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babybells123 · 1 year ago

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Regarding the original outline + some thoughts on Jon & Sansa…

This is a long one. Buckle up.

If there is one thing I have picked up on in the ASOIAF fandom, it’s the knee-jerk negative reaction towards any theory/parallel/connection between Jon and Sansa. This was exacerbated by the show, of course but even now - five years later, there is an insane amount of vitriol that my brain is unable to comprehend. And here’s the rub; the infamous 1993 outline is the irony of it all.

In a fandom that is a-okay with *certain* incest ships (r.e D@enerys x Jon, D@emon x Rh@enyra, Jon x Aria), as well as blatantly pedophilic ships (Sansa x S@ndor, Sansa x Littlefinger, Sansa x Tyrio*), how is Jon x Sansa the worst of them all? I’m going to pin it down to audience engagement with the show, particularly around the later seasons when Jon + Sansa reunite and people began to ‘ship’ them. So many believe that is how the ship took off, and thus it is mere crack - but there are posts tracking back to 2012/2013 theorising the possibility of Jon x Sansa. Was it spurred by the show? Certainly! But it does not take away from the fact that people were making valid arguments and essays before the general fandom was even comprehending a Jon and Sansa reunion on screen. And people were open to discussing/debating it with general civility (a far cry from today).

I’m 90% certain people weren’t criticising those who began to believe in Jon x Aria when the outline was leaked…(though there were most definitely shippers before). But we never see the same level of vitriol towards Jon x Aria shippers, which is strange.

In any case, let’s talk about said outline, some of the key points - and how I believe GRRM made the switch from Jon x Aria to Jon x Sansa. I’ll be drawing from GRRM’s past works, interviews, art, and his personal life - as well as other potential literary influences. I'll be linking metas along the way, but without further ado - let's go.

In October 1993, GRRM wrote a pitch outline for a publishing company. It was three pages long and conveyed alongside the first thirteen chapters of AGOT (170 pages). The three paged letter was leaked on twitter in February 2014, though there were multiple aspects parts blacked out. Keep in mind though, this may not be the *only* outline that exists. There are multiple outlines that have never been publicly released (and will likely remain that way).

But let’s just focus on the 1993 outline, since we’re privy to the details. The thirteen chapters attached to the outline did *not* yet have a Sansa POV, and that’s because in this outline, she wasn’t listed as a key character.

The key characters were; Bran, Jon, Tyrion, D@enerys, and Aria.

The first thirteen chapters were; Prologue; Bran I, Catelyn I, D@enerys I, Eddard I, Jon I, Catelyn II, Aria I, Bran II, Tyrion I, Jon II, D@enerys II, Eddard II, Tyrion II.

I’ve seen people claim that Sansa isn’t an important character since she wasn’t listed as a key character, but they conveniently leave out the fact that a) her chapters were not yet written, b)she was given an entirely different more passive storyline in this outline, c) she dies, d) this was far far before GRRM fleshed out his characters entirely - Sansa took on a life of her own and she became her own solid complex character with an arc in 4 out of 5 of the books; 25 chapters.

In fact, since the books have been published GRRM has regarded Sansa and the Starks as a main character as well;

Collider: In creating this world, did you start out with one family and then branch off into the rest of the world?

GRRM: Well, the Starks are certainly the centre of the story, when it begins. It all begins at Winterfell, with occasional cuts to Daenerys across the ocean, because there was no way I could get her into Winterfell. But, we bring all the characters together at Winterfell, and they’re all there for a while before they start to go their separate ways ... .But, the Starks are the centre of the book and, to a lesser extent, the Lannisters. They are still the major players.

Collider: When you went into this, did you intentionally take the children, put them in an adult setting and force them to be in very adult and complex situations?

GRRM: Yeah, the children were always at the heart of this. The Stark children, in particular, were always very central. Bran is the first viewpoint character that we meet, and then we meet Jon and Sansa and Arya and the rest of them. It was always my intention to do that.”

Collider report.

May 2016 - Balticon.

(…) George said he was “pissed” that the outline was posted in the office building and that someone took photos and shared them. He said it was a letter for him and the publisher only. He was very firm when telling this and it showed on his face.

He then said that he is not good with writing outlines, making book deadlines, and that often in outlines he was “making shit up”, and “characters changed along the way”.

He went straight from talking about the references in the actual books, to the “differences” in the outline from then to now. He did say that he still knows who sits the iron throne and the end game of the main 5, but also included Sansa, but did not give any details (for obvious reasons).

[question if he is still going with the 1991 ending]

“Yes, I mean, I did partly joke when I said I don’t know where I was going. I know the broad strokes, and I’ve known the broad strokes since 1991. I know who’s going to be on the Iron Throne. I know who’s gonna win some of the battles, I know the major characters, who’s gonna die and how they’re gonna die, and who’s gonna get married and all that. The major characters.

….

“So a lot of the minor characters I’m still discovering along the way. But the mains-”

[question if he knows Arya’s and Jon’s fates]

“Tyrion, Arya, Jon, Sansa, you know, all of the Stark kids, and the major Lannisters, yeah.”

Balticon report:

“Ah, how innocent I was… little did that guy in the picture imagine that he would be spending most of the next two decades in the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros with Tyrion, Daenerys, Arya, Sansa, Jon Snow, Bran, and all the rest.”

GRRM's live journal:

So Sansa has clearly developed into an important character from GRRM’s words, and the key-characters argument can cease, because It’s very tiring to dispel that when the characters and story took on a life of its own. (I mean, Jaime was meant to remain a villain, but he was clearly given somewhat of a redemption arc in the main series).

I paraphrased what was written here for this whole section, so go check out the longer post!

The Aria in the original outline:

*NOTE: I am blacking out her actual names in case the wrong people find this post. None of this anti her, please keep that in mind.*

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, [...] The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, D@enerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Aria, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow.

Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned [what appears to say] will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter Aria escape back to Winterfell.

Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, will befriend both Sansa and her sister Aria, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Aria. Wounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran.

Aria will be more forgiving ... until she realises, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Aria throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wilding encampment. Bran's magic, Aria's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with the surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Aria Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Jon Snow

Observations:

Exactly how old is Aria? Is she a warrior princess who cries at songs like her aunt? Does she enjoy/yearn for romance? Is she a stunningly beautiful maiden rivalling that of Cersei? How close were she and Jon? Did they have a good sibling relationship? Or were they distant? Does she look physically different to Jon? Does she have red hair?

The Sansa of the Original Outline:

‘Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue.’

Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, will befriend both Sansa and her sister Aria, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders.

More observations:

How old is Sansa? Is she 16? 17? She’s conveyed as a less important character in this outline - why? Queen of the Seven Kingdoms? She dies? Jaime kills her? What is her relationship with Aria like? Are/were they close? Or was Sansa initially meant to be a two-tone villain who betrayed her family? Is she overwhelmingly beautiful? Or is she the plainer sister?

It’s quite clear that both ASOIAF Aria and ASOIAF Sansa are entirely different characters to their outlined counterparts.

In the outline, Tyrion sacks and burns Winterfell. In ASOIAF, It’s Theon and later Ramsay who does this. In the outline, it’s Bran, Aria, and Catelyn who go beyond the Wall. In ASOIAF, it’s Bran, Meera, and Jojen (and Hodor). There are a couple of other changes made here, but there seems a pattern where certain acts *still* occur in the main series, they’re just given to different characters (which makes sense, as GRRM grows organically with his characters.)

So, when we take into account the fact of ASOIAF Sansa being considered a main/key character, her marriage to Tyrion, and the possibility of her being the first to reunite with Jon - perhaps GRRM did keep a Stark x Snow romance - but gave it to a different sister.

In the 2016 Balticon report, GRRM stated he wished that ‘some past things didn’t have such strong foreshadowing and that newer things had stronger foreshadowing.’ You can make a case for J0nrya foreshadowing in the first book, but I’d argue that ACOK/ASOS is where the Jon/Sansa clues and foreshadowing is rife. (and there are certainly Jon/Sansa clues in the first book as well.)

Now to circle back. The Aria of this outline doesn’t have a personality - none of the characters do, really. We don’t know how old she is. Is she a teenager? Is she close in age to Jon? We know she has her needle, so can infer she is a fighter and spirited, but is there a soft romantic side to her? Does she cry at songs like her aunt Lyanna? Does she yearn for love? Is she immensely beautiful? For a narrative like this? It'd be likely if Jon and Tyrion are fighting to the death over her, sort of like gallant knights fighting each other to win the heart of a fair maiden (very romantic and idealistic, mirroring the songs and the stories).

