#i say that in regards to spn and spn only

[sleepyspiriit]

jimmy.

i feel bad for jimmy. i feel HORRIBLE for jimmy.

He had a daughter, a wife, a life. He had a FUTURE. Cas took it all from him, his daughters life was destroyed

[crackers4jenn]

spn is such a funny show, it'll be like:

Naomi tells Cas he has to choose "us, or them" and 'them' is meant to imply Sam and Dean both, but then

she makes Cas kill fake copies of Dean only

Or Metatron will speechify about how Cas is "in love... with humanity"

and then give Cas another lil speech about how it was all "to save Dean Winchester. That was your goal, right? I mean, you draped yourself in the flag of Heaven, but ultimately it was about saving one human, right?"

Ishim shows up and tries to tell Cas how weak he is for befriending Sam and Dean

and then when he wants to "cure" Cas of his human weakness, that weakness is just Dean

AND THEN you'll have things like

Sam will say that Cas is family, that he'd die for him

but he also refers to Cas as an "it" just hanging around in a vessel strong enough to take on Lucifer (in season 11!! It's not like he said that in s4 or something, it was like 8 years after knowing the guy)

Or in "Regarding Dean," Dean will say to Sam "and our best friend's an angel!"

and then when he's by himself in the mirror, he'll say "and Cast--Cas is my best friend."

[shanastoryteller]

i know spn hates good writing and also sam, but the dumpster fire of s4 really could have been salvaged if they'd just played ruby and castiel straight

by which i mean

ruby should have been one of the good guys (honestly it feels like the writers changed their minds last second regarding her anyway)

castiel should have been the villain (which, let's be clear, he totally was)

the point of this is that it would force dean to confront his own bullshit and maybe figure himself out, which not only would have been good television but would have been satisfying to me, personally

sam's problem is that he wants there to be a good equal to every evil. that he believes goodness exists even where it doesn't, that he always wants to give things a chance, that he always has hope. they sound like good traits, up until they're used against him. they reach the station of angels are bad eventually, but it should have been more immediate and visceral, that there is no greater good here. sam should have had this knocked out of him, which would have shattered him in way, to lose this thing he's depended on his whole life, but it really would have hammered home that it's choices that really do matter, not circumstances

dean's problem is always that he sees monsters as monsters with no grey area, that sam always has to play his moral center the second anything becomes complicated. then he goes to hell, breaks, tortures innocents, and an angel yanks him out and tells him that he's a righteous man

dean desperately desperately wants this to be true

because it's sam who they had to look out for, sam who was destined to go darkside, sam with the demon blood

dean doesn't have that excuse

he's just a human man with a hunger for violence who never learned to curb his appetite. who was instead pushed to gorging himself on it, who is left broken and desperate and angry by what he did to save himself. his whole life, his whole self perception for thirty years, was about protecting innocents. then he betrays that in hell. do you think he kept count? how many innocents he destroyed against how many he saved? the day it equaled out, do you think he wished he could weep?

dean is so unbelievably messed up by hell. not the torture he endured, that's barely a blip, but the torture he inflicted is what haunts him

so he needs for sam to be the bad guy

he's using his powers, he's hanging out with demons, he's drinking demon blood. he's the monster. he's inhuman

(he's using his powers and hanging out with demons and drinking demon blood and still he's doing less harm than dean, still he's trying to save people. dean can't accept this, because he can't be the rotten one. he'll forgive sam anything, but never himself, so it has to be sam. because he can fix sam, he'll always love his brother, so if he's evil there's stil a path forward there. but if it's dean? if he's the one going evil? sam's left him before. why would he stay now? if dean is the one going darkside then he loses everything. himself. his brother. it has to be sam)

dean is projecting all his own shit onto sam because he can't deal with any of it, which is why he treats sam like shit, why he treats him in a way that he's never treated him before. it's how he treats himself. and sam has no idea what to do with this, is left reeling and hurt and broken himself by dean doing this to him. sam never thought dean would leave him to die in the panic room, because dean wouldn't, not the dean he's known his whole life, not the dean that loves him. not alone.

but dean would do that to himself. and since sam is his proxy for himself, it's what he does to sam, but sam doesn't know that so all he feels is the weight of betrayal and grief and rage

isn't it funny, almost? the demons brought sam back just as he was, exactly the same. the angels bring back dean but he's not the same. dean comes back wrong, comes back different. but no one wants to say that. to deal with it

having ruby be evil and castiel venerated justifies all of dean's spiraling, all of his punishment. he was right all along, sam was the problem, don't you see?

boring

ruby stays loyal to sam, a demon who chooses something different, who chooses the boy with the demon blood because there's something compelling about sam winchester, as tempting as the apple before eve, and ruby didn't get where she is by knowing better

