#i mean im afab transmasc not transfem but still

[wheredidthepeepeego-mp3]

sorry if i've been posting so much about da girlies but like. I've just unpacked a lot of internalized misogyny and transphobia and homophobia and like. god i feel so free being able to say i'm both nb and butch and a guy and just a dude. but i'm also a woman and a female and a girl and a lady and a gentleman. i love women and i am woman and there is something so very freeing in saying that. i want to collect all the women and enbies and newly-formed women and intersex women and former women and old crones and teen girls and fat women and skinny women just wear whatever we want and make our own choices and wear frilly dresses and plain blue suits or be covered all the way or wear nothing at all or tube tops and thongs and hold hands and spin around in circles. Genderfucking is so cool queerness is so cool genderqueerness is so cool getting to do whatever you want as a women as long as it is kind (shooting with laser eyes and violence and using very tall swords and shoplifting and throwing bricks counts as kindness) is so cool. women are cool. queer people are cool. queer women are the greatest invention of nature and it makes me sad inside when they hate each other. if we are or have ever been a woman in any capacity we all must hold hands and spin around in circles and cry and laugh and eat hamburgers or veggieburgers or french fries or salad or icecreams or clovers off the ground and scream at people and throw things and then take a nap. and we will not hate each other or fight each other because then the real fight won't be fought.

[maxknightley]

confession: i still don't understand what tme/tma js and i dont understand the google definitions because im kinda dumb, so i dont understand the arguments ): i feel like its too late to ask. it means transmysongony exempt right? i just. i dont get what that meabs!!

broadly speaking, TMA - or "transmisogyny affected" - means "amab transgender and nonbinary people." i.e., people who are the "intended target" of transmisogyny in the same way that Jewish people are targeted by antisemitism or gay people writ large are targeted by homophobia.

TME - "transmisogyny exempt" - is basically Everyone Else, including cis people as well as AFAB trans/nonbinary people.

the idea of the construction is to describe the ways in which transfems are harmed by cis people & "TME" trans people as well. but I have a few problems with this language:

I think it's absurd to describe cis men as "exempt from transmisogyny" because a major purpose of transmisogyny is to socially discipline GNC cis boys and men. as a thought exercise, I like to point out that I could have had the exact same experiences as a child/teenager, but if I hadn't transitioned, I would have magically ceased to be "affected by transmisogyny". I think this is Fucking Stupid because a large part of my childhood was defined by transmisogyny I didn't even know was transmisogyny yet.

we already had perfectly good language for what "tma" is intended to represent. namely, transfem. idiots and jerks misusing that language, describing themselves as "afab transfem" or whatever the hell, doesn't matter to me when 1. people are going to play silly little word games with literally any terminology marginalized people use to describe our experiences, and 2. the replacement terminology is actively worse at describing things.

whenever people use "TME" they're usually referring specifically to other people in the trans community, making it a transparent - and, imo, Worse - replacement for "afab." just say "afab" or "transmasc." let's be honest with ourselves.

while I think the ability to describe transmisogyny is necessary in order to express what it's like to be transfem, I feel that people often treat transmisogyny as if it's a separate construct that happens to intersect with other forms of transphobia and sexism. and I think this is silly, because transmisogyny is sexism is homophobia. they're all parts of a self-reinforcing structure and cannot be properly understood until we accept that you don't slay the hydra by continually cutting off its heads

I'm an extremely spiteful person. Every time I see a post that's based on the idea that Everyone Who Dislikes This Is Transmasc, or that Transgender Women Aren't "Allowed" To Be Butch And Therefore Don't Exist At All, my anger gauge fills up a little more. someday it will hit its maximum and I will be able to unleash my ultimate. that or I'll have a stress-induced heart attack

[tirfpikachu]

as someone who has a complete distrust of anyone who labels themselves as radfems since they seem to be (at least a loud minority on every platform) straight up right-wing and racist, thank you for reminding me that some of yall are sane and normal. i don't consider myself a radical feminist by any means and i still dont want to touch the radfem community w a 10ft pole (im a transmasc lesbian of colour... i just cant trust it) but its cool to know theres some people who are normal over there. rock on

THAT MEANS THE WORLD TO MEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!! I RARELY GET SUPPORT FROM YOUR SIDE OF THE TUNGLR BORDER SO I TRULY REALLY APPRECIATE IT 🙏 this made me smile so much!