(This is how I am certainly inferring such a scene would have gone).

The ASOIAF Aria we know and love took on a life of her own. She’s described as plain looking (some envision her to be more beautiful than characters like D@ny, Cersei, and Sansa though). - But just quickly on that matter, Aria is indeed compared to Lyanna in looks and spirit, though Lyanna’s beauty was described as wild and implied as non-conventional; different perspectives have different opinions on her. For example, Cersei, Jaime, Devan, the Maester who wrote the WOIAF don’t consider her anything special. Whereas Ned, Robert, and Rhaegar do. So it’s one of those instances where you aren’t exactly sure. In any case, Aria's looks aren't a driving factor in her arc, and I don’t see ASOIAF Tyrion (as creepy as he is) suddenly falling in love with her due to mere attraction because presently, Aria is all knobbly knees and elbows, stick thin, a child, not a maiden, who will still be a pre-teen at the end of the series, if there is no massive time jump.

SHE'S JUST A BABY.

But then, Tyrion did lust after Sansa, so there’s that… however ….

Sansa’s beauty is a driving force in her narrative arc. She is objectified for her beauty. Preyed upon because of her beauty; in many ways it causes her to suffer. It’s largely why LF is grossly infatuated with her - she’s beautiful like Catelyn. Tyrion is attracted to Sansa and wishes to bed her, the H0und intends to rape her during the Blackwater battle, he also comments on her breasts growing, Joffrey sexually humiliates her in court, Ser Dontos has a pervy infatuation with her, Cersei despises Sansa because she is younger, more beautiful etc which she views as a threat.

So, beauty is pertinent to Sansa’s narrative, and it isn’t vain or shallow to say so because it’s a large part as to why she suffers. And her physical beauty is meant to compliment her indulgence in romantic idealism; knights, chivalry, courtly love, beautiful appearances thus equating to good people. It also contributes to perceptions of Sansa; nothing more than a pretty, stupid girl with naive dreams.

So back to ASOIAF Aria: Her arc largely surrounds nature & nature, mercy, war trauma and survival, friendship, belonging, and family. For the majority of the story, she is a traumatised 10 year old travelling through a war torn country, witness to awful horrors, forced to assume multiple identities, until she goes to Braavos and begins her faceless man arc. But this is obviously not her endgame - she is going to go home eventually, that is quite clear.

You can argue she had a little crush on Gendry (as a 10 year old would) (and perhaps something may happen with him when she is older, I think GRRM has played with it.) But other than that, romance is not a central part of Aria's arc insofar. For outline Aria it was, but current ASOIAF Aria is on a completely different tangent all together.

(and that poor poor child is suffering immensely while this is all occurring). Currently, she has no time for/interest in it. She hasn’t been involved in betrothals/marriages, or had men lusting after her (save ‘Mercy’ and people men making brutalising sexual comments towards her). She disguises herself as a boy for a good chunk of the story as it is safer to travel.

No, I’m not trying to reduce any sexual trauma/objectification she suffers, she’s a little girl for heaven’s sake - I’m merely stating that what she is going through is in some ways similar and different to what Sansa is going through. (Who currently is in a in a very Lolita type situation with LF and men sexually intimidating/abusing her has been a key part of her arc - as I said, she suffers significantly due to her beauty. She is something to possess, she isn't real or tangible, she is a beautiful maid with a vast claim to the North.)

Anyway, ASOIAF Aria finds songs and romance ‘stupid.’

“Sansa would have shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid.” (Arya VIII ASOS)

(but that doesn’t mean she won’t encounter it later in life, it just means that at this point of the story, she isn’t interested/likely won't encounter some epic grand romance that outline Aria was likely destined for. (And she’s 11 for god’s sake!).

‘But Sansa was dreaming of love at that age!’

Sansa has been a romantic idealistic dreamer since she was a little girl. She adored those stories and is the literal embodiment of the mediaeval pre-raphaelite maiden depicted in art. It’s central to her story arc, to her qualities, and how she functions/copes with things around her. “Life is not a song.” Is so fundamental to that.

So to reiterate ASOIAF Aria is a completely different character to outline Aria- for all we know OG Aria was 15 years old, very beautiful to the point of men duelling over her, (just as depicted in art above) likely a romantic heroine, had consistent memory lapses that would cause her to “realise in terror, she had fallen for Jon,” and based off of GRRM’s past works - was probably a redhead.

“But OG Aria has a sword named needle!”

Indeed, but as I stated, we don’t know anything else about her beyond that. Many have theorised that D@ny and Jon are the epic romance of the series, but it’s clear from this particular outline that GRRM intended for it to be Aria and Jon as the epic major romance of the series. That would mean Aria would have to be a somewhat romantically-inclined character, for this development to appear natural and not forced. Based on her current ASOIAF arc, it doesn’t track for her character to make a sudden 180. Her softness and vulnerable moments come from thinking of her family and home. Insofar, this isn’t equated to yearning for love, romance, children, as Sansa has done from the beginning of the series.

Now, we know GRRM is a self-proclaimed romantic, and ASOIAF Sansa exists very much as a deconstruction of romanticism.

“He said he is a romantic, in the classical sense. He said the trouble with being a romantic is that from a very early age you keep having your face smashed into the harshness of reality. That things aren’t always fair, bad things happen to good people, etc. he said it’s a realistic world, so romantics are burned quite often. This theme of romantic idealism conflicting with harsh reality is something he finds very dramatic and compelling, and he weaves it into his work.” (2005 interview).

Sansa is arguably, the embodiment of this dismantling. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that love isn’t real, or that it doesn’t deserve to exist in a gritty world such as Westeros. There were many couples who had good, happy marriages, even after war and loss and trauma. For example, apart from the Jon Snow situation, Ned and Catelyn had a remarkably healthy relationship. So it is possible - the takeaway from the series is not that hoping is meaningless, dreams are meaningless, love is meaningless. More so that it is complicated, and it must coexist alongside all the chaos in order to achieve a sort of

equilibrium. A literal ‘Dream of Spring’ a hope for happiness, rather than happiness itself. It tracks with the bittersweet conclusion to the series ; it is a grimdark story, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’ll be a grimdark ending where everyone good and noble dies and wishes/dreams/innate desires remain unfulfilled.

In fact, I argue that a lot of them will come true - but at what cost? It’ll be at the cost of loss and grief, of suffering upon suffering, but what’s inherently more powerful, what’s more subversive is having those characters persist and rebuild, regenerate, create a new world where love and chaos undoubtedly exist alongside each other, but just because there is chaos, that does not mean the love is miniscule or cancels out entirely.

Because if all these characters have the most unsatisfying, awful conclusions known to man, well - what was the point of everything? What was the point of their journeys? This isn’t a nihilistic story, and it won’t have a nihilistic ending like everyone assumes. It’s far more difficult for an author to craft such an ending, balancing things out whilst acknowledging all the loss and still holding out hope for a better future to come. That brighter days will arrive. That winter will end, and spring will be on the horizon.

“We may lose our heads, it’s true. But what if we prevail?” (Davos I ADWD).

And that right there, sums it up perfectly.

So you need characters like Sansa, characters like Brienne, D@ny, (you know what let’s just add all the Stark children of the series to the list, because every single character arc is about remaining resilient and prevailing in some way or another).

But it’s Sansa who exists as the meta character that embodies/indulges in all those romantic ideals that GRRM is intent on exploring - it thus makes perfect sense for it to be her that experiences the romance arc. Many people think she’ll end up with the H0und, or Harry the douchebag, because it’s a part of her growing up, maturing, learning from her negative biases etc etc but she shouldn’t have to be with abusive or douchy men to learn that. She’s already learned and suffered enough.

“It is my claim they want. No one will ever marry me for love.”

And how utterly heartbreaking that she has resigned to think this, with her arc only mid-way. But importantly, just a few chapters later she enters the garden of undisputed beauty and equates the snow landing on her face with romantic kisses, she dreams of innocence and winterfell, despite lamenting how she doesn’t belong in such a pure world, she steps out into it all the same. And she builds her home in the snow, content and for once - she’s the child she is, the child she is yearning to be.

So Sansa falling in love with Jon makes sense on a characteristic level. It’s something she never would have considered as a sheltered child, not just because he’s her bastard half brother but because he just didn’t exist in her idea of how the world works. He didn’t fit in with her idea of knights, and courtly love and chivalry. He wasn’t a gallant golden prince, he was dark, sulky and brooding. He existed on the parameters of her life, and she was comfortable with that distant association - but she still loved him, and he her.

