#i will though she definitely likes zutara

[stardust948]

I didn't see her facial reaction since we were driving at the time, but she agreed that it was pretty messed up. She also said Aang felt more like a side character despite the show being named after him.

[Explaining the Dumpster Fire ATLA comics]

Me: So Katara and Aang had 3 kids-

Mom: Ew.

Me: Let me finish! It gets worse.

[ecoterrorist-katara]

Ka/taang: friends-to-lovers or the Friend Zone?

It’s almost axiomatic, in any ATLA shipping discussion, that Ka/taang is the friends-to-lovers ship while Zutara is the enemies-to-lovers ship, and that differences in shipping tastes can be boiled down to whether you prefer FTL or ETL.

My first ship was Percabeth. My biggest ship was Klaine. It took me until Mockingjay to let go of my Gale-and-Katniss-are-childhood-friends rose-tinted goggles and start liking Everlark. I started dabbling in ETL because of Zutara, but I’m incredibly picky about it (do not ask me how many Dramione fanfics made me irrationally, disproportionately mad).

All this to say: as a longtime friends-to-lovers enthusiast, I should theoretically love Ka/taang. But…

My difficulty with Ka/taang as a friends-to-lovers ship boils down to this: Aang and Katara’s friendship was always narratively framed as insufficient, because Aang liked her from the start and always wanted a romantic relationship. And imo that dynamic really colours their entire friendship.

I like to think Aang would’ve been a ride-or-die friend — the type to give up the Avatar State to rescue her, the type to commit ecoterrorism and help her get arrested, the type to make her a flower necklace to cheer her up — even if he didn’t have a crush on her, but I will never know that. We never got to see the pure friendship part of friends-to-lovers, because the spectre of the romantic relationship was always there. Before the last five minutes of the show, Katara’s feelings for Aang range from “plausibly interested” (The Headband, Cave of Two Lovers) to “doesn’t hate it” (Day of the Black Sun, The Fortuneteller) to “no” (Ember Island Players). Yet Katara’s eventual capitulation to reciprocation of Aang’s feelings was always depicted as inevitable, starting from s1 when the prisoners during Avatar Day reassured him that she’d “come around” because he’s a catch. It’s as if friendship, even one full of devotion and mutual love like the one they share, is not enough.

And that’s just totally antithetical to what I love about a friends-to-lovers dynamic. I love romances where characters value each other outside of attraction, when they see each other for who they are (this goes double for pretty characters like Katara, whose complexity and imperfections are just as important as her beauty and her care for others). I love the idiots in love sub-trope, where they’re obviously into each other, yet do a bunch of mental gymnastics to remain in comfortable denial (we got a little bit of this earlier in the series, but by s3 we were firmly in Aang-pines-and-Katara-deflects territory). In every friends-to-lovers story I’m simply obsessed with the confess-and-kiss scene, but the version we got in ATLA was ruined by the lack of reciprocation, twice.

Over time, because Aang was written as so insistent about his affections, Ka/taang went from a friends-to-lovers story to a Nice Guy Friend Zone “why doesn’t she like me” story. I mentioned Everlark earlier: I got the same ick for Gale in Mockingjay as I did for Aang in s3, where the woman is not interested yet he still badgers her about it. (And considering Gale is canonically hot, I don’t think the relative attractiveness of Aang is the issue here). But Gale’s insistence was presented as his problem, his lack of empathy, his self-righteousness; Aang’s insistence was just a part of his quest to get the girl.

A lot of people say Zutara is a female fantasy, whether they mean it in a positive or pejorative way. Nobody says the same about Ka/taang, even though women definitely have friends-to-lovers fantasies too. A good friends-to-lovers story reminds me of all the times when I was an idiot before getting together with a friend I was actually head-over-heels for. Ka/taang reminds me of all the times when I was not interested in a friend and they didn’t respect my preference. Friends-to-lovers is a delicate balance, maintained only by unerring mutual respect and unconditional care for each other, and it can veer into Nice Guyism if the writers aren’t thoughtful about why this dynamic is so appealing. Which is exactly what happened with Ka/taang.

[reunionatdawn]

Weighing in on ATLA shipping discourse

Iroh: You're not the man you used to be, Zuko. You are stronger and wiser and freer than you have ever been. And now you have come to the crossroads of your destiny. It's time for you to choose. It's time for you to choose good.

Why did Zuko have a fever after decided to let go of his Blue Spirit mask? Well, the imagery suggested that he experienced a Kundalini awakening. A Kundalini awakening is a profound spiritual experience that involves the activation and rising of Kundalini energy, located at the base of the spine. In Hindu and yogic traditions, Kundalini is often depicted as a coiled serpent, symbolizing dormant spiritual potential.

Ida and Pingala are the two energy channels that run alongside the spinal column and correspond to the left and right sides of the body, respectively. Ida is associated with the feminine or yin aspect. It is linked to qualities such as calmness, receptivity, intuition, and nurturing. It is also associated with the moon, coolness, and the element of water.

Pingala represents the masculine or yang aspect. It is associated with qualities such as activity, dynamism, alertness, and willpower. It is associated with the sun, warmth, and the element of fire. In the yogic tradition, the balance and harmonization of Ida and Pingala are considered essential for achieving physical, mental, and spiritual well-being.

Once the two energies combine at the crown chakra, a person's consciousness is supposed to transcend duality. What does that mean, exactly? It means to move beyond the perception of reality as consisting of opposing or dualistic concepts, such as good and bad, light and dark, right and wrong, or self and other. You understand that these apparent opposites are part of the same unified whole and are interconnected in a deeper, more profound way.

"I was head writer of ATLA, and this is exactly how I see it! There was some controversy that Zuko made the "wrong choice" at the end of season 2. A lot of fans were ANGRY! But it had to be this way… we wanted him to get everything he thought he wanted. The triumphant return. His father's respect, and a seat at his right hand. Only then could Zuko truly outgrow these things, and choose to do the right thing in a meaningful way." (Aaron Ehasz)

So, the symbolism definitely favors Zutara in that respect. Katara learned through Zuko that the Fire Nation is not innately evil. Even though he hurt her with his "wrong" decision, part of her character arc was understanding why he did it and being able to forgive him. And because he made that choice, she could trauma-dump onto him and that led to her gaining closure about her mother's death.

"I was head writer of ATLA. Azula and Zuko's relationship was not always well understood, even by the team internally. Azula loved Zuko, more than anyone save her father. She also felt competitive with him for their parents' attention of course, but since she had alienated herself from her mother, she focused her energy on pleasing dad… which of course meant acting in more and more intense and possibly evil ways." "By the end of the series, of course, her loss of her friends shatters the part of her identity that she could somehow control affection and love through intimidation. As a result she spirals… I did however intend to leave a kernel of humanity, and had we made a season 4 Azula would have completely bottomed and we would have explored the possibility of a path to redemption. True story!" (Aaron Ehasz)

But it's not even just Zutara. What I found interesting was that Azula was the blue dragon and Iroh the red dragon. Azula was crazy and needed to go down, right? By siding with his sister, you're meant to think that Zuko chose "evil" instead of "good". But it looks like some of the writers meant for it to be more complicated than that. There was no "good" or "evil" choice. Azula had a softer "yin" side, too.

Zuko wanted to get along with his sister. He did not want to kill her, even though Iroh thought that was the only option. The fact that Azula never got her redemption arc did a massive disservice to Zuko's arc as well. The fact that Azula had good in her is exactly why Zuko's choice in BSS couldn't truly be called "wrong" or "evil".

Azula loved Zuko and that idea wasn't conveyed very well in the cartoon. She was the one person on that beach who actually did understand him. She was jealous that Zuko chose the Avatar over her. And she knew that targeting Katara with her lightning was the best way to hurt Zuko. Katara found a non-lethal way to defeat Azula for Zuko's sake. Because after seeing how hard it was for him to fight her, she finally understood why he made his choice in Ba Sing Se.

