#jewish doesnt mean zionist

[official-oshun]

I'm not going to lie, I hate the term "Jewish Supremacy" when discussing Israel, because I'm 99% sure it is also a conspiracy theory term. And none of these same people using "Jewish supremacy" would ever say "Muslim Supremacy" to describe a fascist self-proclaimed Islamic country.

Anti-Zionist, please mind your words. Language matters.

[aelinfireheartgalathynius]

The discourse about Sarah J Maas being called a Zionist is giving witch hunt vibes at this point. Nothing I've seen has been conclusive at all. Just because she's a Jewish woman who went on birthright doesn't mean you should loudly denounce her as supporting genocide.

I am a Jewish woman who is pro-Palestine — so, not a Zionist — but who loves her Jewish diaspora culture. I have anti-zionist and non-zionist Jewish friends who went on Birthright because it's a free trip abroad. I know Jewish people who are staunch Israel supporters and I have Jewish friends going to pro-Palestine protests. Jews are not all one thing, and in fact it's ingrained in our culture that we have NEVER been one thing. There are Jews of all races, of all levels of religious belief, across the political and socioeconomic spectrum, scattered across the world.

If I were a semi-public figure (I say semi because Sarah has been clear that she is not the one posting on her public accounts and she doesn't have much interaction with fans outside of tours) people would probably have loud assumptions about me being a Zionist because I am publicly Jewish, I was a Jewish Studies minor in college, and I used to work at a synagogue. Guess what? I'm not a Zionist. I donate to UNWRA monthly, I do my clicks for Palestine, and I do my best to support with what I have. As a multi-disabled person that's all I can handle right now. If I were a semi-public figure I don't know if I would feel comfortable posting anything publicly either, because people are vicious and terrifying creatures. Sarah has a husband and child. She had gotten threats about fucking ship wars. This is so much more intense than ship wars.

Making these loud assumptions and calling for boycotting SJM, commenting on her social posts even though she isn't the one reading those comments — this is what antisemitism looks like. I know those of you who are angry at Sarah won't want to hear that, or will say that 'everything is antisemitic now' — which is a refrain that should raise red flags since it's the same argument other people use about transphobia, homophobia, racism, etc. You're the good guys, you support Palestine and you're anti-genocide and so on. But using stereotypes about an ethnic group to make assumptions and harass an individual of that ethnic group is not a good look even if you're convinced you're doing it for a good reason. Take that energy and put it toward spreading awareness, contacting politicians, attending protests, maybe even sharing messages from public figures who have posted publicly.

I understand that a lot of non-Jews (and a small number of Jews) are saying that it "has nothing to do" with Sarah being Jewish, it's just that she hasn't "used her platform." I implore you to consider why you are seeing and sharing such anger toward this one (fairly private) Jewish woman and not toward other prominent authors, especially those who are more active online, who have also not spoken out. Do some soul-searching and many of you may find that because Sarah is Jewish, you feel that she owes you a public stance more than other people. Because she is Jewish you feel confident enough to make an assumption about her views and post publicly about these assumptions. That is antisemitism at work. That is why this feels like a witch hunt to me, and why it is upsetting to watch.

As a reminder, I am pro-Palestine. I am not posting this to defend anyone. I am posting this to remind everyone that Jews are not all Zionists. Jews are not all one thing, ever. And deciding you get to hand down judgement on a Jewish person who has not shared their views publicly is antisemitism. It is deciding that you can assume negative things about Jewish people from afar. It is deciding that some antisemitism is actually okay — good, even, if you think it's warranted. I understand that people have other qualms with her writing, but those are not tied to her Jewishness, they're tied to her doing things like using the name Illyria and Illyrians for her ACOTAR series, etc, which is the kind of thing other fantasy authors have done over the years. Doesn't make it good or right but it certainly doesn't have anything to do with Palestine or Zionism.

If you disagree with me, please do not send hatred into my inbox. I am asking you to interact with this post thoughtfully. If your disagreement is going to be an explanation of how Jewish people owe the world every ounce of our energy, health, safety and lives, please step away and take a breath. I do not share your opinion. I have great admiration for those risking life and limb, risking jobs, risking arrest, to support Palestine. However, not everyone should be *required* to do all of those things, especially if you're disproportionately expecting those larger actions from Jews, thinking we "owe" it to the world.

