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nofomogirl · 1 year ago

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Introductions in opening scenes from Good Omens S1 and S2

It's time to revisit the walls of Eden scene after all the new info from the new season (part 1? nor promising, but maybe it's just part 1)

Warning: This post contains very minor spoilers for season 2. Mostly, as the title suggests, from the opening scene. But if you haven't seen the show yet and don't know what the opening scene is, I suggest you come back after watching because it's OMG.

In Good Omens the book the very first line of dialogue is "I'm sorry, what was it you were saying?" strongly implying that we've started listening to Aziraphale and Crowley mid-conversation. They are introduced to us, the readers, in the narrative bits, but the names are never used in actual dialogue.

Maybe they had introduced themselves earlier, maybe they didn't. Maybe they didn't need an introduction, maybe they did. We don't know and it doesn't matter. The authors wanted us to focus on the conversation at hand, not on their relationship. An angel and a demon on the walls of Eden are just an excuse to discuss certain ideas.

The show changes the scene a little and makes some things more explicit. We now know for sure that what we saw was the entire conversation because we were shown how it started. We now know for sure that (1) Aziraphale never gave his name, (2) Crowley never asked for it, (3) Crowley gave his name (4) but only after Aziraphale gently pressed him to.

After season 1 I was mostly looking at it from a practical perspective, probably because I like comparing how different kinds of media can convey information, and I mostly focused on how the book was translated into the show.

From that perspective, it was okay to cut the information that the angel's name was Aziraphale from that first scene, because we were going to learn it soon enough anyway, and there was no point in disrupting the flow of the conversation to include it. However, we needed to know that the serpent's name was Crawly because it was going to change and changes in Crowley's name are important. So it was justified to take this information from the narration and squeeze it into the dialogue. But in the most unintrusive way possible.

Of course, that doesn't mean I have never considered the in-universe significance of their introduction/lack of introduction in Eden. However, my headcanon was that the S01E01 opening was their very first meeting, and season 2 proved me wrong, so I will skip my old theories here.

Instead, let's look at S02E01 and S01E01 side by side.

S01E01 Aziraphale never gave his name / S02E01 Crowley never gave his name

We now know that Aziraphale hasn't introduced himself in Eden because they had met before.

But why has Crowley done the same among the stars? It couldn't be that they had already met even earlier, because if that was the case why would Aziraphale introduce himself then?

I believe one of the main reasons is that we're not supposed to know Crowley's angelic name. At least not yet, maybe not ever (I hope we will never learn it, since it is his dead name).

But that again is not an in-universe explanation.

Have you noticed how throughout season 2 two characters expected Crowley to know them, but he didn't? Sure, there's always memory manipulation theory, but honestly, I'm beginning to believe that he simply doesn't pay attention to people around him. And the way he acted towards Aziraphale seems to confirm it. He called out to a passing angel simply because he needed a hand. He wasn't looking for company and would be perfectly happy if Aziraphale left immediately after, leaving Crowley to enjoy his creation alone. It takes considerable effort on Aziraphale's side to engage Crowley in the conversation.

S01E01 Crowley never asked for Aziraphale's name / S02E01 Aziraphale never asked Crowley for his name

Again, because they had already met before Eden.

Right?

It is a valid explanation, obviously, but I'm not entirely sure that's the case. I think it's quite possible, that Crowley didn't remember Aziraphale just like he didn't remember Saraqael or Furfur. I know we wish to think Aziraphale was special and must have left an impression but I see no evidence of that in pre-Fall Crowley's behaviour. Quite the opposite.

I think the reason Crowley didn't ask Aziraphale for his name might have been because, as usual, he didn't care.

Unless, of course, they met before the Fall more than just this once and got to know each other better.

Ok, so why Aziraphale didn't ask Crowley for his name among the stars? I think we can rule out not being interested. Perhaps it was a sign of social awkwardness and insecurity; after he introduced himself and Crowley failed to reciprocate, he got discouraged? Not impossible, but it's not speaking to me.

My (veRy oRigINal) theory is that Aziraphale didn't ask because he already knew. It was the first time they were speaking face to face, but he was aware of Crowley before. Maybe because Crowley was a high-ranking angel and everybody knew who he was. Or maybe he personally caught Aziraphale's interest for some reason, hmm?

S01E01 Crowley gave his name / S02E01 Aziraphale gave his name

Now this is where things get really interesting.

Remember the "Crowley fell first" theory? It was neat, wasn't it? Unfortunately, it's going out the window now, because it couldn't have been any more obvious that Aziraphale had a massive crush on pre-Fall Crowley and in the creation scene he was bending over backward to flirt with him and extend their interaction. What's more, Crowley wasn't particularly interested!

Aziraphale introduces himself completely unprompted and seems so incredibly happy that he can. Crowley's reaction is a "nice meeting you", that sounds an awful lot like "whatever, bye".

After that, I will never be able to see Crowley's reaction to "I gave it away" and not think about how in season 2 he says "it is always too late"...

Ok, now let's have a look at the moment Crowley introduces himself in Eden.

He doesn't do it on his own. He only responds when Aziraphale shows interest.

Aziraphale doesn't explicitly ask Crowley for his name. He just talks to him, reaches a point when it would be natural to address him by his name, and suspends his voice. Crowley gets the hint and fills his name in. Aziraphale repeats it, Crowley gives him a little nod, and the conversation continues smoothly.

Before season 2, I just thought that it was a courteous gesture proving that Aziraphale sees Crowley as a person.

Season 2 makes it a little more complicated.

When Aziraphale stops mid-sentence at the point where Crowley's name should be, was it fully conscious? Was he going to use Crowley's old name and realize last moment, that he shouldn't? If so, what was his reason? Was it out of respect for Crowley, who might not identify with that name anymore, or was it because he believed a demon had no right to an angelic name? Or maybe it would be simply too painful for Aziraphale himself?

I'm going to stop here, but honestly. After you're done crying after the S2 finale, I strongly suggest watching the S2 opening scene, and then the S1 Eden scene. A new perspective really adds to it!

Then watch S2 opening again followed by the rest of S2 because we want to create numbers and make S3 happen.

#good omens 2 #good omens season 2 #aziraphale #crowley #ineffable husbands #good omens meta

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septembersghost · 1 year ago

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It seems like the recent haters/trolls on here keep getting their information from this one biography/book by Joel Williamson (I think it's called "Elvis Presley: A Southern Life"). Have you ever heard of this book or read it?

And why do the trolls take Williamson's word (someone who never even met E) over the word of the women who were actually with E? I don't understand it.

i don't know anything about this specific author though i have heard this title in passing, you'd definitely be better served asking april or bee or tam about this. that said, i did quickly find the following:

a few things in this article stand out to me, for example: "The cultural and academic snobbery that for a long time dismissed Elvis as being a figure worthy of academic consideration, unfortunately, is still alive...it is reasonable to observe that, on balance, there is a narrative undercurrent where the author’s choice of word, phrase (and sometimes) narratively rather judgmental (value laden) social snobbery (but not malice), do suggest a negative message about Elvis (or at best provides a mixed message)."

"Having said this, importantly Ownby highlights a seminal theme in the book...that it suggests the roots of Elvis’ failings lay in the roots of his rise to popularity. This is a theme developed in Williamson’s work and one which deserves proper consideration. Whether one agrees or disagrees with the idea (theory) it is implicitly a strong one.

Other issues which have incensed some early readers of Elvis Presley: A Southern Life include Williamson’s portrayal of Elvis as obsessed with sex.

In defence of the author, how many males aren’t obsessed with those thoughts at that age? My view is that the significance of Elvis' sexual proclivity is usually overstated. Certainly in the 1950s and for most of the 1960s Elvis is recorded as satisfying a robust sexual appetite. In this respect he is/was no different to other young, or older, adult males provided a similar opportunity to satisfy their hormonal urges – and instructively the stories around Elvis’ sexual escapades are quite conservative and prosaic when compared to those of many other celebrities of his time through to today.

And as stated in Elvis Presley: A Southern Life, not all of Elvis' close relationships with women were of a sexual nature (making him no different to most people (male or female) in the mix of his interaction with the opposite sex)."

you all know i don't like talking about this (in regards to ANYONE), and i grow exhausted by its omnipresence, but the outright obsession with elvis via objectification and elvis' thoughts about and approach to sex and romantic relationships is somewhat insane to me (this is not a dig at fans here on tumblr, but i mean in regards to surrounding/wider cultural discussion). when you do any cursory investigation into this at all, you're immediately met with exaggeration, salacious yet unfounded rumor, and occasionally outright lies, and because it cannot be corroborated (or disproven, or refuted or even broached at all by elvis himself), it's easy to perpetuate. and then you'll read accounts from any of the women who were verifiably (this part is important, because there are a lot of unverified things floating around) involved with him that paint quite a different picture.

his attitudes about gender roles and the home were fairly common for someone of his upbringing, cultural roots, and understanding of society at that time. he loved and respected women in general, not only in those parameters, and there's very little that sounds substantively weird (lighthearted role play and preference for white garments are not enough to send me over the edge here lol), compared to basically ANY OTHER MALE ROCK STAR YOU CAN FIND. even of that same time period! it's bewildering how this is pasted onto this man as if he was anywhere close to some of the other behavior that was happening, and continued to happen, in that business. there are true horror stories of abuse and exploitation (including from successful male musicians who are still living). while i may not agree with elvis' patriarchal outlook or demands at times, nor how things unfolded with cilla and the infidelity in various situations, i just cannot be bothered to condemn him as a monster for human failings or for views that were standard while he was alive. there's so much to take into consideration in regards to context with him, and his unresolved trauma/ptsd, and various health struggles...he wasn't some angry abuser, it's ludicrous.

furthermore, this is by far the most damning information about that book: "Undue reliance on several sources including Elvis (Albert Goldman) and Child Bride: The Untold Story of Priscilla Beaulieu Presley (Suzanne Finstad) help explain Willliamson's narrative content, but at the same time urge caution in accepting all of his exposition." goldman's book is garbage and you can easily find many explanations as to why, and i doubt you need me to explain why ANYONE using child bride as a source is horrific - finstad and currie grant are despicable, and priscilla sued over that dreck for a reason. it being used as a "source" immediately invalidates practically any other research or anything an author has to say because it proves they don't vet their sources properly nor with any integrity or consideration, not only for elvis, but for other people in his life. so yeah. my respect is minimal here.

the simple truth is people enjoy dirty laundry and tearing others down, they always have. the slightest whiff of scandal is like blood in the water. we are also consumed and obsessed by things that are none of our damn business (unless someone is actively doing harm or perpetrating abuse, their private lives are not ours to police). why listen to the experiences and testimony of women who knew him and were there when that doesn't fit the vilified narrative they want? they don't care to hear about him as a real, complex human being, they want a carnival attraction to leer at and attack. it's boring and facile.

he wasn't a perfect person nor partner, he wasn't a god (and vehemently, sincerely expressed as much and asked not to be seen as one), he was a human being with flaws and struggles and a fame previously unseen in this world that was difficult to bear, and though he had his missteps and bad choices and foibles, he did his very best to keep improving, to make amends, to give whatever he could, and to be as good a man as he could keep striving to be. you'll never find me diminishing that.

anon, editing to add this astute information from chelsea:

from what i have read about it, the author leverages his status as an expert on southern culture to disparage elvis, playing up rumors and scandal to portray him as white trash (southern writers, stop being self-hating classists challenge), dismissing his musical career as a middling fluke and finding more interest in speculation about his sex life. he makes ample use of albert goldman, suzanne finstad, and other secondary sources of questionable veracity or relevance. the book got some reviews from academic journals since the author is known as a william faulkner scholar, and almost all of them were unimpressed and found it really rambling and pointless, despite starting off with 1-2 interesting things to say about how women in the south helped create his image and reputation. but a lot of buzzfeed type articles used the book's publication to create listicles that just assemble things in it as if they're 100% true. i was actually just looking for reviews again just now and mindi BLEW UP at this book and her response is on some of the fan forums. and while i was reading her post, i saw that she was leaving comments on it just two weeks ago, saying nothing ever seems to change with the way the media portrays him, based on nothing, and she wishes there was more she could do about it.

#and i'm over it #like get back to me after they read about john phillips or david ruffin (off the top of my head)#and this list of far worse behavior is. endless.#anonymous #letterbox #elvis presley #i'm heated and if anyone sends me anything ignorant about this i will not hesitate to block you #NOT UPSET AT YOU ANON!!! it's a fair question #i was a dreamer

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ariveth · 2 years ago

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generalofthenorth:

He did his best to ignore her hand when it slid lower, looking dainty against the breastplate, her skin an appealing contrast to the golden decorations under her fingers. But as she pressed closer and her breath tickled the exposed skin on his neck when she whispered, his resolve faltered. His jaw tightened, his head grew light, and his tongue suddenly felt thick and heavy. Luckily her grip behind his neck had noticeably relaxed, and he seized the opportunity to escape from the compromising position. He dropped his hands from her face to rest on her shoulders and gently pushed her as he leaned back. It wasn’t enough space between them to convince anyone who walked in that they had not been doing something, but it was enough that Tullius could finally breathe and think.

“Yes,” he answered bluntly and clipped to avoid letting the uncertainty, and his weakness, leak into his voice for her to hear, “if you can’t tell me why, then perhaps you’re feeling ill?” He pressed the back of his hand against her forehead to feel for a fever, and he frowned in disappointment when he found no sign of one, “Or maybe you hit your head?“ Tullius mumbled more to himself as he felt her head for a lump, a cut, or anything to explain this lapse in judgment. She may have been flirtatious with him before, and as flattering as that and this apparent interest had been, he had convinced himself that it must have been for ulterior motives. And something must be wrong with her to have kissed him like she had.

He sighed in frustration when he found nothing significant to satisfy his theory. "Or perhaps all you need is some rest, take your gold and rent a bed for the night.” He quickly slid from between her and the table, brushing off her hand, to turn and grab her well-deserved earnings. When he turned back to her, there was a brief moment of hesitation before he finally reached out and took her hand to press the payment into her palm. “Go get some sleep my little thief, don’t do something now that you will regret once your head is clear.”