"[Azula] had not bottomed in the end of season 3, she had further to go. At the deepest moment in her own abyss she would have found: Zuko. Despite it all, her brother Zuko would be there for her. Believing in her, sticking by her, doing his best to understand and help her hold her pain that she can no longer hold alone. Zuko — patient, forgiving, and unconditionally loving – all strengths he gained from Uncle Iroh." "And I always imagined that after coming out the other side, she would be one of those people who hilariously over-shares her own feelings all the time, and that she would be a bit over-apologetic. Like a Canadian version of Azula." (Aaron Ehasz)

The first episode of Book 3 was called The Awakening. Aang literally awakened to the energy twisted up in the middle of his back. He did not complete his spiritual transformation. The Kundalini energy did not reach his crown chakra. It was still blocked because he had an attachment to Katara that he hadn't worked through yet.

Zuko's awakening was figurative. Mai didn't understand how he felt. Symbolically, when she turned his head to kiss him, it showed the audience the scarred side of his face. When Zuko lied his sister, the unscarred side of his face was shown. I suspect that the writer for the episode, Aaron Ehasz, wanted to hint that Zuko did still feel a connection to Katara and didn't want Azula going after her and Aang.

Zuko in The Crossroads of Destiny was not supposed to be the same Zuko from The Avatar State. Both versions of Zuko still wanted to go home. But 201 Zuko was motivated more by selfish attachment. 220 Zuko was more motivated by love. He loved Azula unconditionally. Even with all of her twisted, ugly, and cruel behavior. His consciousness had transcended the duality of Iroh and Azula being opposites where one is "bad" and the other is "good". During The Beach he was fantasizing about a time when Iroh played with both of them as little kids. Back when they were all a family.

Mai: You know what will make you feel better? Ordering some servants around. I might be hungry for a whole tray of fruit tarts. And maybe a little palanquin ride around town. Double time.

I don't dislike Mai. I think she is an interesting character who was not a bad person or anything. I just thought she served a very specific narrative purpose. She was there to show how Zuko wasn't compatible with his old lifestyle anymore.

Mai wanted a typical socialite boyfriend. They really didn't get along too well or have much to say to each other during The Beach. She didn't like him when he started talking about his trauma and showed his uglier side. Zuko was insecure and jealous because he was not even sure if she really liked him. And she didn't even know the person he was after his banishment, only the person he was as a child. When he turned his head away from her, his unscarred side was shown.

Zuko: When I got to the meeting, everyone welcomed me. My father had saved me a seat. He wanted me next to him. I was literally at his right hand. Mai: Zuko, that's wonderful! You must be happy. Zuko: During the meeting, I was the perfect prince. The son my father wanted. But I wasn't me.

He walked out of that war meeting with the scarred side showing. Mai didn't love Zuko. She loved the perfect prince. The fantasy she built up in her head and the role Zuko was acting out at the start of the episode when he was ordering her the fancy fruit tarts.

Mai: I guess you just don't know people as well as you think you do. You miscalculated. I love Zuko more than I fear you.

Mai stood up to Azula to save Zuko, and she genuinely believed she loved him. But he left her behind to be with his new companions. If not for Ty Lee, she would have died. That should have been the end of that relationship. I thought it was very weird that they got back together. The NATLA writers should definitely find a different way to conclude Mai and Ty Lee's character arcs. Especially Mai. She deserved a more dignified ending than being left in prison and then threatening her ex-boyfriend to take her back.

"I love that even though Aang is sort of not in this story very much, to me, he's-his presence is in all of these scenes 'cause you know he's like the little angel on her shoulder [...]" (Bryan Konietzko)

The main reason I think the shipping discourse in the ATLA fandom is so toxic is because the creators Mike and Bryan saw the narrative differently than the other writers. They seemed to have a completely different vision for the story and characters compared to the head writer. So, there were two conflicting visions and fans who liked one over the other could argue their side indefinitely. Bryke saw things as more black-and-white and good vs. evil. You can see it in some of the interviews and commentary, particularly with Bryan.

IMO, there really was no "good" and "evil" side in The Southern Raiders. There was no "angel" or "devil" sitting on Katara's shoulders. To Katatra, what Aang said must have sounded like nothing more than a trite platitude. It's true that in the end, she didn't choose violence. But I don't think Aang's words were very pertinent to her decision-making when she finally faced Yon Rha, LOL.

It's understandable why Aang would come off as preachy, though. He was just a child coping with his own grief. The Air Nomads' philosophy was one of the only things he had left of them, after all. Such a teaching was no doubt his own personal coping mechanism.

Aang was right in the sense that Katara didn't need to resort to violence in the end. But ya know, maybe she would have if she didn't have someone by her side who understood her inner darkness and accepted her even if she had chosen violence. Just like how Aang might have killed the sanbenders if Katara hadn't been there. And Katara would not have condemned him if he had done so.

"Zuko and Katara might have shared some sparks, but sometimes there are people along your 'journey of love' who are there to teach you about yourself and what you really need, but don't necessarily end up being your partner. Come on, kids! 'Zutara' never would have lasted! It was just dark and intriguing." (Bryan Konietzko)

Zuko was a character of duality. Yin and Yang. Light and shadow. His two sides were represented by the scarred side and non-scarred sides of his face. I think Bryan viewed Zutara as a "dark" ship because a big part of Zutara was about Katara's shadow side.

Just like Mai did with Zuko, Aang built up a fantasy version of Katara in his head. The perfect, well, "waifu," I guess. The endlessly patient feminine maternal figure. The sweet beautiful girl with such manageable hair. But that's only half of who she was. There was another side to her that he never saw. One that used bloodbending. Angry, hateful. Yes, even ugly. And that's not a bad thing. It's human.

[sokkastyles]

As the eldest daughter in my family, I've always kind of related to Katara in some ways. I wasn't parentified like she was, but whenever I saw her trying to keep things together for the Gaang in the show or whenever I see her being the emotional anchor for the Gaang in a way, I could really relate to that, especially because Katara is sort of always expected to be that person for everyone and she never really gets a break from it. I'm nowhere near as incredible as Katara is, but I have experienced being the person who was always expected to be kind and forgiving, always willing to compromise and understand, and never really being allowed to be mean or angry or even make mistakes in the same ways that some of my other family members were allowed to do. I've heard my family members say things like "that's just what that person is like, that's just what their personality is like, nothing you can do about it." It still frustrates me to hear that, because it often feels like I've never been given that same margin of error. I'm not an ideal older sister or daughter by any means and I've definitely made mistakes. I'm sure there must be other girls and women who can relate to this too. And I think one of the main reasons Zutara has always been, and still is, appealing to me is because Zuko sees Katara for who she is, the good parts and the less than perfect parts, and he doesn't ever make her feel guilty about any of it. He takes her seriously, gives her a lot of care and emotional support, and is very good at meeting her where she is and trying to understand her rather than dismissing the parts of her personality that he doesn't understand or are more complicated. That's the type of emotional support I would like from a partner one day, and I wish Katara and Zuko had ended up together for that reason too.

Tbh, when people (usually KA shippers) talk about Katara getting to be a child with Aang, they talk about in based on the idea that what she needs is to be like Aang. They want her to be carefree and do cute things like penguin sled. And even though Katara enjoys doing those things, when she penguin sleds with Aang, she doesn't actually experience herself as a kid again. Her reaction is "I haven't done this since I was a kid," and Aang points out that she talks as if she isn't still a kid, because she doesn't feel like one, and going penguin sledding doesn't magically transform her. If anything, that scene emphasizes how much Katara does not consider herself a kid. Which doesn't mean she isn't one, but Katara's attitude towards penguin sledding highlights her parentification, not reverses it.

When Katara acts like a kid, she often acts in ways that get her hated by the fandom. In what scenes does Katara actually get to experience being a kid again, I ask you?

Katara's inner child is not happy-go-lucky like Aang. Katara's inner child is selfish and full of anger and grief and fear. And validating that child is just as important as Katara getting the opportunity to play. I just find it interesting that certain people scream about letting Katara be a kid when she's doing the things that Aang wants her to do, and yet one of the episodes that show Katara the most in touch with the child she is is an episode where she gets accused of acting in a way that is not herself or too adult or too dark.

Katara avenging her mother and confronting the man who murdered her is an acknowledgement of Katara's stolen childhood and one of the most clear expressions she has of taking it back, literally reclaiming her identity. And she doesn't do it in a way that's innocent or kind or cute or wholesome or acceptably feminine, but it still comes from a need to be the child she is.

