#it would have been free even if i was cis because even reductions are covered here if they are removing a certain amount of material

[daftpatience]

Do you have like a kofi or a gofundme going for your top surgery at all?

trans surgeries are covered in canada! the only struggle is how broken and slow our medical system is ;w;

if anyone wants 2 help me get the stuff ill need for recovery tho i can put this here ig :)

[salsa-and-light]

"I think universalist laws are the best ways to go about this so that everyone is on equal footing"

I would tend to agree, but equal does not always mean fair.

Hiyab(2005) is a Spanish short film that I've seen presented on at least three separate occasions in educational settings during the past fifteen years. It depicts a Muslim girl being harangued into removing her headscarf, all under the premise that "todos somos iguales" "we're all the same" and the rules don’t allow for personal accessories.

I won't spoil the ending if you want to watch it, but I can say that this rule was not heavily enforced, because of course it wasn't.

People as a rule are basing their understanding of the world based on their own experience, which is going to be limited no matter what you do; but where prejudice is involved people tend to manipulate the edges of gray space.

So in that sense, beyond very broad general principles, rules should be maleable when outside or unexpected circumstances arise.

...

A common piece of rhetoric from the pre-obergefell years was the claim that Queer people already had equal rights.

Which is to say that they had the right to have a heterosexual marriages just like any straight person.

Many of the "drag bans" of the past year or two have been so ignorant of what drag is that they have to include gray areas of the law just to cover everything that people are trying to bam

These regulations are so broad that many ban any type of gender variance, any type of personal styling or any type of performance.

Up to including perfectly benign things like women in pants or dancing.

Now, most people, including Queer activists, know that Dolly Parton isn't going to get arrested for wearing a wig in front of teenagers, and the local goth might even safe; but these laws are inherently subjective to the point where anyone can be a target but only certain people will be.

So I am not opposed to general legislation, but general equality alone is not a guarantee of Justice. So we just need to be cautious about that possibility.

Many of the laws that were made by explicitly Queer-friendly people with the intention of protecting Queer people, trans people included, have had to be amended to explicitly include trans people. Because Bigots especially will seek out ways to exploit gaps in legal protections.

"the fracturing of identities into these strange shards is ultimately reductive to the goal at hand."

Not necessarily, the fact of the matter is that if people's rights already protected then it shouldn't matter whether or not they are known and unknown.

When large numbers of Sikhs, Budhists and Muslims started to arrive in America, they were frequently not treated well and were most often abused and oppressed. But they did have the fortune of America having explicit protections for religious liberties. People had to fight for the recognition of that right no doubt, but they did not have to fight for the moral validity of the concept of the right to free religious expression.

And because this idea[religious liberty] was established and fighting injustice in that regard helps all religious minorities.

The rules that protect Muslim women wearing Hijabs also protect Sikh men wearing turbans, the rules that protect atheists from participation in Christian practices also protect Buddhists. Allowing people to pray in the workplace protects you whether you're Muslim, Christian or Wiccan.

So in many ways, more specific and less usual concerns are actually a good method to protect against bias in the process of lawmaking.

Obviously this can be dependant on public opinion but this goes together with you're idea of getting your foot in the door and grandfathering in other Queer people.

If an AFAB nonbinary person establishes the right to not wear a skirt in the workplace and a Straight man establishes the right to wear a skirt in the workplace then we are now protecting the freedom of whole swathes of people, trans, cis, non-binary and other, and all with a wider range of possibilities for those who are still in the closet.

So in cases like that I think you're absolutely right. I do see what you mean about establishing one thing at a time.

I don't want to give the impression that I think that I'm taking an all or nothing approach to civil rights.

My main point is that legislation centered on L,G,B or T does not automatically cover all other Queer people and that those edge cases are important, and also that we shouldn't be muzzling less acceptable Queer people as an acceptable sacrifice for the benefit of the more accepted.

It wasn't a conventional Cis man drag queen who disrupted drag bans in Texas, it was an AFAB nonbinary drag queen.

Specific Queer experiences are not only useful in covering variations, they are sometimes essential to displaying a full and accurate picture.

I'm of the mind that we should be attacking this from all sides, cover every base you can.

If you can protect gay people, do it, if you can protect intersex people, do it. Queer liberation is a societal project and it is going to have to be done one step at a time. But that shouldn't stop us all from trying to move in the right direction.

"Most people are aware of Gay, Lesbian and Trans people,"

Well why do you think that is?

It's because for decades people have been marching and causing scenes and shocking people, maybe my upbringing was isolated but it was hardly ten years ago that most people I knew were entirely convinced that Queerness was something that only happened in places like San Francisco and New York.

The "Transgender Tipping Point" year was 2014.

More people are aware of trans people than non-binary people, but that's a current condition. It's not accurate to pretend that that's any more permanent than the relative ignorance of trans people ten years ago.

If it is required that we make these smaller issues know, we can do that. I don't think that it's strictly necessary, but it's perfectly possible.

I've already seen portrayals of transfemme non-binary people, polyamorous relationships and asexual people in media there is opportunity for awareness.

"and that should be the bulwark that queer rights are built upon. By using this as our anchor we can secure rights for everyone without having to explain the more eccentric identities like femboy catgirls to people that would otherwise be turned around from it because it sounds weird."

I'm in favor of protecting people's rights wherever possible, So I have no problem with this; because it's not an all or nothing proposition.

Any progress is progress, if a law protects suburban lesbian soccer moms than that's better than nothing.

But-

At the same time we also have a social problem instead of a legal problem.

Queer people are a group because we were collectively put into an outgroup,

Heteronormativity is one of those big scary words that scares people, but it is a legitimate concept and it is a bulwark of modern culture.