THIS WAS VERY NEW TO HER. Of course she'd experienced plenty bashfulness, and plenty of blatant rejection in equal measure — but never such a fascinating combination of both. She's perpetually smiling and gawking all at once, endeared and confused by this man simultaneously. She doesn't invade his space again once he physically separates them, though the heated invitation in her clever gaze never quite dissipates. "Is it the blood?" she grins. "Would you prefer I bathe first, is that it?" She knows it isn't, of course. The general's reasoning would be something intangible, a hesitation constructed by logic and careful consideration. The physical aspect has already proven to have no qualms about this.

"I'm not ill," Ariveth assures, amusement colouring her voice as he feels around her face, her head; curiosity flitting across her expression at his insistence that she had to be somehow affected, "haven't had my brains knocked 'round, either. I'm perfectly fine." Her brow twitches slightly, as does the eye beneath it. "I'm not the first woman who's wanted to grace your bedside, of that I'm certain." She reaches up, grazing her knuckles along his stubbled jaw, gaze soft and playful all at once. "So what are you so afraid of?"

The dunmer watches Tullius turn away and slip out of her touch, retrieving the gold she'd left waiting in favour of sating the lust that'd simmered in her over the last brutal few days. The brief hesitation doesn't go unnoticed, however, and the endearment certainly doesn't; whether intentional or not. "Or perhaps you could offer me your bed," she remarks boldly, hands closing over the hefty pouch of coin but trapping his own between them along with it. It's impetuous, inappropriate, inviting reproach or worse; but the risk feels worth it. "Is it my regret we're concerned about? Or yours, General?"

#i have not known peace ever since reading 'my little thief'#✗ — CONVERSATION ｡#✗ — FT. TULLIUS ｡#✗ — QUEST: EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE ｡#generalofthenorth

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theicemer · 4 years ago

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so after a night of sleep and (mostly) silencing the constant brrrrr that my brain was doing after that kiss, I once again have Thoughts that are nothing new but that need to find an outlet. (also bc some of y'all asked and thank you for that????)

[some tw for very brief mentions of suicide]

so we got relatively few scenes with the mains in this ep, but what was there was significant. we have doom, who actually seems to have shifted his perspective from wanting to end the world to actually choosing to die himself, if possible. and this gets more heartbreaking the more we consider the entire context; remember, this is a man* who was sure that he cannot die, the implications being he possibly tried multiple times, in various ways, with no effect. having no possibility of ending his existence, he projected his suffering onto the world itself to deal with the pain. but now, with dong kyung entering the equation, he cannot do so anymore. together with what the promo showed us, it's easy to conclude that he now wants her not just to live, but to have a life without suffering--something that he thinks he himself brings to the world. (this is, of course, another wrong assumption on his part, since it's clear that people's suffering comes from different life circumstances, personal struggles, other people too. that's his self-hatred doings its work tho.)

this change of heart is clearly caused by dong kyung. before, he was ready to use her feelings to make her fulfill his own goal, but he can't possibly do that now. but it's not only the fact that she recognized him and his pain, but also his own growing feelings towards her that make it impossible to still want to end the world. because what happens to her if the world is destroyed? and will she be happy? this is why he says he will happily die for her if she loves him. I think that, as far as he's concerned, the world could still be doomed, but now he takes her life into consideration, thus him laying down his life is the next best thing for him.

doom himself acknowledges that a lot of this is entirely new to him. this is also why he is completely out of his element, often stopping himself from acting on his feelings. this is also how we end up with the last scene too. people already pointed out before that doom seems to dislike the loss of control that comes with his emotions. his feelings making him act and the instant confusion and retreat that follows seem to be standard now.

so now, the kiss. doom said before that he has an idea of what dong kyung wants to use her wish on, but it looks like he was caught off guard when she actually said she wants him to love her. now, he usually seems to be in control enough that he stops himself in time before acting on his feelings. here though, he is helpless. it looks like her wish struck something in him that made it impossible not to kiss her. the breath he lets out before he leans in, like he gives up, because he just can't possibly stop himself. so, of course, what follows is him stepping away and disappearing once he comes to his senses. I also suspect there could be an element of him actually being scared of what all of this means, and how their mutual feelings could affect his plans, because how can he let go of his own existence when he knows this is potentially something he'd be sacrificing?

(now, a small theory time: the little girl that is now our god villainess it seems, is clearly talking about doom and resetting him since he's malfunctioning. it's entirely possible, especially with what promo suggests, that she will torture him in order to reset him in some way, possibly to make him once again cruel and uncaring towards dong kyung. if any of y'all have watched spn, you probably know what that looks like. it's also possible that it wasn't him who ran away, but her snatching him away. either way, dong kyung is probably gonna take it the wrong way. on another note, the pot that god is carrying has now been confirmed as a direct parallel of doom. so we have our small villainess possessive over him, but unable to make him bloom. but guess what dong kyung did a little while ago?

damn you, hades and persephone parallels.)

and the last note, which is dong kyung's actual wish. she asks doom if she can ask for him to love her, and he says no. he could be saying that it is impossible to manipulate his emotions with a wish like that, or that he doesn't want to fulfill that wish. however, he follows with a kiss. so what's the conclusion?

it doesn't matter either way whether that wish is possible or not, because what doom is saying is that it is simply useless to wish for his love. with that kiss he is saying that, if he doesn't love her already, he is well on his way there.

and thus my brain goes brrrrr.

#doom at your service #days meta #y'all i did it once again.... I've written a whole ass essay because these two are still making me insane #this is even more rambly than the last one but enjoy #and if you have different opinions please share them because this is only one interpretation #THE KISS THO LORD #my posts

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fellcharas · 3 years ago

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my deltarune theory(ies?)

DISCLAIMER: i am not an actual theorist and i wrote this all from memory! this is taking into consideration the possibility that chara is involved in the making of deltarune (1, 2) as well as other widely believed theories (gaster being involved)

putting a read more because this shit is LONG so buckle up

start with the basics?

something i was thinking about last night is how it’s interesting that we don’t know very much about susie’s home life or her reason for being “the bully.” while there are certainly hints that point to it not being great at all, there’s nothing directly confirming what it’s like.

however something that many people have pointed out is that through the numerous odd similarities deltarune and undertale have, there is the clam girl. for those who don’t know, clam girl is a NPC that you encounter if your game’s fun value is between 80 and 89 and you’re not playing a no mercy route. she talks of her neighbor’s daughter, suzy, and tells frisk that they should become friends with her. but she notes the fact that frisk would have no idea where suzy is yet fate will find a way for them to meet.

in the true pacifist epilogue of undertale with a fun value of 81, clam girl explains that the time frisk (or we, the players) will meet suzy is “fast approaching.” this specific term is yellow in text and her sprite becomes grayscale. then she abruptly vanishes, the noise as she does so being the same noise used for the mystery man and gaster follower 2 sprites when interacting with them. interestingly, her grayscale sprite is “spr_clam_goner”, not much different than goner kid. this dialogue was also added right before the release of deltarune.

so... who is suzy? while it is possible that suzy could just be susie with a different name for undertale’s sake, it’s also possible that suzy could be susie’s sister, likely younger. catty, returning from undertale, has a little sister in deltarune named catti. there isn’t much significance that i could add that would make it likely suzy is susie’s little sister other than this, but i felt it was worth mentioning so do with it what you will.

so... what else?

after interacting with clam girl, if you do the work necessary to access sans’ basement (or “lab”), you’ll be able to find a description of a photo inside one of the drawers that points out there are “three smiling people” with the text “don’t forget” written on it. this has been pointed out several times before due to the fact “don’t forget” is the deltarune song that plays at the end of ch1 (and ch2 although remixed?). if i recall correctly there is no other way of finding this flavor text except for interacting with clam girl. interesting.

lots of people believe that the covered machine in sans’ lab is a time machine. with sans’ many connections to gaster, it’s also possible that this could be a machine gaster made and had broken. it is said to be unfixable.

gaster is confirmed to have created the core. but i don’t believe this is what he fell into. it’s never specified what he fell into, just that it was his creation. so i believe that gaster fell into the time machine. and by taking entry number 17 into account, we are met with the possibility that the time machine might involve a black hole. fortunately for you guys black holes is a special interest of mine, so i can explain this easily.

basically, the anatomy of a black hole, or the structure, consists of the following:

event horizon

singularity

photon sphere

ergosphere

the event horizon of a black hole is the shadowy dark sphere that we see in images. it is a boundary in spacetime where gravity is so strong that nothing, not even light, can escape. once having crossed the event horizon, the nature of spacetime begins to deform, causing space’s usual three dimensions (length, width, height) to form only one dimension (movement forward) and time’s usual one dimension (into the future) to form three dimensions (past, present, and future). spacetime is what makes up our reality. remember this. and, as predicted by einstein’s theory of general relativity, mass bends spacetime (imagine our universe as a flat plane, and the mass of our earth causes a dip in the space underneath it), so a black hole’s mass warps spacetime so strongly that any direction you try to go in once having crossed the event horizon will lead you to the singularity. (at least... for a non-rotating, non-charged black hole.)

the singularity is a gravitational singularity, a region that may lie at the center of a black hole wherein the curvature/deformation of spacetime becomes infinite. because all black holes spin (due to their last moments as stars involving very fast rotational speeds), the singularity in a rotating black hole’s mathematics smears out to form a ring singularity (ringularity) that lies in the plane of rotation. in this case (as well as the case of a non-rotating black hole), the region has zero volume. and because of all of the black hole’s mass being held in this region, the singularity can be thought of as having infinite density. within a rotating black hole it is possible to avoid the singularity, and extending this solution as far as possible reveals the hypothetical possibility of exiting the black hole into a different spacetime (region of reality) with the black hole acting as a wormhole.

the photon sphere is a spherical boundary of zero thickness in which photons (elementary, electromagnetic radiation particles, associated with light) that move on tangents (the tangent line to a plane curve at a given point is the straight line that "just touches" the curve at that point) to that sphere would be trapped in a circular orbit about the black hole. while light can still escape from the photon sphere, any light that crosses the photon sphere on an inbound trajectory will be captured by the black hole.

lastly, the ergosphere is a region of spacetime found in rotating black holes in which it is impossible to stand still. basically, it’s like a whirlpool, and any object near the black hole will tend to start moving in the direction of rotation.

okay, so... what does this have to do with entry number 17?

WELL, here’s the dialogue from entry number 17. i’ll bold the key parts that i feel tie the possibility of this being a time machine to the time machine involving a black hole:

ENTRY NUMBER SEVENTEEN DARK DARKER YET DARKER THE DARKNESS KEEPS GROWING THE SHADOWS CUTTING DEEPER PHOTON READINGS NEGATIVE THIS NEXT EXPERIMENT SEEMS VERY VERY INTERESTING ... WHAT DO YOU TWO THINK

as you can probably tell by now, it’s possible that this description of growing darkness, no photons, is similar to that of what a black hole is like.

but why would gaster create a black hole as part of a time machine? well, my idea is that he didn’t mean to do so. he likely concentrated enough energy or mass that caused a black hole to accidentally form. this black hole would have been small in diameter, thus having an incredibly short lifespan, its evaporation being violent. this would have broken the machine entirely. however, for the sake of undertale being a video game, it’s understandable why sans (and possibly papyrus or alphys) would be okay and why the machine is still relatively in tact.

it’s unclear to me why gaster would want to make a time machine. because time travel in the sci-fi sense (involving the grandfather paradox) is likely impossible without breaking the fabric of our reality, this could also be explained for why it went so horribly wrong for gaster. and - fun fact - once you cross the event horizon, you are lost to the universe forever. every particle you are made of, every little bit of energy you hold within your existence, is lost to the outside universe. forever. this is called the black hole information paradox. however, realistically, those who are outside of the black hole will still remember you, but in gaster’s sense... i don’t think this is what happened.

it’s possible that gaster managed to avoid the singularity, if the black hole he crossed was rotational. however, because he couldn’t leave the black hole, he could have traveled to different points in spacetime. this is why he was shattered across time and space as his followers describe, because undertale confirms that within its world, this possible existence of a black hole allows for wormholes to exist.

but... but wait. no, no, no. we can’t think of undertale as space-time. why? because sans himself confirms that the continuum of undertale’s reality is a time-space continuum. he puts time before space, which could be intentional and thus swapping their roles. within undertale this means that time is 3-dimensional, explaining the existence of save points and the ability to reset and load. space, on the other hand, is 1-dimensional, meaning you can only ever go one way which is to the end of the game. even if you load previous save files, you’ll still end up finished.

so if gaster was shattered across time and space, it’s possible that he was also shattered beyond. it’s believed that he had some sense of awareness, that he found out he was in a game with multiple different timelines, thus starting his “experiment.” he created the blueprints for the determination extraction machine, and because it’s also widely believed that he and chara were in cahoots with each other, maybe gaster wanted to extract some of chara’s determination and make something for himself. and maybe he succeeded in some way, not by extracting chara’s but by making his own somehow. it’s unknown right now to me. (though if he acquired determination somehow, that would make sense if the mysteryman sprite was him, considering the weird markings or drippy things on his face as well as the general blob-like look.)

so this implies that deltarune’s reality is a time-space continuum as well?

yes. gaster was smart, brilliant even, but it’s likely he didn’t know much beyond the nature of his own reality. when creating deltarune he made the reality of its universe something similar to undertale’s, with 3-dimensional time and 1-dimensional space. if gaster had the determination or something more, enough to persist even as a remnant of a shattered being outside his own reality, then this makes sense as to how he’d be able to create deltarune. if he’s forgotten to everyone within the world of undertale, and (in some abstract way for the sake of kris, jevil, spamton and possibly others) known to nobody in deltarune, yet he created deltarune, he isn’t dead. he’s something else. he’s a god.

and this is why chara is in cahoots with him, even now.

see, chara has determination. they didn’t fall into the underground intentionally; they tripped (1, 2). given these facts and theories it’s likely that chara had determination, or hope, the ability to persevere and keep going no matter what. chara had a red soul like frisk’s, which is what made their essence attach to frisk’s body. that’s why they are tethered to us via name and stats and narration. and as we all know, the red soul symbolizes determination. power.

but while chara is very much their own person, they are still what their name was meant to imply: a character. chara reflects the will of the player; they are not the player theirself, they are their own person, but due to their attachment to frisk (and by extension, us) they act as a mirror for what we do in undertale. and sadly for them, gaster is much more powerful due to his circumstances. gaster is more like us than chara is.