Also, I want to be clear: This is not really about whether Sarah is a Zionist. It's about the fact that we don't know, and you cannot pretend to know. Most of the arguments I'm seeing are making a lot of assumptions, and that is the part that makes me uncomfortable.

If Sarah ends up being a Zionist, I still stand by this post, because it isn't about defending Sarah, it's about my hurt and disappointment in seeing people make assumptions rooted in antisemitism, assuming someone's views based on Jewishness and little else.

[storm-of-feathers]

People keep responding to seeing the magen david by pasting the Palestinian flag over it. you're all so fucking stupid.

[painandalsosuffering]

reminder that you can be anti-zionist and NOT anti-semetic.

[borrelia]

that thing that keeps happening where a blogger attempts to point out the pervasive spread of casual antisemitism from otherwise well-meaning pro-palestine blogs (as in: reblogging posts that slip some dogwhistles into their support for palestine) but then as you read the replies + their other recent posts it becomes apparent they r in fact believing zionist (state of israel and its allies in the us, uk, others) lies about hamas beheading babies and "from the land to the sea" advocating jewish genocide and it turns out even if they did have a salient point in there abt the spread of antisemitism they are also generally upset about people being vocally pro-palestine and anti-israel.

[brick-van-dyke]

You save shit for arguments?? Get a life lmao who does that...

Basic sources still would take a while to read through unless you want a need abstract summary of all my points compiled into one.

I really find that hard to believe since, again, you think sources can just be read in five seconds as if they're half a page and you'd know. Sure I can skim, maybe find a few for you but really? Again? Online arguments don't educate, they just throw weight around and doing that regularly is... so crazy to me??

Anyway yeah, I don't really believe you. At the very least, it makes me wonder about bias in the university, which I guess isn't unheard of with the privatisation of them these days and if it's in certain places I know there is suppression of certain content but??

Look, I'm currently studying so sure I'll admit I'm not a PHD professor in everything we're talking about but the idea of "oh just show me the saved sources you have on this" is so crazy. I'm on my damn phone and just here to say maybe grouping all Jews as Zionists is bad, but hey since you and the person commenting agree on that point, what is there to correct? You both are polar ends of the "all Jews are Zionists" idea and agree. Congrats, you're both equally antisemetic.

dear jumblr: STOP LOOKING DOWN ON AND CONDESCENDING TO CONVERTS.

this includes saying “ofc converts don’t notice antisemitism.” or “they’re a convert, they don’t know any better.”

i really don’t think a lot of you realize how many converts don’t reveal they are converts because of this kind of behavior. my own patrilineal convert parent refuses to publicly, not because they are excluded, but because of the condescension. the way converts are basically patted on the head even if they have ancestry, are patrilineal, were raised in a jewish environment, etc. or have none of these at all.

if converts are equals to you, treat them that way. most gerim learned more during their process than many of us learn in hebrew school, let alone what most secular “born” jews learn throughout their lives. so yes, converts DO spot antisemitism. they DO know things. and there isn’t an excuse for them to be bigoted, to spread lies about our people, or to side with our enemies or to otherwise harm their community. just like there isn’t an excuse for any other jew to do so.

you are not being open minded or accepting thinking and talking this way. you are actually engaging in exclusion and separation. you’re looking down on converts instead of treating them like they have equal standing.

if a convert doesnt know something or does display bad behavior? call them in instead of making excuses for them. treat them like equals, because that is what they are.

[xclowniex]

from a realistic point of view, i dont see how zionism doesnt lead to non-jewish palestinian death or at least repression. if you have a state which has it enshrined in its founding documentation that it is For "Jewish People" (israel has been carefree about fucking over people they dont consider to be Jewish in the right way). two state solution doesnt even solve it since the assumption is just to have another israel and shove all the people they dont think count as jews over to palestinian state and pretend like they didnt just make an ethnostate

The reason you do not see how it doesn't lead to palestinian death is because on a fundamental level, you do not understand zionism from a jewish perspective.

Jews can and have, taken DNA tests and proved that we are descdant from cannanites who lived in Southern Levant. There is history too proving our orign from the region. A lot of jews were forced out due to various empires wanting to kill us, however some jews remained in the region.

Zionism is simply about self determination for jews as one of the indigenous peoples to the region. It does not inherently imply that palestinians are not indigenous as you can very much have two indigenous groups in a region, eg Moriori and Maori for example, both are indigenous to land which is part of New Zealand, but are two different groups.

