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scoupsahoy · 3 months ago

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i wanna talk about The Ship War going on right now in the 911 fandom (largely on tiktok and twitter) and i'm not a bnf especially in this fandom (and i wouldn't want to be) but i'm kind of hoping people on both sides are willing to read this post anyway because i cannot be the only one completely turned off by it

i finished writing this so i wanna clarify: this is officially aimed at buddie shippers (i am one of you) because i genuinely want to have meaningful discussion and also i'm not exactly defending tommy here. but! i think if bucktommy shippers were interested in reading, there is stuff in here for you too

i have to split this up into sections which is annoying but i won't be able to make any sense without sections so. sorry

1. pre-tommy buddie shipping

so like a lot of people i knew about 911 and buddie entirely through tumblr osmosis, and there was a general attitude of confidence: buddie WILL become canon. if it doesn't... something something. i don't really know the season 6 finale was hard for a lot of you. and after watching, i do really understand why. but.

from an outside perspective, this fandom attitude was nothing like i'd ever really experienced before. i stopped watching supernatural around season 11, several years before gaycas, when confirmed bisexual dean was genuinely outside the realm of possibility.

i was a tjlc believer. i was an episode 4 conspiracist. i have been delusional about gays on my television screen before. so i was really apprehensive at the way buddie fans were moving. not only was buddie GOING to happen, but if it didn't it would be a failure of the network and the showrunners and the actors and it could have been the greatest love story ever told and shipping was not ENOUGH. it had to be canon in order to matter. shipping anything else was fruitless and offensive. this was what i was seeing. and i was like. well there's no way that's going to happen

and then season 7 started airing and there was this reignited hope

and then 7x4 aired.

2. the birth of bucktommy

so i started watching 911 after 7x4 aired. a lot of people did. i'll be honest i did genuinely think that eddie was out and gay and i was like "oh shit is it finally happening??" and then i realized it was some other guy and spend like 4 straight days tumblr deepdiving into it

like i said i was almost exclusively following buddie shippers so my consensus was like. buck and tommy are cute but it's obviously (TO ME) a steppingstone for buddie. after watching the entire show i do still feel that way.

here's the thing though: shipping isn't about what is going to be canon. i'm a marvel fan. my first fandom was fucking icarly, okay, my track record of shipping non-canon couples that actually end up together starts and ends with nbc sitcoms and even then barely. shipping to me is about character analysis and smooshing barbie dolls together with my friends. shipping to me is putting some guy in a blender and another guy performing frankenstein experiments on them

it doesn't matter to me actually that a ship isn't going to end up together, even if i like them. i'm not saying some bucktommy fans don't overstep certain boundaries (that i'll get into) but a FAIR BIT of them know this. a fair bit of them were buddie shippers and a fair bit of them still are. and there's a reason theyre put off

3. social media discourse

the first real piece of morality discourse came from tiktok. i won't namedrop this creator but if you're on tiktok you know who i'm talking about.

this person started the tiktok talking about something that i genuinely do agree with: fans who love tommy but hated all of buck's ex girlfriends should probably perform some self-reflection on the very real misogyny problem in 911 fandom and fandom in general. this i am 1000% behind. a call-in of sorts: hey guys! check yourselves! it is really easy to fall into misogyny especially with gay shipping. though i will argue that buddie shippers could stand to do the same thing (looking at you, people who write fanfic where ana flores is ableist for no reason)

they went on, however, to say that bucktommy shippers Must only like bucktommy because they are a gay ship, And Also Therefore, these people Must Be gay fetishists, as the only reason you would like bucktommy over buddie is because you just want to see men make out with each other. You People don't like gay shipping in the Correct way that i do, you like to gay ship in a nasty fetish way (only slightly exaggerating). you saw that buck and tommy kissed online and you watched the entire show just to watch men make out with each other which is Bad And Wrong.

aside from the fact that this person also literally started watching the show after 7x4 aired (and like i said so did a lot of people. one would think this is a morally neutral thing to do), this struck a nerve with me. this take (which was repeated ad nauseam by everyone in their circle) is just plainly irresponsible.

it is inappropriate to suggest that someone is like. morally reprehensible for *checking my notes* shipping a canon television couple. is tim minear a gay fetishist for writing the bucktommy kiss? is the average viewer a gay fetishist for going "oh i didn't see that coming! they seem like a nice couple"? is my mom a gay fetishist? are you calling my mom a gay fetishist??

this is an argument that i've seen happen in a billion different ways over the past decade and a half of being in fandom spaces by the way. are women allowed to read gay fanfiction? what about gay porn? what if they get off to it? are they allowed to write it themselves? what if they're not straight? what if they're not women? was casey mcquiston fetishizing gay men when they wrote red white and royal blue? is the romance genre allowed to exist with gay men and straight women in it? do you have to check everyone's gender or sexual identity at the login page for ao3 and tumblr dot com to determine if it is morally okay for them to participate in fandom at all?

and then there was the comparisons between bucktommy and buddie fic stat breakdowns: bucktommy's are writing more smut And That's Bad and buddie fans are writing stories with plot And That's Good.

it. is. irresponsible. it is oversimplifying. it is judgmental and above all else it is irrelevant. people could like bucktommy because they think they're hot or because they think theyre interesting or because buck realized he was bisexual or because they think tommy has potential as a character. it is a ship. creating a dichotomy where one ship is the morally good thing to ship and one ship is the morally bad thing to ship is irresponsible and not in the spirit of fandom.

morality and purity conversations in fandom are like. an entirely different can of worms to talk about and this is going to be long enough already. but bucktommy shippers shot back with the same energy:

if you don't like bucktommy then you are homophobic because tommy is gay

i did see quite a bit of this argument because a number of people that id been following did get into bucktommy and i do still follow and like these people

i covered most of my feelings about this type of argument above but to reiterate: it is possible to like different ships without making it a morality competition. it's disingenuous and annoying.

especially that brief stint where people were saying that the bucktommy shipname was a slur against gay men. you can just not like it. you can just not like it and have it end there. it's an ugly shipname but you don't have to make it a moral issue.

especially because then buddie shippers pulled out the trump card:

4. the tommy problem

because these people just watched the entire show in like four weeks (again, neutral statement, i did the same fucking thing) they remember tommy from hen and chimney begins. and. okay

i'm not about to be taken out of context here. i watched bp's video when it came out, i think what was said was wrong, i'm not about to say that being racist was like. cool or excusable 20 years ago. i think there is a discussion to be had here about this though. there's a reason i'm typing this out carefully:

i want to say firstly that there IS a conversation to be had about the social landscape in 2005 and especially pre-obama america for the purposes of a bunch of 20 years olds who were not alive or fully conscious yet. people told casually racist jokes (casual in that they are told casually without intent for violence, not that they are not violent. all racism is violence) and there were fewer social ramifications for those racist jokes in 2005. that does not make them Magically Not Racist. they were. it was not okay. it was, however, Extremely Common. does that make it okay? no.

i'm saying that largely because it seems to ME that tim or whoever wrote that particular episode wrote that joke to paint a picture of where the characters are in the story. chimney is not under bobby. he is not being treated with respect. he is 15 years in the past (from when the episode aired. whatever) it is different. it wasn't supposed to matter who said it

(it did matter and it does matter that it's tommy who said it by the way. because that's like. the universe of the show)

(though my theory - and i'm just being stupid for a sec indulge me it's 3am - is that tim and ryan both LOVE writing in guys named tommy. seriously i've been rewatching glee and when i watched 911 i noticed this too that there are so many characters that we never even meet named tommy. abby's ex for one. my theory is that tim wanted to bring in some guy named tommy for buck's awakening and he realized he already had one. lol.)

SECONDLY. sorry that was longwinded. secondly, i am a person who believes that people are capable of change. 20 years is a long time to grow. even as an adult. again, this does not excuse racism, but it is important anyway.

this is all theoretical but i want you to walk with me: it is possible for a 20-30 year old closeted gay white man with a homophobic captain pre-obama to pick up and not experience consequences for inappropriate comments and casual racism and even be seeking out a parent-like validation from someone who encourages it AND THEN, after 20 years wherein he realizes he's gay, comes out of the closet, i believe it is POSSIBLE for him to unpack his internalized racism, apologize, and grow as a person

obviously these are fictional characters but it is important to my fucking philosophy of life that people are capable of change and having empathy or understanding that in fictional characters is so fucking baseline.

it is important that we as a society can agree that someone's behavior, ideology, and/or biases can change. that like. that just HAS to be possible.

caveat #1 that does not mean that any people of color who are fans of the show have to like tommy or even forgive him (or even like. hen and chim lmao it's kind of clear to me that at least hen doesn't) and i am not going to tell them to

caveat #2 i also understand that there is no explicit acknowledgment of this on screen (i think this is because tim forgot which i find funny but like i said. it still matters that it's tommy regardless of intent) and because of that there technically is nothing To forgive

ALL OF THAT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT.

even if we are assuming that tommy has learned nothing and has not changed at all. the leap from "tommy is/was racist" to "shipping bucktommy or finding tommy interesting Makes You Racist" is heinous to me.

sometimes people like characters who are shitty people. some of you like tony stark. sorry

it's ridiculous to me because there are plenty of other reasons to dislike bucktommy that doesn't like. vilify random people on the internet. he's not even framed as a particularly good boyfriend! we don't even know if they're boyfriends, for one thing!

i've been complaining about buddie shippers for this entire time but i literally am one of you and that's what pisses me off. you threw the first blow in the morality competition and you are bigger - and you KNOW you are bigger because you are proud of the fact - and you are winning.

you are right about a lot of it: tommy isn't a good guy. there is an active racism problem in this fandom. there is a misogyny problem in this fandom. but by and large buddie shippers have been in the game longer and have much larger followings and there is nasty shit i'm seeing which brings me to

5. social media discourse 2 electric boogaloo: twitter edition

twitter is a cesspool in the best of times but i have seen some shit in the past two weeks that makes me never want to write fanfiction for this fandom or even interact with most of the fans ever again. and i'm serious

there is a big buddie fanfic writer who is like. beloved. if you read buddie fanfiction you've read their work for sure. they started writing bucktommy and buddietommy fics around april. and people are being so nasty about them on twitter it is actually fucking embarrassing.

AND LIKE. god. fandom etiquette is so simple.

when i first started reading buddie fanfic the first thing i noticed was how many fics are locked. and i was like "i wonder why that is"

just look at these tweets. i have kept the author's handle here uncensored but please be normal do not bother this person. i'm sure their ao3 comments are hell enough already

what the fuck is your people's problem i'm serious

i'm like actually appalled. this is embarrassing. this isn't even the most embarrassing thing i've seen buddie stans do recently and it is NOT uncommon. it is not small accounts. you guys are the majority. these tweets have hundreds of likes.

i don't give a shit what this person was writing. i actually don't care. their fics are locked. they write for free.

to take someone's fic outside ao3 is considered bad fandom etiquette. to talk about an author where they don't have an account is generally considered bad fandom etiquette. to complain about fanfiction openly is bad fandom etiquette. i don't care if this is y'all's first fandom. in what world are you going to take to twitter and openly complain about someone writing fanfiction for a ship you don't like.

if i were them i would delete all of the buddie fics or never write buddie again i'm so serious. this is so ridiculous.

and this is sort of the nail in the coffin for me, seeing this tweet the other day:

this tweet has over a thousand likes

this is a larger fandom issue as of recent with the use of like. mental health terms as insults but it actually fucking disgusts me!

i looked at mark's twitter. it's pretty clear to me that he's a troll/having fun/provoking people on purpose but on TOP of that his tweets get at most 35 likes. i checked and this tweet got 21 likes. and over a thousand likes calling him schizophrenic. 24 replies doubling down. 25 retweets. 47 quote tweets. 62 bookmarks. over a thousand likes.

and buddie shippers are the good guys

it is ridiculous to me that as a fandom buddie shippers have created a space where it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion about fandom misogyny, racism, of homophobia because everyone who disagrees with you is morally opposed to you, and yet it is this side of the fandom with enough traction and support to openly bully and mock these people that you have decided are morally reprehensible.

