#is problematic. because they’re the only mlm couple on the show

[lycanpunk666]

I kinda want to put this one post underwater but I don’t have enough sources for a counter argument

[spicyicymeloncat]

I couldn’t respond earlier bc I was out but THIS

THIIIIIIISSSSS

WHY ARE MOST OF THE FANDOMS IM IN LIKE THIS.

THIS IS LIKE MY MAIN GRIPE WITH FANDOM (I’m in hater mode constantly because of this)

Long ranty post incoming, warning for opinions, discussion of sexism and brief discussion with “problematic ships”

Writers will show up and give you the most detailed world and people will have shipping wars for no reason.

And like I am in the boat of “enjoy fandom however you like, it’s your blog your content do what you want” but it’s disheartening when you’re on a tag for a franchise and none of the content is real or true or about the show and it just leads to a lot of other unpleasant problems with fandom. It’s fine if you do enjoy some of the things I’m about to complain about but the issue for me is when it completely dominates fandom bc it’s just incredibly boring to me personally.

AND DISCLAIMER. I do like shipping! Just not only shipping. It’s like butter. I like butter in my sandwiches but not tons of it on its own. I want the cheese or ham or lettuce and bread in my sandwich too. I’d like to enjoy the whole sandwich and the whole media franchise.

BUT LIKE CAN WE PLEASE talk about the huge mischaracterising and flanderisation that happens when people care more about a specific relationship dynamic and basically make content for that but with the costume of a specific fandom as long there’s a single hint of that happening. Like people just like a ship trope and they slap any old character onto it.

And it’s always the same fucking “they’re divorced <3” like I get it you like divorced old men (examples: the Magnus archives, Lego monkie kid) . And yknow I feel like all the fandoms I’m in have just a mlm couple and sometimes that’s the entire fanbase (examples: see above, Zelda, project sekai). Which at times feels a lot like a normalised version of just yaoi fangirling which has a lot of weird implications for society.

And also can we talk about women. Because whilst most fandoms tend to have THE MLM tm ship, sometimes fandoms have favourite men characters who don’t have to be shipped in order to be popular. But most women in the fandoms I’m in seem to only be popular because they can be shipped and this is such dated behaviour. (Example: Skylor vs Morro from Ninjago, again 80% of the cast of project sekai it makes me so mad). Like fandom only know horny or haunted by trauma fr fr /hj.

And like yknow, there’s also the normal amount of passive misogyny as a factor, such as women just being less popular in general (the Magnus archives has popular NON CANON ship of Elias and Peter which has no excuse of being so popular in comparison the two main cast canon couples of Melanie and Georgie or Basira and Daisy (ofc it makes sense that Jon and Martin are popular bc they’re the main main characters)

Like sometimes it feels like fandom is so romance oriented that women are simplified into their romanceability and they see this treatment much more than men (but this defo does happen to men and non binary people too but in general these are patterns). Also there’s also the immense woman hate when a piece of media has been implying a het romance but the fandom likes the gay ship more. I’ve seen this happen with Nya from Ninjago, this is basically happening with Yona from totk (and I’m going mad over it).

And speaking of romance orientated things, rip to anyone who looks into a hc tag and it’s entirely flooded with x reader and in like gentlest way possible all of those posts are not very in character and I guess they aren’t supposed to be, they’re just supposed to look dateable but like you see why that can be annoying right. Like I wish we had literally any other kind of headcanon. I wanna know a characters food preferences, I wanna know their medical history, I wanna know what kind of music they like or if their bilingual or what subjects they’d study at school. I want a description of literally any other relationship other than romantic.

But. But. The biggest rest in peace goes to fandoms where they’re main character roster is all sibling dynamics. My bestie is in the dc fandom and tmnt and like. Rip. Disastrous and terrifying. Deepest condolences. An entirely sibling cast combined with people determined to ship everything under the sun leads to unsavoury concepts. And yknow it could’ve been avoided if people realised that other relationships existed. And btw I said at the top that I think it’s fine to enjoy some things I complain about, this one doesn’t count. If you’re out here specifically glorifying and romanticising child relationships , sibling relationships or abuse, then you need to change your mindset. I don’t wanna get into the pro/anti bs, but like if you’re out here with the intent on saying that those relationships are perfectly fine, then I suggest getting therapy or something.

Other than that, generally it does frustrate me when it feels like a franchise is wasted on a majority of its fanbase. I have this same problem with tumblr sexymen, the jokes are funny but the actual unironic simping for a mischaracterisation really irks me, bc I just don’t like “horny” being an excuse to throw an entire franchise in the bin. Which is why I was so irrationally angry at people rehydrating Ganondorf from totk after only seeing the first teaser trailer. Also related, but I actually have the lmk macaque tags blocked because he was every other post and people mischaracterised him (imo) as hell he was the fandoms emo kitty cat (imo) and I do not care for it actually.

But I guess the solution is to be the change you wish to see in the world, so I’ll just come up with the headcanons and the content myself I guess. Bc I do believe ppl should enjoy how they want (barring supporting ickiness) even if I privately think that that character would not fucking say that. This is more of just a vent of why sometimes the fandom tag can be annoying to me, rather than telling people they should change bc I’m angry.

Sorry if I am being super blunt and mean (I started writing this and then life happens and suddenly you’re a little too angry :p), this is ofc all my own opinion.

Ps. I will note, I think Ninjago is one of the least ship dominated fandoms I’ve been in compared to the others. Like Ik there’s a lot non ship content and more hc in my experience at least. Like I don’t think as many characters get flanderised to the extent of my other fandoms. It’s not like it doesn’t happen but I appreciate the lessened severity of it (I might just be following cool ppl). And not saying there isn’t a wide variety of non ship content in other franchises, Ninjago just sticks out to me rn ig lol.

it sucks SO hard being one of the small minority in any fandom who couldn't care less about the ships present, and who really cares more for the lore than anything.

I dont CARE about new ship fuel youve found I wanna discuss why this super cool mystical thing has been secretly going on and what the fuck it means !!!!

[soupthatistohot]

Why do I write primarily mlm fanfic?

This was something I asked myself the other day. I am a girl, I think I'm queer (but I am attracted to men, whatever I am), so why do I fixate on mlm relationships? Why do I never feel compelled to write wlw or even just some good 'ol straight stuff? I brought this up to a few friends of mine who also watch anime. One of them said that it’s because lots of popular media only really focuses on developing their male characters well, and I think this to be a very suitable explanation (as well as the fact that I’m queer and thus gravitate towards queer stories).

Take Sk8 the Infinity for example. I could count the number of female characters in this anime on one hand, and one of them is a robot. The others are supporting roles who only serve to support the male main characters. I love Sk8 very much, and with the possibility of a 2nd season I’d love to see a prominent, well-developed female character (but if they make her Reki’s love interest I will literally stab someone). But as the anime stands right now, there are no female characters that aren't just basically plot devices.

Another show I love dearly, Yuri!!! on Ice, is much the same. While there can be more of an argument made here because 1) competitive figure skating is split up between men and women, and 2) I believe that the story Yuuri and Victor is absolutely meant to be a romance, so having the two men as the focus is somewhat necessary, there's an overwhelming lack of fleshed-out women in the story. All the female characters are supporting members that only exist for the benefit of male characters. Yuuko and Minako support Yuuri, Lilia exists so Yuri P. can improve, Mila is just... kind of there, and Sara's whole character is centered around her brother being overprotective of her.

Okay, so let's look at something a little less... fruity. Horimiya. I've only watched the anime, so if there's stuff I miss from not having read the manga (yet), please forgive me. I still think this is a valid perspective, though, because if there's female development that the creators decided was so unimportant that it could be cut, that still supports my point here. In my opinion, Miyamura is a lot more developed than Hori. He has his tragic backstory of being a loner, and having his secret piercings and tattoos and all that. A lot of the story ends up focusing on his side of things... despite the fact that Hori is the protagonist. The story follows her perspective for the most part, we learn things about Miyamura as she does, yet I feel like she's a bit dull. She has a uncommon home life and has to take care of her younger brother, that's her big bad secret? I get that it's kind of unexpected since she's the pretty, perfect, popular girl, but I still feel like it's a tad anticlimactic. It's hardly ever addressed beyond the first few episodes, too, and it just kind of exists as a fact within the story. Even beyond our main couple, it seems like the other female characters development and stories are all focused on the boy they're interested in (except for Sawada, but she's there for like a couple of episodes and then doesn't really show up all that much again... and her crush on Hori is handled really weird, I didn't exactly love it). Remi's entire character is pretty much centered around her boyfriend, and Sakura and Yuki are basically competing for Toru. Meanwhile, the guys have story beats themed around the girls they're interested in, but I feel like it's not as obsessive or dramatic as how the girls are depicted.

So, we're given these female characters, who are really watered-down and honestly kind of boring, and we're not super compelled to write about them. When we are given flat female characters, there's nothing to work with. It's more fun to use the characters who have had development and play around with the "what ifs" and our own personal headcannons. The characters who get this special treatment are primarily male. And while I commend a lot of shows for developing their male characters in such a way that doesn't exactly fit with society's idea of masculinity (ex: Reki's insecurities and depression, Yuuri's anxiety and femininity, Miyamura's isolation and depression), in the end these characters are still boys, men, males.