I'm not going to say that no zionist ever wants harm to palestinians as there are, however the majority of zionists want a two state solution or a land for all solution (which is different to a one state solution of israel or palestine).

Indigenous groups do deserve self determination. This applies to all indigenous groups world wide. One indigenous group gaining self determination does not inherently harm another group of people, indigenous or not.

Ideologies can be implemented badly and not mean that the inherent concept is bad. For example, communism. No country has ever sucessfully implemented communism as they never leave the transition phase without something going wrong. Saying that zionism always hurts palestinians is like saying that communism is inherently genocidal because of China and Russia.

There are plenty of zionist solutions which does not harm palestinians which are deemed as ideal solutions by zionists, such as versions of a two state solution and land for all solutions.

Israel is also not an ethnostate. The percentage of israeli jews is almost equal to those who are New Zealand European in NZ, yet no one calls NZ an ethnostate. There are plenty of other countries whose majority population is around a similar percentage of 70% - 75% of a country and that country does not get called an ethnostate. Either, all countries with the majority ethnicity percentage above are ethnostates, or the threshold percentage needs to be higher for a country to be an ethno state, or if its only Israel who is an ethnostate and other countries with similar percentage are not, then you hold an antisemitic belief as the only jewish state should not be an exception for purely being a jewish state.

I would also like to touch on yoru usage of "non-jewish palestinian".

Whilst palestinian jews do exist (and I do know one personally), they are a very small minority of palestinians. It is illegal to be jewish in Gaza and the West Bank, so there are no rabbi's there for palestinians to convert. So I am very confused as to what you mean as there are no palestinian jews in palestine, and those that exist in the diaspora are a minority in both aspects, so whilst they deserve recognising and care, your wording is very strange and dogwhistle like. The reason I say dog whistle like, is because it is a common dog whistle for people to say that palestinians are the real jews and who we refer to as jews today are fake jews, which is obviously antisemitic.

[aguineapigcouldntdothis]

telling jews (yes, even israeli jews) to go back to europe is absolutely antisemitic. it doesnt matter if they're ethnically european or not its still a disgusting thing to say. and it doesnt matter if you say "oh i only mean zionists" bc first of all you dont, second of all zionism was created as a response to rampant antisemitism in europe. do you think europe has been historically friendly to jews? do you think ANY place has done that? have you considered there may be a reason why jewish people consistently move to israel? or do you see 1 jew with a shitty misinformed take and immediately decide we shouldnt have the right to decide where to live? huge fuck you to anyone who claims to give a shit about intersectionality then all that falls out the window when it's time to talk about jewish people

[jewish-vents]

Goys live in a completely different world

The most milquetoast antisemitic takes that if u talked to every jew could point out just doesnt register to them, all the comments are bending over backwards to deny it and all the jewish comments are filled with hate

its just "antizionism" or "they didnt mean it like that", "ur just mad bc ur zionist", "ur the one being antisemetic actually"

The worst one is where they just go into visceral detail about whatever gore video they watched on twitter to show "you dont have it that bad!!!"

.

[official-oshun]

Reminder that some freak broke into a Jewish household just to spew insane antisemetic shit like??? How is this freeing Palestine be real and focus this + smashin in jew-owned Business windows? California get it together

[ch4liz4rd-jpeg]

one of the absolutely most frustrating things in the western leftist attitude towards "zionism" is that they use zionism to describe something that has its own word. kahanism. but instead they choose to go through hoops to redefine a belief system that ISNT theirs to define. words change overtime, but westerners and goyim dont get to decide what a word that is culturally significant to jews means. and just because the tiny fraction of jews that are antizionist allow you to decide doesnt mean that the wider jewish community who are zionists agree with that.

lets also get one thing clear: zionism is an ancient jewish value. throughout the jewish peoples time in exile away from the land of israel, there was always a strong desire to return to zion, which refers to yerushalayim or the land of israel as a whole. just because someone jew in America might tell you "well i feel no connection to israel" DOESNT MEAN THAT EVERY JEW AGREES.

zionism is the belief that the jewish people deserve self determination in our ancient ancestral land, which encompasses the kingdom of israel and judah. that what it is at its very core. in modern definitions its the idea that the state of israel deserves to continue existing.