6. in conclusion i'm sorry i know no one read this

fandom in general post-covid has become less of a community based in sharing creativity and the love of something (and i know this intimately as a kpop stan lol). online spaces in general have become something i don't recognize or want to participate in. which sucks. i've been here for a long time.

i know there's not really any way for that group of like 5 or so tiktokers that complain about tommy ad nauseam to see this or even take it seriously. i know there's not any way for those people on twitter to magically understand fandom etiquette or just block the people they don't want to see.

everyone would be happier if they just. blocked and moved on. i know i would. and i have! in a lot of cases. there's a reason i blocked out the names on those tweets (note: i blocked mark's twitter handle. the person who screenshotted it so he wouldn't be notified and then called them schizophrenic did not. because they do not care) because it's not about THEM it's about the whole fucking thing.

and a lot of these people want to be mad. it's why they're so hung up on tommy. like i'm sorry if any bucktommy fan is still reading this but GOD TOMMY HAS BEEN ON SCREEN FOR LIKE TEN MINUTES TOTAL IN THE ENTIRE SHOW. HE DOESN'T EVEN MATTER. JUST ADMIT THIS IS ABOUT A SHIP WAR. IT ISN'T ABOUT HOW GOOD OF A PERSON YOU ARE OR ANYONE IS. IT'S JUST A SHIP WAR. and they want to be miserable. they want to sit in their little echochamber of morally upright big name fans and they want to provoke bucktommy fans into saying something shitty and they love it because they don't really fucking care about the show.

you know how i know? because tommy is the least important part of chimney begins. that is in the best 3 episodes of this entire television show and none of y'all have anything to say about it. because you're just as obsessed with tommy as they are.

#hellaciously long sorry but i think. it's actually important. i really really want people to read this because i want feedback seriously #911 abc #911 #911 fox #911 fandom #buddie #bucktommy #evan buck buckely #eddie diaz #tommy kinard

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momhwaissues · 3 months ago

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Losing My Religion

《Chapter one》

Pairing: Deranged Hongjoong x Too-Good-For-This-World Seonghwa

《 Summary 》

In which photography major Hongjoong worships the ground education major Seonghwa walks on, to the point of obsession; all goes well until Hongjoong crosses the point of no return... And Seonghwa wakes up in an unfamiliar bedroom

《 Chapter Warnings 》

kidnapping, mentions of violence, obsessive behavior, religious themes.

《 A/N 》

Proofreading and fixing this chapter took longer than I thought, but alas; this was a thread on Twitter that I decided to cross-post here and on AO3. Comments are always welcomed! Hope this little introduction sets the tone for what's to come.

THIS CHAPTER IS PART OF 18+ CONTENT, MINORS DNI

♱⋆ִ࣪𖤐♱𖤐⋆ִ࣪♱

Hongjoong wouldn't be caught dead admitting being wrong, but right now he had a feeling he may have fucked up. He stared at the man laying on his bed, features peaceful as sleep protected him from reality. He may have fucked up indeed. But Hongjoong knew that everything he did what was necessary, that things escalated quickly, and he needed to fix it somehow. Bringing the other to his apartment would probably buy him some time; not even his friends knew where he lived, let alone those vultures from campus

Seonghwa shifted in his sleep, only to feel a tug on his leg restricting his movements; he furrowed his brows, and a barely audible whine escaped his lips. Hongjoong could only stand there, staring, taking in every single detail of his skin, every movement of his body. Oh, how divine he looked like that.

He had no idea how many hours had passed, legs and back aching from standing still for so long, shivering from the night air. Startled by a particularly cold breeze, he realized how careless he had been, tucking Seonghwa in on his bed with nothing but his clothes and a thin sheet. He must be freezing there without a blanket!

Taking one from the wardrobe behind him, he inched closer to the bed, covering Seonghwa up as delicately as possible. Still leaning forward, towering above the older, he’s caught by surprise by the man starting to wake up.

His mind went a mile per second looking for ways to explain what exactly had happened, to justify the whole situation; it wasn’t his fault if that despicable man decided to invade Seonghwa’s room, his sanctuary. His Star was pure, divine; he held a light of his own, radiating warmth and managing to bring graces to the life of those around him. He wasn't supposed to be tainted by the mundane, corrupted by filthy hands and thoughts.

All Hongjoong could do was stare back as Seonghwa’s eyes started to focus, confusion painting his features at the foreign bed he found himself on. This wasn't his room? Or his date's room? At least he supposed it wasn’t, as the decor didn't match the man he went to the bar with. Has he had too much to drink? Had someone spiked his drink? He couldn't remember much of the date, memories blurring after he had met up with the man. But he could still feel the texture of his clothes on his body, so maybe nothing dangerous had happened.

Hongjoong waited patiently. Not that he had a choice, he could barely breathe standing so close to the man he'd trust his faith and soul to without a second thought. He wasn't worthy of being in his presence, but still there he was, in front of him, on his bed.

Seonghwa was his muse, his faith, his personal belief; for years he had watched him from afar, witnessing his miracles and graces. He was benevolent, never turning his back to those who needed him, even those who didn't know they did. And Hongjoong was his faithful sheep, never straying away, witnessing his every good deed, immortalizing them, praying at his images for his unconditional love.

"I'm so sorry, I didn't realize that the weather had dropped so much, I should have gotten you a blanket earlier" Seonghwa stared at him, still confused but at least less scared than he was before "It's okay, I'm not cold... but where am I?"

He tried to sit back against the headboard, and once again felt a tug on his leg; Had he injured his ankle somehow? "And I apologize, I can't remember much... what happened?"

The slight slurring on his voice made Hongjoong’s heart skip a beat; he looked even softer like this, washing away his worries. Seonghwa was ever calm, ever patient waiting for Hongjoong to answer. "I saw you at the bar a few hours ago, but I had a feeling you weren't safe; that person with you, he wanted to harm you! And I couldn't let it happen.” he felt anger bubbling again inside him at the mere memory of Seonghwa taking the man’s glass, looking completely out of it a while later. “The only place I could bring you safely was my apartment." Hongjoong lowered his head, avoiding his gaze.

His round eyes went wide at Hongjoong’s words, mixed feelings swirling inside his head. He had been fooled, once again. No person he ever got close seemed to care about him or his feelings; they either ghosted him, or got inexplicably wary around him, acting cold and avoidant. It didn't matter how much he offered to others, it never seemed to be good enough.

Tears started slowly streaming down his face, heart aching, and the sight twisted something inside Hongjoong’s own chest that he couldn’t quite name yet. The world didn't deserve Seonghwa. They would only play with his feelings and hurt him, despite his good nature. Only Hongjoong knew how glorious he really was.

Only Hongjoong deserved him.

"Hey, don't cry, it's all good now;” Hongjoong tried to look as reassuring as he could. “you're safe now, and won't ever have to see that bastard again." He was resolute in making sure of it; Seonghwa nodded back at him, drying his tears with the back of his hands. His eyes were still glistening, but he felt calmer, safer.

After that, Hongjoong managed to convince Seonghwa to sleep some more, saying he still looked a little out of it and promising he'd bring him something to eat as soon as he woke up again. Closing the bedroom door, he felt like he could finally breathe; everything worked out so easily in the end.

Grabbing a set of keys and a black face mask, he left the apartment, going down the stairs towards the building's boiling room; He had unfinished business to take care of.

♱⋆ִ࣪𖤐♱𖤐⋆ִ࣪♱

The place always irked him; too loud, humid and dark, as if straight out of a horror movie. But worse than the room, was the man unconscious on the floor. Being completely honest, Hongjoong had no idea how he managed to bring him there. It had happened before, being so enraged that his body acted on its own accord. He probably dragged the man through the service entry at the parking lot, the possibility of getting caught never crossing his mind. The lack of security on the building helped a lot in times like this. And if the guy ended up with a concussion or two, he couldn't care less.

It wasn't the first time he had to teach someone a lesson, to make them repent from trying to taint Seonghwa’s purity, and he knew it wouldn't be the last. More than anything he wished it could be, that others could come to their senses and see Seonghwa as the magnificent being that he was. The absurdity of their blindness instigated too much all at once: the protectiveness, the rage, the jealousy.

And once again the hour passed on a blur. The stranger was tied to a pipe, dangerously unconscious; he sported several bruises and burn marks through his broad back and naked torso. Not even fire would be enough to purify the man from his sinful intentions, but at least for now he had repented from his misstep.

He untied the sinner and pondered what to do next. Exiting through the same route he got in, he left the barely alive body on an alleyway several blocks from the building, a known spot for burglars and other criminals to reign free. Another perk of living on the least privileged side of the city.

With that nuisance taken care of, he took the time to get himself cleaned and to prepare something for Seonghwa to eat. He may not be the best cook, but his mother's special dish was one he was very proud of learning; his Star deserved something worthy of his appetite.

Seonghwa woke up to the rich smell of broth and the sound of the door opening. He still felt dizzy, but considerably less than earlier; he could now recognize the short man in front of him, someone he had seen many times around campus but never got the name of.

"Oh, did I make you wait for too long? I'm sorry, I had to fix some things before coming back. " Hongjoong almost looked wary, but he presumed it was simply worry for his well-being. The food looked delicious, and Seonghwa couldn't remember when was the last time he ate. He couldn't remember much at all. "Don't worry, I just woke up. I'm feeling a lot better too, only hungry." Hongjoong relaxed as Seonghwa seemed less scared than before, almost glad to see him again.

He was waiting for him, and that alone made everything worth it.

After eating, Hongjoong was persistent about him drinking at least the glass of water he brought. He hadn't realized how thirsty he was, throat burning and tongue dry. Now that most of his needs were satiated, Seonghwa felt light and floating, the horrible experience mainly forgotten for now. He could feel Hongjoong’s heavy gaze on him, waiting for something, or maybe to say something.

"I don't think you remember me, we used to go to the same school before college, the same classroom as well" He looked shy and hopeful, although odds were the man in front of him didn't; how could his Star remember him, know about his existence? He was an observer, a sideliner, a nobody.

"I'm sorry, I'm not sure…" and he could feel a little bit of his heart breaking "Kim, right? Your last name, I mean."

The soft light from the table lamp reflected on Seonghwa’s golden skin, and there hasn't been a moment before that had looked more divine than now; Not when alone at the park during sunset, nor when peaceful asleep, illuminated by the full moon. Right now he looked holy, an angel from above so benevolent to the point of remembering his name.