It's unlikely that we can completely eliminate social ingroups entirely but my concern when it comes to prioritizing cis-gay and gender-conforming trans people as the heads of Queer liberation is that we run the risk of moving these people from the category of unacceptable to acceptable instead of making the category for acceptable wider.

It's somewhat similar to the difference between women's liberation and simply adding secretary and nurse to the list of acceptable life paths for a woman.

Perhaps this is problem which will work itself out, like with Women's lib, but my concern is that some Queer people might sneak into society's good graces and pull the ladder up behind them,

There's already homopobic gay people, the "LGB" movement which is a transphobic group of gay people, transphobic and NBphobic trans people.

And there are plenty of Queer people who have internalized sex negative and anti-kink philosophies.

I'll say it again, I don't think trans liberation is an all or nothing proposition, but I am concerned that separating ourselves into smaller groups just allows for the growth of more minute prejudices even among the people who should really know better.

That was the message of the comic after all.

"Society, however, might take some time to adjust to the femboy catgirls among us."

Which brings me back to my previous point. Turn up the heat.

If we're going to make the world a better place for the "weird"(the queer if you will) then we can't demand that the strange become normal.

If people don't understand trans people, show them non-binary people.

If people can't handle drag queens, show them drag things.

If people balk at bondage, show them pup-play.

So long as this doesn't become a source for infighting, broader exposure can make things better for all involved.

Because if you face social repercussions being a gender conforming gay person or a person interested in light kink, then the Genderqueers and the pansexual swingers are going to be in hiding.

Might as well lay it all out there.

"Again, its about optics. You’re not fighting to convince the person who is bigoted against you to vote in your favor. You are fighting for the most lukewarm motherfucker who has never heard of this “nonbinary” thing."

I see what you mean, but it's a bit late in the game for this to be a realistic concern someplace like America.

If someone has been living in America for the past 20 to 60 years, and they're still on the fence about gay rights then I don't know what might push them over the edge, in either direction.

Sure some of these fence-sitters might be former bigots, but I imagine that the majority of these people have not had their minds changed by conscious thought but by a combination of desensitization and social consequence for open bigotry.

Which is all the more reason to not treat them with kiddie gloves.

My own blessed father is not an ally in any sense of the word, last I checked he still has some pretty homophobic beliefs.

But he can have a conversation with a gay person now, because he worked with a gay person, and professionalism demanded a certain level of decorum.

It's not an ideal, but it's still better.

And to a certain extent, trying to hide more unusual aspects of Queer culture has only created a time-release schedule for prejudice. Politicians might not be able to openly call gay men pedophiles and perverts anymore(mostly) but drag queens are something different. So much about what people are saying about drag queens in virtually unchanged from six decades ago. It's ultimately premised on the idea that Queer men are sexual deviants who want to harm children, now with the added transphobic tropes of violating the sanctity of womanhood.

Obviously some of the progression on Queer civil rights is based on societal attitudes of what is the least foreign for straight people, and not all of this is intentional; but I don't see the need to replicate the formula.

Unless there is a concrete reason to not tell someone, it might behoove us to put our cards on the table.

I have no problem with lying to bigots if it helps protect Queer people, but I'm content to carry the bit so far as to actually participate in their prejudice.

"There are a hundred bigots, but a million of that lukewarm dude who has never set foot on tumblr or twitter and has no idea about all these micro identities that start to sound like rpg character classes after awhile."

Awareness is one thing, sure, but where empathy fails, tolerance requires more awareness than prejudice.

Most homophobes are trained to hate certain traits far before they learn what those traits are supposedly tied too.

You don't need to understand the concept of being non-binary or to even have heard the word to exhibit hatred towards a perceived gender nonconformity.

A violent bigot is not going to ask if their target is non-binary, trans, gay or straight before they attack.

I was attacked a few years ago and it wasn't because I was doing anything gay. I was alone, but I was wearing a smidge of makeup(at a distance) and a choker and that was enough.

The flaw in your reasoning here is that non-homosexual, non-trans Queer people are safe in the meantime if we leave them out of the discussion. If that worked then it would be a very noble idea, but it's in conflict with reality.

These people are in danger already, they're being harmed already. This isn't hypothetical I'm afraid.

"And when people get confused they dont do what they want you to do."

Yes, of course; that is the operative problem.

But as I said, they don't need to understand to be dangerous, but they often do need to understand to improve.

"I want everyone to have full human rights and dignity as well. But I also want to understand that world."

Lots of people want to understand things before they accept them, and that is an understandable impulse but it is also a limitation on human empathy.

Understanding can be a useful tool in the fight against prejudice, but if we need to understand people before we treat them well then we will never escape prejudice, save by luck and coincidence.

It's a noble intent but I'm afraid that's sort of a non-starter.

I understand that I might sound a bit wishy washy, but this is a case of multiple things being true at the same time. Awareness is often necessary to reducing biggotry.. but no one can be aware of everything.

In that case we're just butting up against one of the fundamental problems with the human condition; limited and fickle empathy.

One of the quickest hacks for empathy is for people to have a personal connection with an issue. Exposure might lead to awareness but if someone is unempathetic then it won't make them care. This is why coming out is so impactful.

At the same time, no one can possibly have relevant personal connections to every vulnerable group of people.

Which is why laws and civil protections are such a big part of this.

"The fact that you consider explain ability or understanding to be irrelevant is mind-boggling to me because why would people support a cause for something that sounds made up?"

Well the cause isn't what's complicated.

The cause is very concrete and simple, what's complicated are the states and experiences which created the need for the cause in the first place.

But you don't need to understand the intricacies of Hinduism or Santeria to be able to recognize when religious minorities are having their rights attacked.

You don't need to speak Norwegian or Chinese to recognize that the American government's attempt to wipe out minority languages was immoral.

