#jon snow deserves better

[pixiecactus]

there's something to be said about the fact that arya has been told time and time again that her looks and personality are not satisfactory enough to be a lady of a great house. how the willful part of herself has to be erased completely for her to be successfully introduced to westerosi society. she has an enormous difficult time trying to conform and is deemed a failure by her educator.

(fuck you, septa mordane! and also why catelyn never put two and two together over the fact that arya only failed the septa's lessons and not with the other educators when said woman talked only shit about her child; she just went alongside the septa... no wonder that your own child thinks that you won't love her if she happens to be dirty and with her hair messy and tangled enough, catelyn! she thinks that she needs to be deserving of your motherly love. it gets worse; poor arya was so desperately convinced that her mother wouldn't want her back that she accidentally pulled off sections of her own hair trying to comb her badly cut hair. that's a deeply distressed child and it breaks my heart everytime i think about it... as a reader, i know that you loved all of your children, but for fuck's sake, catelyn, you let it get this way for long enough time)

how it's completely insane that arya did never knew how different northern ladies are from their southern counterparts and how she happens to fit perfectly with the former. ned and catelyn went: "southern is the only way to go" in respect to the girls education and called it a day, really.

(my petty ass really wants to write: "ned stark and catelyn tully were really the most southern people living in the north" and "that's what being fostered in the south does to a northern mf")

but even when we have all of this messing up arya's sense of self-worth and self-esteem to a great extent. we still have some of arya's brothers being the biggest arya's supporters that had ever lived in westeros.

said brothers that when they happen to like or admire a girl, they can't help themselves to compare her to their beloved sister arya.

we saw it with jon and ygritte, and with bran and meera, and we could even make the case of rickon with his motherly figure osha if we had more info. and all of them are northern women that didn't get a southern education.

how the stark brothers (yes, jon is included in this group) really love arya for who she already is, to the point that they want to surround themselves with girls/women with a similar enough personality, and that for me is one of the biggest compliments you can give to a person.

also if this post of mine claiming that i can't give catelyn a pass due her treatment of arya, makes people say that i'm misogynist so be it, i'm over it... i was once a child in arya's position with a parental figure that favoured another child, and always made comparisons between us, that made me feel awful, and to this day whenever this person talks to me to let me know that they care about me, and they love me i can't help myself to think that they only do it because they pity me and what became of me and that's a fear and hurt that will never leave me and how this could also be the case for arya growing up since catelyn is dead and lady stoneheart is mostly an embodiment of revenge (i realize that this could imply that this parental figure is transphobic, and meanwhile i have to say that they most probably are since i grew up in a conservative family, they don't know that i've transitioned and i will never tell them either)

[allllllllli]

[rhaenin-time]

Maybe possibly controversial opinion but while Dany was definitely treated the worst in the adaptation, I don't think she was actually adapted the worst. Not in the earlier seasons at least.

I'm not saying she was adapted well even in those early seasons. Far from it. But she was adapted more accurately than Jon and Arya. Because they are honestly unrecognizable. I binged seasons 1-6 before reading the books and I honestly found them a little boring/cliched. And then I pick up the books and it's like, "What? These two are amazing!"

asfdghadghoi The line that originally turned me off: "Most girls are idiots." Arya would never.

[diana-prince43]

Finding a Jonsa blog that finally seemed neutral only to see today that she called Dany "a literary trap" for encourage the monarchy... Yeah, because these posts about the awesome Queen Sansa and King Jon don't do the same, right?...

[house-of-daenerys]

ɴᴇᴡ ᴇᴍɪʟɪᴀ ᴄʟᴀʀᴋᴇ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴛʜʀᴏɴᴇꜱ ʙᴛꜱ ɪᴍᴀɢᴇꜱ ᴠɪᴀ @streammaxnordic

[ogorodami]

how a jonsa writer looks you dead in the eye before saddling Sansa with the most pathetic small dicked version of Jon Snow imaginable

[polysucks]

omggg I would luuvvvvv if you could do an essay on the parallels between Katara and Lyanna, that would be so cool.

From what I can think of right now, they both went against societal norms. Katara went against it as there weren’t any water benders to teach her because the fire nation wanted to strip that power from them but she still taught herself, and when she met the northern tribe who were sexist with their views on water bending, she used water bending to fight instead of the traditional healing role set for woman. Lyanna did it by fighting off the squires bullying Howland with a tourney sword (quite unexpected), and becoming the mystery Knight of The Laughing Tree (supposedly but I honestly believe it’s her). Also their innate instinct to help others in need no matter what, even if it dangers them.