and given deltarune’s theme of nobody’s choices mattering, nobody having any real control over what they do or say, if we take into consideration the fact that chara speaks in the no mercy route about destroying "this" world and "moving onto the next" and asking "when were [we] the one in control", then it’s clear that they have something to do with the theme of deltarune. chara has only ever wanted control, whether that be a good or bad thing is currently out if the question. they wanted control over their own life when they were alive in undertale, and now they want control over other people. anything they feel is a good thing for them to have control over, they will reach for it.

the gonermaker sequence in chapter 1 is abruptly cut off by someone who speaks VERY similarly to chara, in contrast to the person from before who we all agree is gaster (in both japanese and english, it is very chara-esque way of speaking). now, why is this called the gonermaker? my guess is because chara has been discarding all these vessels, making gaster’s experiment much more difficult to start off and get going.

all the gaster followers from undertale, including goner clam girl and goner kid, show up in deltarune. they are fully colored sprites. the only goner character who doesn’t show up in deltarune is the one WE create in chapter 1′s beginning sequence. and i think that’s because they are set up to reappear, at some point in one of deltarune’s future chapters.

so, chara has been discarding all of the vessels, all the followers, all the now-goners because they know that these people will never have control over their lives. as long as they are shallow vessels meant to worship and serve our (the players’) and gaster’s desires (to play a game and experiment, thereby affecting an entire world/universe), they have no autonomy over themselves. and this resonates with chara for a multitude of reasons we can tie back to undertale. they state that "no one can choose who they are in this world," because it’s true. no one can choose who they are. not in a world dominated by gods like us and gaster. and that’s why chara discards these vessels and characters who were probably once their own real persons, as a means of sparing them from what they lacked for theirself: control. and no matter what, even if chara didn’t interrupt, we would have still ended up as kris because again No One Can Choose Who They Are In This World. chara was making gaster’s sick joke plain and simple for us, that it applies to us in some way too.

so then... what’s the deal with spamton and jevil?

well, i think they are people who encountered gaster (this is widely believed anyway) and convinced themselves that they were significant for this knowledge that they are in a game, knowledge gaster told them of, driving them both insane and robbing them of who they were meant to be. and because nobody can choose who they are in deltarune, when they try to break free nothing changes or has a happy outcome, because it’s sadly just not possible to change your fate in deltarune.

this presumably-fact becomes clearer with spamton, though. and that’s why kris becomes so afraid, both at the end of spamton neo’s pacifist battle and his snowgrave battle. because kris can’t choose who they are, either. kris is like spamton, a puppet. a heart on a chain. they don’t have full control over who they are and trying to break free only hurts them more, as we see whenever they tear their soul out of their body and disable our input. but, maybe it’ll be different for kris, because they ARE the protagonist. but right now it feels like they’ve given up on the idea of having control over theirself. the only rebelling they do is work to open a dark fountain, thereby continuing the story of deltarune and, really, only helping us more in terms of playing the game.

and i mean, it’s also obvious that gaster holds influence over kris, too, considering the weird hidden encounters where you interact with something and see a man smiling or waving at you or giving you an egg. and this egg doesn’t change into a ball of trash like every other dark world item once you return to the light world. it stays the same. i can’t really remember the significance of eggs when it comes to gaster other than his whole existence being left as an Easter Egg but i do know that on the date with papyrus in undertale, there’s an egg on the side with the dating hub so, whether that’s there for funny points or lore is unknown, but interesting too.

i also want to say that i don’t think gaster and chara are being pitted against each other in terms of "these are 2 different types of gamers." while that would make sense simplistically, i feel like toby would be much more in depth and nuanced with it, as he usually is with his method of storytelling. because even though chara is kind of god-like, considering their death in undertale and their soul being the same as ours, leading to them being attached to us like some kind of angel (and angels have lots of significance in both undertale and deltarune), they’re still only a character and not at all on the level that gaster is.

i personally think gaster and chara are, on a more hidden level because toby isn’t being very direct at all with these two, meant to represent a different side of the "player vs character" perspective. and that’s something that undertale and deltarune have both tried to convey to us in the no mercy and snowgrave routes, but unfortunately in undertale’s case it was widely misinterpreted in both ways. i think it’s a bit more sensible to go about it this way, because gaster is not us, as in we don’t control him like we can other characters, and the symbolism of what he’s meant to represent is there.

ok, one last question: how did chara access wherever gaster’s in?

that part is still very foggy. i can’t come up with a definite reasoning, but for now i’ll take a wild guess and say that maybe chara grew tired of being a ghost with no real autonomy. maybe they decided they wanted to break free for theirself, and by doing this their essence became detached from frisk’s body (and by extension our control), thus causing them to be shattered similarly to gaster or winding up in the void gaster has. however that happened.

there’s a lot of uncanny resemblance between chara and kris, though, especially if this is the case. chara breaks free and winds up in the void with gaster, and kris realizes that breaking free for theirself may not be all that they think it’s meant to be. given spamton neo and all. aside from the fact that chara and kris look similar, have the same family (though in different universes of course), and strangely both have a sweet tooth, this is especially odd to me.

i can’t quite put it into words, but it feels like, to me at least, chara is very much present in the world of deltarune. and they share similarities with kris that are hard to ignore.

so that’s it, then.

for the most part... yes. a lot of the theories i’ve linked here and there explain things i agree with, so you can read them as you see fit. i especially recommend nochocolate’s posts on chara if you’re interested, such as the ambiguity of freedom in undertale (and, though this was never mentioned in their post, by extension now deltarune).

but. there is one character that seems to be involved in some (or a lot) of this. and that’s papyrus. the only problem is, i can’t figure out what’s going on.

at first glance papyrus is just a very charming guy. but you know, he’s actually a lot more mysterious than sans. he shares similarities to chara and flowey/asriel, and holds weird possible connections to gaster. he’s also the only major character from undertale (aside from asriel) who hasn’t made a physical appearance in deltarune. while checking sans and papyrus’ house will have you met with narration describing “a distant trousle of bones”, it’s worth noting that in chapter 2 it’s described as getting farther and farther away. so... why? is this world’s papyrus just shy, or is there a deeper reason?

again, i can’t tell what’s going on with papyrus, if there even is anything at all. but there’s a lot of weird and mysterious little oddities involving him that i don’t think are unintentional or accidental.

anyways... there. hoo boy. that’s my theory. or theories. i don’t really know. like i said, i’m not a theorist, i don’t know everything and i don’t expect any of this to be true. it’s just what makes sense to me. and it’s important that if you believe this, you also recognize that toby is the creator and he does what he thinks is best when it comes to the story of deltarune and the possible connections it has to undertale (even though toby’s said that the two have no connections, it’s not uncommon for him to be untruthful about things).

if you read all of this... thanks! let me know your thoughts!

#inkling.txt #deltarune #deltarune chapter 2 #deltarune analysis #deltarune meta #deltarune theory #undertale #undertale theory #wd gaster #chara dreemurr #w.d. gaster #chara undertale #ok to reblog

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qqueenofhades · 4 years ago

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Slides on up to your inbox like the darkling in a good mood (preens with expert cape whirl). Hello your eminence. Ivan and Fedyor each meet Kirigan for the first time. Ahem. If you’re still taking prompts about those two loverender heartbirds.

I hope you don't mind if I altered your prompt slightly, since I figured that they met Kirigan for the first FIRST time as boys brought to the Little Palace. Instead, they meet Kirigan for the first time as a couple in order to ask a terrifying favor, especially since this plays nicely into my recent Thoughts about them + him.

Also on AO3 as a chapter of the better half of me.

The pair of Heartrenders come to a final halt before the tall carved doors, look them up and down, and draw identical nervous breaths. The oprichniki on guard know Ivan well, of course, though they are less used to seeing him with Fedyor – and more to the point, for the two of them to be holding hands. But they rap on the doors, call, “My lord, your visitors have arrived,” and swing them wide, permitting entrance. And in such fashion, formal keftas stiff with laundry starch, palms sweating but backs straight, they go on in.

Inside, General Kirigan is bent over an ornate table laden with charts and books, but he straightens up when he sees them. “Ah, Ivan.” His tone is both friendly – so much as Kirigan goes in for, at least – and questioning. His dark eyes flick to their clasped hands. He obviously must have an inkling of what they are here to ask him, but he arches an eyebrow nonetheless. “And – Fedyor, was it? Fedyor Kaminsky?”

“Da, moi soverennyi,” Fedyor answers formally, in Old Ravkan, though the odds that Kirigan doesn’t know the exact name and specialty of each and every Grisha in the ranks are slim-to-nonexistent. He lets go of Ivan’s hand, as if eager to be considered on his own merits and not only as the other man’s shadow. “Thank you for receiving us.”

“Of course.” Kirigan tips his head to the oprichniki, who close the doors, indicating that the General is now occupied and will not be disturbed. “Sit. Glass of kvas?”

“No, sir.” Despite the invitation, neither Ivan nor Fedyor take a seat, hands stiffly clasped behind their backs, the way they stand on parade when the tsar reviews the troops in spring. Ivan clears his throat. “Fedyor and I have come to ask your permission to…”

He’s not scared of most things. Almost none, in fact. But this is different.

He coughs.

“Permission to…” Fedyor picks up helpfully, trying to cover the moment of silence, the way the two of them have each other’s backs whether in battle or in horribly awkward conversations with their commanding officer. “To be…”

He glances back at Ivan, and Ivan takes the last of it. “To be married,” he says, as flatly and firmly as he can. Then, feeling it perhaps necessarily to specify in case this is not something Kirigan has been asked before, he adds, “To each other.”

Both of Kirigan’s eyebrows jump this time, though he doesn’t respond aloud. In theory, the Grisha are allowed to be married, but they are required to seek permission from the general first, and if he deems the liaison hasty, ill-judged, detrimental to morale, or otherwise prejudicial to the interests of the Second Army, Ravka’s most elite and feared military force, that permission can be denied. The last thing you want is lovers making too much of a stink, trying to pull special privileges or abandoning their responsibilities to the unit in favor of their partner. Then there is, of course, the added fact that Ivan and Fedyor are both men. They spent hours in the library before venturing this request, and so far, they have found nothing explicitly prohibiting two people of the same gender from being married in the formal Ravkan liturgy, but then, they didn’t exactly rush off to find a presbyter or an archimandrite and ask for detailed theological opinions. The traditionalists won’t like it, but they were never going to like it. Among the Grisha, one’s personal preferences are largely irrelevant, as long as you do your job well. And indeed, Ivan’s general nature is forbidding enough to make it unlikely that their compatriots would dare to ask, or that they even suspect. But still.

“Married,” Kirigan repeats, after a painfully long pause. “Ah.”

“With your permission,” Ivan repeats, to stress that they are doing this by the book, the exact same way he would if Fedyor was a woman. “Moi soverennyi.”

Kirigan considers them, tapping his fingers together. “Are you sure?”

“Yes,” Fedyor rushes, a little too eager to answer, as he steps forward, eyes blazing. Ivan feels a renewed surge of adoration for him, the way you can almost hear the heroic music swelling in the background. “I – I love him, my lord. I would die for him, and he for me.”

“That is very sweet,” Kirigan says, in the tone of a man watching a mildly interesting ballet. “I am glad to hear it. Fedyor, do you mind giving myself and Ivan a moment alone?”

Fedyor snaps his mouth shut and looks worried, but doesn’t, of course, refuse. He swallows hard, steps back, and jerks his head in a nod, touching Ivan’s hand in a brief, silent gesture of reassurance. Then he withdraws through the inner doors of the chamber, and they shut behind him, leaving Ivan and the Black General alone. They regard each other in the pale sunlight slanting through the diamonded windows, and though it runs his nerves ragged, Ivan waits for Kirigan to speak first. He braces for any question he might be asked, no matter how intrusive. If this is what it takes for this, for them, he will do it. He will. He is no traitor. He is loyal to his tsar and to his general, and he loves his country. He just loves Fedyor too.

At last, Kirigan turns away, opens a jeweled box, and removes a small dark item, curved and sharp-looking. He holds it up. “Do you know what this is, Ivan?”

“No, moi soverennyi.”

“It is an amplifier,” Kirigan says. “One that I made myself, in the oldest of the Bonesmith’s ancient arts. It comes from a claw of Morozova’s bears, killed in the deep wilderness of Tsibeya. It would be a significant addition to your own considerable power. I am prepared to make a gift of it to you, in celebration of your wedding.”

Ivan’s jaw drops, though he does his best to reel it up again and not stand there gaping like an imbecile. “To – to me, moi soverennyi?”

“Yes,” Kirigan repeats, looking amused, as if there was someone else in the chamber he could possibly be addressing. “Are you interested?”

“Yes. Of course I am.” Ivan pauses. “My lord, is there some sort of – ?”

“No catch, of course,” Kirigan says airily, as if anticipating that was Ivan’s next question. “Merely a reward for one of my most talented and loyal servants, who, it seems, has finally found happiness. I was wondering if it was even possible.”

Ivan shifts uncomfortably. “Is that so unimaginable?”

“To hear some of your colleagues talk, yes.” Kirigan still sounds amused. “No, do not apologize. I would not have you be otherwise. It is a useful talent and one that you should cultivate, which is why I offer this as a token of my esteem. If you agree, I will call David Kostyk, the Fabrikator, and have it sealed into your hand. A mark both of your wedding and your renewed loyalty to me.”

“Yes, yes. Absolutely.” Ivan almost feels relieved, when this could have been much worse. “My lord – ”

“Of course,” Kirigan goes on, as if he has not spoken, “you know perfectly well that the lives of Grisha are dangerous, especially in these times of war. If I grant my permission to this marriage, especially in contravention of established tradition, I need to know that you are also still mine, Ivan, and that you will use this gift of power in my aims and for the safety of all of Ravka. After all, you will need that power to protect Fedyor as well. So yes. I do grant my permission, so long as it comes matched with an equal promise to me. Be my good and faithful servant, and Fedyor will be yours, and always safe.”

“Yes, my lord.” When the general inclines his dark head the barest bit, Ivan goes briefly to one knee and kisses Kirigan’s offered hand. “Thank you, my lord.”

“Well then.” The general turns on a heel, cape whirling. “Shall we call David?”

“Now, my lord?”

“Were you planning on changing your mind?”

Ivan thinks of Fedyor waiting in the drawing room, probably climbing the walls with nervousness, and how he wants nothing more than to return to him and tell him that it is done, that he is not just the general’s trusted servant but his most favored confidante. “No, moi soverennyi,” he says. “Not in the least.”

