#joss whedon hater

[hainethehero]

A JOSS WHEDON HATER FOREVER- a think piece on how Avengers 1 set up Steve Rogers to be the MCU's punching bag for the rest of the franchise

(We all know Joss Whedon is an absolute garbage person. He's done many horrible things including being a racist, sexist moron who should be behind literal bars.) This is a commentary on his absolute shit writing for Avengers 1.

This one particular scene and the one following it is purely poor writing & direction for the character of Steve Rogers.👇

After Coulson dies, Fury addresses Steve and Tony and tosses Coulson's bloodied Captain America cards at Steve. He says something like "guess you never found the time to sign them" which is just horribly cruel and though not OOC for Fury, is not something he'd say lightly. We later realize here👇

...that he's secretly trying to put together the team. This is where he makes his big "there was an idea" speech and mentions that "Stark knows this." Because yeah, Tony was made aware of this in Iron Man 1 when Coulson visited and told Pepper. In contrast, Steve had no idea about the Avengers Initiative.

In fact, the dude was just pulled from the Valkyrie in the ice!! In the beginning scene of Avengers 1, we see him at the gym with the punching bag having LITERAL WAR FLASHBACKS about Bucky and Peggy and the Howlies! He's not stable and yet Fury confronts him and ropes him into the mission to get the Tesseract. Steve says, "you should've left it where you found it." And I can't help but think that maybe Steve means himself as well because dude just lost EVERYONE & EVERYTHING he literally knew and cared about.

Anyway, back to the point, Steve knows nothing about the Initiative but is suddenly made to feel guilty about Coulson's death in some kind of roundabout way of "convincing him to join the team" in honor of Coulson.

And then, to make matters WORSE, in the next scene they make HIM comfort Tony 👇

They make him say, "im sorry" (like it was his fault???!) and "he was just doing his job" and "is this the first time you've lost a soldier?" LIKE WTAF???

*INSERTS JACOB ELORDI MEME FROM EUPHORIA SAYING WHAT THE FUCKKKKK?!*

First of all, Steve barely knows these people! Second, he was fond of Coulson and I'm sure they would've been close friends. But did they have to GUILT-TRIP Steve into joining the team? Like, that's just dumb and proves that they don't actually give a fuck about his character!

AND TALK ABOUT MEAN! Fury at least knew about Steve losing Bucky on that train. He KNOWS Steve's first words when he woke up from sleep was "I had a date" reflecting the tragedy of the man out of time. To just rip him out of sleep and thrust him into a mission and later making him feel guilty about Coulson was just pure cruelty, making SHIELD no better than HYDRA. They all saw Steve as a pawn, another mindless soldier to carry out their missions and I hate JW for that.

Steve's character was not accurately portrayed nor was his trauma properly dealt with and so this is why today, we see alot of MCU "fans" calling Steve the worst avenger, lame, boring and basically a crutch to Tony's genius. (I'm a huge Tony Stark fan, don't @ me). It just felt that the mcu wanted to make Tony the ultimate hero- which is fine, Nothing's wrong with that- but they did it at the expense of Steve's character and trauma.

Sadly, this narrative continues all the way down to Endgame and for that I will always hate JW & the mcu's portrayal of Steve Rogers.

[aahsoka]

as a certified xander harris haterTM no i dont think i will check out that tag

[coraniaid]

reverse unpopular opinion meme: xander?

[Reverse unpopular opinion meme]

I like to consider my opinion of Xander Harris as being particularly complicated and nuanced, but – engaging in some critical self-reflection for just a moment – I think the objective truth is probably more that I’m just instinctively and aggressively contrarian about it.  I find that I tend to strongly disagree with most of the online takes about Xander I see, almost regardless of whether they’re pro or anti.  

I mean, on the one hand I do think it’s more than a bit silly to pretend, as many people seem to do, that Xander Harris is [somehow?] uniquely and only a Joss Whedon self insert [despite being written by multiple people] in a way that none of the other characters [that Whedon also created and that appear in the show Whedon created] apparently are. Or to ignore the fact that very often the audience is clearly meant to think that Xander is in the wrong and disapprove of his actions.  (You obviously aren’t supposed to be cheering for him when he lies to Buffy about Willow’s message about Angel in Becoming, for an easy example; or to be clapping and applauding him when he cheats on Cordelia or leaves Anya at the altar either.) And I think it would be wrong to dismiss the fact that Xander starts the show as a dumb but (mostly) harmless teenager and that, not only does he gradually mature and improve as a person as he grows up, he also [perhaps uniquely for this show?] manages to do so without killing even one person.    