And Zuko is the one who makes that happen for her, and who doesn't tell her what the mature or proper way to do it is.

I read a quote recently from a review of the remake of Carrie that instantly made me think of Katara, and I feel like it's relevant both in the ways we talk about Katara as a heroic character and as a parentified child.

Whether she’s volunteering to take her sister’s place in the arena or grooming her son to lead the resistance; gunning down the gangsters who sell drugs to the kids in her neighborhood or swinging swords to avenge her daughter, the “strong female character” is often stirred by a maternal concern, a quintessential desire to preserve her community, to protect the weak and vulnerable. Her bad-assery must be in the service of a greater good. Even when she’s more ethically complex (like the Bride, who begrudgingly admits that all the people she killed to get to her daughter, “felt good”), she never takes a place at the table of Walter White’s grand epiphany: “I did it for me.”

- Laura Bogart, The Trouble With Carrie: Strong Female Characters and Onscreen Violence

Katara's actions in the Southern Raiders are one of the best expressions of her being a child because she does it for herself. She does it BECAUSE she is a child and she was hurt. When Katara is penguin sledding because Aang asked her to, it never approaches the point where she's doing it for herself or letting go of the idea that she isn't a kid like the others around her. It's only when she's confronting Yon Rah that she's acting not as her mother's replacement, but as the child who was left behind. The child who, like Carrie, needed the adults around her to protect her.

Of course, Katara's actions are nowhere near as extreme as Carrie's, but both stories tap into something intrinsic about girlhood and the desire for validation in a world that adultifies girls but at the same time tries to keep them infantalized.

[innocentimouto]

I'm fully prepared to give this person the benefit of the doubt that they probably were in a rush and didn't get to articulate what they meant properly because there's no way someone could disapprove of Kataang because they "couldn't go for someone younger than them" and then bring up Zutara....

Also the idea that she would be the dominant energy is purely from believing sweet, soft boi fanon Zuko is canon. How is it empowering to act like Aang, someone who is "far too young for her" is more powerful in the relationship and she therefore needs to be with someone less dominant than her?

Is Aang either too young for her or is he too controlling for her? You want us to believe he's too immature to be in a relationship with her WHILE saying he would be dominant to her? Just say you don't like Kataang.

i’m gonna be real katara’s baby crush on aang throughout the entire series was NOT subtle whatsoever and the only reason people don’t see it is because she’s a brown girl so they refuse to see her as the child she is

[yuttikkele]

i finished a new media so now it’s time for ATLA PRIDE HCs WOOOO!!!

so aang is unlabeled (and doesn’t identify as unlabeled either 💀💀) in all areas basically. he loves freely and doesn’t see gender or sex. he doesn’t see it in himself either. he mostly presents and refers to himself as a dude, but he found out he doesn’t mind being seen as a lady either. he’s crushed on katara and zuko during different points in his life, but he settled on katara. functionally, he’s pan and genderfluid.

katara is queer. she is the most unqueer queer ever though. she acts straight as a board I tell ya. she doesn’t really confine herself to labels much either, but she can tell you she was surprised at how much she enjoyed Lady Aang when that first became a thing.

sokka is bi. he probably thought men were supposed to marry women, but he quickly got over it when he got over his short lived misogyny. bi awakening wasn’t really a thing, he just sorta knew he always liked boys and girls. he’s had many crushes, but yue and suki are the ones that always stood out the most for him. obvi he dabbles in drag, that’s like sorta a canon thing. zuko’s autistic charms get to him and he ends up developing a crush on him.

toph is an aroace lesbian. she only dates the finest of women. she can tell she’ll read your heart with her feet.

zuko is gay like GAAAYYYY I don’t mean to bring accidental cheesy puns into this but he is a FLAMING homosexual, and I refuse to believe otherwise. at some point I said “I like zutara, but I just think atla is way funnier when in the back of your mind, zuko is gay.” anyways he’s gay and sex repulsed. zuko didn’t know he liked boys until he was 17, and he didn’t realize he was completely gay until a year later. he was very comphet and was always expected to produce a blood heir, and he didn’t think much of it. looking back, zuko noticed how he did find boys cute when he was younger and often avoided them because of it. he could sense that he and his sister were different, but he always thought that was because they were royalty. he only really started dating mai because they had so much in common, he thought that’s what was supposed to happen. when zuko, not long after becoming fire lord, realized he liked boys, he kept it to himself. a year later when he realized he only liked boys, he vented about it to mai, and she helped him through it. they broke up, but he still values her friendship. zuko finally gets with sokka in his 20s. yeah it took that long.

OTHER CHARACTERS THAT AREN’T GAANG THAT COME TO MIND!!

azula is a LESSSBIAAAAN that is a lesbian

I wanna say suki and ty lee are dating

smeller bee is definitely trans I don’t wanna hear it

uncle iroh doesn’t care. he loved his wife whatever happened to her, and he would also date a man.

EDIT: sorry just here to say that zukaang is endgame actually. they get together in aang’s mid to late 20s after pining for a long time. aang always had sorta an underlying unspoken crush on zuko, and zuko caught feelings when aang shot up taller than him and he realized aang got really handsome. and yknow. the fact that THEY’RE SOULMATES.

[burst-of-iridescent]

I’ve been reading a series where a guy is in a near identical situation to Katara was in The Southern Raiders. But what I find interesting is that no one really tries to stop him and the fandom considers it completely justified. I can’t help but think despite it being two different series and fandoms that Katara’s gender has at least something to do with this. When a male character wants to seek revenge and kill the murderer to do it, the narrative and fans justify it but when it’s a female character she’s vilified, seen as out of control and letting her emotions get the better of her. I hate when people say Aang was right to say what he did and try to stop Katara from making her own choice. It doesn’t help that we know Bryke is misogynistic based on well everything to do with their female characters post series after they didn’t have the talented writers who actually understood the characters helping them. And sure I know Bryke themselves didn’t write The Southern Raiders but we know from script leaks that there were more shippy Zutara moments that were cut and I think we know who’s to blame for that. So I wouldn’t be surprised if they still influenced the more problematic parts of that episode. Such as Aang and Katara never talking about or resolving their conflict, Sokka calling Aang wise beyond his years and never talking about or resolving his side if things with Katara, and even Zuko weirdly agreeing with Aang at the end that “you were right about what Katara needed.” Even though she literally just told Aang a second ago that he was wrong and she would never forgive him and doesn’t know why she couldn’t kill him. If you couldn’t tell I have rather mixed feelings about TSR episode.

Sorry for the ramble. How do you think their conversations (Katara, Aang, and Sokka) would go if they were to talk about it all after the episode?

oh misogyny definitely plays a part - just compare the way people react to inigo montoya from the princess bride vs katara in tsr - but i think the bigger issue is the overt narrative framing of the episode.

on a first watch, tsr appears to push a very simplistic idea of "violence = bad" and strongly favours aang's perspective, which encourages the viewer to see him as being in the right while katara and zuko appear to be in the wrong. the fact that aang never changes his perspective and both zuko and sokka are (forcibly and very uncharacteristically) made to take his side by the end naturally inclines the audience to do so as well.

it's only with a closer reading that you see a more nuanced take which highlights the flaws in aang's thinking and treatment of katara. katara herself makes it clear that what aang wanted her to do would not have helped her find closure, and she began her healing process without ever forgiving yon rha - which is exactly why i hate people attributing her decision not to kill yon rha to aang when she explicitly stated she did not and would not ever do what he wanted her to!

these are the same people who will also blame zuko for being a "bad influence" on katara, as if the only reason she hunted down her own mother's killer is because zuko convinced her to do it. katara isn't some weeping willow to be bent to the will of zuko and aang; her decisions are her own, not based on the whims of the boys in her life. can we please stop stripping katara of all her agency in the one episode that actually focuses on her trauma and healing?

rant aside, i do wish that katara had talked to sokka after this episode and i imagine there would be some apologising on both sides. sokka - a realistic sokka, because my god was he wildly out of character - would probably check in on her and admit that he was afraid for her safety and well-being. katara would likely apologise for the "you didn't love her the way i did!" remark and i think it would've been nice for them to finally talk about kya and for katara to bring up the conversation she overheard from the runaway about how sokka confessed to seeing her as a surrogate mother.