---------------

“Does it hurt?” Fedyor slips his fingers through Ivan’s, lifting his right hand to examine the bear claw now permanently embedded in the back of it. It looks red and raw, as if still steaming from the heat of the ritual, but the curve of bone is cool under Fedyor’s fingers. It remains alien to him, but it is part of Ivan’s body now, an unbreakable symbol of the general’s trust in him, in them, and so Fedyor will learn to love it just the same. He bends his head, musing a kiss along Ivan’s bare shoulder. “It looks like it hurts.”

“Not bad,” Ivan says. “It’s a strange feeling, though. Like our usual power, but magnified, changed, more sensitive than I have ever experienced it. I could find your heartbeat across all of the Little Palace, I think.”

He raises his hand, playing his fingers experimentally, as Fedyor kisses his neck. They lie together in bed, their legs entangled, the curtains closed and the fire low, just this small, sweet oasis of solace in their dangerous and turbulent lives. Fedyor doesn’t know exactly what he was expecting to see when the door swung open and Ivan came out, clutching his right hand but wearing a triumphant expression, but this –

He is happy about it, obviously. He is thrilled. But he caught Kirigan’s eye over Ivan’s shoulder, and he read the unmistakable look there. I have given him to you, but only after I made sure to keep him for myself. It’s a dark thought, a little unsettling, and Fedyor does his best to put it out of his head. He is also a loyal soldier, he understands the logic of making sure that a powerful second-in-command does not get distracted from his primary allegiances at this delicate moment, and Kirigan did give them permission to marry. They will stand in a church together, under the gaze of all the Saints, and join their lives together the same as any other who have engaged in that sacred rite. That matters most.

Fedyor shifts, sliding halfway on top of Ivan, as Ivan wraps both arms around his waist and settles him there more firmly. They kiss and kiss until it turns to something else, a shared union in the dark, comfortable and familiar and delightful as ever. After, as Ivan dozes and Fedyor holds his bear-clawed hand, something like triumph rises up in him. He can’t help it.

You will never own him, he tells the shadows, in case their master is out there listening. Not truly. In the end, he will always belong to me.

#ivan x fedyor #heartrender husbands #fivan #anonymous #ask #fivan ff

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hwalilac · 2 years ago

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Hello dear! I saw your post before you deleted your original blog and wanted to write this up, because as someone who writes on this platform as well, I definitely have spent way too much time on here and have put way too much thoughts into the things you also wonder about. I know how it’s like when you feel like you have done everything right but still aren't getting the results that you want. It’s very frustrating, I would understand, because too many of my days have gone into constantly checking my notifications and being met with absolute disappointments.

But I think I’ve been here long enough? For me to get somewhat of a good grasp of how things work. So allow me to ramble on about a topic I definitely should have not spent that much time dissecting, but will do anyway.

Let’s establish some points here:

I don’t think it’s a secret to anyone that writing smut is the fastest and easiest way to gain followers. And no, that is not a jab at smut writers. I, myself, also write smuts. You will see that most fics with lots of notes contain smuts or is pwp. Why is that? Well, the obvious answer is that us humans are horny creatures lmao. Most of us want something quick and fulfilling, and usually, smut does that. Which is why 1k-2k word fics with smut will always get more notes than a 10k-20k fic with an actual story with some smut. This is significant for my next point.

That leads to the thought of, how come some authors, despite having less followers, have more/about the same interactions? Again, this is not a jab toward you, but is more of a base and theory that can potentially give you more ideas of your situation. I notice that you write a lot of short fics with smut which relates back to my first point--so that results in a large following gain. The problem is like you said, these people that follow you do not interact. Because good chances are, they just see you as another person who writes about sex, follow you, then go on their day. And although we should be grateful for all of our followers, in retrospect, these are not the ideal readers you want lol. What you want are loyal readers.

That’s why authors with less followers have more interactions. Because although they don’t have the notes or the numbers, they have a small group of people who are genuinely interested in their past, present, and future works. And I guarantee that any authors you can think of at the top of your head who have a group of loyal readers probably write series and they probably average in length about 50k-150k words, and each chapter word counts anywhere in between 5k to 20k. And I would say their works are usually a combination of smut and other kinds of genre that blends in just right. If not, most of their fics have a high word count with a lot of things going on.

These authors get the interactions because there’s a lot to discuss, especially with the word count (also if they update very often at least once every week or two). And I think that may also be what is preventing you from getting regular interactions, though if that’s what you’re comfortable writing you shouldn’t change anything to get a little validation in return.

But my point is, there will just be some authors who hits right in all areas. From the word count, to the genre, to the actual writing, and sometimes, it really is what it is. You should still always write what you want to write, because what’s the point if there’s no fun in it? Keep going and you may find your own little niche.

I have so many more little extra points or other contributing factors I can make, but this is already getting long enough. So have a good day!

I agree with what you said about how it’s just a quick read. Yeah I honestly don’t know what to reply with, but I’ll take these points into consideration for the future. I’m already planning on releasing my fics on AO3 as well, but I might try some other stuff.

#thx #ask

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asagimeta · 4 years ago

Text

Enhypen Theory- Ruins & Rituals

So I've been watching Given/Taken alot lately for writing purposes and am curious about something....

What's with the weird monument?

The beginning of the video starts with Jungwon standing in a desert with a bleeding nose, but we don't see this scenery again until the third "arc" of the music video, when the rest of the boys join him and immitate firing arrows at this broken monument of some kind- we later see them at night, dressed in their uniforms, dancing in front of it- though before this Jungwon is seen again slowly burning from (presumably) the sunlight

But... what is it? What's the significance and why does the video open there? Why are they firing arrows? There are just so many questions and I, personally, haven't really seen this part of G/T addressed yet so I'm going to take a shot at it for my first HYBE theory! (I actually have been *following* HYBE theories for a few months now but I'm new to K-Pop in general so I've been quiet until now)

First, it's important to note that it stands out as odd from the rest of the video

The beginning and middle of the video have two primary locations with similar but still considerably different vibes-

Old fashioned clothes, indoors, a sense of containment and "other"ness, even though they aren't the same, you can still feel the connection to eachother- but that's completely removed in the desert scenes, wich are outdoors, in modern clothing, and present the boys with more individuality (IE: lacking uniforms)

And it makes me wonder if the ruins they're visiting are of their old testing facility

Let me break it down a bit better-

The two primary locations we see other than these ruins are a mansion-wich I'll, possibly incorrectly, refer to as "the orphanage" henceforth- and a testing/containment/research facility of some sort

At first I wondered if the ruins were simply the orphanage but that's clearly not the case as you can see the exterior of the mansion in one of the snapshots early on, it's very different looking- even the shape is extremely different, and it seems to be in a forest just below a hill, not in the middle of a desert

What about the other place though? The facility- as I'll call it from here on- doesn't have the same deniability

In fact, we see a very similarly shaped building to the ruins during one of the snapshots, but we don't have any clear indication of what it is, why would it just randomly be there? Unless, ofcourse, it isn't random

Initially I assumed the orphanage and the facility were the same place because the boys are wearing the uniforms in both locations, but I'm starting to think that isn't the case, and that the boys were moved to the facility after being experimented on at the orphanage

The thing is that vampires don't always turn when they're given the venom/virus/blood/whatever-it-is-that-turns them, and when this substance is manmade or engineered somehow, it takes even less frequently, this is true of all supernaturals, and again, is emphasized when the people attempting to make the transitions are humans experimenting with forces beyond their understanding, so it's typical of these practioners to have large "sample sizes" of potential experiments, often turning to hospitals, schools, and orphanages (to name a few) seeking the few candidates that can survive and thrive under these new conditions- from there they'll experiment on all of them until they get the desired result, and those select few will move on in the process to the next step

Sound familiar at all? I think this is further representative of the idol industry

We know that a big theme of Enhypen's storyline is going against the toxic nature of the idol industry, with songs like "Not For Sale" and "Mixed Up", and themes like being museum or display peices in "Let Me In", and the process of a large group of young boys being picked through and groomed until there are only a few left standing, who are then taken away from the "orphanage" and brought to a more intense experimentation/testing facility, sounds alot like idol-potentials who are on talent shows, win, and then assigned to a group and agency who put them through intense preperation for their debut

We know Enhypen went through that exact process on I-Land, so it's not a stretch to say this may be what they're referencing

But back to the ruins

You can see a definite difference in the way the orphanage looks vs the facility, wile the orphanage is a western style mansion that looks like it came from the late Victorian era- though, as Laina Sunflower pointed out, it does seem to have some modern conveniences like pen lights and electric fans- (the person conducting the experiments is also wearing a face mask, wich looks more modern from what I can tell)

-the facility is seemingly more modern than that, and has a much less homey feel, resembling instead a more containment type of vibe- large areas of open space, large glass windows dividing one from another, and the boys all seem to have their own rooms to keep separated from eachother, very unlike the mansion where you can probably safely assume that they share rooms, as unlike the sleek, minimal style of the facility, is cluttered with children's toys, furnishings, and accents, and you get the vibe that the boys are allowed around eachother often, the entire feel is more casual, and considering the number of tables in the dining room, you can also safely assume that there are many more inhabitants of the orphanage than just Enhypen themselves, meaning that it's more likely they share rooms

We know what the outside of the mansion looks like, but we don't have as definitive of a space for the facility

Wile the tower in the snapshot is a bit different in shape from the ruins, they're similar enough, and the landscape is notably perfect for a facility containing baby vampires- a barren desert devoid of the one thing they need most (blood) and full of the one thing that can most harm them (sunlight), it would be like keeping Superman in a chamber beneath the red sun surrounded by kryptonite, there's very little chance of them escaping

There's also something particularly strange about the ruins, in that there's a LADDER hanging off of one side leading to the top of the facility

The entire set up reminds me of the vampire facility in True Blood, and I wouldn't be surprised if the facility had this peculiar setup to make it even more difficult on the boys to possibly escape, I wouldn't even be surprised if these ruins are only a small portion of what's been left, maybe the original facility was a little in tune with the building from the snapshots before whatever happened to it... happened

There's also some other things I want to point out with this line of thought-

Sunghoon is kept in a room filled with orange light at one point, sitting on the edge of a bathtub-?- when his hand catches on fire

Some have theorized that this is Sunghoon's power, just like other boys have the power to levitate, hypnotize, and teleport, but what if that isn't it? What if that was the facility testing him in a room full of manufactured sunlight to see if he indeed burns in the sun? True Blood, again, has a similar theme (and it wouldn't be unusual for HYBE to draw influences from other popular media, what with TXT's frequent Harry Potter references)

Additionally, could this be in part about their escape from the facility? We see the boys make a running motion as though they're trying to get away, only to stop

We see something almost exactly the same in "Fever", but this time they succeed in seeming to go through the door to their freedom

I also wonder if the Victorian style clothing vs the French Roccoco style clothing is meant to show that there was a large gap between the time they were originally imprisoned and the time they got out?

This also fits with "Drunk Dazed", we see the mystery woman before the boys, still in their Rococo style clothes, performing a "ritual of blood" by pouring blood into the fountain, could the boys have been rescued, found, or "adopted" by **real** vampires after their, probable, human experiments? If the French Rococo style represents the boys during their escape period, this could make senses, and could also serve to explain, to a degree, their blood festivities in the first place

This doesn't make alot of sense though in terms of timing as the Victorian era is around two hundred years *after* the French Rococo period, so unless it's symbolic....

But I've wondered about the weird contrast between the boys being experimented into vampirism vs being turned naturally, as the mystery woman seems to heavily implicate that she herself is a vampire and that she's showing the boys a "natural" ritual, something that's part of the vampire community/species/way of life, but this is a giant contrast to the more clinical, experimentation vibe of what the boys had been going through in their orphanage/facility days; I'm reminded again of True Blood here, as well as "Bitten", "Servamp" (the manga), and plenty of others where the older, stronger vampires (or werewolves) free the younger ones from human captivity

Things I still haven't figured out or that I find most notable:

-Jungwon seems seperated from the others the most here, he's the one at the beginning with the nosebleed and the one catching on fire- something that doesn't happen to any of the other boys- and in one of the flashbacks he's the one standing outside of the orphanage banging on the window as the others go about their routines, and in “Fever” he’s the one left behind/last in line when everyone is running towards the door, he seems to be the "main" charector in Given/Taken, as he's the last one on screen revealing what everyone suspected: that they're vampires; he's also the one with teleportation, most prominantely seen in Drunk/Dazed, flittering around outside the room where Sunoo is pouring his blood into his glass and coming in between the two groups of three who, according again to Laina Sunflower, seem to be at odds with eachother

-Sunoo is also the one seen to be biting (or attempting to bite) Jungwon, this could be a really interesting nod to their relationship, the two seem to be connected in a special way (is this why Jungwon is outside Sunoo’s room in Drunk/Dazed, flittering around anxiously as though he’s not sure what to do with himself or isn’t sure what to do about something that’s bothering him?) Could Sunoo have been responsible for turning Jungwon, or maybe completing his transformation? Or even just feeding off of him, wich, in some lore, creates a special bond between two vampires?

-Speaking of Drunk/Dazed, we see the mansion reappear during their first "bloody birthday party"- when there was only one candle on the cake- does this mean that they celebrated their life as vampires before being transferred to the facility? Were they vampires for a fair amount of time- several months or maybe even a year or two- before being taken away?

-Why are they immitating firing arrows? They don't seem to be *actually* doing this, just mimicking it, why expose themselves to the sun just for something symbolic? Is it a repetition of something they've done before? Did they originally destroy the facility themselves? Or it it something else..?

If anyone has any ideas definitely let me know, HYBE is my new favorite thing for theorizing!

#enhypen #enhypen theory #hybe #hybe universe #kpop #kpop theory #hybe theory #hybe universe theory #dark moon with enhypen

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wisteria-lodge · 3 years ago

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snake primary + snake secondary (bird model)

Hello! I recently discovered your blog and really love the thought you’ve put into the nuances of the SHC system. I’m super into these kinds of personality analysis systems (I’ve probably been through them all at this point) because I think it’s interesting to know how people tick - I also think self-awareness is important so that you know why you do what you do, essentially. I took the SHC quiz and it told me I was a Snake Primary with a Bird Model, and a Bird Secondary with a Snake Model. I agree that I’m probably a (somewhat petrified) Snake Primary with a strong Bird Model, but I’m not sure which is my true secondary and which is the model. Maybe you can help?