(remember when sam pulled all the psychic kids together, acted as leader, and resisted azazel? there is a leader in sam, a compassion in him, that azazel had to cheat in order to beat. and if ruby can show him how to win against demons then-)

castiel let sam out of the panic room. he's following orders, because that's his job, and damn the consequences. this should have been seen as the act of betrayal and evil that it was, castiel proving he was never really on their side at all, never on the side of preventing harm. it also would have made his redemption arc mean something, it would have given castiel a lot more to work with if they'd had to really bring him back over

ruby realizes too late what killing lilith means. tries to stop sam, but now that she's here it's too late, kill or be killed. sam accepts that, is willing to die rather than start the apocalypse. but then dean is there, and he can't watch his brother die again, he just can't. so he kills lilith to save dean, when he would have been willing to die himself

ruby gets them out of there. they discover what castiel did, that he pushed forward the apocalypse rather than prevented it

this breaks dean. he finally snaps, but it's good, because everything he'd used to shore himself up before had been terrible and rotted and corrosive

a righteous man is not a good man. dean is forced to confront everything he's done in hell, and after he'd gotten back, everything he put sam through, how he left him in that panic room and almost killed him, how he's treated him for the past year. how it was a demon who tried to help in the end and an angel that damned them

and how sam saved him anyway, damn the consequences

we should have returned to what the show had been building up to from the beginning - that sam loves his brother enough to do terrible things and dean has no idea how to deal with that

so we've got sam and dean on the run with ruby, castiel's slower and much juicier redemption arc, and dean having to pick up the pieces of himself while sam tries to figure out how he gets them out this mess. and sam's guilt is justified here, his aching sense of responsibility, because this time he kills lilith knowing it'll free lucifer. he makes that choice, for dean. and he's determined to fix it

just. demon blood tainted sam and turncoat ruby trying to save the world. the angels trying to end it. all while dean finally accepts the crushing guilt of what he's done and starts to work through it, starts to work on becoming the brother sam lost, on once more being the steady thing sam can hold onto no matter what it takes, because sam choosing him reminds him of something he'd told himself he forgot

he doesn't want to be a righteous man, a torturer, a demon, a victim, a martyr

he just wants to be sam's brother. the one he looks up to, depends on, loves

he wants what he's always wanted

to feel worthy of his little brother's affection

[angelsdean]

All these thoughts also prompted me to think abt what John and Mary's fights were often about, especially the fight where John leaves and Dean then comforts Mary. And I think a big part of it was Mary keeping secrets and sneaking around with regard to hunting.

We know she was still hunting in 1980, when she saves Asa Fox. Dean would've been a year old and the hunt is not local, it's up in Canada. Mary says she's been tracking this werewolf for a long time and that they have history. I do think when she says "a long time" she means years and that she hasn't actively been tracking it but it's been something on the back-burner that she's kept an eye on all these years. But that still means she left for a number of days at the very least, and I wonder what she told John. What excuse did she come up with to justify suddenly taking off when they have a baby at home. And no, I don't think she needed to be there as "the mom" to take care of Dean or that she can't spend time away from the home or that fathers are incapable of taking care of their children or anything like that. But I think John would certainly wonder what's taking her away from them so suddenly. What could possibly be so important. And with a hunt like this, I don't think she could've exactly given him a set time-frame for her return.

Now, imagine that happening multiple times. Imagine that happening again when Sam is just a few months old. She says she has to go visit her uncle who's poorly (father of the Campbell cousins. The uncle that paid for her headstone when she died). And then she's gone for longer than she anticipated. And John is just suspicious. And when she comes back they argue about it. "I know you're lying! Just tell me the truth, Mary! What, are you seeing someone else?" And Mary holding firm to her lies because her family cannot know about the supernatural and hunting. Because she doesn't want her kids growing up like she did. Because John is her suburban fairytale. He can't know. And then John snaps. He's pissed. He thinks she's cheating while he's working to provide for the family AND watching the kids in her absence. So he flings a "Is Sam even mine?" at her in his rage and she slaps him and tells him "Don't you dare" and then John storms out in a huff but then calls later to talk about it more and Mary shuts him down. "No, John. … We’re not having this conversation again... Think about what? … You’ve two boys at home. …"

I can imagine a version of this phone call going something like this:

John calls. Maybe apologizes for what he said, but mostly just wants her to be honest with him.

John: Please, Mary, can we just talk about this.

Mary: No, John.

John: I just want you to tell me the truth! What are you hiding? What's going on that you can't tell me?

Mary: We're not having this conversation again.

John: Oh okay, 'we're not having this conversation again.' Well then can you blame me for where my mind is going? What would you think, huh?

Mary: Think about what?

John: You know how it looks, Mary. And I just, I can't keep doing this--

Mary: You have two boys at home. (and ohh the delicious irony of that in the context of her being the one leaving to continue hunting in secret)

John, probably, since the convo seems to continue: Oh that is rich coming from you right now, Mary.

Anyways, this is only one of many many scenarios I can imagine of their fights. And it's perhaps a little too sympathetic to John, but! I enjoy thinking of John complexly, especially considering how Young John is presented in SPN, and also John in the opening scene of the Pilot seems like the easy-going family man, who definitely had underlying issues prior to Mary's death (thank you SPNWIN for confirming that) but clearly those issues got worse after Mary's death, and for the most part he wasn't yet the guy we see him become after he is transformed by grief and anger. Also s12 Mary's rose-tinted recollections of John being such a good father, which starkly contrast to Dean's later memories of John, I think it's not a huge leap to say John pre-Mary's death was a good father, and I think seeing Mary leave them (likely repeatedly) under secretive circumstances for days at a time would have bothered John back then and been a continuous point of contention in their marriage.

And again, this is all simply one angle of interpretation, theorizing, and headcanoning and by no means the only possible scenario.

[mismatchedwonders]

I love that even though it was a campy underproduced and (probably) underfunded show, SPN gave us some genuinely GREAT actors.

