#i have theories about the rykard one and the ranni one

[blasphemousclaw]

you talked about radahn the other day, and while he's not my main elden ring focus i still find him very fascinating. one thing I'd like to mention is that radahn didn't really seem to have affiliations apart from his own thing in caelid. his faction used fire, which is against the erdtree and prior to the shattering warranted exile, and they use sorceries as opposed to GO incantations. as you said there are also abductor virgins, with the symbolism of snakes and them also considered erdtree traitors. if you go to redmane castle before the radahn festival you'll find both a misbegotten warrior and a crucible knight, beings hated by the regime, defending the castle. even jerren comments on them as if they were a part of his forces afterwards. godskin followers exist alongside his soldiers in his own divine tower, whereas everywhere else redmanes are shown in conflict with the environment. the tower even houses GEQ's sword.

(notably, godskins show up at 3 respective locations important to the carian siblings, but that's another discussion)

in previous versions of the game lore, radahn was known as the giant slayer - that is no longer likely to be cannon given the change of the timeline since, but it is something to consider when you see how much he idolizes godfrey currently. personally i think he may have held beliefs in the primordial crucible, which would explain his adoration for godfrey, as the crucible knights followed the old elden lord, and the variety of creatures employed in his army.

in addition, there's no proof of this, but i like to think tanith's crucible knight was sent by radahn, perhaps after rykard got devoured, for her protection, as rykard himself doesn't really have crucible ties.

I can’t believe it never occurred to me to connect these dots, I think you’re absolutely spot on that Radahn has ties to the crucible! Since the crucible knights directly served Godfrey, it makes perfect sense that Radahn would want to make use of them too. You’ve summed up everything really well, but I have one more potential connection to add:

There are only three colosseums in the game, and one of them is in Caelid. The description for the ritual sword talisman implies that the colosseums are “arenas where ritual combat took place” which occurred during the age of Godfrey, but “died out by the age of King Consort Radagon.”

The crucible knights actually have a connection to ritual combat as well—Ordovis’s sword is nearly identical to the ritual sword talisman…

…so I think it’s meant to be the same sword, which was used in ritual combat. This links Godfrey’s knights with the colosseums.

I wonder if Radahn sought out the colosseum when he relocated to Caelid? There isn’t one in Radahn’s native Liurnia, since Godfrey never conquered Liurnia. It certainly seems like Radahn would be into the idea of ritual combat, especially if it’s an old practice related to Godfrey… just a thought!

Anyway, all of these details that you mentioned emphasize that Radahn isn’t necessarily loyal to the current erdtree regime (as a lot of people seem to assume), and that emulating Godfrey matters much more to him than religious affiliation.

also I LOVE the theory that Radahn sent the crucible knight for Tanith!!!

[toweringclam]

If the leaks turn out to be true (which I'm skeptical on), it would pretty much upend most lore theories about certain characters. However, it actually fits in pretty well with my own theories.

Spoilers below the break.

So Radahn was meant to be Miquella's consort. Probably.

This... actually works.

First off, my theory has always been that the Empyreans all had designated consorts. It's the best way to explain the connection between Malenia and Rykard, as shown by the Shaded Castle. Probably not a very good relationship, given all the abductor virgins he gave her are broken and stuck in a cave guarded by her soldiers, but a relationship nonetheless.

I had previously assumed that Miquella and Godwyn were betrothed, as they are the two favored children, but I realize that doesn't make much sense in hindsight. Ranni came about long before Miquella, so it only makes sense that the favored son of the Sun and the favored daughter of the Moon would be wed.

Ranni clearly took exception to this.

And that leaves Radahn x Miquella. Now, some people think that there was a conflict between Miquella and Radahn, but that's not the case. It's kind of a thing that Miquella got along with everybody. Why would Radahn be the one exception?

Instead, it's likely that Malenia found he was missing and her twin sense pinged in Caelid. She made some very reasonable conclusions about what had happened and demanded answers from Radahn. Radahn didn't know wtf she was talking about, but instead of sorting this out like a reasonable person, he felt insulted by the question and demanded an apology. One thing led to another, neither one could back down without losing face, and soon you have the last and most devastating battle of the Shattering.

It makes sense.

It's probably wrong because the leaks are pretty dubious.

But it makes sense.

[dragon-communion]

The Godskins and their placement in the world:

Liurnia: The Divine Tower. This one is specifically guarding the path to Ranni's corpse. I've seen some people suggest they were there looking for Ranni's skin, but based on the setup of the other Divine Towers I'm pretty sure anything on the bridge is supposed to be a guard.

Volcano Manor: The Temple of Eiglay. This one is defending the skin of Eiglay and the access point to the more official sections of the manor, separate from the prison town. My first impression was that this noble might be the steward or even clergyman of the church, given the way he appears in front of the altar and then starts coming down the aisle. It's possible he's at Volcano Manor as a professional torturer, but the Godskins are more than sadists. If they're even sadistic at all. They are in the business of killing gods, and Rykard is also in the business of killing gods. This is more than mere employment, I think it's an ideological alliance. This would also mean that two out of three of the Carian siblings are allied to the Godskins.

Altus: Dominula Windmill Village. This Godskin is here overseeing the festivities of Dominula, which are a pagan tradition not necessarily supported by the crown but clearly not discouraged either. I've seen suggestions that the apostle is there for the skins themselves, for clothing repairs or something, or maybe since the Godskins just like skinning people, but again I'd argue that's too shallow of a read. The festival at Dominula does not begin and end at skinning, it's driven by some kind of local belief, perhaps even religious belief, and whatever belief that is does not necessarily conflict with the Golden Order or else the royal family wouldn't have suffered it on their doorstep. Whatever ritual and purpose is central to Dominula, I think the Godskins have been a part of it for centuries in a religious function, rather than as butchers. Omenkillers are butchers. The Godskins are apostles and nobles.

Farum Azula. I have a crazy theory, but I don't think we're actually fighting a duo boss here. I think the implication is that there are a lot of Godskins here. They're not resurrecting partners, they're being summoned. My initial impression of them was that they're at Farum Azula to harvest dragon scales, smithing stones, and I think the evidence for this is that on defeat the boss actually drops a smithing stone bell bearing. When you fully upgrade a weapon for the first time, you get an achievement called God-Slaying Armament. That's the highest calling of the Godskins, their stated reason for existing in the first place. Of course they want smithing stones. And the creation of a God-Slaying Armament involves the scales of Placidusax himself, based on the description of the Ancient Dragon Smithing Stone. I am not actually sure if the Godskins know Maliketh is there. I am not actually sure if Maliketh himself knows he's there. Maliketh's presence in Farum Azula confuses me in general, but the scales are a good motivation, and if they ARE aware of him then killing Maliketh for their queen/to release Death would also be a good reason.

Caelid: The Divine Tower. There are essentially three different enemies to defeat to get to the loot at the bottom of the tower: Radahn's Redmane soldiers, a couple of Blackflame Monks, and finally the Godskin Apostle boss fight. You do not need to fight the monks, the apostle, or several of the soldiers if you're just gunning for the rune at the top of the tower. Therefore, the soldiers you encounter inside the tower must be there to prevent you from reaching the bottom. It could be some form of containment on Radahn's part, but I think the simple answer is that the soldiers, monks, and Apostle are all allied. Which marks three out of three Carian siblings allied to the children of the GEQ.

