#im in too deep with this lore

[pbucketswbb]

was watching love island and... peeped the communal paige cardigan 😭😭

[spearxwind]

{ [...] Some leviathans have been observed using their threat displays to hunt, dazzling their prey into sensory shock before striking. And isn't it mesmerizing? You can't look away. You can't look away. You can't look away. }

[entering--hyperspace]

Its interesting in gw1 some charr walk completely upright and others have that same hunched posture they do in gw2…is there a reasoning for this? If not It could be a really interesting character trait in terms of preference in posture.

[theaceace]

imagining a world in which Simon agreed to go with Edwin and try to escape hell, imagining Simon developing an immediate and very inadvisable crush on the cute guy that just threw a grenade at a demon and Edwin's reaction to that, imagining the reaction of Charles Overprotective Rowland when he finds out that the guy Edwin insists on dragging along with them is one of the guys that sacrificed him to a demon in the first place, imagining the Night Nurse's face when three dead boys pop back through the door instead of two

[mlady-magnolia]

“It’s been a pleasure, my sweet dew.”

[quitefair]

The Temple of Mythal and Greek Sculpture

Or: How Bioware takes from history without any nuance.

--

Picture this. You're me, playing Inquisition for the first time. You get to the Temple of Mythal, the doors shut behind you and you finally get to look around. It's a typical elven ruin for the game, nothing much seems different...

Hold on.

Hold the fuck on.

You know what that is.

You know what that's based on, and for a long time after it tickles you. Oh, maybe that meant something in the grander scheme of things! We've never seen such a blatant reference to a real-life sculpture anywhere else in game (to my knowledge at the time)! Maybe it'll come up later and it'll all make sense!

Here's the deal. I've been bothered by this for years. The more I think about it, the more angry I become. Anger over a single fucking type of statue, you say? There's a lot of other shit to be angry over in this game, and you choose this?

YES! I CHOOSE THIS! AND THIS IS WHY.

--

Picture this. You're me again, aged 14 this time. You're in the Louvre, the first museum of Western classical art you've ever been to. You've grown up in a place where this interest could only be cultivated from extra-curricular reading, and for a kid that age from my country to be ass deep in Greek and Egyptian myth is frankly lmao. Neurodivergent. Anyway.

So we're wandering around the Louvre, I've just taken my parents through the Egyptian section and given them a thorough infodump on everything I know about burial rites.

And then we enter this room. And I very nearly fall to my knees when I catch sight of her.

This is the sculpture the statues at the Temple of Mythal are based on - one Winged Victory of Samothrace.

She is a sculpture from the Hellenestic era, depicting the goddess Nike stood at the prow of a ship. Her head and both arms are missing, save one hand with two fingers (also in the Louvre but displayed separately). She was found on the Greek island of Samothrace, among the ruins of what was known as the Sanctuary of the Great Gods. It seemed like she was displayed at the top of a hill, looming down at all that regarded her.

I’ve had the absolute privilege of seeing her in person twice in my life, both before and after the 2013 restoration. And let me tell you, regardless of which staircase that leads you there, the sight of her will stop you in your tracks.

[Now with people, for scale.]

She is massive. Larger than life, and immediately is the centre of your attention. It's not the fact that she has no head, no arms. No, you will realise the closer you get to her, the more you're able to appreciate the details of this absolutely astounding piece of history.

No. It's because she feels so alive.

The way her robes drape against flesh, wet from sea-spray or rain, yet flowing with the motion of an invisible wind. The wings cast behind her dramatically as her right foot steps forward. Standing tall and proud, unflinching, unbowed against the elements. Even without her arms, you can feel how dynamic the torso and legs are.

You don't need to be an art historian, or even have any knowledge of Greek myth or art history to stand in front of her, as I once did as a young teen, and nearly be brought to tears.

So.

This brings me to the first of the two main gripes I have with the way this sculpture is used in Inquisition.

Compared to the way she's displayed in the Louvre, and also presumably how she was presented to her original audience - larger than life, looming, powerful, beautiful - she is relegated instead to smaller, repeating statues of the same nature throughout the temple.

This diminishes the purpose of the original sculpture, which was to instill a sense of awe and wonder. The singularity that forces you to focus and appreciate the scale and intricacy. The aura, the gravitas of having a single, massive sculpture of such a dynamic figure is completely gone.

And to make things worse, they Mythal-ify her. Adding a helmed head and changing her beautiful feathered wings to leathery dragon wings. They don't even add arms, which is odd because the original sculpture very clearly is missing its arms.

And, may I ask, Why?