i really am trying very hard to build my lil corner of radblr and encourage nuance, as well as fighting bigotry and tradwife type shit within radfem spaces! i'm trying to make people realize that all marginalized folks can learn to be better allies to one another, while still acknowledging afab/female-specific oppression & celebrating all kinds of gayness, including exclusive same-sex (agab) attraction; aka what's traditionally been called homosexuality. i want to welcome everyone who directly faces or has faced misogyny irl into complex feminist discussions in good faith without aggression, without slurs or unnecessary personal attacks. i want radfem/nuancefem talks to involve terms like male/female as purely sex-based terms like amab/afab, and for trans men to not be any less of a man in society just bc they're female, and ofc for trans women to be as much my sisters as any cis/bio woman so long as they still recognize their male/amab upbringing, and show equal respect to me & my specific struggles as a female person. i have had incredible talks with all kinds of folks in my server! from transmasc radfems to the most wonderful transfem allies, and some folks who add intersex/DSD nuance to our conversations. i don't believe in misgendering, slurs, or anything of the sort to do anything other than harm ppl who struggle with a very debilitating disorder, dysphoria, one that i struggled with for years and years. that's not the way to help anyone! we do still need more open talks about detransition, and plans on how to prevent even more detransitioners, since there really is a higher number of detrans cases than ever before. people who now, like me, struggle with reverse dysphoria and often need expensive procedures. i also want us to talk about transfem experiences, and just gnc male experiences in general, not just to offer support but also learn more about the intricacies of the patriarchy which is essential for my specific brand of radical feminism. i've nicknamed it as tirfism, or me being a nuancefem - a feminist who is against the way mainstream feminism & qweer activism is currently handling female-specific and homosexual issues, and aims to foster nuance on complex topics!

there are more of us than you'd ever imagine, and we're finally managing to find eachother. i highly recommend reading through @pokegyns for more nuanced takes from my lovely server friends. i believe trans voices are essential to nuancefeminism and tirfism, and i'm very blessed to have lovely transmasc & transfem mods on my server. they provide fascinating insights that we really need right now. it's also very comforting to know that there are nuanced trans people in the modern world... sometimes it feels like the lgbt community is completely close-minded to discussions of female-specific oppression and homosexuality. but that actually isn't the case! i think there's a lot of discomfort going around feminist & lgbtq communities, and it's reaching the boiling point. so long as people like you anon are out there willing to research and learn more about non-transphobic, anti-conservative radical feminism and dispell myths about us, i know we will be alright in the end and a bridge between all the marginalized communities is still possible in the near future if we keep working on it. thank you so much for reaching out!!

[unlimitedbutchworks]

Apologies I phrased that very poorly, transfem/otherwise AMAB (not all AMAB nonbinary/genderqueer people identify as transfeminine which is why i use agab, but TMA would be more appropriate!) GQ experiences are different enough from AFAB (etc etc) or TME transgender ones to classify them as different things? Lumping both together under “transgender” widens the experience the term captures. the experience of transmisogyny is 90% of transphobia, I don’t believe transmascs face any systemic discrimination aside from reactive misogyny before passing, and most have extremely different experiences from transfems: Are they similar enough to be recognized as transgender in the same way? Or would another term be more appropriate. Something I’ve been thinking on for a while

ahh, i see, thanks for elaborating. while i get your meaning, i would disagree. i think its certainly true that trans experiences range pretty broadly across the spectrum and that transmisogyny is really extreme and probably the most numerous example of transphobia, but im not sure id go so far to say that it is wholly representative of transphobia; although id get pretty close, a lot of transphobia and bias is influenced heavily by transmisogyny or other generalized fear of transfemininity/failed masculinity, like a lot lot.

moreover, i worry that this kind of analysis could lead to overfocusing on some aspects of gender, and losing sight of other vital key parts to how gender is actively lived and enforced (such as class, race, culture, whole milieu). i also want to push back a bit on the "transmascs dont face systemic discrimination" because i just think its too black and white since they definitely do (not mentioning other axes of oppression here, though you should when thinking this out because systemic discriminations interact in many ways with transness), just sometimes less or in different ways than transfems/tma folks. as an example, trans women have been observed on avg to be paid 60% less than the avg worker (horrendous), trans men arent much above that being observed at 70% (referencing this). sure the gap sucks and is evidence of the privilege that comes with not being tma, but they’re also still getting screwed, right? i also dont think we need to chalk these issues they face up to misogyny imo, i think its more accurate to describe it as transphobia as its denying their worth based on their divergent gender

tl;dr, while this feels a little baity, transmascs are definitely also discriminated against and while they can (and do) perform terrible transmisogyny to transfems and completely not understand their transphobia due to their own unique trans situation (many such cases), as a whole we have more in common with each other than against each other, most importantly the value of trans liberation and a cuter future where gender isnt so big of a deal. but to be clear if you're a snake about trans women and fail again and again to confront and learn from your transmisogynistic biases, you are poisoning the well by spreading such ideas in the community

