least some of what she said she meant.

You also see the companion cube. You know, GLaDOS’ symbolic heart?

Now, okay, you might be thinking I’m extrapolating a bit too much. And you might be right. But Portal is not the only game in the series, and if you’re asking me about Cave and Caroline you obviously know about Portal 2.

Exhibit B: Portal 2

If you thought Portal was gay, Portal 2 turns that up to 11.

Even before GLaDOS wakes up, you’re treated to some visual subtext. A few of Rattmann’s drawings representing the events of Portal 2 focus a lot on the relationship between GLaDOS and Chell, with more of the cake symbolism.

In this, you can see a face layered on top of GLaDOS. This could be foreshadowing about Caroline, and likely is, but also resembles his other drawing of Chell. It insists that Chell is a part of GLaDOS, or reinforces parallels between Chell and Caroline, hinting at something either way.

In this picture, we also see Chell standing on top of GLaDOS, in the same position where the overlay of the feminine face was, again referencing the parallel. It also presents them as opposites, fundamental parts of the same thing and both connected to the same basis, but on opposing sides.

When GLaDOS wakes up, she returns to her antagonistic role, but there are more hints to something deeper just like in Portal.

Here, in her awakening lines, she references Chell not unlike an estranged ex. Also worth noting that GLaDOS is pretty much the personification of testing (in a sense, she is testing since she can control all of Aperture like an extension of her body), and insinuates that Chell loves to test. And that she reciprocates that feeling.

In test chamber 10, she says this:

It’s supposed to be threatening, but it does read as almost... sentimental.

There’s also another chamber with companion cubes in Portal 2. I already talked about their symbolism in Portal, and the same pretty much applies to them here. However, GLaDOS says something interesting about them during this level:

Once again, meant to be intimidating, ends up coming off as “well, GLaDOS, why were you going to give Chell a heart shaped representation of yourself that says ‘I love you?’” And you might think I’m stretching the GLaDOS’ heart metaphor thing a little far here, and I might agree, if the companion cubes didn’t literally sing Cara Mia for you.

Cara Mia is the turret opera from the end of the game, which is all about how much GLaDOS cares about Chell. More on that later. But the companion cubes play a song called Love as A Construct, and when you get close to them, they sing a specific part of the song that has the tune of Cara Mia. These things literally exist to sing about GLaDOS’ feelings.

Which makes this line a lot more. For lack of a better term. Tsundere-ish.

Then, right before the escape, she starts talking about the confetti from her fake surprise.

I really don’t have to explain this one. What else does GLaDOS consider an inconvenience but might miss anyway? Or, more aptly, who else?

Then, during the escape, she teases a (fake) final test chamber in front of you, and forms the panels in the shape of a heart. No, really.

Up to this point, a lot of the points I’ve presented are interspersed with a fair amount of antagonization on GLaDOS’ behalf, more Foe Yay than anything actually hinting at something deeper than GLaDOS being conflicted about whether she loves or hates Chell. But things really ramp up after Wheatley’s betrayal, when the two of them are forced to team up. (I should also note here that “enemies to lovers” is a pretty classic queer romance trope.)

Here, GLaDOS is put on an equal level with Chell and they have to rely on each other if they want to survive. For the rest of the singleplayer campaign, GLaDOS becomes a lot nicer and even friendly to Chell. There comes a point where she starts referring to Chell as a teammate, calling them “we.” She begins to consider them one unit, two opposites unified. Here’s what she says after the lemon rant:

You can not only see her using we, but actively talking about how her and Chell are going to fight Wheatley together. There’s also that last line - “let’s explode with some dignity.” GLaDOS has fully accepted the very likely possibility that she and Chell might die together. That she might die on the same level, and the same team as Chell. And she seems... surprisingly okay with that, as long as she and Chell go together.

It’s during the Old Aperture levels that Chell and GLaDOS also discover that they have a lot in common. This is the part of the game where GLaDOS figures out she’s Caroline, that she’s human. Or, that she’s like Chell. And Chell discovers (from what we can tell anyway) that Caroline is kind, that she’s funny and smart and so many of these things she never noticed about GLaDOS before. Now also with the knowledge she is fighting alongside another human being.

You can also draw parallels between Chell and Caroline, both intelligent women ultimately betrayed by their seemingly innocuous male friends before being trapped in Aperture and forced to team up with one another in a way that will free both of them. We see that really, GLaDOS isn’t that different from Chell - she too has been imprisoned in this place against her will, but in a completely different way. Once again, the idea of two sides of the same coin applies here.

I’ve written another meta about this before, but I also think the whole idea of repressing a part of your identity and hating it, before bonding with another woman and then realizing that it’s okay to be like her and to be on her side. It’s okay to be yourself and meeting her is what helps you discover this new part of yourself. Is kinda inherently gay. GLaDOS’ discovery of her own humanity just fits so well into a queer realization narrative, to me at least.

Then, Chell and GLaDOS escape Old Aperture and have to get through Wheatley’s tests.

Here, GLaDOS isn’t just begrudgingly on Chell’s team. She’s actively helpful. She wants to help Chell solve tests, defends her from Wheatley’s insults, and makes jokes to lighten the mood. Things that can really only be explained by her caring about Chell, especially the part about the insults. See below.

After the two escape Wheatley’s testing track, right before the boss fight GLaDOS has a few other things to say.

GLaDOS is not going to betray Chell, because of some kind of conscience. But she could easily ignore that back in her body, and yet? Here she’s deciding not to, and for no good reason. She didn’t have to say that to Chell, but she did, because she cares and she wants Chell to live.

And then, moments before the fight:

The final lines imply that GLaDOS does not think of Chell as an enemy anymore, and that it doesn’t matter what Chell thinks because they are in this together and they are getting revenge together. It’s pretty heartwarming to be honest, to know that even in a fight that will almost certainly kill you, she is there rooting for you and caring about you, even if you don’t feel the same way about her. It no longer matters to GLaDOS whether you even reciprocate - you staying alive, you making it through is enough for her.

So Chell fights Wheatley and sends him into space, all well and good, and at this point, GLaDOS has the option to kill Chell. But not only does she not, she actively saves Chell, and holds her hand in the process. If you don’t believe me:

And not only that, but when Chell goes unconscious from her injuries, GLaDOS sits and waits for her to wake up. It’s also implied that GLaDOS carries her to the elevator, since it’s where she wakes up but not where she passed out. In the scene where Chell blacks out, you can also hear the part of Love As A Construct that sounds like Cara Mia. Yeah. Yeah.

If you think that this cannot possibly get any gayer, you are wrong again, because then GLaDOS makes her final speech. Which is really just a love confession, let’s be honest.

The “surge of emotion?” Do you mean love, GLaDOS? And the idea of GLaDOS considering Chell her best friend, despite everything these two have done to each other? The idea that GLaDOS, out of all people, forgives someone?

Except this isn’t even Chell’s final send-off. GLaDOS writes her an entire opera of turrets, that sing a literal love song. (Note what I said earlier about the use of the word “bambina”).

It really can’t get any more obvious than that. “My (affectionate romantic term here), my dear, I adore you.” How. Is. That. Heterosexual. In. Any. Way.

So Chell goes to the surface, set free by GLaDOS (think of the saying “if you love something, set it free), and you think that’s the end. Until GLaDOS gives you a companion cube so you aren’t alone on the journey, and from the burn marks, you know it’s your first companion cube. Her original heart, her first gift to you, a piece of her that she wants you to carry with you to remind you that she does care about you after everything. It also gives the lyrics to Still Alive a much more genuine meaning.

Portal 2 ends, and then the ending song, another GLaDOS number plays. Just like Still Alive, Want You Gone is structurally a break up song and very obviously about GLaDOS missing Chell and “counting on” (read: caring about/loving) Chell’s tendencies and quirks.

She’s accepted Chell completely, and yet also given Chell the one thing she wants most. Only wanting Chell gone can mean GLaDOS not wanting Chell in her life anymore, but can also mean she wants to give Chell the freedom she’s wanted for so, so long. It’s the best thing she can give.

In the co-op campaign, GLaDOS also references still caring about Chell.