"Yes! It's me!” He could barely contain the pure joy he felt. “I mean, sorry, I'm Hongjoong. Kim Hongjoong. " The way he stuttered may have made him embarrassed, but it was worth the melodious giggle that left Seonghwa’s lips. He once again looked peaceful, almost dozing off again, "Thank you, Kim Hongjoong, for taking care of me;” the movement of his eyelids slowly coming to a halt with each blink. “I'm really grateful you were there. My guardian angel."

As the world faded to black again and reality and dreams blended together, Seonghwa barely acknowledged the painful tug on his ankle as he tried to get more comfortable, or the distant voice whispering back to him "I've always been there my angel.”

Hongjoong couldn’t hold back the urge to finally feel him, a chaste kiss on his forehead.

“And I forever will be.”

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just-orbiting-you · 4 months ago

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I find it interesting how frequently JK says something to/about jimin that could be used against jimin by antis and then jkkrs scramble to explain and try to find a different meaning to what he said. Why does everything he says need a lengthy explanation to clarify he didn't mean this or that? As soon as i saw the trailer i knew antis were going to latch on to the " i miss the members" part and Jimin saying he's a member too. And this is the beginning, Jk is going to say a lot more vague things on the show that could be used against jm. It's a pattern and I'm prepared lol. Reminds me of when he said he wanted to go to special forces in that live and jkkrs had to search up every military department to find minor differences bw his and tae's. I'm not a jkkr but I admit i enjoy watching their interactions, until JK says something like that and the haters are given new material to harass jm then I'm like yeah I can't be on board with this ship. I'm fully expecting a lot more when the episodes are released.

I personally believe you have the target on the wrong back. last week my blog was full of a discussion on whether the members act in ways to get fan attention. posting publicly to social media i think could be open for more debate but largely, i think bts have a solid few of army that isn't broken down into quadrants like fans view it (ot7s vs. solos. vs. shippers, etc.). it is hard to make a conclusive decision, since we don't know them personally, but.

i really don't think jungkook is conniving enough to plan out ways in which he can draw jimin antis out on twitter. i don't believe jungkook trying to plot the downfall of jimin. in my view, jungkook has demonstrated that him and jimin are very close and care for each other very deeply. i don't see him as someone would do such a thing.

point blank. it is the stans. not jungkook.

with all due respect, in this ask you are following the agenda pushed forward by these solos, looking for anyway to make jungkook the enemy. in the name of protecting jimin from these antis, you are doing the same to jungkook.

of course, there are stans that say things that are a lot worse. but throwing the blame on jungkook here, saying he starts the hate is just incorrect.

realistically, a comment about how he misses the members, wishing they could be here to experience this with jikook, (which EVERY SINGLE MEMBER has said in behind the scenes from solo era by the way) should not cause this much of a stir. but tkkrs will find a way to say jungkook wasn't happy while shooting this show, he was forced to do this, and he's not happy with jimin ever. do you see how the stans are projecting this narrative??

i think stan twitter and stan spaces in general have a way of poisoning the fan experience. realistically we should all just be happy that we got this show and that jikook worked hard in preparation for its release. but instead minds get plagued by how jikook's actions will have stan repercussions.

there needs to be a reframing of shipping at large, because i think it does more harm than good as we can see from your ask and anti behavior. i've largely disengaged with trying to prove ships are real and just began to appreciate jikook as a duo. and that's enough for me. yeah i'll make gay jokes and ponder it sometimes, but it isn't worth the inevitable disappointment when you realize they probably can never tell us about their relationship.

Why does everything he says need a lengthy explanation to clarify he didn't mean this or that?

you're calling direct attention to the problems that arise when you focus on the details to try and find the truth. again, i engage with this myself sometimes, i've done it on this blog. but do it enough with the wrong motivations and you drive yourself crazy. that is the space in which stans operate in.

while it's brought up, if anyone has the clip or the timestamp where jungkook said he wanted to go to special forces please let me know. because i looked it up recently and could only find an tkkr edited video where it doesn't even look like jungkook said a word.

i personally believe there's a lot more in jikook that can't be twisted in a way that doesn't look ridiculous than stuff that can be used against them in a tkkr sense. i hope you're able to find enjoyment in the show beyond the stan narratives, because i really think it will be such a comforting show to watch.

#peace and love godspeed #jikook

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randomfoggytiger · 6 months ago

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"I find it tasteless that you don’t really care what KF did to those young people as long as your golden boy comes out looking alright...."

"You’ll defend anything adjacent to D. I see a lot of arguments that do not have anything to back it up, like he probably acted inappropriately while drunk at a party before and so what? I’m taking about MP (who said she was drunk?) being unable to control herself because she needed everyone to know she was with D and touches his dick in her spare time. Disturbingly, that’s what seems to give her self-worth. All that is why she’s not very likable or tolerable. Evidence shows that chiropractic adjustments do more to harm than help, but as long as people feel they work everything is hunky-dory? It alarming that you don’t care about real harm being done to people’s spines because it’s D’s gf’s father providing the service? I can’t respect people who push any of that bull crap."

-@iwantapenguin, 2024

Lie, verb: lied; lying. To make an untrue statement with intent to deceive. To create a false or misleading impression.

Slander, verb: slandered, slandering. To make false and damaging statements about (someone).

Gloves off, then. But next time, tag me properly so I can be notified that you are going to abandon a civil discussion and resort to violence.

Post I'm responding to here (and tangentially, here.)

I shall also give you the curtesy of quoting you directly so that everyone can judge for themselves if my claims are valid, fair, or truthful.

**Note**: I do not begrudge anyone feeling disgusted or grossed out by age gap relationships: the majority of those relationships start from a bad place, continue in a bad place, and are doomed to fail or take both parties down with it. However, the accusations flung against David and Monique without merit-- not those that are or were provably awkward or roughshod -- are a waste of my time, energy, and brain power. Give me proof or give me death.

First: "Whataboutism?" Wherefore art thou, 'Whataboutism'?

Next: "People who post their family’s whole lives on social media for attention or to make money are vultures." Except Monique doesn't get a cut off of management deals, engagement, or even ads. DD and his kids have posted pics of their personal lives, homes, and vacations, as well. They not only let Monique continue to post pics and videos, but also respond to (West) or engage with (David) them. And hi, yes, hello, I also despise family vloggers because they exploit children who can't consent.

Next: "MP has thousands of followers she does not know, so private her account is not." ...What? You can have a private account and still have followers without following them. I know people who operate their dinosaur Facebook accounts like that, young and old generation; and they're most certainly private citizens. I know youngins and oldins who operate their Twitters like that. You probably do, too, or at least know someone who does. I'm hungry for facts, but nothing's been proven with that statement.

Next: "D is so clueless he didn’t know that Gillian was taking BTS pictures on TXF’s set to post on Instagram." David didn't know GA was posting their bts vids online, true; but he was also the one who brought up that she was "always taking pictures and videos" when they were discussing fan engagement; and he and she both laughed over it while he assured Gillian he was okay with "it", regardless.

Their exact dialogue, transcribed:

David: "You know how stupid I am? How innocent and naive I am? You would take a video and I'd go 'oh, cool'."

Gillian: *smiling* "And not realize that I was gonna post it?"

David: *smiling*: "Yeah, and then you'd post it. It'll be like, 'Oh. Well, I should have taken a look at that one.'

Both: *laughing*

Gillian: "Well, you never complained so I thought you were okay with whatever...."

David: "I AM o-- y'know, none of it was terrible; but it was like, I never think to do it."

Also, he clarified in May 2015 (before, as you theorize, Monique could have gotten her hands on his phone or publicly posted about him) that he doesn't trust social media because of the assumptions, misinterpretations, and no-going-back nature of technology: "The 54-year-old actor, who has daughter West, 16, and son Miller, 12, with ex-wife Téa Leoni, admits he only uses Twitter because he was ''prodded to do it.'' The 'Aquarius' star said: ''I'm skeptical of Twitter. I'm prodded to do it, and so I do it. But I feel like there is an opportunity to screw up constantly. You have to be careful. It doesn't go away anymore! I tell my kids the same thing.'" Not because of some high-minded but too-lazy-to-accomplish-her-schemes gold digger posting his private business behind his back.

Next: "A few of his daughter’s friends unfollowed her after the sneaky filming started. The photos are already out there for many people to see curtesy of MP, so I’ll document her ridiculous behavior." Perhaps. I don't discount it. But if David didn't have a problem posthumously with Gillian filming him then, and if he still doesn't have a problem with Monique filming him now-- and I know he doesn't because I've watched him play to the camera in some leaked vids others repost here or there-- it would make sense, logically, why West engaged in the same behavior then and now, on her own and with Monique. Some days he might not want to be on camera for all posterity-- indirectly implying that lightheartedly to Gillian in the above transcript-- hence the leg and feet filming.

Again, we. don't. know. If she's a monster or he's a monster, I cast them off into the abyss. But we, the public, have no actual, factual information of... anything, really, other than rumors, speculations, or opinions. What we do know is: he was fine with Gillian posting, even after being made aware of it. He's fine with West posting his apartment and their family activities. He was fine posting a pic of Miller to his own account. He seemed fine with West's boyfriend posting an intimate father-daughter hug for Bucky Dent's premiere. And he seems fine with Monique posting since then.

For every mention you have of West and her friends not engaging with Monique years ago, she most certainly does now. And you can't hide that fact behind West using her father as a leg up in the industry without bringing Tea's contacts from both entertainment and finance into the discussion. Tea who, by the way, has been more than cordial and civil in each outing and sighting with David, saying they're friends, saying they still love each other, telling him he's a good influence and father to West, etc. Even after the timeline you allege he started dating Monique. Even after the other dating timeline you allege she gave fans in a conversation somewhere. Even after he flew in and out of New York before the pandemic. Even after spending the pandemic locked down with his son.

Next: "The photos are already out there for many people to see curtesy of MP, so I’ll document her ridiculous behavior. I’m not his gf, I’ve made no vows to him. He likes to make money on voicing his feelings and opinions. While I’ll continue to comment on a public figure." 'Ridiculous behavior', you say, about an adult posting milestones or cute pictures and videos to her Instagram. Interesting. If she were trying to launch her own career-- which you and your responders have said before she would, a couple times, without anything coming to fruition (the archives don't lie)-- your argument would have a leg to stand on. But then again, David and Tea talked about explicit sex (and their sex lives) back in the day; rolled atop each other on a crowded, public beach; sold David's bottom-as-brush paintings for charity; and promoted her charitable causes during their various movie interviews... so, I would still retract half a point.

Next: "She should have the loyalty, respect, love and care to not use him for attention." Would you say he used her for attention during his performance the night before Bucky Dent, pointing at her and waiting for her response during one of his songs? Did he use her for attention during his recent stories about their private lives on recent podcasts? Did he use his children for attention on his podcasts? Did he use Tea for attention during their collaborations? Did she use him for attention to promote her friend's brand during their recent family vacation? If we broaden this out to its conclusion: do the Obamas use their children or each other for attention, setting aside their 'loyalty, respect, love, and care' for each other in order to do so? Or do they just say or post what they want within personalized limitations that are narrowed or broadened as relationships shift and grow?

