#junecourse

[juney-blues]

June Egbert is, and always has been incredibly fascinating to me because of just, how many factors have conspired to make Homestuck fans show their collective transmisogynistic asses.

The main character of Homestuck transitioning is a planned future plot point for the official continuation of homestuck, that was spoiled in advance by a fan making a joke about finding some toblerones Andrew Hussie the author of homestuck hid in a cave.

The current main writers of Homestuck: Beyond Canon have went on record in an AMA confirming that this was indeed always the plan, even before they took up the project.

In spite of these facts, the general consensus among certain homestuck fans seems to be that "June Egbert" is purely a headcanon for the original comic that was "made canon" by a "Toblerone Wish" (a concept that didn't even exist at the time)

For a variety of reasons, the "canonicity" of the postcanon official continuations of homestuck is a mattter of much debate, (though a debate that most homestuck fans seem to err on a side of "it's not canon at all in the slightest," something the writers have feelings on I'm sure.)

All of these factors combined leave the concept of "June Egbert" in a very nebulous place. It's assumed by most to just be an "ascended headcanon" that was shoehorned in, it's a spoiler so it hasn't happened yet in any official media, and the official media it will eventually happen in is regarded by some to be nothing more than glorified fanfic.

If someone is talking about June Egbert, and you don't like the concept of June Egbert, you have your pick of a million different excuses for why she's fake and gay and not worth discussing and bad writing and just the authors doing a gay dumbledore*, paying lip service to representation while actually doing nothing.

And of course, lots of people *don't* like June Egbert! Rather than being introduced as transfem from the start, she's in this nebulous position of discovery where people have to truly reckon with the idea of a "Pre-transition Trans Woman."

You can try to write off *some* of the backlash as transphobia, because obviously not everyone in this fandom is gonna be cool about trans people.

But there's no shortage of fans just dying to tell you about how much they like reading her as transmasc, or the idea of her being nonbinary or genderqueer or genderfluid, or literally anything besides a trans woman. And since they're fine with all those other interpretations, there's obviously no implicit biases driving their distaste for the concept! (if you want to try explaining the concept of "transmisogyny" to people like this you're braver than I.)

you can trust them when they say it's *just* a problem with whether or not it makes sense with the writing, or it just doesn't feel right somehow, or any of the thousands of excuses that this writing situation gives them to just Not Like It.

It's just, so interesting to me. There's not a lot of characters out there that get a trans arc in this way, that leaves room for open denialism and insistence that we have our trans cake and eat it too... Because Homestuck is a timeline spanning multiverse story, lots of people seem to want it to be an alternate timeline thing. Assuring us we can have this character share space with a non-transitioning version of herself and it won't be weird or imply gross things about trans people.

If you ask me it feels like a plotline that'd be really good for exploring some gender horror though, finding your true self and then being demoted to a footnote, an alternate version, because everyone around you likes your pre-transition self more....

Anyway I have no broader point beyond "hey look at this isn't this kinda weird. You don't get this kinda stuff often!"

*side note: it's a little ghoulish I think to compare "a future trans plot point that hasn't been given the chance to even happen yet, in an already famously queer piece of media, from a nonbinary author" to "some stupid shit done by the literal most famous transphobe of all time" but that's perhaps a discussion for later.

[nekropsii]

I know the kids in general aren't your thing but what are your thoughts on june egbert as a whole?

I've seen opinions on her existence be pretty varied (tho I guess more recent years its a widely accepted fanon and uh some ppl treat her as canon when.. she's... not lmao..) so I'm curious on your opinion if you have one!

(I personally don't subscribe to the headcanon but otherwise I don't have any strong feelings about it ppl can do whatever they want forever lmao)

I've been vocal about this previously, but in my opinion, all J. Egbert is good J. Egbert. June, John, Transfem, Transmasc, Transneu, Nonbinary, Genderfluid, Multigender, whatever the fuck, I don't care, have fun. Whatever gender people subscribe to the character isn't my business, and I have zero way of telling what it means to people unless they're being super blatant about it, which... Doesn't actually happen often?