And that’s the end of the Portal series. Except. Brace yourself. Despite the games being over, there is STILL more subtext somehow. It gets. Even gayer.

Exhibit C: Supplemental Evidence

Valve has made a lot of extra/cut content for the Portal series, and I’ll be looking at some of it below.

This official valentine from Valve shows GLaDOS offering a romantic partner cake, which as we’ve established before, is very symbolic of GLaDOS’ feelings about and/or relationship with Chell.

There’s a lot of other concept art and official art that emphasizes their relationship too. See below.

There’s also some cut GLaDOS lines that are even gayer than the source material and again, sound like confessions or references to a breakup:

The idea of “discovering things about someone”... how much more obvious can it get?

The developers have even confirmed a lot of my commentary on Chell and GLaDOS’ relationship in The Final Hours Of Portal 2. See these quotes from the book/this post:

The devs literally describe it as a romance. They use terms like “cheating,” they wanted to write a romantic duet, JoCo purposefully wrote the endings like love songs. It is literally, blatantly said by the creators of the game that their relationship is interpreted romantically. By the creators of the game.

And if Word of God confirmation isn’t enough for you, have a song written for a cut alternate ending by GLaDOS’ voice actress, Ellen McClain. The song is literally nothing but GLaDOS talking about caring about Chell, about not wanting her to die/leave GLaDOS alone, about wanting to bake a cake with Chell, about waiting for Chell to wake her up. It’s so genuinely sweet and sad, and really, really romantic in the most heartwrenching way possible.

JoCo also came back for the Portal levels in Lego Dimensions, writing one final breakup song for GLaDOS to sing about Chell. It comes off as GLaDOS not wanting to admit she misses Chell even though she obviously does, trying to replace their relationship but failing, and even explicitly forgiving Chell/wanting her to come back.

Also, the “finally I understand,” as if only now GLaDOS understands just how deep her feelings for Chell are... What else can I say?

In Lego Dimensions, GLaDOS also outright rejects anyone who isn’t Chell.

In Conclusion:

Why do I ship Chell and GLaDOS?

Well, ultimately, it doesn’t matter whether I ship them.

Because I think it’s glaringly obvious Portal does.

#chelldos #chell #glados #portal #portal 2 #tw fatphobia #whitewashing #fandom racism #long post

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tinyfantasminha · 3 years ago

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if he had the same personality but had a fair-skinned twink bishonen like appearance people would go CRAZY for him bc the badgoodboy trope is already popular 💀💀💀

As a POC I ask you to PLZ GO OFF QUEEN

referring to this post

NO FR IT NEEDS TO BE SAID,,,

Just how many ppl I've encountered that claimed they weren't into Jack with the same excuses ''I'm not a furry'', ''I'm not into muscly guys'', ''not my type'' and then simping for characters with the same attributes as him (saying they ''aren't furries'' but simping for white skinny catboys/other charas with animal motif, saying they're ''not into muscles'' but simping for charas with the same physique as Jack, saying he's ''not their type'' but simping for characters with similar personality/vibes as him) and they all happen to be the standard white bishonen anime boy,,,

There's barely any content of him in the western fandom and when I go to the jp fandom side the amount of whitewashed fanart of him is just insane, and that only proves my point 🤡🤡🤡 (there's even been a few instances where I see ppl drawing him white AND skinny, like what the fuck... I don't even have words for this)

Of course people have the right to have their preferences and nobody is forced to like a character; however, my problem is with people that outright refuses to get to know or understand his character better solely because they judge him at first sight for his appearence; (and let's be honest, if he were white-skinned and didn't have a burly physique, most people's first reaction to him would be WAY different)

I love Jack so much and it frustrates and saddens me to no end that he's treated like this within both fandoms, which is one of the reasons why I hold onto him so much and make my blog mostly Jack-themed.......... I was very happy when ppl came to me and told me they got to appreciate Jack more as a character because of my blog!!

And repeating what I said in the other post, a character doesn't need to fit in your appearance standards for you to appreciate them as a character. (That goes esp to POC characters, non-human characters and characters that have a different physique other than toned/skinny) and maybe if some ppl weren't judging assholes they could take a liking and even grow to love said characters smh

#answered ask #twisted wonderland #jack howl #putting this in the main tag bc yes

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opinated-user · 2 years ago

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About LO's take on racism in TOH fandom (pardon this subject is getting repetitive, I just wanted to give my own two cents about it while it's being talked about)... Is it just me or does LO have a very big tendency to project certain aspects of the fandom of any given piece of media onto the content itself? Let me try to clarify my point here;

Although I have noticed this with nearly every show LO talks about, I'll mostly keep my arguments to the Owl House situation for the sake of simplicity. So.

I will not deny that TOH fandom (and every fandom I have ever come across, really) has both a white favoritism and a racism problem. From some artists whitewashing the POC characters to people being a bit too quick to praise, defend, and demand redemptions for the white characters while rarely extending the same treatment to the non-white characters (I say that because I have witnessed multiple people single out every single POC character in the show BY NAME and say they are badly written), racism - both committed intentionally and on accident - has always been rampant in fandom in general.

The reason for this, as you have already said in previous asks, is that racism is a structural problem that is deeply ingrained in our society. And yet LO seems to be incapable (or most likely simply unwilling) to recognize that fact, and instead chooses to blame this problem directly on the show itself - most notably on Dana Terrace herself. So something that is an issue across the whole fandom is suddenly the fault of a single person who... Wrote Hunter in too many episodes, apparently.

I have seen people of color criticize The Owl House for having a white favoritism problem. And I do agree on that aspect (and even if I didn't, I don't believe I am in any position to do so, seeing as it despite what people on the USA might label me for my nationality, I am in fact white). The complaints about some of the non-white characters - notably Willow and Gus - being somewhat sidelined for the sake of either the plot or another characters' storylines are also a valid criticism. While I do not think this was intentional on the part of the writers, it's still an issue, and I won't argue against that.

The thing about it is, whenever LO complains about this problem, she herself sidelines the POC character's development and story lines in favor of spending more time ranting about Hunter's existence and how the writers (and Dana Terrace) are solely to blame for the fandom doing the exact same thing as she is doing.

Because as much as we all wish that we had more time to explore Willow, Gus, Darius, Raine and more of the cast in more detail, the fact of the matter is that their own stories are being ignored... By the same people arguing that their characters are being ignored.

Let me give some examples. When Through The Looking Glass Ruins came out, admittedly a big part of the fandom focused solely on the Lumity parts of the episode. LO, in turn, blamed Dana Terrace for letting Lumity overshadow Gus's story... When the Lumity bits were a B plot that only took a little bit more than a third of the episode, with the main story being dedicated to Gus's adventure in the graveyard and his newfound tentative friendship with Mattholomule. In all this time, I have never ONCE seen LO make even a single comment about Gus's story in his own damn episode, and instead she just rants about DT letting Luz and Amity overshadow him when this was never a problem of the episode itself, but of the fandom.

The same thing happened with both Any Sport in a Storm and Labyrinth Runners, which are both dedicated to developing Willow and Gus (respectively) alongside Hunter, and establishing a positive relationship between them. Willow and Gus are major characters in these episodes, with some light being shed in both of their inner conflicts and them having some compelling development in those episodes. But because one of the characters who's also the focus of the episodes is Hunter, she once again spends a huge amount of time complaining about his presence and how he overshadows Gus and Willow and forgets to... Talk... About... Gus and Willow.

Also I have seen her claim once again that Lumity overshadows Willow in ASiaS when again, it's a B plot that barely had half the time that it did in TtLGR? I don't know...

I do recognize that Willow and Gus deserved more focus, stories and episodes centered on them, but I also believe that it is not fair to place the blame of the actions of the fandom solely on DT's shoulders, especially considering the circumstances of the shortened third season and the absolutely petty meddling of the higher ups (if you've seen that one video that Alex Hirsch posted reading the S&P department's complaints you have a fraction of an idea of the bullshit these producers go through to get their ideas to even be accepted).

Does the Owl House have some white favoritism regarding Amity, Eda, Lilith and Hunter having a lot more screentime than most of the POC characters? I do believe so, but the fandom should also be held accountable for doing the exact same thing, and LO should also be held accountable for that and for pushing all of the blame onto someone that only should hold some.