This all goes back to the empathy question.

I don't think that comprehensibility is entirely irrelevant, I probably misspoke there, but for so long as not understanding someone is a justification for prejudice, understanding alone is not a solution. Understanding is not empathy there will always be someone new to not understand.

So while helping people understand is a helpful tool, a necessary tool even, it can not be the only option for fighting prejudice.

And of course, we've been talking about swaying people quite a lot here, but I don't want to get caught up in the idea that the moral improvement of bigots is the most important thing here.

In a perfect world, I would love it for homophobes to no exist, but we don't live in a perfect world so second best is a world where homophobia doesn't matter.

"If you’re going on about femboy catgirl rights, a person not terminally online would hear something like “Oh i want rights for the floppity doo people” and therefore take the movement less seriously and thus lose support,"

That is a possibility, but I this goes back to empathy, and the value of social scripts.

Being silent might prevent people from being confused and then sinking into prejudice, but if that's all it takes.. then it's gonna' happen anyways.

My mother may not have ever seen a catboy, but she's seen a man in a skirt walking around in public.

She's a persona who thinks that men should never tweeze their eyebrows, cat ears and striped stockings are strictly out of the question.

Silence, where it has any effect, only moves the problem somewhere else.

Whereas, if someone hears of something possibly contentious from a peer or respected source, the baseline framing is going to be different.

This was partially why there was such a big emphasis on coming out in the early Queer rights movement, because having a personal connection to a Queer person was the quickest and most effective way to win people over; because it changed us from an abstract idea of radical change and deviancy to a human experience that someone cared about.

Because then, like now, Queer people are already in the public eye; better to learn from someone they know and trust than to base their perspective off of strangers or bigots.

Bigots are not traditionally quiet about their beliefs. So it's not so much a question of if someone is going to hear about something new and unusual, but where from.

Individuals can hide in the closet, but the collective is already known.

"And that would probably lead to further questions. Like “Why the hell would anyone do that?”"

Maybe, but "because they enjoy it", "because it fulfills them" or "because it feels right" is often enough to explain most things.

Goodness knows that I don't understand why people collect Funko pops or run marathons, but I don't really need to.

If they really want details then that could be an opportunity to introduce them to some sort of information about the topic.

But questions are good, the alternative is some dark blank space that people will fill with their worst fears.

I recently had a generally tolerant friend ask a lot of questions about gender transition and related surgeries and I had to opportunity to correct some misinformation.

"Which then leads to the three hour conversation where that person’s world is rocked to the core."

Or you could simply point out that the person in question also has interests and does things that don't appeal to other people.

It might rock their world, but if they've reached adulthood, without realizing that people can be perfectly reasonable and also act completely differently than them then it's about time that it was rocked.

Speaking more broadly, if you actually do want to get into the nittty-gritty of the conversation, that can be difficult, I will acknolwedge; but that can usually be solved by matching the level of detail to the level of knowledge of the person.

That requires a basic level of knowledge yourself of course, but sometimes you just have to get creative.

I have had to explain the difference between trans women and drag queens to multiple people and often I've compared it to the difference between an animal mascot and a furry: One being performative and the other being a permanent feature that persists throughout your private live.

It's not a perfect comparison, it's not something I would usually bring up in "woke" political circles, but it's worked so far. Not every tool needs to be sharp.

"Yeah, people’s refusal to learn is a problem. One that I dont think anyone can solve unless the people that refuse to learn overcome that refusal and…well learn."

Yes, I agree, but people learn unconsciously to a certain extent, whether they want to or not. I've watched gay movies from ~2010 and they frequently call trans women drag queens. Now I've met homophobes who know the difference.

So that's all the more reason to give them exposure, especially when they know you or their held in check by social and professional niceties.

"Ill have to agree to disagree on that last part. Its pretty easy actually to never encounter that sort of stuff if you’re a normie."

Define stuff?

And define normie?

I grew up on a farm in Rural Arkansas, my parents very rarely leave the property save for work and church, which means that in either case their social circles are small and overlapping groups of primarily Southern Conservative Protestants.

All the same, over the course of the past two decades, they have met new people, they have gone to new places, and had new experienes where they've seen men in skirts and women holding hands.

They've also watched TV in the past twenty years.

In fact to not have seen an explicitly Queer person on film in the past decade, would require a constant and conscious effort. 1 in 5 studio films included an Queer character in 2021

I know we roll our eyes at the four seconds of a Queer couple in th background and the "explicitly gay" characters that lots of Disney movies do but they are there, and they are marketed that way.

The Ballad of Songbirds & Snakes just came out, my parents go to movies maybe once, twice a year, and this Christmas they saw that.

A movie featuring a trans actress as a principle character.

And I don't mean to paint them as tolerant, they're not. But they're about as isolated from the rest of society as they can get without living off the grid and they still went to see a movie with a prominent trans actress.

"if these people hardly know how a wireless mouse dongle works, they sure as shit aint reading anything about queer people."

In my experience IT people infamous for being isolated or antisocial, I don't know how true that is, but they also trend younger, and Queer people are a lot more unavoidable than.. mouse dongles.. or whatever.

If you work at a company big enough to have an IT department there are Queer people there, and in most cases several of them are out and obvious.

My last job in America(in the South) had ~20 people, and there were out Queer people, not including me.

"I certainly do approve the use of self defense if people are gunning for you thats for sure."

Well I'm glad we can agree on that.

But something that we can be aware of is the social influence on justice. If someone comes at trans woman with a knife, it might not matter how justified the self-defense is depending on who's holding the knife and what the public attitude is.

It's not hard to imagine that if a young woman or a mother attacks a trans woman, at pool for example, that people would conceptualize a unprovoked attack as a brave act of self-defense.