It feels cheap, like they saw the Winged Victory and were like 'oh shit this is a cool sculpture, we should add it in game' without giving any fucking thought to what the sculpture means.

Which brings me to the second gripe. The complete disregard for the symbolism of the Winged Victory.

Detail from the Athena fountain, Parliament Building of Vienna, showing Nike the Winged Victory in the palm of Athena's hand [source]

Nike is a minor Greek deity, said to be the daughter of Pallas (a Titan) and the river Styx. Her other siblings by the same parents include Zelus (Zeal),  Bia (Might) and Kratos (Strength).

Yes. That Kratos.

She was one of the earliest gods to pledge her allegiance to Zeus in the Titonomachy, and after the victory of the Olympians, Nike and the other gods that allied with them were allowed to live on Olympus. In her aspect as Victory, she is closely associated with several of the major Greek gods, and in particular, Athena.

There's also her Roman counterpart, Victoria. This version doesn't come with the backstory Nike has, but is more of a general concept of victory. This is the aspect that is present in a lot of the modern sculptures and interpretations of Nike/Victoria:

Left: Detail from the Berlin Victory Column. Right: Detail from the Victoria Memorial, London. Note the similar iconography, of a woman seemingly standing against a strong wind, fabric and cloth adhering and yet flowing against the breeze, wings outstretched.

From this, we can probably extrapolate what our beloved Winged Victory might've looked like. Here's an artist's render of one possibility:

There's some iconography we need to go through before moving on - symbols that are commonly associated with Nike/Victoria.

One is the trumpet as see in the reconstruction above, the sound and symbol of the end of war, of impending peace. Another is the laurel wreath, another Greek symbol of victory and achievement. Famously, laurel wreaths were used to crown victors of the original Olympic games.

This is another conversation entirely, but there’s a discussion to be had about the duality of Elgar’nan and Mythal, in term of vengeance and justice, and how an emotional rage versus a calculated wisdom can be compared to the difference between the two Greek gods of war – Ares and Athena.

If we can compare Mythal to Athena, in the sense of her wisdom in making difficult decisions, then it’s not a stretch to associate Mythal with the symbolism of Nike, and therefore explain the presence of statues similar to the Winged Victory in her temple.

But since Bioware absolutely did not put this in the game for anything other than the Aesthetic, there’s some problems that need to be addressed.

Mainly in the way in which these statues are scattered throughout the temple. If you wanted static, ominous statues to line the walls as your player characters explore, perhaps have like, I dunno. Less dynamic statues that you reference?

Left: Nike of Paionos, Right: Stele 1 of Las Incantadas

Or maybe instead of statues, have friezes lining the walls. Like this one from the equally iconic Pergamon altar, depicting the Giganomanchy.

It’s the same symbolism, the wings, the smiting of foes and victory of good over evil.

And then perhaps, at the heart of the temple... where, y'know Bioware, lay a body of water sacred to Mythal herself, you could've perhaps done something remarkable. You could then have had the most dramatic and beautiful entrance you’d ever seen.

[Nike, at the iconic Daru Staircase, the Louvre]

It was at this moment that Mythal walked out of the sea of the earth's tears and onto the land. She placed her hand on Elgar'nan's brow, and at her touch he grew calm and knew that his anger had led him astray. - Codex entry: Mythal: The Great Protector

Mythal herself strides out of the Well Of Sorrows, the metaphorical tears of her followers that died and kept their knowledge alive in her name. Her (draconic) wings spread out, (restored) hands outstretched to touch her husband, to calm the rage that nearly destroyed this world.

A symbol of victory against the blind rage of a god against His father, the Sun. A symbol of wisdom and grace, against the violence of hatred. A divine sense of something bigger than anything we could imagine.

There's also the lack of iconography regarding victory, instead piling on some cheap representations of what we think of as Mythal. That's another post entirely on the symbolism of the Elven gods, but if Bioware really wanted to hone in on the Athena/Athena Nike parallels, they might have thrown in the trumpet/laurel/palm leaf symbolism with the statues, alongside the dragon wings.

If this were the case, then maybe, just maybe, Inquisition would’ve then earned the use of this sculpture in the game.