I have no way of telling if people subscribe to transfem!June wholesale because that gives them comfort, or transmasc!John because that gives them comfort, or genderfluid!Egbert because that gives them comfort, or even just... Cis Trans Ally John, because that gives them comfort. These are all things I've seen before. I just choose to assume good faith, as is healthier, and respect whatever OP is tagging. If they're tagging art as June, it doesn't matter if she looks the same as she does in canon, or if she's pre-transition, that's June to them, so I'll tag it as June myself. If they're tagging art as John, I tag it as John. I have no way of knowing what their idea of the sex of this character is, and I'd find it weird to "correct" them, when they could very easily just be drawing a headcanon they've had for years and found major comfort and gender euphoria in. I don't know their life.

I think the way people have been using June's confirmation- not canonization to HS^2/HS:BC, she hasn't appeared yet- as a way to be transphobic in any direction is vile. I think if you use June as a way to be transmisogynistic, you're an asshole and a transphobe. If you use June as a way to be bigoted against trans men, you're an asshole and a transphobe. If you're finding a way to use it to be bigoted against nonbinary or multigender people, you're an asshole and a transphobe. I would sure fucking hope this isn't a controversial statement. There's no good reason to be a bigot. A disagreement over gender headcanons is an especially pathetic reason to reduce yourself to transphobia. Come the fuck on now.

More Discussion Under the Cut:

Miscellaneous thoughts include... 1.) She is not canon to Homestuck proper. This is because every piece of Homestuck media outside of literal Homestuck (2009) itself has been very open about the fact that they are not canon to Homestuck (2009). Homestuck (2009) is canon to Homestuck (2009), and nothing else is. HS:BC is canon to itself. HS^2 is canon to itself. The Homestuck Epilogues is canon to itself. Pesterquest is canon to itself. Hiveswap is canon to itself. They are not canon to Homestuck, though. These aren't condemnations of these pieces of media, nor is it a reduction of the meaning of this form of the character to people, it just needs to be stated that they're not canon to Homestuck. This is by design, and is also a well advertised fact about them. 2.) She was not "always intended", or "always canon". I see a lot of people say that June was being intentionally alluded to since 2009, and... That's just... Really blatantly not the case? Extremely magical thinking happening there. I think if June was supposed to happen in Homestuck, and was allegedly intentionally alluded to in Homestuck constantly... She would have happened in Homestuck? There's nothing wrong with an author getting asked to make a certain gender headcanon canon and then, you know, canonizing it because they think it's cool, nor is there anything wrong with an author realizing that an interesting arc for a specific character would be a gender transition in sequel material. It doesn't have to always be a "This was all planned from the start" situation. As someone who is a writer... That's genuinely just not really how writing works, and it really isn't where Hussie's politics were at during the time. Hell, I know a lot of genders, pronouns, sexualities, races, ethnicities, religions, and disability statuses were changed throughout me working on my own writing projects. They weren't all "Planned from the Start", and there's nothing wrong with that. 3.) June fans, I am so sorry. You all deserve so much more than these years of J.K. Rowling-tier """canonization""". This was said to be something that was totally going to happen... On Twitter... Through a magical Toblerone wish... Several years ago. And nothing has really come of it since. Not even a hint!! That sucks so much. 4.) Not to be blunt, but some people are really misogynistic about her. Transitioning doesn't completely change your personality. It doesn't fix all of your problems and flaws. Growing into femininity doesn't magically make you a ditzy bimbo girly girl whose only personality traits are Cute, Stupid, and Female. That's just fucking weird, dog. The way some people treat her status as a woman reads very... Caliborn-esque...

[maybetheyregiants]

like. what bothers me more than anything is how little people gave a shit about john before June happened. like. I was there. nobody gave a shit about john. like literally to the point of being a meme that the only kids anyone cared about were the strilondes and maybe sometimes jade. so the fact that all of these transmasc and nonbinary headcanons (not to say there weren't any before, but they were largely a blip on the radar in terms of fanwork) of them popped up and gained traction basically overnight is like. oh so you just hate trans women. okay.

