#i have not started dd yet but i think he should start forging evidence again as soon as he gets his badge back

[planet4546b]

also i just think it’s the most fun when you admit phoenix is up to some shit in aa4. the first thing he does is trick apollo into the same situation that got him disbarred. he’s using his daughter to cheat at cards. the mason system is about half a straight up lie. he rigged the jurist system. admittedly part of the plot is the way the justice system is broken so that he feels like he has to do this but he’s also doing it for like 95% self interest. which is fun. he’s not a person who is continuing to stand by a strong moral framework even though he had been placed in a bad situation he’s a person who saw that moral framework broken and said Oh word does this mean i can lie now? cool. i hope the next car that hits him finishes the job. love himmmmm

[dust2dust34]

There's this Kastle theory floating around, that I agree w, that the speech Frank gave Karen @ the diner in 2x11 was in fact more about Frank/Karen than it was about Karen/Matt. Especially later when Frank told Karen to get away from him (he so clearly think she deserves better than him). Personally it reminded me of when Oliver in "Arrow" S2 gave Felicity that speech, "I just think it's better for me to not be w someone who I could really care about." IMO, there's a lot of parallels. Thoughts?

Oh my god, I just read this fantastic meta about that very thing just this very second and YES I LOVE IT SO MUCH. 

I stopped watching DD right before Karen met Frank, and it was only after I inhaled The Punisher that I went back and rewatched the season (specifically their scenes together) so I’ve been coming at them from a totally different POV than people who have been on the Kastle ship so much longer. 

Aka that diner scene never sat well with me, not ever, and that meta absolutley nailed it on the head: I didn’t like it because what Frank is saying is from his incredibly limited POV. I’m trying to see it on the surface and that can’t work because what he’s saying regarding Matt is so damn plain wrong. He’s seeing what’s in front of him and he’s making his assumptions about it, but we - the viewers - know better. Karen also knows better, but she’s allowed to be confused about it because of her own knowledge and trust in Frank’s word (rather limited as it is at the time considering she doesn’t know his subconscious intention or his very conscious intent in using her as bait). 

I haven’t had a chance to really meta anything (yet?), or to read a bunch of meta, not like I have with Olicity, but once I found that meta up there, HOLY HOT DAMN YES. It changes how I view Kastle completely and it’s gorgeous...

And it totally fits what Oliver said to Felicity in 2x06 exactly! 

Just like that amazing meta refers to Frank’s speech being about Frank and Karen vs. Matt and Karen, Oliver was aware of his burgeoning feelings for Felicity as much as he was aware that Felicity had feelings for him. Felicity’s question about his actions and her observation about him deserving better (as well as the unintended intent behind it) is what prompted Oliver to say what he did to her. It’s a recognition of her (their) feelings, but it was also a reflection of how he viewed himself and how he lived his life (and how much he really needed to grow to be worthy of her). 

THE SAME THING APPLIES TO FRANK. 

He’s very aware of his connection with Karen, incredibly aware of it. He’s far too observant to be unaware of it. It’s something that goes beyond an intentional connection between two people, it’s something that starts with two damaged humans who found each other in a dark spot, when they thought nobody else could find them. And they didn’t bother hiding any of their scars. There’s no reason for them to lie to each other, they have always had everything on the table (well, getting past the bait thing, which was something else beautifully talked about in that meta, Frank’s reaction when Karen said he was honest and he looked so uncomfortable because was so not being honest in that very moment about that), and that forges a bond that is indescribable. 