Next: "He’ll hold her hand or leg in public now that his mother isn’t here to witness them. How romantic." David's stated in the past his mother didn't listen to what the talk shows said or read what the papers wrote about him. If you want to be really technical, he's also said she had dementia or Alzheimer's (can't recall which specifically) for a few years now; and that it was so advanced by the time of her death that she didn't recall one day from the next. Would she have disapproved? You bet your bottom dollar she probably did. She also would have disapproved of him being as explicit and cussy as he was for decades; and she would more than likely have disapproved of him getting tattoos; and she would have most definitely disapproved of all his youthful, adult, and older adult sexual shenanigans, innocent or not. That didn't stop him before.

To be even more technical, most of the pap shots of DD and MP are taken at Soho House and Erewhon Market, two celebrity hotspots that managers, publicists, and paparazzi use to prearrange meetups in order to get the celebrity's name out there in advance of the next promotional tour, as well as merge their interests to get a split of the photograph proceeds. (I covered the topic here.) All David has to do is show up--ultimately, they're business strolls. He's annoyed (even angry) at having to do it; but he still holds up his end of the celebrity bargain 'cuz that's Hollywood, baby. And he's always brought Monique along with him.

Next: "He pushed her hand away when people were looking before...." Continuing on my train of thought. The other times he and Monique were caught unawares by paparazzi (his band at the airport, Vancouver, the beach, etc.) were during the Revival hype. Monique didn't try to snuggle up, grab his hand, or get too close most incidences. The hand move you're referring to was, I believe, after a live show when he was super-duper keyed up, wanted to leave, and was followed (semi-circled?) by fans. Yeah, it could be a sign he wanted physical distance from her... except he acted out the exact same routine with his kids whenever they got papped or surrounded by a crowd: walking ahead of them, retreating into himself, not touching anyone unless they were feeling insecure or scared, looking serious or annoyed unless talked to or joked with. It was a clear pattern to me, so I guess I'm surprised you didn't notice it, too.

Next: "...and made her hold his arm like he was her gramps." I have an older couple-- 70s-- who have been married forever and still hold each other's arm like that, preferring to keep any romantic overtures tightly under wraps. I knew other older couples who would think that's rubbish or insanity. I know other young couples who are physically affectionate in public; and others who, again, would prefer to keep contact to a minimum. I've seen, read, or heard of every shade in-between; and I know you have, too. Maybe David likes how it makes him feel. Maybe Monique likes reenacting Austenian period dramas. Of all the accusations brought against them, this amuses me the most.

To be even more technical, I can pull up preeeeetty much all the paparazzi pics between he and MP in chronological (not release, they were reshuffled) order to prove that he initiated more contact with MP than the other way around, stemming as far back as 2017.

Next: "They didn’t have to have contact with Tim once he started dating their mother but they always did." First of all, I challenge you to prove that assertion. Second of all... why is that the focus of your question? Why did or didn't they have to? That's an assumption equal to the kids having no contact at all with MP for years. We don't know.

Tim said on a podcast that he and Tea shared a trailer to catch a nap early on in their relationship. Their coworkers suspected they were dating the entire first season, long before they announced it publicly (five-six months later around Christmas.) Tea and David previously married each other within eight weeks. Tea moves fast. We don't know how fast; but we do know one source alleged she and Tim were an item since summer (July) of 2014. David then filed for divorce in August, citing an "irretrievable breakdown of the marriage" (meaning Tea was ready to move on, that's her prerogative); and she and Tim spent Season 1 fake kissing but looked like they were "really kissing", according to an onset actor friend. All this to say, pretty sure Madam Secretary's pilot filmed in May; and if she and Tim were "on" by July, etc., it stands to reason she moves at the same pace as she did with her first husband; then David; then (presumably) Tim. Meaning, we don't know how much contact the kids had with Tim; but it was probably, likely, a lot. Monique, meanwhile, lived primarily in California; and she and the kids had separate worlds, we assume, until West graduated and started forming her own relationship behind the scenes. Miller seems to have followed suit; and the rest is history. All of those are provable facts because we have what David and Tea have said about and done with each other; what Tea and Tim have said about each other; what observers have confirmed or denied on all angles of the situation; and what the kids were doing then and doing now.

Next: "She smoked, loved red meat, wasn’t a gym rat etc. It’s just a little thing, not marriage ending but people fair better the more similar their habits." Your previous implication in the comments of our last chat here was that they wouldn't have lasted long because David couldn't mold Tea into the woman HE wanted. You assume he cheated, cheated, cheated until rehab, then cheated, cheated, cheated some more until their second and final breakup (despite the fact sources from her side said the final dissolution was due to her love not being the same as pre-rehab, not that he'd kept acting reprehensibly), then hooked up with a 19-year-old mercenary social climber that, somehow, waited two years before accidentally leaking where she and her boyfriend would be working out (in a reply to the owners of the Instagram gym they would be going to... which means someone had to have been stalking who she was talking to in order to find that information, hm) so he could no longer hide her away like a dirty secret. Those aspects of Tea were brought up to subtly back your larger point, which was to lay the blame at David's feet one way or another. If he deserves it, lay it there. But prove that he deserves it.

Next: "MP is at his beck and call, she will also twin him without hesitation." MP at his beck and call? ...Or maybe she's down to fly free to any cool new location, down to fly wherever he is because he's her boyfriend and she loves him, down to enjoy a financial freedom we mortals could only dream of having, etc., etc.? Assumptions on all sides; and, again, no proof.

Next: "They didn’t follow each other before because they didn’t interact in real life either. She had to leave when they were visiting up until 2022 and 2023. They didn’t have to have contact with Tim once he started dating their mother but they always did." Never denied that was the case. Still don't buy there was some grand conspiracy happening behind the scenes to keep the kids away from the disgusting age gap relationship and the dastardly, evil machinations MP was concocting on her evil Instagram account. I need hard proof before I believe assumptions.

Next: "Regarding Téa you are assuming she must be ok with MP because she’s good with D but I’m pointing out that she admitted she still wanted to strangle him sometimes for the things he does on a national television show" I never said Tea was okay with MP, just that she's more than okay with David despite his relationship.

Also, Tea's throttle comment disproves your angle, actually. Might as well throw it in here because that's a point you've not let go.

Tea's comment with full context:

In fact, the exes are on very amicable terms and talk almost every day, they even shared a rental home with all of their family over the Christmas period. But this doesn't mean the pair's current relationship is always smooth sailing. “On occasion, I want to throttle him,” she said of her former hubby. "But in any real relationship with someone you love, that’s true.”

Tea's quote the previous year, fresh from divorce:

"Listen, David gave me the two greatest gifts on the planet; I don't know how I could ever hate him. We've always loved each other, and we adore these kids," the 'Jurassic Park 3' actress said of her children, Kyd Miller, 12, and Madelaine West, 15. "I'm not playing stupid-I understand feelings can get hurt and things can get icky. We've had our moments like that. But these kids are too important, and he feels the same way. I know it," she continued. "He's a good guy."

Next: "Of course MP showed everyone the second she first hung out with both of them to no one’s surprise." This doesn't hold up in court, either, because West and her boyfriend gushed over MP all summer. West would have complained to her mom or dad if she felt uncomfortable with the video posted; and neither parent have would let that happen again. Furthermore, guess who was relaxed, smiling, and engaging with the camera, other than Monique? West. Guess who hugged up on Monique while her dad and Ben Stiller celebrated Bucky Dent's release with a performance? West. Guess who gave Monique a happy Happy Birthday message? West. Guess who attended a Taylor Swift concert with Monique? West. Guess who went with her to London to, as you say, "babysit" Monique? West. Guess who celebrated her birthday in New York with, you assume, Monique? West. Guess who'll be elsewhere with Monique in future? Probably West.

Next: "What are you taking about fixing things because of what’s written about her? She made fun of people for saying her friend was her boyfriend because they were disgusted by thought of David dating her and didn’t want to believe she was for real. So that was proof she was reading a few tumblrs when her name was first revealed." Logical inference but incomplete reasoning, I believe. David knows exactly what was said about his House of D movie; David knows what everyone was saying and has said about him during his rehab, reunion, and divorce; Tea knows what might be said and forbids Tim to talk about her in interviews; I know and you know what is being said about each other, which is why we're here (but at least I'll respond to you properly with a reblog or @); and Monique knows what people say about her because she possibly Googled herself or, I don't know, took a look at the vitriol in her comments section-- a few of which you've reposted in the past so even I got to see them. Lovely times. Again, no definitive proof.

Next: "How am I supposed to know if she’s read my blog? But what a dedicated reader you are." Thank you, I'll take that as a compliment instead of a barb. I began poking around your archives right around the time you made a post trying to debunk my David Duchovny and Gillian Anderson seasonal palette posts. (If you're trying to put me off, consider that you brought up our difference of opinion once again in the midst of an entirely separate talk about Monique and David's relationship.) You didn't have the curtesy to @ me then (and now); but I started scrolling while waiting for you to respond, came across a host of information, and decided to come back later to iron out some details. Needless to say, you can't passive-aggressively point a finger at me when your posts are supposed to be public to begin with, not even coyly private like you claim Monique's Instagram account is. One pointing forward, three pointing back, after all.

While we're on the topic, I also caught a lie you told during our previous conversation. Back in 2019? you put a cryptic message saying you didn't believe David and West were close because of Monique; and when West posted the next day for Father's Day, you followed up with another cryptic post hinting MP was reading her Tumblr detractors; and when another user called you out for that, you denied, denied, denied that was your intent; and then you confirmed that that had been your intent to me (in essence, restating that you believe MP keeps up with her anti Tumblr accounts and pressures DD's kids through him to post nice family tributes so they'll cover for her manipulative tactics actively destroying everyone's hunky dory life.) It's the same train of thought as "Gillovny is married"; except your theories are couched with half facts instead of pure insanity.

Next: "She’s never looked anorexic to me so thin yes but not too thin. D was only shockingly thin after Téa left him for good in 2011. My criticism has alway been to question the men in her life and her surroundings pushing her to get plastic surgery and to over exercise which made her much slimmer than she was before. Is that constructive enough?" Yes, actually; because this ties beautifully into my next point about your warfare tactics.

Indirect aggression is a form of aggression that hides behind "my opinion" or "my two cents" to bully others without receiving backlash. While it can be used in sexually competitive environments (in same sex bullying, for example), it mainly extends to interpersonal groups, families, and anonymous online forums. To quote National Library of Medicine: "According to Björkqvist [15], females prefer to use indirect aggression over direct aggression (i.e. verbal and physical aggression) because this form of aggression maximizes the harm inflicted on the victim while minimizing the personal danger involved. The risk to the perpetrator is lower because he/she often remains anonymous, thereby avoiding a counterattack. As well, indirect aggression harms others in such a socially skilled manner that the aggressor can also make it appear as if there was ‘no intention to hurt at all’." I recommend reading the study: it has a few fascinating things to say about perceived threats and thinness, as well.

The study continues: "Indirect aggression is circuitous in nature and entails actions such as getting others to dislike a person, excluding peers from the group, giving someone the ‘silent treatment’, purposefully divulging secrets to others, and the use of derisive body and facial gestures to make another feel self-conscious." While I can't see your face while typing out a post, your words do a sufficient enough job: "When has she ever been stunning honestly? She’s comparable to Perry Reeves and Suzanne Lanza. Average, a little masculine, thin and no sagging. The face doesn’t matter to men like David, nor intellect."

