#i was there when the johnlock shippers thought their ship would be canon

[dinsbeskar]

shipping ain't that deep guys please

[victimsofyaoipoll]

Round 4

Joan Watson

How were BBC Sherlock shippers so rancid about a WOMAN who wasnt even in the SAME SHOW?????

Martin Freeman of BBC Sherlock insulted Elementary and specifically Lucy Liu in the press. He straight up called Lucy Liu a "dog" in an interview APPARENTLY as a joke, because calling female actors ugly is hilarious. Benedict Cumberbatch was more measured about it, but he still said he was cynical about Elementary because it would lose the "male friendship" dynamic, which of course Johnlock shippers used against Joan Watson fans. Even the lead BBC Sherlock actors got in on the yaoi victimization of Joan Watson... 😔

she wasn't even in the same SHOW as the yaoi I've been convinced she deserves to win the entire poll. I was a Johnlocker but I did watch the first season of Elementary and it was fine????? It was totally okay????? Especially in hindsight given how hard Sherlock season four flopped. Also Lucy Liu is a queen and deserved zero vitriol for *checks notes* playing a character???? A fucking fictional character???????? Oh my god we were all SO mean to this show and we (or at least I) thought it was like The Good Fight™️, like we were defending BBC Sherlock against copyright infringement and straightwashing and Jonny Lee Miller's bizarre scarf, (it wasn't a good scarf I do stand by that) but then Elementary didn't make Holmes and Watson a couple either???? And also it didn't insult its audience constantly etc etc we've all seen the Hbomberguy Sherlock is Garbage video. This is really long sorry hashtag justice for Joan Watson.

Misa Amane

she gets treated in-canon the way fandoms treat female characters that Threaten an m/m ship. it's like, "oh why don't you go sit in the corner and be pretty, misa, while the Men have intelligent conversation and pretend they aren't ten seconds from fucking each other, doesn't that sound nice?" it's infuriating. and MAYBE it's better now but i remember her getting treated the same way in fanfiction too, like we all need to do just as badly by our female secondary characters as fucking tsugumi ohba, but with the added insult of making her be alternately oblivious of the relationship between light and L or actively trying to sabotage it—incompetently, of course, because god forbid misa be allowed dignity or moments of cleverness.

she's one of the first characters I think of when I consider old school fandom misogyny. The annoying bitch and clingy crazy gf allegations were AFTER HER ASS. She's also a lot more intelligent than people gave her credit for, but most seem inclined to take the Very Biased word of our unreliable, narcissistic narrator and his homoerotic arch nemesis and claim that just because she's bubbly and into romance that she's also a complete moron. Which is blatantly untrue. Everyone was afraid of Misa girlbossing too hard. Killing people and devoting yourself to the deranged twink of your dreams even though you know he'll never love you back??? Having a hardcore goth aesthetic and being so Hot even literal Death Gods are into you?? God forbid women do ANYTHING!

Not only is she the victim of yaoi culture, she is the victim of early 2000s misogyny by an author that wanted to introduce a girl character because he knew his male rivals were getting too homoerotic. She is a goth bimbo icon who portrays what I think is one of the few callouts for stan culture and what parasocial relationships can do to both the stan and the idol. The fact that she is a toxic fan of Kira and also hot, funny, sociable is tragic in its own way, which I think the author did try to touch on but was too misogynistic too really get through. Of course, she was reduced to villain status by the fandom and anime alike because she got in the way of the supposed romance in their psychological horror anime.

[ladykailitha]

Look, considering I've only gotten involved in Stranger Things after season four and therefore haven't been around the fans during other new season filming starts, but my brothers/sisters/nb in fandom what the honest fuck is going on right now?

I have been a part of other fandoms when new seasons started filming and the worst I'd seen was BBC Sherlock. And you lot are behaving worst then they did.

And Jesus fuck, that's a fucking low ass bar.

(Again I am ship and let ship, kinktomato, and headcanon free for all)

But this is just what I've seen in my small deliberately secluded corner of the internet so forgive me if I get some things wrong.

Ronance fans have turned on Steddie fans.

Steddie fans are trying to eat each other over who tops and who bottoms between two horny, barely out of their teens, men.

Eddie is confirmed dead.

Dustin is trying to become Eddie.

People want Will dead because Noah Schnapps said some stupid shit regarding genocide.

And Argyle isn't coming back.

I'm going to give you my feelings on these so buckle up lets go:

1- Steddie and Ronance fans have turned on each other. And I know this because I doom scroll through steddie tag. That Ronance fans think Steddie fans are delusional and that they're going down after season five airs and there will be more Ronance fans because they're perfect for each other.

Where to even begin on this? First, never tell a shipper that their ship is never going to be canon because they don't care. Just ask all the Destiel, johnlock, and merarthur fans. Steddie fans are just going to ignore all but the most salient parts of season 5 if Eddie doesn't come back and write AUs for the rest of their lives. You know, like they have since the last scene on the Piggyback faded to black?

Secondly, I don't think I've seen much Ronance without Steddie. Granted I only read Steddie, but it seems that the two ships are tied pretty heavily together. The fruity four comes to mind. So maybe it's that they're getting tired of being a side ship next to a massive one like Steddie. Who knows. But apparently they're bitter.

And I say that because they keep tagging their anti-Steddie posts as Steddie to make sure we see it. Honestly, I just block them and go about my day. But seriously, I've never understood people's need to be shitty like posting hate on the tag for that thing. If you don't like it, fine. Block and move on.

Thirdly. Lastly. Maybe. I don't like Ronance. I saw the charms when I first joined the fandom and it was cute. Until the more I read and I realized that most of the time they don't bring up that Jonathan is even a person let alone Nancy's current boyfriend. That most of the time Steve is written wildly out of character about not caring that they're a couple and that he just wants them to be happy. Like, one Jonathan is severely under used in the fics I've read. Like Will doesn't have an older brother anymore. It's all Steve or Eddie. Which considering how you like your flavor of queer for Eddie or Steve (gay/pan/bisexual) Will talking to them about being gay makes sense, but Jonathan showed us in the last season that he is going to protect Will no matter what. Then blip! in fanfics, he's gone.

And then the whole Steve being okay with Robin not only dating an ex-girlfriend of his, but the ex. The one he thought he was going to marry. The one he dreamed a whole fucking future on. That was still hurt by two fucking years later. You either think very lowly of Steve or you just don't care. Because if you think Robin and Steve are the same person/share the same braincell/ride or die for life, there is no way even if Nancy threw herself at Robin would she even consider it. (I can write a whole ass post just on this by the way, don't get me started.)

2- This is the most recent bullshittery due to a current event about Sub Eddie. This is the worst discourse in any fandom and the worst offenders on either side tend say the most homophobic shit imaginable.

And it's pointless. Whether you think Steve is a top or bottom, whether you think he's dom or a sub. Same with Eddie. Everyone has their own flavor they prefer and they won't always match up with yours.

Personally I write them whatever feels natural for the story. But here's the major crux of the matter. I don't believe a little nerd in Bumfuck, Indiana has any idea what flagging is. I'm sorry. Left pocket, right pocket. Doesn't matter. The likely of him even knowing what BDSM is is pretty slim. I grew up in a small town. There will be some people that know, but that's because they know adults in the scene.

Don't like, don't read. Seriously, guys. Let people enjoy what they want to.

My personal feelings on the matter is that Steve is a bottom/sub because he deserves to be taken care of and Eddie would absolutely want to be that person for Steve, in and out of the bedroom. Again, you do you, beau.

3- The tombstone. Sigh. It was hard to see that. Not just because it confirms he's dead, but because it's been defaced. Most likely like fans have said, "BURN IN HELL" the poor bastard.

Having a tombstone doesn't necessarily preclude Eddie's return. There are several ways he can still comeback Kas! theory not withstanding. But the wank here is people jumping on Steddie shippers and Eddie fans in general pointing and screaming "see!"

Like we didn't have campaigns for Barb and Bob and (Billy). If someone's favorite character has died, don't be dicks when they want them to be resurrected a la Jim Hopper. Because that right there is the main reason people will still hold out hope until the final scene fades to black, okay?

I guess this one is just be nicer to each other, okay?

