#in the ec nora says kevin loves thea

[foxstens]

aromantic kevin day is borderline canon, if you even care

[joejhang]

my aftg hot takes

most of these are pretty lukewarm but i'm gonna get flamed for them anyway but whatever. spoilers ??? ahead ??? idk read at ur own risk

i don't think andreil ever say i love you to each other; i feel like the discourse about this is virtually endless ever since nora said it but honestly her explanation was so valid??? they're such a show not tell couple it just makes so much sense for them to show the "i love you" in their actions than ever saying the words out loud. esp bc neither of them have ever really heard those words and have them mean anything real or true or actually loving. personally i think their little percentages and the "i hate you"'s and kisses and keys mean more to them than an "i love you" ever could. i'm not a purist on this tho i do think i could visualise it happening maybe somewhere along the road i just think nora's explanation for this is very very in line with canon andreil.

i don't hate thea muldani; i've made a post abt this but basically my thoughts around her are literally just: she's a human being, and she's never gonna be perfect. i also find it very...interesting how the fandom likes to flame thea (an explicitly stated woman of colour) for being "problematic" and a "terrible person/character" when she doesn't act all that different from andrew, neil and kevin (white men) ??? idk it seems a little strange to me bc she seems pretty on par with them on whatever moral compass this batshit crazy fandom has decided to impose on these fictional and very much morally ambiguous characters. anyway go check out my post i go a lot deeper into thea's character and why she does a lot of things wrong but i don't rlly think she's deserving of the insane amounts of hate she gets in the fandom.

i don't think andreil ever get married; this MIGHT be me projecting bc the idea of marriage is just a very complicated and rough concept in my mind but also just i feel like there's something so beautiful about andreil never really putting a label on their relationship??? like they never define it by calling the other their "boyfriend" or "husband" they just are. they have nothing "concrete" binding them like a marriage certificate but they choose to stay with each other through everything. idk it's real to me but again i'm not a purist people can do whatever they want.

i've said it before but i'll keep saying it till enough people hear me: the aftg fandom mischaracterises literally the main fucking characters; i'm mostly talking about andrew and ESPECIALLY neil here bc neil is not a sweet, sunshiney, oblivious, blushy softboy and andrew is not a cold, unemotional, stoic, "conceal don't feel" stone. since i've already bitched on and on about neil's mischaracterisation let's just talk about andrew for a sec. i think andrew is actually a deeply emotional person and is fully aware of the feelings he experiences. does he vocalise or express them often? no but more often than not they show themselves anyway. him crashing out after neil was kidnapped, letting himself get walked like a dog by neil for three books straight, choking allison for slapping aaron, idk i could go on. but yeah you get it.

i don't actually think neil is that oblivious; before people come at me like "but nora said!" or whatever yeah, i know she said he's as dense as a brick when it comes to people flirting with him. considering how much of the ec the aftg fandom likes to disregard allow me to disregard this little bit of it, yeah? this isn't me tryna impose my own projections onto nora's characters, this is lit just me tryna explain how i understand neil josten (he's my bsf btw). he literally clocks his feelings for andrew in trk (after his deep convo™ with nicky) but he just files it away for later bc he doesn't consider attraction or romantic interest anything to be thinking about considering he's got the mafia and his serial killer dad on his tail. i also don't really blame him for not catching onto andrew's feelings earlier (tho doesn't he get pretty fucking close during that one convo they have in exites in trk???? someone correct me if i'm wrong but) bc dude andrew was out here sending fucking mixed ass signals like bro was saying "you are a pipe dream" and "i hate you" in the same fucking conversations like??? neil has always taken andrew at face value and he's not about to question him now. he's also never confused or uncertain about nicky or marissa and what their comments about him meant, he just genuinely does not gaf about them so he doesn't acknowledge them or pay them any attention in his narration. i truly truly think his dismissal of all the advances made upon him in aftg were borne out of indifference, not obliviousness.