I apologize for the absolutely massive rant here, I hope my points were coherent enough--

you were perfectly coherent, anon, and i feel like i have very little to add. to summarize: -racism is a systemic problem that it's not going to be fixed easily and it's absolutely present on fandom. -LO blames the creator of the show for things outside of her control. -LO much prefers to rant about hunter (even when talking about episodes where he is not there) than do any of the work she demands out of everyone else, therefore contributing even more to more white favoritism and let the POC characters get the short end of the stick.

#lily orchard

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yeahitsanalt-fuckdogpilers · 1 month ago

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yup, me, a white dude is definitely racist to other white people and have a hatred for pale skinned people! (let’s ignore the thousands of years of real implication that white skin was seen as more beautiful and hence has been engrained into cultures universally, specifically east asia where hoyoverse is situated).

Your subconscious may hold many hidden aspects of yourself.

White guilt is the term for it.

You seem to cherry-pick history a lot for someone who is so keen on bringing it up. Let's ignore the cultural context in which individuals in predominantly white cultures and countries, not just those in Europe and East Asia, find whiteness to be more attractive. The only reason it became "ingrained into (some) cultures universally" was due to the rapid development and greater influence of Europe and Asia throughout history. Although this is the reason it occurred, it in no way justifies their behavior. Let's also ignore the fact that cultures and countries with a large black population also viewed darker skin as more attractive.

Let's overlook the numerous instances in which Black individuals act in a racist manner towards White people and those they perceive as not "black enough", including those of mixed races, in their daily lives. A few examples include the stigma associated with having a white spouse, the stigma against mixed children (many of whom have shared stories of not being accepted in either or both families for not being Black/White enough, or in social groups at school for not being one or the other(my old English teacher shared this experience with me.), the use of derogatory phrases directed at people with pale skin, the constant question, "Is it because I'm Black?" when told no, and any other negative response to make someone feel guilty in order to get what they want. Later, you bring about Sumeru, which is amusing because I distinctly remember people becoming very angry when stated that many Middle Easterners are in fact pale. This is just one example of the lack of acceptance toward pale people of color. Not that it wasn't obvious with Asians, but I digress. There are numerous other examples to consider.

Racism does not require the superiority in power or numbers that white people in America have. It is merely an attitude or belief, usually derogatory, about a race or ethnicity that is not true.

the point is that if say a nation like liyue, had the same skin colour as a character like xinyan (who hails from liyue and has a liyue name) people would undoubtedly be upset. so why is it that when in terms of nations that are based off countries with a darker skin colour variety, complaining about the characters being white is seen as a problem?

The issue isn't being upset about the lack of diversity. The issue is when the solution is to erase and replace existing people.

You people regularly claim that whitewashing has a greater impact than blackwashing, and the fandom interpretation makes no difference. Why not simply create OCs? Unlike blackwashing, it doesn't alter the original and doesn't carry the racist implications associated with altering a character's skin tone.You have already presumed that I support this double standard. I do not.

You fail to recognize the distinction between "creators designing their original characters mainly with a color that does not accurately represent reality and is not intended to" and "this media does not reflect reality, so I will 'fix' that by disregarding the creators' choices and disrespecting other cultures and individuals in the process," which happens when people choose to blackwash characters not only from Sumeru and Natlan but also from Mondstadt, Liyue, Inazuma, and Fontaine thus far.

It is important to respect the creative decisions made by the original creators of these characters, as they have the right to design their creations as they see fit. Additionally, imposing arbitrary standards on character design based on real-world cultural representation can limit artistic freedom and creativity in storytelling.

let me reinstate exactly what i said previously about “blackwashing”: historically, media, including video games and anime, have predominantly featured pale-skinned characters, often neglecting the representation of people of color. this lack of diversity reinforces a narrow view of beauty and heroism, contributing to the systemic exclusion of non-white individuals. blackwashing helps to rectify these historical imbalances by providing a broader spectrum of racial representation. it challenges the default assumption that characters must be pale-skinned and introduces audiences to a more inclusive range of appearances.

Sure, it is capable of that. While also condemning those with pale complexions. See them as something to be removed and replaced.

What would genuinely help with that, though? Appealing for a more varied cast on more original material. Demand not for black skin to replace white figures, but to simply add more people of color. Don't get me wrong; I am quite aware of the current state of the film industry. I literally live with a guy who works in the industry.

Blackwashing, however, is essentially a cheap tactic used to appease black people without really working to produce anything fresh and unique that would truly appeal to them.

The Princess and the Frog was so successful for a reason; even I consider it to be among their best films. It's merely lazy, cheap, and racist to cast a black actor as a white historical person. This is done to appear inclusive on the surface, but in reality, they are only interested in your money. Although I believe most of their politically aligned remarks are unnecessary (mainly, as in, of course, politics play some part in the debate but not the focus), I will warn that the link I am about to post is a bit political. However, they raise a number of valid arguments that I won't simply regurgitate to you.

representation matters profoundly in media. seeing characters that reflect one's own identity can have significant positive effects on self-esteem and cultural pride. blackwashing creates opportunities for black audiences to see themselves in roles and narratives traditionally dominated by pale-skinned characters.

It would be more helpful to advocate for original characters and stories that promote different cultures (specifically ones that are interested in doing so). Setting aside the fact that they aren't obligated to or able to, Genshin Impact isn't one of them.

critics (youtube creators and tiktok lmao) of blackwashing often argue that it disrespects original character designs or cultural contexts. however, the impact of changing a character's skin tone is minimal compared to the harm caused by whitewashing. whitewashing often erases the cultural significance of non-white characters, perpetuating stereotypes and denying the rich diversity of the source material. blackwashing, in contrast, does not erase cultural identities but rather enhances the inclusivity of the media. it provides a more diverse and representative depiction without detracting from the character's original essence or storyline.

So what's your excuse for people blackwashing Inazuman or Iiyuen characters? You claim to support diversity yet are ready to exclude cultures and individuals you deem too light-skinned.

Please, please provide me just one example where the pale skin of a genshin character from Natlan or Sumeru managed to strip the cultural significance of their design that actually references culture, their lore, and character building inspired by Latin American culture associated with them.

Casting a Black actor as, for example, George Washington would invalidate your claim that "it provides a more diverse and representative depiction without detracting from the character's original essence or storyline."

Here's the issue. If you refuse to acknowledge the worth of other people's representations, histories, and cultures, then you have no business advocating for representation and cultural respect.

Mihoyo may place a heavy emphasis on Chinese culture through Iiyue, but that doesn't mean they are obligated to do the same for other people. And that's before we even consider the CCP's censoring policies, over which Mihoyo has no say.

Would I say that there should have been more people of color in these regions and that the media as a whole needed more diversity? Yes.

However, I also think that when someone is not guaranteed accurate portrayal, they do not have adequate reason to expect it. Also, I think it's completely up to the creators of fictional media to decide whether or not to include particular groups of individuals. When you look at the impacts of blackwashing, you see that it is merely racism targeting non-dark-skinned individuals, even though it is done under the guise of diversity and representation.

When it comes to original series starring Black characters, no one ever complains. There's a reasoning behind why no one raises a complaint when they merely exist, rather than being used to replace another in the name of representation. People often resist forced agendas. Recent games such as Assassin's Creed Shadows, Concord, Dustborn, Star Wars: Outlaws, etc., have failed since people do not watch or play them for activism. They aren't racist just because they feature Black characters; rather, their entire existence is to further an ideology and encourage activism, as opposed to white characters' merely existing in media. All Black main casts (of shows, generally) are incredibly popular and beloved, and there are innumerable shows and games with Black characters.

That you'd waste time on a game that won't give you what you want is confusing. Why does Asian media need to cater to a worldwide audience because of its popularity? Why not just look for more media that contains what you're looking for? Among many other forms of media, people from the Middle East, Africa, and South America create games, television series, and movies. Why not look for more of those and promote them?

Of course, you may counter with any number of arguments, but I'll take the following: "because they aren't well known and wouldn't reach as many people, therefore being ineffective at advocating for diversity" to support my point.