4- *sob* like holy fuck. Dustin you sweetheart. The long hair, the torn Hellfire t-shirt, the rings. The horns and sticking out his tongue. That poor boy needs several hugs STAT! And of course, people can't leave well enough alone on Facebook, I couldn't tell you how many of the comments were "steddie fans are going to make this all about them, aren't they?" Even though there wasn't a single comment by a Steddie making it about Steve/Eddie. But so many eye rolls. The other half were death threats against Noah Schnapp.

Which brings me to...

5- Noah Schnapp said some really shitty things about Zionism and the attack on Gaza. There is no escaping that. He said them. He double downed on them. And while yes it sucks he said those things, let's not forget he's still young and stupid. He's barely 18/19 years old. I remember being that age and saying stupid fucked up shit, and hoo boy does this make me grateful I was well into adulthood when the internet became a thing (24ish).

There are a lot of reasons to be upset by his comments and I get that. But death threats and calls for his dismissal/boycotts just seems excessive to me.

One, because the story began with a kidnapped little boy and a runaway little girl. If you get rid of one of them especially this close to the end it would fuck up the story. Now if there was more than one season left, sure. But this is literally the end. And for all we know, Will's character may already be doomed by the narrative. So calling for it now isn't go to do anything. Especially since they already had all the scripts written and would have finished filming if it hadn't been for the strikes.

Two, one person on the cast said something stupid and hurtful and you want to boycott the entire show for it? Like, what did David Harbor, Joe Keery, Maya Hawke, Millie Bobby Brown and all the others do to deserve you boycotting their show? If the last season tanks it could seriously hurt their careers, but hey Noah Schnapp said something bad, so fuck them?

I'm going to stop there, because this is another one I can go on and on about, but yeah. Don't hurt other people in your rush to vilify an 18 year old.

6- Eduardo Franco recently said that he didn't get a call so he didn't think he would be back. He was sure that ship had sailed.

Fans are upset, naturally. Argyle was a sweetheart and deserves better than to be cut from the story like that.

But thanks to the incident with David Harbor and Jim Hopper supposedly being dead, a lot of fans are saying he's only saying that because it's a "secret" he's coming back. Which would make sense for Eddie or any of the other character died. Martin Brenner, for example, but not Argyle. There would be no need for subterfuge. Plus, he would already be out in Georgia if he was coming back.

It's sad that he was done dirty this way, but if they split up the filming like they've done before there is still a chance he might get to come back, but as far as the current filming is concerned, yeah Argyle isn't coming back.

***

Just... be kind to each other. Remember that the other people on the end of the URL is an actual person with feelings. That people can like what they like so if they aren't hurting you, don't hurt them, okay?

[nightshadehoney]

FWIW

I wouldn’t say I was big into Sherlock fandom;  I haven’t seen the last season to this day because I lost interest. But there was a time I really enjoyed the show. I liked and shipped Johnlock, but I never thought it would be a canon thing because when the writers said they wouldn’t do that I believed them plus I’m just old school like that. Tbh when they start making jokes in the show about how “people mistake these guys for gay lol” that’s an indication that that’s the furthest the writers are willing to go. 

But TJLC was delusional because they believed there was some elaborate ARG game to unlock the shows super secret ending. They were not delusional for thinking John and Sherlock’s relationship had romantic undertones. I keep seeing this revisionist narrative that this was just tumblr spinning a ship out of nothing and like did these people watch the show? Their relationship was the entire emotional core of the series. John and Sherlock was what the whole show was about. Also: Holmes and Watson being romantically involved has been a subject of speculation outside of shipping culture for decades before BBC Sherlock was even conceived. I’m not actually that old and there are fandom people much older than me, but I feel  unfathomably ancient by the standards of a lot of modern fandom spaces and trust me: I’ve seen a million and one “these two guys stand next to each other” ships: johnlock was unambiguously not that. People shipped them because they were a little gay (like most iterations of the characters before them); it was all pretty simple.  

I’m saying this, not because I really care about any of this still, but because there’s this really annoying trend of people wanting to dunk on cringey shipping types so badly that they will throw all critical thinking skills out the window and just say the stupidest and most divorced from reality things imaginable about canon. Even  about ships that they themselves clearly enjoy (oh, I’m sorry, “understand”--they just post a bunch a meta and gifsets of the characters, but they’re not one of those stupid shippers don’t worry). This all comes off transparent and embarrassing to me, probably because of my aforementioned oldness. Do people think this makes them some sort of internet cool kid? Because the truth is everyone is lame and cringe and all the shit you say and do will be dated and embarrassing in about seven years anyhow. The thing you learn from not being 22 anymore is that any group of people having a good time is going to be “cringe” about 90% of the time. You can let yourself sincerely enjoy things and have fun or you can spend your energy being snide about people who aren’t as irony poisoned as you and be a little bit more miserable than you need to be. 

[ogsherlockholmes]

I think I’ve mentioned on here I’m autistic, so that does mean I can’t understand relationships well, romantic and platonic (of course, not all autistic people are the same, this is true but not everyone). So I’ve never been much of a shipper, not that it’s a bad thing, I’ve never had anything against it, I just struggle to understand it at times. I’ve never said on here but I am a big marvel fan, but I don’t really ship anyone because I just don’t really see any ships? I mean, I do, but I don’t, it’s confusing. (Hope I’m not upsetting any marvel fans, your ships are still valid). I’ve just never participated in that part of fandom.

Anyway, what I’m trying to say is, reading the Sherlock Holmes books COMPLETELY changed my perspective. 

I started reading them with some knowledge about Johnlock, but I kind of thought I wouldn’t see it, like with marvel movies. But it’s so difficult to ignore???? Like, you could tell someone they are an established couple and it extremely believable. If they are not a couple, the story doesn’t make sense. Like, it explains so much, so taking it away disrupts the entire narrative. 

I think this is why people who don’t ship or aren’t even part of the fandom might have some sort of awareness of the Holmes/Watson relationship without actually reading the stories. Even the adaptations (cough cough BBCSherlock) make it abundantly clear and are so in your face about it. I don’t want to talk too much about BBCSherlock because I understand people don’t want to read about it when talking about the ACD canon, but I do want to say that especially in that adaptation practically everything in it only makes sense if it’s referencing Sherlock and John being a couple. 

But then why is it never established? It’s not like it would be going too far from the canon because it literally is the canon.

If we make it a heteronormative relationship and genderswap one of them, they would be a couple. Undoubtedly. Pretend Watson is a woman and everyone would look at the first few days of them living together and Watson feeling slightly intimidated and unsure about Sherlock and think it’s a set up for a romance. Because, really, it is. 

Now, I know there’s debate over what ACD was intending for in the stories. Was he trying to discreetly imply a gay relationship in an extremely homophobic era or is this just how modern day viewers see it? I’m not ACD, so I can’t speak for him, but I do think it’s quite difficult to believe he wrote scenes such as the famous ‘If you had killed Watson, you would not have got out of this room alive’ scene in The Three Garridebs or how in The Three Students Sherlock and Watson suddenly needed to leave with no explanation in 1895, a time known for it’s homophobia without trying to say something. 

I’m not trying to say YES YOU MUST BELIEVE IN JOHNLOCK IT IS CANON YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE but I am saying that it is very difficult to pretend that Sherlock Holmes and John Watson are just friends. Viewing their story through the perspective of ‘they are in love’ not only makes it more enjoyable, but it makes sense of it all. So, I’m not trying to convince you, but I do want to say I feel a lot happier believing in the idea that a detective and an ex army doctor fell in love during the homophobic Victorian era and lived together whilst solving cases then pretending they were just two straight roommates. 

[merlinoutofcontext]

wait so why do you think merlin isn’t queerbaiting? this isn’t meant to be rude im just curious

hey! happy to answer, and i didn’t perceive your question as rude at all btw. here are my thoughts, i’m sorry they’re so long but i also don’t think this is a topic that can be summarized in a few sentences, so...

i don’t really know how else to say that it isn’t queerbaiting by just stating that it isn’t. there is very little evidence in the actual show to even claim that the show was at any point queerbaiting. but to be fair, i also think it’s important to note the term “queerbaiting” doesn’t even have an “official” definition so it can mean very different things to different people. this is the definition that i am working with.