I can sure try :)

Some things about me: I’m an oldest daughter, and I’m almost 100% sure my dad is a Bird Snake and I *idolized* him as a child - I thought he had it all figured out. He was the Zeus to my Athena in my child’s eyes, and I think I got my Bird primary model very early from copying him.

I mean, I know what you mean in a “sole creator” sense, but there is no *way* Athena thought Zeus had it all figured out.

My two younger brothers are a Lion Snake and a Lion Badger, and my mother is possibly a Double Badger, though I’m not as sure about her - maybe she just thinks that she *should* be a Double Badger. I think all that is important to help illustrate that I didn’t really feel *at home* when I was with my family, though I loved them, since I was the only Snake. My parents also had a terrible relationship and are now divorced, so there’s that as well. I think the only time I have ever been truly morally outraged was the revelation that my dad had engaged in infidelity against my mom, and then again when he started dragging his feet over a promise the he had made my youngest brother. We didn’t speak for a long time after that incident, but I was really cut up over dropping him.

Oh yeah. That’s very Snake primary. Morally outraged because your People are getting hurt.

We eventually started to reconcile, and the only reason we did was because he called and said he was driving through my city one day, and even after all of that, I said yes to meeting up because I felt sad that I had dropped him. I think this family dynamic, plus some other childhood stuff, led to me sort of “checking out” and petrifying pretty early.

Just a theory - I think it’s possible that this hit your secondary more than it hit your primary. You seem pretty strong and confident in your Snake primary so far. Even the fact that you can identify it coming from such a non-Snake environment, and don’t feel guilty about it, is big.

I had a lot of trouble making friends in school.

I’m thinking this might be more of a secondary thing.

and generally ended up with like one friend who was the other weird girl, and who I always sort of kept at arm’s length emotionally. I moved schools several times as a kid and after the first best friend (who was the daughter of my mom’s best friend and was like a sister to me until she moved away), I really didn’t try too hard to make new “best” friends.

Hmm. See, this reads like a *default* friend to me, not a friend of choice. The other weird girl. The daughter of your mom’s friend. That’s an easy friend to have… and not one that you necessarily sought out. I’m not surprised that your primary didn’t latch onto her with that Snake intensity.

Even now, though I definitely have concentric circles of loyalty and a significant other who is my “top person”, I’m not sure I have that blind Snake I-would-literally-die-for-you loyalty toward anyone - I’d kill or hide a body for my top circles

That *is* Snake loyalty. Snakes aren’t going to die for someone else, are you kidding? That’s a sucker’s game. They value themselves too much.

I would give up a lot of my own comfort for my significant other. Maybe I’m just afraid to let myself feel that unquestioning loyalty, though I want to feel it, or maybe I’m really a Bird and just want to be a Snake because that would mean I could be un-broken eventually.

Let’s talk about your secondary, I want to hear about how you think you’re broken, because so far you seem fine. Congrats on the SO!

I don’t think I’m an Idealist though - I’m surrounded by them and I know I don’t care about “principles” the way they do. Then again, maybe I’m a Bird whose truth is that moral relativism is the truth lol. Anyway, I think for my primary, I’m probably a petrified Snake with a Bird model unless I’m totally wrong about myself.

I think you’re just a Snake who… is a Snake.

(you’ve got that Birdy influence though, from your dad, and they do like to complicate things.)

As for my secondary, I loved to read (everything - all kinds of fiction, especially sci-fi/fantasy/mystery and, like, Victorian sci-fi/horror adventures, nature books, medical texts, etc. Wikipedia was a revelation when it came out), and I was smart and good at taking tests and knowing the answers in school, so at a certain point I think I just defaulted to being “the smart one” and used that as armor to help keep people from getting too close.

yep yep yep, welcome to the ‘fun Bird model’ club, we have snacks

I do genuinely love to learn, and I’ve always been known among friends and family as the one who either knows the answer or will look it up. I love pop culture trivia and nature facts. I also love and am good at debate, but not really when real feelings are involved - I more love the “battle of wits” aspect, where I can match up against a person to see if my knowledge and ability to adapt my argument on the fly can stump them.

I also would argue the unpopular point, or the point I didn’t agree with, just for sport. Fun Bird secondary model.

I developed terrible anxiety and probably some depression as well in high school.

Okay, now I’m seeing the problem.

and now that I’m older, I suspect that I may have ADHD, though I haven’t been officially assessed. I didn’t discover my executive function issues really until college, when suddenly being smart and being able to figure out the test answers through context clues and what I remembered from lectures and readings + whatever trivia I had gathered about the topic wasn’t enough anymore.

I suspect you’re right about being ADHD. Or at least being neruodivergent.

I am horrible at studying! I would plan out my study sessions and make these nice little cheat sheets (these were allowed on exams) and they didn’t work at all! I did very well in my literature minor though, because all the graded assignments were papers rather than open-answer tests, and I could get my thoughts out better and with more resources at my disposal if I forgot something and needed to go back to the book to check.

Oh ouch. Yeah, I’m not even relating this back to a secondary, because I’m reading this as a working memory thing? Like ugh tests are such a terrible way access knowledge. What is even the *point* of memorization anymore? You should have been able to have a college career that was completely writing papers, like I did.

I was at one point very jealous of my Lion Snake brother, who I felt could do “whatever he wanted” with minimal consequences, while I always felt constrained by being “good” and not rocking the boat too much with my family.

Yep. That’s being an oldest daughter.

I couldn’t understand why he didn’t seem to care about being considerate to everyone else in the household (especially my chronically overworked, can’t-say-no Badger mom lol).

It’s because he’s the youngest. Mine’s the same.

This attitude was definitely influenced by my anxiety issues at that time, since I had (and still have) a lot of trouble asking for anything - help, permission, whatever. I’d rather do things and explore on my own, without anyone watching, so I don’t have to ask and don’t have to explain.

Did you low-key raise your younger siblings? Because it sounds like you raised your siblings.

I feel better with a little bit of distance, and definitely wear masks in most situations. I’d say my masks are half conscious and half reactive - I do have some idea of how I’d like to be perceived, but it’s only kind of systematic.

That makes me think Snake or Badger secondary.

I have a few “characters” that I use as touchpoints when I’m going into a new situation, but once I’m there I mostly just act nice and funny and see what happens.

So far I’m going with Badger secondary (be nice and and assume it’ll be fine is very badger) with a fun Bird secondary model, that you can do an Actor Bird thing with. Although liking to “just see what happens” is pretty snake.

The characters are really just costumes I use to give off a certain first impression, although I do really like the costumes and find them fun. I love clothes, makeup, and perfume too, because I enjoy the idea of making multidimensional costumes for different settings. I actually enjoy the mask a lot of the time - I have tattoos that are purposefully in places that I can cover easily, because I enjoy the idea that there’s something under the professional mask that people only know about if I show them. I’m a bit socially awkward I think (I repeat myself and talk a lot), but most people tend to either like me or tolerate me, and I don’t get into a lot of interpersonal conflicts.

Hm. Either Courtier Badger or Snake secondary, fun Bird secondary model. However. Especially after talking about your Actor Bird in such fun, positive, happy language… I am going to call you out for “socially awkward” and “people tolerate me.” Which tells me you don’t have as much faith in your social skill set, and it’s *maybe* a little burnt.

(Also, not to get too armchair psychologist tell-me-about-your-mother, but if your mom has a “chronically overworked, can’t-say-no” Badger secondary… that’s going to affect how you see Badger secondaries.)

Right now I work in a very Badger/Bird workplace, and it’s really a terrible fit, even though I can squeak by enough to fool my superiors into thinking I’m doing a good job.

oh we’ve got some imposter syndrome, that can also be a burnt secondary thing.

It’s all long-term planning and daily maintenance tasks, and I really don’t like it. I change most of my plans partway through, but I’m not sure if it’s because I’m really an improvisational secondary at heart, or if I’m truly a Bird that’s just bad at planning for all of the variables.

I’m going to say you’re not a Bird. Making cheat-sheets (which is a very Bird secondary strategy) also did not work, and you feel confined by, not comforted by plans. You’re not a Lion, you enjoy keeping your true self to yourself too much. You could be either a Badger or Snake. And if you really hate daily maintenance tasks… that could be coming from a few places, but it makes me lean Snake.

I love being in situations where I can iterate on a plan, or make a new plan on the fly. I love escape rooms and am pretty good at them; I still get stumped and need hints sometimes, but when I *get* a puzzle, it sort of just clicks for me? I don’t think in a very linear way and am not a good chess player, but I also have never studied chess so perhaps I just am at a knowledge disadvantage in that game.

This is also you using Bird to have fun, and we know you *love* using Bird to have fun.

One of my proudest moments

okay this is definitely going to be helpful

was when I was on a day trip with my significant other, and we needed to find a place to buy food quickly so we wouldn’t miss a specific ferry and then a specific bus - we were on an island, and near the ferry station the restaurants were all too expensive and we were worried they would take too long anyway. He was starting to get frazzled, but I was able to think on my feet, and we just grabbed a calming beer (lol) at a creepy neighborhood bar, then got on the ferry and bought microwave meals at a 7-Eleven by the bus station. It was awesome and I was very proud of myself for staying calm and looking around myself for options.

Well that is VERY Snake secondary.

I generally take a long time making decisions when it’s not a crisis situation, because I have to *weigh all the options*, but I often end up in analysis paralysis. Crunch time is where I really shine as a decision-maker.

Snake again. From what I’m seeing, your Bird is a fantastic toy, but actually kind of makes you miserable when you have to depend on it for the important stuff. (studying, your job, making important decisions)

All of this long post is to say, I’m not sure whether my Bird secondary is a fun model that got repurposed into an executive dysfunction compensation tool and anxiety/depression soother to supplement my Snake secondary

I think you hit the nail straight on the head right there.

or if Bird is my true secondary and Snake is a model that I learned from my dad and brother + characters I admire in media

oh your favorite characters are Snake secondaries are they? That’s a big tell.

and that I use when I fail to plan adequately given my executive dysfunction.

Executive dysfunction is a whole thing, but you don’t have to “”plan adequately”” for everything.

I find both fun and both useful, but I’m not sure which is innate and which is the model!

My money is on snake secondary, Bird secondary model.

#submission #sortinghatchats #wisteria sorts #sortme #double snake #snake primary #snake secondary #bird secondary model #family dynamics

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bestworstcase · 5 years ago

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a comprehensive guide to zhan tiri’s lore or, it’s not that confusing or contradictory, i promise

first things first: if you are somebody who pays attention to creator interviews and you are interested in canonical zhan tiri lore, i want you to gather up everything you’ve ever heard chris say about zhan tiri and erase it from of your brain. i know he’s made statements regarding his interpretation of her backstory but this post was made by death of the author gang and we are interested ONLY in what is stated and shown in the text itself. meaning belongs to the viewers, and creator interpretation is irrelevant.

ready? let’s go!

who or what is zhan tiri?

zhan tiri’s first appearance in coronan history occurred thousands of years ago; in plus est en vous, rapunzel specifies two thousand, but every other mention of zhan tiri as a historical figure is “eons” or “millennia,” and the most objective source we have—the plus est flashback—is marked “thousands of years ago.”

there is no direct evidence to suggest that she existed prior to this, but i think there is enough circumstantial support for this theory to conclude that she did: namely, the existence of idols and other religious iconography associated with her name. my reasoning here is as follows:

the plus est en vous flashback shows demanitus banishing zhan tiri to the lost realm. this makes it—give or take a few years—the last point in time when zhan tiri would have been free and thus able to make any lasting cultural impact.

it follows that any relevant historical artifacts we see must predate the plus est flashback, as they represent a time when zhan tiri had a significant enough cultural impact to fuel their creation.

moreover, though sugracha and tromus are the only disciples of zhan tiri who directly appear in the series, it is implied that there are many more:

Lord Demanitus was in a constant battle with Zhan Tiri and his brethren. Over the years, Demanitus captured many of the evil spirits and held them prisoner in that chamber. (S1, Painter’s Block)

much of the coronan folklore concerning the demanitus-zhan tiri relationship is... wrong, but due to sugracha’s verifiable imprisonment in the demanitus chamber, i feel it reasonable to conclude that this tidbit is correct in that there are, or at least were, other disciples held inside the demanitus chamber. and, as with the historical artifacts associated with zhan tiri, it is logical to conclude that whatever cult produced these disciples predated the plus est flashback.

so, we’ve established the historical artifacts and iconography associated with zhan tiri came before the plus est flashback, but what exactly does that entail, and what does it tell us about zhan tiri’s true nature?

icons of zhan tiri: an overview

#1: janus point

janus point is a henge, and based on the iconography—the ram’s head symbol is plastered all over the jardinière and the henge pillars—it appears to be a site dedicated specifically to zhan tiri. the same symbol also appears on the seal in which sugracha’s spirit was trapped inside the demanitus chamber and is unique in that the muzzle appears to corkscrew.

the appearance of the henge evokes a quasi-religious flavor, and in who’s afraid of the big bad wolf, rapunzel refers to the site as a “mystical ground.” at the very least, this is a ritual site that was heavily associated with zhan tiri, and it would not be much of a stretch to conclude she was outright worshipped here.

#2: the spire idol

this artifact appears in both the keeper of the spire and race to the spire. it’s a small stone idol kept in the spire’s... gatehouse, for lack of a better term, and it depicts the basic ram-headed hulking demon zhan tiri. nothing is said about it in either episode.

#3: the tree of zhan tiri

there is zhan tiri iconography all over this tree.

the stone ram’s head over the entrance...

...the bas-relief in the first chamber...

...more ram’s heads over all the interior archways and the scroll shelves...

...and a return of the corkscrew-snouted ram’s head from janus point on the altar for this glorious oversized flytrap.