ive seen antizionists define zionism as "facism" just a Different ideology, or something along the lines of "kill palestinians" and "take over the world" no where in zionist belief do we think that jews must take over the world, or that palestinians must die for jews to live. or that the modern state of israel must be an exclusively jewish state. the founders of israel picked sovereignty snd safety over maximalism, meaning they chose to settle for the land given in the agreements ALTHOUGH a lot of the land that has our ancient history wasnt actually in our defined land which remains as such to this day.

now, kahanism. kahanism is in my eyes an appropriation of what zionism is. kahanism is an extreme right wing and racist take/"branch" of zionism. the idea that israel must be exclusively jewish, no arabs no muslims no christians, and many kahanists like ben gvir even believe that israel should reoccupy the gaza strip. kahanism ( the kach party) was banned from the knesset, israels parliament. but i think its with this move that our rotten politicians did to circumvent this ban is what has really fucked the perception of israel and zionism beyond repair alongside the propaganda about what zionism is. kahanists have essentially decided that kahanism is actually what truly zionist belief is, so they decide to call their movement a Zionist movement. so the "oztma yehudit" (jewish power, disgusting of them to call themselves this btw 😀😀) party peddles the idea that theyre a zionist movement when really, they are just kahanist and anti arab and anti palestinian. its not fucking "jewish power" to be racist. its maddening to me how many "zionists" are actually racist and bigoted and kahanist and then a lot of antizionists see them and say "look at so so, they say theyre zionist and theyre actually racist bigots who want to flatten gaza, every zionist believes that" and when you believe in palestinian self determination and the continued existence of israel and are thus a zionist, youre now morally wrong and inferior, when the perception of zionism is so beyond warped from its true definition. and as much as people will say "not all jews are zionists!" and "im not antisemetic im jusy antizionist!" its very clear how this has given a lot of closeted jew haters the chance to spew blood libel and misinformation. i do believe that there are well intentioned people in the anti israel/anti zionist/pro palestine movement. i truly truly want to believe that. and if you got this far and consider yourself pro palestine, look left snd right in your movement. learn about the old blood libel thst was used against jews for thousands of years thst is now beinh rehashed with more palatable language. there is a LOT of antisemitism in the palestinian movement, and if people who are truly not jew haters have to stand up for what is right to wash the movement clean of antisemitic libel and violence.

i couldnt find a place to fit this in the previous paragraph but israelis are constantly fighting bibis coalition, most israelis crave nothing more then our hostages back and bibi out of politics. our government has done literally nothing to actually help us for a long fucking time. it is incompetent snd we are in dire need to a better prime minister. im thinking of doing a post about how israeli elections, coalitions, parties and knesset works plus an overview of the parties and their ideologies at some point, so lmk if youd be interested

so, pro palestinian and dont hate jews or israelis? actually want to stand for peace?? seriously, put in the effort. because we cannot see you. you are overshadowed by people using the movement to be antisemitic and spread lies about the jewish people.

[s-c-l-n]

fuck noah schnapp man its so easy to be jewish and not a zionist he just doesnt have the balls on him to do so

and yes being raised jewish does mean zionist indoctrination we cannot overlook that but we are also smart people who can look at an issue and go “wow !! thats bad !!! we shouldnt let anyone do this !!!” and it doesnt mean we hate our religion or our people it just means we are humans who understand tragedy

and an open letter to any jewish zionists out there: we as a group have lived through horrible and horrific things, but that does not give us a right to continue the cycle of abuse of colonization/genocide. we as a people are better then this and we do not need a country tied to us. do not let israel weaponize and abuse your religion snd your culture in the name of justice they dont care about us. if they cared they would take much better care of their holocaust survivors. they wouldnt be begging people to come to their country. they wouldnt be cherry picking judaism to what matters to their cause. be on the right side of history and said for our brothers and sisters of palestine

[p41nty]

adam katz has done way too much shit and y'all just let it slide we all know about the ableism in the show and the fact he blocked who dared criticize him, but let's talk about the blatant ZIONISM of this man:

he had an isreali flag in his instagram bio until he was called out for it.

he said he put it there for "jewish pride" BITCH THAT'S NOT AN EXCUSE, THE GENOCIDE HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR 70 YEARS

he originally wanted to delay an episode for ONE DAY "to express our condemnation of violence"… sounds like shitty white man capitalist performative activism doesn't it

when he was called out he deleted his twt, privated his instagram and blamed it all on "harassment" and "death threats". what a fucking coward. y'all yt ppl love using the word "harassment" as a fucking buzzword

his mother, jill katz, openly expressed her support for isreal and was following the IOF on twitter. guess the apple doesn't fall far away from the tree.