“When an author/director/etc. gives hints, and clever twists to paint a character as possibly being queer, to satisfy queer audiences, but never outright says they are so they can keep their heterosexual audience.”

bbc merlin is a family show. and i don’t mean “family show” in the way that it is usually insinuated - as in it’s supposed to be “clean” and “nice” and “appealing” to a family audience, so therefore any queercoded message is bad and not appropriate. what i mean is that it’s a tv show that was expected to be approachable by families of all ages, at any point throughout the series, so that they can understand what’s happening. whether or not you watched the episode that aired the previous week has absolutely no bearing on the next episode. merlin only started having multi-episode arcs in series 3. and it’s this reason why i think so many ppl are dissatisfied with the show, bc it wasn’t meant to be this deep narrative. they didn't have enough time to write in full fledged storylines. but i digress.

i’m going to be using other tumblr obsessed tv show and ship as examples here. 

i will admit that my original post was sparked by some of the stuff surrounding supernatural that’s happened, but i’m not really going to speak to it much. i do think the internet may have went a bit overboard, and i don’t want to sit here and claim spn was queerbaiting its audience because i actually do think thats kind of a subjective thing. but in my opinion, the fact that they waited until their final season, and what appears to be a characters last episode, to make the ship that has been a large driving force of their remaining audience for the past 12 years, canon, does sit a little weird with me. anyway.

lets use another ship as an example that is literally, unequivocally queerbaiting. i don’t care about your opinion here, this show queerbaited the hell out of its audience for 7 literal years. johnlock.

multiple times throughout the show the relationship between john and sherlock is hinted at through the language of the show, by characters in the show, etc. more often than not, the concept of a relationship between them is framed as a joke. additionally, bbc’s sherlock kept the sexuality of their main character (coincidentally the titular character) ambiguous, while also managing to make fun of their audience of shippers for even thinking that johnlock could be a possibility. 

never once in bbc’s merlin is the concept of arthur and merlin being close to one another, or connected by fate/destiny/magic (which is often seen as being coded for sexuality) as a bad thing. not in the text of the show, not by the creators of the show, not by the actors in the show. in fact, even in the last episode, merlin’s devotion to arthur is only ever framed as a positive:

“Some men are born to plow fields, some live to be great physicians, others to be great kings. Me, I was born to serve you Arthur and I’m proud of that. And I wouldn’t change a thing.”

similarly, sometime after this arthur tells merlin to never change. in my opinion, a distinct aspect of a queerbaiting show is when the show places hints in the language used by the characters to say that a character might a) be queer in some way or b) have a relationship with someone of the same gender as them. but then when the fandom talks about this towards the actors, or the creators of the show, it’s immediately pushed away by creators and seen as a negative thing. or it’s completely ridiculous that the fandom would even think of such at thing.

people will argue that merlin’s devotion to arthur, and their relationship in general is what makes it queerbaiting. that by the sheer existence of some longwinded eye contact, or statements of friendship and devotion to each other that the show was queerbaiting its audience. but the difference is that merlin’s devotion to arthur and subsequently arthur’s devotion to merlin was never framed as a joke for the audience, or as a negative thing. it was written as something we are supposed to celebrate about merlin.

this show was never written with the intention for merlin and arthur to be together. it’s a retelling of arthurian myth with a bit of a twist in it. merlin and arthur are meant to be the main characters, but a romantic relationship was never on the table. 

characters do remark on merlin’s loyalty to arthur, but it’s always in a questioning way, a why is this man so loyal to the king? what is the big reason? and, yeah, the Big Reason is his magic and their shared destiny. and yes it’s a valid interpretation that magic/destiny = sexuality, and merlin = gay (used as an umbrella term here). but that doesn’t mean it’s queerbaiting. it’s just subtext.

and subtext =/= queerbaiting.

[ashilrak]

Thoughts on Different Ways of Shipping

I've been in a many fandoms over the years with varying levels of involvement.

Something that has stuck out to me is the different forms of shipping people do and how people view it completely differently. And I think it comes down to one thing: do you view shipping only in the context of wanting to see something happen in the original work, or do you view it in the context of consuming fan created content and reading about the what-ifs?

Two examples that really showcase the different perspectives are Sherlock and H*rry P*tter.

Sherlock, and I'm aware I'm dating myself a bit here, had Johnlock. Many people who shipped Johnlock, myself included, were genuinely hoping it would become canon in the show. People looked out for scenes in the show and talked about it constantly. It was a whole thing. Sure, there were other ships, but the vast majority of the fandom created content for Johnlock.

H*rry P*tter, on the other hand, has a fair bit of content for pretty much any and every ship you can think of. I'm talking full-length fics for characters whose names are only mentioned and never actually show up (I had a phase in middle school where I went through the HP/Salazar Slytherin tag).

I've shipped both ways, though I tend to fall into the second category more often; I'm a multi-shipper.

The fandom I'm active in right now largely falls into the first category. Most characters are in relationships in canon and these are very popular in fan content. I'm talking a HUGE difference in the amount of content for the canon ships compared to non-canon. Every fandom has more popular ships, but I had never before seen such a huge difference. I don't actively dislike any of these canon ships, but I'm currently mainly writing for a non-canon rare-pair, and it's given me an interesting perspective.

For me, I enjoy multi-shipping because it gives me the opportunity to explore different dynamics and characterizations. Non-canon ships especially are fun because you have to come up with a way for the characters to get together. I'm also someone who looks for plot over ships when I'm reading fic; some of my favorite fics are of random ships I never would have considered because the plot and characterizations and dynamics are incredible.

I just could not understand why people wouldn't want to explore different non-canon pairings -- there are so many incredible interesting characters, why hasn't anyone tried mixing them together? It just wasn't clicking.

I thought it was so weird how unwelcome non-canon ships seemed. On the extreme end, I've seen a popular series get hate in the comments because the fic isn't the popular canon ship and I've seen comments calling out people who don't ship the popular canon ship as encouraging unhealthy relationships (relationships in media vs relationships in real life is an entirely different post).

I was talking about this in a discord, and one of the members brought up a really good point: some people only view shipping through the lens of what they want to see canon and that's how they consume fan created content.

It made me think of a post I saw earlier today talking about watsonian vs doylist explanations of media (in short, watsonian explanations use examples from canon to explain an inconsistency, where a doylist might say something like "the author forgot"), and how two people may look at the same exact thing, answer the same exact question, but never reach any sort of agreement because they're looking at it completely differently.

There is obviously a lot more discussion to be had here, but I like writing out my thoughts. The next questions I have are what drives certain fandoms in these directions? Why are some so focused on ships as they are in canon and others favor a fanon what-if approach?

[sortasirius]

Tbh I’m just scared this is a tjlc situation all over again. I’m hopeful that spn is different but I remember how I felt back in the johnlock days and I just feel like it could happen again. But I’m willing to clown for deancas

So @winchestersingerautorepair answered this here, but I also want to touch on this, not about the Sherlock fandom specifically, but about the difference between this, Supernatural, Destiel that is, and other popular ships.

Listen y’all, I’m a shipper, and I come into most of my ships with the understanding that they will never be canon.  Do I love talking about them?  Hell yes.  Do I love breaking down the subtext?  Hell yes.  But do I operate under the assumption that they’ll come to fruition?  Hell no.

My two biggest examples: Stony and Stucky.  Bruh, I have been Steve/Tony trash since 2012, I have been in the trenches with them for years.  I have read the COMICS to get more gayness from them, I have broken down every scene they’ve ever been in.  I literally ascended when I saw Endgame for the first time (Tony complimenting Steve’s ass??  The entire reunion that read directly out of a fanfic??  Steve’s grief when Tony died???  “That’s my man”??????).  But I NEVER thought that it would actually “happen” and I am fine with that.  That’s what I signed up for when I started shipping them (but also respect Pepper Potts and Peggy Carter or face my wrath).  Like that’s just par for the course.

Stucky is the same thing, I never operated under the delusion that it was going “canon” I just enjoyed their relationship, thought it could be something more, you know?

