#it's the ludinus essay

[edelgarfield]

god damn it all this Aeor and Calamity lore has me liking Ludinus a lot more than I ever wanted to. I find him so fascinating and compelling as a villain, in the way that he reflects a lot of my favorite characters' flaws particularly from CR2, but CR3 in Bell's Hells at times self-defeating pursuit of power in order to win.

I'm thinking abt a couple quotes from Essek, bc he & Ludinus obviously have so much in common. By Essek's own admission, it was his inability to trust people that made his pursuit of knowledge at the cost of others so appealing, that made him lose sight of the hurt he was causing

In particular the second quote: feeling personally responsible for doing something because of your inability to trust anyone else. I think that encompasses Ludinus's ideology & motivation so well.

The idea of longevity/immortality being a barrier to intimacy is something that gets talked about with respect to elves a lot, and I think Ludinus encompasses that to its logical extreme. Ludinus is one of the last survivors who actually lived on Exandria during the Calamity. Most elves actually fucked off to the Feywild and didn't return until long after the fighting was over. Given Ludinus was a child when Aeor fell, I would assume that means his parents chose to stay on Exandria & he was born afterwards. (Which if that's the case, adds another layer to his resistance against the gods bc he was doomed to live through the war on the surface of Exandria bc of a choice his parents made before he was born.)

All the elves born at the tail end of the Calamity are dead by now, Ludinus lived at least 160ish years of it, and most of the elves born around that time would have been in the Feywild and wouldn't have the experience of seeing what happened to the world. Everyone else who survived the Calamity would have died hundreds of years ago, not to mention that only a third of the population even survived it in the first place. The thing that's saved the PCs (& Essek) time and time again is their bonds with others, having other people to support them & remind them that all the power in the world means nothing if you lose yourself in its pursuit, that there are good things in this world worth living for.

Anyone that might have had the chance to sway Ludinus from his path is long dead, either from the Calamity or old age. Liliana seems to be the only person he feels close to, but they're both bonded through their shared cause. Even other elves, the people with the longest memories, don't understand what living through the Calamity was like. They weren't there.

I know it was mostly a joke when Laudna suggested Ludinus go to therapy, but at the same time where would he go? One of the things that helps PTSD is a sense of community, feeling like there are other people who share your experience, but there isn't anyone that shares Ludinus's experience (Not to mention anything resembling a therapist on Exandria would most likely draw power from a deity, which Ludinus is understandably opposed to).

That sense of isolation is something that comes up again & again among CR PCs. CR2 is the most obvious, but it's something plenty of the CR3 characters have been through as well. Ludinus would have been alone in his trauma for hundreds of years. That's completely incomprehensible to us. He would have watched the world move on and forget something that's so deeply affected him. Any attempt to confide in someone about his anger & pain would often be met with "this is punishment for our hubris" "the gods love us" "don't question their will." The very, very few allies he had would die out over the years until one day he's the last and he would be the last for centuries more. I feel like that sense of isolation, feeling removed from the world, bottling up centuries' worth of emotion would make anyone numb. he withdraws further and further into himself bc he doesn't belong. he works for centuries at removing the gods, becoming more and more desperate as he grows older, without anyone else to provide perspective as his plans grow more and more ruthless. (i also have a theory that this loneliness is part of what makes him sympathetic to predathos but that's a separate post)

Given his age & being the last survivor of the Calamity, I think it's nearly impossible for him to connect with other people. The only thing that gives him any sense of connection or community is his crusade against the gods; he only feels connected to others through their shared pain & anger, which never allow him to move past it. He can't trust anyone bc no one else understands what the gods are capable of like he does, nobody else understands what's at stake. He's the only person remaining who does, which means he's the only one who can do what he believes needs to be done.

There's a sense of duty. He needs to eliminate the gods because he doesn't trust the future inhabitants of Exandria to be able to protect their world. He owes it to all those who've been trampled on by the gods to do what they no longer can. I think he genuinely cares about mortals & he wants to defend them from a threat that he believes only he can see, but I think he cares far more about the thousands of dead he carries on his back than anyone alive. He can't simply live a happy life bc everything that once made his life worth living is gone. He can't let go of that pain & anger and move forward. His trauma is what gives him purpose and meaning; healing from it would be a betrayal to all the people that have suffered beneath the gods.

I don't think he's wrong about the gods, but I think he's seeking freedom from the gods' control, not realizing that he's letting himself be controlled by the dead. I think it's been a very long time since he spared a thought towards actually living. Bell's Hells keeps accusing him of wanting to take the place of the gods, or wanting to be seen as a messiah, but I truly don't think that's it. I don't think he cares about what comes after, if he's even thought about it at all. I don't even think he wants to be a martyr. His goal has never been for him to live in a free world, it's to ensure that there will be a world after he's gone, forever. he thinks if he dies without securing that future, he'll have failed Exandria & all the souls that have ever lived on it.