I also think mlm is so prominent because of both straight girls and queer people. For straight girls, it can often be fetishization (forgive my generalizing, I'm sure not all straight girls are like that, but an overwhelming amount definitely are). I think one of the best examples I can give for this is Phan. This is a bit different since it's not anime, but instead real people, but if anything that really drives home the point even more. The way Dan and Phil were (and probably still are) treated in the fandom internet space is disturbing, to say the least. Their audience, while much of it was queer, was also made up of an overwhelming amount of heterosexual girls who not only shipped them intensely, but also often sexualized them. And look, there's nothing inherently wrong with being a straight girl and writing smut, but it gets to a point where it can be kind of weird if its excessive. Like, if that's all the relationship is really about, and if the people you're writing about are real human beings, that's definitely overstepping. I will admit that I had a Wattpad and that I wrote Phanfic way back when, and this is something I'm not exactly proud of. Granted, I did not write anything explicit, it was still super weird, whether or not I was queer. And I'm not saying all the problematic aspects of the Phandom were because of straight girls, because what I contributed was arguably problematic, and I did not identify as straight at the time. At the same time, though, there were straight girls who wrote exclusively smut (or "lemons" as they might've been referred to at the time). There were those who analyzed every post, every bit of information they could find about these men on the internet. They obsessed over the fact that they occasionally shared clothes (which is fairly common for roomates of similar sizes to do), and gathered evidence to support the theory that they shared a bed. It was bad. It was invasive, and it got to the point where it wasn't about the people, it was about the fetishized fantasy these girls made up in their heads about these real, actual men.

Dan and Phil's online presence kind of disappeared for a few years... and I don't blame them.

Getting back on track, mlm is prominent for queer people because it's the LGBT representation they so desperately want to see actualized in media. If a show doesn't make their favorite queer ship canon (and they often don't), they'll do it themselves! That's what fanfic is for! I also know that queer people project onto these characters a lot, and that writing about them is almost like a form of therapy. They see these characters as queer, and they see themselves in these characters, so they write about these characters experiencing similar emotions to them. The thing is, the most compelling characters are male, so those are the characters they end up focusing on, even if the person in question is strictly sapphic. My best example is how I project onto Reki. Personally, I end up thinking of him as (and thus end up writing him as) having some internalized homophobia around being bisexual. That's literally what I am currently going through. I can't project this onto any of the female characters in Sk8, because I couldn't see them going through this experience because they're not developed enough to.

Despite all of this, I still enjoy all of the shows I mention a lot. I think it's just an interesting topic that I was thinking about. I'm not trying to bash anything that I used as an example, these were just my personal observations based off of what I know about these shows and their fandoms. I do, though, believe shipping real people isn't super cool, and I stand by that as someone who used to do it. I'm not going to stop you... I just think it's intrusive and inappropriate to pretend like you know enough about influencers to dictate who they should be involved with romantically. Their love life is, frankly, none of your damn business.

So, long story short, we should make anime (and popular media in general) less misogynistic.

(Also, please leave Dan and Phil alone, they deserve privacy)

[thelucyverse]

So, about the representation of Joe/Nicky vs. Andy/Quynh in the Old Guard fandom

I know that some people have already made posts about this, don't remember them all, amongst others @inheritor-of-memories here (agree with all you said), but I thought I'd also give my input. In the TOG fandom, Kaysanova is definitely the most popular ship- both bc mlm tends to be more popular for several reasons that we won't get into too deeply here and because they're actually visibly a couple in the movie canon as opposed to comics only, and of course Quynh only has like two minutes of screen time (and it is a cute ship in general, I actually quite like Joe/Nicky too, Andy/Quynh is just my personal fav).

Now, being a more popular ship isn't a crime, even though it's frustrating for many wlws to see us so underrepresented. What's even more frustrating than that, however, is the treatment of Andy/Quynh in the stories written by the Kaysanova fanbase.

For example, Tusk mentioned in their post how in AUs where Joe or Nicky is caught in the iron coffin, the other man usually keeps searching until he finds him. Now, that alone is nothing bad- it's not very realistic to keep searching for hundreds of years, which is why the canon is different, but then fanfiction are often unrealistic fluff, and I don't begrudge the JoeNicky fandom that, the same way I'm not against AUs where Andy keeps looking for Quynh until she finds her. However, quite often the same people who write Kaysanova as the ones that keep looking don't do the same for Andromaquynh... And that's where it gets problematic.

Not just in the search for whoever is the drowning one in the story, but in the depiction of their relationship in general, the Kaysanova fandom often shows Andy and Quynh as a somehow lesser love than the love Joe and Nicky share- even though Andromaquynh have been together for literal millennia while Kaysanova have only known each other for centuries and did not have what one would call a meet-cute. Sure Andy has rough and angry moments in the film- but she also smiles and laughs when she is with her family, wouldn't that aspect of her become even stronger when she has Quynh back? Why do so many write them as a toxic relationship or something that is barely even there?

What's also really frustrating as an Andy/Quynh shipper is to go onto their tag on ao3 and get bombarded with Joe/Nicky fics where Andromache and Quynh are mentioned in maybe one chapter if at all- often it's just past!Andy/Quynh or they are mentioned to be together off-screen. Now, I could search for otp:true, but then I would miss out on the fics where there are several relationships while Andromaquynh are actually written about too, and with as little content as there is for the ship I don't want to miss out on that. So please, only tag a ship if it's really a story about said ship! You can add an 'other relationships' tag or 'background Andy/Quynh' as an additional tag if you want to warn people that they're in it too, but not as a relationship tag! If you're unsure whether your story should be tagged for the ship or not, maybe ask someone who actually ships it.

I know often things are done and written with only subconscious decisions taking place and I am not mad at anyone in particular, I just hope that any Kaysanova writers who see this try to make it easier for the Andromaquynh shippers in the future!

Tl,dr: please don't tag something as Andy/Quynh when they are only visible for half a paragraph or even not at all, and think about the way you depict them when you do write about them!

Tagging @thirst-teenth @bettylove @cryhardanddanceharder @badwolfkaily @andy-the-scythian @morallygreywaren @emotionallycompromisedrobots @justqueeerious @daniwouldnever because I think you might be interested in this! Lmk if I guessed wrong/ you want me to remove the tag, I left it under the readmore on purpose to keep you save from potential shitstorms.

And @inheritor-of-memories I know you already made a public post about the topic so I thought you wouldn't mind, but you too do let me know if you want me to remove the mention!

[adorpheus]

on fujoshi and fetishization

Lately, more and more, both here on tumblr and on other sites, I keep seeing people spew unfiltered hatred at fujoshi - that is, women who like mlm content such as gay fanfic and fanart featuring men with other men. And I don’t mean like a specific type of fujoshi, like the ones who are genuinely being weird about it, but just like a general hatred for girls (but especially straight identifying girls) who express love for gay romance.

I hate to break this to you all, but women (including straight women!) actually are allowed to like mlm fanfiction and fanart, even enthusiastically so. A woman simply expressing her love of gay fanfic, even if it is in kind of a cringey way or a way that you personally don’t like, is NOT automatically fetishization.

I’ve been on the receiving end of fetishization for my entire life, from a very young age, as many black and brown folx have, so I consider myself pretty well acquainted with how it works. Fetishization isn’t just like, being really into drawings of boys kissing, or whatever the fuck y’all are trying to imply on this god forsaken site. 

Fetishization is complicated imo, and can encompass a lot of things, such as (but not limited to):

1 - dehumanization, e.g. viewing a group of people as sexual objects who exist purely for entertainment purposes, rather than acknowledging them as actual people who deserve respect and rights

and

2 - projecting certain assumptions onto said people based on their race/sexuality/whatever is being fetishized. These assumptions are often, but not always, sexual in nature (like the idea that black people in general are more sexual than other races, etc etc etc).

I’m going to use myself as an example to illustrate my point. Please note this isn’t the best or most nuanced example, but it is the most simplistic. A white person finding me attractive and respectfully appreciating my black features as part of what makes me beautiful is not, on its own, fetishization. A white person finding me attractive solely or mostly because I’m a PoC is now in fetishization territory. Similarly, assuming I’m dominant because of my blackness (like saying “step on me mommy” and shit like that) is hella fetishistic. 

That being said, theres definitely a difference between how fetishization works in real life with real people, and how it shows up in fandom. 

Fetishization manifests in many different ways in fandom, but most commonly on the mlm side of things, I personally see it appear as conservative (or centrist) women who love the idea of two men together, but don’t actually like gay people, and don’t necessarily think LGBT+ people deserve rights (or “special treatment” as its sometimes dog whistled). These women view queer men as sexual objects for entertainment rather than an actual group of people who deserve to be protected from systemic oppression. I’ve noticed that they often don’t even think of the men they “ship” together as actually being gay, and may even express disgust at the idea of a character in an mlm ship being headcanon’d gay. In case its not obvious, this is pretty much exactly the same way a lot of cishet men fetishize lesbians (they see “lesbian” as a porn category, rather than like, what actual LGBT people think of when we read the word lesbian). There’s a pretty popular viral tweet thread going around where someone explains seeing this trend of conservative women who like mlm stuff, and I have also personally witnessed this phenomenon myself in more than one fandom. 