Like, just look down the list:

Jensen is INVOLVED and CAPTIVATING

Misha is VERSATILE and EMOTIONAL

Jared

Jim is SERIOUS and COMFORTING

Jake is ENERGETIC and ENTERTAINING

JDM is MULTIFACETED and REALISTIC

Ruth is CHARISMATIC and DELIGHTFULLY WICKED

Richard is FUNNY and FLEXIBLE

Rob is INTERESTING and LIKEABLE

Alex is BELIEVABLE and GENUINE

Mark is CONFIDENT and FASCINATING

Samantha is SWEET and GROUNDED

Sebastian is SNARKY and FUN

Mark (P) is SCARY and SYMPATHETIC

Rachel is COOL and PASSIONATE

+a whole lot of others that I can’t remember + a hell of a lot of the guest cast also did sooo good. Just wanted to take a second to celebrate the performances people turned in for the Yeehaw Brothers in the Muscle Car show

Edit since I’m already seeing shit about it: I don’t have replies on bc I never had them on to begin with. In case you haven’t noticed, I haven’t posted on here nearly at all since I got this blog, I don’t care that much about it. This is simply a place where I go to talk into the void so my thoughts aren’t constantly in my brain.

Also, regarding Jared, I have my own complicated feelings about him as a person, especially considering that he’s done a lot of scummy shit and brushed off that behavior with “uwu I have mental health issues” which, yes I can sympathize with since that is an AWFUL thing to struggle with (and I’m in a similar boat when it comes to shit like depression) but that’s not an excuse to behave how he does.

Also, no one else from the show has been able to find work? Lmao fucking where are you getting that? Almost everyone from SPN has acted in at least one other thing since it finished airing, and even some THIS YEAR, whereas Jared has only acted in ONE SHOW that he produced and got created for HIMSELF, and even then it was canceled (bc it wasn’t that well-reviewed by anyone, even by wipe who like the guy).

I don’t categorically hate ALL of his acting, there are a few episodes where he is genuinely good. But he just progressively got worse and worse over the series. And as for the “steady acting career” before SPN, sure, if you count roles in D-list mediocre movies as steady work. And in a lot of those, his acting isn’t much different.

And I know for a fact that people will say stuff like “well if he’s so untalented/unpleasant, why was he kept on? Why does he have work?” Well, see above, and there are plenty of fundamentally untalented actors that continue to get work bc they’re conventionally attractive

So yeah, just a bit of clarification

Have a lovely day 😘❤️

[olderthannetfic]

its kinda hilarious to be honest that saying "because of the rampant bigotry in harry potter, and because of j k rowling's extremely pubic behavior, and the fact that she spends any money she gets from harry potter, which includes library purchases, official merch, etc, on material harm, i can not think of the fans as safe people to interact with" is something thats a controversial opinion.

its not even a "this thing is gross, evil, and should not exist" thing its a "you realize she uses any money she gets from this, which she will continue to make tons of money from this as long as it remains culturally relavent, to actually harm a marginalized minority she has decided to hold a personal vendetta against until the end of time".

if she were dead and the money wasn't going to hurting a group of people who can't actually defend themselves against a whole entire billionaire, i don't think the people squicked out by harry potter fans would care so much.

and the people squicked out haven't actually put out calls to harass them or anything, more just saying things like "i'm going to block you for my own safety, because you're not safe to me"

they aren't pulling anti shit. they're calling the fandom a personal red flag, who they choose to avoid.

pretty telling to be honest, that the reaction to that one account going "yeah no." in regards to not judging harry potter fans got so many people angry at them.

reminds me of why i choose to stay anonymous in fandom spaces.

oh no. someone is uncomfortable your personal comfort media written by a bigot who uses her money to make a very vulnerable minority groups lives hell, and her rhetoric has actually caused deaths! better block the person and write a bunch of stuff talking about how thats anti behavior so i don't have to think about the fact that i help rowling maintain cultural relavence, and therefore help her earn money that she uses to hurt people!

pathetic

--

We've had this wank many a time.

Personally, I'm not sympathetic to the fact that it's people's comfort media or unique for them. That just ends up annoying me for how other fandoms could be bigger or more vibrant if some of those HP fans migrated.

However, the reason people are pushing back so much on my tumblr is that we talk a lot here about censorship and media and the bigger picture. JKR is a menace, but HP is so astronomically popular that the fanfic arm of its fandom is essentially meaningless to its overall cultural clout.

I think people should go stan some other author because we could make a book fandom happen and authors able to pay the rent if we cared to put our energy towards somebody smaller. I have this same objection to the forever fandom of SPN and all the people whining about but not leaving MCU fandom. To JKR, we're gnats, but our presence would actually make a difference in some smaller space.

But the kind of ask you've just sent only makes people less willing to let go of HP.

[crowned-clown-rising]

I know the original tag was a joke, it's always fun to bend canon for destiel jokes.

But this thing about Sam not giving a flying fuck about destiel is sadly the most accurate to canon. I mean fanon Sam matchmaking and always in the middle/ tragically unaware is great but canon Sam??? why is he like that.