[dash-n-step]

Someone who's kept up with homestuck since the beginning and has seen all the crazy things the comic and Andrew Hussie does, first hand: "No you don't understand, June Egbert ruins the character because she goes against everything John's story leads up to, and she only exists to pander to an audience and blah blah blah"

Me who started reading homestuck in 2020 specifically because of the funny catgirl character, only to see her turn into an awesome euphoric nonbinary griffon who is then promptly used for a joke about how this decision would probably piss off everybody who only cared about their "waifu" or the story going the way they wanted, but the comic doesn't care because it's more fun this way: "Yeah, the main character being trans is, like, the most normal thing about this comic, good for her"

I'm going to tag this as junecourse because i know people probably don't even want to be reminded that people are still somehow arguing about this instead of just, like, letting sleeping dogs lie, but saw some people talking about it on twitter and just thought my perspective was funny

[crispy-crust]

i've talked about this at lenGth in multiple places but seeinG this has stoked that fire once more so fuck it why not i feel like typinG out a rant actually not believinG in june full stop is fuckinG stupid and shows a huGe lack of understandinG of the story and character as well as a straiGht up disreGard for canon itself if you hc her transmasc the OFFICIAL writers for the OFFICIAL CONTINUATION have said MULTIPLE TIMES that june is canon and was always planned even before the toblerone

sayinG june is "only canon to the epiloGues and beyond canon" also shows that you either did not understand them or just straiGht up didn't read them. aGain, official word

and sayinG or arGuinG that june can/should only be canon in one timeline (meat/candy) is stupid and also kinda just straiGht up disGustinG??? that implies horrible thinGs about trans people actually? usinG roxy as an excuse for this plays into the "you did not understand the story" thinG because if you read candy all the way throuGh you would very much know that roxy is not "just transmasc in meat" a lot of people try to arGue that june and her deadname (i don't wanna say it sorry) can co-exist and that due to doomed timelines anythinG is possible but aGain that's Gross and implies that june isn't the REAL one she's just a possibility that can happen in an alternate timeline to please the trans women and then all the *normal* fans can still have their boy character. it's very apparent they see transfems as an uncomfortable other and they feel that no character or person they love could ever be that. many other arGuments i see are stuff like "she acts like a Guy throuGhout the whole story, people refer to her as a man" and i'm like.... yeah? have you ever met a trans person???? like ever? and then the headcanon-inG of her as transmasc... do you Genuinely believe that this character who is well known for repressinG emotions fiGured out her Gender identity and transitioned before the aGe of the 12? and you think everyone in 2009 just accepted that? seeinG june as transmasc is throwinG canon out of the window and that's a little disrespectful no? don't we think that we should actually take the story itself into consideration when cominG up with headcanons for characters? so much of fandom headcanon culture is just slappinG a label on someone without considerinG how that affects the story or enhances the readinG of the character and i could Go into how this makes transmasc dave also a bit silly cuz a biG part of dave's arc is overcominG his internalized homophobia so havinG him be transmasc kinda messes with that a lot actually. but anyway the point is june is canon. no one in this fandom can read. i'd like to think that when they eventually fully canonize her in bc that'll reduce the discourse but knowinG this fandom it'll just Get worse.

im gonna fly off the handle

[controversialcoven]

I am desprately asking homestuck fans to stop tagging things that are specifically June as John thank you and goodnight

[calware]

the other day i got a comment on one of my posts talking about egbert that said something like "you can just say june :/" like are we really still doing this

[ultimatelyunassuming]

Fuck i miss when june was a prevalent hc. I miss her sometimes.

[milksrot]

i like June Egbert

[theminecraftbee]

on the topic of discourse and homestuck: whoo boy was the vriscourse a lot. I was not in the fandom while it was going but the looming shadow of it is still a lot. Now, Junecourse was something I did experience, but I'm not sure how common "queer headcanon that has been popular for maybe a year is abruptly made dubiously canon at a time when the source is inactive" is. other examples definitely wouldn't involve toblerones

i was out of the homestuck fandom by the time junescourse happened (i was on my way out and then the epilogue sort of drove me out before we got to homestuck^2), so i can't speak to that, but... the vriscourse......... i was there. i wasn't on the forums, sure, i wasn't on ground zero, but when i tell you i was there....... oh, the worst of dsmp apologist discourse aspires to be what vriscourse created........