Falling in love with Jon would equate to a dismantling of these previous prejudices she held; he’s utterly unconventional, the opposite of what she has shown attraction to (despite her first ‘love’ being Waymar Royce, who resembles Jon strikingly). The man she never really considered beyond courtesy and some scarce, fond memories - to be the one who restores her faith in men, in love, in dreams.

“Realising with terror that she has fallen in love with Jon… their passion will continue to torment them.”

tracks with Sansa’s characterisation particularly, her memory lapses, her clouded judgement, and inability to interpret things correctly (and something as confusing as this would certainly cause her to have some cognitive dissonance going on).

Not to mention caution around well… men. Because who would ever marry her for love? Who would ever take her for true? Love her without expectations and judgement? It’s Jon. Who has been there since the very beginning, who has been a silent unconscious hero, the answer to her prayers, who embodies all those romantic and knightly ideals she has so desperately wanted - despite her being unaware. Who has advocated for her claim - above everyone else.

“No one will ever marry me for love.” And that infamous Jon chapter follows. Jon who is never quite far from Sansa’s suitors. Jon, who has a similar dream of rebuilding Winterfell, of having children named after lost siblings, who wants to woo a girl by giving her a rose and loving beneath the heart tree - the heart of Winterfell. Who would undeniably want to have that beautiful soul-nourishing love he never received as a child, that he believes is perpetually unavailable to him.

Above all, they just fit together. It fits with GRRM’s William Faulkner-esque “the human heart in conflict with itself".” And this is a perfectly subversive way of encapsulating that Jon confusing brotherly love and affection with romance, struggling with the shame of it all - especially post-resurrection, the religious disillusionment that would occur, the notion of Jon being loved by the kind of girl he believed he never had the right to, who his deeply romantic heart is yearned for. (There is a reason GRRM let us know how badly Jon yearns for domesticity, Winterfell love, children, and a wife. He associates his love for Ygritte with her singing, her hair, her smile. He dreams of her tending to him with gentle hands) The simple yet meaningful things that have been denied to him because of his bastardry. And god, what better way to torment these two than by having them fall for each other - realising they fit each other so perfectly, yet tormented by their familial relation. Until, as the outline puts, the parentage is revealed.

Do I believe they will act on their feelings pre-parentage reveal? No. It’ll likely exist in the subtext, in private thoughts and actions. Angst, guilt. Again, the stuff that GRRM loves - the human heart is in conflict with itself.

Much like Lord Byron’s ‘The Bride of Abydos.” Where half-siblings fall in love with each other until they realise they are actually cousins. Lord Byron, who was famously in love with his half sister Augusta, who was a stranger to him for a good portion of his life until they properly got to know each other and fell in love. (Who does that sound like?’)

And if you’re wondering how Jon and Sansa could possibly connect to Lord Byron, well there is a ‘Byron the Beautiful’ in Alayne II AFFC, and Alayne I TWOW. GRRM has further instilled characters by the name of “Manfred” which is in reference to Lord Byron’s infamous work of the same name. (I urge you to check out all of Cappy's Byron metas, they are fantastic.

And, Jon has been called a “Brooding, Byronic, romantic heroine whom all the girls love.” GRRM knows what Byronic is inferring - he isn’t daft, he’s a writer - he reads other works and takes influence and sprinkles in so many things.

A Byronic character involves:

. . romantic melancholy, guilt for secret sin, pride, defiance, restlessness, alienation, revenge, remorse, moodiness, and such noble virtues as honor, altruism, courage, and pure love for a gentle woman. (Poetry Foundation, Lord Byron)

“GRRM: I was always intensely Romantic, even when I was too young to understand what that meant. But Romanticism has its dark side, as any Romantic soon discovers… which is where the melancholy comes in, I suppose. I don’t know if this is a matter of artistic influences so much as it is of temperament. But there’s always been something in the twilight that moves me, and a sunset speaks to me in a way that no sunrise ever has.”

Infinity plus:

And isn’t that exactly what he would be exploring with Jon and Sansa? It isn’t a conventional romance by any means. It could never exist normally until Jon’s parentage is revealed. And that is the tormented nature of it, that is the “bittersweetness” of it - it is rooted in realism, yes - and that to me, is Sansa receiving her true love, countering that no one would ever marry her for love. The gods will grant it to her, - but it’s wrapped up in this darker, morally ambiguous thing that is confusing for her, even though Jon would be her dream come true - he isn’t this neat little courtly golden package, but he embodies all those ideals more than any man she’s actually met.

It’s subversive to what both the characters and the readers expect, and it’s just a brilliant plot twist that screams unpredictability whilst fitting together like a perfect puzzle. It creates internal conflict and evokes those themes that GRRM loves to explore. By giving the ‘heroes’ of the series a motif such as incest is extremely bold; because it challenges the reader greatly. Some people don’t want Jon to end up with Sansa because it contradicts the image that they have of him in his head - the heroic male who will save the world with his heroic counterpart and together they shall rule the seven kingdoms. To embrace his father’s family, claim a dragon, fulfil the prophecy, be the third head of the dragon, reject his stark-ness. Very predictable. Done to death a thousand times over, and yet - it is what the general audience wants/expects. It’s what the dudebros who call him the ‘GOAT’ want, it’s what the Targ stans want, it’s what the show watchers wanted - but what does Jon want?

“Yet he could not let the wildlings breach the Wall, to threaten Winterfell and the north, the barrowlands and the Rills, White Harbor and the Stony Shore, even the Neck. For eight thousand years the men of House Stark had lived and died to protect their people against such ravagers and reavers . . . and bastard-born or no, the same blood ran in his veins. Bran and Rickon are still at Winterfell besides. Maester Luwin, Ser Rodrik, Old Nan, Farlen the kennelmaster, Mikken at his forge and Gage by his ovens . . . everyone I ever knew, everyone I ever loved.” (Jon II ASOS).

“I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

"He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade.” (Jon XII ASOS).

“Red eyes, Jon realised, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.”

He had his answer then." (Jon XII ASOS)

“He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night's Watch. I will not father a bastard, he told her. I will not. I will not. "You know nothing, Jon Snow," she whispered.” (Jon VI ASOS)

“Ygritte answered for him. "His name is Jon Snow. He is Eddard Stark's blood, of Winterfell." (Jon VIII ACOK)

"Then you must do what needs be done," Qhorin Halfhand said. "You are the blood of Winterfell and a man of the Night's Watch." (Jon VI ASOS).

“You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.” (Jon XII ASOS)

“He sat on the bench and buried his head in his hands. Why am I so angry? he asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father's heir.” (Jon XII ASOS).

“If I could show her Winterfell . . . give her a flower from the glass gardens, feast her in the Great Hall, and show her the stone kings on their thrones. We could bathe in the hot pools, and love beneath the heart tree while the old gods watched over us.” (Jon V ASOS).

“If he must perish, let it be with a sword in his hand, fighting his father's killers. He was no true Stark, had never been one … but he could die like one. Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three.” (Jon IX AGOT).

Look, at the end of the day - we don't know how the story will go, but based off of Jon’s character arc? His thoughts? His actions? His relationships with his siblings? The fact that he has warged into a magical beast directly associated with Starks? The North? The Old Gods? The weir wood trees? I think that instead of GRRM having Jon go down the conventional disadvantaged male hero finding out he is a secret prince and thus becoming King and a proper Targ, GRRM will subvert expectations (much to audience displeasure) and do the opposite.

Learning of his true identity will just cause more angst and a major identity crisis. The one thing Jon finds real and solid, that no one can take from him - is that he is Ned Stark’s son. He raised him. Perhaps they don’t share a direct blood link. But that doesn’t matter, what matters is that he was raised by him, loved by him. So instead of choosing his father’s family; embracing the secret prince persona and fighting for the throne - he’ll choose his mother’s family. And I think that is beautifully conclusive.

But back to Jon and Sansa. GRRM is given the opportunity to explore the sort of impact this incest motif has on fundamentally good people. And I think this is what he originally intended to do with Jon and Aria.

Yes, we have Jaime and Cersei, but this is real sibling incest and rife with toxic narcissism, possession etc. We have the T@rgaryens, which are messy beyond belief and practice it due to blood purity.