The funny thing is, maybe its just me buuuut.... The place I see this particular kind of fetishization happen most is not in the anime/BL fandom, from which the term fujoshi originates - I actually see these type of women way way more in western fandom spaces like Supernatural, Harry Potter, and Hannibal. I can’t stress this enough, there’s a shocking amount of people who are like, straight up trump supporters in these fandoms. If you want to experience it, try joining a Hannigram or Destiel group on facebook and you will probably encounter one eventually especially if you happen to be living through a major historical event. Like these women probably wouldn’t even be considered “fujoshi”, because that term doesn’t really apply to them given they aren’t in the BL/anime fandom, yet they’re the ones I personally see actually doing the most harm.

Of course this isn’t the ONLY kind of fetishizing woman in the mlm/BL world, there are other ways fetishization shows up, but this is the most toxic kind that I see.

A girl just being really into BL or whatever may be “cringe” to you, or she may be expressing her love for BL in a “cringey” way, but a straight woman really enjoying BL is not, on its own, somehow inherently fetishization. Yes, sometimes teenage girls act kind of cringe about how much they like BL and that might be annoying to you, but its not necessarily ~problematic~. 

That being said, IT NEEDS BE REMARKED that a lot of the “fujoshi” that you all hate so deeply, are actually closeted trans men or nonbinary people who haven’t yet come to terms with their gender identity, or are otherwise just NOT cishet. I know because I was one of these closeted people for years, and I honestly think tumblr and the cultural obsession around purity is one of the many reasons I was closeted so deeply for so long. STORYTIME LOL!!! In my early adolescence, I was a sort of proto “fujoshi”. I identified as a bi girl who was mostly attracted to men, or as most (biphobic) people called it, “practically straight”. I wrote and read “slash” fanfic and looked at as well as drew my own fanart. We didn’t use the term fujoshi back then, but that’s definitely how I could have been described. I was obsessed with yaoi, BL, whatever you want to call it, to a cringe-inducing degree. I really struggled to relate to most het romances, so when I first discovered yaoi fanfics (as we called them at the time), I fell in love and felt like I finally found the type of romance content that was made for me. I didn’t know exactly why, I just knew it hit different. LGBT+ fanart and fanfiction brought me an immense amount of joy, and I didn’t really think too hard about why.

At some point, in my early 20s, after reading lots of discourse™ here on tumblr and other places like twitter, I started to get the sinking feeling that my passion for gay fanfiction was ~problematic~. I had always felt a sense of guilt for being into mlm content, because literally anyone who found out I liked BL (especially the men I dated) shamed me for liking it all the fucking time (which btw is literally just homophobic, like can we talk about that?). In addition to THAT bullshit, now I’m seeing posts telling me that girls who like BL are cringey gross fetishists who inspire rage and should go die? 

Let me tell you, I internalized the fuck out of messages like this. I desperately wanted to avoid being ~problematic~. At the time, I thought being problematic was like the worst thing you could be. I was terrified of being “cancelled”, before canceling was even really a thing. I thought to myself, “oh my god, I’m gross for liking this stuff? I should stop.” I beat myself up over this. I wanted so badly to be accepted, and to be deemed a Good Person by the internet and society at large.

I tried to shape up and become a good ally (lmfao). I stopped writing fanfic and deleted all the ones I was working on at the time. I made a concerted effort to assimilate into cishet culture, including trying to indulge myself more deeply in the few fandoms I could find that had het content I did enjoy (Buffy, True Blood, Pretty Little Liars, etc). I would occasionally look at BL/fanfic/etc in private, but then I would repress my interest in it and not look for a while. Instead I would look at women in straight relationships, and create extremely heterosexual Couple Goals pinterest boards, and try to figure out how I could become more like these women, so I, too, could be loved someday. 

This cycle of repression lasted like eight years. Throughout it all, I was performing womanhood to the best of my ability and trying to become a woman that was worthy of being in a relationship. I went in and out of several “straight” relationships, wondering why they didn’t make me feel the way reading fanfic did. Most of all, I couldn’t figure out why straight intimacy didn’t work for me. I just didn’t enjoy it. I always preferred looking at or making gay fanfiction/fanart over actual intimacy with men in real life. 

Eventually, I stumbled upon a trans coming out video that someone I was following posted online, my egg started to crack, and to make an extremely long story short, after like 3 years of introspection and many gender panic attacks that I still experience to this day, I realized that I’m uh... MAYBE... NOT CIS..!? :|

I truly believe if I had just been ALLOWED TO LIKE GAY STUFF WITHOUT BEING SHAMED FOR IT, I probably would have realized I was trans way way sooner. Because for me, indulging in my love of gay romance and writing gay fanfic wasn’t me being a weirdo fetishist, it was actually me exploring my own gender identity. It is what helped me come to terms with being a nonbinary trans boy.

Not everyone realizes they are trans at age 2 or whatever the fuck. Sometimes you have to go through a cringey fujoshi phase and multiple existential crises to realize how fucking gay you are AND THATS FINE.

And one more thing - can we just be real here? 

A lot of anti-fujoshi sentiment is literally just misogyny. omg please realize this. Its “women aren’t allowed to enjoy things” but, like... with gay fanfics. Some of the anti-fujoshi posts I see come across my dash are clearly ppl projecting a caricature they invented in their head of a demonic fujoshi fetishist onto any woman who expresses what they consider to be a little too much enthusiasm for gay content and then using their perception of that individual as an excuse to justify their disdain for any women, especially straight women, ‘invading’ their ~oh so exclusive~ queer fandom spaces.

 god get over yrselfs this is gatekeeping by another name

idk why i spent so long writing this no one is even going to read it, does anyone even still use this site

*EDIT: HOLY SHIT WHEN DOING RESEARCH FOR THIS POST I FOUND OUT THAT Y-GALLERY IS BACK OMG!!! 

[voxofthevoid]

Taking It Up The Ass Isn’t Character Growth - A Rant

So, in response to an ask a while back, I said I had a rant brewing on fandom and sex positions, and well, a lot of you wanted to see it, so here you go. You literally asked for it.

Disclaimer: This is going to talk a lot about top/bottom roles in slash fic and fandom attitude towards them and is heavily filtered through the lens of my own tastes and experiences with fandom. I’d also like to be upfront that I am 100% in favor of people writing whatever fictional content they want, and it’s not what fandom does with characters that bothers me but rather how that translates into attitudes towards real, live people. Also, this is the essay version of a slow burn AU because I regurgitate my entire fandom history before getting to the point. Beware.

I discovered fan-fiction around a decade ago, had no clue what the hell it was, got hooked and dived deeper. I started participating in fandom circa 2013, and I was fairly young and also completely inexperienced both sexually and romantically. The fandom in question was Hannibal and my ship of choice was Hannibal/Will. It was/is a very chill fandom in general, but we had our drama. And chief among the contentious topics was—you guessed it—the top/bottom debate. I can’t actually remember any other topic that was discussed and argued for so ardently in that fandom, at least in those days. Even after I drifted away, I came across a few posts on the matter.

Generally, you had two camps—people who supported strict roles and those who were in favor of switching*. And because we’re a society plagued by illogical assumptions, the strict role camp mostly had people who thought Mr. Big Bad Cannibal in the Fancy Suits wouldn’t take it up the ass because he’s older, more experienced, more mentally stable, and of course, more ‘dominant’ in personality. Yes, that sentence is chock full of problematic shit. I am aware. Lots of people were aware and argued strongly against attributing top/bottom roles to personality. I don’t remember anyone arguing as enthusiastically for Top Will, but those voices were also there. But the general idea was that assigning strict top/bottom roles to a male/male couple was casting them in a heterosexual mold and thus, the progressive option was to make them switch. Strict roles also garnered comparisons to “yaoi” and uke/seme stereotypes, which was of course bad and fetishizing and we, the Western media fans, of course had to do better. Stealth racism is fun to untangle.

Anyway, I lapped up the woke juice. Partly because I was a baby queer from Buttfuck Nowhere, Asia, who had zero exposure to LGBT+ communities and what queer folks did with each other. Partly because it was the stance taken by most of my favorite writers so it seemed like a good position to emulate.

Emulate it I did. Most discussions I had about this happened in private with the handful of close friends I had in fandom. Where it really showed was in my writing. I made sure to write switching—maybe not in every fic, but then I alternated between fics. Thing is though, I did have a preference. I liked Top Will. I created and consumed a ton of Top Hannibal, and sometimes it was okay, sometimes it was not, but I couldn’t pinpoint why it made me uncomfortable. Back then, I thought I was a cis questioning/bi girl and once again, the impression I got was that not being MLM, having a preference was automatic fetishization. So I tried my best to justify my preferences, to my friends at least. I think what I said was that fandom was skewed towards Top Hannibal, and I liked the opposite because I’m a contrary fuck. Which I am, to be fair, but this was just me desperately trying to figure shit out without being offensive.

That’s the line I touted all the way until 2018, which was when I fucked off to grad school in A City, finally freed of Buttfuck Nowhere and able to actually date. At this point, I was settled in my sexuality (girls only) and questioning my gender (non-binary or trans guy). I had also tentatively figured out during undergrad that I’m an exclusive top and a Dom. Actual attempts at dating cemented that, yes, those are my preferences, about as flexible as a steel rod. Cue motherfucking epiphany over my fanfic tastes.