He's been completely ruthless in his pursuit of power because to him, he is fighting for Exandria's survival. That's exactly the trap BH has fallen into in the past, pursuing power even when it hurts themselves & their friends, losing sight of the actual people they claim to be protecting. Ludinus surrounds himself with terrible people; Otohan and Trent to name two, bc he wants the power they hold without getting his hands dirty himself. but in doing so he immediately removes any possibility of emotional intimacy. the people he works with don't trust him & he doesn't trust them. the one exception is Liliana & unfortunately I think she just met him far too late.

so much of CR is about the importance of feeling connected to other people, how those connections remind us of what's truly important, and keep us grounded, how when we begin to lose sight of ourselves, it's those we're close to that remind us. I think of Caleb & Essek, they both had goals they wanted to pursue, but in finding a place to belong realized those goals wouldn't actually make them happy. Ludinus doesn't want to be happy, he wants to have a purpose, and I know I'm a bleeding heart, but I think there is something incredibly tragic in someone who can't even imagine what it would be like to live a happy life.

I think of Fjord & Percy & Imogen & Laudna & Dorian, people who nearly lost themselves in pursuit of power, but chose to turn away because living for their friends was more important that dying for the world. Ludinus is the pendulum swinging in the other direction. It's incredibly tragic bc imo his intentions are genuinely good; he's arrogant and selfish and ruthless but i think he truly does want to protect Exandria.

I think there was a point in the past where someone could have reached him & he could have chosen a different path. i don't even think he would have necessarily had to give up his goal of removing the gods. if he had other people working alongside him instead of under him, who knows what he could've come up with? if he had people to pass the torch onto once he was gone, maybe he would feel like there was time to come up with a solution besides Predathos.

But he doesn't and he can't trust anyone bc no one else believes in his cause as fervently as he does. he can't trust anyone else to make the sacrifices he's willing to make so he never tries. He denies himself the aid & perspective & closeness that comes with trusting someone and becomes further and further entrenched in his mission to remove the gods at any cost. He's the only one alive left to remember the trauma of the Calamity: he has to carry all of it because no one else can.

[helimir]

Some top tier Caduceus quotes I've been thinking about in these Downfall times. Something about how so much of Ludinus' position seems to rest on revenge. Showing Bells Hells the squabbling of the gods as they debate what to do about Aeor, and asking 'You can just watch bad people get away with it?'

It doesn't matter if the gods were wrong for their choices. Killing them won't bring back Aeor and it won't stop the violence that Ludinus and the Ruby Vanguard have visited on the world. I just don't see what it's for.

[danwhobrowses]

So there was a Callowmoore question on 4SD which has got people talking and since nobody will ask me about it I'm gonna get it out of my brain anyway.

For someone on 4SD as frequently as Taliesin, Callowmoore questions are rare and I think that partly comes from us fans not wanting to try and steer him but also because his answers tend to be complicated. He's quite plain with other stuff, but a lot also gets offered into interpretation when it comes to Ashton and Fearne.

And granted, we Callowmoores would love for him to pull a Liam and just up and say Ashton has feelings for her, but I think we all know that's not Tal's way; aside from the nuggets of wisdom, killer one-liners and unique homebrews, we tend to love Tal's characters for their actions and expressions, some of which subtle and rewarding to those paying attention. For this reason I have had to mull over this one minute answer for most of my day and figure out what I think he means by it, like blue curtains in a book.

To note though, 'I think' is the operative term, but I also don't believe that Tal has left Callowmoore better or worse by his response.

One of the interesting things I want to point out is that my interpretations are observing the divide between Taliesin's words and his roleplaying; it is not to say that Tal is being dishonest in his answers, but I also see it as the answers are what Ashton thinks and his roleplay is how they feel.

So no, Ashton isn't 'precious' about Fearne wandering off when sleeping beside each other, if she said no or came back safely it wouldn't have bothered them, and it's fair for Ashton to have preferred Fearne to have woke them up. And yet that doesn't deny the reaction Ashton had waking up to find her gone and fearing that she's in danger, and not there to help her; the panic, the anger, the impatience are all clear and instinctive reactions Ashton is having that imply that her being with them is important. They're not precious about Fearne waking up and leaving the bed before they wake, and yet they'll still smile upon waking and finding that she's still there.

The 'Adventurers with Benefits' is one of two comments I can see being used maliciously against shippers, but it's worth reminding that on the last Callowmoore question Tal was asked, he mentioned that Ashton doesn't believe that someone would love them. Ashton feels unlovable, and yet they still ask for intimacy with Fearne, leaning further into their connection but also not pressuring her into commitment. It's also worth pointing out that this is still a slow burn, even Jester questioned whether her feelings for Fjord were legitimate or a romanticized fantasy at one point, and Ashton is not privy to Fearne's feelings for them. Ashton frames it as Adventurers with Benefits because they don't allow themselves to entertain the idea of Fearne reciprocating feelings for them, and yet their impulse to kiss her before absorbing the shard, to frequently engage in physical contact at a growing rate, to playfully steal and share each other's clothing, the desire to defend her from harm or anyone that might have ulterior motives, and to willingly do anything and everything just for her to smile in their direction again, that paints more of a picture than just benefits.

Which finally gets us to Ashton's theory of love. Tal mentions that Ashton believes that love is 'wanting to trust somebody, but not trusting them'. Immediately: No, haters, I don't think this means Ashton doesn't trust Fearne, nor do I think it means that Ashton trusts Fearne so they don't love her. Ashton trusts all the Hells (well, maybe not Braius since they just met), but Fearne is special to them in a different way, they've already platonically said that they loved her when they first were using their titan forms. In addition, this could be an elaboration of the last time Tal brought up Ashton's opinion of Love on the post-shard Callowmoore question: 'love is ignorance and adorableness'. This is another thing that can develop, elaborate and/or change over time, but at the current moment Ashton's interpretation of love can come from environment; Imogen wants to trust Laudna but can't wholly trust her given Delilah, but even Ashton can see that they love each other. Tal also mentioned that Ashton is not very experienced in relationships - which kinda plays into my belief that Ashton and Fearne, while have had relationships, haven't had deep romantic feelings or proper intimacy before, which makes them discovering it with each other more special - so their understanding of love can only exist on what they assume it's like.