Another quote from a study published on PubMed Central: "In indirect aggression, the aggressor often uses others in the social group to harm the target and may avoid direct confrontation, whereas in direct aggression, the aggressor either physically or verbally confronts the target." Examples? Posting one's opinions about another person indirectly to their blog by not, say, tagging or addressing the 'opposition' directly, leaving them to be told about it or stumble onto it later before they can defend themselves... that might, perhaps, fit the bill. As would calling David and Monique names; then, when given pushback, telling detractors they don't need to care about your opinions, anyway. (For the record, I don't. Just found it fascinating to study the oh so subtle shifts of your narrative back and forth. That compliment's a freebie, by the way-- I try to hand out at least one in each negatively bent post.)

Don't get me wrong: if Monique were a provably bad person, I'd dust off my hands and let you have at. But for all your opinions, you have very few facts; and the mess-ups, flubs, or ill-thought actions on MP's part you have mentioned are so disparate and scattered-- and rarely repeated-- that they look less like condemning incidents and more like overblown reactions to mundane or innocent mistakes.

And before you write off my points by claiming I'm claiming you're jealous of Monique or some such nonsense, one of the above studies openly acknowledges that indirect aggression is not built on the premise of intrasexual competition strategy: "...developmental psychologists have tended to not conceptualize females' use of indirect aggression as an intrasexual competition strategy."

Next: "Again with the whataboutism." Art thou 'Whataboutism'?

Next: "So you were at the after party to see people’s reactions and parties where D’s been drunk?" No, and neither were you. You were also not at David's apartment when Monique and the kids might or might not have been there; you were also not in the room when David and Tea and the kids discussed Tim or Monique; and you were also not in either Monique's or David's head during the posts, blocks, unfollows, refollows, etc. decisions that were made. I merely commented on the fact that you have brought up his drinking before events in in the past, your reactions to it, others on here's reactions to it, and David's circle of friends, and what I do and don't know of said friends' behavior in the past.

Next: "D and T were inappropriate but consensual. PM pulled G’s bikini bottom down when she was trying to close the umbrella and I slammed him for that too. She was humiliated and embarrassed when the pictures were released." Conflation. David and Tea were surrounded by people in both instances, knew others could see them, and didn't care, inappropriate or not. Peter Morgan and Gillian were on a private vacation; and their privacy was infringed on by the paparazzi and media. For all the negative talk that came out of that incident, not one person stated that G was unwilling, visibly uncomfortable, or angry at Peter Morgan for doing so; only that she was "humiliated and embarrassed" after the fact. The problem in BOTH situations is that PM and MP were groping their partners in what they took for granted as private situations-- I have a casual understanding of David's friends and wouldn't be surprised if they didn't care about her or his antics in the long run-- and were filmed without any parties' consent.

Next: "D did not know what MP was doing, he almost spilled his drink jumping back away from her and he did not look like he enjoyed that trick in a room full of strangers." I saw the video a couple times. Did you not catch his smirk once he realized she wasn't trying to tickle his stomach but was doing a game to end up at his junk? It wasn't a polite one, either. If she had intentionally crossed a boundary and made him uncomfortable, I condone that behavior.

Next: "Defending that kind of public humiliation is repugnant." That's a lie, and you know it. Not once in our conversation have I taken the position of condoning, endorsing, or rug sweeping manipulative, abusive, coercive, or other boundary stomping behaviors. They are repugnant to me; and though being called 'repugnant' doesn't make a dent because you have no proof to back up your claim. And, frankly, it speaks to your character that you would try to blacken mine.

Next: "I find it tasteless that you don’t really care what KF did to those young people as long as your golden boy comes out looking alright."

Excuse you, that is a lie and slander.

In the comments of our previous conversation, I stated over and over he was a pimp. He should absolutely rot for what he's done. But you assume that Monique is just as guilty: benefiting from a business relationship with him, sweeping his treatment of other girls under the rug, using a victim's story to score back pats for herself. The reality is, the victim sided with Monique, both when MP supported her in the comments and when MP posted her own Instagram story sharing she'd been "there" before. Foregoing the obvious conclusion, you posted their first back and forth with other comments tearing Monique apart as the secret villain in this tragic story. That's disgusting, in my opinion. I tried to understand why you got to that conclusion; but if not only her friends, not only her coworkers, but the victim HERSELF is standing by Monique, then it is not the time to vindictively insinuate she exercised the same mean, grasping, oily tactics as her former boss. Further, that she was exploiting someone else's tragedy and trauma for her own gain.

Next: "She can be immature and also be a user who uses situations to her advantage." To quote you once again: that's a lie. Prove it. You can't. You can only assume what her intent, motives, and actions are based on your inference of her character.

Next: "...the old greasy celebrity rocker KR was trying to push on them." You can't prove that; and until you can, I can sit here and say it's a lie. It's your inference against mine.

Next: "She did not say she was mistreated by her boss." I never said her boss mistreated her. I never even got that indication from the post you spread around. She related to her coworker's experience through her personal one. Just because KR was an absolute monster to other girls doesn't mean he was a monster to all of them: monsters, abusers, and manipulators pick on the weakest person who has no one to stand behind and back them up. Her father, for instance, would have been a not insignificant buffer. He's well-connected in California, or so you imply by saying he's met David before. And it stands to reason he would be, supplement and wellness culture being what it is in the Golden State.

Next: "According to you MP was an adult and mature enough so she should have know what those special favors from the boss looked like to everyone else." Let's not get into the "his family and friends should have known Ted Bundy was a horrible person" of it all. No one knows what they're not aware of. I have a close, close family member who grew up adoring an abuser because he'd never abused her; yet was horrified and had to process the fact her other sibling was being used for everything short of penetration. To quote a good ol' Aslan meme: "Do not cite the deep magic to me, Witch! I was there when it was written."

Next: "She wrote a short perfunctory show of support for damage control and went back to thanking her lucky stars she now has an easy life of privilege living in a multi-million dollar Malibu home by the ocean thanks to her boss at SLO." First: prove it. You can't with any degree of fact. Second: I'd be thanking my lucky stars, too. So would you. So does everyone who's been in a tangential situation to an abuser and escaped unscathed-- so unscathed that they didn't even know the boss was perpetuating abuse. And that can at least be proven because, as you say, MP's boyfriend was still buying from that shop days before everything broke out; and she publicly empathized with and received empathy from the victim right after. Has the victim made a scathing comment calling out Monique later? Nope. Bet they're still on good terms, too.

Next: "What else does a very rich 54 year old man want from a 21 year old but lots of sex and an easy relationship with someone who doesn’t know any better?" Lots of sex, an easy relationship free of the complicated dynamics of children from other relationships, and someone to love and love him. Seems logical to me. What is unacceptable in age gap relationships are the predators who aim for 21-year-olds (or 19-year-olds, as you posit) because they pull women their age and can't aim lower; and who lock 'em down and knock 'em up as quickly as possible so they can't escape. Or those who say "yeah, sure, I'll marry you" while dragging their feet until the girl (as they see her) gives up and stays or gets up and leaves. If the latter, they start fresh with another young woman who might not see through their routine bag of tricks. David, for all his faults, has stated his intentions up front and publicly: he's not marrying again. He still wears the ring tattoo from his previous relationship. He relived the trauma of a broken home through his own actions. He still can't dwell on the pain his kids went through during that time. Unless he decides to change his mind, Monique's outta luck. Yet, I don't believe she cares as much as you do if they do get married or not. Certainly not as far as either of us can prove, anyway. By the way, Tea and Tim haven't married yet, either; and they've been together provably longer than Monique and David.

Next: "She was male celebrity obsessed, younger but she went with the one who came into the shop and showed interest." Prove it. You can't. Let's say that's the case: she would've hopped to a new person long before now. David's got friends, she's gone to his parties, she's met his people. Opportunists don't sit long with a second option when they get an opportunity to grab for their first. I read your old posts about her Twitter/Instagram follows; but none of you take into account if she was following other people and pruned those people out as her interests changed. You also can't prove when she followed those accounts: the next day after she opened her account? A month after? A year after? I have accounts open I've never used; I have family and friends that do, as well. Let's say she opened it right away and began using it: again, when did she follow those accounts? Were those celebrities part of a collective that her boss or coworkers said came into the shop? Did she prune out the others after seeing them in person? Why? Because you assume other celebrities are immune to her masterfully unskilled manipulation, but David wasn't?

Next" "You’ll defend anything adjacent to D."

That's a lie.

Prove it. He had to go into a sex addiction program because he hurt his wife and kids. He talks about saving the planet yet doesn't take more than bare minimum actionable steps himself. (What he does in his personal life is of no concern to me; but it is hypocritical of him.) If he backs up Chris Carter against Gillian in the Revival controversy, I will lose a qualitative amount of respect for him (because there is actual, factual proof of wrongdoing on Chris's part to his longtime friend and mother of his goddaughter.) He has blind spots, faults, weaknesses, and failures like any other person.

Next: "I see a lot of arguments that do not have anything to back it up, like he probably acted inappropriately while drunk at a party before and so what?" No, my comment was even you have picked at DD for drinking before his shows. That even he has probably acted on impulse before or during a party. That even he didn't seem too bothered after he realized MP wasn't tickling him. That his expression changed when he saw someone filming their interaction. I also pointed out his and Tea's post-rehab reconciliation shenanigans of equal and greater caliber (having a jolly time at a public ballgame and rolling on top of each around other beachgoers.) I also pointed out that GA had a Portofino moment. Would I grab my boyfriend's junk if we were in public? No. But David did with Tea. The only difference between those situations was DD and T had the power of denial on their side while MP was not afforded that luxury. You called her behavior trashy; but posting someone's junk grab to the internet without their consent is trashier to me.

Next: "Disturbingly, that’s what seems to give her self-worth." Prove it, with testimony and evidence other than assumptions you and other Tumblr, Instagram, or Twitter jockeys assume and interpret. Give me a firsthand witness of her behavior. Give me a former friend or a colleague. Give me a family member. Give me someone other than people on Twitter being blocked by DD's account and assuming it's her. Further, give me proof what they were saying before they were blocked: I don't give mercy to people being snide, snarky, or vile and boohooing about it later. You don't, either, so I'm sure you'll respect that quality.

Next: "Evidence shows that chiropractic adjustments do more to harm than help...."

That's a lie, and a pretty brazen one.

WebMD, MayoClinic, Medical News Today, healthline, and more medical websites and journals have articles promoting chiropractic methods, as well as the warning signs like any other medical procedure. The only disclaimer they put up was that chiropractic adjustments haven't shown a conclusive improvement in athletic achievement.

One of their articles state: "All chiropractors must earn a postgraduate degree (DC), taking up to 4 years to complete, and are required 90 semester hours of undergraduate coursework, and some programs require a bachelor's degree. All states also require chiropractors to be licensed." And all medical doctors and nurses are required to be licensed if they practice medicine; yet, bad apples slip through the cracks. It's slander to paint me as a blackhearted, single-minded, "let them eat cake" person towards victims of possible scammers, manipulators, and frauds just because I don't fall in line with your viewpoint. Further, you indirectly lump me in with your public statements about her "snake oil salesman" father without having any proof whatsoever that chiropractic practice is detrimental other than a few studies-- which I hope you didn't lie about looking up, too-- that the medical community doesn't even stand behind, while using them as your sword and shield. All because you didn't have concrete proof against Monique's father, all because Monique is dating David, all because you don't like their relationship.