And see, over these years, I was engaging intermittently with fandom. I dutifully wrote switch couples. I also continued to have rigid tastes and continued to explain it away as being a contrary fuck—to be fair, until Steve/Bucky, my preference did seem to be the opposite of the larger fandom preference. But correlation, as we know, isn’t causation. Until Steve/Bucky, I continued to write versatile couples because I honestly didn’t have the guts to just say I liked it just one way. I do now but even then, I feel compelled to add that it’s because I want to see my own taste reflected in fic, so I write/read the character I relate to as a top, it's not that deep etc. Would I be as forthright if I didn’t have that reason? Would I have such strict preferences in fic if I didn’t have strict preferences IRL? The latter’s a mystery, but the former isn’t—I wouldn’t be because fandom is still entrenched in the same ideas that got me to this point to begin with.

In every fandom I’ve been in, I’ve seen some version of this debate go around. Sometimes, it’s one party saying “why would you write Character X as a bottom, he’s so Reason A” and a reblog chain that insults the OP and/or extols the virtues of switching. Sometimes, it’s a general-ish message that says they don’t understand why people have strict preferences when we all know real gay couples switch. Sometimes, it’s blanket statements that accuse anyone with preferences of fetishizing. Sometimes, it’s the same reasoning that gets you “Character Y is a top because of Reason B” transposed on versatile couples except this takes the form of “they switch because they’re equals.”

Ya’ll, I’m fucking tired.

I have long since lost count of the number of stories I’ve seen where an exclusive top learning bottom and liking it is character growth. Where a character who prefers to bottom taking a turn on top is empowering.

Isolated, these are fine. But I’ve seen enough of such stories that it’s distinctly discomfiting and a major squick. Sometimes a trigger, if I'm too immersed in the story. I’m not going to try and burn an author at the stake because they pissed me off. I am just going to close that window and quietly handle my shit. People can write whatever they want. But this one theme hits too close to home, as you can see from this 1.6k rant.

My friend (also my ex-girlfriend) and I had an all-out bitching session about this the other day. Both of us are kinky fuckers who have rigid, complementary roles we prefer and we have both had our grueling days of struggling to reconcile our sexual tastes with our ideologies precisely because of how these things are frowned upon in conservative and progressive circles. Seeing that in fandom, of all places, is both insulting and exhausting. Topping and bottoming aren’t personality traits. Neither is D/s. It’s sexual preference and power play. It really does not have to be that deep. I am not exorcising childhood trauma using the bodies of women. My partners, former and current, have not been brainwashed by the patriarchy. We will not become better, more complete individuals once I magically stop being a stone top and my partners embrace the joys of a strap-on.

I have, with my own two eyes, seen someone say that in a really committed relationship, of course the couple will switch.

Bullshit.

It’s transparent bullshit. This does not get attributed to cisgender M/F couples. Even when the automatic assumptions of woman = bottom and man = top get addressed, switching isn't presented as the default. No one’s saying “oh, if you really love your husband, you’ll peg him”. I do know butch/femme sapphic couples get their own share of shit. Because it’s all heteronormativity, right? Can’t have any other reason for top/bottom roles.

You have two extremes with “so who’s the woman” on one end and “it’s woke only if they switch” on the other, and as far as I’m concerned, they’re equally damaging. There shouldn’t be a pressure, however subtle, to conform your taste in fiction to some arbitrary idea of progressiveness. People are going to like whatever they want anyway; all this does is create an atmosphere where those likes can’t always be freely expressed without a lot of mental gymnastics. We’re seeing so many versions of this in the pushback against so-called problematic content, but smaller, subtler versions exist too.

Fictional characters aren’t real. They can be whatever you want them to be. And yes, other people will often want them to be the exact opposite of your ideas, but that’s just how things work. Meanwhile, the people behind these usernames? They’re real. No one should be throwing real people under the bus to ‘protect’ characters that don’t exist. Hannibal Lecter doesn’t care whether he gets fucked or dismembered in Author B’s fanfiction, but the discourse that surrounds the dick up his ass? That does affect flesh and blood people.

I am not claiming that this is the only attitude in fandom. Middlegrounds do exist. Plenty of people abide by fic and let fic and there are folks who pipe up to say not every RL queer couple switches. But it’s often the extremes that reach most people. That was certainly my experience, and I’m not the only one.

I don’t really know how to end this post. It is 100% a rant and one that’s been building up for a while. Bottom line is that people’s sexual behavior varies wildly and whenever you attack sexual tastes in fanfic by saying it’s unrealistic - or worse because let’s be real, that’s a very tame word choice - please remember that there’s likely someone out there who practices it.

* I’m using switch and versatile synonymously in this post. It’s mostly concerned with top/bottom debates. A lot of what I’m saying is also echoed in portrayals of and discussions surrounding D/s dynamics, but I’m not addressing that as much for now.  

[molusca]

she apologized for how she handled the situation and apologized for brushing off someone's honest criticisms as hate. what more is she meant to do? throw herself onto a pyre? is she not allowed to feel lousy that this whole thing blew up in her face? because she's an adult and she made a mistake, she's not allowed to be sad or stressed? she's still an imperfect human. apologizing immediately usually means people are still sensitive to their own hurt of being called out because it's fresh and on their mind so it tends to slip into their apology, but if she had waited any longer to compose herself, you guys would probably have an issue with how long she took. also, in aaaaaallll of this, I've have yet to once see what exactly about her work is so problematic? I've read her fic and I personally can't see anything wrong, although I will admit that yes, I'm a white ciswoman but I'd like to think I'm aware of negative tropes. but the only thing touted is "it made an mlm uncomfortable" but HOW??? honestly, I want to know! if anything so I can avoid doing the same thing! how is anyone meant to learn when you're not bringing up these points as often as you're explicitly laying out the problems in her apology and whatnot. I've seen 6 posts about how shit the apology was and for why and I've not once seen the original comment detailing why the fic was problematic, and I've been looking on twit, tumblr, insta, and ao3. if it's been deleted, why isn't anyone stating again and again what's wrong? also, if someone is making fic/art you don't like, don't. interact. with. it. there's tons of stuff on ao3 and twit that I don't like, some of it that I think is disgusting (do you know how many fics there are with keith/kosmos?) and I just scroll past it cause it can't hurt me if I don't read it. there's one artist that's pretty popular on Twitter and I personally really hate they way they draw klance but it's all over my tl. I respect that person's art style and creativeness and keep on moving. other people enjoy it, good for them. and if I start reading something and get surprised with something I dont like, I leave! find people who write things you like and stop engaging with creators who's things you don't like, as far as I know no one is holding a gun to your head making you read problematic fic. also for as much as you rag on her for the words she used to apologize, you don't seem to be considering your own words when offering criticism. if Taylor mistook the person's words as hate, couldn't it have been because the way he worded the complaint was done hatefully? lastly, no one, absolutely no one, is required to talk about world issues when they're running a fandom account,no matter how "big" they are. we all know what's going on in the world, we're surrounded by sad and stressful stories practically 24/7 and if someone isn't, they're probably curating their social feeds to be that way (like you should do when it come to kl content creators you don't like). people sending hate in Taylor's defense are in the wrong I agree, and this isn't hate its critism its a discussion, but Taylor isn't responsible for, how many people did you say? 16k on twit? even if she said hey guys stop, you think they would? she's can't control all those people and expecting her to is nonsense. I see so many younger fans expecting perfection in their fandoms and that just isn't going to happen. yes we should be striving to be better but no one is ever going to be perfect. not you, not me, not the mlm person, not Taylor, not anyone on any side of this argument. the only way to avoid this kind of circular dog piling and hate sending is to better curate your fandom experience by ignore those you have issues with.- 🦛

she apologized for how she handled the situation and apologized for brushing off someone's honest criticisms as hate. what more is she meant to do?

im pretty sure i said its good that she realizes she handled it poorly. but she makes the whole apology about this, doesnt directly talk about the issues and i know someone went to her to talk about it. also, it took her a day to say something about it so it wasnt exactly immediate (in the sense people had already stopped talking about it but that doesnt mean they werent still bothered). the apology was directed at mlm, and i havent seen one saying it felt genuine. of couse she can be hurt but when you apologize to a marginalized group the focus shouldnt be your feelings, but the feelings of the ones you have hurt.