we should kill this fucker already

do i even have the mental capacity to reply to this coherently.

adam is not his mother? he doesnt share the same views? hes made it explicitly clear he does not support the genocide. hes a jewish man who wanted to celebrate jewish pride but all of you motherfuckers think that just because someone is jewish means they support israels actions. news flash, they DONT.

have you even been on twitter to witness the threats actually happening? i have SEEN people be absolutely horrible to that man and send him death threats and harass him. but just because hes a white man you seem to think he just throws around that word to get sympathy. how is he gonna SEE any of the sympathy if he doesnt have any accounts to begin with?

and im not gonna pretend i wasnt pissed off at ae's shit episode delay, i was. i was infuriated that they thought one day was enough.

they heard us and changed it in the end didnt they? they listened to us and delayed it another week to make room for more awareness

of course at the time preferably not air it at all as it would act as a distraction from what was happen but ae is kinda going downhill so im not really surprised + the ableism thing has been going on for a while with the entire team and not just adam on his own (this is not defending him im mentally disabled myself so seeing him do this stuff is also harming towards me)

"blocked people who dared criticize him" because it resulted in him getting harassed. he unblocked them and apologised + put out a public apology about it later on (and it was well written might i add) since he had to step back and take a breather due to all the harassment he received

let me say this again.

NOT ALL JEWISH PEOPLE ARE ZIONISTS. ADAM DOESNT SHARE THE SAME VIEWS AS HIS MOTHER. LEAVE HIM AND HIS RELIGIONS BELIEFS ALONE.

the fact youre wishing actual DEATH on him makes you no better.

[sonnyinthesky]

So re: a few of my last posts (the ones about dropout) this is the important context.

I couldnt get a clear enough screenshot to share here, but i read the initial post. Apparently dropout made a statement condemning what is happen in Gaza (which is fine and agreeable) but then proceeded to say they do not hire zionists and will fire anyone who claims to be one (pretty much). Now a lot of people are saying they are purely condemning the genocide in Gaza and the Israeli government and supporters of those two things, but thats not it. While they are doing that, they are also saying they will fire anyone who claims to be a zionist. Now i will remind you of the definition of zionist and what most self proclaimed zionists will agree is the definition: zionism is the belief that Jewish people have the right to self-determination in their indigenous homeland (Israel). A zionist is a believer in zionism.

See the problem yet? A zionist doesnt mean "anyone who supports israel / is against palestine", in fact the two state solution is a zionist solution! A zionist is someone who believes in indigenous rights for Jewish people.

Another important thing to note here is: something like 90% of Jewish people are zionists, either by self-identification or by definition.

So, whats the problem with dropouts statement?

In a time where antisemitism is at major high, dropout came out and said they do not have any zionists on their team, they will not hire zionists, and if they have any on their team they will fire them. Remembering the definition and how 90% of Jews are zionists, you surely can see the problem, yes? Whether by intention or not, they said "fuck you" to the vast majority of Jewish people. They have made themselves known as unsafe to the majority of Jewish people.

They could have made their statement about Palestine without this. They could have simply said they condemn the actions of Israeli government and they are against the genocide in Gaza, and have said their staff do not support this / they do not endorse it. But instead they made it clear they either know nothing about zionism, or they do and they just dont give a fuck.

I would also like to point out their latest statement which pretty much says "people calling us out for our statement are evil and harassing us and putting our lives at risk" when in reality the "big bad people" are the Jew Hate Database and Stop Antisemitism. Now it is possible that they did receive direct threats from individuals, but their fans at least are really just calling out these two groups, as well as a few individuals here on tumblr who called out the statement.

Now am i asking you to hate dropout? To unsubscribe or boycott or whatever? No. I am simply bringing this to your attention so you can deduce things for yourself.

