#in the ec nora says kevin loves thea

[foxstens]

aromantic kevin day is borderline canon, if you even care

[simonsrosebud]

hi, can u talk about kalton "bedroom experience" for the lack of better word because it's kind of hard to believe that kevin is immediately comfortable sleeping with someone when he spent his entire life at the nest where sex was inconsequential cuz yanno, no relationships whatsoever back there. i love the kalton au! it warms my heart everytime

that’s such a valid ask and question anon bc ur so right. i’ve actually written about this in my notes on my phone but idk if i plan on ever posting it.

so yeah, kevin’s not a virgin, but he’s never slept with a man, and tbh hems pretty inexperienced with sex. we know the ravens kinda just slept w whoever on the team per nora’s EC, and plus kevin and thea existed…. but relationships and sexual relationships beyond simple transactions in the nest were a big no no, esp not for kevin being the star child he was raised as. it doesn’t bother him too much, but as he and dalton get further into their relationship it starts to be a common thought and worry bc he just doesn’t know how to go about all that and it just adds to his existing anxiety.

he and dalton stick with just making out for a solid month, and then it starts with just dalton getting kevin off. he’s okay with that because he likes dalton so much, he thinks, but returning the favor makes him nervous and dalton says every time that he doesn’t need to. dalton understands that he’s the first guy kevin’s ever been with though so he gets that it’s all new for him.

the thing is though, kevin knows that normally you both help each other out, right? so he wants to, he just doesn’t know what he’s doing. when he gets around to returning the favor the first time it’s probably awkward, and he probably thinks he’s doing so bad, but dalton doesn’t let it show. he asks him if he’s okay almost the whole time, and afterwards as well.

my theory, honestly, is that kevin just does it until he gets comfortable with it. like exposure therapy. because he’s comfortable with dalton himself so why is sex weird? he brings it up with bee, once. she asks if that works, for him, for the both of them. and while it probably wasn’t the most healthy way to go about it, kevin does think it worked. and dalton sure as hell liked the attention.

bee also tells him that he’s not abnormal for being weird with sex. when you’re just getting into all that, a lot of times when entering college, lots of people are inexperienced and lots of people are virgins and it’s okay to feel awkward because it probably will be awkward your first time doing intimate stuff with someone. (it’s the most uncomfortable conversation he’s ever had btw). but he takes her word for it.

anyway, the conversation with dalton ab this stuff probably goes like this... he’s sitting in front of dalton on the sofa, leaned back against his chest. “hey?” dalton hums. “so you’ve been really good with taking things slow for me, and i want to do um, more. but the reason i’ve needed to do this slow is just cause you’re the first guy i’ve been with?”

dalton kisses the back of his head. “i know. you know i’m okay with that.”

“yeah. so thea is the only other person i’ve been with, but we barely even… that-that was kind of a rule with living at the nest.-“

“if you’re trying to say you’re a virgin, you know that’s okay, right?”

kevin stops. his shoulders drop and he kind of sinks back against dalton again. “yeah... yeah.”

“and we don’t have to do anything until you’re ready and willing.”

“okay,” kevin breathes and lets his head fall back against dalton. “thanks.”

[palmett-hoes]

Looking through your answers is giving me so much serotonin and validation. THANK YOU. If you dont mind me asking, do you think if Andrew hadn't chosen exy as a career path, him and Kevin would have drifted apart? I assumed they would because I think Kevin struggles to have friends outside of exy? Nora said in the EC that Kevin makes friends with ppl at a dog park (with thea) when hes much older and that it's a big step in recovery? Implying that Kevin doesnt rlly make friends outside of exy

oh nice love that! we're all chasing that sweet, sweet serotonin

---

i actually think that andrew and kevin are quite closely bonded. in fact i honestly think it would have been better for kevin if andrew had quit exy after college and gone on to do his own thing, because it would have FORCED kevin to have a friend outside of exy

and neil and kevin obviously watch each other games and then call each other to break the game down. and neil always makes sure to always watch kevin’s games with andrew around bc he knows that andrew secretly cares, and leaves the call on speaker so andrew can hear kevin’s voice but he doesn’t really say much besides occasionally chiming in to complain about all the exy so

neil being there means that andrew's life would never COMPLETELY separate from exy. he and kevin would always be at most just one degree of separation away from each other even if they never make an effort to speak to each other ever again