Trans and Gay panic defenses are still legally valid arguments in over half of American states. So as much as I am pro-self defense and a living Queer person arguing for fairness is better than a dead one.. it's worth remembering the that there is a disparity;

Which is why this can be a touchy subject.

When those men tried to kill me.. I didn't tell anyone, I didn't report it to the police. I was an abused, poor, closeted Queer who was technically supposed to be almost a hundred miles away at the time.

"Hmm, im just some guy, and I do support equal rights, so maybe my ideas and perceptions arent as keen as I would like them to be, im not really on the front lines of politics, just some irrelevant blogger sharing my thoughts."

I've been operating under the impression that you are essentially well-meaning, don't worry.

I don't claim to be an expert, but this does matter and I think that unity or at least solidarity is important. I don't see much use in cutting people out of the fold.

"In retrospect, Visibility is definitely important, people shouldnt hide who they are, as I understand it, as much as a cis guy can at any rate, the closet is a terrible thing to be in."

Too true, which in many ways makes our conversation moot.

People are going to come into the public eye, when they are able and comfortable. We can barely speed it up, we can't slow it down.

As opinionated as I am, even I'm not as out as I would like to be.

A common refrain that I say about the Queer community is that "hurt people, hurt people". Lot's of Queer people are sort of bumbling along in their pursuit of a better world so my intention here has not been to degrade people who have a different idea of how to do things. Queer people can't even agree, why should anyone else know the solution.

The fact that there are even straight people to have this conversation with is a privilege of our current society.

So, we do have at least one thing in the win column for today.

Note the assumption that all LGBT people automatically support each other.

Even though many TERFs/“Gender-critical feminists” are lesbians.

Also, many people specifically say that their issue is not with LGBT people, it’s with “degenerates” hiding behind a minority label.

Including some LGBT people who don’t want to get dragged down with the pervs.

Most of the people who talk about “degeneracy” will apply that label to straight, non-trans people too.

[sidras-tak]

Can I ask what your top surgery experience was like as a nonbinary lesbian? I’m considering it

Hi, yeah! I don't mind talking about it. It's one of the best decisions I've ever made and I would not be nearly as happy as I am now if I didn't do it.

I got my top surgery a few days before i turned 21. I call it top surgery, but it was really a radical breast reduction. I decided to go with a reduction because it was cheaper, covered by insurance, there wasn't much of a wait, and i didn't need a letter from a therapist or anything like some places require for full top surgery.

I went from a very full DD to almost entirely flat (technically a B-cup, but I rarely wear bras with cups, or bras at all. If i have to wear a bra, it's a bralette or sports bra, and that's for nip-out reasons, not support). With an average-fitting shirt, my chest looks completely flat. It's awesome. In order to get these results, I had to discuss it with my surgeon. I told him that I was non-binary and this would be the only medical component to my transition. That way, he understood what results I wanted (the appearance of a flat chest while clothed) and didn't do any reshaping that he might on a typical patient-- no perky post-plastic-surgery boobs here! I have scars but I like how they look now that they're healed, and, in fact, didn't use much scar-fading cream because I wanted to keep them. Somehow my surgeon avoiding giving me drains, which I'm thankful for.

The only downside so far is that I can't go shirtless in public. I'm not on T and definitely don't look masculine at all, and while I have about the same amount of boob-age as a chubby cis man at my weight and height, they're clearly the kind of boobs tumblr would flag as inappropriate. Not a huge loss, in my opinion.

As for the experience of the actual surgery as a non-binary person, only the surgeon knew this was a gender thing, so I got deadnamed by the nurses/etc, but that didn't matter to me very much.

Recovery was about two weeks until I felt normal again, and a few more months until I could lift anything substantial (I went back to college with a roller bag since I couldn't wear my backpack for a while). Overall, the pain was minimal and 100% worth it. The emotional crash right after surgery is no joke and I thought I had made a huge mistake, but it faded quickly and I haven't regretted it since.

I'm so much happier and more confident now. Before my surgery, I dressed in baggy clothing and felt completely uncomfortable in anything revealing or feminine because it felt so wrong. Now that I have a flat chest, my gender dysphoria is completely gone and I'm wearing clothes I actually like, including skirts and dresses and even bikinis, which would have been totally unthinkable for me five years ago. Button down shirts fit like a dream, too.

If you have more questions or concerns, please come talk to me! You can stick to anon or DM me directly. If there are other people who want to ask questions/talk, please feel free to do the same. I hope this helps!

[transgenderteensurvivalguide]

is there a weight limit for top surgery, and by gaining weight after getting top surgery could the affects be ruined? i've heard people losing weight before getting bottom surgery so i wasn't sure if it's the same for top surgery. i'm also deathly terrified that if i get top surgery, i'll gain weight after and ruin the flatness of my chest. what's the truth in all this?

Lee says:

As long as you don’t have any serious health complications because of your weight, you can get top surgery-- but it isn’t always easy. 

The medical field is kind of known for “fatphobia” and that can affect you when you’re looking for a top surgeon. It’s true that there can be some increased risks for overweight people going under anesthesia, but there are some top surgeons who have pretty strict weight limits and use that as an excuse to turn down a patient even when it is possible for them to get surgery safely.

One surgeon’s website says “Dr. Mosser does not have a body mass index (BMI) requirement for surgery, and has performed top surgery on patients with BMIs as high as 65″. 

On the other hand, the USCF team says  “you must have a BMI less than 35 before scheduling your consultation. The reasons for this are twofold – to reduce the risk of general anesthesia and to give a better appearing final result. Those with a BMI between 32 and 35 may experience higher surgical risks and less satisfying cosmetic outcomes.”

So you can see that different surgeons have different requirements; some don’t have weight limits, and others do. 