(imo the impact hearing that would've had on katara was largely downplayed in the show, and is likely part of the reason she reacted to sokka the way she did in the southern raiders, but that's a post for another time.)

the katara-aang conversation would probably have gone the same way that it did in canon, because the issues with their dynamic in tsr are part of the underlying problems with the kat.aang relationship in general. i would've liked to see aang have a little more of a reaction to katara saying she never forgave yon rha (he doesn't seem affected at all in the show), and for that to maybe prompt him to really reflect on what he said.

but ultimately what really has to be tackled here is aang's idealization of katara and his focus on clinging to air nomad values at the expense of those from the other nations - and those problems run too deep to be fixed in a single episode or conversation. the southern raiders would have been a good starting point, but unfortunately the finale never engages with these issues, and so what could've been a great arc ends up going nowhere at all.

[blackbullet99]

Why (as a Kataang shipper and in general) I don’t like Zutara shippers.

(I promise it’s NOT a Pro-Zutara post and it’s NOT an Anti-Kataang post).

LONG POST INCOMING, but if you have the time, please read. 😁

I’ve been thinking. I don’t hate Zutara.

No, I’m not being held hostage, and I know this kinda goes against my rather vitriolic and brutal response to Zutara shippers, but the ship itself is fine and I’m sure 95% of the shippers are decent people.

I really love Zuko and Katara’s friendship, it’s one of the most interesting unique dynamics of the show. It’s annoying when people say, they’re toxic, or they’re barely friends, or it’s a colonizer ship. Zuko and Katara weren’t toxic by the end of the show, they have a great relationship at the end, they were absolutely close friends, ready to lay down their lives for each other. Zuko WAS a colonizer, but he learned this line of thinking was wrong and actively sought to make the world a better place and save The Earth Kingdom.

That being said, Kataang is definitely indisputably the superior “ship”. We see the two start of a close friends from the get-go, they both have a lot of admiration and respect for one another, they grow to love each other dearly despite their flaws, they support each other constantly. And it’s abundantly clear that not only does Aang love Katara, but Katara loves Aang, some may it’s one-sided, but that’s objectively false, it’s painfully obvious they mean the world to each other, we see their bond get stronger, but they have a strong friendship and bond first and foremost and their romantic feelings comfortably exist within.

When I say Zutara shippers are annoying, entitled, toxic idiots, I’m specifically referring to the very vocal minority of people that seem to dominate ZK shipping discussions on Tumblr.

People like…

the-badger-mole who villainizes Aang and hates a fictional 12 year old to a ridiculous degree. Not to mention has so many objectively wrong takes.

longing-for-rain who villainizes Aang, downplaying his trauma, and is unempathetic to his emotions, but will excuses all of Zuko’s anger and outbursts cuz “muh enemies to lovers”.

eponastory who straight up downplays the very serious effects of genocide and the trauma it causes.

sokkastyles who actually thinks an imperialist play reflects the real Katara, (and yes they think the Zutara means “Zutara should’ve been canon, waah”).

zutarawasrobbed who straight up compared Aang to Ozai.

burst-of-iridescent who invalidates Katara trauma from bloodbending cuz she did it in front of Zuko once, but the evil Aang must’ve forced Katara to stop. 🙄

linnoya-writes who straight up infantizes Aang and adulifies Katara, and then that’s the audacity to put their garbage in the Kataang tag.

miss-sweetea-pie who makes mindless assumptions about people who like Aang, as though people ignore Aang’s faults and he never learns because he’s cute. Which is not only untrue, but completely ignores the fact people ignore and romanticize Zuko’s faults because to them he’s hot.

araeph who not only lies about interviewing Aaron Ehasz, but also says borderline racist stuff like this just to pathetically validate their non-canon ship (this is apparently what Sokka would gain from Zutara becoming a couple).

This idiot who acts like Aang forced Katara to comfort him and Katara apparently never treated Aang as an equal. Not to mention weirdly villainizing Zuko and Mai, because Mai didn’t coddle Zuko (like they claim Katara did to Aang) and Zuko became Fire Lord?

This hateful idiot, who is a straight up genocide denier.

And this racist weirdo who straight up writes slave fanfics about Katara being owned by Zuko. Ew.

It’s these types of people who suck. They’re the most delusional entitled moronic idiots who are fake A:TLA fans with no media-literacy who only care about a middle school ship, so they pathetically mischaracterize Aang, Katara, Zuko and Mai, and whine about Bryke not giving into their desires like the little bitches they are. Screw these guys.

That being said the ship itself isn’t bad, it’s just the vocal minority who ruin it for me. I love Zuko and Katara’s friendship, and I wish the great characters in this great series would stop being mischaracterized.

To anyone who reads this, have a nice day.

[zukosdualdao]

you know what puzzles me about atla twitter.. seeing the “katara hates zuko” take bc where? by the end of s3 and post-canon/comics/LOK/etc, they are long term close friends??????

yeah, it’s just people who hate the ship and therefore choose to act either like the reconciliation between them didn’t happen or was meaningless/disingenuous. which, i don’t know if they realize how insulting that is to katara? forgiving zuko was an act of her own agency, because she wanted to. and i don’t see her as someone who would ever really pretend to be friends with someone. for as kind as she is, if she hates you, you’ll fucking know it lmao.

i will say, though these people would probably say these things anyway, it doesn’t help that bryke quite vocally resent the ship. they barely interact in the comics, they don’t interact at all in lok (even in situations where it’s really weird for them to not. i haven’t watched but i’ve heard that katara wasn’t at her own granddaughter’s airbending ceremony when zuko was???? which really makes it seem like they just Could Not have them in the same room.) like, the gaang is supposed to be lifelong friends canonically, but we don’t SEE it, and with zutara in particular it feels intentional.

like i said, the antis definitely would have said these things anyway, but it doesn’t help that bryke has been so obvious about their resentment of zutara being such a popular ship, because it means that the antis can point to them sayinh zutara is unhealthy or whatever and feel validated and reasonable.

[zvtara-was-never-canon]

Your blog is my guilty pleasure lol, it's so validating to read your very matter of fact rebuttals after years of being talked over & down to in the fandom. Being in the fan space & hearing the way people talked about how much more "female gaze coded" Z/tara was made me feel like I was betraying other women by not liking Zuko or Zutara the way "real mature" women did.

Funniest thing is, when i watched the show as a kid as an older sister, someone with talent/skills that nobody else understood, a girl who felt she had to be mature all the time, Kataang instantly became my otp. Katara was living my dream of a fun, cute boy sweeping me off my feet, telling me I was special and going on a magical journey with me-- I had the HUGEST crush on Aang as a little girl. It was so lame growing older and hearing near constantly from the fandom how stupid and unbelievable the idea that Katara actually had feelings for Aang was, and how it's a "male" (aka: bad) fantasy, when honestly Zuko's angsty ass was far from dream boyfriend material in my opinion it made me feel gaslit fjhdidjskj.

Genuine Z/tara fans are fine, I totally get the appeal of the red/blue enemies to lovers sparks fly ship, but the meanest and loudest of your crewmates and the way they act like their tastes are the Correct ones has been just. ridiculous for many years. And why do those types always feel the need to start the conversation by bashing Kataang every single time?? I started with a positive opinion of their ship when I entered the fandom as a teen, even liked a few arts and whatnot as a "what-if," but all the nonsense has left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

So yeah, thanks for this space to complain about the experiences we've had lol. I've had one too many conversations about ATLA & how good it is interrupted with the other person going "well except for the Main Romance, that was shit and Z/tara should have been endgame" not to be Worn Out. Like if in their opinion the show is *perfect* except that One thing.... maybe the problem lies elsewhere?

Yup, that's definitely a pattern I noticed: zutarians are SO many and SO loud, that even though a pretty large part of the fandom disagrees with their takes (regardless of enjoying the canon ships or not) most of them just... didn't talk about it because they didn't want to be harrassed or talked down to or be hit with the "well, we are the majority therefore we're right" argument.

It's part of why I was innitially shocked at how much support this blog got. I thought I just gonna be in my own little bubble of the fandom, but nope, I got sooooo many messages of "FINALLY! Somebody said it!"

