#jon snow acok vi

[queen-of-andor]

Parenthood + ACOK, JON VI

While I was re reading this chapter I noticed that there are a lot of mentions of mothers, fathers, parents and parentage. So, I decided to make a post and analyse those passages and what they tell us about Jon and his own questionable parentage (questionable within the story, I always treat R+L=J as canon).

The wind cut like a knife up here, and shrilled in the night like a mother mourning her slain children.

That's a very devastating imagery. When I read about a mourning mother in asoiaf my mind always return to Catelyn (the first mourning mother we encounter in the text). On the previous chapter, Theon decided to burn the miller boys and present them as the youngest Starks. Which means that sometime soon after, Catelyn Stark will mourn her - as far as she knows- slain children.

"The mountain is your mother" Stonesnake had told him during an easier climb a few days ago. "Cling to her, press your face up against her teats, and she won't drop you". Jon had made a joke of it, saying how he'd always wondered who his mother was, but never thought he would find her in the Frostfangs.

Jon used to be so sensitive on the topic of his mother. AGOT Jon would never make a joke on this subject. He has come a long way, to be able to casually joke about it.

"Were they your kin?" he asked her quietly. "The two we killed?"

"No more than you are".

"Me?" he frowned. "What do you mean?"

"You said you were the Bastard O Winterfell".

"I am".

"Who was your mother?"

"Some woman. Most of them are". Someone had said that to him once. He didn't remember who.

It was Tyrion the person who told him so, on Jon's very first chapter. He also told him to wear like an armor who he is ( aka a bastard) so the world can't harm him. At first, Jon couldn't always follow his friend's advice but after his personal growth and development we see him finally following that advice on ACOK.

The most important information we get on this chapter is the retelling of Bael the Bard. That man was once King-Beyond-The-Wall and he travelled to Winterfell where he pretended to be a bard. After performing for the Lord of Winterfell, the Lord asked him what he wanted as a reward. The bard asked for the rarest flower and next day the Lord's daughter was gone and in her place was left a single blue flower.

This story has several parallels within the asoiaf universe and all are linked to Jon (after all, we learn this tale on his own pov). The most obvious one is that of Jon's parents: Rhaegar Targaryen "stole" Lyanna Stark. And the blue flower they left behind is Jon himself. It's not the only time Jon will be linked to a blue flower as he's probably the blue flower on the Wall on Daenerys' vision in the House of The Undying.

However, Bael the Bard is also very similar to Mance Rayder. Both are Kings -beyond-The-Wall and both went in an undercover mission to Winterfell. Mance was acting under Jon Snow's orders. However, he didn't stole the Lord's daughter but Lord Ramsay's wife and captive instead (Jeyne Poole and Theon Greyjoy).

Finally, the chapter closes with Jon hesitating to kill Ygritte and eventually deciding not to do it. Before he makes up his mind, he tries to draw strength from being Ned Stark's son. The way the author decided to word it, says a lot:

He was his father's son. Wasn't he? Wasn't he?

[branwinged]

i say this as a catelyn enjoyer, catelyn's hatred of jon is not particularly rational in the sense that it doesn't hinge on jon's own personal character. like some of it is borne out of wider prejudice regarding bastards (socially stigmatised as treacherous and grasping of their trueborn siblings' rights) of course, but the thing that hurts her most is what jon's presence in the household symbolically represents. and it's not the infidelity, it's the perpetual reminder of the disenfranchised position of women in their society and how little agency she truly has in her marriage and in the wider social sphere. the thing about catelyn's character is that she might be the conforming lady archetype, but she's also written to be very much aware of how disadvantaged women are in westeros.

"I might have been able to trade the Kingslayer for Father, but . . ." ". . . but not for the girls?" Her voice was icy quiet. "Girls are not important enough, are they?" Catelyn I, ACOK Is this my punishment for opposing him about Jon Snow? Or for being a woman, and worse, a mother? Catelyn V, ASOS “Father,” she said, “Father, I know what you did.” She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. “You made him take her,” she whispered. “Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully.” Catelyn I, ASOS Brienne looked at her with those blue and beautiful eyes. “As ladies die in childbed. No one sings songs about them.” “Children are a battle of a different sort.” Catelyn started across the yard. “A battle without banners or warhorns, but no less fierce. Catelyn VI, ACOK

^ these are not the words of someone who's content with her lot in life or has made perfect peace with the rules of westeros's feudal patriarchy. brienne and catelyn are both acknowledging the thankless role women are made to play. "no longer an innocent bride" / "wise in the ways of the world" has a certain misery to it, considering the topic at hand is hoster's abominable treatment of lysa for transgressing social norms. even a sentiment such as - "Pity filled Catelyn's heart. Is there any creature on earth as unfortunate as an ugly woman?", is not coming from a place of scorn or thoughtlessness, but from knowing too well how cruelly their world treats women, how brienne's appearance would affect her marriage prospects.

“Our duty.” Catelyn’s face was drawn as she started across the yard. I have always done my duty, she thought. [...] I gave Brandon my favor to wear, and never comforted Petyr once after he was wounded, nor bid him farewell when Father sent him off. And when Brandon was murdered and Father told me I must wed his brother, I did so gladly, though I never saw Ned’s face until our wedding day. I gave my maidenhood to this solemn stranger and sent him off to his war and his king and the woman who bore him his bastard, because I always did my duty. Catelyn VI, ACOK

there's such clear resignation here, this is not how you talk if you're proud to have done your duty, if you feel you were actually rewarded for having done it. and duty here means meeting the unforgiving expectations of westeros's feudal patriarchy. if sansa's chapters are about growing out of that conditioning by realising that there is no reward to be found here, then catelyn's chapters are about showing the personal cost of having lived your entire life internalising those ideals. her house words being 'family, duty, honor' is a very deliberate character choice.

so it's not just that ned cheated on her, but that he unanimously made the decision to install jon at their home and catelyn's feelings were allowed no say in the matter, that it happened even before she was able to step foot in winterfell with robb is another blow. she had just been exchanged as goods from one (dead) brother to another and she was supposed to be okay with all this, like the most natural thing in the world because her house words were drilled into her since childhood. but we know she wasn't. she stamped down that resentment out of duty, because he's her lord husband and she was to obey him, but that pain and the alienation for having done her duty was going somewhere. openly resenting her husband or her father is not a socially allowed option, so all that resentment gets unfairly taken out on jon, someone she has authority over. and i think identifying the major cause of that hatred as her frustrations with westoros's patriarchal ideals is important because that means knowing the truth of jon's parentage wouldn't have changed anything. that ned kept such a thing from her and again, unanimously made the decision to commit treason without consulting catelyn, is once again simply telling her that she has no control in this marriage, that her judgement is both unasked for and not valued.

[jon-sedai]

Just completely obsessed with Sansa as the quintessential Arthurian damsel and Jon as her valiant knight. Sansa says true heroes don’t harm magic beasts….

In the songs, the knights never killed magical beasts, they just went up to them and touched them and did them no harm […] - Sansa III, AGoT

And Jon saved the direwolves; even sacrificing himself in the process:

“It be a mercy to kill them,” Hullen said. Bran looked to his lord father for rescue, but got only a frown, a furrowed brow. “Hullen speaks truly, son. Better a swift death than a hard one from cold and starvation.” “No!” He could feel tears welling in his eyes, and he looked away. He did not want to cry in front of his father. […]. “Lord Stark,” Jon said. It was strange to hear him call Father that, so formal. Bran looked at him with desperate hope. “There are five pups,” he told Father. “Three male, two female.” - Bran I, AGoT

Sansa thinks that true heroes dispatch of evil knights:

Frog-faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. - Sansa VI, AGoT

And well….

“I will not hang him,” said Jon. “Bring him here.” “Oh, Seven save us,” he heard Bowen Marsh cry out. The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter. Until Jon said, “Edd, fetch me a block,” and unsheathed Longclaw. - Jon II, ADWD

And Sansa looks for the truest of heroes to rescue the damsel:

She shouted for Ser Dontos, for her brothers, for her dead father and her dead wolf, for gallant Ser Loras who had given her a red rose once, but none of them came. She called for the heroes from the songs, for Florian and Ser Ryam Redwyne and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, but no one heard. - Sansa IV, ACoK

And Jon is not just one, but TWO:

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. “I’m Prince Aemon the Dragonknight,” Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, “Well, I’m Florian the Fool.” Or Robb would say, “I’m the Young Dragon,” and Jon would reply, “I’m Ser Ryam Redwyne.” - Jon XII, ASoS

It’s all so perfect

[rewildling]

Reading the Blackwater Scene as a Symbolic Wedding

Because that’s what it is.