And yet what if you reworded the phrase in the same spirit? 'Love is trusting someone wholeheartedly even with nothing to reassure it', there have been many a time something looked to go south and faith was put in another anyway; the shard may be a bad example because it did go wrong but even though the red flags were there Ashton upon completing the process said 'thank you for trusting me', when Fearne took the shard Ashton was a bag full of panic their experience meant they couldn't trust that the shard wouldn't be just as bad for Fearne, and yet they still wanted to trust that Fearne would succeed. Ashton couldn't trust that whenever Fearne was wild shaped, cornered by Otohan, or taken away by Ira on Ruidus that she'd come back safe, and yet still wanted to trust that she would, Ashton couldn't confirm that Fearne wasn't a Doppelganger in Nanna Mori's trust trial - even when FCG and Imogen suspected it was her - and yet they still wanted to trust that it was her. Ashton's view on love may not be entirely right but it's not entirely wrong either, what is blind faith if not ignorant and adorable? Even with their interpretation, Ashton has put plenty of faith in Fearne even when the risk was high.

In conclusion, Ashton's behaviour towards Fearne do often imply a complexity rather than a discrepancy to Tal's 4SD statements, that maybe Ashton's emotions and subconscious are not in sync with their self-doubt driven thoughts, perhaps it is the way Ashton tempers their feelings to try and not get hurt by them or cause Fearne to get hurt by them again. Ashton's apology to her post-shard made a point of noting how she means a lot to them, and how hurting her was one of the worst things they have done, and as they work towards self-improvement and self-discovery, there will likely be a point where self-realisation comes into play too, and they can understand why what they're thinking differs to how they're feeling.

Again, this is all interpretation, speculation and observation, one that like the core statements doesn't add or subtract but fills in some gaps either way. Ashton's feelings are a complicated matter, which is likely why Tal entices and creates such speculation with a complicated answer. Right now Ashton clearly does care for Fearne and share a special relationship that's regrowing after suffering tension, loss and fear, blooming back into trust, joy and comfort, but save 5 Disney Greek Muses backing him up in a Gospel song they're not just gonna out and say they're in love

And Yet...

[pyrotechnicdarts]

CR just isn’t doing arcs this time. And that’s okay! I wish ppl would reframe their expectations and try new stuff. You say you want new but this IS new. It’s just different from what you expected. So maybe you want more of the same actually?

Genuinely not trying to be catty. Sending anon cuz I’m worried you’ll take it that way no matter what. This campaign has had mostly one big arc the entire time. The red moon looking in through the curtains in Shindonahs (idk how to spell lol) apartment in the very beginning. They’re trying something new. There isn’t gonna be a new “arc”’. It isn’t sandbox. It’s a more linear direct big picture story and you either like that or not! Totally fair either way. But personally IMMM tired of ppl comparing cr to previous campaigns and getting upset they’re not just copy pasting what they’ve already done. I love that they take risks. I wish more ppl did. ❤️

for clarification when i said i need to get into other shows, i meant in addition to cr, bc atm cr is the only one im actively watching

i never said i didnt like the lack of distinct arcs. i said watching 400+ hours over the course of 2 real time years of the same plot thread progressing extremely slowly because the characters keep wasting time having the same pointless argument over and over, even after agreeing that the argument is pointless and time-wasting, is a little tedious.

i will admit that post largely happened bc i needed to vent because of some shitty interactions with twitter cr fans earlier that day and how this plotline makes people have godawful takes but im still allowed to have an opinion on my own personal blog? that post wasnt even maintagged

[ariadne-mouse]

Ludinus, fuming through the 4th wall: SEE I couldn't have KNOWN about the moon back door because this apparent god "Matthew Mercer" MADE IT UP on the fly in the 11th hour of my plans. This is yet another example of the gods having too much power. In this essay I will-

[ludinusdaleth]

i have a longer essay in my head about how ludinus, with his own fully developed self, is also able to mirror every single protagonist of the series. and in this particular instance im thinking on this parralel. pale, white haired, rich men. gold and blue. a bad hand, legs that need a cane. men of industry. in the same damn pose - one hand on help (that can still hurt), the other ready to fire. percy is that concept made manifest through attempting redemption. ludinus has leaned into its destruction and the need for a weapon to shatter who he seeks vengeance against.

[dumpster-fire-sapphic-failgirl]

“Ludinus is vulnerable to Smash Mouth damage”

- Matt during CR Cooldown for e95

“Smashmouth is slang for eating a girl out”

- The Smashmouth guy when DJ Khaled talked about not ever going down

Therefore, there is no more powerful member of the Bells Hells than Imogen, and in this essay….