This is SO different to that.  First of all, love confession.  Full stop.  Second?  Again, the writers are writing Dean/Cas with a PURPOSE, and it’s not to bait people.  Dean and Cas’ arc is too central romantically to be left hanging.  It’s like I keep saying, Dean’s regret, his despair at losing Cas the way he did, his pain at not being able to say it back are going to be central, and for his arc to conclude, he HAS to be able to speak those words to Cas.

So to me, Dean and Cas and their endgame are much different than literally every other ship, just because of the way they’ve been approached, specifically in this last season.

[victimsofyaoipoll]

Round 1

Propaganda Under Cut

Mary Morstan

a controversial one i know, but it’s tumblr. how could i not? anyway shoutout to the writers for CANONICALLY killing her off for the non-canon ship. she was so cool honestly poor girl

Oh god where do I start? Constantly being turned abusive? Killed off (in canon!)? Constantly being removed from fic? I cannot stand the way she's treated, but it's 100% impossible to find Johnlock fic without the "umsympathetic Mary Morstan" angle. It's infuriating!

The fandom insulted Mary at every conceivable turn, refused to acknowledge her narrative importance or impact on the other characters, called for her death repeatedly, and even SENT DEATH THREATS TO HER ACTRESS because she had the AUDACITY to be a morally gray female character who was married to John (they did not care about the moral grayness of the male characters, but she was irredeemable, apparently-presumably because she was a "threat" to the main fandom ship). And though she was definitely sacrificed on a SPECIFIC mlm ship altar, she was still tangentially victimized by OTHER mlm ships too! For example, this fandom was willing to make up a character WHO LITERALLY DID NOT ACTUALLY EXIST to ship with different male character (who was morally...way worse than she ever was), as well as create swathes of content about two men who had maybe one canon interaction in the whole show, before even thinking about the possibility of making content for this character or even just talking about her in a way that wasn't overtly misogynistic and degrading. When Mary died in-story (in what, in my opinion, was an unnecessary, bullshit way), her death was, to this fanbase, not actually about her and was just seen as "proof" that the two male leads would now get together (they didn't). And this STILL continues to this day. People reduce her to "selfish bitch," completely ignoring any of her complexity by claiming that she's incapable of caring about anyone (despite helping to save lives on more than one occasion, as well as dying in an act of sacrifice) and insisting that any of her positive qualities MUST be completely fabricated. I've seen a lot of female characters get mistreated by fandom for a mlm ship's sake, but I don't think I've EVER encountered an example as bad as this one.

Molly Hooper

She's in love with Sherlock, and in fandom she's just considered annoying. Listen, I don't ship them but jesus christ

Honestly I thought her relationship with Sherlock way too abusive (he treated her so badly wth) to turn into a healthy romantic one but the Johnlock shippers were super nasty to the actress -I think she even received dead threats ??? Over playing a fictional character ??? Just because people shipped two dudes ???- and the character deserved better personal development that didn't revolve around her unresolved crush for the main character

Set up as a romantic partner for Sherlock. Often gets shit on for being in the way of Johnlock.

[casebasket]

The Mystrade Treatise

I am long, long out of the Sherlock fandom, but I still have a soft spot for mystrade after ~ 7 odd years (the only thing I really cared about in the show), so when a friend asked about mystrade I hit them with a spontaneous 2000 word block of text. I thought I’d share it as an homage to the still quietly existing community of mystrade shippers out there. Basically, in this essay I will argue for my interpretation of how the BBC TV show Sherlock (2012) establishes an implied relationship between Mycroft, (The Government) and Lestrade (The Force) in the subtext. This analysis will be broken down to two parts: 1) show chronology / their history and 2) their compatibility, which can be further split into 2a) personalities and 2b) external circumstances. 

(The beginning is the only formal(ish) part of - I’m calling it a treatise -, the rest of the piece is written in “I typed it all in messenger app” style. This all came out off the top of my head, so if you think I’m missing something I’m open to the callout)

TL;DR: I’m still mystrade trash and I’m pulling the receipts on mystrade canon

1) Their history - it's clear they know each other and are in communication with each other since the very beginning - and very likely even before - the events of the show. Just a show tidbit, the ending of the pilot episode has Lestrade watch John and Sherlock walk away happily staring into each other's eyes and tell Donovan about their potential as partners, whereas the actual first episode replaces him with Mycroft talking to his assistant Anthea, which shows their character parallels. In one aspect, their role as "aggravated older guardian" is a shared one and one that - rationally, but in fanon - allows them to commiserate with other another. Also, Mycroft kidnaps John in his very first day of him meeting Sherlock, so reasonable to conclude he did the same to Lestrade, so they've clearly met. And, I believe it's canon that Lestrade helped Sherlock with his drug problem, so he's clearly run into Mycroft, whether it's because his brother's OD'd or found with possession or whatever whatever. The possibilities are endless.

We have hints of them knowing each other throughout the show - in season 2 episode 2 the Hound of Baskerville (I am surprised and appalled I know this off by heart instead of more important things), the duo meets Lestrade in a tavern where he's clearly back from holiday and when Sherlock eggs him by basically calling him Mycroft's lackey, he, aggrieved, says "I don't just do what your brother tells me", which is a line I still unfortunately remember over 5 years later, and that is the first precedent set in canon that they clearly communicate. We can interpret this line, given the circumstances, that Mycroft asked him to cut his vacation short to go check up on his brother, and Lestrade, being whipped, was like fine.

This is mere speculation, but in that mini episode, Many Happy Returns, Lestrade is listening to Anderson go on about his conspiracy theories on how Sherlock is still alive, and at the end of it he passes a newspaper article about Sherlock, and he smiles at it like he KNOWS he's still alive somewhere even though he just walked out calling Anderson on his bullshit and dismissing his theories, and I like to interpret that as Mycroft told him Sherlock's still alive. Plus, when Sherlock greets him after his two year absence, the way Lestrade reacts is less “am I seeing a ghost because you’re supposed to be dead” and more “you’re finally back I already know you were alive because my boyfriend Mycroft told me”. 

The first time we see them in frame together (in the mystrade community this is famously known as the 29 frames moment because they only showed up for - 29 frames, like 2 seconds) was in season 3 episode 3, where Sherlock goes missing and everyone looks for him in the hidey holes they know of. Lestrade is seen in Mycroft's office while Mycroft tells him about potential hiding spots. Honestly he did look hella dismissive and rude but you know what? Everyone was stressed. But this shows not only is Lestrade trusted in his secret government offices - and likely this was the secret one because it looked like a cellar - but he trusts Lestrade implicitly. When Sherlock is about to leave on a plane, Lestrade's in a pub watching the TV screen when Moriarty's face is all over it and the very next scene we see Mycroft on the phone with someone getting the news that this was happening. Coincidence? I think NOT - Lestrade called up Mycroft and told him, CANON.

And then there's the Christmas special or whatever it was, about the abominable bride, and yes, this one is set in Sherlock's drug fevered mind, but that only means that, in Sherlock's mind, he sees the two of them as a set (Sherlock ships it confirmed lol). During the whole episode when we see the canon versions of Mycroft and Lestrade they are together as a unit. When John leaves him, Sherlock's mind goes to the most reliable thing in his life to help him, which is his brother (and his brother's boyfriend) and his friend Lestrade to help him, together. Sherlock asks the two of them to help him dig up a body and they share a Look, which is clearly Mycroft's way of asking Lestrade to do the dirty work of actually digging and Lestrade resignedly concedes because there is no other way to analyse the Look, and in the next scene we see Sherlock and Lestrade digging in a grave while Mycroft holds up a lantern because Mycroft doesn't like legwork and Lestrade, clearly his boyfriend in Sherlock's mind, understands this and is willing to accommodate.

And then we have the whole of S4, or as I like to call it, Johnlock hell but mystrade victories!, because in s4e1 when Mary is shot in the aquarium, the first person they look at is each other, indicating they take some level of comfort or seek it out from one another in a room full of other people, also the two of them arrived together so they clearly coordinated, also when the gun was lifted Mycroft looks shocked and steps back a bit while Lestrade moves forward in a “ready to step in” protective gesture, and this all happened in the same frame, and there are gifsets of this happening, and everyone was quietly screaming (Johnlockers in pain, mystrade shippers in "look at them sharing a frame together look at these scraps we're getting"). In the second ep we don't see them together but we do see Mycroft getting hit on by Lady Smallwood and he looks hella uncomfortable about it, while Lestrade is talking with another detective and Sherlock shoots him down telling him she's not the one (because clearly we all know who is the one and Sherlock knows it's his brother).