#4: the shell house

tromus’s shrine gives us yet another variation on the ram’s head symbol as well as another full-body idol and also, though i didn’t get a screenshot of it because it’s hard to see with the way tumblr resizes images, a little ram’s head symbol on the clasp of his robes.

so where did this imagery come from?

with the exception of the spire idol, there is evidence to suggest that zhan tiri herself had direct influence over the design of all this iconography.

janus point seems to have held some importance to zhan tiri herself; when she appears to varian in cassandra’s revenge, she surrounds herself with pieces of it and superimposes her own head on top of the tree.

further, the corkscrew-snouted ram’s head reoccurs at the great tree, which is unique among the sites associated with her in that we know zhan tiri actually resided there for what sounds like a significant amount of time; according to the legend adira shares, the great tree was zhan tiri’s “stronghold.”

this means that it’s plausible that either (a) zhan tiri herself shaped the symbols on display in the tree, or (b) they were modeled after her by her contemporaries. the interesting thing about this, there are four distinct variations on the ram’s head symbol inside the tree: 1) long, thick snout with elongated horns; 2) angular, no snout, short horns, 3) corkscrew-snouted, and 4) humanlike skull with ram horns.

and likewise, the iconography inside the shell house was created by someone we know to have been a contemporary of zhan tiri’s; tromus was one of the students of demanitus who turned against him to join zhan tiri instead, and it is logical to assume that he did, in fact, see zhan tiri in the flesh at some point—and his ram’s head design is yet again different.

this begs the question: if all five of these designs were modeled on zhan tiri herself, why is there such variety in the basic shape? i believe this is a strong point in favor of considering zhan tiri a shapeshifter who chose and stuck with a single general form for long periods of time but casually and frequently modified the smaller details. and in fact, we do see her do this in season three, with the most notable occurrence being. this:

so, we have concluded that:

zhan tiri’s historical iconography predates the plus est flashback, and

accurately represented her physical appearance from that time

from this, the only reasonable conclusion is that zhan tiri is a shapeshifter, who spent a considerable amount of time in the giant, ram-headed demon form depicted in all of her pre-demanitus iconography.

but she’s human in the plus est flashback!

in the series, human characters are designed with a wide diversity of shapes and sizes, but their color palettes stay within the range of realism, with natural skin tones and eye/hair colors. zhan tiri is... not like that.

she may be human-shaped, but her color palette sits drastically outside the norms the series has established for human characters; her skin is dead white, her hair is a dull lilac color, her eyes are bright purple with a circle of gold around the pupils. none of these are natural human colors.

there is precedent in the series for marked changes in appearance and coloration as a result of meddling with magical forces: when cassandra claims the moonstone, it turns her hair and eyes bright blue and gives her an unhealthy-looking pallor. rapunzel’s hair, likewise, turns gold due to the sundrop’s influence. thus, taking this in isolation, it wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibility to conclude that zhan tiri, too, has had her appearance altered by whatever magical nonsense she’s been mucking around with.

however, if we look at this design in the context of the conclusions we’ve already drawn about her historical iconography and what that tells us about her true nature, i think a much simpler and more plausible explanation is that zhan tiri, being a shapeshifter, donned this humanlike form in order to get closer to demanitus. there could be any number of reasons for doing so—considering demanitus’s fixation on seeking the drops for the right reasons, i would imagine creating some distance from the malevolent monster form in order to gain his trust would have played a role in this decision.

five final points in favor of shapeshifting

#1: zhan tiri in the lost realm

we see in plus est en vous that the lost realm causes absurd magical mutations in people who are trapped there. varian theorizes that these mutations could become irreversible if they stay in the lost realm for long enough, but given that they are all freed shortly thereafter and the changes revert, there is no concrete evidence for or against this theory.

still, this raises an interesting question: if the lost realm mutates anyone who enters it, and if these changes become irreversible after long periods of time what would happen if a shapeshifter was trapped there for thousands of years?

when zhan tiri escapes from the lost realm, she isn’t all that different in appearance from when she entered it. she’s much smaller. her hairstyle has changed a bit. she lost the bag at some point. but that’s... really it. it’s a much less drastic alteration than we see happening with the coronans, who are shown transforming into objects and animals, with their bodies distorted, or with pieces of themselves becoming detached and floating away. and these changes also serve her manipulation of cass by making her appear small, weak, and harmless, so it isn’t out of the realm of possibility for zhan tiri to have chosen this form for herself.

i think it is reasonable to assume that zhan tiri, being a shapeshifter herself, was able to, if not outright resist whatever magic in the lost realm causes these mutations, at least “fix” them as they happened. her brief appearance in painter’s block supports the idea that she retained the ability to shapeshift while inside the lost realm, since she appears there as the ram-headed demon.

#2: her shapeshifting disciples

both tromus and sugracha are able to appear human, and sugracha states that she can take “many forms” in painter’s block. though it’s never explained where they got this power, it is reasonable to conclude that they received it from zhan tiri—she is their master, and the implication very much seems to be that it was she who gave them their creepy green spirit form of immortality.

and, if zhan tiri is handing out powers of shapeshifting to her minions, it follows that she must be capable of shapeshifting herself, too.

#3: gremlin zhan tiri’s demonic shadow

this shows up in cassandra’s revenge and plus est en vous and seems to straightforwardly suggest that zhan tiri’s true nature is closer to the ram-headed demon, with the humanlike form being more of a disguise.

#4: we see her shapeshift in plus est en vous.

she briefly loses her grip on the humanlike nature of the gremlin form when rapunzel blasts her with the sundrop, as i noted above. and later—once she has the drops in hand and the gremlin form has no further use to her—she sheds it altogether to return to yet another variation on the ram-headed demon, albeit one that looks more... monkey than ram:

#5: and finally, zhan tiri herself says so

in race to the spire:

I believe Cassandra promised us a proper introduction, but she failed to deliver, didn’t she? Frankly, I’m surprised you hadn’t guessed who I am—seeing as how we’ve already met, in a way. You see, over the centuries, I’ve taken the form of whatever suits my needs: a warlock, a demon... even a blizzard.

she also portrays herself as the ram-headed demon in the vision she gives to cassandra in once a handmaiden:

now... zhan tiri is a liar, and if these were statements given in isolation of any supporting evidence, i would be skeptical. however, when all the evidence in the text points toward zhan tiri being a shapeshifting entity as the most logical explanation for everything we see of her throughout the series, i’m inclined to take her corroborating statements as a factual confirmation.

in conclusion: zhan tiri is, and has always been, a shapeshifter. if she has a “true” form, the evidence points toward it being the large, ram-headed, tentacled demon, while the humanlike shape(s) we see in season three are forms she assumed to ingratiate herself to demanitus and, later, cassandra.

what’s the timeline with her and lord demanitus?

time in this series is fuzzy. this applies not only to zhan tiri and demanitus, but to every historical event discussed by the characters and the timespans covered by each season, where the only time markers are the lantern festivals that celebrate rapunzel’s nineteenth, twentieth, and twenty-first birthdays and a few throwaway lines about the passage of months. thus, there is no way to say with absolute certainly when any specific event in zhan tiri’s backstory occurred chronologically. we have to do our best to arrange the events we know about in an order that is logical.

this is complicated by the fact that we know demanitus fudged some of the details to make himself look better to rapunzel and eugene: he obscured the fact that he and zhan tiri were working partners for an unknown length of time. this verifiable lie of omission casts a patina of doubt over everything else he says regarding their shared past, but it also accounts for discrepancies between what we see and what we’re told.

as always in unreliable narrator situations, what we see has far more weight than what we’re told. with this in mind, there are three tiers of trustworthiness in the information we are given about zhan tiri’s past: most trustworthy are the flashbacks and things we see with our own eyes; in the middle are the accounts of zhan tiri’s contemporaries—demanitus and the disciples; and at the bottom are the folk legends recounted by xavier and adira.

so what do we see?

#1: zhan tiri and demanitus searched for the drops together

just how this arrangement came to be is unclear, but i think we can glean some interesting information from the plus est flashback.

DEMANITUS: Zhan Tiri! This is your last warning! Give up this foolish quest for power.

ZHAN TIRI: This quest for the sundrop and moonstone was both of ours.

DEMANITUS: It was, until you made it about something darker. You made it all about gaining power for yourself! You turned your back on what was right!

ZHAN TIRI: And you turned your back on me. As long as I live, I will never stop until I have that power!

DEMANITUS: I know.

[He activates the portal to the Lost Realm.]

ZHAN TIRI: This is far from over! I will have that power, and when I do, I will destroy your beloved Corona! I promise you!

[The portal closes.]

DEMANITUS: I had no choice, Vigor. I had to send her to the Lost Realm.

this suggests a couple things.

first, the working relationship between demanitus and zhan tiri broke down because her selfish desire for power clashed with his idealism. demanitus didn’t want the power of the combined sundrop and moonstone for himself; he wanted to reunite them in the service of a cause he believed to be right. zhan tiri, by contrast, was interested solely in acquiring that power for herself—but given how demanitus reacted when he learned this, it seems obvious that he didn’t know that about zhan tiri until later in their relationship.

in other words, there was some level of deceit on her part involved with their partnership from the very beginning. she hid her true motives from him; she may also have hidden her true nature from him. i think there is support both for and against the latter point: in the present day, demanitus describes zhan tiri as “a warlock”—a word zhan tiri uses as an example of her duplicitous shapeshifting—but he also describes her as being “from another realm”—suggesting he knew her to be something otherworldly or inhuman.

i tend to fall on the side of demanitus knowing her basic nature while they were contemporaries, but believing she shared his more noble motivations at first, but i think a strong argument could be made in favor of him believing her to be human from the start and only discovering her true nature later.

second, demanitus appears to have cared for zhan tiri far more than she cared for him. in the flashback, she’s angry at his betrayal, but her focus is on her desire for the power of the sundrop and moonstone. by contrast, demanitus gives her plenty of warning and chances to turn away from her dark path, pleads with her to “give up” her selfish motivations, and expresses clear regret after her refusal forces him to banish her to the lost realm.

this, again, supports the interpretation that zhan tiri manipulated or used demanitus to further her own goals, just as she would later do with cassandra, rather than this being a true partnership that broke down as a result of differing goals. she doesn’t care about him any more than she cared about cass.

#2: zhan tiri’s behavior in season three

season three firmly establishes zhan tiri as a skilled manipulator who does not care about anyone or anything besides herself and her pursuit of her own power. i won’t get into the weeds with this—if you want to read a breakdown of (some) of zhan tiri’s manipulation of cass in season three, i wrote a post about once a handmaiden here—because for our purposes, we just need to understand that the basic character of zhan tiri as we see her in the present should inform our interpretation of her behavior in the past.

in other words, i think it is safe to assume that zhan tiri applied similar techniques and principles of manipulation to demanitus as we see her do to cassandra in the present; to wit, she would have sought to make him emotionally dependent on her by exploiting whatever vulnerabilities she could find and presenting herself to him as a trustworthy friend and kindred spirit.

#3: she is not close to her disciples

once she is freed, zhan tiri never so much as mentions tromus or sugracha again. moreover, it is unclear how much personal information they actually know about her: in painter’s block, sugracha refers to zhan tiri as “he,” which could indicate one of several things:

zhan tiri is female, but her disciples don’t know her well enough for assumptions they made about her gender based on the appearance of the ram-headed demon form to have been corrected, or

zhan tiri doesn’t subscribe to human conceptualizations of gender, and both “she” and “he” are acceptable pronouns because the gendered connotations of both are equally irrelevant.

i, personally, prefer the second explanation, but the first is tenuously supported by how little zhan tiri cares for her disciples.

what do her contemporaries say?

lord demanitus’s telling of his conflict with zhan tiri is as follows:

Millennia ago, a mysterious event in the heavens divided an ancient power in two. The sundrop and moonstone fell to the earth. Three of my pupils and I researched the legend of the sundrop and moonstone, two elements that longed to reunite. We searched, but alas could not find them.

Unfortunately, we were not the only ones looking. My pupils betrayed me, and summoned my old nemesis, Zhan Tiri: a warlock from another realm, bent on destruction. It took all of my powers to banish the evil from our world.

I knew the research I had written about the sundrop and moonstone was valuable. Dangerous, in evil hands. So I tore the scroll and hid the pieces...

this exposition also shows us the identities of the three pupils who turned against demanitus and joined zhan tiri instead: sugracha, tromus, and gothel.

their identities are all confirmed outside of this sequence: sugracha and tromus appear as loyal servants of zhan tiri, and in a tale of two sisters, rapunzel and cassandra discover gothel’s research on the sundrop flower, including a piece that is an obvious attempt to recreate the demanitus scroll, indicating that gothel was indeed his student at one time:

though it appears that gothel abandoned zhan tiri as well once she found the sundrop flower, as she hoarded its power for herself rather than seeking to use it to free her former master from the lost realm.

now... because demanitus leaves out the part of this story that would involve admitting he worked with zhan tiri before she became his “nemesis,” we can’t say with any certainty when this business with his traitorous pupils freeing her happened—or, indeed, if it actually happened that way at all. it isn’t out of the realm of possibility that the three disciples could have been pupils of both demanitus and zhan tiri, who stuck with zhan tiri after demanitus betrayed her and banished her to the lost realm.

my personal belief is that demanitus gathered his pupils to help him continue the search for the sundrop and moonstone after the flashback in plus est, only for them to be lured away by zhan tiri (perhaps via communication in dreams or visions, as cassandra’s revenge establishes that she’s capable of entering people’s dreams whilst trapped in the lost realm) and free her by reactivating the portal—thus shifting demanitus’s focus from “find the sundrop and moonstone” to “put the demon back in her prison and clean up this mess.”

however, this is all very up for personal interpretation, because demanitus’s version of events is verifiably deceptive and thus cannot be taken as hard fact.

and what do the folk legends say?

#1: the blizzard

Eons ago, an evil warlock, Zhan Tiri, had a deep hatred for Corona, and cast a spell which caused a blizzard to sweep across the land. The storm destroyed everything in its path. All would have been lost, had it not been for the ancient engineer and inventor, Lord Demanitus.

Using both magic and science, Demanitus built a massive subterranean machine deep in the Coronan mountains. This mighty device had the ability to change the direction of the wind, and it pushed the flurries out to the sea. The day was saved. Zhan Tiri had indeed been defeated. But some say the curse of the storm lives on, and is simply waiting to strike again...

we know that the basic event described here really happened, because the demanitus device does exist in the location indicated by the legend and works just as described. the details may have been glossed over or elaborated on over the centuries, but we know it is accurate in the essentials.

until recently, i put the events described in this legend immediately before the plus est flashback, to account for the snow on the ground during the flashback, but over the course of writing this post i have actually changed my own mind, and i now think that zhan tiri’s blizzard occurred when the disciples freed her from the lost realm for the first time. why? well, the imagery used to illustrate xavier’s telling of the blizzard legend is directly echoed by the imagery used to illustrate zhan tiri’s release in demanitus’s account in lost and found:

queen for a day.

and lost and found.

the color palettes here are identical, and in both, zhan tiri is depicted as the ram-headed demon, in almost the same pose, rising out of the mountains—which fits with both the location of the demanitus device and the possibility that she created (or became) the blizzard immediately after being released from the portal in the coronan mountains. moreover, her hatred of corona is based on her hatred of demanitus and her vengeful desire to destroy everything he loves, which would logically be stronger after he successfully imprisoned her once.