Like the whole season 11 when Cas let Lucifer posses him -in Sam's place and bc he thought he wasn't important enough to fight for- and Dean is utterly distraught, not resting not eating not sleeping barely joking always trying to get him back etc... and Sam is all the time like... "oh, well." "dw bro, we'll find a way *goes to sleep*" "chill, Cas is okay. *eats his breakfast calmly*"

And I know, I know script wise he is worried as well and only being logical and Dean is the one overly worried about Cas, but the way Jared delivers it is: 0 fucks given.

[lol-jackles]

I looked at your links of commentary on 15.18 and memes mocking Cas, because memories have slid over time about reactions that night. What I'm wondering is if Jensen's last con reaction--saying the text was there, reactions there, no need to revisit what had gone on--was A SIDE STEP OR AN EVOLUTION. Because imo it felt very much related to what he's said from day one, only more delicately phrased on the friend zone part and more bluntly on No!NotAgain <starkytower/status/1794778358024409591>

The "Relive the best memes mocking Cas descent into Turbo Mega Hell" in the 15x18 tag?

Have read the transcripts and seen the video, I say it was a side step (also the name of Cordell Walker's bar). Jensen never changed his anti-Destiel stance since 2014, and he hasn't changed his answers regarding the meme-making confession since 2020. Jensen is just getting better at being diplomatic when answering the same damn trap-loaded question while never straying from his original stance. And hellers are as usual twisting Jensen's words for their own clout-chasing or self-soothing.

Destiel hellers can't stop being bitter over the finale nearly 4 years later because they spent decade+ investing both emotionally and money on a stupid slash ship so they desperately need a "win" to show for their decade+ of investments.

This sad sap had a petition and wrote 29 pages essay on why few thousand entitled basement dwellers *deserve* a new SPN finale. 4 years later and they couldn't even get half the online Destiel fans to sign the petition.

This other petition even got less signatures.....

[eisforeidolon]

Forgive me for restating the obvious, but I was reading through an old post and it just kind of hit me in a way it hadn't before: One of hellers' most fundamental disconnects with the show (and media literacy in general) is how they try to insist parallels establish romance.

SPN used parallels to couples and romantic tropes a lot in regards to the brothers. But it was never meant as a signal that they were romantically in love or to tell you something you otherwise couldn't figure out. It was to underline what we already knew from the entire rest of the story about how they were the most important people in each other's lives. It used romantic relationships because that's a central status typically reserved only for romantic relationships - that was part of the point.

Let's take an example or two. Dean compares himself and Sam to Jesse and Cesar from The Chitters. After interacting with them for a while, Dean is like, 'Haha, you fight just like brothers, almost as bad as Sam and me' and they say that it's more like an old married couple. This is Dean comparing an exact thing that actually happens between him and Sam, silly petty bickering, to something that exactly happens between a married couple. Likewise, let's take Dean's expression and the script note he's thinking about Sam's close call in Red Meat. Michelle is talking about watching the man she loves die and how nothing can be the same, and Dean is thinking about how he believed he lost Sam earlier that same episode and reacting to what she's saying. No one is under the impression that these are signposts telling you for the very first time that Sam and Dean are weirdly, claustrophobically close in a way that compares to romantic couples. They're quick moments which draw an underline on what you already know from the way they've acted towards each other for the entire preceding (and following) length of the show. If you cut either of those moments? It would change nothing about what we understand of Sam and Dean's relationship, because that's how using parallels in storytelling actually works.

Hellers want to insist that romantic couples and tropes being parallels to D/C in and of itself proves that D/C is romantic. Why else would SPN use couples and romantic tropes?!? Well, because SPN does that all the fucking time, maybe? Which is even before you get into how superficial the basis for their supposed parallels typically are.

Let's take an example or two. Hellers want to insist that Dean and Castiel were paralleled to David and Violet from Bloodlines because and I shit you not, one of them wore a tan coat. As well as the absurdly generic dialogue line, "I was there, where were you?" being used both in the backdoor pilot and in 6x20 by Dean. Aha! David and Violet are clearly stand-ins for Dean and Cas, and they were planning to run away together, so D/C is clearly romantic, BOOM! Except literally nothing about Dean and Castiel's actual relationship lines up with that. In no sense were Dean and Castiel ever planning to run away from their families together - not at the point where Dean was calling Castiel out for pretending he didn't know where Dean was if he really wanted advice or otherwise. Unlike the actual parallels with Sam and Dean, there is no underlying narrative base. Likewise, hellers want to insist that Castiel is Dean's Colette. Aha! Cain said Dean is living his life in reverse, and he killed Collette last and his brother first, so since he said Dean would kill Castiel before Sam, Castiel=Colette, and Colette was a romantic partner, so Dean lurves the angel! BOOM! Just for the sake of being pedantic, let's break this nonsense down one more time. Cain lists Crowley as well as Castiel as people Dean will kill before Sam. Collette was special to Cain because she saw everything he was, never gave up on him, and was able to get him to drop the blade. Which is literally what Sam does during the time Dean has the Mark - meanwhile Castiel tries to get Dean to not go and slaughter the Stynes and fails and is ready to give up and kill Dean after he goes demonic. Which doesn't even get into the part where ... Cain is literally just wrong in telling his little fairy tale. Dean is not him. When given the choice of killing his brother, Cain does it. When given the choice of losing control, Cain does it. Dean tries to get Death to shoot him into outer space and then kills Death rather than actually kill Sam. Dean and Dean's love for his brother are both far stronger than Cain is capable of understanding. So the parallel life thing? Is fundamentally hooey anyway. Again, there's no narrative there for a parallel to be drawing an underline on because none of their cobbled together meta resembles anything going on in the actual text. That's not how storytelling uses parallels or any other kind of subtext, by creating something entirely separate and expecting the general audience to decipher it. Though it's no surprise they try to insist that a show would do that, because they have nothing else.