Oh yeah also jumping back to S3, Mycroft is saying no one can match him and he sees everyone as goldfish but Sherlock is like oh really and was lowkey concerned about him and that's how the mystrade fandom got this whole goldfish thing and it's adorable (special shout out to duchessclovery ‘s masterful fanvid romcom series A Fish Called Greg), and in the wedding ep Sherlock calls Mycroft to attend the wedding but he refuses, and Sherlock says "specter in the feast" to entice him and I like to interpret that as him lowkey jabbing him with a *in*spector in the feast because Lestrade was there looking tired and lonely throughout the whole ep lmaaaaaaaaaaaaao.

Anyway back to S4E2, Mycroft is getting hit on, Lestrade is the most tired we've ever seen him, Sherlock is trying to waive off Lestrade's suitors to save him for his brother. Why is Lestrade so tired? Yes, he's questioning a suspect or something, but also! maybe it's related to his love interest getting hit on, who knows???? And lastly, the last ep of S4, the golden era of mystrade, at the very end of the episode after we've seen Mycroft at his most vulnerable, Sherlock asks Lestrade to "take care of him (Mycroft). he's not as strong as he seems". This was an explicit request by Sherlock, addressing Lestrade correctly for the first time, to take care of his brother, and Lestrade says yes. Of course I will. S4 ended with the promise of the him taking care of Mycroft and honestly I don't care about the entire episode except that part

 2)    A: their personalities: so, Mycroft, as his colleagues know him, is ~ the ice man ~. He's hard to know, even harder and more stubborn and isolated than his brother, and on top of that he's like, contractually obligated under his top secret government job to not be known. That makes him, and this is canon as Sherlock discussed his loneliness with him in S3, even more lonely than his brother, and probably, as much as he likes to think himself more accommodating than his brother and he can definitely pretend for the sake of appearances, more difficult to deal with than Sherlock if he really sets his mind to it. But he's not a complete block of ice - after all, ice can melt - and he has soft spots for his family, esp. his unruly little brother, and by extension (maybe more necessity than real care, but still) the people his brother affiliates with. Because Sherlock is so tricky to deal with, I believe he has a soft spot for people who share that softness for his spiky sibling, and no one cares for Sherlock as he does except for Mrs Hudson, John, and Lestrade. Lestrade's done it for even longer than John, and in the show plays a somewhat paternal figure to Sherlock despite him causing him even more stress sometimes than solving cases for him would relieve. Lestrade is shown to drop everything to help Sherlock when he needs it, and is considered one of his best friends when Moriarty put a sniper on each of Sherlock's closest acquaintances (Lestrade was a target). Lestrade always saw the good in Sherlock despite everything, and believed he could be great. Very few sees the same potential, or shows that level of kindness for - lets be honest here - someone we would want to kick in real life. Lestrade's kindness and patience, enough to deal with Sherlock, surely can be extended to involve Mycroft, as Mycroft's protectiveness extends somewhat to Sherlock's friends.

And this is not a one way street of just Lestrade being kind and accepting. The people Sherlock surrounds himself with appear dull, and have "normal" lives, but secretly either have a florid past (Mrs Hudson) (and her present with the race car and her quick thinking when the flat gets ransacked) and/or crave adventure and danger and intrigue (John) (Molly). Lestrade is the probably the same. He seems aggravated by Sherlock but still like him a whole lot and truly care for him, and you don't go into policing if not for some kind of excitement. He has a failed marriage with his wife who boringly cheated on him with a PE teacher, like how predictable and cliche, and they broke up. Lestrade is loyal, and he wants to fix things, but in the end it doesn't work out. The show doesn't really tell us why, but given what we know of his work and his habits, he probably spends way too much time on the job and in part, neglected his home life. That isn't to say the cheating his wife did can be condoned, nor was it justified, but it does tell us that Lestrade is a workaholic who craves excitement and adventure which explains his attachment to Sherlock. Who else can match that with him in a relationship? Another workaholic who surrounds himself in government intrigue and MI6 bullshit cloak and daggers who also share a soft spot for the most annoying detective consultant, of course!!! For all we know from the show, Mycroft is Lestrade's one constant relationship outside of work. Their common interest is keeping their shared loved ones safe. Beyond that, even though Mycroft feels bored by everyone because "no one is as smart as i, hohoho", Sherlock used to be the same but he found John. We see Lestrade able to hold his own against Sherlock sometimes too, and he is a detective inspector, so as much as Sherlock likes to call him dumb we know that Lestrade's actually pretty smart. If he can hold up his own against Sherlock, he can hold up his own against Mycroft. Mycroft needs someone with the patience to go through all his bullshit, and Lestrade needs someone smart and interesting and protective, because as a protector himself sometimes you forget you need someone to protect you in turn. And that is basically their whole thing - two fierce guardians, trying to protect the world, finding they also need protection, and finding it in each other (end of season 4). Also there's this scene where Lestrade is sitting by his desk with his feet propped up while he eats a donut and says "not my division" which looks exactly like this scene where Mycroft is sitting by his desk with his feet propped up looking smug, or as the mystrade shippers like to call it, "boyfriends picking up each other's behaviours". Essentially, the johnlock relationship sort of parallels the mystrade relationship in that we have a smartass, spiky, secretly vulnerable one paired with a badass, patient, relatively more sunny one. But more mature. And also preferable. The two of them share some kind of relationship that has reached the point of nonverbal understanding, as we can see in their quiet glances towards each other during the few times we see them on screen together, that requires a level of trust and time. 

2)     B: compatibility in external circumstances - this is a short one, it's mostly that they're both workaholics who needs someone to understand their unpredictable work schedules, and also how minimal their social life can get being a) married to work and b) work can be classified and you can't tell anyone about your case files / government coverups. No one could understand the need for secrecy and getting up in the middle of the night for a case/subterfuge than Mycroft and Lestrade, as their career roles work in tangent with each other. And they share (1) chaotic child between the two of them, so they just. get it when one receives a call telling them to fish this loud annoying bitey man child out of the Thames. Their jobs get in the way of establishing close relationships, so who better to relate to than another who live the same kind of life and can understand?

[inevitably-johnlocked]

i finally got my dad to agree with me when i say mary morstan is a villain

hi steph! i’m not sure if this is the right place to go for my kind of submission, i would do an anonymous ask but my ask would be too long so i hope this is the right place to submit! my story isn’t anything fascinating, i’d just like to share it and kind of rant about it because i’m kind of proud of myself, for once.

basically, my dad is a sherl0lly shipper and a mary stanner. i’m a johnlocker, and i have been for a year (my anniversary of discovering johnlock and taking a closer look at sherlock’s sexuality was actually this month, i’ve been watching sherlock for close to two years), so when we have our little debates about sherl0lly and mary, you can probably guess why it bothers me.

admittedly, i can see why someone would ship sherl0lly, (i shipped a little bit of adlock before johnlock) so i can’t say i hate sherl0llians (people can ship whatever they want to ship), but it’s not my ship so naturally i’m going to hold somewhat of a grudge, and as someone who likes reading meta and drowning in subtext, sherl0lly kind of makes me want to throw my hands up in the air and yell “OH MY GOD, CAN’T YOU SEE THAT HE’S GAY?? CAN’T YOU SEE THAT HE OBVIOUSLY HAS NO INTEREST IN HER?? DO YOU EVEN WATCH THE SHOW??” but that would make me a bit of a hypocrite wouldn’t it?

and then there’s the mary conversation. now, i try to be as lighthearted as possible with the “sherlock loves molly and vice versa” argument, but when someone tries to argue that mary was not a villain and that she had a great marriage with john and that she was generally a good person who meant well and oh the classic “you only hate her because you ship johnlock and she married john and your ship wasn’t canon poor you”, i kinda, uh, lose it. which is what happens when my dad argues that mary wasn’t a villain, she had a great marriage with john, etc etc etc

so last week, i finally tried to set things straight. normally we argue about this in person, and i blank on my reasons why and he wins the argument (or so he thinks) but this time i wasn’t blanking, i had my notes open, and i was ready to fight if i had to (sometimes i look back at myself and shake my head “but it’s just a show..”).

here’s parts of my text:

“SHE SHOT THE MAIN CHARACTER. THIS A COMMON STORYTELLING METHOD.”