kevin would be horrified and possibly somewhat betrayed if andrew chose not to go pro. he would say that andrew was wasting his talents and making the wrong choice, but i also don't think that he would ever abandon andrew completely

so say andrew decides not to go pro

the first year he’d probably live in the house in Columbia so he can stay close to neil, works at eden’s bc he has the connections. kevin would probably be calling him CONSTANTLY to try and guilt/threaten/beg/yell andrew into going pro and even though it’s super annoying (andrew mostly puts the phone down and watches tv during the ranting) kevin will eventually tire himself out and start berating andrew’s future plans like “well what are you planning to do now?” which in kevin kinda translates to “how are you?” so andrew tells him a little bit about the club and the stupid drunk customers and anyone he’s gotten to punch in the last week and how roland and all the other employees kevin sorta got to know over the years are

and they,, kinda just continue like that. once neil goes pro he and andrew move to neil’s new city and rent an apartment together. andrew spends the first year or so unemployed doing whatever he wants bc he has a rich pro athlete bf to pay the bills. and kevin keeps calling to call andrew lazy, and wasting his life not doing anything, so to prove him wrong andrew tells him about the places he goes around the city, the things he’s doing, the stuff he’s trying for the first time, the things he’s buying, the food places where he’s eating, the places he takes neil whenever he’s free

eventually kevin starts to realize that even though he’s been with his pro team for 3 years at that point he doesn’t know shit about his city. so maybe the next time kevin finishes all the exy matches on his dvr instead of starting them all over again or turning on the exy news channel he... goes out for the night, checks out whatever his city’s most accessible tourist landmark is, eats out at a restaurant

then the next time he calls to insult andrew’s life choices, after andrew says “oh i’m wasting my life? just yesterday i won $30 from drinking the most hot sauce in a bar bet” and kevin says “.... i.... tried this indian restaurant downtown last week” and andrew knows kevin never eats anything except skinless chicken breasts and fresh but boiled vegetables. “all those spices didn’t upset your sensitive tummy, day?” but kevin feels good - great, actually - telling andrew about it

not to drag this on any longer but kevin is just too obnoxious and pushy to ever let andrew go completely, and andrew hates exy way too fucking much to cave a single inch to all kevin’s complaining. eventually, years in the future, they even have full conversations about their respective lives without ever mentioning exy once

sure they drift apart somewhat, but drift apart in the way that people do when they grow up and go from seeing each other every day to living in separate cities

[i-did]

Do you have any thoughts on the way “fuck you Nora” impacts things like ships, in particular the recent sentiment that andreil is toxic and other fanon ships are objectively better and healthier that’s in pockets of the fandom. Like I’ve definitely seen it in the Kevin-centric niche the most but even outside of that there’s this belief that things like jerejean and renison would be very soft and healthy when there’s no proof of that. It’s almost like plausible deniability because (1/2)

andreil has canon strengths and flaws that are irrefutable, so when they ship things like Jerejean kevjean that don’t interact they feel a license to make it “better” because they know better than Nora if that makes sense. And Kandrew and kevineil are pitched as being healthier than andreil, among fans who say they wish the kandreil draft was canon where Nora has said multiple times, even when she talks about how fun they were to write that k/a were “obsessive” (2/2)

Yeah I definitely think “fuck you Nora” can play into it, sort of like how for a while most marriage or “I love you” HC posts started or ended with “fuck you Nora”. 

I think andreil are such a unique relationship dynamic of two very “difficult and violent” people ending up together, so I understand why they also get called toxic and flawed a lot. Tbh I can’t really see Andrew or Neil with anyone else, I think they fit together well and what works and is healthy for them just won't work or be healthy for everyone else. 

I also agree in the plausible deniability aspect, sometimes I think these fans take these characters and names and general situations, and make them into OC’s and/or props to fulfill troupes. The nature of fan creation is to play around with canon.

I personally don’t think the average college boy would be emotionally prepared or equipped enough to be a healthy pairing for a recently escaped lifelong human trafficking and cult survivor who just narrowly survived. And I don’t think Kevin who held power over Jean in the nest at number 2 instead of 3 as well as Riko’s partner, would be healthy either. Kevin himself talks about how it was different for him than for Jean, it was worse for Jean since he was a “lower rank.” I think the idea Kevjean is better than Kevin and Thea comes partially from the belief that gay=better in fandom, and the ‘pair the spare’ mentality. 