To wrap this up, let's talk about the Godslayer's Greatsword, the Godslayer's Seal, and the Godskin's Prayerbook.

Why is the sword of the GEQ in Caelid? I'm not entirely sure, and the only supplementary information I have on the topic is Vargram the Raging Wolf. One of the first Tarnished called back by grace, and thus one of the first Tarnished called by Marika, we know he wanted to be an Empyrean's Shadow and he wielded the sword of the GEQ, who was an Empyrean. Logic follows that he wanted to be the GEQ's shadow, specifically. This does not clarify whether or not she was running around and able to be followed in any capacity- did he meet her? Did Vargram just have knightly devotion to a dead woman? It's hard to say.

I'm actually interested in the fact that Vargram wields the sword because it could mean the sword has been moved in the long interim between the Godskin Apostasy and the Shattering Wars. Maybe the GEQ had nothing to do with Caelid whatsoever, and Radahn just allowed the followers of the black flame to have sanctuary in Caelid. The interment of her personal sword would functionally make the basement of the Divine Tower of Caelid a kind of temple or surrogate tomb, which is a very strange honor for Radahn of all people to allow an enemy of the Golden Order. Maybe he hoped she'd return one day, like King Arthur for Excalibur, ready to fight.

The seal and prayerbook are in Godrick's basement, and I think the simplest answer is probably correct. Godrick is characterized as a coward who borrows power from everywhere he possibly can, be it using enchanted items like the Mimic Veil or outright stealing limbs from other people. Even his glory is borrowed- he hasn't really done anything heroic in his own right, but he throws around the name of the Golden Lineage. Therefore, despite the fact that the Godskins probably hunt demigods, any power is good power and something that can kill a demigod is EXACTLY the sort of thing he'd want to own. I wouldn't be surprised if he acquired the seal and book directly after Malenia marched through his backyard. Where did he get them? Hard to say at this point, so it's easier to analyze the other items.

It's very, very interesting to me that all three of the Carian siblings at least have a mutually beneficial relationship with the Godskins. Does this mean the GEQ was a Carian? Not necessarily. Does this mean they all knew her? Not necessarily either. The Godskins have been headless for awhile, and the Apostasy would have likely happened in the early years of Marika's empire when she was stamping out all opposition to her reign. It was the excision of Death from the Elden Ring that founded the Golden Order, after all, which at minimum would place the Apostasy before Radagon's ascension to Elden Lord.

That said, I have one final thought to leave you with. While not every mention of apostasy has to refer to the same instance of apostasy, it's a very striking and sparingly used word in the world of Elden Ring. We hear about blasphemy, acting in a way that offends the gods. We hear about heresy, beliefs that conflict with religious doctrine. But apostasy, the formal abandonment of a religion, is really only mentioned by name in one other instance:

The Apostate Derelict in the Consecrated Snowfield, where you can find one of the highest concentrations of Trina's Lilies in game.

[gaysnorlax]

the more i think about it, the more the dlc actually made me care MORE about miquella and malenia.

i had no feelings towards miquella except "ur sus as fuck" in the basegame, i thought malenia was cool as a boss but i didnt really care for her as a character. but the recontextualising of the dlc made me think they r pretty interesting. (big spoilers and thoughts under the cut)

if there is an item/dialogue that disproves me then i guess i am wrong, but from my interpretation miquella started with hopeful, uncomplicated motivations. but theres only so long you can keep that up in your not-erdtree before you realise your reach is only so much, and the good you do to these individuals is essentially Not Enough when you cant help everyone and your family is out there running a kingdom built on hatred. it makes sense for me to go from that to "i hate gods, i hate what they have done, but if this is the system in play then i will game the system". it even makes sense to me to abandon a sister who (imo) he loved dearly, because she is one person, and your new system will help Everyone. it makes sense in this mindset to manipulate and use her to go get your new consort, because once you have your new "perfect" world, there will be no need for manipulation- but youre not there yet, youre still living in the hateful world of your mother. it makes sense to abandon your soul-dead brother, because he is one person and in your new world, you can help everyone.

imo the consort stuff doesnt completely track with my theory, in that my theory is that radhan was chosen to give carian legitimacy and minimise outside threat to a world that you hope will no longer have to go to war. (ranni was "dead", and rykard is a Snake so. radahn is all there is lmfao, and even then its suspect whether radahn actually agreed), but the game seems to add a lot of personal feelings there which im not sure were always there. maybe miquella realised he had spurned everyone else who cared for him in his pursuit of a better world and held onto the only person he still had. idk. theres probably lore but i didnt catch every item or dialogue.

i do not think miquella is evil manipulative 100% no feelings scheming evil griffith, i think he had a dangerous set of tools (ability to completely charm people) and a dire situation that was not getting any better while he kept to the moral high road. i also have some thoughts that the st trina split happened as he started contemplating doing Bad Stuff, where she wanted to keep to their original morals.

anyway thats mY OPINION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i might be totally wrong, but this is just how the story and characters read to me

still dont care much about radahn tho lol x

[catcas22]

I'm curious, you said that your views on Marika as a character had changed since you started writing Prince of Death. How do you view her now?

Hi, thanks for the ask!

This is going to be a bit unfocused, just warning you up front. I suppose it would be best to start with my initial impression of Marika.

On my first file I was going for the Ranni ending, so I spent a lot of time in Liurnia and got most of my lore from Ranni and Turtle Pope. My initial sympathies were very much with Ranni and Rennala -- so my initial takeaway was that Marika was a tyrant and Radagon was a zealot who chose his religion over his family.

As I gathered more information, I softened on Radagon a bit. He seemed to be an okay father, when he was around. His Liurnian family was clearly devastated to lose him, and Radahn and Rykard still held at least a modicum of respect for him. He was also apparently quite close with Miquella, so he can't have been all bad. As my perception of Radagon shifted from "heartless" to "spineless," Marika slotted neatly into a sort of "Lady Macbeth" role. At this point I assumed that the aims of the Greater Will were synonymous with Marika's aims, so I had the vague idea that Marika had called Radagon home because he was more easily controlled and less of a potential threat than Godfrey.

As I progressed into Altus, I learned about Morgott's childhood and heard Marika's "amounting only to sacrifices" quote from Melina. This solidified my view of Marika as a ruthless queen who saw her children as expendable pawns. While her shattering of the Elden Ring implies that she did feel a degree of attachment to Godwyn, abusive parents do typically have a favorite/golden child. At some point I also absorbed the theory that in calling the Tarnished, her aim was for Godfrey to kill the other shardbearers (or kill their killer) and then free her.

By the time I learned that Marika had been actively working to subvert the Greater Will, I "knew" based on the sacrifices quote that she must be doing it for selfish reasons -- someone who views her own children as expendable surely would never take such a risk for altruistic reasons. That's more or less where I was when I developed the premise for Prince of Death -- i.e., Marika seeking to free herself from the control of the Greater Will, and willing to throw anyone under the bus to ensure her own freedom.