[soaplantro]

(i was gonna comment this on your exorsexism post but the comment got too long lol)

i think the word itself hasn't caught on much yet but i do genuinely believe that it's a real form of oppression separate from transmisogyny, like there's a very clear difference between how you're treated if you're a trans woman vs a transfem non-binary person (and same goes for trans man vs transmasc non-binary person)

and like, there's also a very clear difference between how you're treated if you're a cis woman vs a non-transmasc non-binary person who was afab (idk the best way to word this, but hopefully you get what i mean)

on top of that, there's definitely a difference between how you're treated if you're a non-transmasc non-binary person who was afab vs a transfem non-binary person, that's the difference between being tme and tma

so when you experience both transmisogyny and exorsexism it may be hard to separate them both, but society does place transfem enbies (at least slightly) below trans women, like how society places non-transmasc enbies afab below cis women (while not putting them in the same category as trans men)

think about how like, many transfems have to hide the "non-binary" parts of themselves just to be taken seriously by society, many enbies have to basically misgender themselves in places like healthcare just to get stuff like hrt and surgeries, and there have been so many cases of medical professionals denying (openly) non-binary people care because they basically admit that they straight up just don't treat non-binary trans people (while still accepting and treating binary trans people)

and many binary trans people do actually weaponise the little privilege they have against non-binary trans people, like with the whole "i'm a normal trans, not like those they/thems" thing that certain trans people love to pull, and even cis people admit this "i accept trans people as long as they fit into my image of what a perfect trans person is like" which almost never includes non-binary people ever

and there's just the fact that "non-binary" just doesn't even exist in most people's heads, people only ever use "they" when they want to degender you, but the moment your pronounds are actually they/them they'll either always misgender you as he/him or she/her, and if you're transfem and you don't use she/her at all, people will just use that as an excuse to call you he/him instead (when they're perfectly fine not using he/him for binary trans women, this is something i've seen happen myself) or just use she/her and make you feel guilty for being uncomfortable with it (this is something all enbies who are misgendered as she/her experience, but if you're tma it's definitely worse)

in fact, even if you align more with womanhood while still being non-binary (and using she/they or they/she for example) you can experience this.. i knew a transfem who used she/they pronounds but only ever said her pronounds are she/her to certain people because (in their exact words):

"i relate more to demigirls than cis women but tell that to cis people when talking about being transgender they just load the ammo you give them"

and also:

"im she/they and have been a demigirl forever, but a lot of times my cis girl friends will make uncomfortable overly binary comments about my body" "and I don't say anything because they're seeing me as a girl but it's uncomfortable"

i think that's a perfect example of what it's like to experience both transmisogyny and exorsexism at the same time.. society places such strict standards of femininity on tma people that even showing a hint of being non-binary is frowned upon, this is something non-binary people who were afab experience too, but being tma makes it worse!

that isn't to say that binary trans people aren't hurt by this at all, these strict standards of femininity also hurt trans women, but the way it targets and isolates transfem enbies specifically (and forces them into the closet in places where trans women can be open about their gender) makes it exorsexist too, at least imo it does

Interesting! Thanks for your input.

[kamaradka]

this might sound petty and bitter but i wish trans women or tma ppl or whatever were afforded the complexity and contradiction in their identity/the language we use to describe ourselves that transmasc butches are. like i dont take that shit for granted

i would say i am NOT transfem: because im not fem, or femme. i know so many trans women/transfems who have their own right to views of identity and personal allegiance to terms, but with ALL of them i have felt the need to explain this. to explain myself and my relationship with masculinity/butchness in ways that feel so similar to the relationships to gender that sm of my friends who identify as transmasc butches, nonbinary (afab) lesbians, or "my gender is dyke"s have.

i still get called a transfem as a lump-together term. i dont feel any allegiance to femininity. through my actions, body, and the way i speak and present myself, i find relevance and belonging in both womanhood and gay masculinity. the fact that "trans butch" doesnt mean someone like me, and that it doesn't bring the idea of someone like me to mind for most ppl in ~the community~ makes me wonder how complex and nuanced trans women's experiences are allowed to be— for our narratives to be accepted in spaces already too often made without us in mind.