[utilitycaster]

listened to RCCC finally! the very noncomprehensive and subjective new info. Under the cut because it's very long:

Matt's both excited and terrified for the potential this campaign to really deconstruct what came before and it does sound like he is unsure what precisely to expect

Everyone is excited for more of the Shattered Teeth; Taliesin holding out for the moon as "favorite landmass"

Ashley could go even harder with Fearne's chaos and the cast encourages her to do so

Sam really loved FCG and FRIDA's relationship and he and Christian texted about it a lot during that arc! (Christian throws some credit to Aabria's encouragement)

Unsure if FRIDA is a werewolf

Ruidus "noticed" Chetney and Matt has more to reveal...

Because Ashton's rage was heavily directed towards that lack of knowledge about their past they are clinging very hard to the reveal of the Titan of Blood and what that might mean (also, fun talk about Taliesin's theme of Holes In The Past); it's also giving them a sense of feeling robbed.

Marisha really loves how Orym has built upon the Ashari lore; Liam loved seeing Orym's family, which was very important since Orym's childhood was, unlike Vax and Caleb's, a happy one with an extended family

History of Shattered Teeth was heavily influenced by the collaboration with Brennan for EXU Calamity

Imogen spent a long time thinking Liliana would have her back and feels extremely abandoned; she loves her powers and doesn't want to lose them, but doesn't see another option given the harm of the Vanguard.

Fearne is not worried about being Ruidusborn, as she is perfect :)

Chet long rest rolls are, as we know, real. The cast (Travis included) think this is hilarious. Travis does NOT have a backup character. Matt points out that they should uh, probably do that. Liam jokes maybe Bertrand will come back instead.

The duality of aeormaton; FCG defeating Shithead and within a day asking the creatures on Slival to shit on him. Matt regrets this worldbuilding detail; the cast does not.

Orym is an exploration, in a way, of imposter syndrome; he feels responsible but does not feel like he is the right guy for the job. Marisha notes that Liam's vision for Orym was very much as a sidekick, but then found the group was all somewhat conceptualized as go with the flow.

Taliesin's favorite rage is Time, but Space is also fun. Liam loves the immovable rod in the hammer; Matt also does.

Travis is the best and good things come to him; he enjoyed Graz'tchar a lot for the brief time he had it, but also thinks it's way better to give the sword to Novos and see what happens.

Ashley wanted to snoop in the captain's quarters and did not intend to seduce him but he wouldn't leave, and so. Fearne did get a boon with the HP reduction, but it's a secret for now. (Christian adds that FRIDA getting to be there for a Fearne theft was an honor)

Marisha's notes are copious but as a result they are 10% useful, 90% "WE SHOULD CUT OFF LUDINUS'S HEAD." [which to be fair is imo useful]. Sam points out there's a lot of lore. They shout out Dani.

Sam jokes sarcastically about seeing his past characters when the cast at large is asked (Marisha, Liam, and Taliesin all answer but it's mostly the same as when they've talked about it on 4sd).

The cast is busy and have not seen a ton of other shows lately but Sam does confirm he recently watched Jury Duty; Marisha and Matt like watching creepy movies and video essays together.

I feel they should uh...screen mental health related questions a bit harder; it's not that it's not important but I get the sense it's really difficult for the cast to answer to a live mic when they're here to talk about d&d.

Who would they swap character sheets with in Bells Hells: Travis and Marisha would both be Ashton, Taliesin would be Chetney, Ashley would be Laudna or FCG, Sam would be Fearne, Liam would be Laudna, Laura would be Fearne.

Sam has no dice superstitions. Laura disputes this; Sam will put dice in jail if they roll too poorly.

Voodoo donuts has dick donuts, to Laura's great joy. [I will say I suspect the reason they are going to RCCC is that LA to Oregon is an easier trip than to the east coast. also I cannot tell which cast member (or possibly Christian) said "I want a dick" but yes, much like Laura, I did laugh.]

Someone asks about the Titan Blood idea because they also have this concept in their campaign! Matt says that this made sense given that Ashton was transformed to a Genasi as part of his backstory.

An impulse that Ashley didn't follow through on was setting the Omen Archive on fire; she thinks it could have gone very badly and Matt confirms he did have a battle map ready

Has Vex seen the bug? YES (Laura tells the story in Vex's voice; Liam interrupts as Vax; Matt interrupts as Trinket)

How have your characters affected your worldview? Taliesin jokes it's therapy; Laura says it helps you empathize with people around you by pretending to be someone very different than yourself. Matt agrees that it's a reminder to treat everyone as individuals. Liam especially notes that Caleb taught him to accept the challenges within life without trying to escape them. Marisha encourages a self-insert to start, but to branch out after that. Travis says anyone of any age can have an adventure.

[rainbowcaleb]

*taps the mic* Ludinus is just an evil Gale, in this essay I will explain—

[tunedtostatic]

I've been rifling through my rewatch thoughts about Astrid all day and I was going to make a joke about "no one needs me to contribute a post about Astrid being an interesting depiction of a victim of abuse when it has been written about" but fuck it, no such thing as too much Astrid, in this essay I will. I think if you ask "What makes Astrid compelling," most people will indeed say something about her being a depiction of many years of abuse, especially since she's a bad victim (in the sense of being too compliant with her abuser, not being too loud and crazy).

Part of what makes her a compelling depiction of someone who has been abused for many years is the way Mercer portrays her ability to think multiple things at one. It's not a binary where the way Trent messed with her head didn't work and she's secretly a good guy, or she's evil without his coercion and believes everything she says about protecting the Empire. She's just having to do what people in abusive situations do, and keep multiple levels of thought and consciousness going at once, feeling some degree of support for Trent in part of her mind while knowing what's happening in another part.