[akajustmerry]

i'm sorry you're getting rude asks in your inbox, but at risk of being another rude ask- fair or unfair, you understand that many people have been called zionists because they shared misinformation with good intentions or tried to clear up misconceptions even if it fit the wrong narrative? or they made a mistake with wording? there's a lot of jewish bloggers i know who have been pro-palestine since the start and were quickly called zionists anyway because they misspoke at some point. there were self-proclaimed antizionists, some indigenousto to other regions, on a zionist blocklkst spread around on here. one of my swana mutuals was called a zionist for making a similar post to yours, sobthis reminded me of that. I'm not trying to cheapen the word "zionist" in your inbox or anything, but I think it's been cheapened and/or misdefined for a while now. it doesnt just mean "bad person". you're easily one off the most pro-palestinian non-palestinian posters on this site, always sharing timely information, and you still got called one. I just think there's something wrong with that and it isn't right. I feel dumb saying "words have meanings" , but they do. for ex., it's kind of like calling every transmisogynist a terf when they're not even a feminist. we all want the same things so we shouldn't lose the plot. felt like that needed to be said and hopefully your inbox gets less weird.

yes absolutely! thank u for saying :) I understand where my mistake was, why it was harmful, and apologise sincerely. people have every right to be upset so I'm not making excuses, and folks have every right to unfollow me. when it comes to genocide, spreading misinformation however it was intended means life or death and I won't be making that mistake again. in the meantime, I'll keep trying to help as much as I can and be more considerate.

[eroticcannibal]

Hello, I was wondering about how to learn more about the subject matter of Zionism and the complexity of it as a term because your post about it interested me. For reference I'm not Jewish and I'm new to learning about it, though I'm staunchly against the genocide being committed against Palestinians by the Israeli government.

I've seen the way the term is used and I'm aware my information on the subject is limited, as is my personal stake in it as someone who is non-Jewish and non-Palestinian. When doing research on the subject of zionism as a historical movement, I find a lot of descriptions of it as a colonialist movement with the goal of developing an ethnostate. One sentence from the Wikipedia page on Zionism reads: "Zionist nationalism drew from a German ethnic-nationalist theory that people of common descent should seek separation and pursue the formation of their own state."

When thinking about forms of Zionism, and in relation to your post about it, what do you mean when talking about how it's a more complex issue than Zionism being bad inherently? Or is your belief more that people with Zionist beliefs should not be seen as inherently bad? I suppose I'm unsure how to conceptualize the idea of Zionism not having inherent issues if it is based on those ideas, though since I'm no historian, I'd like to learn more about the topic and complexities surrounding it.

Pre-emptively clarifying that you're under no obligation to reply, and that if I've said anything offensive, please let me know so I can learn, as that's not my intention. I'm also not trying to argue (people often think I am); I want to learn more about this topic, and I'd rather openly admit when I want to learn more rather than being performatively "educated". Thank you!

First of all thank you so much for being reasonable and curious about this

I will preface this with i am perpetually tired and a bit stupid and I dont always word things how I want to so everyone be patient and understanding especially on such a diversive topic. Ultimately everything I say is based on the view that genocide bad, peace good, people in power suck and normal people have more in common than they have differences.

Now I am not the person to go to for a proper explanation on the broadly accepted kinds of zionism and the history of it and how that feeds into the ideas around zionism that people believe *now*. Hopefully someone else can add something useful wrt that.

My experience is largely with individual zionists and their personal beliefs, motivations and actions, and what these people have made of zionism. I will also stress that I am not going to argue if zionism broadly, or any specific version of zionism, is right or wrong. I think it is a perfectly legitimate stance to argue that all forms of zionism may have inherent issues (show me an ideology that doesnt) and im certainly not informed enough to argue against that. (Maybe someone else can offer some input here). Not only is it fucking complicated, its something that does (in the case of "zionism that supports everything happening right now") and would (for any other form of zionism) affects so many different aspects of life for different groups with different priorities that I dont think anyone is going to come up with anything that everyone is happy with. (This is mostly just disclaimer for anyone pissing on the poor lol)

So when I say that zionism is too complex and broad a term to be viewed as inherently bad, I am talking about the specific nuances that individual zionists have with their beliefs. While not a zionist, I think what other tumblr users (typically those falsely accused of being zionists) said wrt being neither zionist nor antizionst helped it click in my mind how fuzzy the boundaries between these ideologies are, where you can explain your beliefs to a zionist and an anti zionist and both could think you are on "their side". Their is overlap in ideas, a state can exist in so many forms and ultimately the promise of israel to zionists is simply safety, that does not *have* to exist as a detriment to others.