[amethsys]

i am so sorry to bother you, I know it's not your job to explain your identity/identities to anyone, but I'm having a hard time finding explanations of what afab transfem/amab transmasc perisex identities are? I still support even though I don't understand obviously, but I'm just confused and having a hard time finding explanations in tags and stuff. hope you have a nice day (genuinely. I know that I come off as passive aggressive a lot and I swear I don't mean to)

this is a wonderful question! so at least for my experience it is sort of like I'm trans in a feminine way like if anyone were to call me feminine it would be misgendering unless they acknowledged that I'm trans about it? also its kind of like. i sort of socially transitioned like from female socially to non binary and then to demigirl and then to demiboy and then to genderfluid and its just a whole mess my identity is a mess its like um

a girl in a trans way but also not a girl at all but also just trans but also its kind of strange like i. have felt this sort of desire to be an amab transfem and i wasnt sure what that was for a while and i still am not entirely sure what I'm doing but its

so i saw transfems on tumblr talking about comfortability in femininity and transness- and wait i might be explaining this poorly and theres also like a carrd for this i think one second https://afab-transfem.carrd.co/

its sort of like

im multigender and all the genders are in a transgender way????? this doesnt make any sense does it...

[taoistyuri]

there has to be some sort of better words instead of transmasc/transfem cuz everyone changes the definition every day

for transmasc at least

its 'afab people who are trans men in some type of way' one day and then its 'anyone transitioning to be more masculine' (what do you mean by this? to what extent do you mean this?) the next and then after saying that its 'transmascs arent women' (despite the previous definitions including women, whether those who are 'transitioning to be more masculine' or if you are multiple genders) and then its... and so on! it keeps changing every day

it feels like its becoming male/female/nonbinary now its transmasc/transfem new binary and its annoying as fuck, i kind of hate the word transmasc... just because like i said it feels like a new binary people are making

also doesnt help that, again like i said the way people are using transmasc to describe seems to change every second - but people are always stereotyping as a group term - and its like, i am not you, i dont want to be shoved under this label for the sake of a 'relatable' 'meme', i dont like it, overall also just seems to heighten the not-so-secret afab vs amab divide in the nonbinary community, regardless of how much u wanna deny it or being aknowledged of being afab theres still a lot of transphobia and transmisogyny from us against ppl who were amab that is like still a whole lot

(well, the last bit can also go into general cissexism assumptions...)

idk i just. well i dont want people to assume things about me or how i identify, basically??? i dont like it! im not a part of your new version of boxing people ....

im nonbinary and i use several other labels sometimes for more specific gender feels rarely. but i feel like this happens -> nonbinary and goes by a 'masculine' name, must be -> transmasc/? no, no, and dont assume things about me yadont know ok!

[pixeljade]

Okay i've tried like 20 times to word this in a way that'll go as gently as possible but I dont think im gonna be 100% successful bc autism, so im just gonna post this and hope yall dont take it in bad faith:

Theres a lot of younger queers (especially AFAB ones) who still hold TERF ideology and the main reason I see them failing to let it go is because they cant embrace sex positivity.

Which like. I kinda get. I mean if I was AFAB and I grew up with creepy toxic masculine dudes constantly sexualizing me while i was still a child, and the pressures of family to reproduce, and all that shit that comes with being AFAB, i'd probably be scared as shit of sex. Heck I'm a *little* scared of it myself since I was sexually assaulted twice before I was 18! But I feel like thats something to fight against, because like...sex is healthy! Sex is good! Sex is the cause of literally all of our lives!!!!

And I'm not saying you have to have sex or anything, god no, I'm on the ace spectrum. I'm saying you have to be normal about sex, because sex is a part of life! Its ESPECIALLY a part of the queer community! And as much as it should be more welcoming to ace people, I also think demanding it be entirely chaste in order to welcome ace people is stupid and selfish and unhealthy.

"So whats this have to do with TERF ideology though?" Well, reader, I'm glad you asked, because "sex is scary" is the first step in the TERF ideology road! It usually goes "sex is scary" -> "men are scary" -> "anything with a penis is scary". And basically every queer person, at least on the surface, is against this. But under the surface, I find it all falls apart, especially amongst AFAB people. AMAB queers are expected to perform femininity to fit in, and almost always if it is the sort of space where femininity is scrutinized, it is expected that the feminine must also be chaste. I feel like thats no accident. It feels like any mention of sexuality from an AMAB person has them thinking about how we have a penis, such a lewd horrible thing, and then its like...instantly we become less womanly to them. They've let their fear tie femininity to a lack of sexuality, which is a TERF idea!

This also is what leads to more censorship of transfem people. As the recent bannings of transfem people on this site continue, I see a lot of posts saying stuff like "You wouldnt have this problem if youd just stop posting sexual content", even being reblogged by supposed allies.