More quotes and linked studies from healthline: "For example, in a 2015 study, researchers found that a group of 544 people in chiropractic care reported a high level of satisfaction. ...A 2016 study found that the Cobb angle in a group of five children with scoliosis improved after 8 weeks of chiropractic treatment. Noticeable improvements were seen after 4 weeks of treatment. ...A 2017 case study examined the effect of chiropractic treatment on a 27-year-old woman suffering from back pain, neck pain, and headaches caused by hyperkyphosis posture." They even provide guidelines to find a chiropractor-- "Ask for recommendations from your doctor, physical therapist, or other healthcare provider." And-- "Ask your friends, coworkers, or family members if they have any recommendations."

Next: "Evidence shows that chiropractic adjustments do more to harm than help, but as long as people feel they work everything is hunky-dory?" Prove it. I have genetic backproblems riddling the maternal side of my family; and my great grandmother, a nurse, and her daughter, my grandmother, both had their spines slowly realigned over time with chiropractic procedures. From an almost noticeable hunch to an almost straight line.

Next: "It alarming that you don’t care about real harm being done to people’s spines because it’s D’s gf’s father providing the service?" I also have a maternal family member who suffers from severe back pain every day but can't afford treatment where she lives. You know how I help? Reflexology. Every time, it takes her back from a ~8/10 to almost nothing-- and this from a woman hypersensitive to her body's workings and with an incredible pain tolerance. And yet, I'd be the first person to sign her up for surgery if I could. I regularly push her to seek medical attention for the most minor inconveniences.

CONCLUSION

I'm sorry to say that you are either: A. blinded by my lack of agreement into misinterpreting my words to fit your own narrative-- which is really probable, actually-- or B. willfully telling lies, to yourself or others, because it helps you feel like you've come off on top of an argument.

I'm not interested in creating a rift or a war. I'm also not interested in lies, slander, gossip, and bullying disguised as "this is my opinion."

You can attest I've been nothing but kind, overly so, in the past; and that I didn't ever strike out unless you struck first-- and even then, only to mimic your words or phrases back to you.

I do not respect your opinions: they are baseless and poisonous.

I do not respect your tactics: they are beneath you and I.

I do not respect your lies and slander: that is a given.

Fare thee well. I'm sure we shall speak again.

#iwantapenguin #drama #skip if you don't want to read a breakdown of lies and slander XDDD #this has devolved from a civil discussion to a slander campaign #no chiropractic measures are not anti-science: even WebMD/healthline/Mayo Clinic promotes them #no I do not stand behind all age gap relationships #no I don't believe David is faultless #no David is not my golden boy #no I do not believe in your assumptions because I've tracked all of them to their starting points and they mostly contradict each other #or are based on anons or blind items that ALSO contradict your opinions #yes West is a nepo baby but no she is not friends with MP to get jobs from her dad when she can also get contacts from her mom #who has long-standing connections in the financial/wealthy/high society money class as well as entertainment #no I do not repugnantly defend public humiliation #(I pulled up exact quotes to prove my points below:)#no MP doesn't post behind DD's back and no DD wasn't uncomfortable just because he wasn't aware of it #no Tea does not want to strangle him because of Monique #no MP isn't exploiting the victim of a pimp and groomer just because she worked at his shop (like... y'know... the victim)#yes I do care about victims who are duped and deceived by snake oil salesmen #yes this post is long. Had a lot to respond to; and a lot to disprove

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hiroshotreplica · 5 months ago

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im sorry you probably dont want this in your askbox but i dont really think it makes sense to talk about madness and leafi the same way for a lot of reasons. Idk maybe im just seeing a transgirl getting relentlessly dogpiled because of old screenshots and having an over-empathetic response but fuck man she was 13 when those screenshots were taken. Shes not even 18 right now shes crazy young for her level of play (like literally should be community banned for lying about being 13 for multiple years during splatoon 2 to get around discord community guidelines but thats a tangent). She said in her apology she was trying to fit in with a real shitty group of people she doesn't associate with anymore and fuck man im probably giving herself way too much grace cause i seeing a terrifying exaggeration of something i went through on a public scale but like people are editing HER face onto memes and talking shit about HER and constantly misgendering her when madness is not only an actual adult but has been ACTUALLY DOING THIS SHIT RECENTLY. im not saying the shit she was saying wasnt heinous but fuck man this isnt gonna help her and i dont want the dumass bullshit she said when she was a middle schooler to ruin the rest of her life. sorry for the white girl mental illness blast but there is important context in this ranty anxiety and projection goop

anon asked for a tldr for the situation w/ jackpot as a whole, which included leafi's part in the situation. as the post was about how jackpot as a team has made racist statements. i chose screenshots that put my point clearly, which just so happened to be screenshots with madness and leafi. i'll go more into it here, though

i did not mean to compare her to madness when including screenshots of her old statements. i was compiling the most blatant screenshots from the thread i had originally linked in a prior post. i was going to include other things, but didnt have the time to compile them and was beginning to get stressed about being the source of this info on tumblr.

i was also going to include this video of her saying racist statements in 2024, but i didnt want to include a twitter link for an anon that couldnt access twitter. im realizing i shouldve done so

i do feel bad for her getting involved with a group of people THAT bad if she was truly that ignorant when she was younger, but thats where my sympathy ends. she still acted racist and still associated with clearly racist people even when she was older and more mature. ive learned since making that post that she was born in 2007. 16 is still an age where you should be mature enough to understand that those comments are racist, even with america's shitty public education system glossing over racism.

i definitely see why this can look like people dogpiling on a trans woman though, and the people doing memes and editing her into them in general about this situation are disgusting. i had no idea she was trans and that people were misgendering her. anyone making this situation about her being trans are awful and not people i stand by.

but all of that, including her being skilled despite her age, still doesnt forgive or erase her actions. nothing like that does for the other members of jackpot that have also stated racist things. nothing like that does for any other comp splatoon player that has said anything similar. the apology she put out was needed, but from what ive heard from others, it wasnt the best. she is writing another apology, though, so it couldve just been rushed.

no one has to accept her apology, either. as a white person myself, im not one that should even be one to accept her apology. it wasnt an apology for me, and it isnt one for you, either (if you are white as you say but i might be misreading). people should not be painted in a negative light for not accepting her apology even if it were an amazing one.

the way some people are reacting to this situation is not okay, but she still did awful things that she should be held accountable for. the other guilty members of jackpot are not better than her, but theyve all still said fucked up things. none of them have done anything to prove they arent racist, and theres only more evidence coming out that proves that they have been, so its hard to process at the moment.

could things change? yes, of course, but as of right now, leafi has stated racist things as recent as 2024 and put out a poor apology trying to defend herself. people are handling it poorly and trying to make it about her identity and making memes on it when it is not the right thing to do. these racist claims are being put w/ other racist claims made by other jackpot team members so it was included in my tldr post about the entire situation.

i apologize for poor wording in this, im not the best w/ these kinds of posts

#anon ask #important #i am Not thr right person for this but i wanted to clarify #i really shouldnt have posted more about it in general while i was still extremely anxious but oh well. hopefully this makes my thoughts-#-and intensions more clear

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fixfoxnox · 1 year ago

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Use this ask to ramble about anything, better if it's about Roach 🪳💖

(btw I think I found you in twitter by accident, I'm not sure, too anxious to follow anyway)

AHHHHH YESSS ROACH RAMBLE ASK MUAH MUAH (KISSES)

I haven't gotten to yell about my boy by himself in so long omggggg

Oh also before I forget, you probably did find my Twitter! I haven't really made any posts about it cause, tbh, I still have no idea what I want to post there, but I do indeed have a Twitter! It is here for anyone who wants to follow me. Right now I've just really been dropping random cod thoughts and reposting a lot of artists content, but who knows maybe I'll start doing some Twitter exclusive stuff or thread fics or something (has no idea how thread fics work). Anyways on to the boy:

I'm using this as an opportunity to just talk about whatever comes to mind and the first thing I wanna start with are like some alternate ideas I had for Roach's family before I landed on the Sanderson dynamic that I have now:

Roach from a military family

Imagine how fun it would be if Roach was raised in a military family, especially if they still had that overprotective aspect to them. Like baby boy who was raised around the military so he's been intimately familiar with it

Maybe he had some different talent and his family wanted him to go down a different path and not go military like them

He says fuck that and joins the military and fucks around and ends up joining taskforce 141

Extra funny points if his family don't realize that he's on a specialized taskforce cause he was so nervous about telling them and they find out in dramatic fashion

Maybe he drops in to save them on a mission or something like 🤭 the drama of it all I love it

Also side note but I was thinking so hard about the Sanderson boys (Johnathan and Eddie) and I can't draw so I have to snatch some Face Claims for them so this is what I think Roach's older brothers look like:

Johnathan is played by Lee Pace don't test me this man is tall and probably acts as his own security at his bar and also is a goofball and idk Lee Pace is perfect (this should not detract from me also thinking that Lee Pace is a perfect fc for König)

Eddie to me has to look something like Luke Norris idk I feel like he needs a softer and more like nervous/panicky energy than Johnathan and this man fits don't test me don't test me

Also for anyone who is wondering: No, I still don't have a face claim for my Roach. In my mind he changes so much I see so many different artists versions of Roach in my brain at all times so choosing an actor for him is so hard. I have...thoughts, but idk that anyone would enjoy the thoughts that I have so we'll pretend I don't have them.

More on Roach cause he's my lil guy, my lil dude, my lil buddy

Listen y'all know Southern Roach is my bias but also also also have been falling in love more and more with the idea of Russian Roach. He would be so funnn like he works with Nik beforehand maybe he was undercover with the ultranationalists. I also enjoy the idea of him cursing Shepherd and/or Makarov out in Russian I think it would be fun.

However Southern Roach rains supreme I was thinking so hard about a ghostroachsoap au recently based loosely on the song "Farmer's Daughter" by Rodney Atkins. (Y'all let me know if you want the full au its really just farm au cuteness)

Thinking so hard of Roach just being beloved in his small town as this Golden Child precious little dude then he goes off to the military and finally let's that feral side come out a little. Imagine how funny it would be for Ghost and Soap to go home with Roach and see their boyfriend pu on this innocent act and listen to people describe him as this perfect little guy when they know for a fact that Roach is like borderline feral two steps away from being considered a wild animal.

"He's such a good boy, would never hurt a fly."

Ghost and Soap who watched Roach tear a man's throat out with his teeth last week:

Also taking the opportunity to say that we as a community need to start acknowledging hoe canonically skilled Roach is with weapons! Like this is a boy who had both Price and Soap cursing because they couldn't get any kills because he was killing them to fast. This is a boy who beat Ghost (his luitenant) on a rifle test by a wide margin and on the test that ghost beat him he only fell behind four points.