And looking back, I should've noticed something was off. There's a reason ATLA's ending was not one of these disasters that basically nukes and kills 90% of the fandom and live in infamy as one of the worst falls from grace ever, How I Met Your Mother style, even though both shows had the fan favorite ship not end together.

It wasn't just that one was well-written and the other wasn't (though that clearly affected the audience and critical reception of these endings, both at the time and through the decades).

HIMYM was a case of "The actual endgame ship was loathed by nearly everyone while the rival pairings were almost universally beloved."

ATLA was a case of "70% of the fandom likes this ship - of these fans, 25% are multishipers that also like the canon ships, 25% only like the ship in fanfic but don't actually want it to be a thing, 25% loves it but can accept it not being canon at point because they acknowledge it'd be rushed, and the 25% are the ones that would burn down Bryke's house if they could, so in reality only a fraction of the fandom didn't accept the Kataang/Maiko endgame, while the overwhelming majority was either happy about it or indifferent to it"

And that's without taking into account that Avatar got new popularity boosts through the years that lead to plenty of people that had Zutara being hyped up for years being disappointed when they realized "Oh, it was popular because of fanon shit, not because it actually would have made sense story-wise" or people who reached that same conclusion after rewatching the show.

I think that's why Zutarians have such a victim complex and want to pretend Bryke and Kataang/Maiko fans are "oppressing" them - they've been dominating the conversation for years, and not only got no results out of it, they're now losing that "leverage" too. They're no longer in an echo-chamber, they need to use actual arguments that make sense if they want their opinion to be almost universal and they just can't do it because their ship was never that good to begin with.

[snogards]

I think it's insane that after the final Agni Kai, Zuko was able to tank a hyper-powered lightning bolt (I mean, tank in the way he was still moving after getting hit, even if it was just groans of pain and slight twitching). He just got healed by Katara for about 5 seconds and was A-OK afterward.

When Aang got struck by lightning, he was in a coma for like what? Almost a month? And you're telling me Zuko gets struck by lightning, and 5 minutes later, is walking around like it never happened? Sorry, I can't believe that.

But Sno, you say, Aang was in his most fragile state. Of course, he was in a month long coma after he basically died. Okay, and I think that Zuko being hit by a lightning bolt 100x more powerful than the one Aang got hit by would also put Zuko in a coma; especially because Katara doesn't have the spirit water to bring him back to life. Unlike Aang, Zuko only gets regular water, not magic water, to heal him.

"But, but Zuko redirected it," you say. Uh no, Zuko wasn't grounded, so that shit still hit him like a damn truck. He redirected some of it, but not all of it. I would probably say that it burnt him from the inside out. It's a miracle that in LOK, that man is still kicking it and being a badass in his early 90s. He should have serious heart issues, if not have died in his 70s at the absolute latest. The man should not be kicking ass in the poles. He should be on bed rest.

In conclusion, Zuko should have been in a coma for like at least a year (realistically he should be dead, but this is a kids show where the main characters aren't allowed to die, so I'll let it slide) and I will stand by that.

If you wanna read how the creators could have worked with comatose Zuko, read under the cut. If not, then I hope you enjoyed my little rant. This post got longer than I thought.

Here's how the creators could have dealt with comatose Zuko and the potential storylines our other favorites could have had at the end of book 3 and a majority of the potential and nonexistent book 4:

Aang is having to deal with the consequences of Ozai being left alive, as I'm sure the Earth Kingdom and the Water Tribes would not like that fact. As well as their newest Fire Lord currently being in a comatose state. They barely trusted Zuko. Are you telling me they're gonna trust The Dragon of the West? (More on this at the end) And maybe Aang would actually get some character development, unlike in season 3.

I don't think Sokka, Suki, and Toph would have storylines that center Zuko all that much, but they would also definitely be mourning the semi-loss of Zuko along with whatever storyline they get. Maybe Sokka and Suki can have conflict in their relationship now that the war is over and they might physically have to go their own ways. Toph can probably wonder where she can go from here. Will she try and reconcile with her parents again? Will she travel with Aang once Zuko wakes up? Will she stay in the Fire Nation and help Zuko sniff out traitors with her seismic sense? Needless to say, the 3 of them have endless opportunities.

Katara is now dealing with the guilt of not only having put Zuko in that position in the first place, but also not being able to fully heal him (even though he would have done that for anyone, not just her). And if you're a Zutara shipper, like myself, even realizing potential feelings and the conflict that comes with that. Or if we still wanna go through with the canon ending of Kataang, have her navigate her feelings about Aang properly and not whatever that original canon ending was. And if we wanna go the "Katara doesn't need a man" route (my personal favorite despite my shipping tendencies), she could try and navigate where she goes from here, like Toph. Obviously, she'll go back to the Southern Water Tribe and help out there, but what comes after they've recovered? She's not the type to stand by and settle when there are other people who need her help. Will she go to the Earth Kingdom and help rebuild there? Go to the Fire Nation and help out there? Become an ambassador of the Southern Water Tribe to help better relations with the other nations? (My personal favorite) The possibilities are endless for her.

But you know who would be affected the most? Iroh. Not only did he (kinda) lose his nephew, who was his second son, but he now has to deal with the diplomatic repercussions of his past as a general of the Fire Nation. Like I said before, the Earth Kingdom and the Water Tribes barely trusted Zuko; no way in hell are they gonna trust the man that laid seige to Ba Sing Se for nearly 2 whole years, regardless if he's the reason the city was freed from Fire Nation control. The pressure Iroh would feel from advisors regarding the fact that his only heir is comatose would increasingly get worse as the months go by. We know that Zuko will wake up, but Iroh and the rest of the cast don't. Iroh is dealing with the fracturing Fire Nation and pressure from the Earth Kingdom and the Water Tribes, all while his son is in a coma. He could see what he was going to have Zuko face by himself with no support around him. What would he do with Ozai? Would be a major question throughout the season.

Of course, in the end, Zuko wakes up because we want a happy ending for them all. But the turmoil we could have gotten in the end would have been *chefs kiss*

[breached-containment-script]

So the scarring discourse is still going.

No, characters keeping scars does not automatically equate to that being torture porn. In this context, fans clearly intend it in a way that says "even if you end up with physical marks, it doesn't diminish you". Or is Aang getting scarred torture porn too? Or do you think things like Mortal Engines movie shrinking the female lead's facial damage to a minimum "spared her of physical trauma"? No, it was afraid of depicting something deemed "ugly" and it's a huge disservice to real people who look like she was described in the book.

The topic was not handled super well in ATLA. Katara's wounds got healed leaving no trace on her, on her psyche nor on how she views Aang which is not just unrealistic, but you can literally feel in the show Katara having to go "no Aang it's ok, I'm fine, you don't have to beat yourself up over it, I'm healed, let it go Aang, it's not your fault," it is too much. It would have been much stronger had the burns left some mark, even a tiny one, because then Aang's reluctance to practice firebending would have made more sense and all characters would have gotten a more solid demonstration that the Avatar can be dangerous too. It would have been a wakeup call to Katara that Aang isn't a completely harmless kid she can always shield and protect. That's character development! This would have been a more powerful moment in the progression of their relationship, especially after they sort it out and Aang learns safe firebending later on, because they'd have a more real problem to overcome rather than just Aang's guilt.

Again, show didn't frame things too cleverly - there's no heightened moment of perhaps Katara being extremely happy that she discovered a part of her lost Southern waterbending heritage (just remember her behaviour with Hama, there's none of that here). The show just removes her wounds, she's confused about the ability, and this leads to Jeong Jeong making a point about how fire is wild and destructive. The whole segment ends with removing the source of the problem (wounds) and is about how evil fire is. Aang ends up being traumatized anyway, he isn't less traumatized because Katara's wounds didn't scar.