Anime and other forms of Asian media were also not popular before. The stereotype that anime fans are weird endured until around 2010, give or take. It was quite niche. Its current success is due in large part to the fact that its fans persisted through its stigmatization and gave the fan base an opportunity to blossom.

As a result, you opt to ride on the coattails of popular media from other countries rather than creating your own media from the countries you want represented. Proclaiming that diversity and inclusion in media helps dark poc while ignoring dark poc's own media. Actually, it would be much easier to popularize foreign media in this day and age.

in addition, usually when a character is black in fantasy media or even just an anime/game with a lore based story, it’s because their race is significant to who they are (i.e tiana from princess and the frog who faces racial discrimination — without her being a person of colour, this storyline and the events that follow wouldn’t make sense).

there is nothing inherently "racist" about reimagining a character with a different race, especially in fan-created content, which often exists to fill the gaps left by mainstream media's lack of diversity. the key issue is whether the media and culture at large provide enough representation for people of all races—not whether a fan artist changes the race of a character in their personal art.

You see, there wouldn't be an issue if it was merely a "reimagining." However, you "replace" rather than "reimagine."

A reimagining could be compared to a gender bend. This is a recurring theme in media and fan media. Among other things, they never claim that the character would be better off as one gender or another or that they should be.

In this case, I believe it would be called... racebending.

It is precisely what people did in a previous trend with Hatsune Miku. Many people speculated about what Miku would look like in their respective cultures. And nobody objected to it. Why? No one was disputing that Miku should have darker skin. No one argued that Miku should belong to a different culture or that she doesn't adequately represent her own. Nobody was saying that, in order to make other people feel included, miku should be anything other than Japanese. Nobody was arguing that Miku's paleness "reinforces toxic Asian beauty standards." Because even if Miku doesn't have the same skin tone as them, people still love and respect her for being pale, Japanese, and deeply rooted in current Japanese culture.

It was more like, "Hey, I just wanted to explore and imagine what they would/could look like if it were different," than, "Hey, this is what they should look like for a convoluted set of reasons."

"Is that not blackwashing as well?"

No, because it's generally accepted that Miku is Japanese and that this was only a "reimagine" that was never meant to take the place of or erase her true identity.

However, do you know what people were upset for at that time? I'll let you take a look.

additionally, the issue of “blackwashing” is often blown out of proportion when discussing fan art. the original designs of the characters remain unchanged in official media, while fan artists have the freedom to reinterpret them as they see fit. the outrage over black fan interpretations can often reveal biases around who is "allowed" to be represented in media.

One example of someone actually saying poc aren't allowed to be represented in media. Go.

even aside from the problems with racial diversity, the character design department has been known to completely fail when it comes to accurate representation. from the sexualisation of the kimono in characters like raiden shogun (which even the eastern part of the fandom have been upset about) to the character of yunjin where the chinese player based believed she was more like a lolita inspired caricature than a real depiction. they don’t understand how to mingle tradition with modernism.

clears throat and gets close to the microphone

No one ever claimed that their objective was to provide an accurate representation from the very beginning.

Neither of them are intended to be “actual depictions,” and the complaints from some people within those cultures regarding this fact cannot be considered the final word in the discussion. Particularly when you take into account the significant censorship present in China and the strong aversion to femboys in Korea. Japan holds its culture and history in high regard, which explains the outrage from the Japanese people towards Ubisoft and AC Shadows regarding the inclusion of a broken tori gate in an official product. This gate, a remnant of the atomic bombings, remains a painful reminder for many Japanese people, making it a particularly sensitive topic. No country operates as a singular entity, and a variety of perspectives will always exist.

Also, Ei is a character that has hit top-selling status three times. And despite what some people think of her design and gameplay, Yunjin is adored by all for introducing people to another rich aspect of Chinese culture, as well as for who she is as a character and her role in Shenhe's story. It's important to consider that many individuals favor traditional designs rather than modern ones. Therefore, these people might show a bias against designs such as Yunjin and Raiden, resulting in more complaints compared to those who do not share this opinion.

This design trend is prevalent across all characters. I don't consider Eula's attire to be typical of a knight in real life. Would you also like to share your thoughts on Zhongli's attire, which features a suit incorporating geo, dragon, and Chinese elements/motifs rather than traditional Chinese clothing?

No one observes any of the characters in the game and thinks, "That's how people actually dress in real life." This is how traditional clothing appears in real life.

In addition, lolita is a popular and beloved aesthetic in East Asia. Many of those who express complaints about it tend to be Americans who equate it to pedophilia.

cultural appropriation is less about "stealing" and more about how real-world cultures are represented. when a game, movie, or other media takes heavy inspiration from a culture, especially one that has been marginalized or colonized, it carries a responsibility to portray it accurately and respectfully. the fact that natlan takes clear inspiration from Latin America (particularly pre-Colombian civilizations) as well as AFRICA (since you KEEP forgetting to mention lmao) means it isn’t just fantasy; it touches on real-world cultural identities that deserve fair representation.

Cultural appropriation fundamentally involves the act of stealing from another culture. What do you think appropriate means?

Appropriate

verb

appropriated; appropriating

transitive verb

1: to take exclusive possession of: annex

No one should appropriate a common benefit.

2: to set apart for or assign to a particular purpose or use

appropriate money for a research program

3: to take or make use of without authority or right

natural habitats that have been appropriated for human use

From its roots, the verb appropriate would mean basically "make one's own"—that is, "take" or sometimes "grab.".

Do not confuse drawing inspiration from something with cultural appropriation.

Additionally, that “responsibility” is perceived by oneself. Because where do you make the distinction between heavy and light inspiration? That's an entirely different can of worms.

Kindly remove your inability to differentiate between fantasy and reality from this discussion. It either is fantasy or it isn't; there is no middle ground.

Indeed, fair representation is important. That doesn't mean that you are entitled to it or that creators have an obligation to provide it. That's similar to visiting a coffee shop and noticing they don't offer tea, then demanding they should because not everyone prefers coffee. This one focuses on coffee, although some—in fact, the majority of them that I know—do sell tea as well. They are not obligated to begin selling tea simply because you desire it or because others do. Simply locate a place that offers both coffee and tea, or one that focuses solely on tea. (Where surely you wouldn't complain about them not selling coffee, because even though you drink tea and not coffee, there are people who do drink coffee.)

Regarding your comment on Africa, it primarily reflects the opinions of fans and lacks verification. There is also little to no evidence to suggest that Africa was a major source of inspiration for SO FAR. Since Natlan isn't fully released yet, I chose not to include it at this point. My argument stays the same regardless.

even if hoyoverse claims the designs aren't literal representations, the choice to draw inspiration from these cultures brings an implicit expectation of respect. representation matters, especially for communities that historically haven’t been well-represented in global media.

The majority of media is global in nature. That does not imply they must accommodate a global audience. While representation is indeed significant, it does not obligate people to provide it. However, I seem to be repeating myself.

Seeking sympathy won't change my stance on the issue. I don't understand why you think that, as my stance is that both are racist and should be avoided.

Your argument misses the basic implications of changing a character's skin tone to represent another race. Changing a character's skin tone to represent another race is a form of racism. Additionally, it ignores the widespread anti-white sentiment in black communities, which is a result of systematic racism and generational trauma. The approach so far has been to replace white people with black people in the media rather than working genuinely to solve the problem and present everyone as equals.

Blackwashing alone cannot resolve racism. Your actions are more likely to cause division than to promote equality.

It is important to recognize the complexities of racism and work toward genuine inclusivity and representation. You are not really encouraging diversity and equality by just changing skin tones without addressing fundamental issues.

by contrast, suggesting a black person should be white comes from a long history of colorism and racism where whiteness was seen as superior. these two actions don't carry the same weight because the underlying power structures and historical context are vastly different. the intent behind reimagining a character in a different race — especially in fan art —often speaks to a desire for inclusivity, not an assertion of racial superiority. and idgaf if you want to keep ignoring history just because you’re a dumbass with a loud mouth, context matters no matter how irrelevant it seems.