But equally I would be lying if I didn’t admit that many of my least favorite episodes of the show are either Xander-centric episodes (Teacher’s Pet, The Pack, Bewitched, Bothered & Bewildered for example) or episodes in which Xander plays a non-trivial role in exactly the parts of the episodes I most dislike (his treatment of Buffy in Dead Man’s Party, say, or his speech in support of Riley in Into The Woods).  The haters are right to say that Xander does often treat his female friends and partners abysmally, often in ways that the show doesn’t seem to acknowledge or which it briefly acknowledges only to brush them off with no consequences.  There certainly are times when the writers expect the audience to cheer for Xander a lot more than I personally want to, or when he says something gross and sexist which is just meant to be funny and that the writers simply didn’t think critically about at all.  And the flipside of Xander being written by a range of different writers is that his character growth is often slow, halting or inconsistent (which, while arguably realistic, is not particularly fun to experience).  And unlike some of the fandom I don’t really believe anything Xander does can be handwaved away by him being deeply affected by what happened to his “best friend” Jesse in Season 1’s The Harvest: in fact I would put money on a majority of the show’s writers having no idea who Jesse was.

Anyway, none of that preamble is really in the spirit of the ask game, is it?

Um.  Five things I like about Xander, then.  No hedging or clarification except for what I heavily imply above (oh, and also the comics aren’t canon and don’t mean anything and actually don’t even exist … I mean, uh, what comics are we even talking about?).

I think the show resolves the initial Season 1 “love triangle” (in which Xander is really into Buffy and she doesn’t reciprocate his feelings or even seem to notice them, while similarly Willow is really into Xander and he doesn’t reciprocate her feelings or even seem to notice them) in about the best way it possibly could have done.  Buffy and Xander don’t ever get together and there’s never really any suggestion that they might – one or two odd moments in Season 2 aside, I guess? – and Willow musters the self-respect required to firmly reject Xander when he tries to ask her to the dance that Buffy had just turned him down for in Prophecy Girl.  Not only that, but Willow goes on to have a serious relationship with a guy who isn’t Xander and then comes out as a lesbian and continues to have serious relationships with woman who aren’t Xander, right up to the end of the final season.  And this happens all while the three of them stay very close friends; in fact Buffy and Xander at least are clearly better friends in the second half of the season than they were at the beginning of the show [when, after all, Xander had only just met her].  Whether or not that was planned from the beginning – and to be honest, I think the Buffy fandom as a whole wildly overestimates how much of the show was planned from the beginning – I think that’s a pretty unambiguously great way for that particular subplot to have be handled.   (Although the funniest and most geometrically pleasing resolution of the Season 1 love triangle would, of course, have been for Buffy and Willow to end up together.)

Speaking of Buffy and Willow, for all his faults Xander is consistently written as somebody who cares about his friends and wants them to be safe and happy.  As well as the obvious big moments – helping to save Buffy’s life in Prophecy Girl; his speech assuring Buffy that she’s his hero in The Freshman; repeatedly assuring Willow in Grave that he’ll always love her, even if she ends up killing him or destroying the world; that moment in Season 7 where Buffy sends him away to look after Dawn because she “needs somebody [she] can count on” – I think it’s fun when we get to see the three of them just hang out, in those quiet little moments they get to just all be kids together.  I am very firmly in the camp that thinks Buffy should have friends and be allowed to not be treated for an idiot for liking said friends or wanting to spend time with them.  Whatever else you can say about it, I think it’s obvious that this is how the show’s writers expect you to engage with the show.   That’s part of why I’m more forgiving than some people of episodes like I Robot, You Jane or Bad Eggs or Amends: these are all episodes in which I can believe that Xander is fundamentally a good kid who Buffy would want to be friends with, and that he’d grow up to be somebody she’d still want to be friends with as an adult.    