#2: the great tree

Millennia ago, this tree was once a sentient being, a force for good. But it was corrupted by the evil sorcerer [Zhan Tiri] to destroy any who approached it. It was Zhan Tiri’s stronghold. Inside it, he was invincible. But Lord Demanitus put a stop to the tree’s magic using an enchanted spear.

as with xavier’s blizzard legend, the fact of the spear’s existence and the behavior of the great tree itself once the spear is removed proves the basic accuracy of this legend.

the difficulty hear lies with pinpointing when all this occurred. unlike the blizzard, there are no contextual clues to suggest where this conflict at the great tree may lie in the general timeline, so any conclusions we draw must be based on speculation. the only thing we know for sure is that zhan tiri’s residence in the great tree ended during demanitus’s lifetime, which puts a hard stop in it at about two thousand years ago.

my theory is that zhan tiri corrupted and resided in the great tree long before demanitus’s time. adira calls it her stronghold, and as discussed in the first section, the great tree has the greatest variety and frequency of zhan tiri iconography of any location in the series. one of the symbols inside the great tree is even found thousands of miles away at janus point—the corkscrew-snouted ram’s head—which draws a possible line of influence from the tree to janus point. taken together, all of this suggests a long period of time during which the great tree was zhan tiri’s tree.

and as for when it entered into the conflict between demanitus and zhan tiri, i believe there are two possibilities:

demanitus knew of zhan tiri’s use of the great tree as a fortress, and she allowed him inside while they were collaborating in their search for the drops. she likely hid the violent nature of its defenses from him for a while; then she either let her guard down and allowed him to glimpse more of the truth, or the tree as attacked and he inadvertently witnessed a brutal massacre. either way, this is what clued him in to her ulterior motives, and he crafted the spear to destroy the tree’s magic—and it is this betrayal that zhan tiri references in the plus est flashback when she says “you turned your back on me.”

zhan tiri had been using the great tree as a home for many years without the aggressive kill-anyone-who-enters security measures, allowing it to function as a library or house of research. this may have been how she and demanitus encountered each other in the first place, and would go a long way to explaining why demanitus trusted her initially. it wasn’t until demanitus turned against her and imprisoned her in the lost realm, and her subsequent release by his pupils, that she became enraged and turned the great tree into an indiscriminate killing machine and demanitus forged his magical spear to stop her.

i think both options are equally plausible, and since there isn’t any direct evidence one way or another, this is another case for personal interpretation and preference to really come into play.

so, to sum up...

at some point around two thousand years ago, lord demanitus encountered zhan tiri, and she persuaded him to trust her and work with her to find the mythical sundrop and moonstone. she was most likely just using him the whole time, while he grew to care for her but became so uncomfortable with her violent methods and selfish motivations that he felt he had no choice to imprison her in the lost realm.

his pupils—whom he either once shared with zhan tiri, or gathered after the breakdown of his relationship with zhan tiri—turned against him, and either took her side in the conflict, or successfully freed her from the lost realm. i think the latter explanation(s) fit better with the information we are given.

the blizzard discussed in queen for a day most likely happened after the plus est flashback and her subsequent release by the disciples.

the conflict at the great tree most likely occurred either right before or at some point after the plus est flashback and her subsequent release, but it is plausible to assume that by this point she had been residing in the great tree for a considerable amount of time prior to working with demanitus.

demanitus defeated zhan tiri and her disciples, imprisoned her in the lost realm, imprisoned most if not all of her disciples in the demanitus chamber, destroyed the portal to the lost realm so she couldn’t easily be brought back, and transferred his soul into the immortal body of a monkey so he could spend the next two thousand years as a... watchman of sorts, over the drops, probably with the hope that he could step in to prevent zhan tiri’s release if necessary.

#rta #tts #zhan tiri #demanitus #w h e w

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cto10121 · 3 years ago

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Why Does the Nurse Prefer Paris to Romeo?

After she returns from meeting Romeo, and Juliet desperately asks her what he said about their marriage, the Nurse goes into this humorous but very telling speech:

Nurse. Well, you have made a simple choice. You know not how to choose a man. Romeo? No, not he. Though his face be better than any man’s, yet his leg excels all men’s, and for a hand and a foot, and a body, though they be not to be talked on, yet they are past compare. He is not the flower of courtesy, but I’ll warrant him as gentle as a lamb. Go thy ways, wench. Serve God.

I find this fascinating.

Notice how the Nurse doesn’t really say why Romeo is the dumb choice, or what her problem with him is, but goes into another one of her comic desultory ramblings, this time on Romeo’s hotness that seems to undermine her assertion. The only true criticism or justification she offers is merely that “He is not the flower of courtesy,” and even that is mitigated by a compliment to Romeo’s character (“as gentle as a lamb”). While this is obvious foreshadowing for the Nurse’s betrayal of Juliet and her “Romeo is a dishclout to [Paris]” line, she never offers a good explanation as to why she thinks Romeo isn’t good enough for Juliet, and that she could do better. By contrast, she praises Paris and tells Juliet no less than three times in that same speech that he is better than Romeo.

It’s particularly noteworthy since in the Act 2, Scene 4 scene when they meet, it’s clear that the Nurse likes Romeo. She laughs at and appreciates his roasting Mercutio (“Marry, well said!”). Despite the fact that he is clearly friends with Mercutio et al. who mock her shamelessly, she is unfailingly polite (“Pray you, sir, a word”) and nice, as if she considers him different from the rest. Her warning to him not to toy with Juliet’s feelings is clearly a pre-made speech she would have given anyway. She feels comfortable enough to go on her ramblings—even telling him about Paris and how Juliet hates him and how she ~mysteriously blanches when she tells her Paris is better! So what’s with the sudden Team Paris stuff?

Well, I have my theories, and they may even shed some light not only as to the purpose of this little speech, but what it reveals about the Nurse’s character and her role, ultimately, as Juliet’s foil, in similar ways Mercutio acts as Romeo’s. So let’s speculate.

Theory 1: The Nurse Thinks Romeo Is Too Callow/Immature

While the Nurse clearly doesn’t hold the mockery of hi Romeo’s wily friends against him, she still caught Romeo in his male camaraderie and may have concluded that Romeo, while better than those “scurvy knaves,” is still a callow youth, wet behind the ears. That would explain the use of “simple” (meaning dumb) instead of just “wrong.” She is shocked that he was capable of killing Tybalt (although to her view she would have assumed it had been in cold blood). She isn’t all surprised to see him weeping disconsolately on the floor of the Friar’s cell (although that is because Juliet is doing the exact same thing, and she says so). She also—tellingly—tells him to stand up and “be a man,” so she obviously has bought into the cultural notion of masculinity that does not allow the free expression of excessive emotion from men. Paris is much more self-possessed and composed, even while he’s mourning Juliet, and older besides; that may be enough to prefer him for Juliet, especially if the Nurse thinks a mature man can help Juliet adjust through the trials of marriage and motherhood better.

Against this, however, is the Nurse’s description of Romeo as a dishclout (dishrag) to Paris’ “eagle.” If Romeo’s supposed immaturity was her main objection to him, then she would have said a baby eagle or some equivalent animal or object associated with youth—small, weak, and mewling. Also, Juliet may be smart, but she is still 13. The Nurse no doubt lowkey sees her as still a little girl herself, one she personally raised, so thinking Romeo is too immature for her makes little sense. They both behave in similar ways. Romeo also consistently reads older by at least 3-4 years and his behavior in his play does not mark him as any less mature than his friends or Tybalt—or, frankly, most of the adults in this play.

Theory 2: The Nurse Prefers Paris Because He Is of a Higher Social Rank/Wealthier Than Romeo

Paris is kinsman to the Prince, and Romeo is the heir of Montague; it’s a no-brainer which one has the higher rank. Paris also reads as an older man, though he too dies with the rest of the youths of the play (there is some ambiguity definitely re: his age). The Nurse seems to have some materialistic leanings, as when she rather gleefully tells Romeo at the Capulet ball: “I tell you, he that can lay a hold of her / Shall have the chinks” and social climbing tendencies as when she gives herself airs in front of Mercutio et al. and tells Peter to hand over her fan. She makes only a token resistance to Romeo’s coin offer and accepts it immediately at his mild insistence. There are definite classist vibes in her “Romeo’s a dishclout compared to [Paris]” line. A rag is a low, plain/ugly, used, faded, common item; an eagle is a noble animal that soars the skies. It may emphasize the Nurse’s belief that Romeo is dime-a-dozen in terms of youths go, and that Paris is “rare.”

Against this, however, is the fact that the Nurse doesn’t bring up materialistic or mercenary considerations in her marry-Paris speech even though it would have been apropos. Also, the social difference between Romeo and Paris is probably not even significant; Romeo was able to be friends with Mercutio, also PE’s kinsman, with no trouble, after all. Romeo is the heir of Montague, a family of the same social class with Juliet’s; while the family’s fortunes would not drastically improve, there would be no social shame in a match, and in fact the Friar counts on it in his plans. Paris would be a much nicer match, of course, but not one to overthrow all consideration of Juliet’s feelings. If the Nurse did have class considerations, they must have been unconscious ones. This is an English play, after all, by an English writer writing a lower class character; class is never far behind.

Theory 3: The Nurse Thinks Paris Is Hotter Than Romeo (and Hotter=Better)

The first half at least is definitely canon. The Nurse consistently raises up the question of Romeo’s hotness vis-à-vis Paris. On one side, Paris is consistently her favorite, the one that “excels” Romeo, the one she has stated more than once that she prefers. “An eagle” doesn’t have “so fair an eye” as Paris, and Romeo’s the “dishclout.” Paris is the flower of Verona, Paris is a man of wax, etc. The very first thing she says after telling Juliet that she thinks it’s best to marry Paris is that he is a “lovely gentleman” (although that could also easily refer to his personality).

On the other hand, the Nurse explicitly says that Romeo’s face “be better than any man’s.” (Even better than Paris’? ~Surely not). It is the Nurse, not Juliet, who lewdly blazons Romeo’s body parts; Juliet, even at her most horny in “Gallop apace,” never talks about Romeo in this way. It’s as if the Nurse views the Romeo-Juliet-Paris drama as a YA novel and she is the fangirl resolutely on #TeamParis, writing steadily long meta rants on Tumblr about how Paris is the sophisticated/more mature/nicer option and Romeo is the mediocre/basic/nice guy—all the while writing R/J fanfic because hey, Romeo is super hot too.

Considering the Nurse’s obsession with these men’s looks and physical beauty, she would prefer the one who is most handsome for Juliet or who she thinks is the most handsome. How she eventually did settle firmly on the Team Paris camp is uncertain, since a furious Juliet rages on how she hypocritically trashed Romeo even when she had “praised him with above compare / So many thousand times?” Juliet may have been exaggerating the number in her hurt and betrayal, but we literally do see the Nurse liking Romeo physically—explicitly so in ways she doesn’t do with Paris—and personally. Perhaps her likening Romeo to a dishclout compared to Paris was an exaggerated, blunt way to persuade Juliet to drop him. Conversely, she could have just been humoring Juliet when she praised Romeo “with above compare,” just as she might have been hastily placating Juliet when, in her marry-Paris speech, she says, “O he [Paris] is a lovely gentleman!”

In any case, the Nurse’s valuing physical beauty shows her shallowness, which is part-and-parcel to her role as Juliet’s foil. Notice how Juliet doesn’t go into detail as to Romeo’s appearance and neither does Romeo for Juliet. This is partially logistical, as Shakespeare, being trained for the theater, learned to avoid specifying character appearance. But the absence also indicates that R&J’s love are not based on trivial details such as hair or eye color, much less body type. They obviously find each other physically attractive, but it’s more what they mean to each other. The Nurse doesn’t understand that, and Juliet’s irritation and impatience when she goes on a tangent on Romeo’s excelling leg: “But all of this I have known before.” Yes, my Romeo is hot and the sky is blue, can we move on?

Which Theory?

Barring more information from the text, I feel Theory 3 is the most supported and the most likely, although 1 and 2 have their strong points. A little bit of all three wouldn’t be out of the question. The main problem is that the Nurse doesn’t bring up potential valid objections, like Romeo’s killing Tybalt (!!), which Presgurvic’s RetJ did, only the logistical difficulty of Romeo being in Mantua and Juliet in Verona “and [her] no use of him” in the sense that Juliet can’t enjoy Romeo sexually. The emotional callousness the Nurse displays here is part-and-parcel with the Capulets’ overall emotional callousness and shallowness, especially towards Tybalt’s death (see Capulet’s “Well, we are all born to die”—compare that to Romeo’s genuinely regretful, “Forgive me, cousin” speech to Tybalt’s tomb).

In that sense the Nurse’s emotional shallowness is obviously meant to contrast with Juliet’s love and commitment to Romeo and even her lewd praise of him contrast with Juliet’s rapturous praise.

In sum: While the Nurse is much more supportive of R&J than the Friar, she prefers Paris and not only doesn’t hesitate to tell Juliet of it, it also informs her advising Juliet to marry Paris. This creates a bit of a mystery since she never goes into any explanation as to why she prefers Paris or even why Romeo would make a poor choice. Most likely she is just playing YA love triangle games and going back and forth as to which one is hotter/which one Juliet should date (the verdict? Team Paris).

(P.S. Another, slightly nerdy addition—on the Nurse’s “He is not the flower of courtesy, but I’ll warrant him as a gentle as a lamb.” Gentle in Shakespeare is almost always used in the sense of being well-regarded, honorable, virtuous, or simply having the qualities of a gentleman. The Nurse’s use of it to mean “soft or sweet” is the first time I’ve seen Shakespeare employ the word in the modern sense. To make absolutely sure, I checked David and Ben Crystal’s Shakespeare’s Words: A Glossary and Language Companion, and sure enough there was no definition close to “soft/kind/sweet” under the gentle entries (noun, verb, adjective). It could be that this was a small oversight and the dictionary has been updated since then, but the entries looked comprehensive enough. It certainly wouldn’t be the first time Shakespeare employed a word in what we would recognize as its modern sense. (Any Shakespearean nut remembers any other time Shakespeare uses gentle in the modern sense? Hit me up if you find anything.)