Roach canonical has several extremely brutal takedown moves that he can do, including the pickaxes and the little fucking kick thing he does to the one guy before stabbing him. Also he's like straight up flipping his guns and doing tricks with them and shit in his weapons inspections, Soap talks about how good he is with C4 and shit.

Like I think people see the like spots where he got into trouble and nearly died in the campaign and take that to mean that he's like not as good as Ghost and Soap and needed their help a lot but like honest to God all of the trouble he gets in to is less because he fucked up and more because the world seems to have it out for him.

The roof breaking out from under him, the ice cracking on him, explosions happen to rock his ass just as soon as he hits an open field. Like someone was trying to kill this little fuck and two outta the three times they failed.

And like its not like Roach doesn't help himself during these situations. Like when he fell yeah he had Soap guiding him but he was the one having the run and slide and do all that shit like no amount of Soap's guiding could have made that easy for him.

Also this boy almost falls off a cliff but is able to get himself back on track enough that he not only finishes climbing the cliff but then does a whole ass stealth mission basically invading a Russian military base on his own???

Roach is a very talented and skilled bug and we should all be patting him on the head for how cool he is.

Also I think its absolutely funny cause In my mind he's smaller than Soap and Ghost both like height and build wise (not small, just smaller than those two behemoths) and so when the trio of them are together people like tend to underestimate him meanwhile Ghost and Soap are like "Uh, no, no you uh hey dude no" because they know that Roach will gladly fuck people up.

I also love the idea of Roach appearing out of nowhere like a fucking cryptid. There is no talking behind Roach's back or keeping secrets he is everywhere at once and will appear out of thin air. Ghost and Soap have to like fully leave base if they want to plan a surprise for him and even then both of them have no trust that Roach won't somehow pop into existence next to them waahahhahaha

Alright thats all for my rambling for now

#thoughts with luke #you asked luke #gary roach sanderson #simon ghost riley #john soap mactavish #call of duty #ghostroach #soaproach #ghostroachsoap

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prayforvices · 3 months ago

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July 2009 - The Split

On July 6th 2009, Panic! At The Disco posted something that would forever change the course of the band. It was a statement from their guitarist (Ryan Ross) and their bassist (Jon Walker) stating that they would be departing from the band.

Statement shown below:

“Ryan Ross and Jon Walker will be leaving Panic at the Disco to embark on a musical excursion of their own. Though the four of us have made music together in the past, we’ve creatively evolved in different directions which has compromised what each of us want to personally achieve. Over the years, we have remained close and honest with each other, which helped us to realize that our goals were different and that parting ways is truly what is best for each of us. We are all excited for the future, you should be too. -Ryan & Jon”

In many, many interviews, Spencer and Brendon were asked what caused the split, why did they split, etc.

Here is one of the many times they have answered this question (it was almost asked as much as why they dropped the exclamation point from the band's name in 2008, which is saying something):

“Well basically, you know, the four of us (the original members) were just you know talking and we kinda decided that we were all headed different directions musically. So, Ryan and Jon decided to, you know, do their own new musical, you know, adventure, excursion as they would say. And yeah, it's actually kind of great. It didn't end on any bad terms at all. So we kinda lucked out on that.”

From their Pop Show Fuse Tv interview in 2009

After the announcement, several members from the band (current and former) posted on Twitter.

Here is a quote talking about those posts from a Guardian article in 2009

Smith acknowledged the break-up with a Twitter post. "Every little thing is gonna be alright," he wrote, accompanied by a photograph from the studio. His former bandmates were a little less upbeat. Ross posted a link to the Beatles' I'm So Tired, while Walker quoted Kurt Vonnegut, "So it goes" – later complemented with another Beatles lyric: "Life goes on within you or without you."

I couldn't find the posts, sadly. They are probably out there somewhere though, so if you have found them please let me know.

During this time Panic! had a tour scheduled with blink-182, and they stated that they would still be going through with said tour.

#p!atd #brendon urie #spencer smith #post split panic #panic! at the disco #2009 #ryan ross #jon walker

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carbuncle-paws · 9 months ago

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When Angels Fall with Broken Wings fanfic FAQ

Peter x Reader | isekai, slow burn, enemies to friends to lovers, angst with a happy ending

Ao3 link here!

"You wake up, having apparently been transmigrated to the familiar world of Your Boyfriend. A horror game. It'll be ok, you've played enough times and read plenty of fanfiction, so you have a pretty good idea for how to survive this.

Or at least you did, before you realize you're not even Y/N."

I aim to update at least once a week, but sometimes will post more or less frequently.

We have a playlist now!

More information below.

About Peter - The way I characterize him is informed from the game, and the official blog and twitter. I try to get him as close to the original vision of him as possible! - His enneagram is 4w3 (unhealthy level) and he may possibly be on the ASPD spectrum. Probably has BPD too. - His love languages are acts of service and physical touch.

About Reader - The reader is as clean of a slate I can make them whilst still having (what I hope is) a compelling personality for the story. - That said though, they do have agoraphobia. - They can't remember details about their past life. - Their physical appearance is whatever you like, but they are shorter than Peter. - They're written to be gender neutral (or whatever gender you like) but will potentially be AFAB in intimate scenes, should it come up! - They are an enneagram 2w3 with acts of service and gift giving/receiving as their love languages. - They also swear a lot and are kinda silly lol

About Y/N - They're basically the same as in the game - but there's something else going on too - anything beyond that is spoilers! :3c

Differences from canon Things are mostly the same as in the game with some key differences, including: - They're not inside a video game... - Peter doesn't have fourth-wall awareness. - The drive between Peter's home and Y/N's apartment has been reduced to one and a half hours. This is necessary for some of the scenes I have planned to make sense. This doesn't change anything about the story, he still doesn't get enough sleep for other reasons.

Some information has been withheld for spoiler reasons!

#your boyfriend game #fanfic #FAQ #when angels fall - fanfic

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beardedmrbean · 1 year ago

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Nunya can you explain this Twitter meme? https://x.com/AmericanaEthos/status/1726098935662719272?s=20

Like, I black and went to predominantly black schools. And they couldn’t stfu about civil rights and slavery.

Like no poor, marginalized, or even working class American think our country is perfect. Is wrong to believe this leftists memes are very classist? Our textbook acknowledges the terrible ( that career politicians allowed minus their own evil shit) constantly.

Did these marxists sleep through history class? Like, American slavery is the only type of slavery talk about in school that I had a little mid fuck after getting online and learning about the Dahomey.

I legitimately don't know who the not Superman dude is, but I can guess given the context here.

I think you're probably right about them having slept through every US history class they ever took.

I learned "Trail of Tears" in elementary school, same with slavery, and a few other of the less than savory parts of US history then as the years wore on the lessons got more and more involved and graphic since watching "Roots" in 2nd grade is a good way to traumatize kids so you know they moved in a more age appropriate direction.

I feel like the majority of the people that do this kind of meme fall in to a few different categories.

Not American and ignorant of what is taught here beyond what they see on twitter (things like Texas/Florida won't be teaching about slavery) and they're trying for viral fame.

Slept through history and got lots of F's as a result.

Didn't sleep through history and have selective memory

Did well in history, but don't feel like the subject was given enough attention.

Which is a valid opinion but people need to realize that there's only so much time to teach these things because other things need to be taught as well. So be glad that unlike me you have easy access to all of the information in the world you could want and you can learn more on your own.

They teach the history warts and all, you're likely to hear about Rosa Parks, Emmet Till, Ruby Bridges, and the Tulsa race massacre.

Rosewood massacre, Ocoee massacre, various tests before you could vote

This one is pretty easy so far. (just saw a longer version, it gets complicated)

Louisiana one here on the other hand... You got this if you couldn't prove at least a 5th grade education. 5th grader that passes this should directly to MIT.

very few people regardless of race are gonna be doing well on this.

But ya if we're doing racial issues it's all taught, most all at least. How much time did you see get spent on the people that built the railroads, the majority of whom if it was going west to east were Chinese and east to west Irish and all of whom were treated as disposable.

The 'if you die I can hire another man, but I gotta buy another mule' attitude.

Fuck I'm in CA and we did not spend a whole lot of time on that one, mostly that it was dangerous work and lots of people died.

I think at this point the best response you could give someone that makes or posts a tweet like that would be

"your abject failure to learn as a student does not mean the information wasn't taught"

(If you feel like hurting your brain I'm gonna link a few of the "literacy" tests)

Mississippi (not terrible)

Louisiana (whole thing, good luck)

Alabama (starts out easy enough, didn't skim too far so might turn incredibly difficult)

If you do any of these let me know how you did please, these things are insane. _________________

Hope this wasn't too long winded, tried to keep it mostly brief

#anonymous

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zukosdualdao · 8 months ago

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Im glad to read the takes of a fellow zuko stan :)

Honestly, it feels like people just hate on him way too much lately. The posts ive seen on twitter, on tik tok, on tumblr... Do people just not like him anymore? Why did everyone turn against him so suddenly? I've been hoping it's something temporary, just a trend, but. I don't know anymore. People mock his disability, spit on his trauma, wish death on him and interpret everything he says or does in the worst possible way. I saw someone crying about how entitled he was because he took aang's seat when watching the play just the other day lmao. Another person wrote about how mysoginistic he was because he didn't remember katara's name when asking about kya's death to sokka? There are those who even call him a colonizer on the same level as iroh lmao. It seems their justifications for all the salt they throw his way are along the lines of "he's been loved for too long, aang stans have suffered way more, people just watched the show again and realized how bad he actually was, he's catching strays since his fans keep setting him up, his fans paint him as perfect and erase every bad thing he's done" etc etc. I'm all for criticism and deeper character analysis, but this is just said in bad faith. I also think it has a bit to do with how different engagement has become in fandom spaces recently (things people support in fiction need to be morally correct) and well, zuko was the perfect target. He's done bad things, sides with the villains for a good portion of the series, redeems himself but there are things he still has to work on... I don't know, it's been getting to me. There are many other harsh things ive read said about him (like implying how every single member of the gaang hates even after redeeming himself), but i honestly don't have the energy to delve into each and every one. His arc was poorly executed and his development was badly written now, apparently. I kind of just ranted here, i apologize. Im very happy to read the posts of someone who genuinely likes him and doesnt throw him under the bus to defend or elevate other characters...

hi! i'm glad you're enjoying my blog <3 and no need to apologize for the rant, i'm always happy to talk about zuko!

about to theorize a bit as to why it seems like maybe zuko has become a more contentious character, but it should be noted i have not been exceptionally, actively involved in the fandom very long. i loved atla as a kid, have retained fond memories, have witnessed some discourse from the fringes over the years, but only recently has it overtaken my brain to the point of making a whole blog about it. lol. so, like, grain of salt, etc.

i think a big part of it is what you said - in the last few years of fandom in particular, it feels like there has been a huge upswing in purity culture, moralizing liking/not liking certain ships or characters, and an overall increase in very black-and-white thinking. there's also an emphasis on "holding people accountable" (good in theory), often without specifying what, exactly, that looks like (less good). the idea then becomes that if you've done harmful things, there's no way you can ever make up for them and should just, like, hate yourself for all eternity and also die, probably, which is not actually helpful to anyone.

so, i think for those who ascribe to that mindset, zuko is a prime candidate for them to criticize. and while there's nothing wrong with criticizing a character or their arc or writing if you truly have a problem with it, as you've said, a lot of the time, criticisms against zuko don't seem to be made in very good faith. after all, a big part of zuko's arc is having to unlearn some very black-and-white thinking. also, zuko is not a real person. he is a character, and therefore a narrative tool, and if we want him to be 'held accountable', we need look no further than the story itself, in which he is probably the character the narrative holds the most accountable for his actions due to his prior status as a villain.