TLDR; Their entire argument is that a comparison to a romantic couple makes two other characters' relationship automagically romantic because reasons. Which even putting aside the lack of validity in their parallels ... continues to be a boldly idiotic statement given the number of actually textual comparisons the show makes between Sam & Dean and romantic couples. Again, it's no wonder they freaked the fuck out over that forehead touch, because they very fundamentally refused to understand what SPN was actually doing on literally any level.

[ananke-xiii]

More on the power of resurrection as the "apple of discord": Chuck vs Billie.

In Chuck's mind Death is not a problem because he controls space and time... he's actually right. I mean, he's definitely shitting his pants at this point but he has never respected Death enough to be worried about her (and his narrative shows just that since Death dies four times in SPN lol).

Chuck manipulates space and time and he's clearly pro resurrection. In his world people can resurrect either through demon deals or magic. Or if he says so, obvs. There always seems to be a price to pay for this, though, because Chuck is obviously the type of god that likes human suffering "for the plot".

Amara in all her "evillness" has a different point of view on the matter, for her resurrection is a gift. Which is still problematic ("what you are regarding as a gift is a problem for you to solve") but offers a new perspective: no deal, no magic, you need it? You get it.

Then there's Jack whose command of the power is still wobbly but shows all the potential to disrupt Chuck's narrative. His take on resurrection is closer to Amara: he doesn't know it but it's his desire to see Dean getting what he wants that sparkled life back into Castiel. You want it? You get it. Dangerous.

Billie, on the other hand, is NOT part of Chuck's family, so to speak. She's very ambivalent about rules: she doesn't like it when others bend them but she really enjoys being the one who bends them. Her initial affiliation and perhaps romantic connection with Crowley while many reapers "sided" with Castiel in s9 tells us that she has her own specific ideas about basically everything.

When she becomes Death, she doesn't want humans performing resurrection spells because she wants to be the one who decides who lives and who dies, thus taking on a role that is not hers to take.

S14 shows us her hypocrisy brillantly: Dean wants to die but she says that he will live; Rowena wants Crowley back (to which she should have, perhaps, been amenable as per above) but she says NO. She hides herself behind the "death books" or whatever they're called and the "natural order" for whatever it means in SPN but Rowena calls her out: it isn't fair.

And she's right. Billie ignores Rowena, doesn't care about reapers dying (she even kills one herself) and only shows up because Rowena held Sam hostage and planned on killing him.

What Billie wants, though, is very much in tune with her role as Death: she wants things "as they were", heaven and hell, humans back on the "normal" timeline, "everything in its place and a place for everything" type of mentality. She wants something she can't have in a world where God, who controls time and space, keeps changing the plot.

A mentality that clearly contrasts with her s11 rebellious streak where she would have loved to toss a Winchester into the Empty, reap God and ultimately fucking harvest the Veil for souls! THAT girl had 99 problems but being conservative was not one of them.

So why does she change? Well, becoming Death would do that to a girl but I don't think that's it. I think she kinda likes it, to be honest.

No, my conclusion is based on what she can't stop repeating at least once per season: Castiel stabbed her in the back. Billie is holding a massive grudge that she very wrongly takes on Dean. Well, maybe not so "wrongly" per se since we know why Cas acts like he does, but when she blames Dean for being chaos incarnate and a disruptor of order she's sooo off target.

If there is one character who wants order and "everything in its place and a place for everything" is Dean Winchester.

No, there is one disruptor in SPN and it's Castiel. And HE stabbed her in the back.

And his resurrection (via Jack) is what should have tipped Chuck off (as I've been trying to demonstrate with all these yappings about cas and resurrection).

Basically Chuck's mortal enemy is Jack who bestows or revokes resurrections as he pleases. But he doesn't see him. Billie's mortal enemy is Castiel, creator of cosmic consequences that dismantle the coveted "balance". And she doesn't see him. Like snakes in the grass.

[shallowseeker]

It’s kind of a gross misstatement to say Cas was simply a bad friend during the season 6 arc. Dean was also a jackass. He refused to even listen that Cas had his own problems to contend with in heaven and just insulted him (Baby in a Trenchcoat) or took him for granted and prayed when he needed some angelic boost like the time travel. It was only after months of this that Dean finally had a half-ass “Hey Cas, if you need any assistance with your heavenly war, let us know”. Dean and Castiel are both equally at fault for the initial breakup.

I'm not sure why I'm getting this particular question, but yup, I agree that the situation was complex.

One of Dean's legendary coping mechanisms/neuroses is to get prickly and mean when the going gets tough, and I love to talk a lot with regards to both the fighting/hunting and the parenting of Jack Kline.

For Dean and Cas, they're both deliciously Going Through It (TM) in season 6 in different ways, Cas dealing with paranoia via the fallout of Heavenly betrayal and Dean with his complicated feelings of displacement into civilian life.