Sources not listed above/Further reading if you're interested

https://www.louvre.fr/en/explore/the-palace/a-stairway-to-victory

https://www.worldhistory.org/article/1412/winged-victory-the-nike-of-samothrace/https://smarthistory.org/nike-winged-victory-of-samothrace/

https://smarthistory.org/nike-winged-victory-of-samothrace/

https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/ancient-art-civilizations/greek-art/hellenistic/a/nike-winged-victory-of-samothrace

[eeulysian]

ruan mei and her nonchalant attitude making things between her and reader seem one sided on the reader and it goes on until reader got tired of it. ruan mei doesnt care about it at first but when they see reader being a cute puppy running around the station and being all sweet and mushy with march or himeko or even kafka (you choose), suddenly shes bothered with the change of reader's behavior and keeps getting distracted in her work cause why isnt reader like that to her anymore??? has she been taking advantage of reader's kindness????

hhhh just ruan mei being somewhat possessive or jealous or both is already making my knees weak

THIS IS SO CUTE, i'm pretty sure ruan mei might be autistic because its confirmed that the genius society is filled with scientists and researchers with autistic tendencies, not knowing how to express feelings is apart of autism as i have a younger cousin with autism so im familiar with some autistic tendencies! so because of this, she might not know how to express her feelings well, and shes not just purposely nonchalant. since she also doesnt understand the concept of love like said in that critter event, i like to think that reader is able to teach her and show her what love is like after ruan mei comes after reader (im sure reader would be jumping and running around in circles), and when she ends up getting the gist of it, she'll understand why she felt bothered seeing you being close and laughing with other women and gets embarrassed... that would be the first time reader sees her flustered and they wish they could have taken a photo of it. shes definitely the "you know other women?" kind of jealous LMFAOO but i love jealous ruan mei, shes so girlboss but also girlfailure at the same time 🤭🤭

[garlic-and-vanilla]

Another day of chewing through the drywall thinking about The Emperor being very literally haunted by the past it cannot return to. Demonic possession trope reversed. A monster possessed by humanity.

[ironicsoap]

kind of went insane and made a pressure self insert. she likes to lounge out in pools a lot. her poor hair is a damaged mess

[brofightiscancelled]

wait what did osomatsu do to ichimatsu in devimega divorce au. hey

devils (and angels) only consist of a Spirit, no physical body or human soul, so they're largely unable to interact with earthly objects, or be seen/heard/touched by mortals. there's also a limit to how long they can spend on earth at a time.

this is what summoning circles are for: they temporarily bind the devil (or angel) to the earthly plane, which allows them to touch objects, interact with mortals, etc, basically lets them do anything requiring a physical body. but they can't leave the vicinity of the summoning circle

however, if you are human, and there is a devil (or angel) who really wants to be in your life, one option you have is to form a pact. it's a drawn-out process involving a lot of blood, but this essentially binds the devil (or angel) to your human soul the same way a summoning circle would bind them to the earthly plane. so they could come see you all the time, hug you, etc.

of course, this only works assuming you actually are human. if you try to form a pact to bind a spirit to, say, a mimicry of a human soul, a spirit that's inhabited a human body for so long that no one can tell the difference, but isn't a true human soul...

well, it'd definitely hurt for the poor thing that thought he was human. and he wouldn't be human for much longer.

[headfullof-ideas]

Rivalries (at least ones that aren’t in the pre-existing lore, Ala Viggo and riders, Alpheus and Ant, so on and so forth…)

I genuinely don’t really see Snotlout and Alpheus getting along. Their personalities clash too much, and Snotlout just gets beef with anyone new in this story, due to trying to protect the other riders. Alpheus being a little pompous and cocky and ‘so this is the brainless muscle-head?’ Upon first meeting didn’t really help either. Lots of petty pranks and fights between these two, with poor Ant playing mediator, albeit reluctantly due to not knowing Alpheus too well himself, he just knows Snotlout. Honestly I’m not sure about Alpheus and Dagur either, i don’t know if Alpheus would play nice with someone named Deranged, though I do see Dagur enjoying messing with him, but that’s neither here nor there-

Kaiko and Viggo have had beef for longer than Fontaine has been alive, so Viggo starts sweating when he realizes that Ant is Kaikos kid. She also scares him a little bit…or a lot a bit. Assassination attempts have been had, on both sides. As well as petty smack downs with whatever they can get their hands on. Like the drawing above, where little-sibling-extraordinaire Viggo (not to be confused to these two being siblings, just that their fights can resemble sibling fights sometimes) is utterly losing.

Camicazi and Mad Madeline are a case of thief meets thief, but Madeline is better at it than Camicazi, with the additional bonus of being a sea-faring pirate, and also being nearly five to six years younger than Camicazi. And Camicazi HATES someone being better at something than she is, especially something she insists on being so good at. So naturally they clash. Maddie spends most of it just messing with Camicazi, much to the older girls infuriation.