But Jon and Sansa clearly differ from the rest, and that is because they exist partly as foils as to what we previously have seen. Similar to Jonnel x Sansa. By intentionally refraining from the development of a properly-close sibling relationship, making Jon and Sansa fundamental opposites visually, and associating them with entirely different cultures (yet writing their core personas as the same, their dreams compatible, their thought process and idealism similar).

GRRM manages to pave the way into such a romance that comes as a shock to the characters, the narrative, and readers themselves. Because no one, absolutely no one would see it coming, and the people who have been privy to the theory - immediately dismiss it - and become quite angry when it is brought up. Like I said earlier, a knee-jerk reaction.

To quote this brilliant meta right here:

‘Whether Jon and Sansa fall in love is up to the author and his intended exploration of literary/mythic themes that his predecessors have deployed. He is not writing from (or for) the moral values of show watchers and book readers, or their anecdotal hopes for how things “should be.” He’s writing a narrative that breaks away from conventional storytelling and what we expect from such characters.’

…

‘ I don’t believe the author is giving up completely on the romantic dream. He has made Sansa more cautious, converted her dreams into mere prayers, and has forced her to examine her assumptions, but he’s not turning her into the H0und, who is too pessimistic and fatalistic as a suitor. Sandor’s assertion that all knights are killers makes fantasy so small, it’s eliminated. I think he is setting Sansa on a path where her dreams do die, and her life becomes about as romantic as that smokestack in Cleveland - until they start to come alive again when she travels North to the Wall.’

'That cold, hard reality is still present in the fact that they are brother and sister, but once Jon’s parentage is revealed, this will change. Like an inverted Cinderella (clock striking 12), the reality will become fantasy again. But it’s still inladen with this bitter reality of their relations. So taking this into account, I believe Jon and Sansa could happen because there is no other couple in the series with which GRRM can explore his fascination with fantasy becoming “smaller,” but not completely shrinking altogether. There are no two better characters who represent these ideas, who have the same quietly domestic desires - who do not (at the moment) actively lust for power and cause it to blind them.'

So in essence, Jon and Sansa exist as the subversion of romance. In a twisted, loving sort of way that is morally conflicting to the characters and audiences (for a time). That has existed between the lines, subtly and implicitly. That the audience gives absolutely no thought, because why would they? And if they do, they are abhorred by it - but I’d argue this is the entire point. But not for the reasons you think, not because of the incest - or J0nerys would disgust them.

From the moment he started the series, GRRM has employed incest as a major motif that impacts both the narrative and the characters - the causes the war, that contributes to T@rgaryen values, legacy etc, that propels aspects of narcissism and vitriol for characters like Cersei. It’s really really interesting stuff, as uncomfortable as it is - there are no other works that explore it so messily and beautifully with such nuance.

I believe people seriously underestimate GRRM’s use of omission and subtext. Seriously, just because something is not explicitly stated, doesn’t mean it isn’t there. Unfortunately fans have such a surface level reading of the text, that they are unable to peel back the layers and get to its core. They don’t consider literary influences, or art, or the Romantic movement or anything. They claim they want a complex story that is subversive, yet they cheer for the three-headed dragon theory and all the most predictable plot points that have been absolutely done to death. But then they turn up their noses at anything that goes against the grain, or insinuates otherwise.

R + L = J is a great example of existence within the subtext, yet nobody denies that it is there. No one is called crazy or delusional for it. Ned never thinks of Jon’s true parentage despite harbouring that secret for years, because it is buried deep in his subconscious.

And much to the audience’s surprise (and dismay I'm sure) that is how Jon and Sansa will manifest. This is the human heart in conflict with Jon and Sansa, but not just them - the readers as well. It’s pointing to us, asking us how we’ll possibly handle it. We’re meant to feel this conflict of emotions - anguish and torment and yet hope for something ineffable - just like the characters.

To be able to evoke that as a writer is one of the most impressive feats I can think of - and for the majority of it to exist at this point, in a subconscious limbo? How utterly complex and painful and raw and intelligent but oh so very brilliant. Perhaps one of the most compelling things to come out of this entire series, if only the general audience was open to such discussions. But alas, we must contend with the community we have, and hope for a dream of spring to come upon us.

#jonsa #jon x sansa #meta #anti asoiaf fandom #jonsa meta #long post #lord byron #incest motif #original outline #literary subversion #sansa stark #jon snow

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azaharinflames · 3 months ago

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Can I confess something? I’m kinda scared of reconciliation and not because of the reasons you think.

I love our part of fandom, but sometimes we can be a little intense. Someone has a take, another person has a take on that take, than another a take on that take of the take (like we are still discussing who’s more to blame in the 8x06/8x11). And honestly it sucks all of the joy of the ship that mean so much to me. And the easiest thing is to step down, but I like gifs, edits, fics, silly funny horny headcanons, interesting metas.

But I can just feel it like whatever goes not the way people want and headcanon, the heads will roll. Instead of writing fix it’s, or headcanong that the conversation they wanted happened off screen there will be bickering and angry rant posts about takes. And there’s no way to filter that.

Maybe I’m doomspiriling before time but it’s just something that bugs me. I just wanna have fun and not fight.

Feel free to confess, Nonnie <3

Though I have to disagree with you. Partly. Because, at least from what I see, we usually take canon and are grateful for it. When have we ever made it so bad that heads were rolling? Yeah, we can have takes that differ from one another, and we can disagree on plenty of stuff, but just based on how we've dealt with things in the past, what makes you think this will be the time where we turn on each other and go the angry rant way?

I don't mean to sound bitchy, Nonnie. But Bobs did say that we'd be bickering and turning on each other post 806. We didn't do that. They said we'd be deactivating and fighting each other post-811. We didn't do that. We created discourse, theorised on what could happen next, and wrote a ton of fix-its. So. Genuine question. Why would this time be any different?

I undertand the negativity and the doomspirling these past few days have been hard, and I understand the anxiety that may cause. But this is indeed building on it, and assuming that we'll do a 180 when it comes to discourse and fandom space.

Breathe in, Nonnie. Things won't be like you are imagining. And if you are struggling with this, this much, my best advice is for you to check who is posting the discourse you find interesting, and that doesn't trigger you, and follow them. Follow all of the accounts that make you feel good, and just check those, and not the main tag. And whenever you feel like you can check the main tag again, then do that.

But remember. We are not Bobs. So don't be scared that we'll act like them <3

#bucktommy #tevan #911 discourse #anon ❣️

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magnus-marmot · 3 months ago

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Alchemy symbolism in TMAGP 04

I low key want to write an analysis where I break down the alchemy stuff in each episode so far, but that feels like a lot of work so I'll just start with episode 4, Taking Notes. Let me know if this is in any way interesting to anyone, since I'm not doing my usual theorising or fitting it into a wider metaphysical framework.

Spoilers for The Magnus Protocol episode 4 but not much else.

The Magnum Opus

To me, the most notable part about this episode is the one about the narrator getting lost in the woods and encountering the stranger. Because this part reads almost exactly like the allegorical tales that alchemists used to write to explain their Great Work. It also mirrors Jung's views on individuation which draws from alchemy. Common elements in such stories include (among others):

Dissolving into a representation of chaos, abyss, or massa confusa (the nigredo stage). This can involve imagery like drowning into a dark sea, or literal death or decomposition of bodies. In this case, it's our protagonist getting lost in the dark woods. This could also be seen as his descent into the unconscious (or the mercurial sea).

Meeting a figure who imparts wisdom, often Mercurius himself. (The way Jung interpreted this in his psychology was the encountering of one's own shadow, and also integrating one's anima/animus.) Mercurius is a weird obsession for alchemists and they wrote about Mercury a lot, but the most relevant part here is that Mercurius/Hermes was the god of merchants and travelers, and that he was characterised as a trickster. Trickster is also one of the shadow archetypes Jung proposes, so it ties nicely to this too. As you may have figured out, the trickster in this story is the merchant-like figure our protagonist meets in the woods.

The hero emerges from the darkness purified, in our case with an "otherworldly" crimson violin. (And then the hero marries/eats his sister? The allegories get wild. Fortunately not here.)

The Philosopher's Stone

The violin is interesting to me, as some alchemists (especially followers of Pythagoras) considered the vibrations of music to have purifying qualities and used music in their Work. This violin, in particular, seems to evoke the Philosopher's Stone, especially with how the colour was emphasised. No matter how conflicted the accounts are, the Stone was unanimously thought to be red or crimson, with the colour coming from the (metaphorical) sun. And the violin seemingly imparts (or as the alchemists put it, "projects") its ethereal quality on the music, transmuting it into "balm for the unhealed wounds of [his] existence". Emphasis on the word balm, which was often used to refer to the medicinal properties of the Stone (or Elixir, since it took many forms).