Some people online – mostly not on Tumblr – talk a lot of rot about Xander getting self-defense training or somehow reconnecting with the military persona he had in Halloween or otherwise Learning How To Fight, and I can’t overstate how glad I am that the show didn’t go in this direction.  Xander makes sense as a character precisely because he isn’t a fighter.  Because he doesn’t occupy that more stereotypically masculine role: because he is the one who gets rescued and brings in baked goods and that the other, more powerful but emotionally repressed characters can go to to talk about their feelings.  Because he is the person who, by the end of the show, can best reassure Dawn that she doesn’t need to be a Potential Slayer or have superpowers to be special.  This idea that Xander complains too much during the show about not having special powers and that the “solution” to “fix” this is to have him go out and get some (as opposed to this being a deliberate character arc in which Xander learns to accept that he’s never going to be that sort of person) is not one I have a lot of sympathy for.  The show already has a human male character who is trained as a fighter so he can go on patrol with Buffy: he’s called Riley Finn and he’s insufferable. 

Although the fandom as a whole loves to massively oversell how “abusive” the Scoobies respective parents are, I do think that Xander’s home life is a key part of understanding who Xander specifically is as a person.  And – again, however deliberately planned from the beginning or not it was – there’s something nicely disturbing about how we never get a big dramatic reveal about how awful Xander’s parents are: it’s just something that the writers just slowly build up to – from the idea in Season 1 that Xander doesn’t regularly eat cooked meals at home (���do your parents even own a stove?”), to Xander joking about his dad trying to “send [him] to some Armenians once” early in Season 2, or calling home to say he’s going to be out all night and having his mother clearly not recognize his voice, through to Cordelia revealing in Season 3 that he admitted to her that sleeps outside during Christmas to avoid his parents drunken fights  – until by Restless we can see Xander having nightmares about being trapped in his parents basement and having his father come down the stairs and we don’t need to have anything more than that explained to us.  I think that’s all really effectively done, and while I don’t think it excuses te way Xander behaves I do think it does a lot to make sense of it.

Again, while I think it’s possible to drastically overstate the Mind/Spirit/Heart metaphorical reading – I don’t think this is something the writers were consciously thinking about most of the time and I don’t think the reading of the show in which everyone is reduced to a part of Buffy’s own psyche is even particularly interesting except perhaps as an intellectual exercise – I do think it’s a reading that works pretty well for Xander. (Actually of the three elements, that’s surely the one that’s easiest to see: I’ve never been completely sure why Willow is the Spirit rather than the Mind.)  Yeah, Xander can often be petty and jealous and selfish and hypocritical and refuse to analyze his own feelings: that doesn’t rule him out from being Buffy’s metaphorical heart, it’s evidence that he is.  Buffy can be all of those things too!  (I think I am rather more fond of Buffy herself than you are – she is my favorite character on the show, after all – but I don’t like Buffy because she’s flawless and perfect; I like her because she’s interesting and realistically flawed, and very often flawed in the same ways as her friends.)

[tainbocuailnge]

this is a hater post and not a substantiated critique. having seen both koji fox and john crow (the guy who put hamilton all over stormblood) speak on convention panel streams it makes total sense why the english ffxiv translation is like that because koji fox moves like a simpsons character and john crow speaks like a joss whedon character.

[thowawayuntilfurthernotice]

"Viv and the Lackadaisy team solved everything like adults, didn't any of you haters watch the GlitchX livestream?"

First off, I love how people are so sure that Viv and her inner circle aren't still continuing to talk shit about other indie projects on Discord or that Viv isn't still liking tweets from hardcore stans that harassed the Lackadaisy team.

And second, why are you acting like celebrities who don't like each other can't put aside their differences when it comes to public events?

Ray Fisher put aside his hatred for Joss Whedon to promote the godawful theatrical cut of Justice League at press junkets back in 2017, Bret Hart still showed up to give a speech at the WWE Hall of Fame ceremony back in 2006 even though his relationship with the company was still sour at the time, and everyone who ever had the misfortune of working with Justin Roiland had to pretend like they liked the guy in public because they didn't want to get fired or blacklisted.

Also, I have a hard time believing that the GlitchX organizers didn't have a sit down with both parties beforehand. Because I seriously doubt the Lackadisy crew would have agreed to do the livestream if they didn't know that Viv was gonna be participating beforehand.