You may have to “surgeon shop” a bit to find a surgeon who is competent, capable and has no weight/BMI limits for their patients, but it’s possible to find someone and fully achievable! I have two fat trans guy friends who got top surgery, and they’re totally happy with their results.

Fat folk are probably going to have to get double incision top surgery, since their chest would be too large for a keyhole or periareolar, but they can get just as flat as anyone else with double incision.

It’s more likely you’ll get “dog ears” at the end of your scars towards your armpits, but that can be dealt with by getting a revision which is often free. Make sure you ask your top surgeon what their policy on revisions are, and what fees you’d have to pay if you needed one.

There are some fat folks who choose to leave in a little more fat in their chest because they feel like the extra fullness fits their body type because some fat men have “moobs” but that’s a personal aesthetic choice and not required or something, and it’s possible to get a flat chest with top surgery if you tell the surgeon to make you flat. I do think the majority of folks choose to go fully flat, but there’s nothing wrong with choosing otherwise.

I gained about ~15 lbs in the three-ish years since I had top surgery (I went from around 120 lbs pre-op to 135 lbs) and it hasn’t affected my chest at all, or made it any less flat but I don’t weigh a lot even now.

If you gain a lot of weight after top surgery your chest may get a little larger, but it won’t regrow to whatever your pre-surgery size was because the breast tissue has been removed. It’s the same with cis men; if they gain a lot of weight, they may also get “moobs”.

Because a typical trans double mastectomy leaves about 10% of the tissue in for contour, and a few fat folks opt for even more (although this isn’t common), it’s still possible for post-top surgery folks to get cancer in that tissue. That means top surgery may decrease the risk of breast cancer, but it won’t prevent breast cancer.

Top surgery (via double mastectomy) is pretty customizable in the amount of fat you choose to keep, so you can choose if you want a very flat chest, a more contoured chest, a breast reduction or “moob-like” chest because they’re doing large incisions which means they have lots of room to work with when it comes to excising the fat and using liposuction.

You can see an example of a larger fellow who got a flat chest here, and another example here. It’s definitely possible for fat folks to get flat chests after top surgery if that’s what they want from the procedure!

Trans Bucket has a ton of pics of this, but right now folks say the website seems to be acting up so your mileage may vary with getting an account.

The Facebook groups Top Surgery Support (removal/reduction) and Non-Binary Top Surgery both have a ton of pictures uploaded as well, but you can’t see any “before” pictures there because of Facebook’s NSFW ban. They’re still worth checking out though for the personal experiences, community, support, and post-op pics.

If your surgeon tells you at the consult that they are requiring you to lose weight before you get a surgery date, at least you’ll have an idea of how much weight you have to lose which can help direct your goal and keep you motivated, or you can decide to go with a different surgeon who doesn’t have BMI requirements.

There are a lot of folks who find it really hard to lose weight even if you’re eating healthy and exercising and all that because the body really doesn’t want to lose weight, so waiting until you’ve lost a significant amount of weight might not be an ideal timeframe for getting surgery because you might find it really difficult to lose weight which means you’ll keep pushing back the process of getting surgery until an undetermined date in the future, and not having surgery or an idea of when you’ll be getting surgery can be bad for your mental health if you have a lot of dysphoria.

So you may also want to consider getting a second opinion with another surgeon instead of putting all your eggs in one basket, so schedule two consults with two different surgeons if you can, instead of seeing one surgeon, then deciding to schedule a consult with another one which will increase the wait time.

And of course, if you don’t get completely flat after top surgery and you end up with dog ears or something, you can always get a revision.

Similarly, if you do end up gaining a lot of weight and getting “moobs” then you could also get a little revision and have a bit of liposuction or excision done. This may or may not be covered by insurance if it’s “cosmetic,” but revisions are typically cheaper than the initial top surgery.

So you definitely can get a flat chest after top surgery even if you weigh a lot pre-op and have a big chest- I’ve seen it myself a ton of times!

Plus, even if you did have moobs, your chest would still be “male” looking because your nipples would have been resized to be smaller during surgery so your areolas would be more like a man’s, and your chest would match your overall body type so you’d be similar to a typical cis men with that body size instead of a typical cis woman with that body size.

While is possible that gaining a large amount of weight post-op will make your chest less flat, it’s also true that right now your chest isn’t flat either. So you’d still be better off after top surgery then than you are right now, even if you regained a little weight. So it’s a pretty significant step in the right direction.

Again, it’s really unlikely that you’d get gain enough weight to get moobs that are larger than the breasts that you have currently, so getting surgery moves you closer to a “flat-er” chest, and it’s always possible to make it a fully-flat chest by getting a revision if it becomes necessary. 

So yeah, there are some surgeons who have BMI limits, and there is a chance you could regain some fat in your chest if you gain a significant amount of weight after surgery, but most people who need top surgery find that it’s worth fighting for anyway.

[spidergwenistrans]

I'm sure lots of people have talked about this already, but I think it's really shady the way only parts of transition healthcare are ever covered by so many insurance providers. I'm talking both public and private here.

I want to be very clear about the fact that I'm arguing we add any additional roadblocks or gatekeeping to transition care. All I want to argue for here is that more options be available.

In Ontario, I was able to access HRT through an informed consent process, which means I proved to my doctor that I understood the limitations, side effects, and risks associated with estrodial and cyproterone, the meds I take.

I was lucky, this wasn't my GP's first time with this, so he knew what to do, I didn't have to educate him on the basics of it. He has his limitations, and eventually I want to see an endocrinologist about progesterone, and long term management of my hormones, especially post bottom surgery.

In lots of places, it's way harder to access even HRT. In the UK for example, my understanding is that you need to see a specialist, and GPs are generally unwilling to prescribe HRT even in the interim before seeing a specialist.