Anyway, my personal headcanon is that the modern sense of the word could have been extant, if not widely used, a sort of slang that a lower-class character like the Nurse, when she is not putting on airs, would employ. If so, perhaps Shakespeare could have intended a small malapropism (the Nurse commits many of them) his mainstream audience would find amusing. Because of course, if Romeo were gentle, lamblike or not, then he would de facto be courteous—a key part of gentility is courtesy! So it would seem, to Elizabethan audiences, that the Nurse, in employing some peasant slang, accidentally employs a ridiculous contradiction. Cue laughter—oh that Nurse!

As for “gentle as a lamb”…Romeo is indeed lovely and sweet to Juliet and even his Mercutio roasts are more fond than cutting, but while he is patient and considerate with the Nurse—he insists on giving her some coin for her trouble—he reads mostly bemused by her. Not so much “gentle” in the modern sense of the word. But the Nurse herself is not very observant nor very emotionally perceptive, so it lends a little more credence to Theory 1 in that she thinks of Romeo as just a kid, nothing more.)

#romeo and juliet #rj meta #r&j meta #cristina metas #i just can’t help thinking about juliet listening to her nurse thirsting after romeo #only for the nurse to say she should marry paris and that paris is better #the top ten anime betrayals for sure

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nearlymanaged · 5 years ago

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12. Silver Hoops and Black Cat

Sirius had been acting strange, Remus thought. It wasn’t his sudden desire to get his ears pierced - that bit was normal. That was exactly the kind of thing that he would do. It was something else, something Remus couldn’t fully verbalise. Overall, Sirius seemed fine, it’s just that there were little looks and sighs and words that told Remus there was something bothering his friend. He seemed vaguely irritated and distant, somehow, and Remus couldn’t figure out why.

He had spent one afternoon wondering if maybe Vincent had caught Sirius’ eye, since his odd mood swing seemed to have been released into action right after that meeting. But that theory didn’t hold much water, seeing as Sirius categorically refused to go back to the record shop. He insisted that once was enough, for whatever that meant.

“Remus!” Someone hollered and he turned around to see the French boy on the opposite side of the street. He told Sirius he would be right back and hurried over to Vincent.

Remus felt a mixture of excitement and unease in the pit of his stomach. In fact, he had hoped to run into the enigmatic stranger, he had pictured that meeting in his mind... But there was a tiny voice in his head that was onto him, that whispered about the unpleasant truth of it, the ugly little hope - maybe this could make Sirius jealous, make him understand that he was deeply and madly in love with Remus?

“You told me you were not ‘ere with your boyfriend?” Vincent spoke again once Remus reached him.

“Er… Pardon me?” His eyebrows dipped in polite confusion momentarily, his head tilting to the side.

“That boy, is ‘e not your boyfriend?”

Following Vincent’s gaze, Remus glanced back over his shoulder to see Sirius walking into the tattoo parlour. “No...” he uttered and, after a moment’s hesitation, added, “Why do you ask?”

“‘E looked at me like my mother looks at my father’s mistress,” Vincent shrugged, an expression of utmost nonchalance etched into his face, as if he hadn’t just said anything peculiar at all.

“How very French… No, no, that’s just how Sirius looks sometimes; he got into this edgy phase a couple of years ago and...I digress...” Remus trailed off and his mind wandered to what Lily had said a couple of weeks ago. How she too thought that there was something going on, that Sirius harboured a secret crush on him.

As much as it gave Remus an excited fluttering feeling in his stomach, he couldn’t keep mild annoyance at bay. Why did people not understand that him and Sirius had been friends for years? Of course, Vincent didn’t know that, but still… They were really close, all of the Marauders were. Naturally, Sirius was going to care and look out for him. But maybe even more than that, Remus found it annoying that it still gave him a rush of hope...

“You never came back to the record shop.”

“Yeah… I’m sorry, I’ve been preoccupied, I suppose. Has your imprisonment in the boring English countryside gotten any easier to bear?”

“Not really. Unfortunately, I ‘ave learnt that English girls are very...what is the word...assertive?”

“Assertive? How so?”

“They ask me out every day and every day I tell them that I do not like girls. They think they can convince me, maybe?”

“Well, please do accept my condolences. It must be really hard, being so attractive,” Remus teased him with an amused chuckle.

“Oui! I cannot bear it…” Vincent rolled his eyes and laughed.

“Can I ask you… How did you know that...that I like boys?” Remus smiled abashedly.

“I ‘ad a feeling, perhaps. I didn’t know but I ‘oped. I was right then?”

“Yeah… You were.”

“You look very nice today,” Vincent stated bluntly as if it were a fact, causing Remus to chuckle.

“A little scuffed up but not too shabby overall, I suppose?”

“Is that ‘ow you always take a compliment?”

“I don’t know, I don’t get complimented that often, I guess.”

“I do not believe it,” Vincent folded his arms over his chest.

“Shocking, I know.”

“Well next time you should just say ‘thank you’.”

“Thank you. I think you look very nice, too.”

“Would you like to ‘ave a cup of coffee with me?”

“Er, yes, sure,” Remus felt his ears get hot. For the past few days, he kept going between being sure that Vincent had flirted with him and then convincing himself that he had merely imagined that, or remembered it wrong. But there was no denying it now - Vincent was asking him out on a coffee date and it felt exhilarating.

“‘Ow about now?”

“Er…” Remus cast a glance back at the tattoo parlour; he really just wanted to be in there, with Sirius, he realised. As thrilling as it was to have Vincent stand in front of him and say all the things he was saying...he just wasn’t Sirius. There was no other way to put it.

“Not a good time?”

“Not really. I’m sorry.”

“You apologise a lot,” Vincent let out a melodious laugh.

“I can’t help feeling a bit inadequate in front of you…” Remus echoed it.

“Don’t. I am so glad to see you again,” Vincent’s face relaxed into a bright smile. “I ‘ave been thinking about ever since you left that day.”

“You have?”

“Yes. There is something special about you, I knew it the moment I saw you,” Vincent peered up into his eyes with a glint of eagerness or curiosity, Remus couldn’t tell. “Is that too, euh...direct?”

“No…” Remus beamed without realising; he almost laughed at the thought of that ‘something special’ being his lycanthropy. And then he smiled wider because Vincent didn’t know and would never know about it. To him, Remus was just a normal boy. Not only that - a boy that he thought was special and interesting enough for him to be standing there in that moment, offering up his thoughts and feelings for his consideration. And yet...

“Did I make you uncomfortable?” For the first time, there was an ounce of shyness in Vincent’s smile.

“No… I just...” What? He just what? He wasn’t sure what he was going to say but before he could figure it out, Vincent spoke instead.

“If you are not interested, you can just say it. I can’t lie, I would be disappointed, but I would rather know anyway.”

Remus knit his eyebrows together, inhaling a lungful of air as his mind settled into place. “It’s not that I’m not interested...in you. You are lovely, I’m sure. But I suppose I can’t truthfully lead you on to think that--” His breath caught. How could he explain to this charming Frenchman that even in his presence, all Remus could think about was how he wished that it was Sirius telling him these things? “There’s someone else. I’m not with anyone, but there’s someone that I can’t seem to get out of my head. And I don’t think it would be fair to you if I were to pretend that that’s not the case.”

“But… Why are you not with this person then?” Vincent’s expression was that of utter bewilderment.

“I don’t think,” Remus was choosing his words slowly, deliberately, “he is interested in being with me, I suppose.”

“Oh pour l'amour de baiser! The person who does not see how special you are does not deserve you, don’t you know?”

“I’m very flattered, Vincent. You have no idea how flattered, really,” Remus offered him a pleading smile, as if to make him understand what he was saying better.

“I will give you my address and my phone number. Maybe you will change your mind about this person who does not notice you.”

“Maybe…”

“I think you should. If this person you speak of was worth your time, they would show it. You should not ‘ave a doubt about someone who truly sees you.”

“I-- I can’t argue with that, I guess,” Remus let out a weary chuckle. “You’re very nice.”

“Please remember that you do not need to waste your time on someone who does not care. And send me a postcard. ‘Ere,” Vincent glanced behind Remus and pulled out a little notebook and a pen. He quickly jotted something down, ripped a page out, and started folding it in half twice.

“I did it!” Remus’ vision was suddenly obscured by a mass of black windswept waves that was Sirius’ hair. “What do you think?” He was leaning in so close to show off his new piercings that Remus needed a second to catch his breath before answering.

“I do.”

In fact, that was a gross understatement - Remus couldn’t comprehend why or how, but these new accessories made Sirius even more outrageously attractive than he normally was.

And then Sirius put his arm around him - which wasn’t anything out of the norm - and Remus felt like he really was the most special person in the world. He knew it was silly, he knew that Vincent was probably right - that he was wasting his time pining after someone he could never have… But in moments like this, it was hard to maintain a firm grip on reality and far easier to slip into a daydream.

* * *

The Marauders had come back to Hogwarts a couple of days before most of the other kids. Whenever possible, they would always make sure they could spend the full moon in the Shrieking Shack, since it felt like a much safer environment than any other place.

It wasn’t as bad this time around; none of the boys sustained any significant injuries and, more importantly, Remus told Sirius the following morning that he could remember almost the entire night - albeit through thick fog, but still remember it more than most full moon nights. However, Madam Pomfrey still wanted to keep him in the hospital wing for a couple of days.

Sirius had borrowed James’ invisibility cloak to sneak out of the Gryffindor tower and into the hospital dormitory the night after the full moon. He wanted to make sure that Remus was okay, that he wasn’t lying wide awake and bored or that he wasn’t hungry or in pain… Both James and Peter were eager to check in on their friend, but there was a sense of solidarity between them that meant they didn’t even have to say it out loud to know that Sirius had to be the one to go see Moony.

When Sirius got there, Remus was fast asleep. Again, it was a very good sign, but Sirius still lingered for about half an hour before making his way back.

He pulled the invisibility cloak off himself the moment the portrait door swung shut behind him. There was no one else in the common room - except for someone’s drowsy black cat. The feline lifted its head lazily to glance at Sirius and he smiled at it as though greeting a familiar face. He went over to one of the armchairs and slumped down in it; sleep just didn’t feel like a realistic possibility that night.

He sat in silence for a while, wondering if Remus had already written a letter to the French git and if so, then what had he said in it? The more he thought about it, the more bitterness bubbled in the pit of his stomach. He felt that the French guy didn’t deserve Moony; that he was too plain and too clueless and too...everything that he was. He wondered if Moony actually, truly liked him, if he had written a love letter to him… Without even realising, Sirius snorted, causing the cat to flinch.

“Sorry,” he said. “It’s just that...oh, you wouldn’t understand.”

The cat narrowed its eyes at him.

“You’re not McGonagall, are you? No, she’s not a black cat...” He sunk deeper into the armchair, as if physically weighed down by gloomy thoughts. “You see, Wormtail and Prongs think I should tell Remus that I fancy him, but I’m not sure if that’s such a good idea…” Sirius started speaking quietly, slowly, as if raking through the mess that was his mind. “I’ve been flirting with him day and night, and he hasn’t reacted to it at all. I’d say he’s a few sandwiches short of a picnic not to have noticed, but Moony’s pretty smart, actually… In fact, he’s possibly the most intelligent person I know. Of course, he would never admit to it…” Sirius sprang up to his feet all of a sudden and started pacing back and forth, the cat following him with its shining eyes. “He has all these ridiculous ideas in his head about how he’s not enough of this and too much of that…” Sirius flailed his arms and gave the cat an exasperated look; the feline hissed. “Exactly! There’s a fine line between being humble and dimming your own light. It’s a bit absurd, innit? And he’s the most attractive boy in this entire goddamn castle…” Sirius paused and then dramatically slumped down into the empty armchair, still looking at the cat. “He’s so gorgeous… He has such nice hands too, have you ever noticed?” At these words, the cat meowed at him. “Well, no,” Sirius frowned at it momentarily. “It’s not just his devilishly good looks that I’m attracted to, obviously. I mean, he is just so dreamy… But also incredibly kind - the kindest one out of the four of us, no doubt. He genuinely cares about people, a lot. Hey! Do you think maybe he was just trying to be nice to that French berk? No?.. Yeah, I don’t know…” He trailed off and now it looked like the cat was watching him intently.

“Remus he can seem a bit reserved,” Sirius opened his mouth again, “you know, but that’s just the facade. He’s actually fucking hilarious. And, while we’re at it, have you ever met anyone else who could be turning into a werewolf every month, always have time for his friends, and somehow still remain at the top of every class? Didn’t think so. I’m just so happy when I’m around him, you know? You ever feel that with your kitty pals? It’s the kind of happiness that I never really thought I could experience-- not to get too personal with you, but my parents? Horrible people. I remember, when I was little I thought, well if this is love, then fuck this rubbish. It just kind of gave me really low expectations, you know? So long as I’m not completely miserable, I wouldn’t be fussed about anything. But Remus makes me feel so...” He trailed off, staring into the fireplace for a moment while the cat started grooming itself. Then Sirius perked up again, scooting to the very edge of his seat, leaning towards the feline who froze with its leg up in the air and stared back at him. “Maybe I don’t deserve him? Maybe that’s what it is? He’s too good for me. I mean, I think I could make him happy if he let me, but maybe--”

“Who are you talking to?” A yawning voice asked from the top of the stairs to the dormitories and, startled by it, Sirius turned into a big black dog, causing the cat to do a double take.

“Bloody hell, you scared the shit out of me…” Sirius glared at James once he returned to his human form.

“Why aren’t you in bed? I woke up and you weren’t there...I wondered if you’d gotten caught.”

“Come on, Prongs, would I ever get caught?”

“You’re right…” James nodded with another yawn bursting out of him. “How is he?”

“Asleep.”

“Good. I’m going back to bed then…”

“You do that, Prongs.”

“Night, Pads…”

“Night.” Sirius watched James disappear behind their dormitory door and then looked back at the cat again. “Sorry about that, he’s always been pretty tactless, that boy has… Where was I?”

While Sirius was trying to retrieve his train of thought, the cat got up and leapt over from the sofa into his lap. He started petting it absent-mindedly. “But if he likes Vincent then can I really do anything about it?” The room was enveloped in complete silence for a moment before the cat started purring. “I don’t know what you mean but I feel like you’re right…”

#wolfstar #wolfstar fanfiction #remus lupin #sirius black #james potter #marauders #hogwarts #fanfic

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