have already said this in detail but i don't think andrew's actually a misogynist; the wording doesn't feel right. i'd probably describe andrew's distrust of women (esp. those in motherly/mother roles) as a similar ingrained wariness that neil has for older men. this is something borne out of trauma and shitty experiences that takes time and trust to unlearn. nora says a lot of things the fandom disregards and for me, this is one of those things i'm a little iffy about. misogyny actually isn't reflected in andrew's actions at all, i'd say. does he respect women? no. but he doesn't respect anyone unless they've actually earned it. and among the people he does respect and care for there are women (renee, bee). he doesn't treat women any differently and obv doesn't think they're any weaker than men are (considering renee wipes the floor w him their first sparring sesh). andrew's an equal opportunity hater and i don't think he actually has any sexist or even misogynistic tendencies. i think what is there is just a slightly biased worldview of disliking/mistrusting mother figures, given his bad experiences w tilda and cass (they've left him w more long-term emotional damage that's probably rlly difficult and complicated for him to work through esp considering cass did love??? him and he did want her enough to be willing to suffer dr*ke to be close to her; there's more to it but for the sake of word count i won't go into it) but honestly it doesn't actually show that much??? if people wanna say he hates women, sure, but for one, he doesn't hate a lot of things he's just very indifferent to them and two, he holds a pretty similar apathetic distaste for most people and things, so it's not like a very big distinction. i also think the whole "no girls" thing w aaron was very much a personal thing, and his mistrust of katelyn probably came from aaron's past (apparently negative) experiences w other girlfriends and friendships in general. and if i remember correctly the deal wasn't even "no girls" it was just "family only" which is why aaron didn't make friends w the rest of the foxes either. i digress but i don't think saying "andrew isn't a misogynist" is robbing him of any nuance as a character.

i like nicky and honestly feel similarly towards him as i do about thea; he isn't perfect and never will be and i think while the way he acts towards neil and others (see: matt, kevin) is pretty untoward and inappropriate, i also do see where he's coming from, esp after aaron's explanation of it. that it's a defence mechanism coming from someone who's experienced a lot of prejudice and harm because of his sexuality. obv i think everyone can agree his assault on neil was fucked up but i think nora was right in saying that nicky was high and drunk and not rlly in his right mind at the time, and he does apologise and i'm pretty sure she also said he and neil work it out privately anyway. he's a messy character and definitely not perfect queer rep but again, he's pretty realistic, and i think he's honestly a rlly well-written and complex character.

[well-gosh-diddly-darnit-minyard]

i agree with most of these except the Thea one. didn’t Nora say in the EC or somewhere that Dan and Matt are both canonically black? i don’t think it has much to do with racism and more with the fact that she shows up once under the worst possible circumstances and is a bitch about it, plus victim blames Jean. again, worst possible circumstances, i’m sure she has a much better side and i’d love to see her explored as a fleshed out character, but with what we have of her i understand why people hate her. she’s just as much of a victim as kevin and jean are, but the way we see her once is in an awful light. i do totally agree with the bit about roland though that’s fucked up

Pinkytoe’s top ten Aftg hot takes

Read with caution I’m very passionate about my thoughts and did not hold back on my opinions. This is not an attack on people who think differently it is me putting my perspective out there.(with some harsh wording)

1: The rift in Andrew and Aaron’s relationship is just as much Aaron’s fault as it is Andrew’s.

A lot of the time I see people framing Aaron as Andrew’s victim which is a weird interpretation of their relationship to me. It’s not just Andrew controlling Aaron, it is also Aaron fundamentally not understanding that Andrew is a person who has thoughts and feelings. Aaron fundamentally doesn’t understand that Andrew is not doing everything in his power to hurt Aaron he’s just trying not to lose Aaron. So with that understanding Aaron goes out of his way to hurt Andrew like aaron thinks he’s doing to him. The whole dynamic is toxic but neither is exclusively the perpetrator or the victim. The deal is a double edged sword and when people pretend otherwise it feels like it’s doing a disservice to the reality of the situation.

2: Erasing Aaron’s homophobia is not the take that some people think it is.