Some time later I was talking lore with @maranull, and she pointed out that the sacrifices quote could be interpreted as a warning, not a threat. In other words, Marika isn't necessarily saying "Remain useful to me or I'll cut you off." She could also saying "Don't mess around with Outer Gods like I did, they'll throw you away as soon as you stop being useful."

This ambiguity opens up a myriad of new interpretations of my Marika data-points.

Was she working against the Greater Will out of pure self-preservation? Genuine remorse? Fear of her children getting chewed up by the cycle she had perpetuated?

Was she the one pulling Radagon's puppet strings? Seems less likely the more I learn. Was Radagon the heartless extremist I originally saw him as? Was he a weak-willed follower, but under the thumb of the Greater Will rather than Marika? Was he a handler meant by the GW to curb the increasingly rebellious Marika, or were they both forced into it?

Did Marika banish her omen sons willingly when the Crucible fell out of favor? Did the Greater Will order the purging of omen, and the best Marika could do was negotiate banishment instead of death for her sons? Did Marika purge the followers of the Crucible for strategic reasons, but couldn't quite bring herself to kill Mohg and Morgott?

Did she banish Godfrey because he was a threat, or because she wanted to preserve a potential weapon far beyond the reach of the GW? Was she already plotting to overthrow her own Order that early in the timeline? Did she know that potentially using Godfrey to slay the Elden Beast would necessitate the deaths of the other shardbearers, her children? Was that her plan all along, or a desperate last resort?

I'm still not sure where I land. She's certainly more complex than I originally gave her credit for. I think there's still a valid reading where Marika is working against the GW for her own sake, seeking to free herself before the cycle turns once more and she goes the way of the Fire Giants and the Ancient Dragons. I think there's still a valid reading where she played favorites with her children, discarding some and loving others only conditionally.

But there's also a valid reading where Marika cares deeply for her children despite her flaws, where she's trying with every means available to her to atone for her misdeeds. There's a valid reading where Marika wants to free the Lands from the GW for the sake of her children, even if that means sacrificing herself.

Honestly, I think both are compelling, and I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Marika was not a perfect mother, and she surely made some ruthless decisions where her family was concerned. But you have to stretch pretty hard to say that she didn't love her children, as flawed as that love might have been. Whether you choose to see her as an antihero or a tragic villain, it's the nuance and ambiguity that makes her character so compelling.

[void-king-of-swingttv]

A Note on Elden Ring’s Flower Placement, and implications therein.

So Miquella, right?

Generally, we can assume that, wherever there are Miquella’s or St. Trina’s Lilies, they’re, 95% of the time, in places that are associated with the character or their stories.

There’s Miquella’s Lilies in the Village of the Albinaurics, Church of The Plague, the Haligtree, and a handful of places on the Altus Plateau.

But there’s one place where you an find some that doesn’t fit very well.

The Three Sisters area, just past Caria Manor. Specifically, on the path leading to Renna’s Rise.

Why would one of Miquella’s items, something that means he is likely associated with the area be doing there?

Looking elsewhere, there’s another flower, as well as a number of other items and statements the like Miquella to Castle Sol, where it’s heavily implied there was a ritual there that failed to bring a soulless demigod back to life, which is clearly Godwyn the Golden, the demigod slain in The Night of Black Knives.

No specifically, Miquella’s Lilies are found near RENNA’S Rise, which is where Ranni travels through on her quest to slay her Two Fingers, and banish the Greater Will. This is, oddly, VERY similar to what Miquella was trying to do with his Haligtree.

The Haligtree was meant to compete with the Erdtree, to be a place for those who were cast out by the Golden Order. Not quite as hands on as Ranni’s plan, but the spirit is the same. 

A New Order, free from the old.

Cut dialogue from Miquella himself states that he wants “All things to flourish, whether peaceful or malign.” The oppression and destruction by the Golden Order is antithetical to what Miquella wants.

Miquella’s got ties to Ranni, and her quest to banish the Greater Will, Godwyn, and the attempts to revive him, and there is a bit of a snag that I think I figured out, and that’s if he knew about Ranni’s plan to have Godwyn killed.

I think he did. I think he HELPED.

And he wasn’t the only one that did, and I’m not talking about Rykard and the Blasphemous Claw.

Now, Elden Ring is where Fromsoft has been trying to tie the lore in with mechanics and all that jazz together the tightest, and one thing that always threw me off if the NoBK. Godwyn, who dman near single-handedly ended the war with the Ancient Dragons, fought Fortisax and beat him so soundly the dragon became friends with him, so closely he dove into his death-dreams to try and salvage his soul from death (there’s no hetero way to explain that, Godwyn was plowing that dragon ass), and he was jumped, in his own home, by like 6 people with knives and they had to kill him at EXACTLY the same time as Ranni killed herself with the stolen Rune of Death all the way over in Liurnia.

Godwyn was the mightiest of the demigods. He was also the firstborn to Marika and Godfrey. He saw what the Greater Will ordered through his mother. He saw his twin brothers thrown into the sewers because they didn’t fit the mold the GW wanted, he saw the battle against Liurnia because the Golden Order demanded expansion, he saw his mother banish his father because she didn’t need him anymore after they’d won the last war before The Shattering.

For a man like Godwyn, who all the lore states was a kind man, who loved all and was loved in kind, who ended a war with mercy rather than bloodshed, to see all of that must have done more than broken his heart.

It must have shattered it.

So, after so many words, here is the big theory I’ve been building to:

That Ranni was not the only one behind the Night of Black Knives. That Godwyn worked with er to allow his soul to be broken by the ritual that night so Ranni could be free of The Fingers grasp on her destiny. That Miquella was the one tasked with bringing his soul back through the Eclipse afterwards.

And there’s more, stating the Black Knives would only follow the orders of Queen Marika, who, in exchange for immortality and eternal godhood, gave up all her control, gave up her autonomy, her twin sons so innocent and young, her husband, who fought his wars in her name and grafted the King of Beasts to himself so his bloodlust could be tempered. She who gave up everything for power that was not hers. She who Shattered the Elden Ring out of grief and anger at all she lost and all she gave up.

And so, one night, many, many years ago, a god, and three of her children met, and planned, and schemed.

[miriel-pastorofvows]

Gods, Family and Lineage

The first demigods were The Elden Lord Godfrey and his offspring, the golden lineage.

The Gods and Demigods of the Lands Between hold complex relationships, frequently changing loyalties. To better understand these relationships, we can start by looking at the family tree. As a definitive chronology is hard to be certain of, I have instead chosen to format these images in the way which I believe best illustrates the connections.

(Beware - some spoilers and speculation ahead)

Rennala and Radagon

Married here at the Church of Vows at the end of the Second Liurnian War, Rennala and Radagon appear to have brought about three demigods - Radahn, the Starscourge; Ranni, the Witch; and Rykard, the Blasphemous. While Radahn and Ranni have no known offspring, Radahn appears to have sired at least one child after offering himself to the vile Serpent God. 

There is some speculation about who the mother could be; some think his consort, Tanith, as she is referred to as Rya’s mother. However, this could be purely an adoptive status. Another theory points towards a woman known as Daedicar. This woman is mentioned only in passing, but it is stated that she gave birth to “a myriad of grotesque children“. It is important to note that this is only a rumour, and we have no solid proof here.