As far as I know, the UK is the only publicly funded health care system that covers gamete preservation for trans people, though it's not a part of the system I hear much about. Obviously the UK system has lots of issues, but on paper it sounds like it should be the best one to be trans in.

OHIP (Ontario's system) won't cover HRT for lots (most?) people, because OHIP doesn't really cover medication for anyone from 26-64(?). It does allow your doctor to prescribe you hormones, which was a big win. It also allows bottom and top surgery to be covered, but each has to be approved individually, according to the page listing the requirements.

The fact that top surgery to remove breast tissue has to be approved, but breast reduction is covered automatically, and all you have to say is that it prevents you from living the life you want (essentially, there's a specific wording, but any good surgeon will coach you during a consult, as my friend learned).

I don't want this to read as me thinking we should add gatekeeping to breast reduction, I just want to call out the double standard here.

Meanwhile, all of the trans affirming surgeries require 2 seperate assessments, by 2 health care providers, stating you have a diagnosis of persistent gender dysphoria. They also have that classic requirement: "have completed 12 continuous months of hormone therapy (unless hormones are not recommended) you have lived 12 continuous months in the gender role you identify with (for genital surgery only)."

These are a big improvement, for Ontario at least, over what they used to be. We used to be required to see a psychologist, which meant a 6+ month wait list just to get an initial assessment, followed by probably several appointments, hen being sent back to your GP before finally getting a referral to a (the, at the time) surgeon.

Under current requirements, I could probably see my doctor, and then a nurse practitioner with his office and get my surgery approval submitted in less than a month. Of course, that doesn't mean I'd be seeing a surgeon all that quickly, especially right now.

I'm supposed to talk to my doctor on Tuesday about getting this process started, so that's exciting, if a little terrifying, it feels like the biggest step in my transition so far.

I'm kind of rambling here, the thing I really wanted to talk about was what isn't covered.

There's no support for gamete saving, which kind of amounts to a form of mass coerced sterilisation, since many of us can't afford to save our gametes on our own, especially before we even start transition, and we know the hormones will probably make us infertile as long as we're on them. I know for me, I don't think I could tolerate the 3+ months off hormones required to produce viable gametes again.

I probably could have waited a couple more to start if I'd been trying to save gametes then, but there was no way I could afford it on my own, and I'd be wanting to start them for months at that point, and only waited until I came out to my family. I'm personally not that upset about never having children from my own gametes, it doesn't bother me that much, it's not being able to carry them that hurts more. But my personal feelings about this don't mean that I shouldn't have had the option??

The other thing that isn't covered, which really bothers me, is facial surgery. I know that masculising face surgery is in a very different place than feminising face surgery, but I'm going to speak from the perspective of a trans gal that wants FFS, I can't speak to wanting FMS, trans masc folks who know more than me feel free to comment, or link to other people talking about it. I don't think it's exactly my place to talk about it, and I really just don't know very much anyways.

Bottom surgery being covered is so incredibly important to so many of us, but the idea that bottom surgery should be covered, but face surgery shouldn't is wild to me? Ultimately, they're both somewhat cosmetic, but you know what else is? Brushing your teeth. Bad tooth health will eventually ruin your life, and so will dysphoria, so why can't we cover a surgery that would deal with a major source of dysphoria?

FFS procedures are not especially new or experimental, lots of cis women have some of these procedures as well. From a safety-via-passing perspective, FFS is probably more important than bottom surgery for at least some trans women.

I don't mean to say that we should all have it, or that anyone's priorities are wrong, personally even if both were free, I would still get bottom surgery first. I also don't want to imply that passing should be a goal, requirement, or something everyone, or even anyone should strive for. But, it's sometimes useful to frame things for the cis people that still get to make these decisions about our bodies, to be able to understand why it matters to us when it does.

In an ideal world, trans kids won't be forced to go through the wrong puberty, and hopefully some of these surgeries will be less and less necessary, but I don't think we'll be there for a while, and even if we get there, there will probably always be adults who realise their transness long after puberty.

[rbzpr]

Robespierre against Cloots (22 Frimaire, Year II)

Following the exclusion of Duhem from the Jacobin Club, Anacharsis Cloots, representative of Oise, was summoned for a scrutin épuratoire. When asked about his country of origin, he responded: « I am from Prussia, future department of the French Republic ». Cloots then was requested to explain his relations with the bankers Vandenyver, who had been condemned to death by the Tribunal on 17 Frimaire, Year II. Robespierre took the floor, attacking Cloots for his role in the movement of dechristianization and in the establishment of the "Cult of Reason". He closed his speech by demanding the exclusion of all bankers, foreigners and former noblemen from the Jacobin Club ; this proposal was adopted and applied to Cloots, who was a foreigner and nobleman.

Robespierre. Can we regard a German baron as a patriot? Can we regard a man who has more than ten thousand livres of income as a sans-culotte? Can we believe that a man who lives only with bankers, the counter-revolutionary enemies of France, is a republican? No, Citizens, let us be cautious towards foreigners who want to appear more patriotic than the French themselves. Cloots, you spend your life with our enemies, with the agents and the spies of the foreign powers; like them, you are a traitor who has to be monitored. Citizens, Cloots just explained everything to you; he knows the Vandenyvers, and knew that they are counter-revolutionaries. He assures you that he has ceased to see them, but even this is a trickery of the Prussian. Thus, why, Cloots, if you knew that the Vandenyvers are counter-revolutionaries, did you come to request their release at the Committee of General Security: speak, what do you have to respond?