But it’s also so incredibly dangerous, which is the core of Frank’s words. Frank recognizes what this connection with Karen is doing to her, although he only thinks he understands the reasoning behind it: he thinks it’s because of him, but it’s because of everything else in her life just as much. He is part of it but she’s in a transition in the latter half of S2 of DD - in her career, in her friendships, her love life, everything - and Frank inadvertently becomes a steady place for her in this upheaval. But not just a steady thing, a consistent thing, something that is there before, during and after (in The Punisher). But Frank doesn’t know that! And because of that he tries to push her away, to try and make her see that she has a life and it should have nothing to do with him... except there’s one hitch that’s unique to Kastle: that’s her damn choice. Frank knows that. (It’s one of the million things I love about Kastle, that mutual respect between them. Guh, I love it.) And as if his words weren’t enough, Frank takes it a step further, when she realizes she’s bait and he doesn’t apologize for it - that’s his way of laying his cards out on the table. This is who he is, this is what he’s about, and she needs to see that. And then he takes it even a step further by telling her to stay away from him. But again, that’s still her choice. All he can do is be honest with her, and he is... and that’s what she responds to. It’s why she continues to choose him, why she continues to help him. She could have chosen to go back to her life, to turn back to Matt, to listen to the surface bullshit that were Frank’s words. But she doesn’t. There are no airs with Frank Castle, not like there with Matt, or even Foggy to a degree. Karen is just herself with him, just as much as Frank is himself with her. 

So as much as she’s choosing Frank here, she’s also, in a sense, choosing herself.

That is one thing that was missing with Oliver and Felicity, especially in the earlier seasons. Over and over Oliver chose for Felicity, whether intentionally or unintentionally, which is was fine until his feelings for her started becoming so evident, which means they were entering a realm where they were supposed to be on even ground, to be equals, but Oliver never could give that up because he couldn’t escape his own self-loathing (until later).

With Kastle, it’s that shared trauma, the very thing that Oliver tries to protect Felicity from, that Frank and Karen bond over. And that’s why they can always go to each other, why they do go to each other. (That will be interesting, though, for any future potential relationship between them, how that plays out. As much as they are intrinsically tied together because of what they share, it’s a bit of a rocky foundation for anything.)

Anyway, to answer your original question, yes! The parallel is there and I love it.

(I am super babbling, and I’m just starting to really define Kastle in my head. so I’m posting this for myself so I can come back to it later. I am also  here for all the Kastle and Olicity parallels.)

[quonit-aceattorney]

4-2 Reaction (WIP)

Rules:

Q = Me, Quonit.

BF = Bardic Feline, the friend that made me spend 30 dollars on the game and whom I am messaging

I don’t use those when I send the messages close enough my username doesn’t appear.

Any typos (unless they are funny and part of the conversation) will be fixed.

Index

---

Q: Turnabout Corner. Sounds nice enough.spin thingCARconstumes?3DNOoh so we die nowhehe the office is a mess i hate it whatever

HI LIL PERSON

Q:

Apollo's special talents: having a V for hair

hat is all i can think of

hehe this girl is great

SHE is the best person here

-Apollo punched my boy and

-Phoenix is being stupid

-THIS GIRL IS JUST BEING GREAT

lol hahahahaha...

Q:

best

she's 15? she looked younger than that

Apollo: I'm sure there's a good explanation. (I hope...) As i said im pretty sure she's adopted.

Apollo: I'm sure there's a good explanation. (I hope...) As i said im pretty sure she's adopted.

Trucy: He's in the hospital WHAT

Q:

yesss she is coming with me

hey hotti: die

i wonder how old he is now

BF:

to be fair, Phoenix did risk Apollo's entire career with that with little move.

I mean, as far as I"m concerned, he was justified, but Polly did have a right to be miffed. I'd have felt pretty used, too

haha and Trucy kind of gives off that air on purpose.

Q:

If i think about it that way it does make sense --- Phoenix: Thankfully i hit a telephone pole with my head Apollo: You hit a telephone pole with your head???!!? Me: Don't worry he's gotten assaulted many time he can handle it

BF:

it's more pronounced in the Japanese, but there was no good way to translate her speech patterns

Q:

ah..

BF:

BASICALLY she has a stage persona that she keeps on almost all the time, and it's a very cute one.

Q:

aw... man

these two are guilt tripping me into joining. ahahaha.

BF:

but she'll drop it a bit when she's talking about the things she's really proficient at, which tells you that she's honestly VERY smart

Q:

alright!

BF:

hahah if they'd tried to translate it fully, it would have given her a speech pattern that comes across as more annoying than endearing to an English speaker, so they had to lose some of that nuance for us.