The point is - Katara gets nothing character-building out of this event, even though it made her cry and cradle her arms for several minutes on screen. Because of this her burns could be considered torture-porn (slightly). Her discovering healing abilities is not a reward she got exclusively because she suffered the burns, she could have discovered it by accidentally hurting herself, or healing someone else. Imagine if Aang hurt himself by being reckless and Katara discovering she could heal him? What she should have gotten out of specifically being burned by Aang, is a changed view of him. I don't mean her viewing him negatively, but taking a step back and both learning they should be more careful. Who said zutara stans want Katara getting scarred by Aang in order to make Aang a villain in this? He literally cannot be a villain here, he made a big mistake by being careless. It's got nothing to do with zutara. It's not helpful to misinterpret some storytelling tools that have nothing to do with shipping, just to prevent them from creating some later story hooks which could potentially be used in shipping a NOTP. Heck, Katara getting scarred could even be used (with skilled writing) in shipping her with Aang - like zutara fans use Katara being angry at Zuko and expecting him to demonstrate that he wouldn't betray or hurt them again.

And if you have a distaste for two happy friendly characters hurting each other on accident, that's fine, but well I have a scar on my arm from my brother's scratch that happened on accident. These things happen and stories shouldn't be scared of portraying it, especially if later on they show how to make ammends and overcome the problem. I'm not saying "Katara should definitely have kept her scars!!!" I am showing narrative weak points and suggestions how things could have been done differently, what benefits it could have had character-wise and what that might have changed.

[junkopottershima]

An Early 2000's Child's Observation on Zutara Shipping War.

I awoke from my slumber upon discovering the Avatar fanbase, and the absolute shipping war that I never really gave a shit about until now. Zutara is a relatively new ship to me, as is any other ship that isn’t canon, so I’m gonna run through the list of anti-zutara arguments that I’ve found, and list out my takes on them. I’m doing this, because although I see lots of love for Zutara, there’s some aspects about Katara and Zuko’s relationship in the show that makes me question how well their “chemistry” would actually work. For that, I’m genuinely curious and even politely asking “Zutarians” to please step up and respond with their takes on arguments against Zutara. Though, I should mention that there's going to be some anti-zutara takes that I don't agree with. I'll just be getting them off my chest. Welp, here we go now:

"Zutara can't work because it's Oppressor x Oppressed".

I've seen people saying this, and then saying that you can only "truly" agree/disagree with this point if you're an oppressed ethnicity, class, or whatever. Well, I guess as an African American woman, I honestly think the argument that "Zuko and Katara absolutely cannot work out because he's the colonizer and she's the victim" is rather dumb and blatantly ignores the fact that Zuko was trying to change his ways. Like, that argument is so stupid to me, it's almost offensive. We see Zuko change and try to keep changing his perspective on other nations and foreigners, and the step he takes to do that is by standing up to his father on the day of the eclipse and declaring his new mission to find and help Aang and his friends stop the war. Ozai wasted no time trying to do what he wanted since day 1 of Zuko's life, which was to end him. Zuko put his life on the line to change his ways. If we're going by the logic that Zuko can't be healthy for Katara because he's an oppressor...what the fuck was the point of him trying to gain their trust and trying to help Aang take down his father...if he's an oppressor? If we're going off the logic that Katara should not trust Zuko because he (more like his father and father's army) is an oppressor, shouldn't that apply to the rest of the Gaang as well by the fact that each of their nations and cultures were/are threatened by the Fire Nation? Going off of that logic, it becomes easy to say that Zuko should have never gotten a chance to even be friends with Aang, Sokka, Katara, Toph, and Suki just because his family consists of war-mongering assholes, but why would anyone say that when it's shown that Zuko is actively trying to change his ways at that point? Also, if we're go there (the colonizer stuff), it's almost like saying white people should never be dating any nonwhite solely because many whites in positions of power abuse it to subjugate nonwhites. It blatantly ignores the real-life contexts and instances where individual whites mean no harm and are able to get along with other races. It blatantly ignores the instances of whites being able to find genuine love with people from other races, even in hard times like the Civil Rights Era and various wars. We can see that it's fucked up to generalize...so why do we gotta do that with Zuko? Keep in mind, I'm talking about the point where Zuko is officially redeeming himself.

"It would make no sense for Katara and Zuko to end up together at the end--They only had limited time together".

Now this, I definitely agree with. I understand that Zutarians loved the hell out of Zutara and rooted for them to be together at the series finale, but the in-lore time and development Katara had with Aang, and Zuko with Mai is objectively more grounded and overwhelming than all the "evidence" that Zuko would have had a great romance with Katara. Even with Zuko having redeemed a lot about himself in his arc at season 3 and AFTER Katara learns to trust him, there's literally no time for them to develop any romantic feelings or a relationship because Sozin's Comet was just like several days away at that point. Even in the catacombs of Ba Sing Se, Katara's moment with offering to heal Zuko's scar and to really establish a bond was interrupted by Aang and Iroh before she could waste her spirit water on him--THEY HAD NO TIME. Meanwhile, Mai and Zuko were childhood friends, and knew each other for basically their whole lives. Plus, they were dating throughout the series. In practicality, isn't it going to be Mai that would make the most sense as a love interest due to the fact that of all candidates, Mai understands Zuko the most? Isn't it Mai that Zuko has took the time to write a letter for in the prison, smile and laugh for? With Mai, we see Zuko at his most happy. Point is, Mai is objectively a very important love interest to Zuko, so even though they broke up several times before, I don't think Zuko is the type to just throw his tears away and immediately move on. I mean seriously, Jin was more like a rebound fling and Zuko didn't even blink when he dipped back to the Fire Nation. And I don't think I need to pull up the entire show just to list examples of Aang and Katara having each other's backs and developing an unbreakable bond. Zuko and Katara didn't have the time to develop romantic feeling for each other at their best and even if they had an infatuation for one another, wouldn't Zuko's bond and romantic feelings for Mai predictably just bubble to the surface again? I mean Zuko lost no sleep when he basically ditched Jin and went straight back to Mai. No offense to anyone who loves Jin/Zuko, I'm just telling it as it is.

"Zuko does not consistently consider Katara's feelings".

Again, this is true. After returning to the Fire Nation, Zuko isn't shown to be shaken by his betrayal to Katara. He's just not thinking about her during his time back home. But what I definitely want to talk about is the part where he joins the Gaang, and Katara is vocally distrustful of him. This is the aspect of Zuko and Katara's relationship that has always stopped me from actually shipping them together. Katara is vocal, again and again, that she doesn't trust Zuko because of his history with basically being a serious asshole bounty hunter for the avatar, because of him betraying her trust back in Ba Sing Se, and the fact that she personally blamed Zuko for her mother's death due to associating him with Fire Nation scum. Now while Katara is clearly bothered by his presence in the Gaang, Zuko literally didn't care and was on-board to keep on trucking. It's only after it gets too annoying does Zuko now care about Katara's feelings, and what does he lead with? "This is so unfair!". Upon confronting Katara about her feelings, Zuko immediately declaring that Katara was being unfair just reveals that Zuko was thinking more about himself in this moment. That Zuko didn't do anything wrong, that Zuko must not have done anything wrong because Zuko does not even remember what he did to piss off Katara. Katara is the one that has to check him by explaining why she doesn't like him: his betrayal, her perception of his affiliation with the Fire Nation, and PROBABLY the fact that he sent 'sparky sparky boom boom' man after Aang. Right after that, Zuko goes to see Sokka about he and Katara's mother, and while that's very considerate of Zuko...it shows that he's kind of ignorant about properly apologizing for his wrongs. He skipped doing any apology for what happened in Ba Sing Se, and went straight to "Okay, what's the deal with her mom?". It's nice that Zuko gave Katara the option to do a Quentin Tarantino mission on the dude that murked her mom, but the fact that Zuko put Katara's vocal disapproval and Ba Sing Se event kind of on the back burner of his concerns isn't quite a good look. It shows that Zuko, although in redemption, still possessed from listening problems.