“she just shot him, completely fine with the fact that john would have to deal with sherlock’s death once again. SHE KNOWS WHAT SHERLOCKS DEATH DID TO JOHN.”

“to ‘not be a villain anymore’ that requires a REDEMPTION ARC and she DID NOT HAVE ONE.”

“the show will never be about john, mary, and sherlock. the show is about sherlock and john. that’s why she’s dead and that’s why it took john less than a year to get over her.”

15 minutes later, he texted me back. and he actually agreed with me. it wasn’t much of a text or an agreement but he did say “mary was a disappointing character.” and i consider that a victory.

a lot of my points were probably off and i probably could’ve gone really deep into subtext and mentioned some of my favorite metas, but some of that would require mentioning johnlock (my dad teases me when i talk about deep subtext and meta too), and my dad is a straight up homophobe and if he knew that shipped the two main male characters he would probably rip down the sherlock poster in my bedroom and never allow me to watch or mention the show again (which would really suck, sherlock’s kind of been a big deal in my life and it helped me cope with my anxiety and suicidal thoughts, it would be so sad for me to let it go).

anyways, uh, that’s the story! a lot of johnlockers have probably gone through the same thing before, my story isn’t anything special, but i felt like sharing it because i honestly never thought my dad would agree with me. like i said, a lot of points were probably off but it was worth my shot and i was kind of proud!

(Submitted by nat)

-------

Hey Lovely!

Oof, it’s always a super interesting to me when people tell me stories about “Mary is a villain” and their friends/family realizing that Yeah, she is. I spent far too much time analyzing her character for personal reasons, and I’m not gonna lie, reading this made me suddenly realize people are using the arguments I use is super humbling LOL <3

Sorry with regards to the homophobia, though :( One baby step at a time, I suppose <3

Thank you so much for sharing your story! <3 And if you ever need to drum up some more arguments, tonnes of meta linked on this post here which goes into why she’s an abuser :P

Cheers, Lovely! <3

[itsclydebitches]

(Blake Anon) What evidence do you have that they didn’t listen to the BB shippers? I can assure you, I’ve seen popular ships get confirmed in canon, but none are as blatant and pandering as BB. As you yourself point out, they aren’t canon yet, but RT themselves have accused people like you of homophobia for not buying. At the very least, they’re no better then the more aggressive BB shipper.

This is a difficult thing to unpack because at the end of the day neither side can 100% prove anything. If RT were to say straight out, “No, we didn’t include BB simply because a large portion of the fanbase wanted it” a lot of people would respond with disbelief. There’d be accusations of them lying. Once someone gets it into their head that a creator did something for such-and-such reasons, there’s no way to disprove that because every bit of evidence to the contrary is waved away with, “They’re just not willing to admit it.” What I can say though is that, again, RT is a major corporation now. We’re long past the days of a six man team with full creative control over their own content. RT is a part of  WarnerMedia. They’ve got hundreds of employees, are balancing numerous publications, hosting major cons and selling a great deal of merch... this is not a tiny, inexperienced team getting bullied into doing something they didn’t want to because the big bad fanbase was mean to them. This is a major conglomerate who has a great deal of power within popular media and - within the bounds of the whole company - full control over their own creative content. RT either a) decided independently that they wanted BB, b) decided to capitalize on the clear popularity of the ship, or c) likely engaged in some combination of the two. But none of that is the fandom’s fault. No angry reddit rants or pleading con goer forces a company worth several millions to spend years investing in a ship that they don’t actively want to be a part of their story, either for creative or representative means. Blaming the BB fandom is just fostering the blame off on queer fans. Again, fans are responsible for their own actions and behavior. They are not responsible for the decisions of a company as massive as Rooster Teeth. 

The real issue here is whether BB is written well and whether the other parts of the fanbase want a queer ship - or this ship - at all. It’s not the fanbase’s fault that they said, “We’d love for this to be canon,” the writers agreed to provide that, and then failed to execute it well. No more than it’s the customer’s fault if they say, “I’d like a hoagie please” and the chef goes, “Sure, I can make you a hoagie” but then fails to create a tasty sandwich. Storytelling is a commodity. Not exactly like any other, but a commodity nonetheless, and it’s not the buyer’s fault if the seller failed to serve up a well-made product. Asking for something does not then require that the fanbase shoulder responsibility for whether that thing turns out well. RT took on that responsibility when they started heavily coding BB as canon. It doesn’t matter why they accepted responsibility - they thought it was honestly the best direction to take the story in, they wanted to capitalize on that popularity, etc. - because at the end of the day they said, “Sure. You can have BB” and that generates expectations that it’ll be written well. Any failure to meet those expectations sits firmly in RT’s lap, not the fans who asked for it thinking it would be, you know, good. In a version of RWBY where BB took more time and was built up in a smoother manner, a lot of fans would be happier, demonstrating that it was never about the shippers asking for BB but rather RT’s ability/inability to write the ship. Or homophobic fans would still be pissed because they don’t want more queer content, also demonstrating that it’s not really about the BB shippers. Or fans would still be disappointed because they prefer Blake/Sun, Blake/Weiss, etc. ... demonstrating again that it’s not about the BB shippers. It’s about everything surrounding them. At the end of the day your claim that it’s “pandering��� is just that: a claim. It’s subjective. One person’s "pandering” is another person’s “stroke of creative genius.” We can’t prove RT is pandering to the fanbase, no more than we can prove that they wanted BB for reasons outside of that popularity. Personally, I think it’s far more likely that there were numerous factors going into this decision because multi-million dollar companies don’t make creative calls about two of their protagonists based solely on what part of the fanbase is screaming loudest. If they did we’d see every major ship from destiel to johnlock becoming canon the moment shippers became vocal enough. Though individual BB fans have acted incredibly inappropriate at times (to put it mildly) there is no evil, unified BB fanbase putting a gun to RT’s head and forcing them to include this. RT decided to go down this road and thus they are responsible for what that journey looks like. 

As for accusations of homophobia, I haven’t personally heard that, but it would be remiss of me not to acknowledge that the concept of “canon” is incredibly complicated - and not for me to give the deciding vote on. Some fans consider the material we’ve gotten to indicate a canon BB and are thrilled with that. Other fans (like me) only consider it to be very obvious coding. Some fans are so happy that BB can have a relationship without needing to kiss or use terms like “I love you.” Other fans (like me) are looking for a more overt indication of love - not necessarily those two actions, but something - in order to stave off accusations of, “They’re just friends.” Different viewers need different things so while I personally may not be satisfied with the state of the relationship, it is indeed a personal opinion. One I feel very strongly about given queer history in media, but still. I am not the sole arbitrator of what is “right” and “wrong” with queer depictions. So though I may not agree with any claims - including from RT themselves - that I have to “buy” the relationship as it stands... I also don’t want to pretend that there’s nothing good in “buying” it either. BB in the last two volumes has brought a lot of fans joy. It’s not (currently) the kind of representation I want or need, but I can’t deny it’s a representation that’s resonating for many others. 

tl;dr: the BB fandom has a lot of problems but they’re not responsible for RT’s decisions or RT’s ability to execute the stuff they decided to write

[fanfic-corner]

My thoughts

Okay, first of all, I promise that I do actually have a Cafe AU post ready to go, but I think I’m gonna post it tomorrow because currently everything is chaos. That being said, I would very much like to talk about what happened in last night’s episode, so this rant will contain spoilers for season 15. Feel free to skip it if you aren’t interested.

I wrote this in the dark in my film lesson, because I had to get it down, so if it doesn’t make too much sense, I apologise. 

Yesterday, you have no idea how stressed I was. I am only on season 12, and I live in the UK, but I was worried about the election, and I was worried that Cas was gonna die. And I knew, that when I woke up in the morning, I would know. In fact, I was expecting to wake up to the bad news.