Now coming to the blood sacrifice. The Philosopher's Stone obviously doesn't need any sacrifices, but blood was sometimes thought to have a purifying quality (perhaps derived from Christian iconography?), and it was sometimes used as symbolism for the red liquid they used for washing the matter during the Work. I interpret this to mean that the blood was needed to purify the violin's music, as the impure vibrations caused people to go into a frenzy.

It's also interesting that the impure music caused people to specifically eat each other. Devouring is recurring symbolism in alchemy. It usually symbolises either the primal instincts of humans and animals, or two opposites uniting, such as the lion and lioness (sun/moon or gold/silver) devouring each other in the final stages of the Opus to create a unity. If I were to make a conjecture here, I could reason that the impure or incomplete state of the violin demands for other manifestations of unity. But this is not based on anything that the alchemists believed (to my knowledge).

What's with the hunger?

Okay, I confess I have no actual symbolism here to draw from, mostly conjecture. But I do keep coming back to Luna (or the moon) and things associated with. The moon is associated with reflectivity (as it reflects light rather than produces it), secrecy, and the dark, unconscious desires of a human psyche. Luna governs over the brain in humans, and in alchemical texts it's often conflated with Mercury. So it stands to reason that it's also seen as a link or a mirror to the collective unconscious, often through dreams. In Jungian psychology, it corresponds to the Anima (or the feminine) archetype, which is related to emotional sensitivity and the desire to connect with others.

There are elements of secrecy, dark thoughts and desires (eg. wishing harm upon the instructor), and a deep longing to be recognised, approved of and to get out of the shadow of his undesirable family position. He has some passion for his art, but it's mostly coming from a place of reflecting other people's expectations and the emotional need to be seen. This metaphorical hunger is further reflected in the violin's hunger for blood and eventually as the quite literal hunger of the audience.

This doesn't feel like an isolated case either. There seems to be a connection in the incidents with this kind of hunger and some deep, emotional scars or unresolved feelings, which in some cases become reflected in the actual reality. But these are just some of my own thoughts. Like I said, this case has few actual prompts for lunar symbolism, aside from generic ones like the night and secrets. Just thought I'd throw it in for good measure.

#written after tmagp37 #tmagp 4 #episode analysis #alchemy #symbolism #the magnus protocol #tmagp #tmagp spoilers

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seriouslycalamitous · 4 months ago

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Okay, first of all, I’m absolutely in love with your writing style, it’s so good and you’re so incredibly talented!! I’m really enjoying your shapeshifter fic, and am very excited to see where it goes.

Secondly, I was wondering how you manage to write so much each week? I’m an aspiring writer myself, and would like to start writing my first long fic, but I’m having trouble with the long part…. Do you have any tips?

Again, love all your fics, am very excited to see how the shapeshifter one will end (my brain is theorising so many random things), and I wish you a very lovely rest of your day!

-✨

AWWW this is all very very sweet!! I’m so happy you enjoy what I try so hard to write for you guys, that really does warm my heart! I’m beyond excited to post the ending soon!!!!

And those are some really good questions! I can definitely answer, though i might ramble a bit!

Personally, I’ve been a writer for a really long time. Ten years — so i’ve got my fair share of experience with writing.

English is my line of study, something I could rant about for a while if asked. Because of this, some stuff comes more easily for me than it does for a lot of people. Practice and time are the best ways to improve, whether you have traditional school backings or not.

And, secretly, I actually DON’T write a chapter every week! I prewrite the majority of my fics, and I only start rushing if I post before my fics are completely done. With my last fic, BTDOM, I had only prewritten 4/9 chapters, and I started speed-writing like 9k words a week once the updates caught up to me.

It was rough, I don’t recommend putting yourself on a scheduled deadline like that unless you’re confident. I know I can write pretty consistently, so I don’t tend to worry. For example, two days ago, I decided to add 3.9k words to Ch5 of CWTT and i wrote it in under 24 hours and then slept SO HARD.

While I don’t think i’m out of this world crazy, I definitely am NOT the standard for a regular fanfic writer. I practically write every hour of the day. I have the google docs app downloaded on my phone, so I can write while I wait for the bus, write between classes, so on and so forth. When you’re used to operating like that, and it’s your only hobby, you become kind of obnoxiously quick.

As for advice, a general rule of thumb is to try and write a little every day. A friend of mine has a writing goal to write 1k words a day - but that could be shortened to 500 or even less depending on your comfortability, it’s just constant progress!

When it comes to long fics, you should sit down with yourself and figure out what exactly you mean by long. My fics are long in word count, but short in chapter count. This is ideal for me, as it takes away the pressure of planning things that I think might never end, and it makes it easier to reach a goal without carrying on certain plot elements for longer than is necessary. I really honestly do recommend this!

Something else that is important is not biting off more than you can chew. Especially for your first long fic, don’t try to add too many, if any, side plots should they be avoidable. Smaller cast lists can help with this. You want to make sure you can complete the main story itself without having to stress over a loose end you forgot was there. If you finish writing, and you realize there’s wiggle room that won’t interrupt the main plot, going back and adding things, or making spin-offs in the same universe can be a fun treat!

You don’t have to plot EVERYTHING either. I tend to start with the end, a few generalized middle scenes in my head, and the beginning in mind. The fluff in between is where cute scenes like pirates debating their captain’s love life can come in! It’s recommended that these fluff scenes still add something into the plot, obviously, like showing the reader how a relationship is developing, how outside people view it, how this person interacts with a magical feature, etc.

A scene of, say, Scar doing paperwork without acknowledging anyone else or anything else beyond the paperwork for a thousand words is boring to read and will be boring to write too. Spare yourself!

Anyway, as you can tell, I’m super big on writing and I know a lot and I CANNOT stop talking. If you have any more questions or want any more advice on specific things, I love analyzing writing, especially in fanfic, and I’m happy to help!

Good luck with your fic!!!

#mitos asks #writing advice with cal #<- someone tell this yapper to SHUT UP this is like 500 words about writing fanfiction #CHILLLL #cwtt #pirate x shapeshifter au

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virto-the-weirdo · 3 months ago

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13 cards magic future AU

So this is basically me combining several of my smaller au ideas (ghost fedor au, clone puberty au, future au, magic superheroes au n whatever else came to mind) into one big au. I might shove more concepts into it if I come up with stuff.

On another note, this au, as big as it is, is completley unrelated to the rof au. Consider these different things.

Everything below the treshold!

Another important note, for this huge au, the theory that i wrote the other day abt how the cards work is canon, with a minor edit that after death, clone souls always return to the card world, they are magically connected to it

So if you want to catch up on that, heres the link to the post with the theory:

Anyhow moving on with the story:

it all begins with the regular 13 cards - clones are free, fedor is taking care of them

now, he wants them to become independent as soon as possible, seeing how emotionally and phisically draining it is to take care of 8 other people

after they got the paperwork forged, clones were now kind of legal citizens and could do a lot more such as get a job, go to university, move out etc. at this point, none of them are ready to leave the apartment, or dont have enough money for their own place. most of them goot jobs, kuromaku decided to go to university and has a part time job, and he also has a hobby on the side where hes attempting to decode what exactly magic is, how it works, and most importantly how cards work. sometimes other clones join him for the adventures, and at this time clones realise they can use magic with the help of their cards, but theyre still learning abt it so yknow not many big spells

now as time goes by, fedor becomes more and more tired, he thinks its cuz stress since hes basically parenting 8 ppl, but something larger is at play

he has been sleeping a lot latley, and it seemed fine untill it went out of hand

at one point when everyone was taking a walk together, fedor collapsed and seemingly fell asleep

when clones took him back to the apartment and he woke up, everyone realised he became somewhat transparent

fedor was fading away and they didnt know why.

it obviously had to do something with the cards and although reluctant, kuromaku theorised its because all of the clones have been free for a very long time, which naturally upset everyone because it implies they need to be trapped back into the card world in order for fedor to be ok again

also, later on they start to fear that, if fedor dies, they all might die with him, which is also a terrible option

thus begins the arc of learning abt the cards as clones race against time to find out how the cards work, why this is happening to fedor, and most importantly, how to reverse it. As they do, their number keeps dropping, because each time fedor fades more, a clone needs to go to the card world in order to slow down the fading process and buy them more time.