I sort of miss the days of TV when people got to screw up this badly with one another, but not in such a way that it’s bludgeoning, mean-spirited cynicism, hehe. (((For example, I struggle to think of a modern era of SPN where Bobby's frustration and worry over Dean would boil out in this horrifying way: "You sorry--you're not a person," when in actuality, he's desperately begging Dean not to die, and it's coming out all wrong. Or Dean's indirect forgiveness of Cas, that Cas picks up on immediately by tone alone: "Bottom of the ninth...I'd rather have you, cursed or not.")))

But if we're talking about season 6, Cas is controlling most of the means of communication from the get-go, and the power is definitely weighted in his favor. He sets the tone for it as soon as his big heart leads him to abruptly flit from the car to go and rescue Sam. BUT it's also no accident that Dean's narrative nickname for Cas is SUPERMAN. A perfect, invincible superhero. Dean took him for granted, hero-worshipped him, and conceptualized him as perfect... something Lily Sunder Has Some Regrets reflects back in an off-key manner: "I thought he was perfect...he was a monster (and hurt my child)." The truth with Dean and Cas is not either extreme, however. ("That nifty metaphor has holes:" Cas was trying to save Sam from the get-go, on multiple occasions.) It's the humanity that's in the middle.

It's lovely! And to me, it feels so real, too. Maybe someone else can chime in, but I don't have any huge, complicated feelings about this except that I really, really like the disillusionment period on both sides!

“We think that the point is to pass the test or to overcome the problem, but the truth is that things don’t really get solved. They come together and they fall apart. Then they come together again and fall apart again. It’s just like that. The healing comes from letting there be room for all of this to happen: room for grief, for relief, for misery, for joy.” - Pema Chödrön

Love isn't baggageless perfection. It's understanding, forgiveness, resilience.

DEAN (in the dream state, to MARY): I hate you. (Deans voice breaks as tears run down his face) I hate you. And I love you. 'Cause I can't – I can't help it. You're my Mom. And I understand...'cause I have made deals to save the ones I love more than once. (Mary continues to look away but seems to hear him) I forgive you. I forgive you. For all of it. Everything.

[charcubed]

Hi. I tend to forget that tumblr exists and just shout all my thoughts about The Winchesters on Twitter @CharCubed, which is a problem, but for once in my life I'm posting something here!

Here are some broad Thoughts on where I've landed of what this season 1 finale of The Winchesters offered–

• I very much want season 2 of this show SO badly. I want to see how they all continue to build their lives now that we know tragedy need not be their end! THIS IS THE HEALING SHOW. That whole cast gets to write their own story... "the only thing that's worse than how it starts for a hunter is how it ends" is no longer the case, as Carlos already said... and Dean helped to free them? That fucks.

• In regards to those possibilities: now that Dean would no longer be framing the prequel as a story he's telling, it frees the prequel up to no longer be doubling as Dean's story through revealing mirroring–which is very much what it's been doing for 12 episodes. Now the monster plots and the storylines for those characters in The Winchesters can also be diversified, so every episode no longer has to include, for example... [checks notes] a situation where a character is literally and/or metaphorically trapped and has to confront their trauma, break cycles of violence, and speak truths to be freed. It's been very Loud and very much Like This Constantly because it's Dean's story, but now it won't have to be anymore, which is an interesting thing to contemplate! (To be clear, for those unaware of my history of yelling about this show: I love that it was Like This. This show is fucking genius.)

• Initially, this finale had some alarm bells pinging in my brain but then I parsed the Reasons for those things. Mary told John she had "Something to say," right? And then she never says it. That's a Chekhov's gun that's never fired and it's of course paralleling how Dean has "something to say" to Cas too. Them not speaking that truth is a problem. In addition, we also got a montage eerily akin to the 15x19 one. But these callbacks / parallels to s15 all loudly indicate something very specific: The Winchesters is an unfinished story, and this finale (like the rest of this show) is mirroring and revealing truths about the prime narrative of SPN. For one thing, with the prequel they originally expected to have 22 or so episodes and ended up having 13 to work with. For another... this is the START of their story, not the end. So along those lines, what can we deduce about the end of season 15? (Hint: that finale is not an ending either.)

• Speaking of which: We learn that everything Dean was just doing takes place in the ~heavenly~ time period before Sam “dies." This all functionally happened right after Dean died as he drove down that road. He is restless, unmoored, grieving, and–this is key–considers his "ending" to be an unhappy happy one. He's fucking around and finding out, looking for and unpacking (through his narration) what he needs and wants for HIS happy ending to look like. He found out about the Akrida being a failsafe from Chuck and couldn't resist meddling to save everyone. It's also worth noting that Dean says to Jack something like, "If you have to kick me out of Heaven then that's fine." Between the lines is the thought of "please kick me out of Heaven, I'm causing problems because I'm grieving and I'm not done, I don't want this 'peace' but would rather have freedom." That in itself is a massive subversion of the SPN finale, to say nothing of the previous 12 episodes we've received.

Anyway. So in terms of Dean's story, we now know that this all takes place smack in the middle of 15x20 timeline-wise. This checks out because Bobby's presence connects to him being the only one we saw in 15x20. And... what I personally consider to be Jack's incredibly fucked up or ~potentially taken over by Chuck~ vibes are, in that sense, consistent with 15x19 as well. (I'm so sorry but please let me drop this cursed "Alex Calvert playing Chuck" joke by Jensen from August 2022 which haunts me.)