[raisedbythetv89]

Buffy fandom content that’s largely “let’s shame the spuffy and spike girlies!” (girlies used genderlessly) by constantly telling us how bad/wrong/fucked up/sick/crazy/in need of therapy we are under the guise of “concern” for us is so crazy and so funny and so embarrassing for those creators because they’re literally just joss whedon 2.0:

Hating/shaming/finger wagging and acting morally superior to a character/ship and their fans but at the same time being COMPLETELY dependent on said character/ship/fans you spend the majority of your time dumping on!! Like what on earth would you do for content if you took away the thing you spend 70-90% of your time shitting on??? Angel only got a 5th season BECAUSE of Spike - do you realize how crazy that is??? Joss spent all this time trying and failing to destroy Spike’s character because “it wasn’t the Spike show” (screamed in James’ face by joss as he is pinning him against a wall - there’s a guy who’s footsteps you want to follow in!) and then he’s using Spike as a way to save Angel just a few years later 💀💀💀 THAT IS SO EMBARRASSING FOR JOSS AND ANGEL 😹😹😹😹

Like I am so sorry you do not understand spuffy and spike - truly. If you don’t love him and spuffy I genuinely feel sad for you because you are missing out on SO MUCH FUN, beauty, gut wrenching heart ache, angst, healing, tenderness, absolute poetry and all around sexy, slutty time - spuffy is the ship that has EVERYTHING, performed by two absolutely PHENOMENAL actors with bonkers chemistry. Spuffy just is that girl proven by the fact that the haters are making podcasts and writing books just to shit on us (like we didn’t already cover all of it enough from the show’s creator, the patriarchy and the show itself???) DECADES later 😹😹😹

So my darling Spuffys - please don’t take these people’s misogyny and self hatred to heart. I know we’re all often chronically misunderstood and it can be so frustrating to witness a beloved character or ship endure the same treatment of being so horribly misunderstood and to see others support them but truly they’re just FURIOUS angel didn’t do what Spike did and that he doesn’t waste his time moping and hating himself and helps buffy to do the same. They’re hating from outside a club they can’t even get into because they don’t have the media literacy, emotional intelligence, and self confidence in who they are as people to love characters who are naughty and have fun doing it 😈

[centrally-unplanned]

Sarah Z released a new video on Buffy Season 6 - looks like she isn't the only one doing a recent Buffy binge, great minds Sarah! Given her long track record as a Buffy lover I give her props for finally going all in and making a project of it. As is going to be a surprise to no one, I am pretty middling on this video - lets go to the random thoughts:

--- My first comment on this was going be a bit of a question mark around its title, "In Defense of Buffy's Most Hated Season". Season 6? Most hated? Sure you not thinking of Season 4? Or Season 1? Season 6 is very consistently ranked as a higher Season by most - no Season 5 or 3, sure, but normally top 3 or 4. Its a bit of a "cultural baggage" idea - because of, hm, reasons, it was an extremely controversial season back in the day. But removed from its airing that drama faded away, and particularly given that season 6's musical episode is one of the most lasting legacies of the show, now it stands on its merits and is generally liked. Sarah even almost accidentally cops to that with one of her example reddit posts, from a Season 6 hater but who frames that as a hot take:

However, looks like we agree, because Sarah changed the name of the video! Now its called "You Should Watch Buffy Season 6". I respect and empathize, honestly, realizing the cultural consensus has changed can take some time.

--- For a movie review about defending Season 6, it actually spends half of its analytical run-time criticizing it. And I was not swayed by these - which I am sad about, I have my critiques of the season too. Just trying to explain why the following thoughts are about criticisms, given the title.

--- Does anyone out there interpret Riley's departure in Season 5, and one-episode return in Season 6, as Buffy "losing a good man, and being shown the life she could have had married to him if she didn't screw up"? Because that is what Sarah thinks, and that to me is a buck wild take. Riley is not a subtle character, its pretty much a defining trait of his. Pretty sure his departure in Season 5 is him leaving a bad relationship, that is bad for him and Buffy, and Buffy realizing too late that she was letting pride and self-involvement get in the way of fixing it. Not that it necessarily could be fixed, or should be, just that that was the source. And in season 6 - this to me can't be any clearer - Riley's point in returning is to highlight that he, who was in an awful place in Season 5, got better. He got over it. He's strong even when he doesn't look it. And Buffy is too. She will get over it. Its why she breaks up with Spike at the end of the episode - Buffy realizes she is still strong, she can be way she 'used' to be. It does not forgive Riley's mistakes, or is even about any of that? This is a very weird take. Honestly I want to know if others have this take, tell me if you do.