When Caleb shows up at Astrid's house, she's been trapped by their abuser for nearly twenty years. She tortures and murders for the Dwendalian Empire and she both does and doesn't know that what she does as a scourger is horrific. She tells Caleb that she thinks of the faces of the people she's killed and laments, and in the same conversation she tells him that what she does prevents terrible things from happening and protects innocent people like they used to be. She conveys to him that she wants to kill Trent. She conveys to him that she wants to take Trent's place.

Being a d&d wizard is about knowledge. The wizard plotlines in cr2 are epistemic, focused on what can be known, remembered, realized and discovered: Trent and the scourgers, Vess and the ancient knowledge she uses Lucien to try to harness, Essek, and even Yussa and his focus on Who You Know.

Many popular narratives of abuse are also about knowledge. "Knowing" is conflated with "escaping:" the abuse victim is too naive to realize they are being abused, and if they had that knowledge, surely their next step would be escape. Surely abuse is a fluke, and a strong person will always be able to get away.

"A Volstrucker has never disentangled from Trent before. No one who knows what he does, how he breaks us, has shared their trauma with the world. With the king. Imagine the threat you are to him now that you carry respect of both crown and Kryn. So yes, he's invested."

Astrid knows. She knows the nature of what Trent has done to them. She knows what outsiders would think about Trent's abuse if they were to hear about it from someone they respect. The knowledge alone is not enough to save her.

The horrific abuse of the scourgers is administrated by Trent but enabled by their world. Margolin sends the Blumendrei to Trent. Their professors ignore the bandages on their arms. Ludinus is looking the other way. If a powerful "good" person were to know what Trent has done, that would also mean knowing what his scourgers have done, and who, they must wonder, would be willing to help them then?

Astrid knows she does not have the recourse of that respect from the Crown. She knows she does not have powerful allies to protect her from Trent if she were to run away. At their first meeting, all it takes is for Caleb to express open anger at their abuser - and accuse her of not understanding what he does - for her to tell him her own recourse.

LIAM: "I, um…I'm sorry. I will…never forget what we were. And…even now, all these years later, I can't shake it, I still, care a great deal…about you. At least…the girl I knew. But…he has blinded you. You and Wulf and all of his little helpers. And I mourn our childhood, and our souls." MATT: She reaches up, puts her hand on your knee. "I understand your anger. And as much as…he's been our teacher, he's not infallible. He's just an old man, with the right connections, who will one day pass, like they all do." LIAM: "You always were ambitious." MATT: "So are you, apparently, Bren. Like I said. I'm proud of you."

Her frame of reference for Bren is "also ambitious, also a victim," and she trusts him to understand how ambition and safety are the same thing for her. Astrid's hell and Caleb's hell have been so different for the last decade and a half that he misreads the situation in a single line - you always were ambitious - and throws her under the bus at the dinner party, taking her ambition as a cue to see her as less endangered, or less salvageable.

Both their horrible wizard goals - turning back time or becoming an archmage of the Cerberus Assembly - are the multiple of power as safety. Caleb hasn't realized that his own desire to bend reality to his will to save his parents is hubris, so he can't do the math backwards and realize that Astrid's ambition is {her way of saving Eadwulf and herself; her own way of responding to the death of her parents; a desire for magic and power that is inseparable from both of those things}. Like...it's open to interpretation, but I think the answer to "Does Astrid also have evil unsympathetic ignoble desire for power?" is that "also" isn't the right word. Power is magic is safety is a reward for her suffering, and Astrid's ambition, like everything else in her life, means many things at once.

Trent chose to abuse the scourgers and their world chose to let him. Astrid survives Trent for over a decade and a half, helps the Mighty Nein, and saves them in Nicodranas. For Caleb? As a maneuver to save herself? That also might be a question with more than one answer. I don't have a conclusion to this other than hats off to this coerced evil wizard for being an interesting depiction of strength in extremis, figuring out how to know multiple things at once when even her magic isn't her own and hang on all that time.

[danwhobrowses]

Since it's being brought up a bit again - at least from what I've seen - in the Critical Role fandom I'm just gonna vent some stuff about C3 mainly regarding the indecision of the god stuff. I will point out beforehand however that I still really enjoy C3, I love the characters, I like getting lore even from the gods and there's been a lot of great moments, but there are of course frustrations as there has likely been with every campaign

Spoilers just in case, up to 109 and a small 10th Oct 4SD mention

Okay so, the whole god stuff has been done a lot this campaign. I understand why Matt pushed it because it is a grand scale situation where a 'right answer' can differ from person to person, and I'm fine with the fact that there are members of the Hells who don't like the gods, because it's realistic that people who grew up differently would feel differently about these kinds of topics. But with us nearing 110 episodes, I am frustrated with how we're continually entertaining the idea of just doing Ludinus' plan after killing him, mainly in order to chase the pantheon away whether they want to leave or not, we've done the 'Is Ludinus right?' 'No he should be stopped' loop a lot of times now, to me this is just another flavour of that and while we have seen the gods do some shady stuff, I still don't buy the idea that them leaving will fix anything, let alone using a god eater entity to do it.