So: nothing about the concept that @chuckwon at the end of season 15 has been confirmed or denied in canon at this point. The idea that Chuck LOST, as Dean says here, is simply what Dean may still be thinking (which makes sense). But nothing has fundamentally changed about the state of how season 15 left things in the prime narrative yet... largely because that's not what this story is / was about.

In terms of what this finale presented to us, I think "Chuck won" potential was all deliberately left open. And I continue to Call Bullshit on the finale accordingly. A Chuck won plot line COULD be used in a future sequel to great affect, or it could NOT be used in a future sequel. That will be totally up to the future authors / team behind that potential sequel to see what story they choose to tell, and where it all may or may not go. But until then (on that front) right now it's the same shit, different show, and deliberately literally nothing about that potential has changed.

• I LOVE all of the above now that I've parsed it all in my brain. It makes perfect sense. Much like we were never going see the gay angel pop up in this show and kiss Dean (with apologies to anyone who somehow thought otherwise?)... leaving other things open like this is fantastic and the objectively correct call. Dean's story is HIS story to be furthered elsewhere, whereas this show belonged and continues to belong to its cast of characters who must take center stage. But through this story within a story narrated by Dean himself, we learned a hell of a lot about his state of mind as it actively stands in 15x20. Or more accurately: the entire show reinforces and reiterates comprehensively and repeatedly that the SPN finale was wrong and bad and not the end of the story at all, and now canonically and openly and in no uncertain terms that that's how Dean feels too.

• AND THUS: season 1 of The Winchesters works as deeply clever and layered commentary on Supernatural's ending and presents the stepping stone for a sequel continuation for Dean and his family. It's also the beginning of a new chapter with endless potential for The Winchesters' cast of characters who are not tied to fate or main timeline.

I fucking love it here.

Truly, madly, deeply: ALL HAIL ROBBIE THOMPSON.

And seriously, I really hope we get a season 2 because I adore all of the prequel's characters on their own merit and I want to see what their story can become :')

[shanastoryteller]

I've been watching your progress updates and getting chapter update emails from archive so im starting to get curious about the your spn fic, but im very green in regards to spn itself (i think i only watched the first 10/11 eps of ssn 1 before stopping). would you say a reader needs to know spn context before reading or is it relatively friendly to readers like me?

I know there are several people who are reading it who haven't seen supernatural and are enjoying it, so i'd say it's pretty newbie friendly! but anyone feel free to correct me or add your two cents

[dontwanttochoose]

Reddit struggles to get their posts to anything above like 200 upvotes. That is a very small faction of the fandom. I’d hardly use that to win your argument. That’s why i keep bringing up twitter and tiktok, hell even tumblr. Where destiel trends on the daily.

That’s just the extent of it. You can’t argue facts. No one cares about anything other than Destiel on a large scale regarding the show now that it’s over. Destiel is the only thing that holds any relevance.

Anyways. I just send you anons because i like to, seeing that you’re a blog who runs an anti-account that can’t even get a note on a post. Whereas i can get thousands of likes and comments on a destiel post wherever i go. It’s fun on my side, lots of interaction and people to talk to. Celebrities who ship it. Rob and Rich talking about it on their podcast. Oof. I’m living the high life.

Also, Jared just said this last con that there’s no confirmed role on the boys yet, just that he wants to be in it. And he’ll never be as big as Soldier Boy, which is gonna be really embarrassing for him, because everyone is gonna see how bad an actor he is compared to Jensen. Huffing and puffing his way to that cbs role while Jensen continues to become an a-lister lol.

Look anon, I understood yesterday that you love me, but I'm sorry I don't date through social. 😞

Maybe in another moment of our lives destiny will bring us together....

But I'm sorry... Jensen an A-lister actor? Jack Nicholson, Marlon Brando, Clint Eastwood, Al Pacino, Robert De Niro... these are true A-lister actors... Jared and Jensen are at best C-lister. And also Jared was Dean in Girlmore Girls that's why he is popular outside the world of SPN.

I have 10 friends of my age who watch or have watched SPN, you know how many of them have tumblr or ships Destiel? Zero, they don't even know the ship, I think you forget that we are 8 billion in this world.

Well Jared is constantly huffing and puffing while Jensen is always talking with his Batman Voice and doing the model face. Sometimes he really looks like Derek Zoolander.

Are you really a fan of Jensen? I don't understand why you still insist with Destiel. You can like the non-canon ship but why are you trying to force it. You are saying the OG Wonder Woman ships it, Rich and Rob (I don't know why you care about the extras), while Jensen said that is never going to be true. It's like a person likes you but you hate them, and all you friend are insisting that you hang out with them even if you don't like it.

Rob and Rich do this because they are unemployed and need some fans for the podcast because is not doing well. It's all marketing, and you are not capable of see it.

Try to get out of the destiel bubble and apply what is happening, simplifying, to yourself.