Q:

makes sense.

Q:

dangit! It seems i can't present profiles anymore...

hey phoenix I'm carrying on the tradition

LOOK AT MY BADGE AND CRY ABOUT HOW YOU CAN'T FLASH YOURS ANYMORE

STUPID

Q:

IF THERE IS ONE THING I WILL NOT NOT DO FOR YOU IT IS FLASH MY GOD DAMN BADGE

Hi client! you remind me of instant noodles

Q:

and he owns a harmonica

Q:

Guy: It was stolen! My stand! Stolen! Oh ya now that guy walking around with a cart behind him in the intro makes sense

sir that's not a whistle

BF:

Eldoooooooon

Q:

sounds like you like him!

BF:

Eldoon is great hahah

Q:

Apollo keeps insisting he's a lawyer not a detective but he has no idea how much detective work it seems a lawyer usually needs to do I probably shouldn't use the first three games as an example because apparently phoenix is evil or smthn BUT

what did who steal Trucy

Q:

oh no

dangit so maybe sense that was brought up it has to do with the guy who stool the cart accidently running past or something

BF:

have a biiiit more faith in Nick hahaha

Q:

stop crying about panties I'll buy you new ones I LIKE HIM A LOT I'm just talking from apollo's perspective because he apparently is mad at him for something im not allowed to hear about. Otherwise, im almost 100% with Phoenix

I still refuse to use the nickname 'nick' haha

BF:

Oh, no you know. He's miffed about the forged ace from the last trial, and he's also just mad in general that that trial resulted in him losing a steady job.

Q:

aww...

BF:

YES IT WAS FOR THE GREATER GOOD, but Apollo did end up being out of work for a month or so

Q:

DANGIT phoenix i understand and also Kris is probably evil BUT dangit whater I'm still mostly on your side

Now my age old tradition of: Examine everything because dialogue

Q:

Mr. Charley... I remember that... HEY

BF:

hahaha yeah, but no...I'm bang on Phoenix's side too, but you still have to consider that from Apollo's POV, in a single trial, he found out his trusted mentor wasn't the person he thought he was, AND he had his hero use him as a pawn.

Q:

Apollo don't judge my boy about a potted plant. Especially when you yell at the top of your lungs before every trial. you have no wright to judge puns

BF:

AGAIN, for the greater good...Kristoph wouldn't have been the best mentor to continue having in the long run...but that all still has got to sting.

lololol

CHARLEY IS AN ESTABLISHED MEMBER OF THIS OFFICE

Q:

WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU ONLY HAVE TWO MEMBERS THERE ARE 3

pleeeaaaassseeeee

Phoenix explain more and be nicer and be better and you know what you're mostly fine and Apollo im sorry for what he did please move on

Q:

....I need to sleep now. I got a lot done though!

BF:

hahaha okaaaay

gniiight

Q:

let's recap on what happened when i last played: Apollo had to suffer through an extremly hard tutorial level and then punched a homeless man. Homeless man and his kid guilt tripped into helping some awesome noddle guy find his stand, help homeless guy find out who ran him over, and help his kid find her panties. ALRIGHT

Q:

not sure if i examined everything yet so

Q:

Trucy apparently uses the split box for furniture. Very smart. Apollo is creeped out though.

Q:

Apollo: But you can't play the piano with all of the stuff on it I thought you already knew that nobody around here is going to be playing piano

Q:

i should really sto examining everything and actually start doing stuff

to the accident scene

THUMBFACE!!! i remember seeing a picture of her

Q:

i like her

Q:

Hey so apollo likes tea too! Awesome!

THE MAN WHO FLEW 30 FEET AND THEN JUST WALKED AWAY YES

Q:

Apollo let her handle it she's obviously doing much better than you are

Q:

i hate how we can't present profiles anymore

who is this yellow person

Q:

IT'S EMA!!!

AND A COOLER VERSION OF HER SONG IS PLAYING

BF:

I told you someone was coming back sooooooon~

Q:

:DD

once again i am so mad i can't present profiles anymore. H

Q: yes. How could she.

alright!