And you might be thinking "well I'm AFAB but I'm trans, so, this doesnt apply to me. Theyre talking about actual TERFs!" And no, you're wrong. I see transmasc people who pull this shit ALL THE TIME. I recently had a transmasc friend cringe and tell me that the fact that I liked Asumi-chan Is Interested In Lesbian Brothels was a red flag because it was "clearly for the male gaze" which is absolutely TERF behavior. I also see a lot of transmasc people being dismissive of transfem fears in the current trans political situation. Its seemingly almost always a specific brand of UwU cottagecore transmasc that does it too, and a few of them I've even caught admitting they "used to be a TERF" which, I'm glad you no longer associate with them, but I'm telling you you still have shit to unlearn. Dont tell me this is out of my lane, either, its no different from if someone pointed out I still had toxic masculinity to unlearn! Which has happened, and I've examined mine. Why do you find it so unreasonable to examine yours?

Anyways thats all for now. Please do better. I shouldnt have to deal with this shit while the government is trying to kill me.

[queer-queries]

context: ive seen transfeminine defined as being trans + being feminine. would it be weird for me to use transfeminine (as an afab) since i still present femininely but also am not female? (im agender and tend to consider myself transnull)

hey anon! so transfem and transmasc largely mean (respectively) transitioning towards femininity, and transitioning towards masculinity. now, the wider trans community (at least online) tends to still, unfortunately, have a very binary view of what that means. the larger perception of those terms among the trans community is that transfem refers to people who were AMAB but are trans and whose gender is feminine. and the parallel is true for transmasc.

and it's perfectly fine that a majority of people use those labels in that way. but, as is the case with any queer terminology, not everyone will fit as neatly into the common perception of a term's definition. some people who were AFAB still have to "transition" towards femininity for various reasons. while i don't personally identify as transfem, it's an experience i resonate with because femininity was pretty denied from me growing up as an autistic girl who couldn't stand makeup or "girly" clothes from a sensory perspective. i consider myself trans and feminine, and while i don't personally id as transfem, some people use transfem to mean just trans + feminine for themselves.

i've definitely seen people say that this is "appropriative" of transfems who were AMAB. but, while there absolutely are culturally-exclusive terms that exist, many queer labels are not a culture to be appropriated- they are open and adaptable. labels can be used with a certain intent and meaning but still resonate with people for differing reasons. by and large, queer terms don't "belong" to anyone. you resonating with the label 'transfem' in a reason different to an AMAB transfem person's, is not reflective on THEIR validity.

so the trans community largely views there being only ONE way to transition towards femininity (being AMAB) and while that may hold true for many people, it doesn't for everyone. and you don't deserve to be pushed away from a label or experience just because your identity is more unique.

labels, like any word, can mean more than one thing. if you were afab but are trans and still feminine, and therefore you resonate with the label transfem, then that doesn't mean suddenly AMAB transfems are "cancelled out" or invalidated by your usage of the term. there are as many ways to be trans as there are trans people. you're not identifying as anything with malicious intent, you're not trying to be some horrible transmisogynistic asshole, you're just simply trying out the terms that feel right, and there's nothing wrong with that!

[ghostcrows]

i know ive made like seventy goddam posts about it...but i have still been ruminating like a mother fucker about like...trans gender issues

as you do

i want to listen to trans women right i dont want to be transmisogynistic and i keep on seeing that there are trans guys who are out of their minds high on terf fumes (whether they realize it or not), although ive known that already bc theres always been trans guys who want...whatever they think they get out of clinging to gender essentialism and the remnants of their claims to womanhood. radfem pussy from a female born womyn that hates you i guess

i also do want people to not brush aside transmasc issues as like, not real, or saying well you're a man arent you, so like, shut up and go get that privilege, that conditional privilege, that highly situational privilege, that goes away in dire straits situations such as um, medical environments....or to like treat us with disdain, or as a joke, which is what i see much more often than pure vitriol (its just like, funny to people to be a trans guy. a little too funny too often)

but we also have to recognize that many of the things we go through closely mirror transfem experiences - even if not all of them do, a lot of them do, and we aren't the sole understanders of trans oppression or misogynistic oppression, thats kind of like, the point right. it is not an inherently ~afab~ burden