I've have yet to once see what exactly about her work is so problematic?

she admits to be projecting on lance. so she makes him very femine and keith very masculine. and ok, gay couples like that do exist, but she is a woman projecting in this situation so this bothers people. putting mlm in this position is a harmful steriotype, bc it feels very heterosexual. this is a trope, it unfortunately happens a lot and its harmful. women need to be aware of what they are representing when drawing/writing mlm because well, real mlm are going to see it, and no one likes to feel like a fetish to others. and its not our place to question if the criticism is right or wrong when we are not mlm, so if you read this and think “but thats not a problem thats not a fetish etc” well, its not your place to judge that. theres more to it and you probably could get a better answer from a mlm sorry.

if someone is making fic/art you don't like, don't. interact. with. it. there's tons of stuff on ao3 and twit that I don't like, some of it that I think is disgusting (do you know how many fics there are with keith/kosmos?) and I just scroll past it cause it can't hurt me if I don't read it.

please, lets not compare a minority pointing out harmful tropes with. something fucking illegal.

as you said, you are a cis woman, of course its not going to hurt you in this case. but if people are making harmful content its not a simple matter of “dont interact with it” because they will still be promoting it, other people are going to read it, and media influences how we see minorities so of course people will not like when they see bad portrayal of them. also, tumblr sucks so even if you want to just “dont interact with it” its hard because even after blocking you can still cross the content of someone. not sure how it works on twitter but anyway this discussion started on tumblr and tumblr doesnt stop people who were bothered by her to avoid her by blocking.

if Taylor mistook the person's words as hate, couldn't it have been because the way he worded the complaint was done hatefully?

i think she deleted the ask by now, but i dont remember the ask being hateful. i remember someone asking if she was a fujoshi, and another person mentioned that mlm didnt like the way she portrayals klance. i dont remember it being hateful. but again, she apologized for handling it badly. its just that she stops there.

no one, absolutely no one, is required to talk about world issues when they're running a fandom account,no matter how "big" they are. we all know what's going on in the world, we're surrounded by sad and stressful stories practically 24/7 and if someone isn't, they're probably curating their social feeds to be that way

ignoring world issues is a privilege. if someone is able to turn off from all the problems in the world, its a privilige. yes no one should talk aobut it all the time thats not even healthy, but to never talk about it is a privilege. thats what black people are saying, they cant just turn off from racism, so yes they are going to expect white people to do something. online honestly i cant do shit, i dont think anything i reblog here does a difference and i do what i can in my own country, but she has a plataform that could help bring awareness. again, its a privilege to be able to curate your social media to be a perfect happy place.

even if she said hey guys stop, you think they would? she's can't control all those people and expecting her to is nonsense.

maybe they wouldnt, but if people were doing this type of thing in my name, in my defense, i would at least say something about it idk. she cant control them but she makes nothing to show that she disagrees or look for the people being harassed to say something about it.

the only way to avoid this kind of circular dog piling and hate sending is to better curate your fandom experience by ignore those you have issues with.

when it comes to simple things like “i prefer taller lance and i dont like taller keith” yeah, its fine to ignore people who draw taller keith and move on with your life or something like that. but we are talking about mlm, a real group of people, being upset for being portrayed in a harmful and steriotype way. its everywhere in fandom, and in real life. they cant escape from real life, and then they come to fandom where everyone wants some escapism and have to deal with more issues. its tiring

[supernatural-ruined-my-life]

I don’t like them as a couple but how is it incest…… selfcest is not real

I know it's not. It's fiction. But there's something wrong and problematic about it. I think we kind of joke about that being real "incest" because we know is selfcest, in fact. Nevertheless, I think we're mad because disney/marvel green lighted this pairing before anything mlm or wlw... And what's most funny is that they can't compromise hundred percent with this selfcest thing. You can read all the interviews of the cast and crew and how they contradicts each other every time. She's a Loki one moment and suddenly she's not. You follow me? Then they never mentioned Thor, friga, Odin or Laufey. I think it was on purpose. Look, it's like they're trying to deny that the ship is selfcest... But why? Are they afraid of the response of people when they notice how Sylvie and Loki have the same father in different time lines? I think it's bullishit. If you are going to do something do it well. People who watched game of Thrones or dark were very aware of the incest and were okay with it because the plot, HBO, Netflix and people behind the shows, never denied.

And again we know selfcest is not real, but we can only compare in our reality with incest...

[takaraphoenix]

Hey ppl actually do go to jail for imagery of child porn-- aka, loli/shota/etc.

Congratulations, the entire point of the post went over your head. Not entirely sure how, but it did (which... I did predict would happen, so I dunno why I’m surprised).

So, instead of repeating myself, please look at what the US Department of Justice has to say:

To qualify as “child porn”, it must include real human children. And the thing you’re doing there is the problem I was trying to talk about. Tthe point was that running around, screaming “FIRE!” when nothing is burning is not okay. And calling everything you disagree with “child porn!” is not okay. Just because you don’t like it does not make it what it isn’t.

This isn’t a conversation about if it’s wrong to draw elementary schoolers in sexual situations - I’d personally say, yes, it is and I’d happily go without ever encountering that. But you do not get to assign new meaning to words that already have a meaning. And it is, by defintion, not child porn.

Child porn is a serious word, something that was coined to indicate that real, actual, living human children are being harmed. Being abused, being put into sexual situations. It is an alarm word about genuinely the most horrific thing a human can be capable of. That is what that word was coined for.

And people on the internet calling fanwork that displays two teenagers together, who they don’t ship, “child porn” is incomprehensible, because this is a serious real-world issue and you managed to make it about your fucking ships.

This is the conversation we are having here.

We aren’t even talking about examples of lolicon or shota; we were, from the get-go, talking about fictional teenagers getting it on.

And about people calling that “child porn” because that’s A Big Scary Word and they think it makes them sound clever or like they are doing something genuinely morally upstanding by speaking out against it.

While all they’re doing is crying “WOLF!” when there is a puppy-dog in the distance.

This kind of behavior leads to alarm fatigue. At one point, people on tumblr and twitter and whatever other social media sites exist, will come to only think of that time they saw fanart of two cartoon teenagers fucking when they hear “child porn”, because they get so brainwashed by this purity cult. And the real meaning - the above mentioned meaning involving real actual children getting harmed - will be completely lost on them.

They’re appropriating a serious issue to fuel an unnecessary ship war.

That is the problem I was trying to talk about. So, really disappointing to see that the only thing you took away from that was a) ignoring the definition of what child porn is, even though it is so very, very simple I mean honestly it could not be simpler, b) arguing about some rados, without anything to back up the claims, going to jail for “lolicon and shota”, which I honestly wouldn’t even care about, because c) that isn’t what was being talked about to begin with because the entire post was about teenagers.

The conversation we're having is very much about the exact examples I have listed in the orignal post, not the things you mention, if you bothered to continue reading - teenagers involved insexual acts, such as they are depicted in so many movies, TV shows and published books and people win awards for those, no one’s going to jail for owning Riverdale on DVD just because (a lot of) teenagers are having sex in that show; that does not make it child pornography.

The things fandoms call “child porn” are two fictional teenagers being depicted together. But these people don’t like that ship, so this is the Evil Vile Child PornTM. Ain’t nobody throwing a fuss about the masses of fanworks about the canon couples, who are also teens, being depicted in a sexual manner though, or the way canon itself depicts sexual acts between teenagers in graphic ways. It was all about that fanon mlm ship.

So, let me say this again: This is not a conversation about actual child pornography, or what people should go to jail for. This is a conversation about the very vile misuse of a very serious term that doesn’t even mean what these people think it means, just so they can wield it as a weapon in a fight against a fictional relationship between fictional characters that they don’t like.

And that kind of behavior is incredibly problematic.

[projectjasper]

Theory of Love: Review (& General Info)

Summary: Third is a film major, who’s been in love with his best friend Khai since the very first day of university. The problem is, Khai has a rule - he doesn’t date friends. And to make matters worse, he is a terrible player, who’s dated girls from each faculty. Will Third give up on pursuing Khai? Love him from afar? Or will something entirely unexpected happen? (Trailer)

Couples: Two mlm couples - one main, one background.

Running Time: 12 episodes - around 53 minutes each - 10,5 hours in total

Cast (& their Instagram pages): Gun Atthaphan (Third), Off Jumpol (Khai), White Nawat (Two), Mike Chinnarat (Bone), Earth Pirapat (An), Neen Suwanamas (Lyn), Sara Legge (Paan), Foei Patara (Chen), [more].

Where to watch? YouTube

Related Shows: None

My Review:

Rating: 5.5/10

Short review: Considering how I didn’t connect with some of the actors, most of the characters and pretty much all relationships, as well as with the plot overall, I found this BL kind of boring and even annoying at times. There is enough problematic moments here and there, but I wouldn’t say they’re necessarily critical. This is possibly my most subjective review to date, because most things I don’t like about this show just don’t fit me personally. And since it’s not that bad and I know that a lot of people love it, maybe you will too. So at the end of the day, I don’t recommend it, but I’m not saying you should be necessarily staying away from it either. Though, as usual, it’s obviously your own decision to make.

Extended review (under the cut):

Theory of Love is one of those BLs that everyone seems to love. It’s on everyone’s list of favorite BLs of all time, and every character favorites list features at least one person from TOL. Which is why I feel weird about not liking it.

The thing is though, I don’t hate it. I think it’s kind of alright and at times really annoying and problematic, but that’s about it. Mostly, I just don’t care about it. Like at all. And I’m gonna talk about why.

So, the cast of TOL is stellar, in my personal opinion. At least, at face value it is. There’s extremely popular familiar faces, like Off, Gun, Earth, White and Neen. New faces that truly captivated me right away, like Sara, Foei and especially Mike. And, most of them lived up to my expectations. Off is still good, Earth is still as perfect at subtle acting as he’s always been (which is especially helpful this time around), everyone is just truly great. Well, with one exception. And I should’ve probably mentioned this last, because he is generally accepted as one of the best actors not only in GMM, but in the BL industry in general. But, I did not believe Gun at all. And I want to mention that it’s the first time I don’t believe Gun like this. I don’t know what happened in TOL (besides, I’m sure lots of people will disagree with me), but to my mind he wasn’t real as Third at all. I don’t see him being in love with Khai. He says that he is and everything he does confirms it (like literally everything – cute moments and thoughts and looks, all the puzzle pieces are there), but I just don’t see it. And he never really manages to make me feel anything. He cries and breaks down and has a generally terrible time, and with my head I understand that this is all extremely said, but my heart stays still – I don’t feel a thing. And maybe that’s why I never managed to like TOL that much – because I am completely disconnected with the lead. But it is what it is, you know.