Marika and Godfrey

Some time before our own Queen was married to Radagon, the “Eternal” Queen Marika waged war against the Giants of the North, and afterwards granted Godfrey the title of Elden Lord, the first of this rank. Together, they had 3 children - the cursed Omen Twins, Morgott and Mohg; and Godwyn the Golden. These children of Godfrey were the first of the Golden Lineage, which continues to this day. The youngest of this lineage is Godrick, the Grafted, but other ancestors include Godefroy, who seems to have been the first to discover the power of Grafting. It is currently unclear who, if anyone, Godwyn had his children with...

Marika and Radagon

This leads us into perhaps the most contentious branch of this family tree; the dual-identity of Marika/Radagon, and the children they had together. Whether the two were once separate beings, or their children were born of  parthenogenesis, it is unclear. However, this is far from where the strangeness ends...

Firstly, the cursed Empyrean twins. Miquella the Unalloyed and Malenia, Goddess of Rot are the most well-known children of the pair. Both were afflicted with curses from birth; Miquella lived eternally as a child, and Malenia was afflicted by the Scarlet Rot. Seeking to end their curses, Miquella worked alongside his father to develop and grow the Golden Order. Once he saw that it held no cure for their afflictions, he instead turned to more drastic measures. Both the Unalloyed Gold and the Haligtree appear to have been attempts to remove the curses from the pair, but these methods went against the orthodox of the Golden Order and the sanctity of the Erdtree.

Malenia does not appear to have given birth willingly or intentionally, but it appears that the blooms of her scarlet rot have given life to at least five children, who do not seem to have inherited (or grown into) the Demigod status: Millicent, Polyanna, Maureen, Amy and Mary. They, along with the Scarlet Rot, are a topic for another day...

Finally, Melina. I am not the first to propose this idea, but I understand that it may be something new for some people, so I will do my best to explain the reasoning here. Firstly, we have some simple statements from Melina herself in which she claims Marika to be her mother: “Me, I'm searching for my purpose given to me by my mother inside the Erdtree long ago, for the reason that I yet live, burned and bodyless.” This quote directly references the fact that Melina’s mother is inside the Erdtree, which we know to be occupied only by Marika/Radagon and the Elden Beast. We also know that Melina can recite the “spoken echoes” of Marika, and she also makes reference to her “mother’s designs” later in the game. I believe that this is enough evidence to cement Melina as the daughter of Marika.

Being the daughter of Marika does not prove her to be the daughter of Radagon however, and here we must begin to speculate. The first, and most visually appealing idea, refers to the three types of butterfly found across the Lands Between. These are the Aeonian, Nascent, and Smoldering variants. The first has a clear connection to Malenia; the name refers to a region blighted by Malenia and her rot, the butterfly appears rotten itself, and it is often found around areas afflicted with rot, but also within the Haligtree.  The second may not be immediately obvious, but the connection is solidified when we look to the item description: “This butterfly appears as if it's just emerged from its cocoon for its entire life“. This makes clear reference to Miquella, who put himself in a cocoon to try and advance his cursed life to adulthood.

This leaves only the Smoldering Butterfly. This cannot refer to either of the other gods, but it also does not appear to have any connection to Ranni, the other Empyrean child. The description also doesn’t give us much to go off, though it does mention that the butterfly serves as “kindling”. Various items in the game make reference to a “Kindling Maiden”, and we know that titles like this hold much importance in the world of Elden Ring - enough so that Fromsoft have corrected and altered the descriptions of various items to provide a more cohesive picture. This could, at the end of the day, just be a coincidence - but I think it is unlikely.

The identity of this “Kindling Maiden” is all but confirmed to be Melina, who (from her earlier quote) we know was burned and is now bodyless. This leaves us with three butterflies, each linked to a powerful being in the Lands Between. The fact that two of them are siblings, and all three of them have the same mother, points a finger at the three of them being more closely related that it may first seem.

The other key piece of evidence I will be using to make this case hinges on the identity of the Gloam-Eyed Queen. This woman rose to power, alongside her Godskin cult, during (or possibly just after) the Age of the Erdtree. The Incantation “Black Flame Ritual” declares that she was “an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers“, which strongly implies she was a child of either Marika or Radagon. We know of most of these children, and none of them appear to fit the description; the only daughters are Malenia, who was afflicted by rot, and Ranni, who we can find atop the Divine Tower of Liurnia, slain but not burned. This means that, barring the technicalities of the ambiguous gender of Miquella/St Trina (a topic for another time), there must be at least one daughter of either Marika or Radagon who we do not know about.

There may be some subtle hints throughout the game, but the additional scene granted at the end of the Frenzied Flame ending if Melina is still alive provides a clear view of her second eye; an eye coloured as a gloam sky. If you prefer textual evidence, it is said that it was the Gloam-Eyed Queen who fought Maliketh in an attempt to steal Destined Death, and once it is unleashed, Melina tells you that Destined Death is exactly what she will return to you.

I’m not really sure how to close this off - if you read this, or even just the trees themselves, then I hope you enjoyed. I’m open to new ideas, as we all should be, and so I welcome debate and discussion below. I understand that the idea of Melina being the daughter of Radagon and Marika is not universally accepted, but I believe we have been given a lot of evidence to support it so far.

Next, I plan to discuss the demigods in more detail, including their families and their roles in the wider plot of Elden Ring. 

[thirtiethelement]

asking you about your in-depth trans ranni theory

Oh, THANK you, I'm always happy to infodump about that blue nerd.

Okay, so, before getting into the core of why I think trans Ranni is textually supported, let's go over some of the in-universe history with her:

In the setting, there's a force called Destined Death. It is the natural law of mortality, dictating that everything must eventually come to an end. However, when Queen Marika and her Golden Order came into power, she managed to somehow pluck that law out of the Elden Ring (a massive rune outlining how the world functions at a basic level), hiding it away and effectively banishing death. This allowed for people to live indefinitely by being reborn from the Erdtree when they otherwise would have died.

Marika, along with three of the demigod children of her Golden Lineage (Miquella, Malenia, and Ranni) was an Empyrean - an individual with the potential to channel the power of an Outer God, like Marika and the Greater Will. When Ranni was young, her mother, Rennala, took her to a cloistered spot in Liurnia where she had some sort of communion with another Outer God: the Dark Moon. And she was vibing with it! Whatever ideology it expressed to her, and whatever power it provided, she ended up wanting to work with it. Only one issue: The Outer Will had a vested interest in not being displaced from its position of power.

The Outer Will made its power known not only through deifying Marika and maintaining the Golden Order, but also by sending a number of creatures in service to act as its enforcers: The Two Fingers. Despite how ridiculous they look, they're apparently incredibly dangerous and just about immortal, which makes the fact that each Empyrean is shackled to one to force them to toe the line all the more difficult. Somehow, the presence of one of these linked Two Fingers influences the destiny of an Empyrean, preventing them from supplanting the Golden Order. But Ranni, being clever, figured out a loophole.

Ranni, through some means, found out that the Two Fingers' power over her actions was somehow bound to her body. To sever that link, she chose to do the unthinkable: Working with a group of co-conspirators that included at least her brother Rykard, Ranni arranged for the thievery of Destined Death, and committed ritual suicide in a fashion that managed to kill her body without killing her soul - which, incidentally, did kick off the entire horrific state the world of Elden Ring is currently in, but she was being a girlboss, so it's okay.