But these charges are insignificant when dealing with M. Cloots. His treasons stem from a system [that is] hatched better. Citizens, you have at times seen him at the feet of the tyrant and of the Court, at times kneeling before the people... When a liberticidal faction dominated in our midst, when all the leaders held the reigns of the government, Cloots embraced the party of Brissot and Dumoriez. When they served the foreign powers, and made us declare war, the Prussian Cloots frantically supported their opinions; he made patriotic donations, extolled the generals, and wanted us to attack the Universe... His conduct attracted the scorn of the faction nonetheless. His amour-propre made him publish a pamphlet titled « Ni Marat ni Roland ». Therein, he clouted the latter, but he clouted the Montagne even more.

I accuse Cloots of having increased the number of the partisans of federalism. His extravagant opinions, his obstinacy to speak of a Universal Republic, to inspire the rage of conquests, could produce the same effect as the seditious declamations and writings of Brissot and Lanjuinais. And how could M. Cloots take an interest in the unity of the Republic, in the interests of France: scorning the title of French citizen, he only wanted the one of citizen of the World. Ah! if he had been a good Frenchman, would he have wanted us to attempt the conquest of the Universe?... And would he have wanted us to make a French department out of Mutapa? Would he have wanted us to declare war on the Earth and on all elements? Could these allegedly philosophical ideas enter the head of a sensible man, or the one of a good man?

There is a third crisis that M. Cloots will be able to boast about, but it will only be before imbeciles or rascals... I do not want to speak of the movement against religion, a movement which, ripened by time and reason, could have become excellent, but whose violence could bring about the greatest misfortunes, and which have to be attributed to the calculations of the aristocracy... Gobel, whose entire political conduct you know, was among these priests who complained about the reduction of their salaries, and whose ambition wanted to revive the hydra of the ci-devant clergy... And nonetheless, we have seen this bishop suddenly changing his tone, language and clothes, appearing at the bar of the National Convention, and offering his lettres de prêtrise to us. Ah! Cloots, you know about your nocturnal visits and complots. We know that, covered by the shadows of the night, you have prepared this philosophical masquerade with the bishop Gobel. You anticipated the fatal consequences that such approaches can have; by this very fact, they only further pleased our enemies. Cloots undoubtedly believed that the true friends of the people had taken the bait and were fooled by these masquerades. He came to boast about this pleasant achievement at the Committee... « But, I told him, you have recently told us that it was necessary to enter the Netherlands, to give them independence, and to treat the inhabitants like brothers... So, why do you seek to alienate the Belgians from us by upsetting prejudices to which they are, as you know, strongly attached? ... – Oh! oh! he responded, the damage was already done... One has treated us like impious [non-believers] a thousand times. – Yes, but there were no events. » (Cloots grew pale, did not dare to respond and left.)

Citizens, will you regard as a patriot a foreigner who wants to be more democratic than the French and whom one sees in the Marais at times, at times above the Montagne? because Cloots was never in the Montagne; he was always above or below. He never was the defender of the French people, but the one of humankind. Alas! unfortunate patriots, what can we do, surrounded by enemies who fight amidst our ranks! They cover themselves with masks, they tear us apart, and we can feel the wounds without knowing where the murderous bolts are coming from. We can no longer do anything, our mission is completed. The wisest laws, by means of traitors who are spread in all Committees of the Assembly, in all administrations, in all offices, turn to the disadvantage of the Republic. Our enemies, risen even above the Montagne, take us from behind in order to deliver mortal blows to us. Let us stay awake, for the death of the patrie is not far away. Ah! no, the one of the patriots does not matter, they have to make this sacrifice. But, alas! the one of the patrie is inevitable, if the cowards are not recognised.

Citizens, I pray you to reflect: when we have decreed rigorous laws against the nobles, Cloots was excepted; when he have decreed the arrest of the foreigners, Cloots was been excepted; what do I say, excepted! in the same moment, Cloots was elected president of the Jacobins: thus, through an infallible consequence, the foreign party dominates amidst the Jacobins. Yes, the foreign powers have, amidst us, their spies, their ministers, treasurers and a police. But we, we have the people, which wants to be free and will be... The bankers conspire with impunity. They let our assignats au pair rise only in order to hoard our money; when they want crowds at the doors of bakers, they are besieged. They decide on the peace in this city; and the intrepid patriots, the friends of the Republic, are exposed to a thousand dangers... Paris is filled with intriguers, Englishmen and Austrians. They sit among us with the agents of Frederick... Cloots is a Prussian... I have traced the history of his political life for you... Decide.

Source: OMR, t. 10, p. 247 et seq.

[bitegore]

About Pride- you aren't wrong, but there's a difference between someone wearing leather gear and someone practicing other parts of a kink. Wearing a collar is fine, being on all fours on a leash is really not for public spaces. Because that's involving non-consenting strangers in your kink. Sure, it's good for people to know kink isn't wrong, but something not being wrong doesn't mean it's appropriate for public spaces. Just like sex isn't wrong, but having sex where minors and nonconsenting (1)

(2) strangers can come upon you without warning isn't a good idea. If there's an area that's specifically designated as an area where there will be sex and full kinkplay, great! Mark it clearly and go nuts. But if it's somewhere people could just come up without realizing, that's not a good idea. There are people who don't want to see strangers engaged in sexual activity, and there are parents who would immediately snatch their questioning kid away from any event like that.

(3) There's nothing wrong with indicators of kink in public. Leather gear, badges, flags, that kind of thing. But actual kink /play/ is too much for places where someone could accidentally walk into it. And I really don't think Pride should be designated a place where you should expect to find people performing sex acts randomly scattered about. Not because it's shameful, but because it's something that you need to get people's consent to involve them in.

(4) And I know kink isn't innately sexual, but a lot of it is going to be interpreted that way to someone unfamiliar with the exact scene. Besides, even the nonsexual kink requires consent from all involved. In short: anything that says or demonstrates "I'm into kink" is great, good for people to see, and often stylish. Actually /doing/ that kink, except in areas that are (literally or not) surrounded by "here be kink" signs, is not so great. Because, again, consent. Nothing to do with shame.