I see a lot of people making claims that Aaron isn’t homophobic he just doesn’t like hearing about his family’s sex lives. But I feel like people are blinded by their love of his character to see that his homophobia is a character flaw of his. He was raised by Tilda. Tilda was raised with Luther. It would not surprise me if she saw extremely homophobic. Also it takes place in 2006/7 casual homophobia was so fucking rampant… obviously he’s gonna have some uncomfortable opinions on gay people. But being homophobic is not a permanent state of being he can and probably will grow from where he is in canon. Pretending his comments in canon arn’t what they are is taking a layer from his characterization.(plus a layer from the rift in Andrew and Aaron’s relationship is Aaron’s homophobia soooo)

3: Thea was not nearly as bad as some people make her out to be and the whole situation reeks of racism

Yall I said it once and I’ll say it again. THEA AND KEVIN DIDNT START DATING TILL KEVIN WAS A COLLAGE FRESHMAN AND SHE WAS A SINIOR. They were both consenting adults who were in the same shitty traumatizing situation. Stop saying she’s a pedo stop acting like her being mad that he practically cut her out of his life for a year is unjustified. there relationship doesn’t seem perfect but it is not how some people portray it. Stop ur being racist to the only canon black woman!

4: all the hate that the fandom has for Thea should be amplified and given to Roland.

Now let’s see… Roland was 23 when he and a 16 year old Andrew started hooking up. Now that’s some pedo shit. Not only that, but Roland was if fucking boss at the time. Andrew had to tie Roland down in order to make Roland not touch him. You know the teenager he’s hooking up with. I said it once and I’ll say it again, fuck that bitch he’s a shitty shitty person who deserves all the hate the fandom could give him.

5: Hating Riko and thinking he got what was coming for him in the end and understanding that he’s a victim in his own way are not mutually exclusive. I can hate that fucker and still feel bad for him.

I think I explained this in the description well enough

6: Neil’s demisexuality/demiromatisism is non-negotiable. That shit is an important part of his character and erasing it for the sake of shipping is weird as hell.

I can’t even count the amount of times I’ve seen people just take away Neil’s demi identity’s because they want to read about him fucking everyone except the one character he’s been show to have romantic/sexual feelings for. Like I’ve seen people so upset he didn’t end up with Kevin and I’m just like yeah… cause he’s not into Kevin. Makes sense to me. I see so much…

*insert quote about how Neil have and idol like admiration for Kevin and his exy skills*

“Omg Neil wants to fuck Kevin sooooo bad it’s canon*

Like honestly ship whatever but don’t try to change the canon to justify it. Have your fun stop being stupid.

7: While Nicky’s actions in the first book inexcusable, the rampant mischaracterization of him to make him worse than canon is not cool.

This isn’t as big of an issue to me but I see people portraying Nicky as like an actual sexual predator and not just a person who lacks understanding of personal boundaries. What he did to Neil is super fucked up and I’m not excusing him (or anything he did in the first book tbh) but changing him to make the situation more back and white than it is is odd to me.

8: on a similar topic you can not compare what Nicky did in Columbia to what Andrew did.

Andrew had a justified reason for what he did. He is protecting Kevin from the fucking mafia and this shady Kid shows up with a stalker binder and a shit ton of money all while looking like he came off the street. It’s suspicious as hell. Also I want to add that he is on mind and mood altering drugs. The situation is fucked and looking at it from Neil’s perspective it’s even more so cause we know he is not involved in a malicious way, but Andrew didn’t. He acted with every justification while Nicky did not, the only reason Nicky did what he did is cause he wanted to. Both are not good but you can’t compare the two.

9: While kevins alcoholism is not good, the way his fans frame it is grossly misrepresenting the situation.

In the books Kevin is not in a mental state to handle getting sober on top of everything else. His alcoholism is bad and everyone knows it but it is the only thing getting him through things without causing him to shut down. It’s not good but if it’s what he needs to get through this then that’s what he needs. When he’s not in the middle of a mob war he’ll be in a better position to handle himself without alcohol. He’s not a helpless bbg he’s a grown man just trying to get by and if it helps it helps.

10: I do not get the hype around Kevin.