Anyways, tysm for answering!!

(ps don’t worry about the yapping, I love it, and I’m exactly the same haha 🤞🏽😂)

Okay I am sooooo sorry I am so late on this but I have been rotating katara and lyanna in my brain since I got this ask and im gonna be one hundo with you real fuckin quick Lyanna is Katara's auntie now sorry i don't make the rules this is canon now geroge told me himself

Quieted, Softened, Sanitized—Brown: The Erasure of Katara and Lyanna’s Accomplishments

Word count: 1521 Time to read: 9 - 15 mins CW for racism discussion, my opinions on racism, the Starks are brown die mad about it

It’s infuriating how women like Katara and Lyanna—brown women who carve their own paths, wield power with confident certainty, and refuse to be caged by expectation—are so often reduced to footnotes, whispered about in soft, mournful tones, as if their strength is something tragic rather than triumphant. Meanwhile, women like Azula and Visenya Targaryen, who share that same unrelenting fire, are exalted as legends, feared, revered, and mythologized in ways that allow them to loom larger than life. The difference? One set of women is allowed to be seen. Their power is acknowledged, even if it’s as something dangerous. But for Katara and Lyanna [and Elia, but this isn’t about her], power is only recognized when it's softened, wrapped in palatable narratives of quiet suffering, of impropriety instead of impact. Lyanna is forever the "willful girl" whispered about behind closed doors. Katara is the "stubborn girl from the South" instead of the master waterbender who faced down the most powerful men of her time and won. Their stories are filtered through loss, restraint, and buried rebellions, while their white counterparts are allowed to rage, to conquer, to take up space in history without apology. It's not just an oversight—it's a pattern. A refusal to let brown women be big the way white (or white-coded) women are already allowed to be—ya know. Despite societal hierarchy.

The Fire Nation tried to erase waterbending from the Southern Water Tribe, but Katara refused to let that part of her identity die. When she finally reached the Northern Water Tribe, she had already proven herself as a fighter—she had battled soldiers, trained Aang, and built herself into a warrior without a formal teacher. She arrived not as a student begging for guidance, but as an equal who deserved to be taught.

But Master Pakku didn’t see it that way. To him, she was just a girl, and girls were meant to heal—not fight. She could be powerful, sure, but only in a way that served others, never in a way that allowed her to claim power for herself.

This is where a lot of stories would frame Katara’s fight as a classic “girl vs. sexist establishment” moment. And while, yes, sexism is at play, Katara’s defiance goes deeper than that. She doesn’t just fight Pakku to prove that women can fight—she fights because she knows she is more than just one role. She already is a great healer. She accepts and embraces that. But she also knows she’s a great warrior. She’s smart, strategic, and terrifyingly powerful when she needs to be. She refuses to be reduced to just one identity when she knows she is so much more.

This is the real reason she fights: because the world tries to tell her that she can’t be both. That she has to pick. That she has to be either soft or strong, either a protector or a destroyer, either a girl who heals or a warrior who fights. But Katara doesn’t accept that. She takes back all of herself, not just the parts that are deemed acceptable.

And despite this incontestable power, Katara is often remembered in a way that softens her edges. Fandom discussions, media interpretations, and even in-universe characters frequently define her by her healing, her warmth, her nurturing spirit—as if her rage, her ambition, her battle prowess, and her political mind are footnotes rather than fundamental parts of who she is. Women like Katara, brown women with unshakable power, are only allowed to be celebrated if they are framed as gentle first, as if their strength is a quiet, reluctant thing rather than something they claim outright.

Where Katara gets to fight her battle in real time, Lyanna’s battle happens after her death—in the way she is remembered, and in the way her story is not hers anymore.

In life, Lyanna was fiercely and proudly Northern, unashamed of her Stark identity, a girl who rode too fast, who fought when she saw injustice, who wouldn’t be controlled. We see this through the little moments—the way she defends Howland Reed at the tourney of Harrenhal [allegedly], the way she’s spoken of as being headstrong, wild, impossible to tame. The world she lived in wanted women to be beautiful and obedient, to be desirable and soft and pretty and powdered and white. But Lyanna was none of those things.

But in death, she becomes something else.

To Robert, she is his lost love, the girl who was stolen from him, the woman who haunts him so deeply that he builds a war in her name. Something to covet and to lust for rather than remember and honor with fondness and respect. To Westeros, she is a tragic figure, a noble lady taken in her prime by a prince (or a demon. The argument is always about Rhaegar’s intentions, not about Lyanna’s choices), her story one of sorrow and longing. And worst of all, to history, she is just another part of Rhaegar’s legacy—a romanticized casualty in the tale of a great man.