I know zionists who just want to know they have somewhere to go if they need to. Others who value the Jewish claim to the area but not at the expense of palestinians who they believe also have a valid claim. I know others who *dont* believe palestinians have a valid claim but are not opposed to living alongside palestinians. Some support seperate states bordering each other due to fear of continued violence if everyone shared one state. Some simply do not see a way of dismantling Israel without the death of Israelis and non Israeli Jews who would otherwise flee there, so support the continued existance of Israel even if they are opposed to the idea of Israel. Some want to start over with something better. Some are ideologically zionist but think that everything that has happened so far has been done wrong and is doomed to failure. Some want a religious Jewish state and some only want to guarantee enough Jews in charge that it remains a haven for persecuted Jews. Some dont even want *that* and just seek a state in which some sort of constitution enshrines the right for Jews to seek safety regardless of who is actually in charge. And there are many, regardless of their particular flavour of zionism, who are educating, donating, protesting and doing direct action in support of palestinians. Very few genuinely believe that they will gain safety through genocide.

And of course with any broad ideology there will always be the extremists, those who do want palestinians dead. But this is far from representative of everyone.

But also while I wasn't explicitly trying to talk about it in that post, I do *also* think, even if someone is opposed to zionism in all its forms, it is important to not see zionists as inherently bad people. (To be clear, for this next bit i am strictly talking about the fears of Jewish zionists and their allies, not christian zionists or those weaponising zionism to support anti palestinian sentiment or antisemitism). Ultimately zionism comes from a place of cultural and current trauma. Much like I refuse to see someone with a general wariness or distrust of men due to trauma as a bad person unless they go full terf, I will not see a zionist as a bad person unless they are calling for genocide. Jews have every reason to fear for their safety and not trust any country other than Israel to protect them. History has shown that these fears are not unfounded. How can we expect Jews as a whole to reject zionism when so many feel it is their only hope for safety (especially when there is practically no talk of an alternative?) It is human to want yourself, your family and your community to be safe. I know that I would do far more than just hold a political belief, over far less than a proven history of my people being slaughtered, to protect far fewer than everyone I care about. As would most people.

(Slight tangent here but why this is so important to me is largely driven by my belief that understanding this is vital for peace so)

I also think it is simply not beneficial to palestinians to treat every zionist like their beliefs make them an inherently bad person. It further polarises things when you tell people that wanting safety means they support the very worst version of their ideology which makes them easier to radicalised because you strip them of any more moderate community support (again to make the terf analogy, they use the "if you are critical of men you are spouting terf ideology" shit as a way to recruit traumatised people), all this feeds into people pushing ideas like "all Jews must be zionists (for their own safety because no one else cares)" and therefore "all Jews are bad (because they are all zionists and zionists must support genocide)", creating that kind of fear will only lead to Israelis and palestinians being more fearful of and more radicalised against each other, which just fuels and supports violence. Us vs them has always been an effective method of radicalising people towards violence and supporting the violence a state commits. And like. Thats something that innocent normal people always lose on both sides and that only benefits people in power.

I genuinely believe that an effective way forward is to support peaceful zionism that addresses the trauma and legitimate fears that have led to zionism as an alternative for radicalised zionists (and more realistic than trying to push them towards anti zionism) but that cannot happen while all of zionism is seen as inherently genocidal.

(Also just to touch on christian zionism and the weaponising of zionism briefly, I think it does a disservice to the discussion when people do not distinguish between these and Jewish and Jewish supportive zionism. So much of the discourse around zionism, either explicitly or implicitly, targets Jewish zionism, when so much of what feeds the violence and especially financial and logistical support of violence is these other zionsims. There are more christian zionists specifically in the US alone than there are Jews in the world. And honestly it just kind of feels very wrong that these kinds of zionism get conflated to the detriment of Jews as a whole, when Christian zionism is motivated by the desire to harm Jews and weaponised zionism seeks to harm both sides.)

Anyway I hope I've addressed your questions properly (I struggle with long asks and long responses because memory issues and I have to keep scrolling up and down to reread anything). Feel free to re ask anything I missed or ask for clarification, hope I did not ramble too much on tangents. Its just one of those topics where you talk about one thing and you have to talk about everything else that connects to it.

And everyone else please be normal about this. Ultimately everyone involved in this conversation opposes genocide and supports peace, and I do not make my space welcoming to people who believe otherwise, so we can be civil and nuanced about this.