This might be my most controversial take tbh…Like he’s a cool character. And I love him as much as the other foxes but I don’t understand the recent wave of him getting babygirlified. Is it the queen symbolism? Is it just cause he’s conventionally attractive? Is it cause that one scene in the kings men where he was cunty as fuck? No clue.

but yall have fun I may not get it but it is entertaining as shit

[simonsrosebud]

hi, can u talk about kalton "bedroom experience" for the lack of better word because it's kind of hard to believe that kevin is immediately comfortable sleeping with someone when he spent his entire life at the nest where sex was inconsequential cuz yanno, no relationships whatsoever back there. i love the kalton au! it warms my heart everytime

that’s such a valid ask and question anon bc ur so right. i’ve actually written about this in my notes on my phone but idk if i plan on ever posting it.

so yeah, kevin’s not a virgin, but he’s never slept with a man, and tbh hems pretty inexperienced with sex. we know the ravens kinda just slept w whoever on the team per nora’s EC, and plus kevin and thea existed…. but relationships and sexual relationships beyond simple transactions in the nest were a big no no, esp not for kevin being the star child he was raised as. it doesn’t bother him too much, but as he and dalton get further into their relationship it starts to be a common thought and worry bc he just doesn’t know how to go about all that and it just adds to his existing anxiety.

he and dalton stick with just making out for a solid month, and then it starts with just dalton getting kevin off. he’s okay with that because he likes dalton so much, he thinks, but returning the favor makes him nervous and dalton says every time that he doesn’t need to. dalton understands that he’s the first guy kevin’s ever been with though so he gets that it’s all new for him.

the thing is though, kevin knows that normally you both help each other out, right? so he wants to, he just doesn’t know what he’s doing. when he gets around to returning the favor the first time it’s probably awkward, and he probably thinks he’s doing so bad, but dalton doesn’t let it show. he asks him if he’s okay almost the whole time, and afterwards as well.

my theory, honestly, is that kevin just does it until he gets comfortable with it. like exposure therapy. because he’s comfortable with dalton himself so why is sex weird? he brings it up with bee, once. she asks if that works, for him, for the both of them. and while it probably wasn’t the most healthy way to go about it, kevin does think it worked. and dalton sure as hell liked the attention.

bee also tells him that he’s not abnormal for being weird with sex. when you’re just getting into all that, a lot of times when entering college, lots of people are inexperienced and lots of people are virgins and it’s okay to feel awkward because it probably will be awkward your first time doing intimate stuff with someone. (it’s the most uncomfortable conversation he’s ever had btw). but he takes her word for it.

anyway, the conversation with dalton ab this stuff probably goes like this... he’s sitting in front of dalton on the sofa, leaned back against his chest. “hey?” dalton hums. “so you’ve been really good with taking things slow for me, and i want to do um, more. but the reason i’ve needed to do this slow is just cause you’re the first guy i’ve been with?”

dalton kisses the back of his head. “i know. you know i’m okay with that.”

“yeah. so thea is the only other person i’ve been with, but we barely even… that-that was kind of a rule with living at the nest.-“

“if you’re trying to say you’re a virgin, you know that’s okay, right?”

kevin stops. his shoulders drop and he kind of sinks back against dalton again. “yeah... yeah.”

“and we don’t have to do anything until you’re ready and willing.”

“okay,” kevin breathes and lets his head fall back against dalton. “thanks.”

[palmett-hoes]

Looking through your answers is giving me so much serotonin and validation. THANK YOU. If you dont mind me asking, do you think if Andrew hadn't chosen exy as a career path, him and Kevin would have drifted apart? I assumed they would because I think Kevin struggles to have friends outside of exy? Nora said in the EC that Kevin makes friends with ppl at a dog park (with thea) when hes much older and that it's a big step in recovery? Implying that Kevin doesnt rlly make friends outside of exy

oh nice love that! we're all chasing that sweet, sweet serotonin

---

i actually think that andrew and kevin are quite closely bonded. in fact i honestly think it would have been better for kevin if andrew had quit exy after college and gone on to do his own thing, because it would have FORCED kevin to have a friend outside of exy

and neil and kevin obviously watch each other games and then call each other to break the game down. and neil always makes sure to always watch kevin’s games with andrew around bc he knows that andrew secretly cares, and leaves the call on speaker so andrew can hear kevin’s voice but he doesn’t really say much besides occasionally chiming in to complain about all the exy so

neil being there means that andrew's life would never COMPLETELY separate from exy. he and kevin would always be at most just one degree of separation away from each other even if they never make an effort to speak to each other ever again

kevin would be horrified and possibly somewhat betrayed if andrew chose not to go pro. he would say that andrew was wasting his talents and making the wrong choice, but i also don't think that he would ever abandon andrew completely