over time they learned more about the cards and their soul trapping mechanic, coming to the realisation that not only do they all have a piece of fedors soul in them, but that fedor is fading because his soul is currently incomplete

clones are linked to cards and fedor to clones, when all the clones are inside card world, fedors soul fragments are all in one place, so while they are there, fedors soul is more complete and not drained of energy

they also learn that there are still souls trapped in cardworld, maybe at some point the clones in the cardworld try to contact them in an attempt to learn what i just said (mybe they learn it from joker's soul but he asks for a favor in return, more on that later)

in the end they found out that, to cure fedor, they need to remove fedors soul fragments from themselves and fuse them back to him

seeing as how now they knew enough abt magic to craft and preform a spell, they do that, so fedor gets better in few days, but now all clones have only their own souls left in them

and with that arc closed a new one begins - the clone puberty arc

seeing as how the clones are now no longer connected to fedor like they were before, they start to change and differentiate more from fedor. some in more usual and some in more unusual ways

this is a very turbulent time in their lives as lots starts to change

fedor, although now cured, has a new problem, and its helping clones overcome the challanges of clone puberty, poor guy cant catch a break lol

anyways, clones resume their adventures, learning more about themselves and magic and so on, i already shared some headcannons for this part of the story so i think u get the gist of what u may expect, i have some comics saved up too

also somewhere here id expect some clones to move out and become more independent

also kuromaku is still studying and he lives in the dorm

and ofc the researching magic shenanigans still happend as there is still more to know abt the cards, lets say they havent yet grasped everything abt them, but enough to cure fedor b4

anyhow somewhere at the end of this arc, they are reminded of something by someone

basically, if we take into account that they got info they need to cure fedor from joker, he wants to cash in the favor and asks for his freedom (he probably communicates via spooky magic, mirrors or appears on his card or idk something like that)

not only that but there is this guilt upon everyone as they learned that there are still souls trapped in the card world

after a long discussion, even though they werent keen on the idea of more clones, especially not fedor, probably due to jokers threats and possibly nightmares and their sence of justice and morals or whatever, clones decided to free the rest of the souls, promising fedor they will take care of them

and so the new arc begins

the queens arc

clones, with the help of fedor, summon the queens and the joker, immediatley doing the seperating spell so none of the queens or joker have fedors soul fragments, as to avoid the fading situation from reocurring

now the queens and joker are very chaotic, excited to be free, and also probably having their own clone puberties

now this time, its on clones to take care of the new clones, fedor gets a well deserved break

at this point all the main clones are independent from fedor (also kuromaku graduated by now) so they have lots of opportunity for shenanigans with new clones as they attempt to show the queens the ropes

now joker probably has his own mini arc, hes like the most magical out of all of the clones n knows the most so he doesnt really need to be protected and taught as much as he needs to be contained cuz he screws around a lot

or not, mybe he flips everyone off and flies away to claim his freedom idk what weird fae creatures do these days

anyways, queens get to hang out with clones a lot, probably getting a lot of screen time if it were a show as they go trough their own stuff n misadventurres

kuromaku and nicole hang out a lot, bcuz nicole has an obvious passion for science n stuff, she goes on to follow her 'brother's' example and decides to go to a university, she has lots of fun explosive adventures

anyhow i imagine emma has lots of beef with og clones, being really rebellious and all but at the end of the day she realizes they just be wanting to help, and she chills a bit once they stop looking down on her (assuming they consider her as younger sibling that needs to be taken care of, while she sees them all as equals)

helen is excited to be here although a bit scared of this huge new human world, so she sticks around others a lot, trying to be as helpful as she can as she wants to repay them for setting her free

cleo... cleo is vibing. idk what else to say, she might go n become a psychic or something, scamming ppl untill others stop her, that would be a fun lil episode

anyways the magic shenanigans continue

after a while once queens are settled down as well, they all have their own lives, but theres a catch

they can all do magic now

after so long learning about it, each clone has learned a set of spells and abilities they can now use with the help of cards

and often when they do, they can firsth transform into their card clothes (magical girl style) and then be all superhero (or antihero or supervillian) abt it if they want to, but most of them are very responsible at this point and dont use magic that often as it aint needed that often

also if some of them do have some kind of superhero arc, they go under their card roles pseudonyms (for example, felix's hero name would be jack of hearts), and their identities remain unknown bcuz *magic*, probably some kind of cloaking psychic spell that prevents ppl from recognising them, even though they got no masks at all

they still have magical adventures here and there, kuromaku is still trying to uncover and scientifically explain magic n stuff so yknow, theres still lots of adventures to go on

there would probably be more characters that meet the clones n are friends or enemies or whatever

mybe some clones even start families

also just one note abt this au, it might be a bummer to some but like its my au so yknow

I do what i want

clones here are like a family and thus there is no shipping between them

Okay thnx for coming to my rambling about this giant au. I might post some sketches n stuff I have on it that I made for fun but dont expect anything too grand, this one is just for funsies.

I have some sketches and fics for it from all over the timeline saved up so you may expect those altho they may be angsty lol.

#13 карт #13 cards #land of kings #земля королей #au #alternate universe #future au #or something #fanfic #headcanons

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myladyship · 2 months ago

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The Handmaid's Tale

Before the show ends, I want to give my controversial opinion on The Handmaid's Tale.

The show focused on June too much, and it kind of ruined the story for me.

I want to start by saying I love June Osborn. She's a flawed character that makes me want to rip my hair out most of the time.

When the show were airing their early seasons, I loved the show and how they adapted the book. Season 1 and season 2 are my favourites!

When Season 3 aired, that's when June's plot armour started to show. Time and time again, June was being openly rebellious towards Gilead.

Season 2 ended with June giving Nichole/Holly to Emily, who had just attacked Aunt Lydia in Lawrence's house! I loved that ending, and back then I theorised that's when June is going to be heavily involved with Mayday and be undercover.

So when season 3 aired, I was disappointed that June was captured, having the soles of her feet beaten and being reposted to the Lawrence house, the same house where Emily almost killed Aunt Lydia.

Mind you, that was a second escape. The only reason they didn't kill June is because she was pregnant. How the hell wasn't June killed for stealing a baby, the most precious thing in Gilead? If it had been a different character, she would've been hanged for all to see! I remember that in that same season an econwife was hanged because she left her child alone in the house.

Maybe it was Fred's favouritism, but he was fresh off being humiliated in front of the council. Serena committed the biggest crime a woman in Gilead could do: read.

Don't get me started on Natalie (OfMathew) and her storyline! Hated it back then, and I still hate it now since there's a woman in Georgia going through the same thing (RIP Adrianna Smith)!

June attacked her in public, and she and the other handmaids bullied her to the point she grabbed a gun and almost killed Janine!

Why didn't Natalie's commander and wife demand June be killed for putting the unborn child at risk? Did they not know? Why was her punishment just KNEELING ON A FLOOR?!

And say what you want about Natalie; she did not deserve any of that!

I loved the plan of the flight of the angels. So, I thought once again she was going to work with Mayday for real this time. But NOPE! Back to another posting you go!

In the short Chicago era, I was excited to see how those who live in areas that are not occupied by Gilead live!

Which brings me to my main gripe with the show!

By making June the main focus of the show, they lost the opportunity of exploring potential characters and storylines.

I would like to start by saying I have yet to read the testaments, so my following questions have probably been answered there.

The world of Gilead felt so underdeveloped in the show. I always wondered. How do the econ people live? How are Martha's trained, and how do they operate with Mayday? How are aunts selected? What are girls and boys taught in school?

Instead of multiple long shots of Elisabeth Moss staring at the camera with an angry look to the point we have memorised every pore on her face, they should've focused on other characters and storylines not centred around her!

I would've killed for one storyline or character that doesn't involve June and her being the hero!

Because I don't think when Margaret Atwood wrote the book in 1985 with the intention of her main character being the hero that brings down the evil dictatorship! The book is a testimony of a nameless victim whose fate is unknown.

June/Offred is the main character of the show, but the show had so many opportunities to explore more of the story outside of June.

Before the book sequel came out, I remember the showrunners wanting to have a Nuremberg-style story arc. But since Gilead is still in power decades after the first book, they probably had to restart their story so that the next show could make sense.