The evidence I can point to for her being transgender starts here. To still interact with the world after killing her own body, Ranni chose to let her soul inhabit a finely-made doll instead. It seems as though this may be why she kept Preceptor Seluvis around despite how utterly untrustworthy he is; for better or worse, he's a brilliant magician when it comes to the magic and maintenance behind the doll constructs Liurnia is known for. However, Ranni DIDN'T choose to have the doll made in her own former image, which was presumably well within her capabilities given the in-depth planning that went into her stealing and using Destined Death in the first place. Instead, she had it made to resemble a witch, Renna, who had taught her at some point in the past. In fact, during her first meeting with the player, she outright INTRODUCES herself as Renna, keeping her true identity close to her chest in the face of an unknown variable.

So, that explains it, right? She chose not to look like her old body because she wished to live in hiding, open and shut. But this is where small details start to get interesting. Ranni the Witch is called out by name by Morgott during his pre-fight cutscene, in which he looks across the various thrones in Leyndell abandoned by the other demigods. Radahn and Rykard's thrones are both much, much smaller than the forms we find them in during the course of the game - but oddly enough, RANNI'S is sized for the Renna doll she inhabits, a body that's outright shorter than the player character. We can find her original corpse at the top of Liurnia's divine tower, and she's just as huge as one might expect of a demigod.

This implies that, between the Night of the Black Knives when she performed her ritual and the Shattering, when the demigods went to war with one another over who got to take control of the Elden Ring, Ranni showed up to court with her fellow demigods in her doll body. This would completely defeat the purpose of trying to hide her identity from those who could pose a threat to her. In addition, Ranni shows that she can either extend her consciousness to other bodies, or inhabit other dolls entirely; during the latter part of her questline, you find her inhabiting a miniature version of her doll body, suggesting that she may be fully capable of switching to a different form if she was so inclined.

As a result, my suggestion is that Ranni wasn't just abandoning her original flesh because it was linked to the Two Fingers. If that was the case, she likely would have just stuck to that original body's form when choosing a replacement body to inhabit. It's not like there's some sort of overriding tactical, strategic, or even just physical benefit to the Renna doll, either; Ranni clearly LIKES to feel tall, judging by the stack of books she sits on in her tower to stay above eye level with the player character when they visit. In addition, while there's plenty of portraits and statues of the other demigods how they appeared pre-Shattering (save for the Omen brothers, for obvious reasons), Ranni's image is conspicuous for its absence throughout the entire game.

Ranni has enough incidental bits and pieces scattered around the game to suggest that she had deep personal reasons to inhabit her current form, reasons which go well beyond practicality. And honestly, the fact that signs point to the rest of her family being outright supportive of her (Rykard, who has portraits of the rest of his family, conspicuously leaving her out despite the implication that they were close, the fact that her throne is sized for the doll, etc.) is really heartwarming in an otherwise bleak setting if you choose to make this sort of reading.

Anyway thank you for allowing me to infodump about my blue nerdy-ass wife

[goji-pilled]

MK-S: Interesting, I hadn’t considered that as a sign of Rykard being blond; honestly, I thought the painting was actually made of stone, a sort of carving made of metal.

As for the other aspect, there’s something interesting I learned a while ago, and this was before the DLC: Apparently, the Fire Giant hair whip has a description that mentions both Radagon, him hating his red hair, and something about a curse from the Fire Giant. I had been watching a video that mentioned that some of the nuance may have been lost in translation, but I took away a possible meaning that his red hair was a curse from the Fire Giants. (Take this with a grain of salt/skepticism, but it is the foundation for a fun theory).

Something that had always bothered me about that was “What does Radagon have to do with the fire giants? It was Godfrey that was tasked with taking them out.” Then it hit me: We have Marika’s husband Godfrey, with his army, killing the fire giants. She is the top of the totem pole, and thus target of one last act of spite. And a curse of fiery red hair. What I’m getting at is that this may have been the moment where the fire giants, or their Fell God, split Marika in two, one Marika, and one Radagon. With Radagon containing all the parts of her dedicated to the Golden Order.

This may explain why she banished Godfrey and the Tarnished: They were the closest to her, and would notice any change in herself, so she banished them after this fight to keep anyone from learning this had happened. And Radagon was still powerful, plus Marika was now lacking a general, so she sent him to deal with Rennala while she tried to figure this out. Radagon was noted as trying to combine sorceries and incantations, seeking to become “complete” or “whole”.

It’s possible that Marika thought nothing of this, or his kids, until (And I’m just now considering this) Ranni was named an Empyerian. That draws the attention of the Two Fingers, who may want an explanation for how Marika split in two; Oh Yeah, and the fingers can take centuries to commune/talk to the Greater Will, so it’s a case of “I turn my back for one century, and you split yourself in two and one half makes an Empyrean child!”

So Radagon leaves. (I’m not sure how the Amber egg fits in here, especially since it seems like this Great Rune was removed before Marika smashed the Elden Ring.) Possibly in an attempt to be one being again, they end up conceiving the Twins; but the fact that they’re the same person split in two, their curses could be the demigod equivalent of birth defects.

Maybe when smashing the Elden Ring, the world itself broke apart, and when trying to reforge it, Radagon made them the same physical being, but the crack from their split remained.

Hope that was a fun theory. Have a good day.

trust me i was in shambles over finding out rykard was blonde too...

that aside, the whole radagon-fire giants connection thing is another whole can of worms id almost forgotten. i find your thought really interessting though. to punish marika for the war waged against the giants by splitting her apart, taking all the parts of her loyal to the golden order and giving it the image of the keepers of the flame capable of burning the erdtree, the very symbol of the order, sounds incredibly interessting. like we already know the greater will's influence on the world, it wouldnt be surprising if the fell god was capable of something like this.

and it does explain why radagon hates his hair so much and wants to be whole again so bad. not to mention it also works with something melina says marika said to him. something like "you have yet to become a god, you have yet to become me"

now my question is the timeline of events... maybe i have forgotten or not found it yet but the whole thing in the land of shadow shouldve happened like. before the erdtree was even a thing, while the war with the giants shouldve happened during the early stages of the erdtree.

which would not match up with the original point: messmer. since its clear he was marika's first born.

but again maybe i forgot or missed something in the timeline... there is so much information that can be so confusing in this game, im trying to keep up though!

[eldritchtouched]

Theory Time: Ranni either originally targeted and failed to kill Miquella on the Night of Black Knives, or he was a second target for Ranni's plan if Godwyn proved too powerful

How wonderfully absurd that sounds, no? There's implications in the background that they shared information with each other prior to the Shattering. Ranni knows Torrent's name and that he's a 'spectral' steed, and gives the spirit calling bell (which was implied to originally be Miquella's) to the Tarnished player character. Ranni uses sleep magic on Kale and his horse when they meet. Miquella was Torrent's former master, and invented sleep magic as St. Trina.

Spirit summons seems to be something found with the mages, since Rennala's "prime"/second phase includes the use of them as part of the fight and various mage towers have ghostly summons as part of their puzzles. But sleep magic seems to have been a recent invention (and Miquella is a notable creator, between the needles, Malenia's prosthetics, bewitching branches, sacramental buds, the pulley bow and pulley crossbow...).