But Ned knows better.

Ned remembers her not as a myth, not as a tragic beauty, but as his sister. A warrior, a woman of fierce conviction, someone who lived and fought and made her own choices. He carries the weight of her final moments, the truth of her life that no one else will ever fully understand.

"Promise me, Ned."

She isn’t just asking him to protect Jon—she’s asking him to protect the truth of who she was. Protect the pride of the North. She doesn’t want Jon to be defined by his birth, by the expectations placed on him, by the legacy of men who only care about his bloodline. She wants Jon to be his own person. She wants for him what she never got—for his story to be his.

And yet, Lyanna, like Katara, is remembered through a softened, sanitized lens. She is reduced to whispers, to tragic beauty, to quiet improprieties. She was a woman who fought, but history has rewritten her into someone who was stolen. Her strength is remembered in hushed tones, as if it is something delicate instead of something to be respected.

Meanwhile, her white (or white-coded) counterparts—women like Visenya Targaryen—are allowed to be legendary. Visenya was just as wild, just as politically shrewd, just as fiercely independent as Lyanna, and she is remembered as a conqueror, a queen, a wielder of Dark Sister. She is allowed to be grand, mythical, powerful in a way that does not diminish her. Similarly, Azula, a firebending prodigy who shares Katara’s intensity, is feared, studied, and dissected with fascination. She is allowed to be bold, brilliant, and deeply, unapologetically seen.

This is the pattern: brown women like Katara and Lyanna are remembered only in ways that make their power comfortable to those who look back on them. They are rarely allowed to be truly big the way white women are given excuses to be. Their strength is either erased or reframed into something tragic, something wistful, something mournful rather than something irrefutable.

What makes Lyanna and Katara so powerful is that they don’t fight to prove themselves to other people. They don’t break barriers just for the sake of breaking them. They fight because they already know who they are, and they refuse to be anything less than their full selves.

Katara never questions whether she’s strong enough. She knows she is.

Lyanna never questions whether she has the right to make her own choices. She knows she does.

And in the end, both of them are remembered for what they refused to compromise. Katara walks away from her fight with Pakku not just victorious, but with the freedom to be all of herself. Lyanna, even in death, refuses to be a symbol—because the truth of her story lives on in the promise Ned made, and in the son she left behind.

Both of them are proof that strength isn’t about being one thing—it’s about refusing to let the world tell you who you’re supposed to be.

And maybe that’s why history tries so hard to soften them.

Because women like Katara and Lyanna don’t just challenge the expectations placed on them—they shatter them. And the world has never quite figured out what to do with that.

[stumbling-towards-the-light]

This is going to get really contentious really quickly, but I would've loved it if Jon was referenced in Daemon's final vision, alongside Daenerys.

Both are Daemon's and Rhaenyra's direct descendants after all and there are hints within ASOIAF that both could be Azor Ahai (Dany with her everything and Jon specifically with Melisandre's visions and the whole 'defenders of the realms of men' the Watch has going on).

Like the entire book series is the buildup and the culmination of Dany's and Jon's meeting and/or relationship for a very good reason. One is Ice and the other is Fire. The whole point of the book is the Song they can make together.

[spearsndragons]

Visenya’s support system

— a gold thread of pride and guilt

BONUS:

[petittdove]

i woke up today thinking about him 💭

edit by isleofbaratheon.

[is-lu-for-everyone]

Rewatching Got and, um, excuse me Jon Snow, sir, WHY are you offering Longclaw to Jorah, exiled and disgraced Jorah Mormont, when you had Lyanna Mormont RIGHT THERE, the one who gave you the men, the one who called you her KING, the one whose mother and sisters fought and died for Robb, the one who– but noooo, not even a word. Nono, you MUST offer the sword to the Family Disgrace Jorah Mormont . What was that.

[allllllllli]

"There's an old voice in my head

That's holding me back"

"Well, tell her that I miss our little talks"

"Soon it will be over and buried with our past"

"We used to play outside when we were young

And full of life and full of love"

Song: little talks - of monsters and men

(I don't know if I achieved what I wanted here, but I hope I captured the vision.)

[destroyerofnations92]

book!Tyrion and book!Daenerys are my favourite characters. I have been looking forward to them meeting since the first time I picked up A Game of Thrones, so when the promo pictures of them meeting in season five came out I was beyond excited.

For a while that continued, even though for whatever reason they started dumbing down Tyrion. Their chemistry was remarkable and it felt like their story could be the backbone of the remainder of the show.