#the handmaid's tale #the handmaids tale spoilers #the handmaids tale hulu #the handmaids tale season 6 #offred #margaret atwood

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franklyimissparis · 2 years ago

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wait i'm new here why does everyone think something happened in india

hi! welcome! everyone is mostly speculating but there’s a few things we know abt the india trip/specifically the aftermath of it that leads us to know that something went down (regardless of whether or not there were romantic/sexual undertones to it):

long story short, paul left india early with jane asher, his fiancé at the time, and john stayed. john was notably deeply depressed and suicidal at the time of the trip as well. and things were reportedly never the same between them.

there are quotations from geoff emerick about how the lads were fundamentally different after india and, though they wouldn’t speak about it, he got the idea that something had happened that changed things within the group and made those relationships icy.

there’s also a scene in get back where john and paul are speaking about india when john mentions “what were we doing… who was writing all those songs in your room” and then mimes fellatio to a microphone 😭

michael gerber wrote at hey dullblog this which i think summarises fans’ questions/theories about what happened between them nicely:

“Sometimes I think the inciting incident was something external, something private that happened in the world—John and Paul started having sex, or stopped, or talked about it, or stopped talking about it; perhaps something powerful happened inside the friendship at the core of the Beatles. One of them said or did something, and the other guy got mad, or felt betrayed, or something.”

honestly i can’t do all the elements at play justice as well as other people can but i would HIGHLY recommend listening to another kind of mind’s pizza and fairytales series which focuses on john and paul’s relationship in the 70s and what led up to all of this, as well as their sexualities and john’s mental health issues. episode 4 discusses the india trip and theorises what went down in a very thoughtful and comprehensive way :))

(and this is the article that quotation comes from, it’s just one opinion tbh but it’s an interesting take)

#sorry this is kind of long 😭 the lore goes so deep and i could have gone on longer but i had to reign it in at some point #and there are others who are far better about citing sources and painting the picture #there are so many theories about what happened and i have my own opinions on it as well but it’s extremely interesting to look into #and truthfully we will probably never really know what happened #john lennon #paul mccartney #mclennon #the beatles #what happened in india

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boinday · 1 month ago

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Would you ever consider making RTR a written novel and adding some art every so often instead of doing it as a comic? Would that allow you to do more and explore the things you said you wish you could or is it still the same amount of work as drawing since you'd need to add descriptions and all that. Or is RTR purely a visual project in your heart? Forgive the rambling, was just wondering your thoughts on that

You're not rambling, it's a really interesting question!

It's hard for me to imagine RTR as a written novel, as I'm a writer where the medium really influences structure, and structure really influences plot. Like, when I write a serial fic for tumblr, I'm shaping the plot around an episodic format, but when I wrote The Water Dog, I conceived the plot around the idea that it would be a physical book in people's hands.

Idk how to explain it aside from this: when I start a story, I have a bunch of possible plotlines I COULD take it down, and I whittle down which would work best based on the story medium. So for Hawthorne and Obsidian which were episodic stories, I picked plot points and themes that could be explored and concluded in a single chapter/episode, with only a few over-arching plot points throughout. The story felt like "in THIS episode we solve THIS characters feelings about THIS thing". That makes each chapter feel self contained and satisfactory, bc readers could be waiting a while for the next part so you don't want to leave a half finished thought on the table, so to speak.

Whereas in a novel, the reader doesn't have to wait for the next chapter - they have the whole thing. So I don't write each chapter as a completed journey, I spread the ideas more thinly throughout the whole story and only begin resolving the problems in the final act, to reward readers for making it to the end.

A webcomic is obviously a totally different medium altogether, and I sort of designed it to be read in quite a meta way - the characters are archetypes of popular story tropes, and we the readers get to see them through Fate's (the author's) eyes. It would be very hard to convey that through the written word, because you can't write the meta-ribbons into prose haha 😅 which are a big part of signaling the reader that "this is Fate's plan at work". Plus the red sketches and flashblacks were designed for a visual medium - unreliable memories versus real flashbacks. I just feel like I've designed the story and it's elements around the visual medium, and it wouldn't have nearly the desired effect if I translated it to prose.

Also, I'm a big re-contextualiser! I design all my stories with the intent that people will re-read them with a new interpretation of the plot now that they've learned some crucial piece of info. Because of this I love that RTR comes out in episodes - seeing people talking and theorising in the comments is like my reward for putting so much work into the comic! I love to see people having realisations, speculations, and getting excited with each other about what they think things mean ^_^ I'd be giving up that experience if I wrote it as a novel, I think!

#asks #sorry this is so long #i don't even know if it makes sense haha #my brain just categorises stories by the form they'll be executed in #and it effects which plot points I decide to explore and which ways I choose to take the narrative #rose tide rising

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iruludavare · 30 days ago

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{ ooc. I am meant to be writing other things but I am Once again thinking about Xerneas and Yveltal's timeline

~3000 years ago= Kalos War (Ultimate Weapon fiasco, both are forced to power the ultimate weapon and only save pokemon in the war by leading them to the Pokemon Village) [Xerneas and Yveltal are awake]

~2000 years ago = Xerneas awakens to protect the Lental region from a meteorite, creates the Illumina pokemon and the Illumina Phenomenon (Yveltal unknown)

~800 years ago = Anistar City npc's story implying their return to dormancy. The stories probably occur one after the other-- Yveltal's first, engulfing Kalos in darkness + killing a great amount of people/pokemon. Followed by Xerneas', illuminating the ravaged lands and restoring vitality to the survivors [Xerneas and Yveltal are awake]

300 years ago = Parfum Palace is built by a descendant of AZ's brother(? Someone in the royal line) with statues of Reshiram and Zekrom in the garden (not Xerneas and Yveltal) [Both are asleep]

X/Y = Xerneas or Yveltal is forced out of dormancy to power the Ultimate Weapon

It's just so interesting to think about, especially when you take into consideration the fact that the names of Xerneas and Yveltal, by the time of XY, are almost lost to time, save for the Anistar npc. In 3000/2000 years, their appearances were forgotten. The only people who witnessed them and wrote down the encounter can say their power was so overwhelming that all they remembered is them resembling the letter X or Y. Then, somehow, in 800 years, Xerneas' temple+Aurus island and their names are forgotten, and they're believed to just be named metaphors and dreams of hope to rationalise natural phenomena. And then you have the Interesting tidbit in pokemas where they have Serena, Sycamore and N theorise that perhaps the reason why Parfum Palace has statues of Reshiram and Zekrom instead of Xerneas and Yveltal is that the former pair are associated with the creation of a region, while the latter pair represent the destruction of one. WHICH LIKE?? Raises wayyy more questions if, after the war, the royal family might've prohibited the worship and/or mention of the two, perceiving their actions in only protecting pokemon in the war to be a betrayal against humanity.

It really makes you wonder if, after being forced to power the weapon, they had an Arceus moment and realised that they were too close to humanity and it was dangerous. And their solution was cycling the fragments of themselves throughout different worlds through states of dormancy and activity every thousand years. That way they could still play an active role, but then be absent long enough for humanity to forget them, so that the tragedy of the Ultimate Weapon could never be repeated again (until Lysandre) }

#❀⊱⦃ ⏤ {ooc.} ⦄⊰❀#long post #{don't mind me i'm just rambling and overthinking}#{also thinking about the fact that XERNEAS can learn outrage but Yveltal can't}#{X and Y you hid SO MUCH lore behind a throwaway npc that really needed to be expanded on}

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fifthseraph · 4 months ago

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I finished Assassin's Fate and.. I'm disappointed. And a little mad. Both from a place of love, because I loved the previous trilogies and the world so much. Rambling about it below (warning that it's negative)

This is mostly pieced together from stuff I wrote while reading.

FatF just didn't have what I loved about the previous trilogies. This is incredibly audacious but I just don't think it did justice to the world or the characters? There was little wonder or intrigue. The characters and relationships had no depth and were uninteresting. The returning characters were not real characters. (Edit my haterism was too strong here there was interest to some characters and relationships. Just not so much in most of Assassin's Fate. to me)

It's not that it wasn't what I expected or imagined, because neither were the others and I loved them. It's not that it was miserable and often hopeless because usually I love that, but it didn't hit here. And I like in theory that life just goes on and there's no happy endings and that their lives are Real. EXCEPT often the characters are betraying themselves…? (2nd haterism come-down edit I like the stone wolf. I like that they went into the stone wolf and I like that it was miserable. I liked the beginning and very end of Assassin's Fate but the majority of it just didn't hit)

I'm taking it personally, and I know that's on me! Hobb made her story and it broke away from me and that's fine. I felt like I connected with the story and world so many times only for her to say actually fuck you. And so often I was like oh she Gets it! About Life and queerness and so many things. And then every time she swerves at the last moment into things that don't make sense and go against things she established. Um. Or maybe it's just me.