I also personally think that both Kandrew and Daysten/Kevineil are not good fits either. I’ve talked about it before and explained why I think Kandrew is unhealthy and am not really interested in exploring it, but for Kevineil I personally think they… fight too much I guess. You get in arguments with your friends as well as partners, but the way they affect you and power works can be very different, and the type of arguments are also typically different. I think they're fine as friends, but I think they would need a lot more outside of canon growth and development to be a fit romantically. I don’t care what others want to ship or explore, I just personally don’t see much appeal with either dynamic. 

I think people who say “this would be healthier” are usually imagining their ideas and HC’s and version of the character rather than the canon one, as well as just… their personal idea of what is “healthier” and what a good relationship “looks like”.

Also you briefly mention Renesion as being depicted/perceived as “softer and healthier” too. From what I see of Renesion its very… just kinda there. Usually there isn't a lot of development or they're just sort of in the background of another fic. The Renee and Allison in canon would not pair well together imo either, I also mention this somewhere in an earlier ask as well. I'm all for wlw pairs and ships, and I've read like a decently long Renesion fic my friend @wishbonetea wrote called “The Gracekeepers” where they do actually have chemistry, but are growing differently than they do in canon. In canon Renee is a “bad person trying very hard to be a good person.” she’s anti-negative talk and avoids speaking ill of others or expressing negative or harsh opinions. Allison has recently escaped a stuffy rich people environment where all their words are cloaked and all compliments are backhanded and no one really says what they’re thinking, Allison’s personal growth from this is to let it out and say what she really thinks, who give a fuck if they think she's rude or unladylike, it's her feelings. Also Renee’s past is often just depicted as this cool thing rather than something very truamatizing that she struggles with, makes it hard for her to genuinely connect with others and be her ‘real self’, and Allison's on-again off-again boyfriend just died, and she was there the night it happened. I haven't seen any fics actually explore these topics, just kinda ship them since “pair the spare.” (if any of you know any fics that address this or focus on it lmk)

I'm not going to hold their chemistry to a higher standard than mlm ships tho, I've seen people ship almost all the male characters together in the tags but obviously don’t do as much content for the women, which is a shame because some of the fox ladies have interesting potential chemistry. Dan and Renee have a very interesting dynamic in the EC and Nora herself said if she were to ship the fox ladies it would be Dan with Renee. I personally have high standards for ‘shipping’ I guess, sometimes I vaguely think “oh this could be interesting” but rarely do I actively explore it. I'm a pretty canon focused consumer, I never watched supernatural thinking ‘dustiel’ or even picked up on the queer-baiting until much later. I don't care about shipping the way most fans seem to. I like to imagine Andrew and Neil meeting in their late 60’s or so, or even not meeting the other and being single and having fulfilling lives that way too, which is not a common way to ‘show affection’ to characters. 

I agree with you and think it comes down to plausible deniability and this urge to ‘defy Nora’–be all edgy to an author who stopped listening–as well as pair the spare and fandom culture of shipping at its core. Shipping is seen as a good/better treatment of the characters and “what they deserve” a lot.

[i-did]

If you dont mind me asking, I'm really curious about your opinion of kevaaron as its growing increasingly popular. From the perspective of pairing a (bi?) guy with someone who is homophobic in canon. Often times it seems like Aaron overcoming his homophobia is rushed so that him and Kevin can get together.

Hey! So this is actually a very interesting ask because it shows how prevalent fanon is, that even you anon have stated that Kevin is bi and aaron is homophobic.

Aaron's homophobia is complicated but in my opinion there, especially considering it is 2006 and he is a straight guy. He definitely shows signs of being the "I'm not homophobic just don't shove it in my face/do stuff like that so public" type of homophobia. He is often HC as ace, sometimes ace/aro to combat this flaw and make him more likeable in a similar way people do with Kevin's homophobia.

Thats right! Kevin is probably homophobic! He never says a slur like seth, but going off of context he is about the level of homophobic as aaron, but in a much more dismissive rather than disgusted way. He says "it would be best for neil to remain heterosexual" (not a direct quote but you get the idea) this line is often used as evidence that kevin is bi in a similar way that Aaron's discomfort is used as evidence for him being ace. This type of dismissal and belief that being queer is a choice, is harmful. I've been told by a family member to stay in the closet because my life would be easier, and thats by someone who doesn't think its a choice.