I would like to clarify that Astrid and Fontaine’s rivalry has nothing to do with race, though Astrid has never really interacted with a person of color due to the overall whiteness of the Archipelago, Ant being the only person with darker skin she’s ever met till she leaves the Archipelago. No, it’s because they’re both stubborn, Astrid hates being called out on her not-so-great actions, and being held responsible for those actions, and Fontaine loves pointing this out and poking the metaphorical sleeping bear that is an easy-to-piss-off Astrid Hofferson. There may be a bit of petty grudge-holding due to what Fontaine has heard about stuff that happened between Astrid and Ant too, which also pisses Astrid off. Fontaine has the same flaw of being incapable of acknowledging her own mistakes though, so Astrid makes plenty of jabs in her direction too with the same effectiveness.

Heather is obsessed with Kari’s dragon Ardyn, and Kari is mad about the time she straight up tried to run off with Ardyn. This is probably the pettiest of rivalries here, next to Camicazi and Madeline anyways. Heather pretty much just pulled an Alpheus and started having beef with a thirteen year old for no real reason beyond spite and petty rage. Granted, little Kari is a menace who is not above biting, and has bitten Heather, so there’s some of a reasonable grudge there. (Especially not helped by Heathers older brother teaching the little brat how to shoot a crossbow-) It’s hard to feel justified venting to someone about it though when you’re reminded you’re getting into squabbles with a tweenager a head and a half shorter than you who hasn’t even started puberty yet. Heather’s younger than Alpheus is in the show, so it’s a little less embarrassing when she loses, especially when it’s over something wildly different

These are the ones I can think of, and I’ve got doodles i want to draw to further elaborate on these dynamics, that might not come to light in the actual story itself. I dunno yet, we’ll see. I’m juggling a couple of things irl at the moment, so new stuff might be a bit scarce, but i’m hoping to send chapter three to my beta in a few days! So hopefully chapter three comes out sometime in the next few weeks

[lapinposts]

how it feels to read people on this site criticize death of the outsider

[carnivalcarriondiscarded]

Im sorry but I love how Wally is just going ''aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-'' in the background while Howdy was talking during the video [im talking about the video of the Wally plush btw]

ikr its so cute!! a lil scream he scrumpt Wally Style!

[ganondoodle]

in all honesty, im feeling a bit burned out on totk, the more i think about it the more i dislike its story and lore, i dont know what to make of it it being so loved by everyone else makes me feel like theres something wrong about me :/ gonna try and take a step back from it all

[taviokapudding]

Simon's joke of "soup of theseus" is so damn good & way more layered than most people think.

Okay so first- what is the ship of Theseus?

So amongst his many misadventures and legends the ship of theseus was a ship the Athenians believed connected them to the divine living person that was Theseus. The thing is, he was maybe Poseidon's adopted kid/the King if Athen's son and probably not real (or at least if he did his misadventures were super exaggerated as royals = divity stories are) but the fate the Athenians had for him & Apollo (the 6 labors is a fun legend that explains their connection and what the original ship may have been) was so intense, they would constantly give maintence as a form of religious worship to said ship on the island of Delos (where Apollo's most sacred sancutary is) every year it would dock to pay respects.

Btw we don't need to know the specifics of Theseus but he did infamously slay a minotar and Finn did have a good exchange with the Mannish Man to get the enchiridion aka the book that sets Betty & Simon on the paths they are on now so that's neat af

So if you've ever heard about the ship of Theseus being paradox- it comes from the critique that's always existed about that ship's maintenance & religious practices tldr if you are constantly replacing each rotted and borken part of a ship, is it still the same ship?

The soup is a paradox like the ship

That paradox exists in many many scifi and adventure stories like the Nier series & Ghost in the Shell but in this instance we got to first look at the joke literally. Farm world's Finn's wife's soup is the same as the ship. The original soup farm world HW made no longer exists on a technicality, but the way Finn and his kids continue to add on and consume the soup is exactly like the Athenians. It's about the intent of carrying on the memory and keeping the soup around to honor the dead rather than the soup's original recipe {which also is incredibly sad & imples that farmworld Finn is both coping and never learned the original soup recipe}. It's a beautiful way to honor their dead mom/wife and it makes you wonder if that Finn did die if his kids will continue the practice.

But the paradox goes beyond the soup & into our reality

A lot of people have noticed that Fionna's last name is Campbell and Campbells is a real soup brand that would've been around before the great mushroom war. When Marceline gets sick as a kid, Simon goes great lenghts to get her chicken soup- that only worked out because the primordial version of the Mother Gum assisting {which is extreme Bubbeline foreshadowing}. And in that scene the can low key is a campbell design. But what if I told you there's more?

In Cheers, the tv show Simon is seen constantly watching and referencing throughout the original run of Adventure Time & in the recent Fionna and Cake had Carla Tortelli work at a Canpbell's Factory.