so say andrew decides not to go pro

the first year he’d probably live in the house in Columbia so he can stay close to neil, works at eden’s bc he has the connections. kevin would probably be calling him CONSTANTLY to try and guilt/threaten/beg/yell andrew into going pro and even though it’s super annoying (andrew mostly puts the phone down and watches tv during the ranting) kevin will eventually tire himself out and start berating andrew’s future plans like “well what are you planning to do now?” which in kevin kinda translates to “how are you?” so andrew tells him a little bit about the club and the stupid drunk customers and anyone he’s gotten to punch in the last week and how roland and all the other employees kevin sorta got to know over the years are

and they,, kinda just continue like that. once neil goes pro he and andrew move to neil’s new city and rent an apartment together. andrew spends the first year or so unemployed doing whatever he wants bc he has a rich pro athlete bf to pay the bills. and kevin keeps calling to call andrew lazy, and wasting his life not doing anything, so to prove him wrong andrew tells him about the places he goes around the city, the things he’s doing, the stuff he’s trying for the first time, the things he’s buying, the food places where he’s eating, the places he takes neil whenever he’s free

eventually kevin starts to realize that even though he’s been with his pro team for 3 years at that point he doesn’t know shit about his city. so maybe the next time kevin finishes all the exy matches on his dvr instead of starting them all over again or turning on the exy news channel he... goes out for the night, checks out whatever his city’s most accessible tourist landmark is, eats out at a restaurant

then the next time he calls to insult andrew’s life choices, after andrew says “oh i’m wasting my life? just yesterday i won $30 from drinking the most hot sauce in a bar bet” and kevin says “.... i.... tried this indian restaurant downtown last week” and andrew knows kevin never eats anything except skinless chicken breasts and fresh but boiled vegetables. “all those spices didn’t upset your sensitive tummy, day?” but kevin feels good - great, actually - telling andrew about it

not to drag this on any longer but kevin is just too obnoxious and pushy to ever let andrew go completely, and andrew hates exy way too fucking much to cave a single inch to all kevin’s complaining. eventually, years in the future, they even have full conversations about their respective lives without ever mentioning exy once

sure they drift apart somewhat, but drift apart in the way that people do when they grow up and go from seeing each other every day to living in separate cities

[i-did]

Do you have any thoughts on the way “fuck you Nora” impacts things like ships, in particular the recent sentiment that andreil is toxic and other fanon ships are objectively better and healthier that’s in pockets of the fandom. Like I’ve definitely seen it in the Kevin-centric niche the most but even outside of that there’s this belief that things like jerejean and renison would be very soft and healthy when there’s no proof of that. It’s almost like plausible deniability because (1/2)

andreil has canon strengths and flaws that are irrefutable, so when they ship things like Jerejean kevjean that don’t interact they feel a license to make it “better” because they know better than Nora if that makes sense. And Kandrew and kevineil are pitched as being healthier than andreil, among fans who say they wish the kandreil draft was canon where Nora has said multiple times, even when she talks about how fun they were to write that k/a were “obsessive” (2/2)

Yeah I definitely think “fuck you Nora” can play into it, sort of like how for a while most marriage or “I love you” HC posts started or ended with “fuck you Nora”. 

I think andreil are such a unique relationship dynamic of two very “difficult and violent” people ending up together, so I understand why they also get called toxic and flawed a lot. Tbh I can’t really see Andrew or Neil with anyone else, I think they fit together well and what works and is healthy for them just won't work or be healthy for everyone else. 

I also agree in the plausible deniability aspect, sometimes I think these fans take these characters and names and general situations, and make them into OC’s and/or props to fulfill troupes. The nature of fan creation is to play around with canon.

I personally don’t think the average college boy would be emotionally prepared or equipped enough to be a healthy pairing for a recently escaped lifelong human trafficking and cult survivor who just narrowly survived. And I don’t think Kevin who held power over Jean in the nest at number 2 instead of 3 as well as Riko’s partner, would be healthy either. Kevin himself talks about how it was different for him than for Jean, it was worse for Jean since he was a “lower rank.” I think the idea Kevjean is better than Kevin and Thea comes partially from the belief that gay=better in fandom, and the ‘pair the spare’ mentality. 