The characters in this show once again make me feel conflicted. Third’s personality is far more sarcastic and blunt than other BL mains’ – and I do like that. Khai, on the other hand, was first unlikable to me and like really annoying, and then after feeling a little bad for him closer to the end, my pity sort of cancelled out my hate and they met in the middle, making me just not care for him at all. They do try to give background characters a little more depth just by having one-two conversations with them alone, but it feels kind of forced – like they knew they needed to make them more real, but they did it so mechanically that they ended up being even more fake. Thus, the most memorable and likable characters to me ended up being the ones we know the least about – An and Chen.

The friendships in this drama are good and bad all at the same time. I don’t think I have to mention that Khai is a terrible friend, but it’s meant to be that way, so that was handled perfectly. I was never really sure why anyone was friends with him in the first place (or at least anyone who isn’t Third, because love is blind), but that happens sometimes – we get stuck with shitty people, so whatever. I can see how that could happen. Otherwise, friendship in TOL is kind of a one-way train. It’s a great modern train with all luxuries, but it only goes one way. What I mean by that is all background characters like Two, Bone, An and Chen are amazing friends to Khai and/or Third. Their relationship is truly detailed, they apologize, help, notice things, talk - just do things friends do. But, Khai and Third don’t return the favor. And I could understand why that happens with someone like Chen or even An – they aren’t really POV characters in any instance in the show. But, Bone and Two have their own real storylines and things happening in their lives, which the viewer follows and is invested in. But Khai and Third don’t know about them, because they just never even ask how their friends are doing. Which sucks.

The romantic relationships in this show are (mostly) a mess. Khai and Third’s “bond” is nowhere near being profound – it’s toxic, damaging and disappointing. At the end they do get together and “Yay!” I guess, but I don’t see them truly resolving their issues (or realistically staying together for long). For example, Third clearly still doesn’t trust Khai and it’s mentioned for the drama, but then it’s never truly resolved. Bone is thrust into this weird thing with his professor – and thank gods he didn’t end up with her, but it was still really unnecessary in my opinion. An and Two are sort of a beam of light in this whole relationship mess. Overall, they have a pretty good storyline – its complicated enough and simple enough in all the right places. There are things that are kind of related to An and Two that kind of make me mad – for example, the way Two tries approaching Lyn. But, mostly it’s good. I especially liked how their connection was subtly established from the very beginning – and looking back at it (or rewatching it), you can see some clear signs.

The overall plot is kind of good. It can be funny and even self-aware at times, though there are a lot of unrealistic, stupid, nonsensical things there as well. The only real specific criticism I have is that background storylines don’t seem to exist outside of background storylines. There is a lot of examples with AnTwo specifically. The KhaiThird and AnTwo plots are sort of intertwined, because An is Third’s friend, as well as Khai’s supposed rival (because everyone thinks An is approaching Third), and obviously Two is Khai and Third’s friend, who is directly involved in their relationship. So, there are moments when – for example – Khai is jealous of Third and An, Two is there (at the time, already realizing he feels something for An, or that he is at least important to him), but he is completely unfazed, as if this doesn’t have anything to do with him at all. Which, even if he was approaching it all “maturely” or trying to hide his real feelings, there would still be some sort of minor reaction. And there’s just none.

The theme of someone confidently believing in something and it not being true is present multiple times in this show. And usually, when a story does that, it’s quite complicated. All the facts are carefully established so that the viewer believes the lie, and then when the truth is revealed, the viewer looks back on the story and sees all the clear clues to the truth that were given, as well as just how and why they’ve misinterpreted every detail that led them to believe the lie. This all is very hard work that requires some smart, careful planning. Which TOL didn’t do. An truly seems to be into Third and there is no other way to interpret some of the things he does with him, and Khai truly does act really flirty with Third in the beginning, which can only be interpreted as him trying to approach Third, which was not true at the time. (Even if he subconsciously liked him, that was legit planned flirting – not subtle things that could reveal his true feelings). It’s clear that this is all done for the drama with all disregard to why this trope is usually used. And there is many moments where something really nonsensical and completely inexplicable happens just to further the drama. TOL is drenched in plotlines like that – and there is nothing I hate more than unnecessary drama.

The movie theme is present throughout the whole show – both directly and indirectly. They do connect everything with movies quite well, and the cinematography choices are more meaningful than they usually are. The way shots are set up, the subtle details that are hidden in camera work and setting specifically – all of it is quite artistic and careful, which makes me think it was done specifically because of the relating themes of movie making in the show itself. The only thing I didn’t really like was how much the things that were happening was compared to “how as if it was all just a movie”. It was ironic the first couple of times, but stupid and repetitive the next hundred.

LGBTQ+ issues aren’t really touched upon in the show. But, when they kind of are – it ain’t it chief. Khai’s friend telling him he couldn’t possibly imagine “a dude like him being into another dude”, Khai feeling uncomfortable with imagining a date with Third similar to the ones he takes his girlfriends to, and the ever present intimacy problem, which mostly belongs to AnTwo here (boyfriends kiss, GMM – they do). Now in certain context or with some explanation, these might’ve been better, but there is no good context or explanation here – it’s just Bad.

There’s quite a few other problematic moments in this show. A lot of them are connected with Khai and Third. For example, Khai physically pins Third down when he’s trying to talk to him, while Third cries and screams to let him go. After receiving a “no” over and over again, Khai asks Third to be his boyfriend once again – this time in a public place, making a big deal out of it, with everyone chanting “yes”. Khai also admits that he sees all the girls he’s with as an object – which in the context is positioned against Third, who he sees as a person. It’s made to look romantic and special, but it’s just some kind of a new fucked up version of “you’re not like other girls”. Also, and this is slightly less serious but very annoying to me, Bone’s new girlfriend was introduced at the very end of the series. And by introduced, I mean “Here’s a girl, she’s Bone’s girl” – and that’s the entirety of the introduction. It has no value or meaning to the viewer and seems to send a message that Bone’s story could only have a happy ending, if he ended up in a relationship as well, which is obviously a shitty fucking message. I would’ve preferred him staying single.

Finally, talking about some small details that caught my attention. The main quartet is a very stereotypical teen movie gang, but I think that’s intentional and it does fit well. They’re also third and forth years, which is kind of unusual for BLs, so that’s pretty cool. I do love the style – I want all their outfits and hairstyles like right now. The sound choices are not always the best, but the music can be pretty nice. There’s quite a few metaphors here and there – and they’re actually good. But, there’s not nearly enough attention to detail sometimes. The kisses are really good – no doubt about that here. And, surprisingly, they address the fact that kissing someone out of the blue is not ok multiple times, which is really great (and – let’s be fair – pretty unexpected, which makes it even better).

Overall, as I’ve said before, I don’t really hate this show. Despite criticizing it, I mostly just don’t care for it. It isn’t a BL I would recommend to someone, but if I was actually asked, if someone should watch this specific BL – I would say “Sure, why not”. It’s not that bad and I know that a lot of people love it, so maybe you will too. So at the end of the day, I don’t recommend it, but I’m not saying you should be necessarily staying away from it either. Though, as usual, it’s obviously your own decision to make.

[petekaos]

rahul I hope it's okay if I send you this little rant. okay so I've tried to read some thai novels when I was watching the corresponding series (like tol) and I'm gonna be honest with you, I have read better books. I'm sure it's partly the translation's fault and I loved the series, but the books sometimes make me wonder. I don't really want to judge the people who wrote them because they gave us some great characters. +

I just feel like the producers have found the goose that lays golden eggs (don't even know if thats a saying in english) and they will produce anything, just for profit. really it's not that I mind that it's just that at the same time they're afraid to break the pattern and produce a gl series for example. every year we get some refreshing new series (like what I imagine a tale of a thousand stars to be), but I feel like this industry has so much more potential. +

and anyway I wish you were thai because I know you'd write something very good and beautiful and we'd all die if it became a series (or maybe you wouldn't because you wouldn't be the same person) (but anyway, I fully support you and your ideas) and one last thing. I lowkey wish there were more mlm series/movies all over the world because I know we all crave to see ourselves and our culture represented alongside with our sexuality and struggles. sorry for this. just some night thoughts. the end.

hiii nonnie! of course it’s okay for you to send me rants, i’m always here to listen! and yeah, i agree with you, some of the books to series produced by gmmtv are really... not it. there’s a lot of incest and rape and other problematic elements, but even if there’s none of that, a lot of them... are okay books. which is fine, y’know, not every book has to be revolutionary! and yeah, i feel you. we have to remember that novels are not always easily translated to screen, and that’s why you have to hire screenwriters that can adapt the dialogue and plot of the book to screen, which can prove difficult every now and then. gmmtv do tend to produce similar things (especially when it comes to bl... oh when will we be free of the hs/uni series) and every once in a while, we do see one that breaks the pattern! i think the biggest problem is that we tend to see or watch gmmtv series get popular and while they don’t have a complete... monopoly over the bl industry, their voice is very loud and their promos lead us to watch basically only gmmtv or linetv series. there are... other miniseries or shows that provide a fresh and new concept (like gameboys or ingredients the series!) but aren’t as well-produced or as long due to financial constraints.

in the end... an industry is an industry and business is business :/ gmmtv especially does whatever it can to make money, which is why you still see kr*st and singto promoting things together even though their series has been over since... years (the last ourskyy ep was in 2018). and if they find a formula that works, couples that work, and chemistry that works, premises that work, then they’ll stick with it and run with it until it gives out, y’know? we are getting refreshing concepts like a tale of thousand stars, and i can only hope with casting khaotung and podd as main leads together, that gmmtv branches out a bit more and creates shows with... different premises. also a wlw series is something that we’ve all been wanting for YEARS and is honestly fucking terrible we haven’t gotten it yet.

fhsnfhs i’m glad you like my work, it means so much to me to have y’all comment on my fics and send me asks about tell me it’s real and to take joy in it, i just like making y’all happy and creating! and god, do i agree with you. i have been wanting a tamil mlm/wlw movie or series ever since i knew i was lgbt, just to see my culture represented alongside my sexuality and who i am. but maybe one day soon, my friend. maybe one day soon!