Also, when searching for different takes on Zutara, I found a post by a particular user that I don't remember. But basically, in critiquing Zutara the user mentioned Katara threatening Zuko that she would "end his destiny personally" was 'abuse'. I believe this user is called, 'erin-the-brave'. Well in my opinion, that just wasn't an intelligent perspective on Katara's dialogue. In Katara's perspective, Zuko has been chasing her, Sokka, and Aang across the world to capture him, which to her would mean the doom for the world. Zuko taunts Katara about her mother's necklace, using it to try bringing her into giving up Aang. Zuko is randomly living in Ba Sing Se, and right after she has a short bonding moment with him, he immediately choses to help Azula kill Aang. Zuko then sends an assassin after Aang, in which that assassin locks Katara and Toph up in a jail cell as bait. I get that Zuko helped free her dad and Suki from prison, but goddamn, how the fuck else do you expect Katara to react to Zuko's sudden redemption? Even if he IS trying? Katara isn't a fucking mind reader. Like how did you genuinely expect her to react? "Oh you poor thing! Let me welcome you with wide open arms so I can kiss your ass and wipe it with a sample of spirit water"???

"Oh Katara's being abusive to Zuko because she was telling him that she'll end his life if he hurts Aang again, even though Zuko HAS repeatedly tested everybody in the Gaang". Could it serve as an argument that Katara wasn't given much time to learn with, and trust Zuko in order for a romantic relationship to work? I think so. But would I say Katara's reaction to Zuko's second redemption is 'abuse'? No. I think it would be overreacting to even call that verbal abuse, because in Katara's shoes, who wouldn't be wary of Zuko?

"Zuko was pushing Katara to be a murderer in The Southern Raiders, he was bringing out the worst in her".

I actually disagree with this. Zuko merely told Katara that he knows the guy who killed her mother, and that would help her find him. If I recall correctly, he didn't push or pressure her into actually killing him. He merely offered her a journey to find the fucker who took her mother's life. Katara contemplating murder, going on the trip, and even blood bending during the mission was 100% her own choice. The fact that Katara almost instantly chose this journey with Zuko seems to imply that this was something she always wanted to do, but just never got the chance for: confronting her mother's killer. Even after Katara chose not to kill the guy, Zuko didn't hold her choice against her. He doesn't belittle her, nor did he ever pressure her to twist Yon Rha to death like a pretzel. Zuko actually tells Katara that her ability to be better than Yon Rha was a person strength, and Zuko even seems proud of her in that moment. He gave Katara the chance for closure, she took it, she tackled the confrontation in her own way as Zuko let her have her spotlight, and they walked away with him being proud of her.

"Zutara would be better if you just replaced Zuko with Azula in the ship".

This is a joke, right? Because the only way this could get funnier is if you threw in Ozai.

"a fic which does 'ATLA’s plot goes almost exactly as canon, except my favorite ship happens' is not clever or innovative".

....it's fanfiction with endless creativity, writing styles, and brains behind it. Rewriting the show's beginning, midsection, endgame, or all of the above is objectively creative and at least a little innovative. Fanfiction absolutely can be creative and innovative, you don't have to lie just because you don't like a ship, my brother.

"Katara offering to heal Zuko's scar is actually evidence that she does NOT fully understand Zuko"

I've seen this take and I think it's one of the best arguments against Zutara, to be honest. A user named 'Maikingsenseofit' explained it so well, I'm just gonna copy and paste it:

"Upon seeing his scar, her immediate thought is to use spirit water to heal it. While this is an outstanding demonstration of kindness for someone she is not obliged to show it to, let’s remember that right before this Zuko says:

“It's okay. I used to think this scar marked me. The mark of the banished prince, cursed to chase the Avatar forever. But lately... I've realized that I'm free to determine my own destiny, even if I'll never be free of my mark.”

This. Right here. It is so important to understand. Zuko’s scar is so much more than a scar. It represents his trauma from his father, the trials and tribulations he faced to earn Ozai’s approval, and is a further reminder that he is the black sheep of the family both figuratively (a son who could never live up to his title, who could never bend like he was supposed to) and literally (the only member of a pristine royal family with an ugly brand on his face).

But his journey with Uncle Iroh in Ba Sing Se allows him to come to terms this trauma, or moreover this scar. It’s a reminder that we cannot escape our past or try to stifle it. We must embrace it and learn to accept it. It is only then that we are fully liberated from the shackles of our trauma and can fully determine our paths forward.

Katara’s offer to get rid of Zuko’s scar represents a regression of Zuko’s hard earned realization. He had just come to terms with his troubled past and accepts the ephemeral mark on his face. He even wears it with pride. He doesn’t try to hide his past or stifle his trauma, not anymore. It is an integral part of who he is. It is what makes Zuko, Zuko.He vocalizes this to Katara immediately before this. Katara however, fails to understand the significance and the journey behind this mark, largely in part because she wasn’t there to witness it. Her attempt to heal his scar falls flat in several ways, but one main reason is because just because something is healed physically, doesn’t mean it’s healed emotionally. But it’s important to consider something else here: Zuko never explicitly asks Katara or verbalizes a desire to get rid of his scar. Based on the earlier conversation, he’s finally gotten around to embracing it and welcoming the significance behind it. What Katara offers is in stark contrast to what he said. He allows her to touch his scar, but it is evident that she would never heal it. Why?

From Belen Edwards, despite the traumatic memories associated with his scar, Zuko never seems particularly ashamed of it. Throughout season 1, his hairstyle ensures that it's completely exposed, showing his identity to the world. In the second season, Zuko tells Katara that he's beginning to accept that he won't be rid of the scar.

And yet despite hearing the last part, Katara still offers a solution to Zuko to get rid of it.

This is where we see that the so called deep understanding and caring that Zuko and Katara held for each other is beginning to crack. Where is Katara’s deep and profound, soul-ular (get it, like cellular?) understanding of Zuko that no one else, other than Iroh, had of him? It begs us to ask if Iroh was in that room, given the journey he embarked on with his nephew both physically and emotionally, would he have encouraged Katara to get rid of this mark? The answer is obviously no. If there is a deep vulnerability and intimacy that they share with each other, and no one else, it does seem pointless given on both ends neither understands the full depth of the other’s situation. This is exemplified by Zuko immediately forgetting his entire interaction with Katara (but not His interaction with Aang interestingly) afterwards and still failing to understand why Katara was mad at him, even AFTER she explicitly tells him. And this is exemplified by Katara not fully acknowledging and understanding Zuko’s acceptance of his scar and offering a surface level solution that will never address the emotional significance and tribulations that come with it. Nothing against either of the characters by the way, and I need to emphasize that in bold font. I am simply observing their interactions and dispelling these “Word of God”-like claims.

Consider Zuko’s interactions with Mai. When he first sees her after years of banishment she gently his scar and touches in it not in an attempt to get rid of it, but because it is a part of Zuko. And when it comes to kissing Zuko, it means touching his scar, touching him in his entirety- including his physical and emotional marks. There’s a deliberate reason why the storyboard artists included Zuko’s scar in the scene. Because she’s known Zuko her whole life and was there when he first received it. Zuko and his scar are not two separate entities for her. They are one and the same"

End dialogue.

What should be mentioned is that Zutarians do like to say that "Katara is the first person to ever touch his scar"...which to be honest, I just don't believe. I just don't believe that Katara got to touch his scar before Iroh or Mai ever did, because it would insinuate that Iroh and Mai have never caressed the side of Zuko's face to comfort him, and after all those years of being close with them. Then there's the claim that Katara is the only person Zuko opens up to in the Gaang, even though he talked about some of his feelings to Toph, talked about some of his feelings to Sokka, and talked about some of his feelings to Aang. When Zuko snatched Aang and hustled themselves into a cave in the middle of blizzard nowhere, Zuko opens up about his rough childhood to Aang. Yes, Aang wasn't conscious to listen, but Zuko DID talk to him. Perhaps Katara is the first member of the Gaang that Zuko opened up to (the "mom talk" in Ba Sing Se) without the other person being too out-of-conscious to listen, but she's definitely not the only one that Zuko opened up to. She's technically not the first person to give Zuko a chance, but Aang was the one who did it right after he was freed by Zuko (who was disguised as the Blue Spirit).

"Toko = Zutara = Zukka = just about any fan pairing/OT100 involving Zuko".