When I woke up, of seven songs my alarm could have chosen to play, the universe decided on Carry On My Wayward Son.

I decided my best bet to find out the news quickly was on here, and sure enough, the top of my dashboard was a gif set with Cas saying ‘I love you’. I’m sure that you know I ship Destiel, but I wasn’t prepared to be that much of a clown just yet. I assumed it was a ‘I love you... I love all of you’ type thing, or someone had just decided to put those words over the top.

Then, a bit further down: a meme from The Good Place, which revealed that not only was Destiel canon, but Putin was resigning? (Not entirely sure if that is true, I haven’t had chance to fact check yet).

My first thought was not surprise or happiness or shock. My first thought was “I’m gonna have to rewrite my essay.” (I’m doing it on queer baiting and used Supernatural as the main example).

Not too long after, @helplessly-johnlocked very helpfully (thank you!) sent a link to the clip from the episode, and holy shit. I didn’t even react. And - like I expected - Cas is dead. And he is one of my all time favourite characters. But I couldn’t focus on that.

I may have only been in this fandom for a few months, (and I do not envy long time Destiel shippers) but before I even knew what Supernatural was, I knew the word Destiel. We’ll come back to the whole ‘bury the gays’ later, when I’ve actually had time to think about it. But the sheer emotion I felt that a ship that I have adored and read countless stories about had finally been properly mentioned was overwhelming. To be honest, the fact that Cas is dead hasn’t even processed yet, I don’t think. I’m in denial.

But then I had another thought. It’s 2020. Anything could happen. Maybe Cas will come back.

But if we talk about it from a narrative point of view for a second - and note that I haven’t watched the full episode, so this is just based on what I know - this has to be the greatest slow burn love story of all time, reciprocated or not. Ten years. Several deaths. Usually impossible odds. And a musical. 

Every single time he had to choose, Cas chose Dean. Over his own family (multiple times), over God, over his chance to do what he thought was right. They have fought, and they always make up. If Cas was any other character, Dean would have killed him a long time ago. If they didn’t know Cas before he betrayed them at the end of season 6, he would have been dead a long time ago. But Cas is Dean’s family. Whether he returns that love or not.

For Cas to admit his feelings, leaving Dean - a man infamous for not being able to deal with emotions - with absolutely no time to process this information, and then to immediately die makes no sense. And yeah, the supernatural writers love killing off their LGBT characters (RIP Charlie) but this takes it to a whole other level.

Does this mean that I think Cas is definitely going to make a reappearance? No. But is there a small chance? Perhaps.

Think about it this way: if you had asked me a year ago whether I thought a global pandemic was possible, I would have laughed in your face. If you had asked me a few months ago whether I thought I would ever read fan fiction, I would have thought you were insane. If you asked me last week if I thought Destiel would become canon, I would have cried laughing at the idea.

2020 has been a wild year. Let’s hope it has one more surprise in store.

[lizthirose]

Ok but supernatural is like super homophobic. (And so is the actor confessing lol). Liek. He literally gets sent to hell right after confessing. The show literally just said “if you are gay you will go to hell”

Hi there Nonni!

Well. This is an interesting point; one, however, I can’t agree with. See, here’s the thing. I get why people think Supernatural is “super homophobic”. I know many think so, that much becomes clear if you spend enough time on Tumblr, which is by the way one of the reasons I have been absent for so long from here.

Because here is the other thing: I don’t see it that way. I recognize there are certain issues, but having grown up the way I have, I have a different view on things. I don’t negate what many feel Supernatural is and does, and that it is sometimes, oftentimes, problematic for them. It’s just not how I see it.

Around seven years ago I received an anon regarding the Johnlock ship. Here I discussed whether popular media and the audience are ready to see such a canon ship between its two main (male) characters. A lot has happened since then; nevertheless it is still not an easy thing to realize on screen. We may be openminded here on Tumblr, and many others out there have since followed. But our society, and I’m talking about earth’s whole population, is still far from accepting homosexuality, or LGBTQ+ in general, as “normal”. If you want to blame anyone for that - don’t blame the people, or the writers. Blame the teachings especially of church(es) that have always and still condemn anything other than the heteronormative. Back in 2014 I said you don’t change the world overnight, and not even in a decade or two. But when I think back, I believe we have already come a long way, and we’ll soldier on, all of us who know that love is love, and who want everyone live their life the way they feel is best for them.

But back to Supernatural. 

No matter what they do on the show, the cast and crew are well aware that there are probably millions of Destiel shippers in the whole world. We are what, 90-95% of the fandom? Okay, maybe a little less, but we certainly are the majority, that I am sure of.

I think we can also agree that the cast and crew, and mostly the writers, are also aware that this show is ending. 

So there is this one thing that has been going around in my head since a few hours earlier (though being in Europe, it was the middle of the night and I decided to first get some sleep instead of writing something about it):

What if they stopped caring? 

Up until now, when there were still episodes and seasons to come, they had to tread carefully. Supernatural may have a strong and massive fanbase around the world, but ratings are still decided in the US. And viewership there does not only consist of fans/shippers. Up until now they had to consider all viewers, what they could gain and what they could lose because of their writing decisions. It’s a fine line between enthralling someone and putting them off.

If they make Destiel truly canon by the end of the last episode, if they let Dean say it back, if they do even more (I’m not gonna say it out loud, I’m afraid I could jinx it ^^), there may be a small percentage of SPN fans who won’t be happy. Maybe. But most of us, of them, will rejoice, and a part of those who don’t ship Destiel will probably be indifferent to it, or be happy for the rest of us. Furthermore, the general audience and their opinion won’t matter anymore.

There are no more episodes. There is no drop in viewership to be feared. It’s a done deal. Show over. So why not do it? For TWELVE YEARS they have dropped hint after hint after hint. Some call it baiting. I call it regular ship tease you see on so many shows. Chuck knows I had to endure it so often, and some didn’t manage to give closure to shippers (of popular ships that had been teased for years as well, but couldn’t become canon for different reasons during the run of the show). And here I am talking about heterosexual ships. 

So long story short, and to answer your question - a part of me really believes that they will give us closure. Let’s look at it this way: Cas has to sacrifice himself to make Dean realize that he loves him too. And not only realize, but also admit it. He has heard it now. Maybe he suspected it before, but hearing it makes it real. It’s out there. 

Look at how Dean wasn’t even able to accept Sam’s call, despite their dire situation, despite Dean maybe had to know that something was up, that Sam needed help. But Dean couldn’t. One can argue it was because he didn’t know how to tell Sam Cas is gone, but let’s be real: We’ve seen Dean devastated before when he thought Cas was dead, seen him keep Cas’ coat in the Impala and so on. This time, he was incapable of doing anything. Their world is literally on the verge of ending, and all he could do was sit there.

While Cas’ speech and confession had me sobbing, seeing Dean sitting there as if paralyzed completely broke me. He hasn’t just lost his best friend; he has lost the one he loves. I believe a dam has been broken. I don’t know what they will make of it, but seriously -- Cas said the three magic words, something I never expected to hear, so all bets are off now. 

In all honesty though -- for me it will already be enough if they bring Cas back and reunite him with Dean. Everything else is a cherry on top.

I have another thing for you, another perspective: 

You say the writers made him openly gay and then sent him to hell as a result and punishment.

I say: they could have chosen anything as his true happiness. They could have come up with whatever. We all have known for a long time that Cas finding/recognizing his true happiness will send him back to the Empty; he was always on borrowed time, because it was clear that they would make use of that plot device. 

So whatever they had chosen, it was only about Cas’ happiness. Could have been anything. But it isn’t. No, they decided to make Dean his happiness. The things he has learned thanks to Dean; the love he feels. 

The Empty didn’t know what it would be. There was never a condition on what his happiness had to be about. 

But the writers decided that there is only ONE thing that can be Cas’ real, true happiness. They gave us this. They could have found something else and we would be none the wiser, except that maybe we complained that it wasn’t Dean. 

The writers have made a decision. They decided to finally make it canon. 

[space-malex]

Why do so many echo shippers seem to hate malex?