[sugarcubetikki]

no no you’re absolutely right about the blatant lesbophobia  towards sapphics. 

I personally love heartstopper and I’m genuinely happy with all the attention its got as well as its renewal for two more seasons and yes on that note it is a step forward for the queer community in a way. however I can also recognise the clear double standards here and the steps back with how networks and streaming services treat a mlm show like heartstopper which primarily falls into the gay romance genre compared to shows that don’t actually fall in the romance genre but have amazing plots of their own simply including wlw romance in it just like we have straight couples/ships within your typical mainstream sci-fi show. 

yet these wlw shows are always the ones that get cancelled and it just gets clearer day by day that there is no other reason other than lesbophobia they’re not even hiding it anymore it’s disgusting. 

first kill literally got as many views as heartstopper in its first week and it could’ve become a profitable show yet it got cancelled (and no you can’t even say it’s because the show was trashy I do agree the plot was messy but that’s not the point how many trashy and messily written straight shows haven’t gotten renewed? plus it had a high viewership too there was no reason?)

the list goes on and on: paper girls, the wilds, i am not okay with this, batwoman...I know there’s so many more wlw shows I’ve seen people name and list over the past three years or so all these shows were cancelled. i rarely get to watch a finished show that has features wlw rep and it genuinely sucks. 

and this has been happening and only we care only the gay audience ever speaks about it it’s really problematic the straights will hear the news and probably feel sorry for us a little but they’ll simply brush it off because they don’t care or even make an attempt to watch wlw shows or shows with wlw rep apparently it’s not their genre (most of these shows aren’t even primarily about wlw romance it just includes it too so that just makes that whole excuse worse) but they go crazy over mlm shows/ships all the damn time. we’re the only ones supporting ourselves and as you said we’re a niche audience so broadcasters don’t even care about us even if we go on and rave about being cancelled on again they’ll just keeping doing it and doing it and it’s the worst. we - as sapphics - deserve as much love and appreciation as straight people and gay men do too we’re human and we deserve wholesome shows that represent us getting attention and love but it never happens it doesn’t happen the world just forgets that we’re also queer and marginalised and I hate to see it but if nick and charlie were two girls in love it wouldn’t have gotten as much attention like I said it shows...the lesbophobia. 

might be a hot take but god it pisses me off so much that every wlw show ive watched thats been canceled had an INCREDIBLE plot aside from the romance. like time travel or uncontrollable telekinesis or a fucked up social experiment of a staged plane crash. all very interesting stories and the wlw romance is a bonus and they still get canceled.

but literally nothing else has to happen for a mlm show to break records. nothing happens in shows like heartstopper. its JUST a high school romance. yes theres some wlw and i know people will argue that the focus on just high school is why they like it but it pisses me off how well they do compared to incredibly elaborate and brilliant stories that also have wlw romance. and they do well ENTIRELY bc its mlm.

and its because straight people (specifically straight girls) love mlm stories so shows like heartstopper get the straight audience AND the gay audience but no straight people care about wlw fiction like that. so every wlw show gets a smaller audience because its just a gay audience watching, and it leads to it being canceled every fucking time.

[gettin-bi-bi-bi]

Hi. I'm a fangirl, so I like reading fanfictions and shipping characters. Nowadays there is at least 1 slash ship per fandom (I mean the non canon ones) and they're mostly mlm. At the time when I started reading fanfiction, sometimes with mlm, I thought I was straight. Now that I know that I am bisexual I wish there were also more wlw ships. So now I'm wondering if the ships are mostly mlm because most of the fans writing the ffs are straight young women. 1/2

2/2 I don't think that's bad in general and I don't think what they are doing is wrong, but... I don't know I'm probably just being stupid, but do you think they only ship them because they're cishet and so they (some of them) just find it hot/cute because it's two guys? A bit like when men think a lesbian couple is hot? I kind of believe that because the ships are nearly always mlm and as good as never wlw.  Sorry for the long ask.

Yes, straight women can fetishise mlm just like straight men fetishise wlw. Usually women do it in different ways tho. Whereas straight men make and watch unrealistic “lesbian porn” and assume that bi women are made to give them threesome opportunities, straight women often do it through fanfiction, shipping, yadda yadda. I don’t wanna start a debate on which is more harmful because I’m not playing oppression olympics.

I don’t find it problematic per se to be turned on by two guys having it off. I think this is a pretty common reaction for allosexual people who are attraced to men - even if we’re talking about straight women - to feel sexual arousal upon seeing/thinking of two men having sex.

It gets very problematic when straight fangirls ship the two conventionally attractive guys in their fav show, talk about how the guys are “sinning” and write completely unrealistic bullshit about their coming out process and anal sex without lube.

From the pov of a bisexual woman (and fangirl) I think you run much less of a risk of fetishising mlm in a harmful way because a) you are queer and you can relate to other people’s queer experiences even if they are slightly different from yours; b) if you’re turned on by two guys having it off it’s probably because there happen to be two people you find attractive and you’d just as much enjoy seing a hot guy and a hot woman or two hot women doing it.

To put it simple: The problem isn’t being turned on by two men having sex - the problem is if the only reason this turns you on is because you have some sort of sin kink or whatever. Like... “uuuuh it’s hot because it’s FORBIDDEN.” Nope. Not having it!

Maddie

[singingwordwright]

2x07, 2x18, and what the fandom will see as Malec’s “defining moment” from here on out

I’ve seen a lot of remarks about how 2x18 is the producers “making up” for the mistake of 2x07. And part of me believes that, I believe 2x18 probably really was influenced by the fallout from 2x07.

But there’s also a part of me that is wondering, now that the reality that we’re going to see a sexual vision of Malec on-screen is upon us, whether or not the fandom is going to zero in on that to the exclusion of so much else of what Malec’s journey this season has been about.

I’ve meta’ed about this before. I just feel the need to revisit the subject now that we’re at this junction.

Before I get into this, let me state firmly for the record that I would never even dream of saying queer Malec fans were wrong for calling out the disparity in what is shown physically with Malec versus het couples on the show. It’s a very striking disparity and whether the producers intended it that way or not, it ultimately makes a statement about the acceptability of showing heterosexual intimacy versus mlm intimacy.

That said, I can’t help but suspect that there is a not-insignificant part of the Malec fandom whose interest in Malec is primarily fetishistic. Many of those people paint themselves as allies so they don’t have to examine their problematic attitudes, and that segment of the fandom probably co-opted that battlecry (about the disparity in exposure) to give legitimacy to their disappointment over the fact that they didn’t get to see their gay faves in bed together.

I’ve said in my other metas that I believe it possible that not showing the sex scene in 2x07 might have been a deliberate production decision made for reasons that--while the outcome was perceived as homophobic to people who weren’t privy to the decision making process--could have been made with the best of intentions.

I’ve heard rumors that the production team has spoken specifically of not wanting the relationship fetishized. I don’t know what interviews or tweets those rumors are based upon (if anyone does, please hook me up so I can assess them myself) so I don’t know if that’s true or not.

What I do know is that 2x08 was an ENORMOUS episode in terms of non-sexual relationship development--development on levels that were WAY more important than sex--and that it seems very possible, even likely, that if there had been a sex scene in 2x07, it would have overshadowed all that.

People would have been focused on the sex scene as the defining, establishing moment of their relationship, instead of the moment in 2x08 when Alec looked Magnus straight in the eye and said with absolute confidence and certitude, “Why wouldn’t I be [sure that our relationship isn’t going away?]”

God this moment. THIS MOMENT GAHHHH!!!!! I can’t really talk about this moment enough. It’s so important and so many people slept on it.

Alex says, “this--us--it’s not going away.” Okay, that’s good. But then look at Magnus’s reaction (God, I wish I could make gifs, because it’s so much better if you can see it in motion, both Alec’s line and Magnus’s reaction. Go watch the episode.)

When Magnus says “Are you sure about this?” HE’S NOT TALKING ABOUT THE PARTY. He’s asking Alec if Alec is certain about making statements about the permanence of their relationship to his mother and really to the world in general.