Neat references aside the soup ends the moment the main trio hit the remote button and I have a BA in psychology & interest in childrens media and entertainment that I want to milk for once. Metaphorical intention is beyond relevant episode specifics but actually the foundation of Fionna and Cake when it comes to the paradox.

Simon making the soup of Theseus joke is the main problem Fionna and Cake has to address

If Simon can summon his & Prismo's au from his head without proper MMS (Magic, Madness, and Sadness) where does Simon the human start and Ice King end?

As viewers who grew up alongside the series, the majority of 25+ watchers are finding Simon, older Finn, and Fionna painfully relatable because good fucking god we are all traumatized because of the ongoing pandemic.

If you want to focus on the main topic you can skip this part. But if you want to get very serious for a minute, please stay. The majority of people wont to accept what I just said about the pandemic being ongoing because global governments pretending the pandemic is over, the rise of depression and escapism in real time at a social level at a global level but especially in the US where the series is being made, and the daily interactions we have with most people refusing to mask up {with a violent reaction} when there still isn't a cure for COVID has created the perfect enviroment for most people to not accept change or crave extreme change. Fionna and Cake tackles these 2 very common forms of how depression tends to manifest when it's not fully manic to be displayed through Simon (self isolation from poor coping due to loss, detachment from society, dwelling on the past to the point it effects social interactions, extreme forms of religious practice, etc.) and Fionna/Finn (pretending everything is fine, avoidance, going through the bare minimum motions to survive, escapsim and dream of grandure, not caring about sel preservation, no/lack of self control with sweets/coffee, etc.). And I've noted there's a subset of AT viewers who don't relate or find the depections too real to the point they're upset the show's tone isn't as light hearted as AT. The thing is when a global disabling event happens, unless you were under 10 when it happened and even then it's a 50/50 because you probably did lose or know somebody who did die these last several years, you will have some kind of trauma response to it whether you like it or not. Hell, some of you unknowlingly have a gap in your memory about 2020 specifically due to inconsistent sleep schedules that have nothing to do with the shrinking of the brain mass COVID causes that we all call "brain fog" and now that I pointed it out you're probably going to go stare at a wall for 5 mins {sorry btw, doubly if you have long COVID and this is how you found out what brain fog partially is}. As someone who's been dealing with depression since I was a child, it's okay to be not okay given the last several years and doubly if you've been conscious long enough to see the US freefall into fascism too {which I hope encourages those who weren't aware that's been happening to go look into that because we can't get into it right now}. Because I unfortunately know what manic depression can look like - if you find yourself relating to Simon a little too much during ep 3, please talk to somebody who is licensed and trained to do so {not me, I haven't done suicide prevention work since 2017 and am not licensed- I genuienly won't be enough of a resource} okay? Don't throw away yourself nor change yourself for others only. You need to work to accept the past, move on to live in the present, and change yourself for yourself. It won't be easy and resources are out there to not do it alone, alright?

Becuase of how paradoxial and fluid mental health (espeically undiagnosed depression) can be and how AT has it's own version with MMS, could Simon have unconscious MMS still because of Betty's with without a battery but can't tap into it because of his mental state? And could Ice King as we once knew him even be considered a proper person Simon could return too?

The original wish of why Ice King's appearance & abilities is the way it is IS because of Evergreen's impression on Gunter {Evergreen was one of the ice elementals of the past btw- go watch the original Adventure Time for that context}. So Ice King isn't even an original character, just the crown building off the wishes and manifestations of each bearer by emulating a warped version of Evergreen. And that's the main reason why I speculate Ice Thing aka Gunter the Penguin is chill af to the point he got married and can exist with less gems. His wish didn't build off of power to protect Marceline (Simon) nor the power to copy Evergreen (Original Gunter).

As the main trio jump from connected universe to connected universe, more Simons and crowns will appear that are even more removed from our Ooo's crown and it's version of Ice King or Ice Prince or Winter King will only manifest because of the prior and current wishes made. So if Simon does get a crown that isn't the Ooo crown, will the Ice King that once existed even be THE Ice King he wants to be? And will Simon want to be Ice King or an Ice King when the trio do return to his Ooo?

The crown and it's many versions is a paradox that can only be resolved if Simon and Fionna can work together but also set aside their depression to address what they both really want and what that wish's intention will do to themselves and those around them. In short, shit's deep

I applaud the team for Fionna and Cake for tackling such a layered problem and I'm excited to see how Simon's soup of emotions, Fionna's growth, & magic crown of Theseus is addressed.

[asordidbarwere]

boiling one up while my gf plays battlebit