-----

This is long, so I’m sticking a cut on it. 

Okay, before I start I want to preface this with: I do actually see your point. I’m going to be arguing with you, but I really want that to be clear. For the most part, I agree with you. You’re just arguing a point that I didn’t try to make, and I kind of want to clear that up. 

Second: my head is hurting worse than usual today (an explanation, not meant as points or to give me a pass if i’m wrong, lol) so if anything seems unclear or hard to understand, please point it out, and i’ll try and correct it/make it clearer. 

Point 1: involving nonconsenting strangers in kink. I agree, that’s bad! But no one was actually talking about doing kinkplay in public at Pride. From what I understood*, it was more about having leather pride at kink, as in like- people wearing leather gear and/or kink gear that isn’t made of leather, and wearing leather pride pins and stuff. Not actually engaging in kinkplay. “There's nothing wrong with indicators of kink in public. Leather gear, badges, flags, that kind of thing.“ That’s exactly what I was referring to, in all honesty. Anything beyond that point is, as you said, involving strangers in your kink without their consent.

However, there’s one thing you said in there that I disagree with.  “Wearing a collar is fine, being on all fours on a leash is really not for public spaces.“

I’d argue that a leash is fine, honestly. Maybe not to be at, I don’t know, a coffeeshop, but at a big busy festival like Pride with a ton of people around, I think something like that has a much higher chance of getting lost in the shuffle. Hands and knees don’t work because, crowds and being at knee height is unsafe, and if I were to take my sub to a place like that I’d be worried she’d get kicked in the face.

Point 2:  “ And I know kink isn't innately sexual, but a lot of it is going to be interpreted that way to someone unfamiliar with the exact scene.“ Again, I get where you’re coming from, but I don’t agree with this either. There’s a lot of elements of kink that people connect with sex, but I think there are also a lot that the vast majority of people haven’t really thought about.** The vast majority of people are not very well educated on kink, and therefore there are a lot of elements of kink that absolutely fly under the radar to vanilla people.  

Also, a secondary aspect of this is that queer people in general tend to be reduced to their sex lives as well, not just kinky people. Straight cis people- especially older people, from my parents’ generation and older- have a tendency to reduce gay men to ‘ew, they have gay sex!’ and lesbians to ‘but how do they have sex? there’s no penis’ and trans people to ‘but how do you have sex with them?’ Reducing kinky people to ‘but they have sex like that?’ is pretty much what they’ve done to the entire rest of the queer community anyway. So I don’t love that argument for the same reason I don’t like things like ‘trans people shouldn’t be allowed at pride, because what if parents of gay or lesbian or bisexual kids see those weirdos and drag their kids off’. It seems like it’s missing a very large part of the history of the community as a whole*** in that particular respect. 

Last point: i just want to call attention to it, I’m not arguing. 

“I really don't think Pride should be designated a place where you should expect to find people performing sex acts randomly scattered about. Not because it's shameful, but because it's something that you need to get people's consent to involve them in.” It’s also illegal to have sex in public. It’s indecent exposure in New York, my home state, and it’s classified as a misdemeanor in many others****. So, you’re definitely not wrong there. 

However, there’s a difference between performing sex acts and making it clear you engage in them without actually having sex. There are a lot of posts around talking about people walking around wearing nothing but pasties over their nipples and thongs and nothing else, or people wearing shirts explicitly talking about sex, or whatever. If you google “pride NYC,” which is what I did because i didnt want to just google “pride parade” and get a ton of canned stock images, you see a lot of pictures of half-naked individuals wearing rainbows. I don’t think that if those people are perfectly alright to do that (and i do believe it should be allowed for people to do so! Pride is for having fun and being proud of your sexuality, so that kind of thing being policed would be a little weird to me) someone wearing a puppy mask or a leash and collar are also just following the trend in their own way. People making sexual assumptions about someone because they’re dressing in a sexual manner or wearing things that imply sexual actions are the ones making those assumptions. The people wearing those things could have chosen not to, but I don’t think they should be barred for choosing to wear them. 

Again, I’m not sure I covered everything, so feel free to point it out if I fucked something up, and I also am not sure any of this is going to make even a little bit of sense to anyone that’s not me, lol, so if this is a whole bunch of completely confusing ramblings, feel free to let me know and I’ll take another stab at it tomorrow when my head hopefully feels less foggy. 

----

*And I might have been wrong. I’m not discounting that. I can be wrong, I’m only human, and my understanding of things might not be 100% accurate. 

**By this I mean like the difference between calling someone Daddy (overtly kinky overtones because it’s become a wildly popular thing in media) vs things like asking for permission for small things or waiting for their Dom to give them a go ahead before taking an action, which is more inherently kinky than just using a title (in my opinion, again, this is all in my opinion) but tends to just strike as a little weird

***i wasn’t around for very much of it. I was born in 2001. But I’ve spent a long time following a bunch of angry older folks on here who every now and again go ‘wow you guys clearly dont remember what it was like in the 80s/90s/are being incredibly reductive, read these pieces from the 50s and 60s’, and I feel like i have a slightly better view on some of these things than a lot of the people I see on here. Naturally, though, I might be wrong about parts, and if I’m misrepresenting something, feel free to send me reading materials

****I did a google search, and the first thing i saw said, verbatim, “ Public Sex is a Misdemeanor. In most states, the laws that criminalize public sex make it a misdemeanor crime. Some state laws explicitly criminalize public sexual activity. Other laws are broader and cover a variety of indecent or lewd conduct.“ The full source can be found here: [x]

[parvinasseaynk72insurance-blog]

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