What frustrates me currently about this is that the Hells seem quite in unison that Ludinus should be stopped, they won't sacrifice one another, and that the gods shouldn't die, but for some reason these three valid points don't get focused on when deliberating the presented options of releasing Predathos. On 4SD Robbie got struck by a moment of clarity when asked how Dorian - notably on the anti-God side of things - feels about potentially sacrificing his friends Fearne and/or Imogen in an effort to make them - despite their preference to not be - a vessel of Predathos, and while it's perfectly fine that they suddenly realised this it does show that the majority of the Hells are experiencing a bit of tunnel vision and focusing on their ideal outcome rather than a compromise they can all unite on. It's not that it's bad to try and unearth more information about the unknown factors, but his reaction makes it apparent that the right questions still aren't being asked to the group;

"Are you willing to sacrifice Fearne and/or Imogen?"

"Are you okay with being just as bad as Ludinus and Zathuda by doing what they plan(ned) to do?"

"Is this what FCG sacrificed himself for?"

If any of the Hells - minus Braius since he doesn't know the group so well - would answer Yes to these I'd be shocked and honestly feel a little betrayed, because it's not in any of their established characters to do that. Believing that they'd answer No to all however bodes the question of why we're even considering releasing Predathos?

The whole plan has so many reasons it should've been shut down already, which is why I personally don't enjoy them talking about it as an option; not just because of the many unknown factors regarding vessels and Predathos, or the fact that Orym and Imogen know just how all-consuming Predathos' pull is, or because it'd mean betraying their allies in the Accords, or because it means risking one or two of their own, or because there's no plan for what comes after by any party, or because we've seen how at the mercy of Predathos' power all Ruidusborns have been both at the Key and on Ruidus itself, or even that the Matron's suggestion that Love - which while unlimited in individual willpower is not omnipotent - will allow the Vessel to subdue Predathos is a limp argument because unlike the previous Death God who allowed the Matron to usurp them Predathos very clearly doesn't want to be contained. All those reasons should've killed the idea anyway but one of the big and more personal reasons the Hells shouldn't be doing it is because releasing Predathos would vindicate Ludinus. All the horrible things he's done and all the people who he has let die all for the plan, the very things the Hells have tried to hold him responsible for would be justified by completing his plan, regardless of whether he lives to see it. Plus the encounter with the Matron once again reiterates that there will be gods who won't run, that some will choose oblivion fighting for this world over abandoning it. Since the Hells don't want the gods to die - including Ashton and Dorian, who want them to leave or at the least be accountable for their actions - releasing Predathos should be nixed here too. As a last resort it is valid but only as a last resort, when all better options - and that is a long list - have failed.

I understand that the table enjoy tough decisions and conflict, and that the majority of them are not in the same mind as the characters they are playing when it comes to the gods, and to reiterate the God lore has been juicy - I loved Downfall - but we are over two thirds through the usual lifespan of a campaign now and the group isn't even locked in on what they should do! I know others want it but I don't believe that a big PVP or an argumentative shouting contest is needed so close to the final arc either, it'd only risk breaking the group apart at a key moment, but at the same time it does need to be addressed to find a point of unison again, and discuss what outcome the characters can live with - what can be abided and compromised on and what cannot.

Matt has been vague with a lot of things this campaign and while in some cases that provides wiggle room for autonomy, exploration and creativity, it also means that when the god topic comes about we tend to go in circles, because everything is still vague and unclear. It doesn't help either that the way Matt has crafted god encounters so far have the ones who want to fight for Exandria either not contacting the Hells - seriously the Stormlord must be frothing to speak with Imogen right? How much more fighting does she need to do? - or in the Wildmother's case are only speaking to people they know won't argue or debate with them. It's kinda apparent that no god so far is truly humbling themselves right now; even the Matron and Arch Heart felt the need to test the Hells before presenting their stance on the situation to them, which is equally frustrating given that they need their help - plus given how the two are conspiring against the others, and Asmodeus is trying to deceive Braius, not even the gods are in unison about an end goal...but still have the audacity to let Lolth rip through Opal's memories and personality and kill Cyrus for the sake of maintaining their truce.

It is easy to point fingers from this side of the fence though, Matt is but one man and he has taken on a massive social and theological argument upon his shoulders which hits very close to home for many communities, but while there is intrigue on what the solution could be it does at times feel like we're pushing only the bad options. For instance, before the Arch Heart visit the plan seemed to be set that we stop Predathos from being unleashed, the Hells were content with it and we got all parties present in Vassalheim to agree to it too. This felt like and still feels like the best course of action because it achieves all 3 united points the Hells have while also preventing more needless bloodshed and establishing diplomatic relations with the now liberated people of Ruidus, it's not easy but it's the path of least unknowns, so why doesn't it feel like it's the prioritized plan anymore? Gods like the Arch Heart don't need Predathos to leave, it's just an excuse they're weaponizing to force the others to be as cowardly as them while also avoiding accountability as Predathos and whoever releases them are left with the blame. But, providing that Predathos remains sealed and new measures are put in place to perhaps further confine and banish it so a repeat doesn't occur, there's no stopping them from just stepping down, passing on their domain to another or simply releasing it back to where it initially came from, while also just chilling in a place close to their family - that still feels like it's possible. But at the same time, their followers are owed an explanation, whether the gods want to stay or leave they should be held accountable for their position and current stance, as well as their absence and/or selfishness, and they can't expect to just run or hide away from criticism for making such a call. Whatever the outcome Exandria cannot go back to how it was, the events of C3 has shaken Exandria to its very core and a new paradigm and direction will need to be taken to create a better tomorrow both mortals and gods alike envision for it, but you can't rebuild or improve things by being absent or by holding a gun to someone else's head, and it can't do either if nobody can agree on anything. Indecision and division has allowed Ludinus to get this far, even when that was spelled out everyone still seems to be falling for that same trap, which is why it taking so long to reach a decision grows more concerning the closer we get to having to fight him on Ruidus one last time.