I also personally think that both Kandrew and Daysten/Kevineil are not good fits either. I’ve talked about it before and explained why I think Kandrew is unhealthy and am not really interested in exploring it, but for Kevineil I personally think they… fight too much I guess. You get in arguments with your friends as well as partners, but the way they affect you and power works can be very different, and the type of arguments are also typically different. I think they're fine as friends, but I think they would need a lot more outside of canon growth and development to be a fit romantically. I don’t care what others want to ship or explore, I just personally don’t see much appeal with either dynamic. 

I think people who say “this would be healthier” are usually imagining their ideas and HC’s and version of the character rather than the canon one, as well as just… their personal idea of what is “healthier” and what a good relationship “looks like”.

Also you briefly mention Renesion as being depicted/perceived as “softer and healthier” too. From what I see of Renesion its very… just kinda there. Usually there isn't a lot of development or they're just sort of in the background of another fic. The Renee and Allison in canon would not pair well together imo either, I also mention this somewhere in an earlier ask as well. I'm all for wlw pairs and ships, and I've read like a decently long Renesion fic my friend @wishbonetea wrote called “The Gracekeepers” where they do actually have chemistry, but are growing differently than they do in canon. In canon Renee is a “bad person trying very hard to be a good person.” she’s anti-negative talk and avoids speaking ill of others or expressing negative or harsh opinions. Allison has recently escaped a stuffy rich people environment where all their words are cloaked and all compliments are backhanded and no one really says what they’re thinking, Allison’s personal growth from this is to let it out and say what she really thinks, who give a fuck if they think she's rude or unladylike, it's her feelings. Also Renee’s past is often just depicted as this cool thing rather than something very truamatizing that she struggles with, makes it hard for her to genuinely connect with others and be her ‘real self’, and Allison's on-again off-again boyfriend just died, and she was there the night it happened. I haven't seen any fics actually explore these topics, just kinda ship them since “pair the spare.” (if any of you know any fics that address this or focus on it lmk)

I'm not going to hold their chemistry to a higher standard than mlm ships tho, I've seen people ship almost all the male characters together in the tags but obviously don’t do as much content for the women, which is a shame because some of the fox ladies have interesting potential chemistry. Dan and Renee have a very interesting dynamic in the EC and Nora herself said if she were to ship the fox ladies it would be Dan with Renee. I personally have high standards for ‘shipping’ I guess, sometimes I vaguely think “oh this could be interesting” but rarely do I actively explore it. I'm a pretty canon focused consumer, I never watched supernatural thinking ‘dustiel’ or even picked up on the queer-baiting until much later. I don't care about shipping the way most fans seem to. I like to imagine Andrew and Neil meeting in their late 60’s or so, or even not meeting the other and being single and having fulfilling lives that way too, which is not a common way to ‘show affection’ to characters. 

I agree with you and think it comes down to plausible deniability and this urge to ‘defy Nora’–be all edgy to an author who stopped listening–as well as pair the spare and fandom culture of shipping at its core. Shipping is seen as a good/better treatment of the characters and “what they deserve” a lot.

[i-did]

If you dont mind me asking, I'm really curious about your opinion of kevaaron as its growing increasingly popular. From the perspective of pairing a (bi?) guy with someone who is homophobic in canon. Often times it seems like Aaron overcoming his homophobia is rushed so that him and Kevin can get together.

Hey! So this is actually a very interesting ask because it shows how prevalent fanon is, that even you anon have stated that Kevin is bi and aaron is homophobic.

Aaron's homophobia is complicated but in my opinion there, especially considering it is 2006 and he is a straight guy. He definitely shows signs of being the "I'm not homophobic just don't shove it in my face/do stuff like that so public" type of homophobia. He is often HC as ace, sometimes ace/aro to combat this flaw and make him more likeable in a similar way people do with Kevin's homophobia.

Thats right! Kevin is probably homophobic! He never says a slur like seth, but going off of context he is about the level of homophobic as aaron, but in a much more dismissive rather than disgusted way. He says "it would be best for neil to remain heterosexual" (not a direct quote but you get the idea) this line is often used as evidence that kevin is bi in a similar way that Aaron's discomfort is used as evidence for him being ace. This type of dismissal and belief that being queer is a choice, is harmful. I've been told by a family member to stay in the closet because my life would be easier, and thats by someone who doesn't think its a choice.