It sorta was but not in a good way.

Tyrion was pushed to the background in favour of the least interesting Northerner alive, Jon Snow, and eventually Rhaegar's bastard started cannibalizing Daenerys too.

The worst thing is that while I did not love book!Jon, I did quite like him. However, his show!version has made me hope Dany and Jon never meet, or that he stays dead.

I know there is a chance that George never finishes the book series because the man is getting up there in years, but I hope to at least read of Tyrion and Dany meeting.

The show broke me, and it seems like House of the Dragon is on its way to doing the same. Great characters are butchered in favour of villains and book!canon is pushed aside.

It's still in the early stages but anyone interested in a Tyion-centric post-season eight/seven-year time jump story, come have a look at my Patreon: patreon.com/DestroyerofNations. The story is called amidst salt and smoke, and it is Tyrion coming to terms with his faults and his hand in Daenerys' death. There are going to be many twists and turns along the way, and there are some surprising and not-so-surprising villains. I am going to post the first chapter on AO3 next week as well.

[house-of-daenerys]

HAHA YES!!! ITS CONFIRMED!!! I KNEW IT! 😂👏😜

Ever Since the show was in development, l've always said what story could they possibly have to tell without bringing up Dany and just re-opening old wounds for us fans!

And let's be honest Jon is the least interesting character, D&D did practically nothing with him, more so now that he's stuck beyond the wall...

"We all couldn't find the right story to tell that we were all excited about enough. There may be a time in the future where we return to it, but at the moment ... It's firmly on the shelf" - Kit Harington

[whitedragonwolf4961]

Hmm…

I love this picture! And look what it says! “Jon Snow still knows nothing and Daenerys deserves better!!!” Now we know Emilia definitely knows that. But Kit smiling… hmm… does he agree with all of us on that too? I wonder…

[crimsoncold]

Hello fellow Jonsa fans + Jon Snow Fans in general...

I'm pretty confident in saying that the treatment/characterization in later seasons (as well as the overall show ending) for the Starks- specifically for Jon Snow- was in a number of ways a massive disappointment for many fans.

And over the years I've waffled back and forth between hope and pessimism on how accurate the show ending of several characters is for predicting what will/would happen to them in the books ...

So to organize my thoughts (and try to come to some conclusion) I've tried my best to formulate possible attitudes, reasonings, justifications, and supporting evidence for why fans might be anything from strongly opposed to the idea that the endings will be the same, to willing to believe the two endings may generally resemble one another, or for thinking/being resigned to the idea that they will essentially be the same in all the core aspects...

So I am curious, after having a couple years to ruminate on how the show handled its characters ...

What are your thoughts on Jon Snow's show character arc and ending, specifically on how it would (or will) compare to his book arc and ending?

... and which of the following opinions/attitudes on the subject do you identity with or agree with the most?

(Warning this post is kinda rambling and long - and im sure other people have phrased their thoughts on this issue much more eloquently/with more supporting evidence/or at least while being less admittedly biased- I really tried my best to be open minded and be non-critical for all the options but I think I failed for the last one lol - but its kinda cluttering up my head and I wanted to put it into words to clear things out a bit

...but I'm also curious about how others feel about this issue so I'll post this write up as is and then I will post a more succint follow up in the form of a poll to see how fans in general are leaning on this issue in a few days....)

Starting out strong with...

ATTITUDE #1: they will NOT be the same because the show choices and ending don't actually fucking make any sense?

His name being ... aegon?...because he is "the prince that was promised"?....ummmm Rheagar already had a child that was his "prince aegon"...who (other than the showrunners) would think it a good choice to name the next son the same thing...also why would Lyanna who has been kept from her family and left to bleed out alone after childbirth give a shit about "Targaryen" prophecy nonsense and choose this name? Her father and eldest brother have been murdered, she presumably wasn't allowed to contact or leave to go back to her family, and she was left by the prince to endure pregnancy and childbirth with improper care, and as a result she is now bleeding to death without knowing what will become of her son... but sure if she names her son something it would be Aegon and not after her deceased father or brother or just literally any other a name that is not from house Targaryen (you know the people responsible for her family's brutal deaths and her own likely impending death).

And if despite book! Lyanna's apparent wisdom shown in her appraisal of Robert's flaws we are supposed to accept uncritically the show idea that she went willingly (or at least that she stayed willingly) with a prince who was being unfaithful to his wife and had abandoned his children in kingslanding and who ran and left his mad King father behind in power who would then go on to gruesomely murder her family... even if we ignore this and the fact that she should rightfully hate Rheagar at this point (or at least see this prophecy nonsense as Rheagar's own brand of madness) why would she choose this name if she needs her son to be protected (i.e. be hidden by his uncle from everyone who would like to wipe out all remaining Targaryens)?