Likewise, there's other connections, like how the Miquellan Knight Sword is modeled after the Carian blade (and noted in the description as such), but with amber instead of glintstone. This also becomes curious when you keep in mind the normal starlight shards are blue, but the amber starlight draught results in Ranni's leaving, should you follow Seluvis's request. (The amber starlight which makes it is found in St. Trina's hideaway, a location with a statue of Malenia and Miquella embracing and covered in sacramental buds.) The projection/illusion of Loretta guards Carian manor, but Loretta herself changed factions to join the Haligtree. There's also Carian battlemages guarding the Haligtree near Loretta.

Yet a lot of things are very odd about Ranni's course of actions. She does not side with Malenia to fight against Radahn, despite how Radahn is holding back the stars and, thus, preventing someone from accessing the Fingerslayer Blade she needs. So, why not? Why wait for an interminable amount of time until the Tarnished start coming back to the Lands Between? It is not as though she's an "honorable" kind of character, so making an alliance to kill Radahn and then leaving to do her own thing isn't unheard of. She was quite willing to kill one of her brothers already for her plan to shed her own body, and was willing to put Rykard's life on the line to steal from Maliketh. She also has no problems working with Seluvis, despite the man being a walking red flag, until he actively betrays her.

It makes a lot more sense if... she couldn't do that. If that was already an option closed off to her entirely.

While Miquella and Ranni have different motives, they are also not necessarily opposed in the long term. Miquella seeks to actually make a functional society outside of the whims of the Golden Order's plan, while Ranni is planning to fuck off to space on her own (or with the PC). The Age of Stars isn't actually tied to the Elden Ring or Elden Lord on its own, only if the PC both finishes her questline and summons her to deal with the Elden Ring.

So, why would I say that, that she would target Miquella?

Well, the Black Knives in Ordina are bizarre. Evergaols up until Ordina are established as being places which trap an individual for their crimes. Indeed, the ringleader, Alecto, is trapped in one. There's four Black Knives in the Ordina Evergaol, which is near the entrance to the Haligtree. Four Black Knives in one spot is a deeply strange thing. The Black Knives separated after the event to avoid detection and several died during the night they killed Godwyn (such as Tiche). These four were caught together.

There's also a corpse of a Black Knife outside of it. It's where you get their armor. And floating above that body are nascent butterflies (which are connected to Miquella).

And the Golden Epitaph, the weapon Miquella made after Godwyn's death with the prayer inscribed to it, has the seal of the Haligtree when you do its weapon art, meaning the Haligtree was already a thing when Godwyn was killed.

On top of that, from a pragmatic perspective, it would be much easier to kill a demigod cursed to be in a frail child's body than a demigod who fought and bested dragons. Especially since the former is in a very isolated location, while the latter is in the capital city.

It would also explain why the Haligtree, despite being a refuge for the outcast, is sealed off entirely and how he split the medallion. Castle Sol involved the Lord there trying to bring about some way to fix Godwyn's soulless state with a magic eclipse and the village of the Albinaurics is out of the way and requires going through a poison swamp to get there.

[blasphemousclaw]

hey, i was wondering if you had an opinion on why the carian children’s alliance fell apart during the shattering. between rykard having invented the abductor virgins that both ranni and radahn employ, and jerren stating that iji forged weapons for radahn’s army (if you talk to him about iji before the radahn festival while working for ranni), it seems the carians were helping each other out at the start. i have a few theories already, but i love your elden ring meta

first of all thank you!!

yeah I have a lot of thoughts about this. I think it ultimately comes down to the fact that their personal goals are entirely different and really don’t have anything to do with each other.

Radahn seems the most disconnected of the siblings in terms of his actions — judging by what we know, it doesn’t seem like a total upheaval of the current order was a priority for him as it was for his siblings. His specific motivations remain pretty opaque, but I believe, based on his obsession with Godfrey and all the references to honor and combat, that at his core he made the choices he did in order to prove his own strength and heroism.

I suspect this is why his halting of the stars hindered Ranni’s plans — he was never acting with her interests in mind. I doubt he was intentionally sabotaging her though, because there is no evidence of he and Ranni ever feuding. I’ve said this before, but the idea that Radahn’s halting of the stars is specifically holding Ranni back is a total afterthought to Iji… if Ranni were convinced Radahn bore her ill-will, killing him wouldve been her team’s objective years ago. Plus, Iji and Jerren are still amicable as you said. I think the situation is simply that, as Iji says, he and Jerren serve different masters with different priorities. The same goes for Radahn’s relationship with Rykard — I believe it’s implied Rykard tried to protect Radahn, but I don’t think this protection necessarily meant the two were working towards the same goals.

Rykard and Ranni are more complicated… I believe the Blasphemous Claw description implies that before the Night of the Black Knives, the two talked of a wider plan to “trespass” against the current world order: “Should the coming trespass one day transpire, they would serve as a last-resort foil, allowing Rykard to challenge Maliketh the Black Blade, the black beast of Destined Death.” Since there is evidence that these two did share plans with each other, it’s significant that they don’t really have anything to do with each other anymore.

I think this is due to the fact that though their goals were the same on paper — remove and usurp the current world order — their motivations and personalities are quite different.

Ranni is motivated by a desire to rid the world of godly influence because, as I believe, she owes her life’s misery to the gods’ meddling. She has no interest in ruling the Lands Between as a god-queen; rather, she intends for herself and her order to be “at great remove” from the goings on of the world. As god, she will be completely non-present.

Rykard very specifically does want to rule. He had great ambitions; his followers planned to serve him as their “worthy sovereign.” He despises being treated as a servant under the gods and having to fight for “miserly scraps” of power… he dedicated his life to destroying an order he believes is “suffocating,” asserting his own strength and authority in retaliation, operating under the philosophy of “the strong take.” At his core, Rykard’s goal was always the acquisition of power for his own benefit… and I believe this is why he ended up entangled with the Great Serpent, devouring and growing eternally, never satisfied… a caricature of greed and gluttony. Rykard’s personal goals essentially have nothing to do with Ranni’s far-reaching plans for a new order, and I think that’s why the two ended up on very different paths instead of working together.

I also think it’s interesting that Ranni and Rykard go about their plans in very different ways: Ranni prefers to work in the shadows and strike when the moment is right, keeping a cool head and a clear mind, trying to stay detached. She is said to have “cast aside” her great rune, probably because she distrusted its “mad taint.” Rykard on the other hand is rash and volatile, carrying out his treason in spectacularly public fashion. He is ruled by his ambition and hubris, clinging to the power afforded to him by his great rune.

In conclusion I don’t think there was ever a chance of the siblings all being on the same page — they’re each too different from one another with their own lofty goals and priorities, despite the love they might have for each other.

[cheshrae]

I remember some quite out there theories where Ranni got her idea of ‘losing’ her body from Miquella - except she saw where he failed (but now I’m thinking he did what he had to do instead of ‘failing’) and improved on it by successfully fusing her soul to the doll. I never thought about the repercussions of being around Rykard and the lord of blood, but surely it has its effects. Though I have seen others mention how he needed blood for his Haligtree? Hmm.