Oh boy. This is a loaded question. I’m going to preface my answer by saying a couple of things first.

1) I don’t think echo shippers by and large hate or dislike malex, but I know there are some that do.

2) I ship echo as well, though I run a primarily malex blog.

3) I get along with most other echo shippers and my answer is meant to respond specifically to those who are unfriendly toward malex and why that might be and I mean no offense toward anyone. This isn’t a catch-all about anyone who simply happens to not ship malex, but those who aggressively dislike it in spite of it not being an overlapping/competing ship to their otp.

Okay, so. It is pretty much a given that in every fandom there will be that ship. You know the one. The most popular ship. It tends to overshadow all the other ships and the characters within that biggest ship tend to overshadow all the other characters, whether we are talking leads or an ensemble cast or what have you. It is very common, almost natural, for the most popular ship to receive backlash from other ships that aren’t quite as large. Call it the underdog effect, if you will. For example, in the Riverdale fandom, Bughead is far and away the most popular ship. Both in the fandom and the media, as well as in the amount of attention the show itself places on them. And you’ll often see people of other competing but less popular ships (even if they overlap one another like jarchie and barchie) get along with one another and kinda not really like bughead a lot. Even among other canon couple shippers like choni or varchie, you see the same kind of thing toward bughead by many of them. Again, this isn’t across the board by any means, it’s just a common thing that happens when you have a large ship getting so much attention. In the Sherlock fandom, johnlock was the most popular, all the other ships got along with each other better, etc. Name most fandoms, and you’ll see this is a pattern.

With RNM, that big ship is malex. It’s hugely popular, it was kinda the breakout/standout thing from the reboot, it gets most of the media attention, because the media tends to follow the pulse of the fandom and report on what is going to get the most clicks and likes, etc. For some who run a primarily echo-focused blog, I think there is frustration at the amount of attention malex gets, particularly because Liz is the lead character and Max is her love interest/2nd billing. Some feel that echo should naturally get more attention because of that. But as it is, that’s just not how shipping and character love works. As a result, Michael and Alex (the two halves of the most popular ship) are also the biggest fan favorites (though I would put Liz right behind them). I think this is the biggest reason why some echo-primary shippers, despite malex being the second main ship alongside theirs and not directly conflicting it, are more friendly toward Michael/Maria or Kyle/Alex. Because while they have their fans, those ships aren’t a giant juggernaut in the fandom the way malex is.

That’s just my take on it. I hope that answered your question anon. Anyone else with thoughts feel free to chime in!

[orionsangel86]

About Shipping

I was thinking this morning about why I so avidly "ship" Destiel. Why it means so much to me and why it's main texting is something I focus on even with the persistent hate and nastiness from people who are against it.

In our culture there have always been shippers. People have been shipping characters since long before I was born and probably will be long after I'm gone. Slash shipping is a huge part of that. People will generally ship anyone if they think the two characters have good enough chemistry.

The thing is, I DON'T ship. I never have. Not in the way that shippers are known for. I certainly don't multiship. That's not to say that those who do ship characters because "they are hot" or "they have chemistry" are wrong. They arent. Ship and let ship and all that. It's just not for me. I can't watch a show and just pick two characters or especially two characters who are supposed to be best friends and force my mind to see them in a romantic or sexual way.

I could never ship Spock/Kirk or Johnlock for instance. Even with the queer coding I won't see it unless I see it as part of a love story playing out in the text. Because queer coding does not make a love story.

This is the big difference that I find when I talk to other destiel "shippers" like myself. I know many people like me who have never been part of "shipping" culture, who've never been in fandom or read fanfiction before Destiel.

Destiel is different. I'm not saying it's better than those other ships, just that it's different. It doesn't work the same way.

Like how when we are young we consume fairy tales until they are ingrained in our subconscious to the extent that generally we can recognise an intended romantic pairing within the first 5 minutes of the story. No one is gonna watch the Princess Bride for the first time and not inherently KNOW that Princess Buttercup and Wesley are meant to be, even when he is "mostly dead".

I didn't "ship" Buffy and Spike. Their story resonated with me in the same frequency as the fairy tales of my youth. It was as clear as can be after a certain point in the show that their story was a romantic one. (Sorry Bangel shippers).

It's easier with het pairings. Most people are conditioned to see romance first between characters of different genders. It's why When Harry Met Sally asked that infuriating and misguided question "can men and women ever JUST be friends?" It's why after watching the first few minutes of the first episode of Big Bang Theory I rolled my eyes and turned to my mum and said "well obviously Leonard's gonna end up with Penny". But in that case I didn't ship them, because whilst I recognised the intended love story, I tend to rebel against it when it's so obvious it's boring. (Big Bang Theory then went on to be the most problematic piece if bullshit still airing on TV INCLUDING Supernatural.)

So I don't ship characters. I DO recognise romantic tropes and love stories being built into a piece of media. Destiel pulled me in not because these two guys are hot, not because the actors have good chemistry, and even because they are heavily queer coded. None of those things alone indicate a love story. Destiel pulled me in because it so clearly WAS a love story.

Baring in mind before Destiel I had never even considered a queer ship. I was stubbornly heteronormative and had no fandom interaction. I know many other Destiel shippers who say the same thing.

When I look at season 4 DeanCas now for instance, I can see the sexual tension clearly. It's painfully obvious once you are tuned in. I remember picking up on it and wondering if Cas was gay, but brushed it off pretty quickly. In seasons 5 and 6 I picked up on the gay jokes, the standard homoerotic flirtations which SPN had already been doing much to my own discomfort with Sam and Dean since season 1. So I ignored it.

6x20 was the first time something changed. The first time it was written with a slight romantic lense. It made me sit up and pay attention and by that point I was convinced that Cas's love for Dean was more than platonic but still my heteronormativity denied me from really considering it.

(As an aside, I recognised Dean's bisexuality quite early on but didn't think about it too much. For me it was just a thing that was unspoken but pretty much fact.)

From season 8 onwards I sat up and paid attention. After watching 8 seasons worth of this show it had chipped away at my heteronormativity until it was practically non existent. I can't remember exactly when I had that lightbulb moment, but it was during season 8 when I said "shit this is actually a love story".

After that, yes I saw it, i bought into it, and i adamantly supported it. It still took me another few months and binge watching through to the end of season 9 before I even thought about getting online. This was in the summer between s9 and s10 and for the first time ever I was watching a queer love story play out on front of me. For the first time in a long time I was watching a love story that wasn't a boring repeat of every other dumb het love story going. I was captivated.

I don't "ship" and I'm not just "another shipper". There is a reason a huge portion of Destiel fandom sees the canon potential and calls out for this to happen in the show. There is a reason why practically every day new people fall down the Destiel rabbit hole and find us online, especially when the majority of those people are like me in that they have never "shipped" or been in fandom before. Even the ones that have, the ones that have interacted with fandom for years and had many other ships and slash ships in their lifetimes have admitted to me that Destiel is different.

Destiel isn't like other ships, because it's not a "ship" as such. It's a canon slow burn love story being played mainly in subtext but with many textual nods and implications. You can't compare it to any other non canon fandom ships of the day. The only ones that come close are canon love stories.

My point to this long rambly post is to stress that those claiming that Destiel is nothing more than a fetish ship, or a fanon based delusion with no canon material to back it up, those who dismiss Destiel as just another fanon slash ship, and claim that we are entitled for daring to wish it to be brought to main text. Those people are wrong. They are wrong because all we, as destiel supporters need to do to see proof of how wrong they are, is to look at ourselves and ask the question WHY do I "ship" it?

You "ship" it because it's there in the show and you are recognising the love story being told. If you don't see it that way, but still ship it, fine. Though I guarantee you are in the minority.

We have been conditioned since children to recognise love stories when presented to us. Destiel is a love story that you are noticing. That is all. That is why it isn't just another slash ship reliant solely on attractive actors, actor chemistry and a touch of homoerotic tension. It's so much more than that, and when people reduce it to that and claim it's no different to Johnlock, to Spirk, to Sterek or one of the many other fanon slash ships out there it makes my blood boil.

I'm not a shipper, I've never been interested in shipping. But I do know a love story when I see one and nothing anyone could say would change my mind about that.