And Alec gives him that devastatingly direct, very purposeful eye-contact, and says “Why wouldn’t I be?”

Keep in mind, this is less than 24 hours after Magnus confides that he’s afraid of losing Alec if they have sex. And here Alec is saying without a shred of doubt that he’s in it for the long haul and that he wants to make a pointed public statement to that effect.

This is so major and people. fucking. slept. on. it. and it KILLS ME. This is possibly THE most important Malec relationship development moment of the whole season. More important than Alec turning around when he’s on the verge of walking away in 2x06. More important than the declaration of love in 2x10. THIS MOMENT IS HUGE.

But people overlook it. Constantly. It got a little attention for being a sweet moment, but no one really gave it credit for being important.

People slept on it because they were still howling about the lack of a sex scene the week before. They slept on it because “Magnus and Alec barely touched” (that’s a direct quote from a review I read somewhere) in 2x08. They were so busy howling about the lack physical expression in the relationship that they overlooked a lot of major relationship-development moments in 2x08.

How much worse would it have been if there had been a sex scene in 2x07? No one would have even noticed this moment as little as they did. It would have been a footnote. The sex, and not this moment, or even the declarations of love in 2x10, would have been fixed in the Malec fandom consciousness as the defining moment of Malec’s relationship progression in Season 2.

Now, I could be wrong. Maybe that wasn’t the logic the producers were following when they made the decision to fade to black and not pursue a bedroom scene in 2x07. But if it’s true that they wanted to avoid fetishizing the relationship, then introducing moments like this before showing Malec being physically intimate is actually a solid decision in terms of keeping the story arc focused on where they wanted the focus to be, which was Malec as a healthy, developing couple who are going through growing pains as they settle into the relationship in these early days.

With that in mind, I’ve said before that I don’t believe the mistake in 2x07 was in fading to black. The mistake was in having Malec have sex at all at that point. As a supporting argument, I offer the “wine in the rooftop garden” scene earlier in 2x07, specifically their body language. Look at the way they’re positioned, the semi-chaste way they’re kissing. They’re barely touching, and that is the farthest thing from a hot-and-heavy makeout kiss.

That is NOT a couple on the verge of making decisions about sex. That’s a couple on the verge of MAYBE moving on to light, over-the-clothes petting. The fact that Alec went from that to “hey, it’s time to have sex” in a matter of a few hours is just...so abrupt I’m in danger of whiplash It’s a double-take-required, “where did that come from” move. It just seemed weird and the wrong direction to take things.

Or so I thought. In retrospect, now that I see what else has been going on since, I kinda see why it HAD to happen in 2x07. If Malec hadn’t had sex at some point, it would have become A THING. A big, elephant-in-the-room, when-is-it-gonna-happen THING, and that’s not the sort of THING you want hanging over the story when you’re trying to keep your plot moving apace. They could have made the screen-time for it by taking screen time away from some other side-stories, but that’s really not the issue. The issue is when it would have worked in the scheme of the overall story arc Malec has been going through this season.

They needed to progress to that point, but there has literally been no other place in season two where it would have been the right time for Magnus and Alec to make the decision to take that leap in their relationship.  There’s been too much else going on.

2x08, probably would have been the best other candidate, but that episode--as shown above--was all about firmly establishing to themselves and others that they are a couple and they intend to stay that way. There might have been a way to work the sex decision in there, but if that had happened, it would have overshadowed all the other non-sexual relationship development happening, which as I’ve already said, I believe was treated as its own matter for good reason.

2x09 and 2x10 are obviously out of the question, and 2x11 was just too packed. And from 2x12 onward, there is no way Magnus and Alec would have felt right about escalating to having a sexual relationship if they hadn’t already had one. There were too many questions of trust at play since then.

Now, maybe they could have switched the order of events in 2x07 and 2x08, but I don’t think the non-sexual moments where Magnus and Alec were cementing the intended permanence of their relationship would have worked as well if the sex question was still outstanding.

2x07 was too early. But it was the only choice. Which means them having sex in 2x07 wasn’t a mistake after all, it was just the best of a lot of sub-optimal options. So I guess maybe the mistake was actually in that scene in the rooftop garden earlier in the episode, in the way it was filmed, in not making it hotter and heavier and conveying that they were in fact on the brink of escalating to that point.

Anyway. Now we’re coming to it. The moment of truth. We’re going to see sexually intimate moments with Malec. And I find myself really wondering how those moments are going to position themselves in the Malec fandom collective consciousness. How are they going to be prioritized by the Malec fandom as a whole?

Are they going to overshadow all this important stuff that has come before, or will they be the joyous accent that they should be, lovely and important but not THE most important or defining scenes for Malec this season?

I guess what I’m saying is that next week will probably reveal just how big a portion of the fandom does fetishize the relationship. And I’m a little worried at what the answer to that question might be.

[time-to-change-the-narrativ-blog]

Queer Narratives

Before we begin, here is a brief history on same-sex rights in Canada: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/timeline-same-sex-rights-in-canada-1.1147516

Like the narratives of gender, the dominant queer narrative used to be that heterosexual was ideal or correct and anything else was seen as “deviance.” While this is still a dominant narrative, it is one that is being heavily contested right now. Instead, I want to focus on a sub-narrative of sorts.

The harmful narratives I want to focus on are the following: 1) that queer relationships are all about sex and 2) that being queer is tragic/deviant (similar to the third narrative of disability).

The idea that queer relationships are all about sex stems from the idea of deviance. The perceived difference between, say, a male + female couple versus a female + female couple, is the sex. A girl is a lesbian because she prefers women over men. Thus, this is perceived very literally as preferring vagina over penis. Because of this, people often become hyperfixated on this distinction and gay couples become hypersexualised. Not to mention that between the AIDS crisis and people historically being arrested for having sex with someone of the same gender, the media has always focused heavily in the past on the “lifestyle” of queer people with an emphasis on social and sexual deviance. To have a kids tv show with a mlm couple is frowned upon because the relationship is “explicit/dirty” or “not suited for kids” or because how am I supposed to explain that to my kids? They’re too young to know about sex!!! Where a straight couple is about love between two people, a queer couple is seen as only about sex. Other narratives stem from this idea too, such as the concept that a bisexual/pansexual person will sleep with anyone because they like both or the idea that a bisexual/pansexual person will cheat on their partner for someone of the opposite gender because they are attracted to both.

An example of this that comes to mind is Cousin Terry from Mike and Dave Need Wedding Dates. I watched this movie a couple weeks ago and was absolutely cringing at how overly-sexualized Terry was. She is a bisexual character who spends the entire movie hitting on anyone who breathes, making jokes that “everyone has chlamydia,” and, at one point, pressuring another female character into sex by bribing her with Rihanna tickets in a predatory manner. A (quite explicit) example of this sexualization is in the clip below:

This idea that queer people are overly sexual is incorrect and inherently problematic. I constantly see things like a little five year old girl and boy holding hands and adults commenting on how their child has a boyfriend/girlfriend or that they’re going to get married someday. It certainly happened to me and my childhood best guy friend as we grew up. However, the idea of a little boy liking a little boy is considered wrong and seen as sexualizing children. How is it that a girl and boy holding hands is cute and loving, while two little boys is wrong? It’s because gay culture is inherently sexualized by the media to the point that being gay is intrinsically tied to sex.

The second narrative is that being gay is a tragedy - that to be gay is to suffer and not have a happy ending. This idea is promoted by the sheer number of queer characters that are killed off on TV and in film. Queer characters may be getting (slightly) more roles in the media than before, but more often than not the character dies, is heavily discriminated against, or otherwise has an unhappy ending to their story. Here is a good article in The Guardian that talks about this issue a little bit more. Also, a more Canadian article here. 

It’s time to #ChangeTheNarrative to show that queer relationships can be just as loving, complex, secure, and “pure” as straight relationships. But how can it be done?

One important way to change this narrative is to increase the positive lgbtqia+ representation in the media. As the above articles stated, queer representation in the media has increased. The problem is, that representation often perpetuates the above two narratives and is thus problematic and not real representation.

A great example of positive lgbtqia+ representation is the new movie Love, Simon directed by Greg Berlanti:

Yes, there are three clips, because I would die for this movie.

This movie, despite having some heavy moments, is a feel-good, gay highschool romance with an absolutely happy ending. This is a movie that not only shows gay children (and adults) that queer people can have happy, sappy, sweet romances, but also shows straight people the exact same thing.

Other examples of positive representation include Magnus and Alec (mlm) in Shadowhunters (as well as Raphael Santiago as Ace rep!), Grace and Anissa (wlw) in Black Lightning, Modern Family’s Mitchell and Cam (mlm), Rosa Diaz (Bi) and Raymond Holt (Gay) in Brooklyn 99 for TV shows. New movies include Moonlight, “San Junipero” (from Black Mirror), and Star Trek Beyond, among others.

If there was more positive representation of queer relationships and identities in the media (especially of identities that are less represented like queer poc, bi/pansexual, aro/ace, and trans/non-binary) the idea of queer relationships as loving and supportive rather than “deviant” would become more mainstream.

It’s time to #ChangeTheNarrative by giving lgbtqia+ people the positive representation they deserve!