I think what I'm taking most personally is that Fitz lived and died hiding. His arc in FatF was just.. sad. And not in an enjoyable way.

Also so many romances seemed to come out of nowhere or not fit but the single one that was an inevitably… all I can say about the Fitz and The Fool is that FatF (especially Assassin's Fate) gave a disservice to their bond. Smarter and better spoken people than me have talked about the queer themes. But to quote from this reddit thread 'Fitz could never feel safe coming out to Robin Hobb'. I agree.

It's sad to finish this series irritated and just wanting it to be over, and no longer being willing to overlook things that bothered me in the earlier series… But that doesn't take away that I did love and deeply connect with the other trilogies. I greatly enjoyed theorising about the world and it gave me Malta, Beloved, Tintaglia, and Patience.

I’ll always have the beauty of Fitz, Fool and Nighteyes joining. I’ll always have the wonder of Tintaglia emerging from her case. I'll always have all the tender moments between Fitz and the Fool.

Also despite all this. I'd still recommend it. I do love the world.

(Also I looked at StoryGraph and saw the glowing reviews and high percentage for character development... ok.. just me and my disappointment against the world...)

#lou reads rote #rote spoilers #unsure about tagging because it's negative but I'm surely not the only one on This Site who feels this way #sharing my honest negative opinion to the world… I stole Fitz’ character development

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phoenixcatch7 · 10 months ago

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Unrelated to the last post but MAN I wish I could make a list of characters view the canon fics that do it so well across fandoms but I really don't want to risk opening them up to deletion. It's only recently that these sorts of stories have been allowed to stay up, as only a few years ago they were considered 'too close to canon' and could - would - get forcibly taken down from just about every site.

I've lost too many amazing cvtc fics to staff deciding they were bending the rules too much to just post a list of links but... I wish they were more popular because there's some absolute gems.

Here, I'll talk about a few things they did:

Killed the protagonist and everyone had to rewatch his memories to bring him back. This was very controversial in universe and it made it work so well.

The protagonist was oblivious to the reading, not part of it. This meant everyone could theorise and debate between themselves and actually REALLY solved the pacing and dramatisation issues common to these fics.

The protagonist actually replaced a villain in canon; the reading was done pre canon and the villain believed he had gone insane was the one acting like that. It was mortifying but seeing his body make friends and get a happy ending when he believed he was beyond hope and vicious about it was heart wrenching.

The young protagonist accidentally wished to be understood and a villain took advantage of it. It switched between the reading and reactions and the protag desperately trying to defeat the villain and make plans to run away to prevent his revealed secret getting him killed by the government.

The very large cast was split into groups, but could contact each other via texting. This enabled each group to have wildly varying reactions and theories without having to constantly argue and fight. It made it more fast paced, and added tension as the villains plotted unsupervised.

A very small cast were on a road trip and found the protags audio diaries of his adventures in the glove compartment. This was a Percy Jackson one, and it built off the books' first person format brilliantly.

The protags purposely wrote down their adventures in books and sold them on the market to fix their reputation and earn some money doing so. It involved people frantically trying to verify the books and evolved into a pr nightmare.

The orphan protag somehow time travelled back to when his family was in hiding with his books. His parents and uncles read the books and got to know their currently infant kid in the process. (This was a Harry Potter one, and both the series and author got permanently banned from ffn years ago and it had gotten all the way to deathly hallows 😭. It had been in progress for over a decade and was immaculately written, I miss it so much. Author if you're out there ily.)

Midway through canon a group of the protags friends combined all of their memories in a crystal ball and shipped it to a conference where just about every important figure was in attendance. They did not tell each other of the memories they included. They did not tell the exiled protag what they'd done. Many unexpected revelations and betrayals happened during the viewing. It also made it so the only scenes that appeared were ones where other people were there, which was so creative and well done.

The protag was a powerful psychic brought in for questioning and made it everyone else's problem. It was hilarious.

For a video game canon a handful of trusted allies (and villains before they went insane) were secretly delivered the games by THE TIME TRAVELLING GHOST OF THE PROTAGONIST IN DISGUISE and played them. The main focus was the main villain finding out a) how to even play video games (there was an ongoing joke about ridiculous video game logic) and b) the reasons he went insane, in excruciating detail, c) his victim's perspective including his own history that future him died not knowing about. One of his friends got a spinoff video game about how all his other friends died tragically. Many people saw their own traumatic deaths on screen with about twenty pixels.

A group of next gen kids accidentally fell into their parent's memories (of a war they'd been lied to about).

The protag was the 'child' of an omnipotent being who got sick of them being a self fulfilling prophecy (which ended horribly in canon) and locked them all in a fourth dimensional cave. In the same fic, the protag was using illusions to maintain the appearance of on-screen canon while fleshing out canon scenes and implications. Really well written and the character relationships were 👌.

The characters parents got the books, and had to reverse engineer the events that led up to canon and also which character was whose unborn kid.

A villain made a wish to publicly expose the main group's 'lies', accidentally exposed them as telling the truth and themselves as the corrupt liars. Whoops!

Traumatised side character time travelled back to pre canon from an apocalypse (that wasn't in canon), demanding the canon be viewed to understand and prevent the events that led to the apocalypse.

Characters broke after the events of canon publish their stories as fantasy books to the unknowing civilian public. The fantasy people accidentally get hold of it and everything goes to pot. I swear this is a totally different fandom to the other one.

Dead villain ghost secretly witnesses a viewing, time travels back to adopt the protagonist and change history to his image.

Crossover where one character was revealed to be a character from the other fandom in hiding with a fake identity.

Protag lost his memories and everyone uses a magical device/ritual to restore it, becoming witnesses themselves in the process.

Characters were forced to watch amvs of each other and had to try and extrapolate the order of events and the symbolism of the song. No one walked away with the full picture, but they got the main problems sorted.

Someone made an uncannily accurate play and the characters had to track the creator down to sue them (and figure out how they'd done it) without revealing that the portrayal was accurate.

A travelling seer took severe umbrage to the body stealing protag and exposed him with receipts. He spent basically the entire fic curled in a ball of mortification.

The protag on trial for many crimes got the magic viewing device used on him in front of everyone in the courtroom.

One fic was pretty normal but every time someone on screen got hurt or sick, so did their 'irl' counterpart. It sped up the fic a lot as no one wanted to linger on the worst bits. Also the author used canon implications, that the protag was oblivious to, to low key scare everyone who noticed them.

Crossover where the adults of one fandom fought over adoption rights of the other fandom's teen protag.

The author only used cherry picked moments of canon to massively streamline the fic, which worked! All the high moments you want a fic to cover - epic fights, dramatic reveals, important conversations, silly moments, developing relationships. And absolutely NOTHING else, there was very little context. Made for some excellent moments of people frantically trying to explain themselves lol.

Character stared too long into the void, broke the fourth wall to watch their own media. They spent most of the fic about to cry.

Protags patron deities hosted a viewing to try and get him a gf/bf from their other avatars. He wasn't looking for romance but did eventually end up in a poly relationship.

Prophet reluctantly revealed his own version of events with the help of his sentient house. This was about a movie so it was pretty fitting thematically lmao.

There is so much potential!! There's so many ways to do it, branch out, give these sorts of fics a try! Don't get stuck in the rut of the same methods as everyone else, even in this genre there's all sorts you can do with it! Use some of these examples if you want! Get creative and don't forget you're writing a story!!

Of course, if you recognise or are reminded of these please don't link or name them*, but you're more than welcome to guess which fandom each belongs to XD!

*Except that Harry Potter one, please I need closure, it's been a decade-

#Long post #Characters watch the series #Characters view the canon #Cvtc #fic ideas #fic ref #fic writing #fanfiction #ao3 fanfic #ao3 writer #ao3 memes #fanfic #Characters read the books #ao3 #My fanfic white whale is that hp fic istg updates for that fic kept me entertained while I was bedridden for months and then I had #To find out from the authors friend that it had been taken down and her account forcibly deleted ToT. She said she was moving to ao3 but I #Think it got taken down there too before I even got an account to bookmark it :') she might still be there though idk #The name was something like book hater 34 idk. It was the only thing they wrote.#But yes! These are from a great variety of fandoms and are the ones that stuck out in my memory! I love this genre ^^

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