Furthermore....

(Tyrion = known kin slayer/presumed king slayer/a fucking lannister the house who had been complicit in invading and slaughtering nobles and peasants alike in the north and riverlands in support of their rule through a false king/accomplice to a Targaryen lead invasion and the mass slaughter of KL= righteous dude and new Hand to the King?)

(Jaime Lannister= sworn member of the kingsguard/infamously breaks his vows and murders the mad king/his reputation is permanently ruined/for years never tells anyone his motive for killing the king was to prevent him from wiping out the entirety of kingslanding with wildfire/yet still gets to maintain his position and isn't executed or sent to the wall or even stripped of his position because his dad is scary, his family is powerful, and now they have direct ties to the new King?)

(Jon Snow= is a stark both through his mother and the man who raised him as a father/ from a house that is respected even loved in the north- the family that is the heart of the story/he works to make peace with former enemies and band people together against a massive threat beyond the wall that could kill everyone in westeros/kills a known violent and a mass murdering invader who had control over a creature that is the narrative equivalent of a weapon of mass destruction/consequently a queen slayer and kin slayer/is related to both the new King of Westeros and the QITN who were raised with him and presumably love him and want to protect him = is punished for his actions through exile to the Night's watch?

... which doesnt even have a purpose anymore now that wall is destroyed, the dead have been destroyed, and the north has since allied with their former enemies who they were previously using the wall and the Night's Watch to defend against

... and this is upheld in the north and by his family despite the fact that the stark kids held the fervent desire/wish to return to their home but more importantly to be reunited with their remaining family in any way possible... despite the fact that the north is independent and should give absolutely no fucks what the rulings and demands are from armies and lords who previously were you know fucking invading them, fighting against them, or at least were in no way the north's supportive allies?)

This does not track at all... terrible and inconsistent writing/world building..."one million years dungeon" to whoever thought this would be well recieved or an impressive ending... book end and arc for Jon will not be like this at all.

ATTITUDE #2: Not the same (*beyond perhaps a few superficial aspects*) because narratively and thematically it doesn't make for an effective or engrossing story?

Jon's identity, his desire to know who his mother was, his deep underlying wish to live up to the expectations of his father and be the type of son that through his actions reflects well on his father rather than one who brings shame simply through his birth, the curiosity secrets and rumours surrounding his mother and birth that that are shown to reach far beyond the borders and nobles of the north, and the truth around his biological mother and father.... All of these things should have more of an impact emotionally for the character as well as more consequences and impact plot-wise or politically speaking than it ever did in the show!!!

e.g. Jon's identity issues have generally centered around the desire to know about his mother and a desire to be a son that makes his father proud/reflects well on Ned Stark's memory despite his bastard status... an "oooh look at his Trueborn Targaryen Prince name" moment is not a satisfying closure to this question/conflict... yes knowing the identity of his mother is important to him... but so will the fact that Ned (his uncle/foster father) chose to raise him as his own to protect him... and chose to name him Jon after the man who fostered Ned, loved Ned like a son, and who revolted against a king when he called for Jon to execute his two wards Ned and Robert... emotionally speaking it's Jon's stark half (and the fact that Ned isnt his bio father) that should matter to him the most to jon... far more than the "Secret Targaryen prince" thing... there is little catharsis available for Jon in his Targaryen ancetry-with the exception perhaps of what it might mean for his future/his dreams of marriage and children (more on this later)...

Jon's internal conflict should matter (his dreams of being a father/husband and recreating the family he has lost, his desire for lordship over winterfell, his devotion and love of his trueborn siblings, his shame around his birth and the ambitious dreams that he rejects but still holds, his struggle against all these in taking the black/rejecting the offer of lordship of winterfell/and supporting his "sister's" claim, the potential issues caused by the conflict between Jon's determination to protect the rights of his trueborn "siblings", Robb's will that goes against this wish, and the question of who the Notheners will wish to crown when Jon reunites with Sansa or perhaps one of his surviving "brothers", these things need to be adressed with nuance rather than written off as if they never existed like they did in the show

The Stark kids deserve better, they are essentially the heart of the story, they are constantly thinking about/ longing for their dead kin as well as their lost but surviving siblings, some (i.e. Jon and Sansa) are both literally dreaming about recreating their lost family through their own potential marriages...so all of their reunions need to be important emotionally for the characters and should be more meaningful in terms of narrative... anything rather than the nonsensical, unnecessary, and poorly justified or resolved conflict and mistrust the show gave us between the stark kids....anything other than all the Starks (willingly) being separated once again at the end (which writers thought this made for a powerful or emotional end for the starks...and what on earth is wrong with you?)