i think its fair to want a word that doesnt step on anybodys toes that accurately describes our unique experiences with being treated poorly instead of vaguely gesturing to transphobia in a broad sense- we have consistently failed to find this ... theres a point i keep seeing that i agree with that we shouldnt scrutinize transfems who dont use absolutely perfect language to describe their experiences, i think that should probably also be true for transmascs, but we also do keep choosing like absolutely dogshit terms so...idk? the only one ive seen thats any good is "anti transmasculinity" ive also seen transandrosmia(sp?) but i dont know what that means and it seems to be just trying to replace the root words in transandrophobia/transmisandry. which to be fair was the main hangup because of the implications, to my understanding, but ...im not sure about it

i also see a lot of accusations towards either group that we "just see each other as our agab" which is like, in my opinion, true in the sense that everyone has ingrained transphobic beliefs from living in a deeply transphobic world, and you have to unlearn both the internalized forms and the externalized forms...you have to choose every day to continue to unlearn that stuff, catch yourself. even if you think youve done all the work i mean, no one ever truly has - but also like. so much of this stems from pure insecurity. not only "no one sees me as i am" but also "the 'other' gender has it better in some way" being very mch a thing trans people are inclined to feeling, even after they transition i dont think that always goes away, thats why you see like, someone saying "i hate my agab body" and someone else goes "ugh i WISH i had your body id be so lucky to have your body". absolute last thing that person probably wants to hear but you sometimes feel it anyway

and then like, at the end of the day, i dont feel like any of the ppl leading this current "crusade" are actually people who have a full picture...and i dont think i do either, like, so much of this is online for me, i have to wonder what other people are going through. i overall wish i knew more trans people in real life, i definitely wish i had more transfem friends irl, i know a handful of transmascs irl and that was a freak accident bc we all went to school together. if not for that i'd know basically no one trans near me. tho i have seen more people in public more often but i never say anything cuz im scared -_-

yeah....dk how to end this post. well bye

[feminisedlad]

im gonna be real i do think gender labels should be meaningless, including our own. if some dykey transfem wants to call herself 'transmasc' bc she thinks its funny i simply dont care. it does mean all the testosterone femboys will start using 'transfem' but i think thats fine personally. i dont think we really need The Gender Binary: 2 to be something we also go out of our way to enforce and police

ok im being a little bit arch, but i do think the trans community projects cis womanhood / cis manhood onto trans experiences & livelihoods. theres a real need, it seems, to enforce who's "allowed" to use certain words, who's "allowed" to envision themselves in certain ways. "is it appropriation if i make memes about the IKEA shark, as an AFAB enby?" no, tyler, probably not, but why are you announcing your agab when you walk in the room?

what is the benefit of making these very distinct clubhouses? we started off by leaving the "no boys allowed," "no girls allowed" signs behind.. but then we just made our own signs? and they say the same thing? it's musical chairs. all we did is swap places. the rules are still the same, apparently. men and women are diametrically opposed, apparently.

its like... you start as cis and people say, you cant do that, your AGAB will get in the way. then you become trans and all your trans friends say the exact goddamn thing but with more sophistry. im tired.

[gizdathemxel]

CLARIFICATION NEEDED!!!!!

okay when i said “do not put afab/amab/tma/tma in your bio, that is cisgender society’s attempt at knowing your “real” gender” i did NOT meant to undermine the language/discussion that tme/tma was meant to provide!!! i think conversations about transmisogyny are extremely important BUT i also think that they are very very nuanced!!!!!!!!!

my issue with tma/tme is that it’s often used as a quick shortcut to see if a person is a transfem or transmasc and quickly sort the two and also that most online discourse does not rlly account for how transphobia, transmisogyny, and even transandrophobia, exomisia, intersexism, etc interact with each other !!!

@/oncelerfucker described how tme/tma is far more nuanced than a lot of people realized far better than i ever could so i rlly recommend reading their reblog.

tbh bigots do not care at ALL to be precise in their bigotry towards others; they see “person is similar to group i don’t like = i do not like person” and go off. as a member of the african diaspora (1st gen AA), i could make a MILLION posts about how black caribbeans/afrolatinos, black Europeans, etc are NOTHING like me and that i’m better than them (not true btw) and an antiblack racist will not GAF about those distinctions. they see black and their brains short circuit. There ARE distinctions, and they DO matter but they are not as clear cut as we might think! Now obviously there are finer nuances between race that is very separate from gender and sexuality but the general principle applies.

my issue is not inherently the terms tme/tma but rather how quickly they are flattened labels of ONLY identification, rather than bases of discussion. The transmisogyny a trans lesbian experiences may not be the same transmisogyny a straight trans woman experiences, but it makes neither of their transmisogynistic experiences lesser nor will a transmisogynist really bother to make that distinction. That distinction matters, but it shouldn’t be used to say “this person is more privileged than that person”.

i have seen the weird lateral violence that transfems and transmascs pit against each other as some groups say transmascs experience afab privilege (because their femininity is more easily accepted; which is not at all true) and other groups say that transfems experience male privilege/socialization (bc they grew up as male, so they would be privy to that privilege; also not at all true).