Il bacio by Francesco Hayez

Let’s start by establishing the common features of wedding ceremonies in Westeros.

Cloaks feature prominently in the wedding rituals of the Faith of the Seven, the old gods, and the Lord of Light. In all three cases, the maiden’s cloak represents the protection of the bride’s father, while the bride’s cloak represents the protection of her new husband. During the ceremony, the maiden’s cloak is exchanged for the bride’s cloak.

Though the words differ, each faith’s marriage ceremony involves an exchange of vows that are sealed with a kiss. After the ceremony and feast, the marriage is consummated with a bedding.

Sansa’s farce of a wedding to Tyrion provides a good example:

As father of the realm, Joffrey took the place of Lord Eddard Stark. ... Joff swept her maiden’s cloak away with a kingly flourish and a grin. ... And so it was that her lord husband cloaked her in the colors of House Lannister whilst standing on the back of a fool. … She smoothed her skirts and knelt in front of him, so their heads were on the same level. “With this kiss I pledge my love, and take you for my lord and husband.” “With this kiss I pledge my love,” the dwarf replied hoarsely, “and take you for my lady and wife.” He leaned forward, and their lips touched briefly. … For after the feast would come the bedding. Sansa III, ASOS

Meanwhile, marriage among the free folk involves the custom of wife stealing. This tradition prevents inbreeding and allows a man to prove to his bride that he is worthy of her:

"He'd have t' be quick and cunning and brave t' steal me. So his sons would be strong and smart as well. Why would I hate such a man as that?" Ygritte, Jon V, ASOS

"Amongst the free folk, when a man desires a woman, he steals her, and thus proves his strength, his cunning, and his courage. The suitor risks a savage beating if he is caught by the woman's kin, and worse than that if she herself finds him unworthy." Jon Snow, Jon XIII, ADWD

To sum up: wedding ceremonies in Westeros involve cloaks, vows, kisses, beddings, and, in the case of the free folk, wife stealing. Now, let’s put it all together in the context of the Blackwater, starting with Sandor’s Kingsguard cloak:

Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps. When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering. Sansa VII, ACOK

And this isn’t the first time she’s worn his cloak:

Sandor Clegane unfastened his cloak and tossed it at her. Sansa clutched it against her chest, fists bunched hard in the white wool. The coarse weave was scratchy against her skin, but no velvet had ever felt so fine. Sansa III, ACOK

The imagery of Sansa wearing Sandor’s cloak in these two scenes evokes the tradition of the groom cloaking the bride during a wedding ceremony. But there’s another aspect of the cloak’s marriage symbolism at play in the Blackwater scene: it’s an allusion to a bloody sheet.

Women sometimes bleed when they have penetrative sex for the first time. In the medieval period, white sheets stained with blood were sometimes used as proof that a marriage was consummated and that the bride was a virgin on her wedding night. This custom also appears in ASOIAF:

“Did you chance to see the marriage bed the morning after?” Cersei asked. “Did she bleed?” “No sheet was shown, Your Grace.” A pity. Still, the absence of a bloody sheet meant little, by itself. Cersei VI, AFFC

As they climbed, Damon Dance-for-Me whistled, whilst Skinner boasted that Lord Ramsay had promised him a piece of the bloody sheet as a mark of special favor. The bedchamber had been well prepared for the consummation. The Prince of Winterfell, ADWD

With this in mind, let’s examine sexual subtext in the Blackwater scene:

He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. "I'll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said." His dagger was out, poised at her throat. "Sing, little bird. Sing for your little life." … She had forgotten the other verses. When her voice trailed off, she feared he might kill her, but after a moment the Hound took the blade from her throat, never speaking. Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. “Little bird,” he said once more, his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone. Then he rose from the bed. Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps. When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. Sansa VII, ACOK

The eroticism in this scene is fairly obvious. Sandor pushes Sansa onto a bed and lies on top of her. The phrase “his dagger was out” is phallic imagery. She "sings" for him — a common euphemism for feminine sexual pleasure. The phrase “she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood” is evocative of bodily fluids. He leaves her with white fabric stained with blood. GRRM even separates the cloak from the fabric in the last line: “She found his cloak on the floor… the white wool stained by blood.” Essentially, this part of the Blackwater is an allusion to a bedding and a bloody sheet.

The custom of wife stealing is also evoked in this scene. Consider Ygritte's explanation of the act:

“A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters." Ygritte, Jon III, ASOS

“I'd sooner be stolen by a strong man than be given t' some weakling by my father." Ygritte, Jon V, ASOS

Sansa is betrothed by her father to Joffrey Baratheon — a product of incest and a monster.

We can also draw a comparison between Sandor’s threatening Sansa during the Blackwater and the element of coercion involved in wife stealing:

“I’ll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said.” His dagger was out, poised at her throat. “Sing, little bird. Sing for your little life.” Sansa VII, ACOK

“Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.” “I never meant to steal you,” he said. “I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat.” Jon III, ASOS

During the Blackwater, Sandor offers to steal Sansa away from King’s Landing and take her home:

“Where will you go?” “Away from here. Away from the fires. Go out the Iron Gate, I suppose. North somewhere, anywhere.” Sandor Clegane, Sansa VII, ACOK

This offer is integrated with Sandor’s vow to protect her, which is immediately followed by a near kiss.

“I could keep you safe,” he rasped. “They’re all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I’d kill them.” He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. Sansa VII, ACOK

So, in the Blackwater scene we have a cloak, a vow of protection followed by a near kiss (which Sansa later misremembers as having actually happened), a symbolic bedding/bloody sheet, and an attempt at wife stealing. All the features of a Westerosi wedding are present — Southron, Northern, and free folk.

The wedding imagery in Sansa and Sandor’s relationship arc is most obvious in this scene, but it appears in other places throughout ASOIAF. Think back to their very first interaction of the entire series:

Strong hands grasped her by the shoulders, and for a moment Sansa thought it was her father, but when she turned, it was the burned face of Sandor Clegane looking down at her. Sansa I, AGOT

In Westerosi wedding ceremonies, the role of the bride’s protector is transferred from her father to her new husband. The imagery in this scene is absolutely evocative of that tradition, which makes sense because it’s Sandor who takes up the role of Sansa’s protector in King’s Landing after her father’s murder. Consider the following in the context of the previous passage:

She had dreamed of her wedding a thousand times, and always she had pictured how her betrothed would stand behind her tall and strong, sweep the cloak of his protection over her shoulders. Sansa III, ASOS

The parallels are obvious — but it doesn’t end there. Sansa keeps Sandor’s Kingsguard cloak in what is essentially a hope chest, which is meant to store clothing for future married life:

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. Sansa I, ASOS

When the Tyrells are planning to wed Sansa to Willas, she imagines what it would be like to be married to him:

What did it matter about his leg? Willas would be Lord of Highgarden and she would be his lady. Sansa II, ASOS

Sansa very quickly accepts the idea of a husband with a bad leg. Who else has this disability?

On the upper slopes they saw three boys driving sheep, and higher still they passed a lichyard where a brother bigger than Brienne was struggling to dig a grave. From the way he moved, it was plain to see that he was lame. Brienne VI, AFFC

There’s also her dream about Sandor the night of Petyr and Lysa’s wedding:

It was Lothor Brune's voice, she realized. Not the Hound's, no, how could it be? Of course it had to be Lothor... That night Sansa scarcely slept at all, but tossed and turned just as she had aboard the Merling King. She dreamt of Joffrey dying, but as he clawed at his throat and the blood ran down across his fingers she saw with horror that it was her brother Robb. And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion's eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you," he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. Sansa VI, ASOS

Then there’s Sansa’s response when she’s asked if she knows what happens in a marriage bed:

She thought of Tyrion, and of the Hound and how he’d kissed her, and gave a nod. Alayne II, AFFC

It makes sense for Sansa to think of Tyrion here, but why is she thinking about Sandor in the context of a marriage bed? Unlike Sandor, Littlefinger has actually kissed her, and before Tyrion, she was betrothed to Joffrey. Of the handful of men Sansa has been romantically linked to, Sandor is the only one she actually wants to share a marriage bed with. This line is an echo of her dream the night of Petyr and Lysa’s wedding. Whenever Sansa thinks about wedding nights or marriage beds, Tyrion is the first man she thinks of, but her thoughts always quickly turn to Sandor.