I don't entirely agree with this. For context, a user by the name of 'atla-recluse' posted this in regard to Zuko shipping:

"Toph, who actually wanted to go on one just to hang out with him. Toph, who tried to speak to him about her personal struggles (as they walked together in search of Aang). The sort of thing an actually compassionate and reflective boy would have at least tried to sympathize with, even if only briefly. Instead, he immediately shuts her down. Seems he didn’t have a second to waste on some dumb little girl, right? This same girl who would later on take moments out of her time to sit down with him and comfort him (The Ember Island Players). Someone’s always there when he wants support. An emotionally volatile 12 - 13 year-old comforting an even more emotionally volatile 16 - 17 year-old. Not a good look. And yet…Toko = Zutara = Zukka = just about any fan pairing/OT100 involving Zuko. And the reasons why they’re shipped always seem to be the same, save one little difference here and there. It’s always about pleasing Zuko and his you-know-what. Pardon the innuendo and my mood."

I agree that Zuko was kind of a jerk to Toph with how he dismissed her, even though he dumped his emotions out and let her give some reassurance. Zuko went on a journey to free Hadoka from prison with Sokka, and Zuko went on a journey to give Katara closure for the fucker that murdered her mother. Although Zuko has streaks of selfishness in his good deeds, it should still be noted that he does care enough about Sokka and Katara to help them in regard to their families. Meanwhile, Zuko factually never even said Toph's name during the entire show's runtime. I'm not saying that Zutara is a perfect ship, but I am saying that it IS different than Toko.

The Final Point to mention: They just ain't into each other".

And although I like checking out Zutara fics and seeing what creative combinations the Zutarans had to bring for over ten years, I still don't truly ship Katara and Zuko because they're just not into each other. Look at the Ember Island play scene that depicted Katara and Zuko being secret lovers in an affair. They literally cringed away from each other. They didn't blush or smile, they CRINGED.

So far, those are my takes on this apparent "war" with the Zutara shipping. So here's where I casually call up hardcore Zutarans to ask a genuine and polite question: what is your response to these arguments against Zutara? Will you still ship them after these arguments? I would really like to know your perspectives, and to see if my mind can change. I don't hate Zutara, though I'm not sure if I ship Zuko and Katara either. Again, that's my actual take, and I would super like to read what Zutarans would like to say about all this.

[ecoterrorist-katara]

i have always wondered what happened behind the scenes between the show and and the comics. in the show, while s3 definitely relegated her to trophy for the main character to win in the end, she still was competent and her own person. the comics though? the writers actively hated her and it always felt like a very personal 'fuck you' from the writers to the (female) katara fans. there is such a huge difference in how they treated her, it still breaks my heart. she deserved so much better.

I think it’s telling that so many Katara fans take her post-ATLA lobotomy arc very personally. So many young girls loved her, looked up to her, saw her as the epitome of Girl Power TM because when ATLA was airing, that was the pinnacle of pop culture feminism. And that’s great, honestly, because she’s an amazing role model.

Let’s not forget that ATLA, despite its all-ages appeal, is a franchise for children. Unlike adult media, children’s media should have morals, and role models, and aspirational narratives. Katara is more than a fictional character: she’s a fictional character carrying the burden of not only representation, but aspiration. We want girls to look up to Katara and relate to her and put themselves in her shoes (and that’s why I never got the “self insert” argument wrt Zutara — if girls relate enough to Katara that they want to be like her, and shipping Zutara is a manifestation of that, how is that a problem?). We want girls to stand up for what’s right, to be brave, to embrace their own power and their agency. Which is what happened in most of the original ATLA, like you said.

and that’s why Katara’s later arc is such a slap in the face, because here’s a fictional character that so many girls looked up to…and now the narrative is going to relegate her to, what, a girl who follows her bf around and never does anything of note? A woman whose biggest contributions to the world happened when she was fourteen? A woman who begins to inexplicably take the backseat, again and again, whether it’s supporting her friends or maintaining world peace or even just making sure some groupies don’t hit on her boyfriend?

To be clear, I don’t give a fuck about the “what about the children!!!!” argument for most media, because most of it is just pearl clutching and purity politics, but children’s media is the one place where actually, you should ask, what message are we sending to the children? And apparently the answer here is “fuck you girls, no matter how accomplished and cool you were, you get married and have children and never do anything of note again. Leading a country? Saving people? Forget about it!”

[olderthannetfic]

The To Gaze Upon a Wicked God situation is more complicated than a straightforward "yes/no" on whether it's a colonizer romance or not imo.

I think the author wants to send an anti colonial message with the book, but it very much wants to have the cake and eat it too. It's written a lot like other "dark romantasy" and the marketing surrounding it went hard on the enemies to lovers thing (the Zutara comparisons especially was still being pushed even in late April). Iirc, the real love interest only appears for less than five scenes?

With that in mind, I don't think it's unreasonable to read the protagonist's rejection of the prince at the end as a set-up to a tortured "I love him but I can't trust him anymore because he's evil and lied to me" while Baihu simped for her in the background and the prince gets redeemed with a heroic act at the end of the second book or something. That was my impression until it was revealed that the childhood friend was the real love interest.

(Maybe I just read too many angsty "you killed my whole clan but I still love you even though I'm not supposed to" cnovels in my youth hahaha)

Imo, it was in really bad taste to do a fake out marketing, but idk if she has control over that. It feels like nobody around her understood how touchy the subject and her inspirations were, because none of these irl decisions wouldn't have happened if they did. I don't think the original anon had the right to comment like they understood everything without reading the book, but I completely get the feeling of "wtf girl you did not just write/say that." Also the writing was... not good.

I hope the "baihu cut" remedies a lot of its issues. Plenty of white authors write shit takes on history. Asian authors shouldn't be burned at the stake when they do the same

--

(Followup to last anon about to gaze upon wicked gods) One thing I forgot is that the author's notes directly mentioned the Japanese occupation and unit 731. I think it's reasonable for readers to make the connection between that and the Roman invasion + human experimentation mentioned in the book. I can't blame them from being grossed out or even outraged when everything irl points to Antony being the intended love interest even though he's the leader of in universe unit 731

I can well believe that it's mostly a skill issue.

People should be free to criticize a book for what's actually in there, but yeah, there's definitely this vibe like nonwhite authors or minority authors or whomever aren't allowed to just... not be very good.

I don't mean they should be free from all criticism, but there's a particular type of extra torches-and-pitchforks criticism that amounts to "Thou shalt be a godlike writer from birth or else!"

[sokkastyles]

Zutara Month Day 9: "You're Married?!"

The council had been at a standstill for what felt like hours. As firm as Zuko stood on the issues of importance, he had ended up making several accommodations for the high-ranking officers and nobles who were slow to accept change, and even slower to accept it from Ozai's traitor son. One general, in particular, had been making snide comments all day about Zuko's interests being compromised, using the phrase, "in bed with the Avatar," in a way that made Katara's skin itch every time she heard it. She couldn't tell if Zuko didn't notice the implications of what the man was saying, or if he was merely trying to keep up the pretense of social norms. He had become almost scarily good at doing such, bowing and smiling in a way that made Katara almost suspect he had been possessed by some interloper from the spirit realm, it was so unlike Zuko, although he had learned from Iroh. But the other members of the council definitely noticed, and the man's comments were increasingly earning titters from several of the Earth Kingdom ambassadors, even though their reasons for disliking Zuko were on opposite ends of the political spectrum. It seemed that no matter who he tried to please, Zuko was making enemies in every corner. Even when Katara tried to turn the conversation back to what we are doing, reminding the officers that this plan was for a new world that would benefit the Fire Nation as much as the Earth Kingdom and Water Tribes, they ignored her.

"The only thing I can't quite figure out," the general who had been making the rude comments all morning said, "is whether our Fire Lord here is the Avatar's pet, or whether the Avatar is his catamite."

That brought an equal amount of scandalized gasps as it had stifled laughter, but both were just as damaging. Katara couldn't take it anymore, and from the look of things, Zuko had finally reached the end of his patience as well, his face red and - was that steam coming out of his nose? Oh, no -

Katara hastily grabbed his hand in an exaggerated gesture, which had the effect of startling Zuko out of his fuming and forced them all to look at her. Good.

"How dare you," she began, "make such crass comments about my husband."

"You're married?!"

That certainly brought gasps from around the room, but no laughter this time. Zuko was standing very still next to her, his eyes wide.

Just go with it, she mouthed to him, squeezing his hand in reassurance in what she hoped looked to the rest of the council like a loving gesture.