On top of all this, the indecision isn't the be all and end all to the plot as a whole, deciding on a path doesn't mean the path will not have obstacles or go exactly to plan (when has it ever?) it just means you know where your A to B is, if the Hells decide on what path they take there is still an absolute wealth of things outside of Ruidus still needing to be done too; amassing allies not currently at Vassalheim, saving Ryn wherever they are, getting some more relics, dealing with all the magical items we have to see what to use/sell/absorb, getting to the bottom of the people who were trying to capture Chetney, PopCon, telling FRIDA, Dancer, D, Milo and Joe about FCG's death, laying FCG's remains to rest since most of him is still in the bag of holding, Ashton lore in general (they passed their last Path feature level wise so we'd need a new avenue for them to get Luxon/Dunamancy lore, also can they and Fearne talk to their titan shards for Titan lore? They helped seal Predathos too, is there more to tell about their family or the Hishari? Ashton feels like a gold mine or lore that often stays untapped), Chetney/Orym paternity test, Orym owning up to what his deal with Nana was, potential follow-up stuff with the Kryn or the Unseelie (or just Yu, if we can pry them from Ghosting in Yotei), plus all the previously imprisoned criminals and monsters let loose unto the world by the solstice's undoing of magical seals.

I trust Matt and the players, and I acknowledge that their entertainment is the priority over mine as a spectator, but I'd be lying if pretended I wasn't irritated by this stuff, especially with so much exciting and creative things left that we can do that isn't going back to the 'Is Ludinus right?' argument for the umpteenth time.

[ludinusdaleth]

hey, i'm new to cr fandom and wasn't there when c2 was airing, may i ask out of curiosity what was the fandom's problem with its ending?

i want to start by saying this post is meant as a personal memory and not an incitement of any discourse. i do not want a lot of asks or replies or anything about this if i can help it. i would also politely ask that no one reblog this as i really just. dont want attention about this when ive discussed it to death on twitter. i also apologize for not having screenshots but i truly cannot bring myself to wade through that again. it was bad enough i still have nightmares about it.

basically, about 3 eps before c2's end, matt clarified on twitter the campaign was coming to a close, and that. did not go well. you see, folk (myself included, though i wasnt part of the following clown show) were very sure c2 would continue a while. it felt unfinished as the empire/trent had to be taken down, and for some of us ludinus was clearly the big bad, etc. so this was incredibly jarring to a lot of folk. and with that came anger. a lot of critique came down to fear of things being rushed, a lack of closure, claims of extreme neoliberialism due to not taking down the empire (i could write an essay on and cite multiple leftist activists who have stated c2 is truthful to the activist tale, not neoliberalism, and also how c3 deconstructs beau & caleb's actions, but everyone is allowed to have their own opinion on it), and that if shadowgast did not fuck in this short timespan the fans were going to kill liam & matt. and threats of killing were the least of what ensued. im just gonna put a tw here for discussion of extreme harrassment and even threat of necrophilia/rape:

people were. atrocious. beyond atrocious. know why 4sd/a lot of q&a events of theirs for a while had no fan questions? partially bc fans were frankly terrible at asking non-ship questions on talks machina, but mainly because folk FILLED their inboxes with insults (and a twitter account was made of screenshots bragging about it) that only the crew would get to filter out, not the cast. know why dani was terrified to show her face on 4sd for a bit? c2 fans would not let up on how it was her cishet fault fjorjester happened. people thought the solution to alleged neoliberalism was to therefore @ travis saying they would defile his veteran fathers corpse. if there was any solid discussion critiquing c2 happening, it was so drowned that actors who had nothing to do with the show told cr fans to stay away if that was how they treated their favorite creators wanting a break. it really didnt help that a certain disgraced talks machina host was firing potshots on twitter when the cast seemed to be just trying to take it all in, so more discourse was kicked up from him. in general besides all of that, you had the average death & even a few rape threats you would expect from the pits of fan entitlement. the way they were hardly the most notable of the insults hurled their way still rattles the mind. and thats just what i saw. my friends have claimed to have seen worse, but if we can help it we dont discuss it in detail, it's that bad. like i said, any idea of an actual conversation about c2 and how someone felt about it from an analysis perspective was not even a drop in the bucket; there was no actual discourse but rather spitting hatred pouring over that mistook personal grievances for excuses to mistreat quite literally anyone around them who didnt agree that threatening to defile someone was funny bittersweet revenge.

the thing is, after the c2 finale happened? i mean, a lot of folk didnt originally like it (i think it's generally pretty well liked now, and i enjoy it), but it wrapped up a lot of issues pretty well. all that terror & terrorizing over a fictional story was really for nothing. and even if it had ended undebateably badly did anything warrant that fallout?