I have a question. After how long do you plan to stop? What is the end goal here? Have you even thought about whether blackwashing will be acceptable after white and black people are generally regarded as social equals? At what point do we become "even"? When we achieve equality, will people perceive whitewashing as the same as blackwashing? In other words, if there's no apparent need for blackwashing and everyone is on equal footing, will people view whitewashing as harmless, making it acceptable to do like you think blackwashing is?

I'm not dismissing history; rather, I don't believe it determines whether one thing is right while another isn't, even though they are fundamentally the same. You use history as a shield to support your argument.

“You aren't a good person for being racist towards pale skin”

this sentiment overlooks that the conversation is rarely about actively discriminating against pale skin but rather about expanding representation. racism involves power structures that systematically oppress groups of people. the experience of being a person of color in a society built on white supremacy is vastly different from the discomfort someone might feel when a character is reimagined as black in fan art.

No, you are just conveniently forgetting that you can, and many do, do both and claim it's just the more palatable one.

I will just restate what I said already.

Racism does not require the superiority in power or numbers that white people in America have. It is merely an attitude or belief, usually derogatory, about a race or ethnicity that is not true.

Experience holds no relevance; hate remains hate, and the severity of one form does not justify the acceptance of another.

Though I'm smart enough to realize it's not your intent, your last line implies you are well aware backwashing is racist. You just believe you can justify it, and everything is good.

aside from quite literally all of this, natlan is NOT fucking based off of southern or nothern america (holistically that is). they mixed native american and AFRICAN culture. africa, as you so kindly have presented us with the “evidence” with (which within itself is a retarded argument but regardless), shows that the LARGE majority is dark: especially the historical figures and spiritual deities.

No, Latin American cultures are Natlan's main sources of inspiration.

The inspiration for Children of the Echos comes mainly from Mayan and Aztec cultures.

Scions of the Canopy draw inspiration from Mayans, Aztecs, and the people of Peru.

People of the Springs is inspired by (Aztec clearly) Oceania, supposedly particularly Polynesia, and Hawaii even more so.

Masters of the Night Wind are also influenced by Aztec culture, although much remains unknown about them.

We have not visited the Collective of Plenty.

And the Flowerfeather clan is likewise mostly Aztec inspired.

And that is just the tribes themselves.

Whatever African elements exist are few and far between. Regarding native Americans, honey, those are native Americans. Aztecs and Mayans are native to the Americas (plural).

How do you explain tatacos, by the way?

Fix your geography.

If you wanna talk about majorities here, then accept the fact that the majority of Natlan's inspiration is Latin America.

“oh but it’s just inspiration!” no, you literally don’t get to fucking make this shitty ass excuse when ya’ll literally went through hell and back to convince people that since nahida’s based off the hindu moon goddess, she had to be white to fit the description of her.

The one bringing up that argument is you.

i’ll copy paste exactly what i said before in one of my previous posts:

yes, she’s based off a hindu moon goddess who’s described as pale and sure that could’ve been the reason she’s nearly the colour white — but how come candace, who’s based off kandake, a fully black woman, is presented as being slightly tan? you can’t pick and choose what you represent and honestly the idea that nahida’s character is supposed to be a depiction of the moon goddess is disrespect to the goddess herself (please go look at a singular picture of her and you’ll understand the utter tragedy).

To reiterate, this is not my stance, you are engaging in a different argument.

Given how badly you guys want to persuade others that Ororon should resemble his inspiration, honestly, this "the idea that Nahida's character is supposed to be a depiction of the moon goddess is disrespect to the goddess herself" is kind of ironic.

and because you seem to love bitching and complaining about non existent barriers pale skinned people are facing, mondstadt and frankly fontaine too, are just as shitty at representing culture and history as the rest of them!!

And then all the high fantasy books based around European mythos exploded into flames. Amen.

It literally doesn't matter, which is why nobody gives a damn. They don't believe that proper portrayal of their cultures actually matters so much. Not in a clearly fictional and unrealistic game like Genshin. They don't care; if you approached one of them on the street, you would get "that's not realistic" and "what does it matter? It's just a game," and then they would move on with their lives.

and yeah, spreading this much anti-black sentiment during black history month SHOULD earn you a nazism award.

Anti-black fucking where. Pointing out how black people can be racist isn't fucking "anti-black,” you absolute twat.

working on natlan charms!

#congrats you get the big boy/girl writing for this argument.

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therealsehinton · 4 years ago

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Race and the Outsiders

Y'all don't seem to care about whitewashing or lack of representation or poc being rightfully upset about situations, so I'll try to spell it out politely.

Johnny Cade was coded as being a poc. If that wasn't obvious enough with lines like "I'm too dark to have blonde hair," its obvious cuz a white actor, who was already tan may I add, was literally given brownface to further darken his complexion. Because Johnny Cade was not written as white nor was he written as a person with a tan.

Here's the issue. Susan obviously imagined a very brownskinned Johnny, obviously, and yet she did not cast a poc as Johnny. And this has furthered stories and art of Johnny Cade in which he is completely white washed for the sake of his actor, despite the fact that he is not pale, and despite the fact that there are implications he may not be white. And that's bad. Many poc read the outsiders, watched the movie, and thought they had representation. And thats bad. When someone politely asked SE Hinton if Johnny is a poc and she said "Ralph is Italian", that's bad.

Johnny was coded as a poc but no one wanted to commit to representation. So people online and in fandoms are providing what they feel they need, I personally am providing what I feel I need. I use characters in the outsders as a way to reflect on my issues with race, ethnicity, and identity. I may be defensive about Johnny Cade being white, but thats only because how heavily white washed he has been, by his own author. And by the fact that SE Hinton would rather do brownface than actually give the representation she obviously pictured in her mind.

Here's something else that's bad. Tulsa Oklahoma has always had a large population of color, and there have always been many black people and first nations people in Tulsa. Much of Tulsa's history with classism and separation literally hinges on its racism and segregation. There were areas separated by poverty, and those impoverished places hosted a majority black community.

SE Hinton took both a hispanic of color subculture and a bipoc class issue and completely gentrified and white washed it. Claimed she didn't see that many bipoc growing up, and took the entire issue of class in Tulsa, Oklahoma and made it about white boys hating white boys--when history will tell you it is anything but that. She completely erased the image of bipoc in Tulsa, and they have a huge impact on the history of the town.

Because of that. Bipoc are always erased in fandom discussions, and just the other day people were getting MAD because a latinx person claimed that the "greaser" subculture was a hispanic thing. These are the negative influences of white washed history. Many people in this fandom are racist and/or get mad when you try to involved race in the discussion. All because of SE Hinton's impact. So many people here weren't even aware of "greaser" origins, its sickening.

If you're going to get mad when poc try to insert themselves in this fandom and in this story, you better reflect. Because this book should belong to us, this book should be our representation. We were robbed of what the outsiders could give us and now we're trying to reclaim both its story and our history in Tulsa, Oklahoma. We're going to get defensive if you further try to erase us from rightful discussions, and if that's a problem with you maybe you should seek out a fandom that takes place in a predominantly white area or something.

#se hinton #the outsiders #johnny cade #tim shepard #idk yall are weird

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itsclydebitches · 3 years ago

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TBH I think the whole "You didn't have an issue with this in 'insert x show here' but you have an issue with it in RWBY? What are you, sexist?" thing can easily be defused with a simple, "How did RWBY present this plot-point compared to the show I like?"

Sure, technically Cinder Fall and Darth Maul are the 'same' character, but how are the two presented in their respective shows? Cinder eats up screentime and none of it goes anywhere and gets frustrating. Maul is a relatively minor villain that had one season's worth of attention in CW and then was the villain of a few episodes throughout Rebels before getting killed off.

The only reason someone would be confused as to why people like Maul but hate Cinder is if they just read the two's respective wiki pages.

Really the whole "Your issues with RWBY are just subconscious misogyny" is just some people wanting to slap labels onto others so they can feel validated on not agreeing with their opinions.