Both of these groups are noticing something accurate, but they are making incorrect assumptions about how this social dynamic works and blaming the wrong people. they incorrectly assume that the trans person on the opposite side of them is their enemy, when it’s so obviously not.

tldr (sorry i’m a ranter at heart); tme/tma are not inherently bad terminology, and discussions of transmisogyny (as well as all other forms transphobia and bigotry) function in society and how they affect certain groups of people are EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!!!!! i want to make it super obvious when i say that i am NOT trying to diminish anyone’s oppression or their voices, and im super sorry for the confusion!!! my true issues with tma/tme is how it’s utilized on the internet, rather than actually holding nuanced conversations, i see it flattened into another gender binary, where the supposed space for nuance is instead eaten up by lateral violence* of who is really the evil group of trans people holding us good trans people back from trans liberation. please please please keep having these discussions and please please please keep allowing the space for nuance in an increasingly polarized world.

(i still generally stand by not putting ur agab in ur bio bc i PROMISE u the wrong people are going to use that against u)

*when i say lateral violence, i do not mean actual physical violence but rather the term that refers to groups within similar social status attacking/othering each other. i’m saying that trans people are generally within the same social strata but sometimes we might weaponize the bigotry a certain group of trans people experiences in order to “elevate” ourselves (sidenote: this does not and never will work)

*gripping my hands so hard on a young trans persons shoulders that their bones are about to break*

do not log on to 4chan.com. do not get involved in passing olympics. you will always lose. do not put afab/amab/tma/tme in your bio, that is cisgender society trying to know your “real” gender. you do not exist to please cisgender people. there is no ‘right’ way to be trans. learn your goddamn history, listen to your elders. listen to other disenfranchised groups. listen to intersex people and check yourself for intersexism. listen to trans poc and check yourself for racism. listen to disabled people and check yourself for ableism. be open to learning always. labels are meant to fit you, not the other way around. you are not weird or predatory for simply being attracted to others. you’re fine if you’re not a skinny white twink or a barbie doll. you’re fine if your body is ‘weird’. you’re fine if you don’t have heavy or any dysphoria. it’s okay if you actually don’t want to transition or anything like that. life is worth living at any stage, you deserve to be happy. I SWEAR THAT YOU ARE OKAY!!!!!

[eulangelo]

last anon again. thank u for engaging in good faith! i see and understand ur perspective. i guess my only worry is that, in progressive spaces at least (and its a sentiment ive seen trans women and transfems communicate as well), letting an attitude of all men are inherently predators and whatever fester will hurt trans women as well, since even if people aren't outwardly transmisogynistic and do genuinely try their best to accept trans women as women, attitudes ingrained into us by our upbringing are hard to let go of. people can still act differently towards trans women because of their agab, and trans women do notice this. in addition, i think this kind of thinking can lead to the logic that trans women aren't predatory only because of their gender, not because bioessentialism is stupid. as such, if someone manages to make people stop believing in the womanhood of trans women, they will turn on them much more easily. i think we also had a gap in understanding between the two of us. when i talk about this attitude i don't mean people being warry of random men they don't know, but the bioessentialist idea that people who are commonly conceived of as men (those who are amab) are INHERENTLY more dangerous than people commonly conceived of as women (those who are afab). its something that's very easy to weaponise against trans women and transfemmes, and i believe that maintaining an attitude like that in progressive spaces leaves room for bad actors to capitalise on it. feel free not to publish this or not engage, im going off anon in case you'd like to continue this discussion in private and also for the sake of transparency (a third anon would be kind of weird at this point and not conducive to a nuanced conversation)

i do agree with you on this, although i think that if someone has such a radical and extremist view of all men and is not making a generalization then i also think there's lots of chances that person might end up being a transmisogynist, because being wary of men/disliking men etc and even joking abt "men are trash" is ok imo, but when it gets to the point where someone believes theres intrinsic innate differences between men and women (biologically or neurologically) or brings up "female/male socialization" that is a red flag, and i do think that this kind of behaviour must be called out.

but i still dont condone it when people generalize about gender essentialism or terf retoric by making it something that hurts men, cis or trans, because it's wrong. and with the insurgence of transmisogyny in tme trans circles, with so many transmascs coming up with terms like transandrophobia/transmisandry, seeing them say stuff like "we're oppressed because we're trans people who menstruate" "we have the right to be wary of women", them accusing the trans women who call them out of being terfs etc. i really dont trust anyone whos tme and brags about how we should all be more accepting of men, lest we become terf-adjacent.