(it reminds me a bit, actually, of another favorite character of mine: alec in the tv series shadowhunters. he starts out the story already in a heroic role, unlike zuko, but a big part of his narrative is unlearning some prejudiced cultural mindsets and challenging not only his previous ideologies, but his conception of himself and the people in his life as well. as a result, alec can look sometimes more obviously flawed than the other main cast, but the point is that the narrative asks him to examine those flaws and change and introspect and grow in a way that it doesn't always ask of other characters when they are showcasing their own flaws. which does make me thing about zuko vs. aang in the atla narrative.)

the other thing i think is contributing to zuko's more contentious status in the fandom is how long atla's been in the cultural consciousness, and how common it is for things that used to be popular to cycle through to people starting to criticize or actively hate it to people saying "no, actually, it's still pretty good, you just don't want to like a popular thing" (this is me rn), to maybe eventually getting popular again/at least in certain subsects of the audience. zuko was probably one of the most talked-about aspects of atla for a long time, and while i can understand how that could get frustrating (because there are some other really great characters and aspects of the story!), that's not, like, for no reason. people connected with and admired his story for a reason, and many still do, and (in my humble opinion) that is because it is one of the most thought-out, intentional, and nuanced character arcs of the show.

the ableism, i think, really gets to me because like... even if every criticism from the people who hate him were 100% accurate and said in good faith (they're not, but let's pretend for a minute)... that still wouldn't be an excuse for ableism against a character with a prominent facial difference (or making fun of abuse survivors for the permanent injuries they sustain from abuse.) if zuko had never redeemed himself and stayed a villain, it would still be wrong to talk about his scar and abuse the way some of his detractors do. and the show agrees with me! you know how i know? the only two characters to ever make fun of zuko's scar are villains in the narrative: zhao and azula. ("make fun of" might not be quite right for zhao, since what he said - "you have the scar to prove it" - is far more matter-of-fact than azula imitating him by covering her eye or "make sure they get your good side", but he's absolutely being a huge jerk about it.) other characters react to zuko's scar in all sorts of different ways, even when he's still in a villain/antagonist/anti-hero role: zuko's crew is horrified to learn how he got the scar, song sees a point of connection and tries to reach out to him, but, while i think well-intentioned, she breaks a major boundary by trying to touch his scar when he hasn't conveyed he's okay with that, jet makes assumptions about his background because of it, lee, the kid from zuko alone, asks with curious, childish naivete how he got it, only for his father to reprimand him for asking, aang reacts with annoyance/boredom to azula's ableist joke, and katara trips over her words to correct him when zuko thinks she's essentially calling him "scary to look at". not all of these interactions are positive, but the characters (all of whom are written as pretty sympathetic, even if also flawed) aren't outright trying to make fun of him for it, and the narrative never implies he deserves to be treated as less than because of it, even before his redemption.

anyway. if people don't believe in characters' (and, hell, irl people's) capacity for growth and change and don't want to have nuanced discussions about how trauma can impact these things, i mean... that's their prerogative, but i don't understand why they enjoy the show, because those are big parts of it (and not just wrt zuko.)

i know it can be frustrating, anon— trust me, i get very frustrated. but i promise you, there are plenty of people out there who a) still love zuko and his story and b) are capable of and willing to talk about things with nuance and in good faith. i'm happy to be part of that corner of fandom, and i bet you can manage to carve out a space where more people like that exist, too! <3

#fandom critical #aang critical #atla critical #a little. jic #ableism //#abuse //#atla #zuko #anonymous #asks #i didn't delve into some of the specifics of people's aggravating bad-faith takes anon bc otherwise this post would be 3x longer but trust #hate them too #also the world is not ready for my alec/zuko parallels post that i still haven't made #cross-media parallels #for reasons

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unhinged-comics-screaming · 8 months ago

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⁺˚⋆｡°✩₊ Weekly Bravern Madness Post ₊✩°｡⋆˚⁺

Episode 11 Spoilers ahead, naturally

I'm actually on my second watch since we found out our water heater is leaking so that was a whole thing so not quite first impressions but that's literally me screencapping every scene and screaming so probably better this way

Okay important things about me to consider for my lens as I go through this

I think Isami is so so so cute. I'll probably make a cute Isami screencaps post as a separate thing. His gap moe is so cute. I love his stern face. I think Smith is great too but I love the focus reshifting to Isami. Anyway. He's so cute

In terms of Smith as Bravern I guess I view it as the reverse too? I don't really know how to explain it but I guess in Japanese there's tags for Smith + Isami (Sumiisa) and Bravern + Isami (Braisa?) and in my head it's all Sumiisa. Like he may look like a giant robot but he's still Smith, if that makes sense.

Second watch bonuses: realizing why she reacts this way at his mention ;-;

Right away, I guess I got my beach episode! I love that Isami and Lulu have Bravern brand summer clothes. I hope they come out as merch. It comes up rarely eg. the boxing shoes from ep 5 have the (Burn?) Bravern specific emblem on them and I just think it's so cute. Like yeah Bravern probably printed them just for these instances and I wish we got enough show to see it in action.

I actually got so emotional at the end of episode 9 when the OP starts playing without the lyrics and this showing up with the ED music is phenomenal. Extra delicious that it starts with part of the full version of the ED that's not in the normal ending.

I also love this because the other two emotional moments where it's like, starting something but not completing it are the after boxing scene and when Isami is crying into Lewis' shirt (okay this can easily be assumed to fill out as "I wanted the two of us to save the world together" but what else did you want to do with hiiiiim). The shipper mind wants to fill it in with some love confession and then!!!

After the like, back and forth name stuff (which parallels the Lulu + Superbia fusion) I was like, pre-emptively bracing for some kind of goofy baiting/played for laughs thing but no he goes for it!!

I actually have a collection of any instance of Isami with any amount of coloring on his cheeks and I've been lamenting that the only full blush moments are when he gets the asian flush drinking but aaaaah so cute. Also he looks so young here! He's 24 he should be falling in love!

Also I'm like, actually really impressed about this scene technically because It's just a really good looking turnaround animation. With Bravern he's 3D so whatever but isami looks good from every angle!

The artist who adds the extra effects like bloom and color tweaks on scenes occasionally tweets out their before and afters and I really hope we get this scene where they point out they added plush, kissable lips onto Bravern.

I reblogged a post about it but I do really love that Isami isn't like, disgusted or pushing him away or anything. Not even grateful Lulu interrupted it. Maybe he's actually disappointed she interrupted.

I know it sets ups the symbolic washing away of it but in case there was any ambiguity to the nature of this love:

There's some discussion across japanese twitter about how you're not supposed to do some line in the middle but based on some cursory stuff I'm not sure how common that thought process is. Also Bravern isn't that much of a pro in Japanese culture (even a lot of JP twitter was confused at his proud "This is OMIAI!").

If you aren't involved in Twitter, a comment people like to point out is that they specifically hired a Food Coordinator for this episode lol. I took a bunch of caps of it but between this and Isami's "we need to eat to be strong enough to save everyone" talk I need to do my Dunmeshi + Bravern food as strength and love post.

Anyway I'm obsessed with the fact that Bravern doesn't need to eat but actually has a mouth which reminds me of this tweet my sister brought to me

Naturally, his mouth is for kissing, Among other things.

Okay honestly the food bit is so weird I was kind of worried the entire first half of the episode turns out to be a dream sequence.

I need to set this as my desktop background or something. I think it's really cute that they added/implied that Isami and Bravern are now a cutesy couple rather than Isami being all weird about the love confession.

THIS! Is the point in the post I realize that watching while typing these up leads to me just doing a play by play which isn't really much of anything. I promise the rest of the post isn't just as long even though we're only halfway through the episode.

(Hey, timeskip OP here. This might be a lie)

Lulu + Superbia symbol! It's cute and has a really nice mix of being similar but opposite in it's own way.

I am obsessed with Segnitas being too lazy to fight and honestly I think he's so cute. The interrupting the fusion is kinda expected for a a show with every bit being in universe but it's still a good gag. I'm glad he is around to make commentary until his true death.

I kind of expected the Bravern + Superbia fight to be an episode 2 thing but I guess we won't have the time for that given the end of this episode. Triple shoutout to my Wednesday post by having the "You can get fulfillment from living!", seeing a callback to Lulu's kick and basically having an awesome fight.

Okay ending time. I have a lot of thoughts but one of the ones as I was watching was just.. He can't eat but he can bleed (and cry)? Actually considering that he explodes it's probably oil or something. Like obvs he isn't going to explode into purple triangles like everyone else but oofda. I am all sorts of sad about this but one thing that gets me is that Bravern doesn't even die fighting! It was a stealth attack!

There's some theories that Isami has a change of heart too fast and this might be another time loop, which I think would be on brand but man his reaction to Bravern dying is too much there's at least no way it's because of a Bravern dying bad end. Actually, I wonder if the damage to Bravern's core is worse than we can tell? Lulu bad end looks way worse though. Or maybe hypothetical Isami time travel route is -> they don't fight Superbia -> defeat one more death drive -> Superbia realizes he doesn't get his warrior death -> he takes on the last Deathdrive 1v1, dies -> remaining DD dies somehow but Superbia is still gone -> Isami goes back to save him for Lulu (they can't risk double time looping her?) -> doesn't ever experience Bravern dying so this is new and terrible.

In this case, Ira is acting unpredictably specifically because they do the no-kill route with Superbia. He's evidently super disgusted and I wonder if it's because its the peaceful resolution between the two? Otherwise I'm curious why else. Actually in general I'm curious why everyone is so personal with Bravern but I think we've all been asking that.

I think some people mentioned it on Twitter but Lulu very casually mentions her time travel lived experiences so it would be weird if they didn't know Bravern himself enabled it. Like I mentioned in my other post. He literally can't take on two giant mechs without Bravern and he knows for sure Superbia can't take on someone.

It's interesting that Bravern has different final words in this timeline than Lulu bad end but he also probably never had that stargazing scene in that route. Actually, you know what, I think Lulu bad end he does know it's Lulu because I don't think Isami was there for the specific curry scene we saw. He's still crying, naked in Bravern during that. Unless he just talks about Japanese curry all the time where we don't see.

Smith's last words are specifically "Brave Bang" (yuuki bakuhatsu) vs Bravern's "Brave Burn" and I'm basically Pepe Silvia-ing it up trying to figure out what it means. It's not really a direct confession about being Smith (because he's still a coward in that regard) but maybe it's a secret move/activation considering the moves are in English?

I think any kind of extra finale speculation requires its own post but that's my thoughts!

hm. Sorry. Maybe I should get into writing fanfic so you at least get something out of this

#bravern spoilers #can I use the no beta we die like fools tag on a poorly done essay #I didn't even really analyze the episode tbh #11/10 it's good thats all you need to know #the first best time to watch bravern is as its airing for the theorizing #the second best time is now

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