Generally speaking, I'm wary of any take that boils down to a single sentence, "You're just [insert accusation here]." Not because such accusations are always 100% without merit—with a canon dealing with as many sensitive subjects as RWBY, combined with a fandom as large and diverse as it has become, you're bound to come across some people whose "criticism" stems primarily from bigotry—but because such dismissive summaries never tackle the problem a fan has pointed out. If one fan goes, "Ruby's plan was foolish because [reasons]" and the response to that is "You just can't handle a woman leader," then that response has failed to disprove the argument presented. The thing about "criticism" based in bigotry is that there isn't actually a sound argument attached because, you know, the only "argument" here is "I don't like people who aren't me getting screen time." So you can spot that really easily. The person who is actually misogynistic is going to be spouting a lot of rants about how awful things are... but very little evidence as to why it's awful, leaving only the fact that our characters are women as the (stupid) answer.

And yes, there is something to be said for whether, culturally, we're harder on women characters than we are men. Are we subconsciously more critical of what women do in media simply because we have such high expectations for that representation and, conversely, have become so used to such a variety of rep for men—including endlessly subpar/outright bad stories—that we're more inclined to shrug those mistakes off? That's absolutely worth discussing, yet at the same time, acknowledging that doesn't mean those criticisms no longer exist. That's where I've been with the Blake/Yang writing for a while now. I think fans are right to point out that we may be holding them to a higher standard than we demand of straight couples, but that doesn't mean the criticisms other fans have of how the ship has been written so far are without merit. Those writing mistakes still exist even if we do agree that they would have been overlooked in a straight couple—the point is they shouldn't exist in either. Both are still bad writing, no matter whether we're more receptive to one over the other. Basically, you can be critical of a queer ship without being homophobic. Indeed, in an age where we're getting more queer rep than ever before, it's usually the queer fans who are the most critical. Because we're the ones emotionally invested in it. The true homophobes of the fandom either dropped RWBY when the coding picked up, or spend their time ranting senselessly about how the ship is horrible simply because it exists, not because of how it's been depicted. Same for these supposed misogynists. As a woman, I want to see Ruby and the others written as complex human beings, which includes having them face up to the mistakes they've made. The frustration doesn't stem from me hating women protagonists, but rather the fact that they're written with so little depth lately and continually fall prey to frustrating writing decisions.

And then yeah, you take all those feelings, frustrations, expectations, and ask yourself, "Have I seen other shows that manage this better?" Considering that RWBY is a heavily anime-inspired show where all the characters are based off of known fairy tales and figures... the answer is usually a resounding, "Yes." As you say, I keep coming across accusations along the lines of, "People were fine with [insert choice here] when [other show] did it," as if that's some sort of "Gotcha!" moment proving a fan was bigoted all along, when in fact the answer is right there: Yes, we were okay with it then because that show did it better. That show had the setup, development, internal consistency, and follow through that RWBY failed to produce, which is precisely what we were criticizing in the first place.

What I also think is worth emphasizing here is how many problems RWBY has developed over the last couple of years (combining with the problems it had at the start). Because, frankly, audiences are more forgiving of certain pitfalls when the rest of the show is succeeding. I think giving a Star Wars example exemplifies that rather well. No one is going to claim that Star Wars is without its problems (omg does it have problems lol), but there's enough good there in most individual stories to (usually) keep the fans engaged. That doesn't mean that they're not going to point out those criticisms when given the chance, just that disappointment isn't the primary feeling we come away with. Obviously in a franchise this size there are always exceptions (like the latest trilogy...), but for most it's a matter my recent response to The Bad Batch, "I have one major criticism surrounding a character's arc and its impact on the rest of the cast, and we definitely need to unpack the whitewashing... but on the whole yes, it was a very enjoyable, well written show that I would recommend to others." However, for many fans now, we can't say the same of RWBY. Yang getting KO'ed by Neo in a single hit leads into only Blake reacting to her "death" which reminds viewers of the lack of sisterly development between Yang and Ruby which segues into a subpar fight which messes with Cinder's already messy characterization which leads to Ruby randomly not using her silver eye to save herself which leaves Jaune to mercy kill Penny who already died once which gives Winter the powers when she could have just gotten it from the start which results in a favorite character dying after his badly written downfall and all of it ends with Jaune following our four woman team onto the magical island... and that's just two episodes. The mistakes snowball. RWBY's writing is broken in numerous ways and that's what fans keep pointing to. Any one of these examples isn't an unforgivable sin on its own, but the combination of all of them, continuously, representing years worth of ongoing issues results in that primary feeling of, "That was disappointing."

Looking at some of the more recent posts around here, fans aren't upset that Ruby is no longer interested in weaponry because that character trait is Oh So Important and its lack ruins the whole show, they're upset because Ruby, across the series, lacks character, so the removal of one trait is more of a problem than it would be in a better written character. What are her motivations? Why doesn't she seek answers to these important questions? Why is her special ability so inconsistent? Where's her development recently? What makes Ruby Ruby outside of wielding a scythe and wanting to help everyone, a very generic character trait for a young, innocent protagonist? We used to be able to say that part of her character was that obsession and we used to hope that this would lead to more interesting developments: Will Ruby fix/update their weapons? Is her scythe dependency the reason why others need to point out how her semblance can develop? What happens if she is weaponless? Surely that will lead to more than just a headbutt... but now we've lost hope that this trait will go anywhere, considering it has all but disappeared. Complaints like these are short-hand criticism for "Ruby's character as a whole needs an overhaul," which in turn is a larger criticism of the entire cast's iffy characterization (Who is Oscar outside Ozpin? Why was Weiss' arc with her father turned into a joke and concluded without her? etc.) and that investment speaks to wanting her to be better. We want Ruby to be a better character than she currently is, like all those other shows we've seen where the women shine. Reducing that to misogyny isn't just inaccurate, but the exact opposite of what most fans are going for in their criticisms.

#rwby #rwde #mymetas

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dukeofdelirium · 5 months ago

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I completely encourage new fans to engage with fandom, that’s not an issue at all.

I love Death Note. I’ve loved it for over half of my life and it’s one of my favorite series of all time. But when it comes to ST fans who will inevitably infiltrate it when this adaptation is released, that makes me very wary for good reason.

The DN fandom is well established and has its own vibe going on. And the majority of us are well into adulthood. We also don’t have issues with nuance or character analysis and things of the like. We also are capable of handling “problematic” material given the content of the story, obviously.

That just isn’t the case with what I’ve seen from the ST fandom at large. This fanbase is overwhelmingly toxic and unpleasant, something the DN fandom is not and I really REALLY do not want to see my beloved fandom be wrecked as a result of said adaptation, which I think is most of our concerns as DN fans.

My biggest issue with the ST fans involving themselves in DN material is them erasing the Japanese aspect of the story. Many of them have never consumed Death Note either in its anime adaptation or its original manga, and have no idea what they’re even talking about either. I’ve seen them pushing for white actors to be cast in these character roles, going so far as to use white actors FROM stranger things. It really pisses me off. DN fans have had to deal with whitewashing already once before from Netflix. We do NOT want to see it again. There is a huge racism problem in the ST fandom, that’s one thing I’ve noticed that does not sit well with me at all.

Not only that, but I simply don’t think the Duffer Brothers are capable of adapting this story well. I don’t think they have the writing capability to tackle these characters like Tsugumi Ohba. I think they might come across as caricatures more than anything, which will be really upsetting.

Anyway, all that being said, as a huge DN fan I definitely do encourage people to watch or read Death Note if they’ve never seen it. It’s truly a brilliant series with interesting characters and themes. But I think new fans should be respectful of this fandom as well, and of fandom members who have been here for a long time. And I think many ST fans lack that respectfulness and will instead just bust into our shit and try to run this fandom like it’s theirs and that won’t blow over well with DN fans

thinking again about how supposedly the Duffer Brothers are gonna make a Death Note adaptation lmao. I cant wait for this fandom to get overrun with idiotic ST fans who can’t handle morally questionable characters and who will start foaming at the mouth at the mere mention of Lawlight 😂

idk why they’re even trying to adapt DN either. literally no one wants another DN reboot. nothing they try will ever outshine the manga and its anime adaptation and I for one won’t give a shit unless they have lawlight make out sloppy on the stairs 🤷🏻‍♂️ the gay subtext was fine in 2003 but its 2024 now so we need them explicitly canon or what’s the point

like I’m serious. the only way I’m watching this is if they make lawlight a thing lmao cuz what else could they have to say about Death Note that I can’t get out of a lawlight edit set to My Immortal on YouTube

#death note #stranger things #duffer brothers

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seyaryminamoto · 4 years ago

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What would you think if we had to wait 30 years for an Azula redemption arc like how fans of THE KARATE KID had to wait 30 years for Johnny Lawrence and Chozen to be redeemed? What did you think when Chozen was redeemed?