[nothorses]

hi im not good english and no matter how much i search i have no idea what tme or tma means exactly and what im even supposed to do with these terms as a trans man, and i cant find simple explanations for dummies. like i know theyre acronyms but i just have absolutely no clue how they work and all the discourse surrounding it doesnt help. can i ask if you can explain these to me like im a caveman

TMA = TransMisogyny-Affected, which means anyone who is affected by transmisogyny: the specific and unique type of oppression that targets transfeminine people.

Depending on who you ask, this can mean anyone at all who is impacted by transmisogyny- which includes intersex people and people who would not be considered transfeminine- but it usually means transfeminine people specifically.

TME = TransMisogyny-Exempt, which means anyone who is not affected by transmisogyny.

The reason this gets so muddy and confusing is because the terms were (almost definitely) created by Baeddels to replace AFAB/AMAB in conversations about "AFAB privilege", a concept invented (again by Baeddels) basically to argue that trans men, other transmascs, AFAB nonbinary people, and cis women have access to privilege that AMAB people don't, on the basis of being assigned female at birth.

That argument, like Baeddelism in general, mostly targeted transmasculine people. So the term "TME" started out being used specifically to talk about transmascs, and is still used to talk about transmascs more than any other group.

Which is partially problematic because... some transmascs are, in fact, impacted by transmisogyny. And most people don't include them as "TMA" anyway, because the terms were never meant to include them.

TME/TMA have gotten really popular again lately, and most people now see them as a good and functional way to divide transfems from everyone else in conversations about privilege and oppression. I have some problems with this.

As far as "what to do with them" goes, that's up to you! I personally avoid using them. I don't claim to understand transmisogyny the way the vast majority of transfems do, and I can be respectful of that without putting "TME" in my bio or whatever.

[tomatograter]

Okay, but then what about people who still draw Roxy as a girl when he's a transman? I am a June supporter but I feel like there's a double standard when looking at these two characters, I've seen the same arguments used for both sides of these debates but I feel that people are more lenient with still viewing Roxy as transfem or a cis woman and that doesn't really sit right with me no matter how you try to spin it, it should be the same treatment for both characters and it feels weird that people feel that they can cherry pick because they don't want Roxy to be a man

1) epilogues roxy is never stated to be a trans man, there are plenty he/they/she transfems, butch transfems, nonbinary transfems, experimenting transfems, agender transfems, and the argument that roxy is a binary transmasculine man and can only be that and nothing else is so far from roxy themselves as a character it genuinely makes me roll my eyes. Roxy's fluid, experimenting, and that's the main takeaway from the epilogues.

2) roxy lalonde has always had transfem subtext, in the same way dirk strider has always had transmasc subtext, but in her case it starts with something even more blatant:

And you know, evolves into a long running thread of her performing femininity, being closely linked to the idea of lab-assisted reproduction, cloning, and ectobiology as means of creating family out of an implied "nothing" because it is alluded again and again they don't quite have the means to carry a child biologically. (Roxy's quest eventually leads to assisting the recreation of the Mothergrub, pulling it from the void itself, further tying to how important this desire and themes are) It also includes roxy's love for a series of books whose protagonist is referred by "she/he" or "s/he" pronouns - written by rose no less, whose's relationship to her mom is legendary, and also hussie's commentary that chumhandles are supposed to be a play on chromosomes. He first loosely stabilishes 'girls have alliterations while boys have different letters' as a visual shorthand, then roxy and dirk are purposefully left switched (GT and TT respectively) and this very fact is commented on during roxy's introduction, further signalling she's not a cis girl.

Really we could spend even more time picking at the smaller details that contribute to this profile (The 'coding transfem' subset of lgbt internet culture, the freaking catgirls, because of course, and more) but im not intending to do a lorepost, just a clarification. This has been pointed out by transfems for as long as roxy has been roxy, and works seamlessly w/ their text.

3) the epilogues were not written in collaboration with any trans women, and did stumble for it. Jade's presentation in the epilogues is... not my favorite, nor is the general cissentric atmosphere. Peruse at your leisure, but I'm not taking dirk's joke involving a dick twitch as Literal Facts either, so why should i start here

If you think nonbinary identities only encompass the spectrum of AFAB experiences i *fully* reccomend you to exit my page and don't look back