The marriage motif in Sansa and Sandor’s relationship arc is most palpable during the Blackwater, but it’s subtly woven into the entire series — both before and after. It's also significant that the symbolic wedding in the Blackwater scene is incomplete. Sandor doesn’t actually kiss Sansa, and he leaves King’s Landing without her. His attempt at wife stealing fails because she isn’t ready, and he isn’t worthy of her — yet. Both characters have undergone a great deal of growth since the Blackwater, so will Sandor get a second chance?

He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak. It made no matter. That day was done, and so was Sansa. Alayne II, AFFC

By Sansa’s own (inadvertent) admission, the day of the Blackwater isn’t finished. Sandor might get another shot at wife stealing in TWOW — and maybe their symbolic union will someday become a literal one.

[aegor-bamfsteel]

In a sense, would you consider Theon Greyjoy to be Ned Stark’s son, as Jon Snow (despite his true heritage) very much is?

Well, let’s ask Theon, before his imprisonment by Ramsay:

Theon held his tongue, though not without struggle. So that is the way of it, he thought. As if ten years in Winterfell could make a Stark. Lord Eddard had raised him among his own children, but Theon had never been one of them. The whole castle, from Lady Stark to the lowliest kitchen scullion, knew he was hostage to his father's good behavior, and treated him accordingly. Even the bastard Jon Snow had been accorded more honor than he had.

Lord Eddard had tried to play the father from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who'd brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home. As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark's stern face and great dark sword. His wife was, if anything, even more distant and suspicious.

"I forget nothing." Ned Stark had killed neither of his brothers, in truth. Rodrik had been slain by Lord Jason Mallister at Seagard, Maron crushed in the collapse of the old south tower . . . but Stark would have done for them just as quick had the tide of battle chanced to sweep them together.  —Theon I, ACOK

Theon thought of seeking out the bodies of the two men he'd slain himself to see if they had any jewelry worth the taking, but the notion left a bitter taste in his mouth. He could imagine what Eddard Stark would have said. Yet that thought made him angry too. Stark is dead and rotting, and naught to me, he reminded himself. Ugly as it was, that smile brought back a hundred memories. Theon had seen it often as a boy, when he'd jumped a horse over a mossy wall, or flung an axe and split a target square. He'd seen it when he blocked a blow from Dagmer's sword, when he put an arrow through a seagull on the wing, when he took the tiller in hand and guided a longship safely through a snarl of foaming rocks. He gave me more smiles than my father and Eddard Stark together. —Theon III, ACOK

"This is craven," Ser Rodrik said. "To use a child so . . . this is despicable." "Oh, I know," said Theon. "It's a dish I tasted myself, or have you forgotten? I was ten when I was taken from my father's house, to make certain he would raise no more rebellions."

The noose I wore was not made of hempen rope, that's true enough, but I felt it all the same. And it chafed, Ser Rodrik. It chafed me raw." He had never quite realized that until now, but as the words came spilling out he saw the truth of them. —Theon VI, ACOK

And after his torture:

But if anyone spoke of him now, it was as Theon Turncloak, and the tales they told were of his treachery. This was never my home. I was a hostage here. Lord Stark had not treated him cruelly, but the long steel shadow of his greatsword had always been between them. He was kind to me, but never warm. He knew that one day he might need to put me to death. —The Prince of Winterfell, ADWD

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. "Please." He fell to his knees. "A sword, that's all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek." Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. "I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands." —A Ghost in Winterfell, ADWD

It’s true that his feelings toward Ned had softened by ADWD (which makes sense, given what he’s been through with Ramsay), but despite that there’s a common theme that Ned was always cold and distant, never affectionate, because everyone knew Theon was a hostage for Balon’s good behavior, and Ned would’ve had to execute him had he rebelled again. There was really no way that Ned and Theon could’ve developed the positive relationship that Ned and Jon did (despite the shadow of Jon’s mother between them, Jon looks up to Ned and wants to make him proud) given that history. He may have called him a “second father” in swearing his oath to Robb, but neither Balon nor Ned were true father figures to Theon, so he considers Cleftjaw his “uncle” (the man who gave him affection as a child). Ned considered Jon Arryn a second father, as Quentyn did Lord Yronwood, but neither had Theon’s history as a hostage against their birth family.

Now, Theon doesn’t have the same baggage with Ned’s kids as with the man himself. He saved Bran and fought alongside Robb (who in his first chapter admits to having affection for, “as for a little brother”), so it makes sense a regretful Theon would think of himself as their friend and brother. But he’d never think of Ned as his “true father” (another example of the show misunderstanding his character).

[silverflameataraxia]

Jon has compared his love interest to Arya four times now.

Jon could see fear and fire in her eyes. Blood ran down her white throat from where the point of his dirk had pricked her. One thrust and it's done, he told himself. He was so close he could smell onion on her breath. She is no older than I am. Something about her made him think of Arya, though they looked nothing at all alike. "Will you yield?" he asked, giving the dirk a half turn. And if she doesn't? Ygritte watched and said nothing. She was older than he'd thought at first, Jon realized; maybe as old as twenty, but short for her age, bandy-legged, with a round face, small hands, and a pug nose. Her shaggy mop of red hair stuck out in all directions. She looked plump as she crouched there, but most of that was layers of fur and wool and leather. Underneath all that she could be as skinny as Arya.

- Jon VI, ACoK

Ygritte trotted beside Jon as he slowed his garron to a walk. She claimed to be three years older than him, though she stood half a foot shorter; however old she might be, the girl was a tough little thing. Stonesnake had called her a "spearwife" when they'd captured her in the Skirling Pass. She wasn't wed and her weapon of choice was a short curved bow of horn and weirwood, but "spearwife" fit her all the same. She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier. It was hard to tell how plump or thin Ygritte might be, with all the furs or skins she wore.

- Jon II, ASoS

"If you kill a man, and never mean t', he's just as dead," Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever? He had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard's motherless bastard, with no more place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy. And even that he'd lost. When a man of the Night's Watch said his words, he put aside his old family and joined a new one, but Jon Snow had lost those brothers too.

- Jon III, ASoS

And people say Jonrya has no merit 🤣

[windriverdelta]

Jon Snow - King in the North?

One of the open questions of TWOW/ADOS is whether Jon Snow will ever become King in the North, as in Game of Thrones and in Robb's will. Now the KitN point in the show was extremely sloppily done - Jon didn't really accomplish anything with it, and some people suspect that the show simply gave Jon Stannis Baratheon's book function - and unlike "Stannis burns Shireen" or "Bran becomes king" it's not one of the moments-from-the book we know of, but given the show's tendency to write "moments" without a solid foundation just because they occur in the future books it's not ruled out. There are also some references by Mormont's raven and elsewhere that compare Jon to a king.

That said, I find it improbable. The first big problem is Stannis Baratheon. He's never going to abide a new King in the North, as he makes clear to Catelyn and Davos in ACOK. Jon Snow is effectively a Stannis supporter in ADWD, as we can see from e.g the way he calls him "the king" without qualifiers to Alys Karstark and tries to warn him about Arnolf Karstark. I doubt that he'd try to usurp Stannis. And crucially, Stannis has a lot of plot armour/guaranteed survival going in to TWOW/ADOS - unlike the show, Shireen has been left at the Wall and there is no way she could reach Stannis at Winterfell before his army starves to death, so we know he has to survive. And while we've seen with the Edric Storm affair in ASOS that Stannis is prepared to sacrifice a child to stop the Long Night, until the Long Night is actually underway I doubt that he'll give his only child to stop it. Lastly, Stannis being Azor Ahai is one of the lies Daenerys must slay, not the Boltons or Jon. Him dying before ADOS is an exceedingly unlikely prospect.