I think it’s in the description that mentioned Miquella is waiting ‘for his lord’. Does he have his own outer god? Did he always have one or was it met when he made his way to the shadow of the Erdtree? I never thought Miquella could be one of the villains (but what exactly is a villain in these games anyway haha). Super keen to see where this is all headed and what awesome and out there theories people come up with!

[kunosoura]

okay so the guidance of grace doesn’t completely walk you through the frenzied flame scam route or the age of stars ending but it does lead you to ranni, to the unalloyed gold needle, to the second half of the medallion needed to get to the conscrated snowfield, to the very beginning of the frenzied flame route at castle morne and to millicent. marika doesn’t offer any guidance to any of the other endings whatsover. the only other deviations from the route straight to the end of the game are to get great runes (specifically those of her loser distant grandson from her first marriage Godrick, her completely insane omnicidal son Rykard, and Radahn who is cringe and also nonsentient due to centuries of rotting from the inside out due to scarlet rot.

putting aside zero-fun explanations like “you’re reading too much into a tutorial game mechanic”, I think this proves two things: one, that we can say conclusively that the guidance of grace come from Marika and not Radagon using her admin privileges as is the case with the contemporary black knife assassins (he’s completely loyal to the golden order and would have zero reason to countermand them and guide a tarnished to ascend, let alone lead them to the doorstep of two different enemies of the golden order who happen to be currently recruiting tarnished); two, that her goal isn’t merely to see the elden ring reforged with a new, stronger elden lord of any sort (there are too many superfluous diversions and it’s notable to me that she, as far as I can tell, offers zero guidance towards the Death, Fundamentalist, or Curse endings).

so like. i’m not saying that this confirms the marika/carian conspiracy theory where marika conspired with ranni not just to do the night of black knives but also to usurp the golden order and bring about ranni’s vaguely buddhist age of stars, with Melina being the cast of reincarnation of Marika’s souls born partially to guide a tarnished to complete the task but also so marika herself could escape the punishment for her sin, with her leaving clues subtle enough to guide that tarnished towards the best outcome for her (scamming the frenzied flame so Marika doesn’t have to go through with a self sacrifice to unleash destined death and unmake the old order). but like... i’m not seeing what other explanations are offered for Marika’s guidance leading you towards these exact things and nothing else! it also explains why Melina refuses to talk to a tarnished that embraces then purges the frenzied flame: she hates her “mother”/previous incarnation for her callous calculating nature and her willingness to take massive risks and incur great suffering in pursuit of a goal, and you’re all too similar to that. she dumps you because her mom would approve of you!!

[blondie090]

Great post i agree with evrything thats being said here,so i wanted to a few nore rhings to this theory:-

I refuse to belive morgott learned all the shit he knows without any external help,like the dude is a master of 4 weapons,knows holy incants,unlike other omens he and his brother can actually speak and that too fluently,can create projections of himself and his father,can seal things away like leyndell's entrance and 3 fingers access point,knows 2 fingers language,smart enough to create sentry torch,strategic genius and the shattering only ended in stalemate because he took control of leyndell,knows about all his siblings despite never interacting with any of them and the list goes..so he probably learned these things and skills from marika and godfrey(this also follows the pattern of demigods having a mentor like radahn has alabasterlord,malenia has blind swords man,ranni has renna,godwyn has fortissax,rykards possibly inspired by messmer etc.. so morgott having a secret mentor like marika and godfrey makes sense here)

Also to point out marika probably couldn't visit her omen son's after her merger with radagon because of radagon despises everything related to crucible and he became dominant half later in the story and kept on actively supressing marika so radagon probably stopped marika from ever visiting her sons which could explain why mohg started to resent marika later on and found solice with formlessmother because marika stopped visiting him but he didn't know the actual reasoning behind his mother's absence and morgott of course finds solice with erdtree(a symbol that's created by marika and godfrey unlike radagon's fundamentalism which is exclusively his thing)the one thing I think youre getting wrong is margott ruled as a veiled monarch and people didn't know their new king of leyndell was a omen,the only omen that public knows is his margit projection(even gideon is surprised to find out that morgott is king of leyndell and there's a entire cut questline about a leyndell citizen trying to find the identity of veiled monarch only to be disgusted after finding out that leyndell is being ruled by a omen)

Anyway thanks for making this post because I thought I was the only one to argue that marika loved her omen sons and to argue marika is not that evil of a character that the community makes her out to be,so I'm glad someone outthere that shares the same perspective on the lore as me.

I think to make sense of how Marika feels about her Omen twins, you need to follow a string of:

1/ how bad is Marika’s PTSD?

2/ how bad are people in the Lands Between in general feel about the Hornsent? The Hornsent is very much leading a whole empire that is hunting down anyone they deem inferior, even their own brethren. the fanbase tend to forget that people of Land of Shadow and Lands Between have every reason to already feel grievance towards the Hornsent royalty, even without Marika’s influence.

They were the Golden Order before Golder Order was even a thing (and they want that, btw, the Greatsword of Damnation skill description very much pointed out that the Hornsent royalty wanted to build their own Golden Order under the banner of the Spiraltree, they are just pissed as hell Marika wrenched that divinity from them and made it under the Erdtree instead).

And Marika, even as a God, was still just one person, with an ailing son at the beginning. If she wanted to consolidate power, she had to unite other people under a common cause. And I do think she promised them a world abundance of healing blessing and no death, and no one will suffer under the Hornsent anymore (sounds awfully familiar, isn't it. except that Marika was always gunning for revenge as well). Omens being shunned that badly can’t be just because of Golden Order propaganda, it’s also because people in fact did suffer under the Hornsent and still remember it too.

3/ Messmer, who is fanatical to the point of even though he admits the Tarnished has Marika’s sanction, he will still hunt them down because he considers them lightless / unworthy, who was very much around when the Omen twins were born, why did he do nothing about it?

I’m pretty sure he has no qualm about killing babies, he doesn’t gaf about his siblings chasing something doomed to fail, he very much goes extra miles to torture any Hornsent on his way. So who protected the twins from him? Who hid them from him?

1 + 2 + 3 = you have a Marika who still very much suffered PTSD from what her people went through, she thought she had escaped, she thought she had managed to build a world where everyone was free from Hornsent’s cruelty and always bathed in gentle ray of healing - something the minor erdtree in her village could never do, because there was no one there to heal. But now she gave birth to … Omens?

It’s a sign that whatever the Hornsent once did to her, it’s left a taint forever inside her (yes i very much believed she was under the Hornsent capture before she managed to run away, either via the Mimic Veil or other means). That she never really escaped that cold dark gaol. And for all of his belief in her sanctity, I think Messmer knew that too, that it’s a wound he could never heal, and now all he could do was to make sure she wouldn’t be tainted further.

And after distress, came fear. Fear for the Omen twins, even though she should hate them, she still loved them, she couldn’t help it. She carried them for months and had loved them all that time. That wouldn’t stop even when they triggered all of her trauma at once.

I think it should be noted that in the DLC there is an item that is the same as Omen Bairn item in the base game, which points out that Omen (or in their case, Hornsent) babies with overgrown horns meet a frightfully early demise. Morgott and Mogh both have overgrown horns. But they are alive! They are ! Very much alive! And grow into adulthood!