[juney-blues]

gfdjkgdfhg god my "favourite" part of June Egbert Discourse™ is when people say she's a retcon,

as if half the entire plot of the comic isn't something hussie pulled out of their ass, lil cal being plot important is a retcon, the beta kids being ectosiblings is a retcon, some of the best plotpoints of the comic are probably retcons, a significant portion of the comic is a literal in-universe retcon!

this is a webcomic that ran for like 7 years and 8000 pages and i severely doubt even a quarter of it was fully formed in andrew hussie's clowny head by the time we see the first page.

We spend the entire comic making up bullshit that just barely fits into past events, why is it suddenly a bad thing when it involves looking at the eggiest character of all time and going "what if she was trans actually"

[nekropsii]

what is John's gender?

Well, I’d be inclined to say someone’s a little biased towards a particular answer, judging by the wording here.

If you’re going to ask questions about John/June in a gender neutral way, where their gender is either a question or up for personal interpretation, it’s good form and common practice to refer to them simply as “Egbert”, or “Jegbert”.

John is the masculine form of the character. June is the transfeminine form. Egbert is up for viewer interpretation. This is why you do not refer to depictions of June as John, and vice versa. It’s rude. Always check the original poster’s tags.

John is what is definitively canon to Homestuck as we know it. This doesn’t make it any more or less valid than those who abide by June, but it is what’s canon. Some people use this canonicity as an excuse to be transmisogynistic, and that’s not acceptable.

June is in a weird, unfortunate state where she was confirmed on Twitter to be an arc that will happen in the future of Homestuck^2’s story, by request of a fan. Homestuck^2 is definitively not canon, it’s effectively an official spinoff fanventure with some minor direction from Hussie. She has also not happened yet. She’s barely even been alluded to. It’s kind of sad- sorry to all June fans for the literal JK Rowling-tier representation. :/

[crappy-homestuck-confessions]

Saw someone say John and June coexisting was transphobic because it meant you were forcing one Egbert to stay closeted and no? Gender fluidity is a thing? Bigender is a thing? There are real life people who are 50/50 on whether to transition? I'm on E but could easily see myself having chosen not to transition and still being happy? Some of the Junecourse feels like nbphobia and transmed rhetoric in disguise.

.

[anonstucks]

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The rest is on you, have fun  ᵔᴗᵔ

[davekat-sucks]

I feel like the one thing Homestuck has improved on since postcanon was Junescourse.

2019 had June fans harassing people who headcanon John as transmasc or John/June as cis. Transphobes would harass June fans and leave mean comments on June fanart. June fans would to a point insist that June is canon and not liking that made you transphobic.

4 years later and June fans and John fans stay to themselves and like the fanart with the headcanons they prefer.

I feel like Homestuck^2’s pause caused this. It was supposed to make June “canon” (even though postcanon is outside canon, so June would not even be canon, more subjectively canon) and so John couldn’t be “canon” anymore to June fans, not even headcanon lest you be called transphobic.

I hope this new era of “like what you like I don’t care” stays the norm for the rest of the fandom’s existence.

And I’m glad I’m not a guilty gear fan. People are still arguing over bridget’s gender when you shouldn’t care. No real world impact will come from a video game character becoming a trans woman rather than a feminine male.

The Junecourse did lead to a point where an actual trans person was harassed for not liking June as trans. The modern generation would not believe the people they want to defend or push for more representation, would disagree with them. But I do agree we can at least go back to like what we like and respecting others for our preferences. If someone sees John as John and not June. That's fine. If someone takes the June headcanon as trans. That's fine too. If someone sees it as a genderbent, it's fine too. If someone sees June Egbert as a child of someone like JohnVris, JohnRose, Roxygen, Johnrezi, etc. that's also fine.

[jinxpologist]

the junecourse on tiktok is so bad