Second, there are a lot of political obstacles to Jon Snow becoming King in the North. While Robb's will almost certainly legitimized him, there is no evidence that a written copy of the will survived the Red Wedding and the Grand Northern Conspiracy is not a thing. All what he'd have is Maege Mormont's and Galbart Glover's word, since all other witnesses are trapped south of the Neck/in Iron Throne ally custody - and oh yeah, they are with Howland Reed who knows that Jon is not Ned's son. Also, the will assumed that Bran and Rickon were dead and Sansa in the power of the Lannisters; they aren't, and this is going to come out in TWOW between Davos' mission and Bran revealing himself in the crofters' village, complicating Northern politics as all these candidates have advantages and disadvantages over Jon. It's also unclear whether Northern independence is actually strongly supported in the North after the Red Wedding - we don't have much evidence of patriotic fervour in ACOK and ASOS, let alone in the history of the North during the Targaryen dynasty, and the current movers-and-shakers in the North mostly weren't around for the war council in Riverrun where Robb's acclamation took place. Their attitudes might be very negotiable. And as for the notion of Jon being acclaimed like in the show after defeating the Boltons - that's extremely unlikely in the books for sundry logistical and thematic reasons.

Speaking of, I think it's somewhat thematically unsound for a story where per GRRM the "true conflict is north of the Wall" and where Osha tells Bran that Robb is marching in the wrong direction, to suddenly champion the cause of Northern independence. Stannis, not Robb, is still alive at the end of ASOS. A coalition between wildlings, Starks, Team Stannis and small-o others - later joined by Daenerys and Tyrion as future dragonriders - is way more likely in my opinion.*

Vis-a-vis Jon Snow, there is also the question of how KitN fits into his character arc. He has already declined Stannis' offer of Winterfell in ASOS, making a tilt in TWOW might be repetitive. His story in TWOW is likely going to head to a resurrection, the Stark Family Reunion, the R+L=J reveal and (eta: in ADOS - see conversation with @jackoshadows) becoming a dragonrider (two of them must be Targaryens), probably also an identity crisis - KitN seems more like a detour, especially as the timeline does not leave much time for anything else. Abandoning the fight against the Others for political games in the North only to return to fighting the Others would be questionable storytelling.

Credit to @nobodysuspectsthebutterfly @poorquentyn @turtle-paced for inspiration/citations.

*Or a very dark possibility: Northern separatists try to force Jon's (or someone else's) accession by fighting with Stannis ... only to be taken in the rear by the Others when the Horn of Joramun brings the Wall down and their attempt to end in catastrophe as their armies are smashed between Others and pro-Stannis troops. The fiefs of the most pro-independence Northerners we've seen - Lyanna Mormont (OK, she's way down the Mormont succession order), Greatjon Umber and Robett Glover - are also the closest to the Wall, discounting the mountain clans, and thus closest to the "firing line". That might be a set-up to such a tragedy.

[agentrouka-blog]

Cersei is very much like Tywin. She is as dumb as he is (by that I mean, they are not actually dumb but blinded but their own faults and insecurities) the only difference between them is that he was a man so he was trained to be a good administrator and she had no training.

(post referenced)

Let's also remember that Cersei lost her mother at a young age. That's the person who would have been best suited and most responsible for educating her daughter in administrative matters, and after her death Tywin neither remarried nor likely paid that much attention to Cersei's specific education. It was enough that she was uncommonly beautiful and reasonably obedient to him.

We saw how she treated Tyrion's nursemaid. While she may have treated her Septa Saranella with more basic poiliteness, I doubt she felt the same deference that Sansa did for Mordane, especially given her resentment of the differences in her education compared to Jaime.

The queen's face was hard and angry. "Would that I could take a sword to their necks myself." Her voice was starting to slur. "When we were little, Jaime and I were so much alike that even our lord father could not tell us apart. Sometimes as a lark we would dress in each other's clothes and spend a whole day each as the other. Yet even so, when Jaime was given his first sword, there was none for me. 'What do I get?' I remember asking. We were so much alike, I could never understand why they treated us so differently. Jaime learned to fight with sword and lance and mace, while I was taught to smile and sing and please. (ACOK, Sansa VI)

Sansa seems to have been taught alongside the boys at least for part of her education, given she knows she is better at reading and writing than any of her brothers. No such recollection for Cersei. And note the emphasis on fighting for Jaime. Doubtlessly, he was taught by very experienced and competent teachers in everything pertaining to matters of warfare and knighthood. But he's not exactly a bright light when it comes to history, politics or the art of administration either. (Unless it's his special interest The Kingsguard.)

Cersei herself is hilariously aghast at his ignorance at one point.

"And Ossifer Plumm was much too dead, but that did not stop him fathering a child, did it?" Her brother looked lost. "Who was Ossifer Plumm? Was he Lord Philip's father, or . . . who?" He is near as ignorant as Robert. All his wits were in his sword hand. (AFFC, Cersei III)

Tyrion knew what he was about when he emphasized the importance of books and independent reading.

Alas, I was born a Lannister of Casterly Rock, and the grotesqueries are all the poorer. Things are expected of me. My father was the Hand of the King for twenty years. My brother later killed that very same king, as it turns out, but life is full of these little ironies. My sister married the new king and my repulsive nephew will be king after him. I must do my part for the honor of my House, wouldn't you agree? Yet how? Well, my legs may be too small for my body, but my head is too large, although I prefer to think it is just large enough for my mind. I have a realistic grasp of my own strengths and weaknesses. My mind is my weapon. My brother has his sword, King Robert has his warhammer, and I have my mind … and a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge." Tyrion tapped the leather cover of the book. "That's why I read so much, Jon Snow." (AGOT, Tyrion II)

If Tyrion had been born able-bodied he might be as much of a "dumb" disaster as the rest of his siblings. As opposed to the clever disaster he is now.

[marwyn]

Rhaenyra Targaryen and Jon Snow: Parallels

Dynastic conflict with stepmother

The amity between Her Grace and her stepdaughter had proved short-lived, for both Rhaenyra and Alicent aspired to be the first lady of the realm…..and though the queen had given the king not one but two male heirs, Viserys had done nothing to change the order of succession. (“Heirs of the Dragon—A Question of Succession”)

Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse. “Jon must go,” she said now. (AGOT, Catelyn II)

And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn’s own grandchildren for Winterfell. (AGOT, Catelyn II)

Served as cupbearer/steward in preparation for leadership

At eight, the princess was placed into service as a cupbearer...but for her own father, the king. At table, at tourney, and at court, King Viserys thereafter was seldom seen without his daughter by his side. (“Heirs of the Dragon—A Question of Succession”)

“When I was little, my father used to insist that I attend him in the audience chamber whenever he held court. When he rode to Highgarden to bend his knee to Lord Tyrell, he made me come. Later, though, he started to take Dickon and leave me at home, and he no longer cared whether I sat through his audiences, so long as Dickon was there. He wanted his heir at his side, don’t you see? To watch and listen and learn from all he did. I’ll wager that's why Lord Mormont requested you, Jon. What else could it be? He wants to groom you for command!” (AGOT, Jon VI)

Brother was king

On the appointed day Ser Criston Cole placed the steel-and-ruby crown of Aegon the Conqueror upon the brow of the eldest son of King Viserys and Queen Alicent, proclaiming him Aegon of House Targaryen, Second of His Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm. (“The Dying of the Dragons—The Blacks and the Greens”)

“Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead!” He pointed at Robb with the blade. “There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m’lords,” he thundered. “The King in the North!” (Catelyn XI)

Marriage to uncle/potential marriage to aunt

Princess Rhaenyra had remarried, taking to husband her uncle, Daemon Targaryen. (“Heirs of the Dragon—A Question of Succession”)

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.... mother of dragons, bride of fire ... (ACOK, Daenerys IV)

Bisexual allegations

Whilst Princess Rhaenyra misliked her stepmother, Queen Alicent, she became fond and more than fond of her good-sister Lady Laena. (“Heirs of the Dragon—A Question of Succession”)

“Satin, show Her Grace to her place,” said Jon. Ser Malegorn stepped forward. “I will escort Her Grace to the feast. We shall not require your…steward.” The way the man drew out the last word told Jon that he had been considering saying something else. Boy? Pet? Whore? (ADWD, Jon X)

Killed in office

Sunfyre, it is said, did not seem at first to take any interest in the offering, until Broome pricked the queen's breast with his dagger. (“The Dying of the Dragons—Rhaenyra overthrown”)

Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. “Why?” “For the Watch.” (ADWD, Jon XIII)

[thelustybraavosimaid]

one of the craziest aspects of the line: what do you know of my heart. it's seeing jon being the one who jumps to conclusions. mel just says that the heart is important n that arya is not lost to him. but, she never says that she saw through his heart. ofc, she noticed something. however, he is the only one reveling himself lol. her use of heart is more in a general sense, she is trying to comfort his anxious heart. while he goes for something specific, establishing arya as his heart

"At evenfall, as the sun sets and we face the gathering night, you shall take your vows. From that moment, you will be a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch. Your crimes will be washed away, your debts forgiven. So too you must wash away your former loyalties, put aside your grudges, forget old wrongs and old loves alike. Here you begin anew. (Jon VI, AGoT)

--

Men came to the Wall from all of the Seven Kingdoms, and old loves and loyalties were not easily forgotten, no matter how many oaths a man swore...as Jon himself had good reason to know.  (Jon I, ACoK)

I think about these sometimes. A few times Jon had been tested in this way, his inability to forget those he loved, but doesn't this come to a head in the latter half of his ADwD, amidst juggling the free folk, the Night's Watch, the food crisis, etc? How his loyalty to Arya propels him to change the plan?

Regarding what you said, I like to make a comparison in this way:

"Is that the way of it, Jon Snow?" asked Mance Rayder, mildly. "Her and you?"

It was easy to lose your way beyond the Wall. Jon did not know that he could tell honor from shame anymore, or right from wrong. Father forgive me. "Yes," he said. Mance nodded. "Good. You'll go with Jarl and Styr on the morrow, then. Both of you. Far be it from me to separate two hearts that beat as one." (Jon II, ASoS)

Jon later thinks:

Two hearts that beat as one. Mance Rayder's mocking words rang bitter in his head. Jon had seldom felt so confused. (Jon III, ASoS)

While I am certainly not downplaying Ygritte's importance to Jon, I have always found it strange that he thinks of Mance's words as mocking when in (technically) the next book he wholeheartedly, without question, refers to Arya as his heart.

(George also knew what he was doing when 'dark heart' Arya was called Jon's heart, who refers to his own heart as black?!)

[istumpysk]

OPERATION ICEBERG: THE TIER LIST

THEORY:

Tormund Giantsbane x Maege Mormont

TIER:

People's Choice! Great job on Lemongate, I feel more at ease putting my faith in you again.

Possible: These theories could be true, but additional evidence is needed, as different interpretations or errors are possible.

vs.

Under Consideration: These theories haven't garnered strong or extensive evidence, but they're worthy of discussion.

vs.

50/50: These theories are complete toss-ups.

vs.

Low Probability: While not impossible, these theories are unlikely based on the current evidence.

[Tier list overview]

EVIDENCE:

Gather 'round, children. This is a fun one.

The theory:

The Tormund Giantsbane x Maege Mormont theory suggests that they may have had one or several intimate encounters, and Tormund could potentially be the father of one or more of Maege Mormont's daughters.

The proof:

In A Storm of Swords, the character Tormund Giantsbane is introduced, and we learn his various titles, one of which is "Husband to Bears."

Mance Rayder laughed. "As you wish. Jon Snow, before you stands Tormund Giantsbane, Tall-talker, Horn-blower, and Breaker of Ice. And here also Tormund Thunderfist, Husband to Bears, the Mead-king of Ruddy Hall, Speaker to Gods and Father of Hosts." - Jon I, ASOS

The sigil of House Mormont is a black bear. Members of the Mormont family, who hail from Bear Island, are frequently referred to as bears within the story.

The Mormonts of Bear Island were an old house, proud and honorable, but their lands were cold and distant and poor. - Eddard II, AGOT

x

The maester had taught him all the banners: the mailed fist of the Glovers, silver on scarlet; Lady Mormont's black bear; the hideous flayed man that went before Roose Bolton of the Dreadfort; a bull moose for the Hornwoods; a battle-axe for the Cerwyns; three sentinel trees for the Tallharts; and the fearsome sigil of House Umber, a roaring giant in shattered chains. - Bran VI, AGOT

x

"I am touched by your concern, Lord Mormont." The strong drink was making Tyrion light-headed, but not so drunk that he did not realize that the Old Bear wanted something from him. - Tyrion III, AGOT

x

Catelyn smiled despite herself. "You are braver than I am, I fear. Are all your Bear Island women such warriors?" "She-bears, aye," said Lady Maege. - Catelyn V, ASOS

x

"He wants you," said the She-Bear, after his third visit. Her proper name was Alysane of House Mormont, but she wore the other name as easily as she wore her mail. - The King's Prize, ADWD

x

Ser Jorah had been with her then, her gruff old bear. - Daenerys X, ADWD

Maege Mormont, the head of House Mormont, has five daughters: Dacey (now deceased), Alysane, Lyra, Jorelle, and Lyanna.

No one knows the father of Maege's children or if she married. Yet, all her daughters bear (ha!) the Mormont surname, and none appear to be considered bastards.

The tale that's commonly told is that Lady Maege took a bear as her lover, and this bear is the father of her children.

Maege Mormont is called Mormont because no one knows her husband's name, or even if she has one. - So Spake Martin

x

"Aye, Dywen says. And the last time he went ranging, he says he saw a bear fifteen feet tall." Mormont snorted. "My sister is said to have taken a bear for her lover. I'd believe that before I'd believe one fifteen feet tall. Though in a world where dead come walking . . . ah, even so, a man must believe his eyes. I have seen the dead walk. I've not seen any giant bears." - Jon I, ACOK

x

"Whoever the king names will not have an easy time stepping into your armor, I can tell. Lord Mormont faces the same problem." Lord Janos looked puzzled. "I thought she was a lady. Mormont. Beds down with bears, that's the one?" - Tyrion II, ACOK

x

"No. My children were fathered by a bear." Alysane smiled. Her teeth were crooked, but there was something ingratiating about that smile. "Mormont women are skinchangers. We turn into bears and find mates in the woods. Everyone knows." - The King's Prize, ADWD

Tormund is no bear, but you might say he's built like one.

Beside the brazier, a short but immensely broad man sat on a stool, eating a hen off a skewer. Hot grease was running down his chin and into his snow-white beard, but he smiled happily all the same. Thick gold bands graven with runes bound his massive arms, and he wore a heavy shirt of black ringmail that could only have come from a dead ranger. - Jon I, ASOS

x

But as the distance between them diminished Jon saw that the horseman was short and broad, with gold rings glinting on thick arms and a white beard spreading out across his massive chest. - Jon X, ASOS

x

He was not a tall man, Tormund Giantsbane, but the gods had given him a broad chest and massive belly. - Jon XI, ADWD

In the culture of the free folk, men often "steal" women for marriage, demonstrating their strength.

We look up at the same stars, and see such different things. The King's Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. "Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night." - Jon III, ASOS

x

"He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters." - Jon III, ASOS

x

"Harma and the Bag of Bones don't come raiding for fish and apples. They steal swords and axes. Spices, silks, and furs. They grab every coin and ring and jeweled cup they can find, casks of wine in summer and casks of beef in winter, and they take women in any season and carry them off beyond the Wall." - Jon V, ASOS

Bear Island is a secluded island in the north, situated in the Bay of Ice. Due to frequent raids by the free folk and the ironborn, Mormont women have become fierce warriors to prevent being carried off.

Catelyn smiled despite herself. "You are braver than I am, I fear. Are all your Bear Island women such warriors?" "She-bears, aye," said Lady Maege. "We have needed to be. In olden days the ironmen would come raiding in their longboats, or wildlings from the Frozen Shore. The men would be off fishing, like as not. The wives they left behind had to defend themselves and their children, or else be carried off." - Catelyn V, ASOS

(map!)

Now, for the crucial evidence.

In A Storm of Swords, Jon asks Tormund about his titles. Out of all Tormund's designations, the author chooses to delve into the backstory of "Husband of Bears."

We'll dissect this story step by step. However, please remember that Tormund is known for exaggerations and fabrications. Distinguishing fact from fiction and extracting the elements of truth can be tricky.