Ace aaron isn't nearly the level of fanon as Kevin is bi is. But the other common HC of kevin is that he's ace/aro as well.

Again, as always, people can headcanon and interpret and interact with canon however they want. I think its just good to notice the line between fanon and canon. Fanon is inherently self indulgent.

I like to keep Aaron straight and homophobic because I think its important to show, and how people who are homophobic aren't secretly gay/bi the whole time trope. Also, ace people can be homophobic. Anyone can be homophobic. Its mostly straight people, but lesbians, bi non-binary people, ace women, gay men etc can be homophobic. Each group of queer person experiences homophobia uniquely, lesbiphobia is not the same as mlm homophobia, which is often based in femphobia, misdirected trans misogyny, and misogyny. And in fandom/media mlm homophobia takes on a whole entire form of fetishization (which isn't always inherently sexual).

Now! For my opinion on kevaaron.

I dont like it lol.

People can like what they like but personally if I don't like something I filter the tag and I have kevaaron filtered because I don't want to see it.

I think there is over emphasis on mlm ships with no chemistry over wlw ships that are arguably with more chemistry.

Overcoming your internalized homophobia is a real thing a lot of gay men have to face. And its hard, its really hard. And its not a thing to be rushed. A lot of peoples first gay relationship is really unhealthy because of this, dating someone who is closeted or freshly out, or being closeted or freshly out yourself is taxing.

Aaron and Kevin have less chemistry than renee and dan, (nora originally mentioned wanting them to maybe have something between them)

Most ships with aaron in my opinion seem to be based in the fact that it would be so cute for this short grumpy boy to be with someone so much taller, it also seems like a work around a lot of times with andrews trauma because you have his twin there.

Ships with aaron and matt are kind of funny to me because about all they share is a history with drugs. That's about it. Aaron is grumpy and matt is... actually not as sunny as fandom depicts him he's a lot more chill and less bubbly in canon but eh thats not really based in anything bad besides simplifying characters for fics and fandom.

I've never read a kevaaron fic but I wouldn't be surprised if they are rushed feeling like you said.

I still have internalized homophobia lol, and I've been out for 6 years now. its not an easy thing to undo.

Again I will state fandom is inherently self indulgent, I just also think that the core messages of the canon shouldn't be ignored and that people shouldn't say x charcters doesn't even have that flaw in canon. Characters are always multi faceted and complex if they're well written. They don't always have to be likeable. That's what makes them good, makes them foxes.

Its okay to like a character who is homophobic in canon and HC what you want, i have so many ideas for seth who I love, but I also want to make sure I dont fall into the "psych he wasn't a real homophobe-he was queer the whole time!" Trope because it inherently blames gay people for the homophobia they experience by making it a inter community issue where gay people just need to learn to not hate themselves, and "hahaha wouldn't it be so funny if this homophobe was gay, that'll show him" as if being gay and hating yourself and others is... a good thing to wish on others and the gay community. The truth is some, in fact most, homophobes are straight people.

That being said I have a headcanon that kevin is bisexual, aromatic, but is with thea his whole life despite neither of them not being very happy but content enough, he never realizes hes aro or bisexual, and it follows basically Nora's EC after that. And aaron is straight and haloy with kaitlyn but sometimes wonders if he held on so tightly and married her just because he already put in all that effort and not to prove his brother right when breaking up with her, but thats only when he's depressed otherwise he's happy and chillin.

There is a very low number of openly bi men compared to openly bi women "how many men would be bisexual if we let them" is a cool quote from tumblr, and an accurate one.

My headcanon isn't a happy one but in my opinion fits with canon pretty well which is why I like it. A lot of people don't ever fully find out who they are. That's the reality, and my fandoms elf indulgences are me giving myself more realistically canon "content" in my opinion. Thats how I self indulge but not everyone has to.

People who like kevaaron or aaron and matt, do you show the same support for renesion? For dan and renee, dan allison ? If not, why? They have the same level of chemistry, if not more.

Just some questions to wonder why you ship the things you do and why the bar for mlm chemistry is so much lower than it is for wlw chemistry.