The many parallels, shared dreams, and increasingly apparent foreshadowing that point towards Jonsa/a Jon and Sansa marriage in the books (too numerous for me to list here) will need to pay off - (Arguably even the show hinted towards a Jonsa romance with the tension, intimacy, longing stares, jealousy and love triangle-esque framing in later seasons. All of this takes more than just actor chemistry... as in writing directing setting framing lighting etc.) and GRRM won't chicken out over some foster sibling/cousin incest like (presumably) the showrunners did.

The book (and show even) established clearly that people who choose to burn other people alive during battle/as a method of execution/or for human sacrifice purposes are being set up as distinct flavour of villain in the story (Stannis and Melisandre, Tyrion and Cersei, Aerys and Daenerys)... Jon himself is shown to unequivocally be against using this sort of inhumane execution on ones enemies in both the book and the show (i.e. recall his plotline with Mance Rayder/Mance Rayder's son) ... why on earth would he ever trust or be emotionally or willingly romantically involved with someone who does this at a large scale (and who comes from a family that previously murdered his own kin in this horrific manner)... this makes no sense for his character or his arc.

While overall the story certainly makes for a remarkably dark/gritty fantasy tale...to end the entire series by just once again hammering home the idea that nothing we do matters, people dont get what they deserve, there are no happy endings in reality, etc. would leave things on a sour note and not be a particularly meaningful or thematically or emotionally satisfying end ...hell A dream of spring (Formerly A Time For Wolves !!!??!!!) implies a hopeful (though given the series perhaps a bittersweet) end that the show ending (particularly the Stark ending) absolutely did not deliver on

So ultimately to be a satisfying story the character arc/book ending for Jon Snow must, by default, be significantly different than that of the show.

ATTITUDE #3: the endings will not be very similar simply because the show already changed too much storywise/characterwise for it to match what happens/will happen in the books

(Almost too many examples to list for this so I'll only mention a couple of the more grevious ones)

They've written off too many hugely impactful characters (remember lady stoneheart?!!?!!!)

and changed plotlines in too many profound ways (e.g. remember when Dorne and House Martell characters mattered, made sense, were consistent? How Jeyne Poole's narrative was simply given to Sansa?? WTF!!!!! Absolutely the most grevious thing the Showrunners inflicted on her that had NO basis on her material from the novel)

or in general just handled plotlines just too poorly (The long night/invading dead gets a lot of build up- multiple books and seasons- and should be handled more effectively than they did in the show- where it was written off resolved rather quickly to get back to the dragons i mean political intrigue...There is no easily defeated big bad in the books... show!Night King does not have a counterpart or exist in the books!)

and they reduced, white washed, or generally dumbed down characters too much (look what they did to Varys and Tyrion... but also look at Jon!!!!!!

Jon Snow of the books is young but smart, he is sneakier and sassier, and under the right circumstances less beholden to "honour" and much more ruthless than Ned or his own show counterpart (ALSO he is notably against people who execute their enemies via burning alive -just putting that out there again)... so we shouldn't expect Book!Jon to have the exact same behavior/choices of show!jon.

... hell even show jon of early seasons was vastly different- more interesting and thought out and still you know treated as a main character- rather than a kowtowing 1 dimensional man they tried turning him into in order to prop up the Dragon Daenerys plotline)

.... and showrunners just made too many narratively unsupported choices (Bron as Lord Paramount of the Reach. Why? Are ALL the Tyrells dead? Are all other noble houses in the reach dead? What is even happening here?)

Based on all we know from comparing the completed show to the published books in an albeit unfinished series... and how obviously they have already been proven to differ significantly... as fans we shouldn't expect or resign ourselves to the idea that show ending = novel ending... because from what we know for a fact happens in the books has already shown to be massively changed in the tv series.

ATTITUDE #4 & #5:

The books will be similar to some (but not all) aspects of show Jon's later seasons plotlines/his overall ending...

OR

the book will be similar to most aspects of later seasons of the tv seasons -in terms of Jon's arc and his overall ending...

BUT!!!!! crucially these things will be handled better or at least with far more nuance than the show

The showrunners had a general outline so one has to accept that at least some (or even all) of the major aspects of plot and character arcs will be consistent .... they will just be better built up to and justified through better writing and the sheer aspect of getting to read and understand a character's thought process rather than trying to decipher meaning through the scowls/stares/and increasingly poorly written dialog of later GOT seasons.