"Are all crows so curious?" asked Tormund. "Well, here's a tale for you. It were another winter, colder even than the one I spent inside that giant, and snowing day and night, snowflakes as big as your head, not these little things. It snowed so hard the whole village was half buried. I was in me Ruddy Hall, with only a cask o' mead to keep me company and nothing to do but drink it. The more I drank the more I got to thinking about this woman lived close by, a fine strong woman with the biggest pair of teats you ever saw. She had a temper on her, that one, but oh, she could be warm too, and in the deep of winter a man needs his warmth. "The more I drank the more I thought about her, and the more I thought the harder me member got, till I couldn't suffer it no more. Fool that I was, I bundled meself up in furs from head to heels, wrapped a winding wool around me face, and set off to find her. The snow was coming down so hard I got turned around once or twice, and the wind blew right through me and froze me bones, but finally I come on her, all bundled up like I was. "The woman had a terrible temper, and she put up quite the fight when I laid hands on her. It was all I could do to carry her home and get her out o' them furs, but when I did, oh, she was hotter even than I remembered, and we had a fine old time, and then I went to sleep. Next morning when I woke the snow had stopped and the sun was shining, but I was in no fit state to enjoy it. All ripped and torn I was, and half me member bit right off, and there on me floor was a she-bear's pelt. And soon enough the free folk were telling tales o' this bald bear seen in the woods, with the queerest pair o' cubs behind her. Har!" He slapped a meaty thigh. "Would that I could find her again. She was fine to lay with, that bear. Never was a woman gave me such a fight, nor such strong sons neither." - Jon II, ASOS

I was in me Ruddy Hall, with only a cask o' mead to keep me company and nothing to do but drink it.

Tormund is first introduced as Mead-king of Ruddy Hall. Ruddy Hall is beyond the Wall, but we don't know where.

The more I drank the more I got to thinking about this woman lived close by

Regardless of where Ruddy Hall is located beyond the Wall, it wouldn't be near Maege Mormont.

a fine strong woman with the biggest pair of teats you ever saw.

Maege Mormont is short and stout, and likely has large breasts like her daughter Alysane.

The daughter was tall and lean, the mother short and stout, but they dressed alike in mail and leather, with the black bear of House Mormont on shield and surcoat. - Catelyn V, ASOS

x

Her proper name was Alysane of House Mormont, but she wore the other name as easily as she wore her mail. Short, chunky, muscular, the heir to Bear Island had big thighs, big breasts, and big hands ridged with callus. - The King's Prize, ADWD

She had a temper on her, that one, but oh, she could be warm too, and in the deep of winter a man needs his warmth.

Maege Mormont has a temper,

The Old Bear sighed. "You are not the only one touched by this war. Like as not, my sister is marching in your brother's host, her and those daughters of hers, dressed in men's mail. Maege is a hoary old snark, stubborn, short-tempered, and willful. Truth be told, I can hardly stand to be around the wretched woman, but that does not mean my love for her is any less than the love you bear your half sisters." - Jon IX, AGOT

but she can also be warm.

Lady Mormont took her hand and said, "My lady, if Cersei Lannister held two of my daughters, I would have done the same." - Catelyn II, ASOS

x

Catelyn had grown fond of Lady Maege and her eldest daughter, Dacey; they were more understanding than most in the matter of Jaime Lannister, she had found. - Catelyn V, ASOS

Fool that I was, I bundled meself up in furs from head to heels, wrapped a winding wool around me face, and set off to find her. The snow was coming down so hard I got turned around once or twice, and the wind blew right through me and froze me bones, but finally I come on her, all bundled up like I was.

If he started at Ruddy Hall, Tormund would have needed a boat to reach Maege Mormont. He couldn't have walked.

Edit: D'oh. Thank you to @transdimensional-void and @grennseyelashes for pointing out the Bay of Ice could freeze over.

The woman had a terrible temper, and she put up quite the fight when I laid hands on her.

Maege Mormont is a fierce warrior.

Catelyn smiled despite herself. "You are braver than I am, I fear. Are all your Bear Island women such warriors?" "She-bears, aye," said Lady Maege. "We have needed to be. [...]" - Catelyn V, ASOS

x

The daughter was tall and lean, the mother short and stout, but they dressed alike in mail and leather, with the black bear of House Mormont on shield and surcoat. By Catelyn's lights, that was queer garb for a lady, yet Dacey and Lady Maege seemed more comfortable, both as warriors and as women, than ever the girl from Tarth had been. - Catelyn V, ASOS

It was all I could do to carry her home and get her out o' them furs, but when I did, oh, she was hotter even than I remembered, and we had a fine old time, and then I went to sleep.

Again, he couldn't have taken her home without a boat.

Edit: D'oh. Thank you to @transdimensional-void and @grennseyelashes for pointing out the Bay of Ice could freeze over.

All ripped and torn I was, and half me member bit right off, and there on me floor was a she-bear's pelt.

She-bear has only ever been used to describe women associated with House Mormont.

Catelyn smiled despite herself. "You are braver than I am, I fear. Are all your Bear Island women such warriors?" "She-bears, aye," said Lady Maege. - Catelyn V, ASOS

x

Ser Jorah sat up in his hammock. "Befriend her, then. Marry her, for all I care." That left a bad taste in his mouth as well. "Like with like, is that your notion? Do you mean to find a she-bear for yourself, ser?" - Tyrion VIII, ASOS

x

Alysane Mormont, whose men name her the She-Bear, hid fighters inside a gaggle of fishing sloops and took the ironmen unawares where they lay off the strand. - Jon VII, ADWD

And soon enough the free folk were telling tales o' this bald bear seen in the woods

This is a bit goofy, but a She-Bear leaving behind her pelt and wandering around bald is somewhat reminiscent of Alysane Mormont's tale about Mormont women being skinchangers.

"Mormont women are skinchangers. We turn into bears and find mates in the woods. Everyone knows." - The King's Prize, ADWD

with the queerest pair o' cubs behind her. Would that I could find her again. She was fine to lay with, that bear.

Tormund seems to be suggesting that this was a one-time affair, yet he also mentions that it resulted in a pair of children. Tricky.

Lady Mormont has five children with significant age gaps. If he's their father, it would require multiple visits over several decades. If 'cub' shouldn't be plural and he's only the father of one daughter, then which one might it be?

Probably not Dacey Mormont. She was six-foot-tall, pretty, lanky, willowy, and graceful — nothing like Tormund.

The most probable candidate is Alysane Mormont. She shares a build with Tormund (and Maege), is now the heir to Bear Island, and is the most prominently featured Mormont daughter in the story.

Short, chunky, muscular, the heir to Bear Island had big thighs, big breasts, and big hands ridged with callus. - The King's Prize, ADWD

Never was a woman gave me such a fight, nor such strong sons neither.

Sons, plural. After potentially just one encounter. That's a problem.

He might simply be referring to two of his four sons: Toregg, Torwynd, Dryn, and Dormund. Their mother's identity remains unknown.

However, while Maege Mormont has no sons, she does have five daughters with impressively strong characters who comfortably take on traditionally masculine roles.

Stout, grey-haired Maege Mormont, dressed in mail like a man, told Robb bluntly that he was young enough to be her grandson, and had no business giving her commands … but as it happened, she had a granddaughter she would be willing to have him marry. - Bran VI, AGOT

x

Like as not, my sister is marching in your brother's host, her and those daughters of hers, dressed in men's mail. - Jon IX, AGOT

x

One of his companions was even a woman: Dacey Mormont, Lady Maege's eldest daughter and heir to Bear Island, a lanky six-footer who had been given a morningstar at an age when most girls were given dolls. Some of the other lords muttered about that, but Catelyn would not listen to their complaints. - Catelyn X, AGOT

x

"I have fought beside the Young Wolf in every battle," Dacey Mormont said cheerfully. "He has not lost one yet." - Catelyn V, ASOS

x

Smalljon Umber and Robin Flint sat near Robb, to the other side of Fair Walda and Alyx, respectively. Neither of them was drinking; along with Patrek Mallister and Dacey Mormont, they were her son's guards this evening. - Catelyn VII, ASOS

x

Her proper name was Alysane of House Mormont, but she wore the other name as easily as she wore her mail. Short, chunky, muscular, the heir to Bear Island had big thighs, big breasts, and big hands ridged with callus. Even in sleep she wore ringmail under her furs, boiled leather under that, and an old sheepskin under the leather, turned inside out for warmth. All those layers made her look almost as wide as she was tall. And ferocious. Sometimes it was hard for Asha Greyjoy to remember that she and the She-Bear were almost of an age. - The King's Prize, ADWD

x

Stannis read from the letter. "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK. A girl of ten, you say, and she presumes to scold her lawful king." - Jon I, ADWD

But again, there are age gaps between all of them, and this would necessitate multiple trips to Bear Island.