<.< and how do YOU know I watched Cobra Kai, huh, huh, Anon?!?!?

(did everyone watch Cobra Kai...? x’D)

To be perfectly honest, I wouldn’t be surprised if it takes them forever to redeem Azula. It feels like something they’d only do when people stop talking about ATLA as much as they do these days, something to bring back attention to the franchise if things start looking grim for their other ventures in it. A lot of content creators wind up caving in to whatever the loudest or most loyal fans ask for, and it’s safe to say that I’ve seen no louder or more persistent community in the Avatar fandom than Azula’s fans looking forward to her redemption. Maybe they think our posts are too mean and they’ll refuse to give us what we want because of that x’D but I also can imagine them doing this, however controversial it may be, mainly to bring attention back to the franchise if it ever falls into irrelevance again.

As for what I’d think... honestly, Anon, if it’s done right, I’ll be fine with it. If it’s done organically, with proper development, letting Azula actually establish new bonds with people, giving her true growth, addressing the problems she has while helping her reorient herself to better purposes without sacrificing her identity in the process? I’ll clap it out even if it happens 30 years later. I’ve been here 8 years already, I can wait a while longer if that’s what they’re going to force us to endure (?)

If done poorly, however...? I’ll ignore it, frankly, same as I’ve learned to ignore all canon material that is either not well written, or founded upon a myriad of retcons, or an attempt to whitewash characters, or just... uninteresting? x’D Misquoting Pirates of the Caribbean here: “Canon is more what you’d call ‘guidelines’ than actual rules” :’D so if canon fails Azula, I can just as well fling it overboard and continue sailing off towards whatever horizon I want for our girl, simple as that :’D

As for Chozen! Tbh... I didn’t hate how they redeemed him? I mean, the trip to Okinawa is probably one of the best things in the third season, and I enjoyed a lot of the twists there (soooo much better than the overdose of high school karate drama, my god...). That being said, I remember Chozen as such an irrational two-dimensional character that it was simultaneously great to see him grown and different, and also disappointing because we didn’t actually get to see that growth happen. It makes sense, though, it works for the character fairly well to have had help and guidance from people who taught him better than the completely batshit behavior he exhibited during The Karate Kid II. And, if I may, it’s actually NICE to see a character who actually got his shit together during the 30 years between The Karate Kid and Cobra Kai x’D while I do enjoy Johnny’s trainwreck redemption arc, it can be a little unsettling to think that he couldn’t get his life in order for that long (same as Kreese, who is basically a moustache-twirling bad guy no matter how many tragic stories of his Vietnam experiences we might see). So it was good for Chozen to still have enough of his old presence while also bringing out a new, more human side to the character.

At the same time, if people find his growth too easy because we didn’t see it happen, I get that too and I can’t blame them if they complain for that. Then again, we’d need a whole different TV show about Chozen if we want to see all his turbulent journey to peace and true inner strength, and I’m not sure they’ll be down for producing that? Either way, he played a good role in the story, he finally broke the mold of villains never growing out of their bad habits and toxic mentalities, and he was pretty entertaining to watch, so I have very few complaints myself (there’s a lot more things worth complaining about in season 3 beyond Chozen, honestly x’D lots of convenience writing, so much unnecessary drama, excessive love triangle BS, a very unrealistic depiction of a journey to recovery for a character who received as much damage as Miguel did...? I’d sooner frown upon all that than on Chozen’s offscreen journey to redemption, personally...).

#anon #cobra kai and Azula I guess???#first time I talk about it here isn't it #I don't think I ever did before #I admit #the first two seasons really blew me away #they're basically official sequel fanfiction #and it shows #these people really love this story and these characters #if they find people who genuinely love Azula and know how to write #and THEY are the ones to redeem her in future canon content?#please... go right on ahead and make it happen #I encourage it gladly

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generic-ghost-ghoul · 4 years ago

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I’ve been trying to piece together my thoughts about the Bad Batch premiere since I first watched it. If you want to watch in real time how I parse out my thoughts and feelings, keep reading.

SPOILERS BEYOND THIS POINT

Overall I really enjoyed the first episode. I’ve been excited for this show for months and the premiere did not let me down. I know others felt different and that’s fine, though I haven’t liked how some people have gone about expressing their dislike (whitewashing criticisms notwithstanding).

I’ll start with some of the positives. I loved Omega’s characterization. As someone who has worked with kids, the way she mirrors Hunter and fixates on the Bad Batch is something I’ve seen kids do so many times. If the first episode is anything to go by, Omega will likely be one of my favorite characters in the show. I’m not keen on her being a clone, but I’ll reserve judgement on that for now, until more of the story develops.

I also particularly liked the glimpse of Echo’s Post Traumatic Stress we got. Seeing him panic when he woke up in a medical exam room being seen to by a droid has given me hope that we might get to see him work through his trauma. The fact that we got his reaction at all is already more than anything we got from TCW.

The negatives are few and far between for me, but they are pretty egregious. The most glaring of the cons is the whitewashing, of course. There are many people who can better articulate why the the paleness of the Bad Batch is bad, but I’ll do my best to explain it concisely. While I don’t recall it being explicitly stated, the Bad Batch are implied to be genetically superior to the standard clones, like Jesse or Waxer. This isn’t bad in itself, but paired with the fact that the Bad Batch are animated with lighter skin tones and more Anglo facial features, it becomes a problem which perpetuates racist and colorist ideas. If this was a one-off thing, it would be frustrating and leave a bad taste, but this creative decision is one that has been made across franchises for years and it wears people down. Listen to the voices that are upset by this because it’s been a problem for years in all media, not just Star Wars.

The second problem I had was Wrecker’s characterization. When he was introduced in TCW, he was presented as a loud and brash character. We were definitely given the impression that he didn’t necessarily think things through as thoroughly as his Bad Batch counterparts. Parts of the fandom took that and characterized him as the “dumb one” in fics, which I didn’t like. I like it even less now that the show has apparently done the same thing. Wrecker’s infantilization frustrates me for a lot of reasons and at least one ties back into the white washing problem. Wrecker is animated as the Bad Batch member with the darkest skin tone and he’s also characterized as the most violent and infantile. This plays heavily into racist stereotypes and caricatures and I don’t care for it.

My final thought is more about how some of the fandom reacted to the episode. I don’t care if people don’t like the show. I do care if they flood the general tag with nonconstructive hate. You can have a negative opinion of the show and I won’t even ask you to defend your reason. But if your reasoning for not liking the show isn’t anything beyond that it just didn’t vibe with you, please use a different tag, like Bad Batch Hate. Reserve the general tag for those who enjoy the show, create content for it, and have important and valid criticisms of the show.

TLDR; Overall I enjoyed the premiere of Bad Batch and am looking forward to the rest of the series. Didn’t like the whitewashing or Wrecker’s infantilization.

#the bad batch spoilers #bad batch spoilers #tbb spoilers #the bad batch #tbb

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quibble-squibble · 2 years ago

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You didn’t come off as belittling, don’t worry, and you don’t need to apologize for events you didn’t have a hand in

Onto the point, I also see a lot of people get tripped up on the fact that Adam is an abuser, a lot of people don’t want to talk abt the issues in his writing bc certain subsets in the fandom will harass them for it bc they see it as “defending an abuser”, even if the person is in no way defending his abusive actions, just talking abt the issues of his writing. I’ll talk more about this in a second bc I’m gonna make a detour

The fans who think he’s better as an obstacle for the yangblake relationship are also part of this problem with whitewashing- or in this case pinkwashing- the Adam issues and how they relate to the white fang plot and racism discussion.