there are of course a few other factors that seperate cast from fandom now. laura also got innumerable threats from tlou fans for playing some antagonist character, twitter is a dysfunctional shithole, and it's just rational the more popular you get to not be buddy-buddy with fans. but that was. a Time, for sure. c3 is a decent campaign but im far from the first person to note that many of its traits are set in trying to find vox machina's fixed story beats so no story beat is left "unturned" and being as un-m9-like as possible, even when they love the m9. a lot of the worst m9 fans now who harrass other campaign enjoyers and lament c2 being "an unloved middle child" are folk who never left the bitterness they held in that time. for as much discourse as c3 has kicked up i really dont think any of it compares to the sheer scale of what happened late may 2021, and im hoping with all my heart it never does reach that level ever again (i think c3 has a slightly smaller (at least online) fanbase compared to c2, and isnt marked by a pandemic hiatus, so hopefully that means something).

i hope i answered your question. i really hate remembering this time but sometimes i think it should be remembered so folk know what the cost of extreme parasociality is. the distance the cast has from fans now is not only earned but maybe should have always been there, so things never evolved to that extremity. but now it's done and gone. i envy people who watch cr on their own merits and didn't get sucked into twitter at the time; it has been fascinating watching folk say they love the travelercon/aeor arcs and the ending. rewatching later c2 really emphasizes how many complaints hinged on extremely online & parasocial headspaces - you definitely wont hear anyone nowadays say liam is a biphobic cishet abusing matt by not making caleb kiss essek yet. i hope new fans have a better time than we did. oh - and get off twitter.

[utilitycaster]

I love the taste of salt. Unpopular opinion: i will defend to the death with a 5000 word essay that this campaign isnt any more railroaded than the other CR campaigns, and people saying C3 is more-so than c1 especially have never been a DM. The cliffnotes of my argument;

1. Dnd is a game. Games are meant to be fun. While i believe Matt’s table knows they have the world at their fingertips, why on earth wouldnt they follow the haunted moon god eater plot?? Thats Maximum Fun, especially for their playstyle. Any player short of a 13 year old keen on breaking the world and nothing else would be psyched about that kind of a plot.

2. I think its very difficult to judge a specific campaign on its own as more or less railroaded without the context of others to compare to- thankfully, we have 2 other campaigns we can look at. C2 stands out as being distinctly more sandboxed and character driven than the other two, while c1 and c2 are much more strongly story driven as opposed to character driven imo. But every action any character has taken has always appeared to me as being made of the players own free will.

3. I think theres a distinction that needs to be made between whats meant by “railroading” in the ttrpg sphere, and whats effective story telling. One of the greatest pieces of advice ive ever taken as a DM, is that in an engaging world and an engaging story, the bad guy is always moving forward with their plans regardless of whatever the players are doing. Ludinus wasnt waiting on BH to come and stop his evil plot - that was always going to happen. The players were given a choice to engage, or let it be, and they chose to be heroes. If they had chosen different, Ludinus wouldnt know or frankly care - and we’d be witnessing a much different story line, likely equally as engaging as the current one imo. Its almost certain that Matt knew his players would choose to be heroes and fight Ludinus’ plans, but to me thats more a factor of him knowing his players and the kinds of games they like to play quite intimately, rather than him forcing them into the ruidus story.

Thank you for being the vanguard of salt and unpopular opinions to carve a path for the rest of us in the CR fanspace

Disagree. I am a DM and I do think this is more heavily railroaded than past campaigns so there's your counterexample already but just to address this briefly:

Point 1 doesn't address railroading at all but rather says it's fun, which is not the argument at hand. I don't disagree with this, but the thesis statement isn't "this is fun or not"; it's "is this campaign more railroaded."

Point 2 begins tautologically (you can't compare things without comparing things to things) but also presumes a definition of railroading that hasn't been provided. I don't think railroading is "the DM deprives the players of making choices of their own free will"; I think it's "the DM lays out a goal that has only one real solution."

Point 3 is similarly to point 1 not untrue but also completely irrelevant. In fact, if we look to point 2, the same was true during Campaign 2: Essek, Ludinus, Vess, Trent, Uk'otoa, the Tombtakers - all of them kept making their plans regardless of what the party was doing, and you say yourself that that was a more sandboxed campaign. This also is debunked by my definition in point 2: fighting Ludinus is the goal, but while there was a variance in the potential degree to which they could mitigate what happened in episode 51, they were never really going to truly stop it and many of the events in question were in fact cut scenes. Which again: I don't think is bad, and I think the reason this entire argument doesn't hold together is that it's trying to defend Campaign 3, rather than argue it's not railroaded. I happen to think railroading is a neutral state, and so a defense isn't needed; what's needed is the stated argument re: railroading.

Were I to play devil's advocate to myself in order to structure this argument, I would first come up with a coherent definition of railroading as "the bad guy will do things and the players will want to stop them" is not, in fact, true, as many DMs can attest. What makes C2 more of a sandbox? Articulating that will then set the groundwork for the rest of the argument.

I would then I think focus especially on Campaign 1 and Campaign 3 connections because I do think the campaign is now much more open; the party had a degree of choice without being beholden to a patron or an existing quest in deciding to go to Molaesmyr just now that I don't think they had earlier in the campaign. It was not the only real avenue forward towards the larger goal. Since we didn't see Campaign 1 before around level 9, then I think you can reasonably argue that early Campaign 3 was more railroaded than late Campaign 1 but that is also not a fair comparison, and move from there.