Other things to consider:

It's possible that Tormund's She-Bear is actually Alysane Mormont, who has a son and a daughter and also asserts that their father is a bear. However, considering Alysane's age (mid-twenties), it seems more plausible that the She-Bear is Maege.

Some people believe the title "Breaker of Ice" might allude to the Bay of Ice, but that's a stretch.

Tormund has five other children, and he seems to be actively involved in their lives.

Alysane Mormont is currently headed to Castle Black, so there might be more clues ahead.

STUMPY'S THOUGHTS:

Maege Mormont being carried off by Tormund, only to rise in the middle of the night and take herself back home, is one of the more amusing tales I can think of. I mean, if you ignore the rape part.

Truly, I don't even know what tier to put this in. There are so many issues with that story, but given Tormund's nature, it's hard to discern what's real from what's not.

VOTE:

I welcome discussions. Feel free to reblog, respond, or challenge my perspective—I won't be offended by any of it.

Please note, if "no" is the eventual winner, or if it's competitive, a second poll will be conducted to determine the proper location.

NEXT THEORY:

Theon's bastard

[Main menu]

[queen-of-andor]

DANY - TYRION - JON

Home? The word made her feel sad. Ser Jorah had his Bear Island, but what was home to her? A few tales, names recited as solemnly as the words of a prayer, the fading memory of a red door …

When he was still a lonely child in the depths of Casterly Rock, he oft rode dragons through the nights, pretending he was some lost Targaryen princeling, or a Valyrian dragonlord soaring high o'er fields and mountains. 

The dragon has three heads.

There are two men in the world who I can trust,

if I can find them.

We will be three against the world,

like Aegon and his sisters.

No one had told him the Night's Watch would be like this; no one except from Tyrion Lannister

She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

A blue flower grew from a chick in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness...

AGOT - DAENERYS VI// Homeless - Marina Kaye// ADWD - TYRION II // Home Work : a memoir of my Hollywood years - Julie Edwards Andrews// Game of Thrones s06ep10// ASOS - DAENERYS VI// Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister - Mike S. Miller//ADWD cover - Marc Fishman// ASOS - DAENERYS VI// Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister - Michael Komarck// AGOT - JON III// Quote by Shannon Alder// I want and I don't want - Moonassi// ASOS - JON XII//Quote by Melissa Cox// ACOK - DAENERYS IV

[a-thousand-eyes-and-one]

A World of Ice & Fire / AGOT, Jon IV / Fire & Blood / AGOT, Jon VI / Fire & Blood / ASOS, Jon XI / A World of Ice & Fire / ACOK, Daenerys I / Fire & Blood / AGOT, Jon III

Queen Visenya Targaryen + Jon Snow parallels throughout the series and its additions.

[ladystoneboobs]

y’know, whatever the true parentage of aegon vi aka young griff, in a way he is more like rhaegar than jon snow is. by which i mean their attempts to force themselves into archetypal roles, rhaegar as the prophesied hero against supernatural dark forces and yg as the hidden-prince-in-exile come to save the country and restore peace and harmony by taking the throne.

rhaegar’s very existence is owed to a prophecy, when the ghost of high heart said the ptwp would come of aerys/rhaella’s line they were forced to get married by their father. his destiny was decided and agreed before he was born, as just a hypothetical male prince. bc ofc this promised prince must be a son born with a cock, right? no one ever looked for or expected a princess for this. and when he was born during the mysterious tragedy at summerhall, what could be more of a sign that the prophecy was fulfilled? no need to keep waiting for any more kids, anyone further down the line, this baby had such a dramatic entrance he has got to be the specialest boy of all. rhaegar likely knew all of this from a very young age. grandpa jaehaerys ii believed enough to force his kids to marry, so he wouldn’t want this important planning to go to waste by taking it to his grave, now, would he? was rhaegar reading all the time bc his favorite genre was old prophecy scrolls or was he always doing homework to become the hero he knew he already was? does it really matter when either way he never really had much choice in his role in life? one day he finally goes to train with the master-at-arms only bc he realized from his reading that he “must” be a warrior. he became as great at that as he was at anything else, according to ser barry, but he never enjoyed knighthood. 

to me that’s all a far cry from jon, who grew up idolizing daeron the young dragon and dreaming of glory and conquest. jon, who spent most of his waking hours training in the yard even when injured at the end of asos, just bc he didn’t know what else to do and it helped him blow off steam. jon, who had a nostalgic “hunger” in him when hearing the sound of swords in the yard as lc. the same guy who as of acok still couldn’t get why sam would consider old books and crumbling scolls to be treasure. jon, who has nothing but doubts once he does rise to power and herodom as lord commander and can’t conquer them. and most importantly, jon, the hero who chanced into his role as shield guarding the realms of men only bc ned won the fight at the toj after rhaegar died and took him to be raised in the north. if/when jon does return to life and take his place as a heroic head of the dragon, that role can only be his own choice, not one he was raised for his entire life, just as his membership in the night’s watch was ultimately his own choice based on his northern childhood. (jon’s conception may have also been prophecy-related, but beyond that, his path and rhaegar’s sharply diverged.)

know who was shaped for a royal destiny “since before he could walk”, though? that’s right, aegon in essos aka young griff. his destiny was already chosen for him by the schemes of illyrio/varys just as rhaegar’s was by grampy jae ii and other dragon prophecy nerds before him. he studied his scrolls and trained with the royal master-at-arms just as aegon studied in the routines of his entourages and was trained by knights of the golden company.

and, at some point, we know rhaegar realized he wasn’t the ptwp and decided it was his first son, aegon, instead. mostly bc a comet was seen the night of aegon’s conception. i remember seeing a post years ago saying rhaegar must have spotted the comet that night, run naked straight to elia, and declared they had to get babymaking asap bc the comet was a sign too significant to be ignored. a joke post, prob, but i feel like there’s prob a lot of truth to the idea of rhaegar desparetely forcing the signs to add up, concieving a child on that night after he’d already seen the comet rather than just happening to have sex with elia on the same night there just happened to be a comet sighting. i believe this bc why would it all just be lucky coincidence if aegon vi was not the ptwp? lbr now, whether he indeed got his head smashed in by the mountain or was switched out and sent to essos, rhaegar’s elder son was/is not the promised hero. (just like rhaegar himself could not be the pwtp, after all.) a previously-thought-dead-for-16-years newbie with shaky parentage credentials introduced this late in the game is not going to steal both jon’s and dany’s thunder like that, c’mon. so a comet appearing just for his conception feels about as likely as red rahloo actually killing 3 kings just for the sake of frickin’ stannis. it’s even possible that rhaegar later decided aegon might not be the ptwp either and put more stock in dragon head #3 bc of the whole ice and fire union aspect with lyanna. we just don’t have enough info about that part of the story to know for sure. but there’s no suggestion he was unhappy with elia beforehand or that either of them thought she could not bear more children until the maesters actually said so after aegon’s birth. and even if he was “right” about lyanna’s child being the most important one (ew), he was still counting on both aegon and rhaenys to be the other two heads of the dragon, and presumably planned to raise all 3 of them for their destiny together in kl as he had been. in which case his plans utterly failed, because that is just not at all what happened with any of those kids.