--- This very weird take by the way comes from the "misogyny" moments that the video constantly alludes to, which tie back into Joss Whedon's behavior, which I want to flag here. I'll admit that from what I have seen of the evidence, while Joss does come off like a huge asshole on set, I actually haven't seen much of a case for a lot more than that. Some people see him as this like uber-predator and I don't know where that is coming from. So I might be biased a bit here, lacking that heft of conviction.

But I still think this is generally correct - someone's personal behavior is an extremely imperfect reflection of their writing chops. Some of the most insightful prose of all time was writing for crass monetization; serial abusers have written, in spades, the most complex and well-realized victim protagonists. Writing is a skill, not a morality trait. Personal action impacts writing, sure, but not in ways that *align* with morality. The fact that Joss Whedon was an asshole on set does not mean the writing on Buffy reflects misogynist abuse. Xander isn't a misogynist - when he is mad at Anya for sleeping with Spike he is portrayed by the narrative as a clear asshole. Riley isn't portrayed as a perfect boyfriend, dude fucking pays vampires to bite him! This all in your head! You don't have to like prove Joss Whedon is a bad dude through textual analysis. His work can still be #girlboss feminism, there is no contradiction there.

--- This will be brief, but I feel like we are past the weird 2010's hiccup of thinking "fridging" is a problem, right? This is about Tara's death, ofc. Stories aren't real life, in stories some characters are way more important than others. Side characters exist, very often, to further the arcs of those main characters. One of them dying as part of a main character's arc is completely normal. Its weird I feel I have to explain this; I don't really, right? Tara is not killed off on a whim; she dies because Willow has a season-long arc of tipping over the edge on magic power, its a lot about her relationship with Tara, and her death pushes her over the brink. I'll admit I find Dark!Willow's execution to be a bit weak, but that's its own problem; the motive is solid. This is how stories work.

--- Additionally, I think there is a big, but a bit unnoticed, shift in what "works" in media around character deaths. When Joss Whedon killed Tara in Buffy - and more notably killed Wash in Serenity - he was doing a deliberate "no one is safe" thing. It became a meme, actually!

Meme-ing about Joss Whedon man, right there in the garbage dumb of the past alongside Harry Potter memes shitting on Twilight thinking its the better franchise; life comes at you fast. But anyway this was a "big thing" to happen - audiences were shocked by it! It had dramatic impact.

Then Game of Thrones happened and this got turned up to 11, and the general plot twist even more of a meme. But meanwhile, TV changed in the background; entire seasons were getting dumped at once on streaming, everything was becoming "high context" with actors live tweeting their own set experiences, fandoms got more involved and contextual, "water-cooler" shows everyone was talking about faded due to audience separation, all sorts of shit. Which meant that the "kill a main character" thing stopped being powerful - it was overplayed, spoilers were more common, it didn't "air" as a standalone episode everyone talked about. The reason to kill off a character to raise the stakes faded away.

Which means when people go back and say things like "oh I loved Tara why kill her", its...well for one Amber Benson wanted to leave the show. But additionally you can't see the power it had in 2002. TV was different then, it wanted different things.

--- To give something positive, while I think Spike's attempted rape of Buffy is a strong writing choice - very in character for Spike, and its fine that it is primarily about his arc and not Buffy's because its a story, that is how these things work - I do agree that Buffy's response to the event is just not explored enough. It comes up multiple times of course, even in Season 7, but it also gets swamped by plot events in Season 6 with Willow, its not given room to breathe.

This imo relates to the fact that the pacing of the event is a bit wonky - Spike & Buffy had been on the outs for many episodes at that point, there wasn't this strong inciting incident for it. If it had happened much closer to their breakup, in a more focused arc, it would have had more narrative impact and allowed time for both of them to respond to it. I get that they had a lot of plot balls to juggle at that point, but still, missed opportunity I think.

Okay I had more thoughts but I am tired, I think that covers my most interesting complaints/observations anyway.

[hello-nichya-here]

I think I just ruined Xander X Anya as a ship for myself.

Okay, so a very cursed thought just crossed my mind and I cannot force it out of my brain, so I'm just gonna inflict that misery and suffering onto all of you.