With love to my first and best fan 😘

[riverstixxelf]

I love the SPN fandom but honestly it’s so stressful sometimes 😭

For example earlier today I googled “Misha Collins girlfriend” because I heard a rumor that he has a girlfriend, I couldn’t find much besides stuff talking about Vicky so I scrolled down and saw a tumblr post saying something about Misha being attracted to men (which I don’t necessarily disagree with, but I don’t want to tell another person what they are) and women so I clicked on it and it was a huge post (like, a couple paragraphs) talking about some strange things. I don’t remember exactly but at one point the user brought up the “fact” that Misha makes jokes about women and sex?? As in making jokes at the expense of women… and I was like… are we talking about the same Misha here? He DOES make jokes about sex but I don’t recall him ever making jokes at the expense of women. Only thing I can think of is that one story about one of his earlier acting jobs and he didn’t know the “no tongue rule” but that was mostly at the expense of himself. Then I scrolled and found another post that was pretty disturbing…

Someone had screenshotted a regular instagram caption that Jensen posted just talking about how he just got done traveling, he wanted to take a nap, something like that—nothing sexual about the post at all or anything that would suggest that—and someone captioned it with something talking about him and Misha rubbing their [babymakers] together??? I audibly laughed out loud because wtf 😭😭

I don’t want to shame Jenmish shippers (I say Jenmish because Cockles is just a… very interesting name), even though I think it’s the slightest bit strange to be shipping real people… but again I never want to put anyone down for anything because I myself have said some stuff about Jensen and Misha that might suggest something between them.

Another thing is just the amount of hate for various cast members. Mostly the hate I see is for Jared and Misha; J2 fans who hate Misha, Jenmish fans who hate Jared, etc. There’s a lot of love in this fandom but ohmygOD there’s so much hate too. I guess that’s true for any fandom, but it’s so tiring sometimes.

Also, in this fandom, you’ll get hounded for any opinion you have. If you don’t like destiel, you’re homophobic. If you do like destiel, you’re also homophobic for some reason because queer bating or whatever… for the record i’d like to state that I am a proud destiel shipper just fyi. But I see so many people take it to the extreme, make little things into big things or something along those lines. Same thing with cockles shippers I was talking about earlier. I feel like I have a pretty neutral viewpoint on stuff regarding destiel; I see most things how they are, and I make my assumptions based on CANON things. I don’t say “Dean and Cas are definitely fucking”, I say “Dean and Cas love eachother but they cant express it, because Cas wasn’t even sure what love was and Dean’s highest ideal of love is family, which is why he says Cas is like a brother to him”. Now, if you don’t agree with me, guess what… that’s okay! If you don’t think destiel exists, that’s a valid point, and i’m not gonna dox you just because you have a different opinion than me. Because that’s just it, it’s an OPINION.

I could get into Sam haters and Dean haters and stuff… but I’m tired. Actually, you know what, screw it. I WILL GET INTO IT!!!

I’ve had a few experiences with Dean haters especially, and most of the time they just ADORE Sam and thinks he’s done nothing wrong. Let me clarify that I don’t hate Sam- like- at all. Then again, Dean haters who happen to be Sam stans have warped my view on Sam a little, but I won’t let that get in my way of honest judgment.

Sam. has. done. bad. stuff. DEAN. has. done. bad. stuff. Please don’t compare their trauma, they both have their own issues, one isn’t better than the other.

I might be biased because I relate to Dean so much (like a crazy amount it’s not even funny…), but for the millionth time in a row I DO NOT HATE SAM. I saw someone saying how Dean was the cause of almost every single world-ending event that happened in SPN… like honey no. Another person replied to their comment listing all of the world-ending events… and guess what… Sam was the cause of most of them!! Does that make him a hate-worthy character? No!!

I don’t know what point i’m trying to make here. I just think there’s so much in-fighting within the SPN fandom and as much as I love being in the fandom sometimes you just gotta have a break from all the drama. If you made it this far… go outside or something don’t pay attention to me i’m chronically online.

[themoodyestj]

who do know having an anti tag is showing hate towards a person right? if you want to critisie by all means critises but spreading hate and having tags such as anti misha or anti jensen (don't lie, i know you use that tag) is psreading hate and that is toxic. Funny thing you say you love Jensen but twist his words, or completly ingore what he says to fit your own aganda.

You know, Anon, no joke or sarcasm here, this is actually something I have been giving a lot of thought about.

The truth is, no matter how much I dispise ones actions, I dont truly hate them. I have no reason to personally hate Misha or Danneel, I just find their actions despising. But hate, as it would affect my personal life? I really don't. They don't matter much, anyway. Where I come from only SPN fans know who Misha is, and Danneel? You have to be a hardcore fan to even recognize the name.

Very small fish indeed.

If anything, Im more anti the fans that fave these people and act like obnoxious entitled jerks and make it a hobby harrassing other people in their blogs. These are what Im actually anti about.

And I never used an anti-jensen tag, not that I can remember. Probably you're mistaking me with one of my mutuals, and as hard as it may be for you to believe, I'm not one of them.

Anyway, maybe you're right. The anti tag may not suit me, although its handy, because it's used often. It's also easier for people who dont want to read my blog to block. I have never inforced my opinion on others. There are other blogs for that. So maybe ill focus on the tags "anti fanaticism", "anti delulus" (this one coined specifically for the most agressive asks) and adress the tags regarding Misha and Danneel with something else. I just dont know what yet. I'm open to suggestions.

PS: See how I was respectful to you in my answer? I always am if people are respectful to me. I will never judge anyone by who they fave, I judge them by their actions. You are welcome to come in my inbox and discuss things with me. Thats why I say I'm probably not anti Misha, not to the extent of bullying others for their fave. Im anti fanatics.