in that sense, death is what jon and his bio dad most have in common as they both walked fairly boldly and blindly into their doom. but the circumstances are still a bit different as jon was murdered in a mutiny rather than killed in battle, not to mention his likely resurrection as an actual hero of prophecy. despite being around 10 years older than either jon or aegon is presently, i’d say rhaegar was even more naively overconfident in his plans than jon was in his final moments. to go that quickly and without any known hesitation through each change of plans from simply being ptwp himself to becoming a warrior as well as a weirdo nerd to fathering 3 heads of the dragon to truly fulfill prophecy to organizing a political coup at harrenhal to honoring lyanna instead to eloping with her after aegon’s birth to make her wife #2 and mother of dragon head #3 to riding off to one definitve battle against cousin robert after hiding in his lovenest with lyanna for months, idk, that does not read to me as someone suffering the same questions and doubts jon did in the nw. rhaegar told jaime “when this battle’s done” not “if i return in victory” in their farewell. he had no back-up plans in case of his defeat, leaving elia with aerys and lyanna in the toj, no plans for how to protect either wife or any of his all-important prophesied progeny in the event of his loss, just as he had no immediate plans to deal with aerys yet. (compare that to idealistic young king robb stark, thought to be recklessly honorable and accused of thinking himself invincible in his youth, yet he still managed to make plans for his succession should he die childless in battle, and planned to put his wife and mother in strongholds held by trustworthy (sane) allies who could defend their positions for some time in his absence.) all that only makes sense to me if he always thought he’d still have time for all that later, never truly envisioning the possibility of house targ being overthrown so soon when all his hero kids were still babies. 

after all, whether he was the ptwp himself or only meant to raise the 3 promised dragon heads as heroes, surely their destiny was already written years before and he couldn’t go out in such a mundane way, right? i’d say aegon/yg shows the same kind of overconfidence in going along with all the gc’s changes in planning, from whatever varys/illyrio originally wanted with viserys iii alive to finding dany and marrying her after the birth of her dragons to leaving for an invasion of westeros first to conquer the stormlands himself before wedding dany as equals. he never imagined she could refuse him until tyrion told him so, and imo is still not grasping that his female relation could prove more important than him in westeros with her 3 dragons. rhaegar may have known he was doomed since his tragic birth among so much death and later knew he wasn’t the pwtp, but he likely still expected a higher doom, one as dramatic and magical as his birth at summerhall. he couldn’t imagine his chest being caved in by lyanna’s dumbass ex, his boorish cousin robert, just as aegon/yg can’t know what doom could be in store for him in westeros either. 

[jon-sedai]

JON SNOW FORTNIGHT EVENT 2023

Day 12 - House Targaryen

Robb looked relieved. “Good.” He smiled. “The next time I see you, you’ll be all in black.”

Jon forced himself to smile back. “It was always my color."

- Jon II, AGOT

It’s interesting to see how the color black acts as a link between Jon and House Targaryen, especially when it comes to marking who has legitimacy and/or the right to rule.

The most obvious tether to this link is Jon’s father, Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, who has often been associated with the color black.

They had come together at the ford of the Trident… Robert with his warhammer… the Targaryen prince armored all in black. 

- Eddard I, AGOT

The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. 

- Jaime I, AFFC

Seventeen and new to knighthood, Rhaegar had worn black plate over golden ringmail when he cantered onto the lists. 

- Cersei V, AFFC

And Rhaegar has also been recognized as a true scion of House Targaryen.

"Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, and he died on the Trident. Viserys is less than the shadow of a snake."

- Daenerys III, AGOT

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

- Jaime VI, ASOS

But Rhaegar isn't the only Targaryen who is associated with the color black. Of course, Black is the house’s color. But there are a few remarkable Targaryens whose association with this particular color is notable. 

We have Aegon the Conqueror whose steed was called Balerion “the black dread”. Of the three dragons used to bring Westeros to its heels, Balerion was the most fearsome one and was ridden by the man who would eventually become king of the entire continent. Balerion the “black dread” was a king’s dragon.

Aegon's dragons were named for the gods of Old Valyria. Visenya's dragon was Vhagar, Rhaenys had Meraxes, and Aegon rode Balerion, the Black Dread. It was said that Vhagar's breath was so hot that it could melt a knight's armor and cook the man inside, that Meraxes swallowed horses whole, and Balerion ... his fire was as black as his scales, his wings so vast that whole towns were swallowed up in their shadow when he passed overhead.

- Daenerys I, ACOK

Then we have Rhaenyra, the dragon queen who commanded the faction known as the “Blacks” during the Dance of the Dragons. Per King Viserys’ decree, Rhaenyra was the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Like Rhaegar, she has a special narrative link to the color black. And like Rhaegar, she also served as Princess of Dragonstone and was crowned there (Dragonstone being House Targaryen's seat, thus marking Rhaenyra as one continuing House Targaryen's legacy).

Once his mourning for his wife and son had run its course, the king moved swiftly to resolve the long-simmering issue of the succession. Disregarding the precedents set by King Jaehaerys in 92 and the Great Council in 101, Viserys declared his daughter, Rhaenyra, to be his rightful heir, and named her Princess of Dragonstone. In a lavish ceremony at King’s Landing, hundreds of lords did obeisance to the Realm’s Delight as she sat at her father’s feet at the base of the Iron Throne, swearing to honor and defend her right of succession.

- Heirs of the Dragon - A Question of Succession, Fire & Blood

And so the Dance began, as the princess called a council of her own. “The black council,” the True Telling names that gathering on Dragonstone, setting it against the “green council” of King’s Landing. Rhaenyra herself presided, seated between her uncle and husband, Prince Daemon, and her trusted counselor, Maester Gerardys. 

- The Dying of the Dragons—The Blacks and the Greens, Fire & Blood 

From Aegon I, to Rhaenyra, to Rhaegar, GRRM uses black as a marker of a true Targaryen heir. This is continued by Daenerys, the last of the dragons, and her steed Drogon.

The Dothraki looked at her hatchlings uneasily. The largest of her three was shiny black, his scales slashed with streaks of vivid scarlet to match his wings and horns. “Khaleesi,” Aggo murmured, “there sits Balerion, come again.”

- Daenerys I, ACOK

Dany’s connection to Aegon is one of the signifiers of her status as a true Targaryen heir (and the true bearer of House Targaryen’s legacy).

The black dread, the black queen, and the black bastard…

Some nights she heard talk of him, in the taverns and brothels of the Ragman’s Harbor. The Black Bastard of the Wall, one man had called him.

- The Blind Girl, ADWD

And Jon being called the "black bastard" is quite ironic, because as we know,

One by one Arya had chased them down and snatched them up and brought them proudly to Syrio Forel … all but this one, this one-eared black devil of a tomcat. “That’s the real king of this castle right there,” one of the gold cloaks had told her. “Older than sin and twice as mean. One time, the king was feasting the queen’s father, and that black bastard hopped up on the table and snatched a roast quail right out of Lord Tywin’s fingers. Robert laughed so-hard he like to burst. You stay away from that one, child.”

- Arya III, AGOT

[thelustybraavosimaid]

??????

She literally was not dreaming when she thought of the wind howling:

"Ser Sweetrobin," Lord Robert said, and Alayne knew that she dare not wait for Mya to return. She helped the boy dismount, and hand in hand they walked out onto the bare stone saddle, their cloaks snapping and flapping behind them. All around was empty air and sky, the ground falling away sharply to either side. There was ice underfoot, and broken stones just waiting to turn an ankle, and the wind was howling fiercely. It sounds like a wolf, thought Sansa. A ghost wolf, big as mountains. (Alayne II, AFfC)

and there are an assortment of instances of George equating the wind to wolves howling. Some examples:

Above Snow, the wind was a living thing, howling around them like a wolf in the waste, then falling off to nothing as if to lure them into complacency. (Catelyn VI, AGoT)

--

Rymund the Rhymer sang through all the courses, sparing her the need to talk. He closed with the song he had written about Robb's victory at Oxcross. "And the stars in the night were the eyes of his wolves, and the wind itself was their song." Between the verses, Rymund threw back his head and howled, and by the end, half of the hall was howling along with him, even Desmond Grell, who was well in his cups. Their voices rang off the rafters. (Catelyn VI, ACoK)

--

That night the wind was howling almost like a wolf and there were some real wolves off to the west giving it lessons. (Arya VIII, ASoS)

--

"It was the cold," Gared said with iron certainty. "I saw men freeze last winter, and the one before, when I was half a boy. Everyone talks about snows forty foot deep, and how the ice wind comes howling out of the north, but the real enemy is the cold. (Prologue, AGoT)

And her thinking of the wind howling is not nearly around the same time that Jon died lol??? The one who hears a wolf after Jon dies is Daenerys.

Sansa stans are still out here pushing fanfic as canon, I see 🤣