Joss Whedon, infamous creep that claims to be a feminist despite hating women in general and pregnant women in particular, has repeatedly said he based a lot of Xander's personality off of himself.

For most of the show, Xander was in a relationship with Anya, a former vengeance demon that REALLY hated men - yet stops thinking they're all evil after falling for Xander.

...Was their relationship just Whedon sucking his own dick and bragging about how he's soooooo great even the feminist that is the biggest man-hater in the world would think he is not just a great guy, but a dream boyfriend? Was that what all of this was about all along? Everytime I liked a scene of these two, was I actually just enjoying Joss Whedon's weird ego trip?

I cannot unsee this. Somebody end me.

[memecatwings]

hatered for joss whedon reignighted we need to kill that man. we need to just kill him

[invisible-pink-toast]

stages of grief

1. denial

But don't worry. Everything will be fine. How can you say that? Because sometimes when things get tough, denial is all we have.

insp.

Chloë Frayne / KC Greene "On Fire / Joss Whedon "Buffy the Vampire Slayer: The Body" / "My Girl" / Fleurie "Soldier" / Byron Eggenschwiler "A Ghost Story" / Ann M. Martin "Claudia and the Sad Goodbye" / "9-1-1: Worst Day Ever" / Thesaurus.com / Robyn Petrik "Denial" / Food52 "The Guide to Flower Shopping for Flower Haters" / reddit user: ResponsibleFly4015 / Stacey Zass / Sabrina the Teenage Witch (1999)

[partywizard]

my pointless petty hater achievement i'm most proud of is being right about joss whedon from day 1

hamilton dorks are nothing compared to people who hyped up dr horrible

[godgavemenoname]

if joss whedon has one million haters i am one of them. if joss whedon has one hater, then i am that one. if joss whedon has no haters, i am dead

[lacking-hydration]

maybe im just a hater. this writing is so 2000s joss Whedon marvel Erm that just happened core

a bitch just went "emoticon!" And did this

[cantsayidont]

Hateration holleration, Anne Parillaud edition:

LA FEMME NIKITA (1990): Vacuous and violent Luc Besson action girl trifle about a druggie punk named Nikita (Anne Parillaud) who's imprisoned for killing a cop and then coerced into becoming an elite assassin for French intelligence by a manipulative older man called Bob (Tchéky Karyo). Released back into the world under the alias Marie Clément, Nikita starts a relationship with a kindly supermarket clerk named Marco (Jean-Hugues Anglade), but every so often, she's called into action to assassinate purported enemies of the state, for reasons she never bothers to figure out. Jean Reno has a scene-stealing supporting bit as the comically murderous "cleaner" Victor. Stylish and hugely influential (even beyond the American remake and later TV series it directly spawned), NIKITA hasn't aged well, and it's hard to miss the movie's misogynist contempt for its heroine (underscored by the final scene, where Bob and Marco discuss Nikita's future with her nowhere in sight!). CONTAINS LESBIANS: Nope. VERDICT: Memorable but not very good, and it hates women the way Joss Whedon hates women.

INNOCENT BLOOD (1992): Disagreeable horror-action hybrid about a female vampire (Anne Parillaud) who decides to chow down on the local Italian mob and ends up creating a (literal) monster (Robert Loggia). Should be fun, but it's just sour and gassy, hitting wrong note after wrong note. Parillaud seems hopelessly out of place (not helped by hair and makeup seemingly styled with a lawnmower), while director John Landis sacrifices every opportunity to make the movie even momentarily scary, sexy, or exciting in favor of nudge-you-in-the-ribs smirking self-awareness, including the obligatory cameos by fellow directors (here Sam Raimi and Frank Oz) and a stupid leitmotif of minor characters watching older, better horror movies on TV. CONTAINS LESBIANS: Nix, and it's unpleasantly misogynistic to boot. VERDICT: The cinematic equivalent of a torn hangnail, and ultimately too rancid even for cheese. Just watch BLADE instead.

[housedyke]

nat | 28 | pronoun apathetic

gender liminal dyke

art history major, fashion minor

habitual fic not finisher

buffy fan, joss whedon hater

Links

instagram | dreamwidth | ko-fi

Tags: #project log #buffyposting #my face

[padmesgreene]

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