A lot of (in my own experience) white queer fans who like yangblake don’t want to acknowledge the racism within Adam’s writing and use accusations of queerphobia to silence people talking abt it as well, even if ppl trying to have these conversations are queer themselves

And a big centre of this conflict is that to many white queers- racism doesn’t bother them as much as they claim it does. They don’t want to talk abt racism bc it makes them uncomfy, or they have an immature understanding of what racism is and entails so they can’t recognize it in themselves and the writing

So PoC fans who try to have these discussions (and even point out racism coming from the fandom) are shouted over and accused of queerphobia in order to silence the conversation. This trend isn’t unique to this fandom, it’s actually rather common for white queer fans to suddenly not care abt racism within media once they get queerness in there- even if it’s just coding. And that does get taken advantage of her I believe

Anyway, onto Adam again:

I’ve also seem som (uncommon in my personal experience, but not nonexistent) attempt by Adam fans to try and deflect from his abusive actions or even claim that he wasn’t abusive- this is absolutely ridiculous to me, I fully understand that Adam was abusive and when I discuss him I’m never trying to say he wasn’t or that the abuse was justified etc etc

I actually specifically believe that acknowledging and discussing Adam’s abusive actions are vital to understanding his character issues

Bc to me ppl are missing the point they should be getting, that the question isn’t “is he abusive or not?” (He was) nor “should you defend his abusive actions?” (No), rather the question that should be focused on is:

Why did the writers choose to make him an abuser?

Bc when it comes to media literacy and parsing apart the white fang plotline and the racism within it, viewing things from a meta textual perspective is necessary

Adam is a fictional character who has no real control over his actions- he’s written a certain way by real people in our world who made the conscious choice to make him act the way he does

So why was this decision made? Why did they choose to make him an evil radical civil rights leader, and then make him an abuser*?

*referring to the swap between Adam seemingly not caring abt Blake leaving in v1-2 and then being her ex bf in v3

This is extrapolation- I don’t know the writers personally do of course I can’t know exactly why they made these choices, I can only make inferences based on text and what I know of their words on the matter

We do know that the writers acknowledge that the faunus and white fang idea was a mistake, and they should’ve have tried to write a story on such a serious topic without any experience with what they were intending on talking about

And they soft dropped the faunus plotline after the mistral arc, it seems like they don’t really want to focus on the faunus plotline anymore- which is a double edged sword bc that was all of Blake’s character but still this is generally a good decision

But the Mistral arc (v4-5 in particular, since v6 was just the Adam/Blake tie up at the end) was this weird area where they already had that plotline unavoidably part of the story, they couldn’t avoid it, gotta wrap it up somehow, so they had to change Adam. Bc they didn’t know how to write a direct clash between two political ideals

So that’s how you end up with what’s essentially Blake fighting back against her abusive ex… with political coating on it.

And this doesn’t work at all bc an abusive relationship has a bad guy- the abuser- and trying to put this victim/abuser dynamic on a political conflict was a really bad idea, bc by this they indirectly associate his politics as abusive and evil… but his politics are rooted in real ideals* that have points, and it’s also rooted in his own systemic mistreatment

*in his ideals that have points in referring to using matters other than passiveness to attain rights, which is a root of the reactionary caricature that Adam’s minority supremacist comes from

It’s also bad bc in a political sense, Blake is the one enforcing (state) violence against him- which is completely contradictory to their interpersonal dynamic!

(It’s worth noting that the white fang was in part based on the civil rights movement from the 50s-60s in America, so this bastardized Malcolm X vs MLK Jr conflict is present here, even though MLK’s politics actively criticize white moderatism)

To me Adam feels very much the victim of hatesink, specifically in a way that’s meant to distract from his politics (strawman fallacy), bc his abusive actions towards Blake are very much an interpersonal conflict- it has a veneer where they relate it to their political differences, but not really (it only goes as far as mean vs nice), the interpersonal relationship is the focus

And what this does is- it distracts the audience from his politics, from what he experienced, from what he was originally trying to say

And this too is a part of respectability politics and the defense of the status quo

A villain makes a valid criticism of system oppression within society- and then the writers have him blow up a puppy so everyone cheer as the heroes (ppl by and large benefitted by the status quo and those oppressive systems) defeat them! The original issue is never addressed.

The entire first two volumes of the white fang plot is a lot of team Rwby beating up civil rights activists, which is really bad considering there’s two humans (both of which commit micro aggressions towards faunus), a Schnee (no further explanation needed), and Blake- one of the most privileged faunus in Remnant

And with Adam, Blake is very much tying back to the Moderate White Woman, specifically with the trope of the victimized moderate white woman. Adam- the dangerous radical- is abusive to the upper middle class white woman, so him (and his politics) need to be stopped

And you’re right- Adam being a terrible abuser CANT be dismissed or swept aside, and he DOESNT have much to his character than that (aside from his politics which go unaddressed outside the lens of “he’s abusive and power hungry”)

But why is that? Isn’t that a little insidious? To have him be so conveniently awful that talking abt the racism within his writing is swept aside?

Bc he didn’t choose to do that, he was written to do that by the same writers who wrote the rest of the white fang plot

It’s a distraction from the original point, what Adam personally has been through- not that he’s a uwu tragic sad boy and that absolves him- but that there are very real hideous effects of systemic violence against faunus within remnant that Blake and Ghira do not feel the need to address beyond platitudes.

As for Sienna- I consider her also a victim of this, bc she was essentially reduced to a stepping stool, a tool for Adam’s hatesink. (And I still can’t tell if she has more or less dignity from the writing than him)

They wave her in front of the audience like “see? She believes in using force but she has more standards, unlike this evil radical supremacist!” And then Adam kills her (there she goes, into the fridge), furthering his hatesink, and conveniently getting Sienna and her politics out of the way

Now the white fang (once Adam is removed) is just ready and waiting for Ghira and Blake to take it over!

Sienna’s politics go unaddressed, and the Belladonna politics not having worked in the past (or how they just gave up being activists when they didn’t get to be in charge, marching home to their mansion to pout) are equally unaddressed

It’s the return of the status quo, the triumph of the white moderate who ask for rights “nicely”

And yes, Sienna doesn’t come with the abuser label… bc she died. I truly do not believe that if she hadn’t died they wouldn’t use the same king of strawman distraction tactic on her OR have her just decide Ghira is right so they can get her political ideas out of the way.

Bc Rwby and it’s writers don’t like those politics and they don’t want to talk abt those politics, the show is coated in white moderate political ideas bc that’s palatable and confirms to a status quo

Sienna and Adam’s politics cannot conform to a safe status quo or moderate view so they cannot stay. If Sienna hadn’t died, they would’ve found another way to get rid of her ideas.

That’s why I feel discussion of Adam is so stunted, bc people refuse to acknowledge deeper meaning behind his character and it’s implications especially when set against Blake and the wider white fang plotline

Bc yes he’s an abuser, but many people in the fandom game that at face value instead of thinking beyond the text-

What politics and racial biases benefit from someone like Adam being written as an abuser? What’s being ignored? What’s being enforced?

But when trying to discuss this, the fandom distracts from the original point- “you just hate women” “you just don’t like bb” “you’re just an abuse apologist”

When! No! That wasn’t what most of us are trying to say! But these distractions work and ppl don’t listen to these issues

which, ironically, is the exact same tactic they used on Adam’s writing. The strawman distraction is a very old trick but here it is, still working

And that’s why I don’t like pretending this plot was something that’s it’s not- including Adam being abusive bc Adam’s abusiveness is very much part of the issue bc of how it was utilized to silence his (and Sienna’s) politics

However I do see your point of wanting to take away a less harmful message, you’re right and I can understand you perspective on that a little better than before.

It’s just hard to integrate bc for much of the fandom, they’re unable to take away a good interpretation without ignoring discussion of wider issues (or more commonly, weaponizing it to pretend these wider issues don’t exist)

I think both things can be true: 1) The White Fang/Faunus racism storyline could have been handled better than it was.

2) “Don’t let toxic abusers take over progressive movements, ‘cause their egoes will run them into the ground” is actually not a bad message all things considered.

#the faunus problem #rwde #i can’t say anything on the magneto killmonger stuff bc #i don’t read comics and the last time I saw a movie w either of them in it was several years ago #so I don’t recall enough to have something worthwhile to say on that comparison #but I think I got the gist of what you meant

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