Specifically, for Jon's later seasons narratives... well perhaps he would be willing to work with people who are violent, unhinged, or dangerous in order to fight against the white walkers, he absolutely is willing to make allies with long standing enemies of the north in the interest of saving the north/all of westeros from the dead (i.e. the free folk), he definitely would be willing to lie to them about his loyalty and respond to their romantic or sexual advances if they pushed him... simply in order to stay alive and to fulfill whatever his mission is amongst his people's enemies (refer to his past interactions with Ygritte and the free folk), he is definitely ultimately willing to "betray" said "allies" and "lover" when their intentions and actions violate his own moral principles or are a threat to his people.

He would definitely sacrifice his own honour (through breaking vows, kinslaying, or queen-slaying) if it meant protecting his family and you know protecting the entire population of westeros from an invader pushed over the edge... who has just committed mass murder of innocent civilians (just look what he is willing to do/what vows he is willing to forsake for the saftey of his sisters/cousins in both book and tv show)...

So some of the show canon/plot/and choices would hold up in the books... so long as they are done with better motives/and while being able to look into Jon's thought process (political!Jon theorists rise! this is the only way this plotline makes sense without assassinating his character).

As for the the Stark/Jon Snow ending (Bran ruling the south, an independent North ruled by Sansa, Jon exiled beyond to wall, and Arya leaving westeros and her family behind)... well I can find satisfaction with and confidently stand by the idea of some of the general outcomes holding true (i.e. an independent north, Sansa reclaiming the north and her identity as a Stark, and that of Bran as king).

... Arya's and Jon's endings are perhaps harder to support ...so maybe they will be different in the books?

Having the freedom to explore and go on adventures seems a long held dream of Arya's, and after the very traumatic and dangerous way this dream of her's came true perhaps her once again experiencing freedom from the expectations put on noble born girls and feeling actual inspiration to travel and discover new places (rather than it being based in necessity) will be a satisfying end... so long as it's not a permanent separation from her home and siblings.

As for Jon's exile... well it's perhaps the hardest to support? but it could potentially stand in the books as well- it could fit a more bittersweet tone that could suit the end of the series that was often quite dark...

Also there are potentially some supporting narrative paralells for Jon say marrying or having a child with Sansa before they are ultimately separated (e.g. Bael the bard, King-Beyond-the-Wall having a child with Lord Brandon Stark's only heir and daughter; or perhaps a reversed version of the historical Jonnel and Sansa Stark marriage... in this case a male relative marrying a female heir to protect her claim rather than to steal it... and this time its the wife who remains and keep rulership of winterfell after "losing" their spouse, instead of the reverse happening)... so this could unfold in a manner that simultaneously fulfills the heavy jonsa marriage + children foreshadowing while still in a way corresponding to the general jon snow ending of the show of exile/leaving with the free folk...

On the other hand if Jon and Arya's endings are the same in the book format perhaps these less satisfying fates could still serve to at least provide interesting narrative parallels to the previous stark generation

(Brandon & Lyanna-Robb & Rickon... beloved siblings who died tragically and live on through the love and terrible grief of their siblings,

Ned - Sansa... inheriting what would have gone to their older brother... but are left alone to carry the burden of ruling winterfell/the north and the only surving stark who will marry and have children to carry on the family line

Ned - Sansa & Bran... who survived a war that killed many family members, going on to inherit rulership (in some form) that would otherwise never have been theirs, and perhaps the most lonely aspect they are ultimately separated from their family by duty, vows, or the choices from their surviving sibling(s)....

Benjen- Arya & Jon, surviving non heir/non ruling starks? who ultimately - perhaps through some combination of grief over their losses, desire to find their own purpose beyond what is offered to them as a non heir member of a noble house, or due to vows they have sworn in the past- leave their surviving family and home behind to make their way in life somewhere else, returning to winterfell/their ruling siblings and surviving family only rarely (if at all), thus making for a slightly more bitter than sweet end for the starks who survived the would be annihilation of their house...

So for these reasons I believe some of these (or even all of these) perhaps controversial and unsatisfying show choices, plot points, and endings around the Starks or Jon Snow could also occur in the books... they will just be presented better.... more in character, with more thought out build up and justification, with more emotional nuance, and in a manner that does address or correspond with the foreshadowing in the books.

ATTITUDE #6: I have come to terms that it makes sense that book ending and show ending will essentially be the same for... various reasons?

...ummm because it just makes sense to me? i don't find it an unlikely or unsatisfying end so I'm fine with it and feel certain it will be the same in the books?