Who healed them? Who kept them alive? Who else but the woman who used to make several blessing flasks for her cursed firstborn, whose innate power is healing, right?

Before the Omen twins, Omen babies had their horns excised, causing them to perish, but once there are ones born into royal linage, exile is on the table? and again, they have overgrown horns, and still live to adulthood. if they were left to rot in prison, they would have already died.

Marika built a world with a promise that the cruel shadow the Hornsent cast would never befall there, but now… she gave birth for two of them. Her position as a God Queen was of no use if her people clamored for the twins’ death, her duty to them will always outweigh her personal feelings. But she sure as hell would not let her sons die, either.

They weren't exiled to faraway land, they were kept under the capital, presumably so Marika could visit and heal them if their horns caused them pain, the shackles were made so they wouldn't wander up above and ran into civilians that pretty much would call on the Omenkillers to go after them. it was a cruel existence, yes, but it's all she could do for them. she tried her best out of love.

That is why Godfrey never held it against her, even when it's apparent he loves Morgott (as he cradles his son's body gently in the boss cutscene). Godfrey knew she had done everything she could.

All of that above answers this 4th question: why Morgott was accepted as Lord of Leyndell, even went so far as having command over a whole army of the Night's Cavalry?

In the time of unrest, Omens were welcomed in the army, but they were distrusted, even their weapons have an enchantment on it so it could be taken back if they tried something funny.

But Morgott was trusted to command a whole army and held the walls of Leyndell for that long?

The only way I could rationalize that is after she was forced to separate from Messmer, Marika brought both Morgott and Mohg back to live with other demigods. A big part of the Erdtree's power force was in Messmer's hand, now that he was not there anymore, I imagine people would become more accepting of letting Omens join their rank. And because Messmer was not there, the twins would actually not have to deal with him. In a twisted way, when Marika lost her beloved firstborn, she gained the other two back.

Even though they weren't officially recognized as her child, but more as warriors serving in Leyndell army, Morgott proved himself with his tactical mind and combat prowess (while Mogh used the resources brought by his new position to secretly started funding his blood cult, and this is how I think he met Miquella and all the stuffs in that part of the lore happened. Like you can't convince me he built that whole palace and had all that fancy clothes without money or resources taken from somewhere else).

Then Godwyn died, and Morgott witnessed everything thereafter. and the rest of the story, we knew how it played out.

So yeah, that's my take on the timeline and story of the Omen twins. I know it doesn't have a strong official description backup as my theory on Messmer, but I feel like this makes sense with all of my other interpretation, and if you agree with those, they are what actually back up this one.

If I draw Morgott in the future, it'll also be based on this premise.

[dragon-communion]

This might be a tricky one lmao, but do you have any opinions or theories on why defeating/killing (like I know he's not actually dead till we unleash Death, but the game won't let us interact with him so...) Morgott... just completely transforms him?

There's only like the tiniest crumb in the DLC about the Omen issue, and it's completely unrelated to this aspect so I keep going "What does this MEAN?" like a madman at it.

We actually see another instance of this with Godrick! His body is also left after the fight, I forget if we can further damage him though.

With Godrick, I think every modification he made to himself was winnowed away in death. Specifically, I think we took it from him, by taking all of his runes.

What would that mean for Morgott, and by extension Mohg? Mohg leaves no body, and apparently there's a reason for that in the DLC. But when we "kill" Morgott and wrench his rune from him, I think we're also taking the essence of his life experience and compiled strength. That's what runes are for us, after all. Strength. Conviction. Our abilities and skills. What is Morgott without the horrible strength that supports him being a "monster"? Maybe just a man.

I think Omens are one of the things that can happen if someone is born with too much life in them, too many runes twisting the strength and shape of their body from birth. Weird horns are not unique to human babies, we can harvest them from animals too, so there's something there. Omens just grow, kind of like Godwyn does, but they get dragon-adjacent deformities instead of aquatic ones.

I'm determined to back up the idea that the Crucible just rewires everything into a discount dragon. I mean look at the extra limb options. And the Misbegotten.

If it was natural or easy to just strip all of those runes from an Omen, I think it would've seen more success with others, but Morgott is also built different thanks to Marika and can probably hover there half-dead for longer than anyone has a right to because demigod privileges.

I've got a headcanon that when he finally dusts in Godfrey's arms, that's him transferring his ashes to his father to continue serving the Erdtree after death.

To be honest, most of the demigods barring Radahn and Mohg seem to leave weird corpses- Malenia's flower, Rykard's head, Ranni's vaguely Pompeii-statue-esque remains, so I think there's some footing there for the "built different" argument.

[violetsystems]

I made it to Malenia which it's worth it to note that she's an optional boss even though everyone talks about her. She's the one who let loose the Scarlet Rot on Caelid in terms of lore. Scarlet Rot is a damage over time effect that does just that. The first phase is hard if you don't know that every hit she lands heals including your shield. It's best to stagger her with Theodorix's Magma which is a Dragon Incantation after icing her down with Borealis's Mist. You'd have to kill a few dragons for those. Fighting with a mimic seems best if you don't have the appropriate +10 spirit ashes. I suppose you could summon someone but I've been less reliant on that this play through. The blasphemous blade you get from Rykard in Volcano Manner is probably best suited for her because the first phase is pure melee. I messed up some quest lines beating him first but that's what new game plus is for. Malenia's second phase is pure Elden Ring shitshow. She turns into an orange flower and AOE's rot everywhere dropping you down 80% hit points which gives you only a couple of seconds to flask back up and remove rot. I've only gotten her down halfway in the second phase after maybe five tries. But I'm now level 180 or something. The fact that it's optional points to the fact that if you rushed the game you'd miss a ton of quest lines. I just finished the Ranni quest which was bittersweet. You unintentionally betray someone you fought side by side with by becoming her consort but it's hinted that you were a better fit for her anyway. Seeing as how Iji locks Blaidd up in an evergol. You have the choice to let him out. And that can come back to haunt you if you get sentimental revisiting Ranni's crib. Back to Malenia's quest line, there's a bunch of Radagon lore tied to her as she is both the daughter of him and Marika and the twin sister of Miquella. The bloom of the second phase has something to do with her being reborn which hints that there is a third phase which you do not see. A guess is that you fight her again in the DLC and it has something to do with the Milicent quest line. All of this happens before you decide to burn the Erdtree which also means it's optional. It's mammoth and the lore behind it is crazy enough to be pure George R.R. Martin even if I haven't really gotten into Game of Thrones. I'm sure they probably would have cut the entire Haligtree out of the game if it were a different publishing company. But considering I still have to beat Mohg and clean up a few loose ends with Malenia before I start the end of the game, it's taken me forever. Insult to injury, if you down Malenia it apparently doesn't mention you felled a god. Which brings more credibility to the third bloom theory. As far as spoilers go? You would have to literally get to Malenia to even think about half of this shit. And that is a mess and a half. Thirty levels and a few somber ancient smithing dragon stones are worth it. But it definitely keeps my mind off how slow and alienating the process has been trying to move forward from my previous life. I hope my third bloom is as batshit as that boss fight.