Ace aaron isn't nearly the level of fanon as Kevin is bi is. But the other common HC of kevin is that he's ace/aro as well.

Again, as always, people can headcanon and interpret and interact with canon however they want. I think its just good to notice the line between fanon and canon. Fanon is inherently self indulgent.

I like to keep Aaron straight and homophobic because I think its important to show, and how people who are homophobic aren't secretly gay/bi the whole time trope. Also, ace people can be homophobic. Anyone can be homophobic. Its mostly straight people, but lesbians, bi non-binary people, ace women, gay men etc can be homophobic. Each group of queer person experiences homophobia uniquely, lesbiphobia is not the same as mlm homophobia, which is often based in femphobia, misdirected trans misogyny, and misogyny. And in fandom/media mlm homophobia takes on a whole entire form of fetishization (which isn't always inherently sexual).

Now! For my opinion on kevaaron.

I dont like it lol.

People can like what they like but personally if I don't like something I filter the tag and I have kevaaron filtered because I don't want to see it.

I think there is over emphasis on mlm ships with no chemistry over wlw ships that are arguably with more chemistry.

Overcoming your internalized homophobia is a real thing a lot of gay men have to face. And its hard, its really hard. And its not a thing to be rushed. A lot of peoples first gay relationship is really unhealthy because of this, dating someone who is closeted or freshly out, or being closeted or freshly out yourself is taxing.

Aaron and Kevin have less chemistry than renee and dan, (nora originally mentioned wanting them to maybe have something between them)

Most ships with aaron in my opinion seem to be based in the fact that it would be so cute for this short grumpy boy to be with someone so much taller, it also seems like a work around a lot of times with andrews trauma because you have his twin there.

Ships with aaron and matt are kind of funny to me because about all they share is a history with drugs. That's about it. Aaron is grumpy and matt is... actually not as sunny as fandom depicts him he's a lot more chill and less bubbly in canon but eh thats not really based in anything bad besides simplifying characters for fics and fandom.

I've never read a kevaaron fic but I wouldn't be surprised if they are rushed feeling like you said.

I still have internalized homophobia lol, and I've been out for 6 years now. its not an easy thing to undo.

Again I will state fandom is inherently self indulgent, I just also think that the core messages of the canon shouldn't be ignored and that people shouldn't say x charcters doesn't even have that flaw in canon. Characters are always multi faceted and complex if they're well written. They don't always have to be likeable. That's what makes them good, makes them foxes.

Its okay to like a character who is homophobic in canon and HC what you want, i have so many ideas for seth who I love, but I also want to make sure I dont fall into the "psych he wasn't a real homophobe-he was queer the whole time!" Trope because it inherently blames gay people for the homophobia they experience by making it a inter community issue where gay people just need to learn to not hate themselves, and "hahaha wouldn't it be so funny if this homophobe was gay, that'll show him" as if being gay and hating yourself and others is... a good thing to wish on others and the gay community. The truth is some, in fact most, homophobes are straight people.

That being said I have a headcanon that kevin is bisexual, aromatic, but is with thea his whole life despite neither of them not being very happy but content enough, he never realizes hes aro or bisexual, and it follows basically Nora's EC after that. And aaron is straight and haloy with kaitlyn but sometimes wonders if he held on so tightly and married her just because he already put in all that effort and not to prove his brother right when breaking up with her, but thats only when he's depressed otherwise he's happy and chillin.

There is a very low number of openly bi men compared to openly bi women "how many men would be bisexual if we let them" is a cool quote from tumblr, and an accurate one.

My headcanon isn't a happy one but in my opinion fits with canon pretty well which is why I like it. A lot of people don't ever fully find out who they are. That's the reality, and my fandoms elf indulgences are me giving myself more realistically canon "content" in my opinion. Thats how I self indulge but not everyone has to.

People who like kevaaron or aaron and matt, do you show the same support for renesion? For dan and renee, dan allison ? If not, why? They have the same level of chemistry, if not more.

Just some questions to wonder why you ship the things you do and why the bar for mlm chemistry is so much lower than it is for wlw chemistry.