Or because the show ending was admittedly a trainwreck but since I am pessimistic I dont expect a happy or even simply a narratively or thematically satisfying ending to the book series at this point, so yes they will be the same?

....because I think that the showrunners despite how crappy they handled the plot/characters in the later seasons (or occasionally through out the entire series) have to be in the know about major plotpoints and overall series ending so fans must just accept that show ending (for the most part) = book ending?

... breaking the format here but im not sure why else Jon or Jonsa fans would feel this way?...

but I am genuinely curious though so i guess please feel free to share any compelling foreshadowing/hints/justifications in the novel series you've found that either

a. supports showrunners choices regarding both some of the questionable show!Jon Snow's actions...

Choosing to go to dragon stone himself to negotiate with an invader rather than sending a representative, bending the knee without better negotiation, clearer threats against his family, or without even listening to the advice of his northern advisors or family,

Willfully ignoring potential allies available to him (e.g. the vale) Instead of you know finding ways to negotiate and make use of them when he needs to or it is necessary for his survival and then choosing later on how to handle the people who are not strictly speaking trustworthy or are ultimately still an enemy (you know like he did in the past?)

Letting himself be crowned KITN without any meaningful internal struggle or backlash and without requiring much persuasion from his family or advisors...despite this occuring in the presence of one of his trueborn "siblings" - you know Sansa (anyone else remember Jon saying that winterfell belongs to her when he rejects Stannis' offer of ruling the winterfell? That feels like its significant)...and despite the fact that he loves and remained loyal to his trueborn "siblings" and had previously defended his "sister"'s claim to winterfell and the north at the expense of his own opportunity to gain rule over winterfell.

Lending support/men to a Targaryen invader with a checkered past regarding her ... -having kept slaves and/or profiting off of slavery -utlizing "former" child soldier/slaves for her army or servants

(Recall slavery being a big no-no in westeros and particularly the north? Like execution or exile levels of bad?)

-her incredibly controversial and destructive past weilding of her weapons of mass destruction dragons and her questionable ability to control her child eating beasts

Or

b. Supports Jon Snow's ultimate fate (of a sort of tragic hero, banished by his cousin/foster brother for doing what was right and necessary ... just because it went against the restrictive and high standards regarding the proper and honourable treatment of royalty and ones kin ....and because letting him free would upset the handful of allies that said late (and im sure so highly venerated) mass murdering invader/would be dictator had by the end of the story,

And Him not being given refuge in the independent north, by the people who supported/elected him king, or by the express invitation the cousin/foster sister who loves him and has both authority equivalent to that of her brother king while also not being beholden to said king's rulings... and instead being essentially in exile from both the southern kingdoms of westeros and from an independent north and thus the entirety of his surviving family.

Yes I'm totally against show Jon Snow's ending and much of his characterization/plotline in later seasons...and generally find it difficult to swallow/believe the idea that book!Jon's arc/end would be the exact same as that of the show!jon

...but i dont actually intend to just be judgemental of/argue with/try to disprove Stark/Jon fans who believe that what happens with book!Jon will be the same as what happend to show!jon.... I may personally find it hard to accept (both emotionally but also based on the ample available evidence of the significant changes the show had already made from the available published source material)

....but I am genuinely curious about how people feel about this idea if they do truly believe things will be the same for book! jon as it was for show!jon (Satisfaction? Happiness? Anger? Disappointment? Resignation? Acceptance? Indifference?)

.... and also about what evidence/foreshadowing they have found in the books that has persuaded them (and is maybe not discussed seriously enough by fandom) and could have rightfully been included in my reasonings for why people believe that the book ending and character arc for Jon Snow will/would be the same of that of the show.

So my closing thoughts...

Have i missed any notable reasons or evidence that you think would sway someone to one attitude/opinion or another?

... have you, like me, also occasionally been on the fence about how closely what happens in the books will resemble what happened in the show?

... has anything in this post (or another fandom post) changed your mind? Or served to further solidify your position/opinion on this topic?

...do you feel more or less certain about your own stance on the comparison between show and book Jon Snow's overall arc/ending?

... is anyone feeling less resigned/pessimistic about what will happen regarding Jon/Jonsa in the books now? (Because that was sort of my goal here in this thought exercise... thinking through arguments that either support or go against the idea that Jon- and Jonsa- will have a happier or more fulfilling arc and ending in the books than they did in the show... and hopefully finding and summarizing enough evidence to persuade myself- and other fans- that the book outcome will be a more positive one than the show, for characters and fans alike!)

- Crimson Cold