Q: she is doing that glasses thing she did i love her

hey miss can you help me go to talk to ema

BF: hahaha Ema being a grouchy pants?

I got you on this. Go talk to HoboNick

BF: lol I'm not sure how many people agree with me on this, but I actually love grumpy Ema.

Q:

so do I love her

HEY NICK WHERE ARE YOU

BF:

just LEAVE ME ALONE I"M EATTING. *angry munching*

Q:

dagit where is he

Q:

hehe

well i can't find him so im going to go to that room i havn't been at yet

oh hey it's the eldoon guy

Q:

i bet you expected i already met with him but nope

BF:

met with whom?

Q:

eldoon... you told me to meet up with phoenix but he wasn't there so I assumed i needed to do something before he reappeared or he was in a different place i should no about already.

how did i mix up know and no

awww the dog needs food

BF:

hmmm maybe I misremembered...have you tried back at the office?

Q:

i need to get to the office to get to the clinic place. Now that i'm done here maybe it updated

Q:

nah it didn't. I have another room to go to now though!

Q:

looks like i found the panties

so that is why they were son important to her! They were magic!

Q:

Apollo: Look, it's a folding ladder Trucy: That's called a 'step ladder' oh my god

Admit it Trucy your father's logic is flawed

BF:

hahahah MAGIC PANTIES

get used to those, they will be mentioned a LOT

Q:

oh boyphoenix still isn't back. I'll keep checking in to see what is going on and if he is back

BF:

Hmmm. maybe I was wrong about that.

Q:

i think you were right but you were wrong about what time

Q:

When you're stuck: CHECK THE TALK BUTTON

BF:

hahaha ALWAYS A GOOD IDEA

and present everything to everyone!

Q:

ow could they do this to me.

BF:

I think they decided that was too complicated hahah

Q:

oh ya! I forgot! I can examine the examined!

Q:

yay i found another peice of evidence

i only have 5

Q:

im stuck

BF:

Hmmmm

talk to Little Plum again?

I know she has more than one piece of evidence

Q:

hey! Trucy found stuff in the trash can!!

it's the mirror to the car!!

Q:

yesss i think we can talk to phoenix again now

yaaaaay hello homeless person

Q:

why is yellow girl at the office/home

Q:

Well sure i'll defend. You look like you could pay me so I'm sure apollo would be glad.

BF:

hahha BINGO if Alita's around and you've got a confirmed corpse, you are definitely on the right track

Q:

yess

BF:

oh and yeah I should have asked if you'd checked the trash can

Q:

aw he looks cute IS THAT A BLUE BADGER SHIRT :OOO --- it's fine, haha

BF:

hahaha THIS GUY

and YES AND NO. this doesn't spoil much, I think, to say that's a character from the Badger universe

like Bad Badger or something. You can tell he's up to no good because he wears SUNGLASSES

Q:

THE DETENTION CENTER LOOKS SO DIFFERENT what the heck

BF:

it's fancier looking now is all hhahahah

remember to examine everything~

Q:

oh ya!

BF:

whoop brb but I'll tell you one thing...you'll KNOW EXACTLY when you are about to meet the rockstar prosecutor

Q:

yesss

Q:

it's another mr. gavin

uh

uh

uhh

what the

EMA SAVE ME

Ema: Anyway! This scene is off limits! NOT ANYMORE

I thought i would be happy to meet that guy but that just confused me so much hahaha

Q:

she's not talking to me but she'ss till great

Q:

well she isn't talking with me but i found eldoon's cart

Q:

Phoenix: Apollo. Tell me about this 'prince' of Trucy's. Well uh he's apparently bisexual and flirted with me and was very nice to your daughter and absolutely shocked me even though i thought i saw it coming

Q:

Apollo: White power...? I hope it's not what i think it is... THIS GAME

Q:

i forgot where he said it was

i am terrible with instructions apparently because i remember this happening before

Q:

and it doesn't look like he's going to repeat himself. Dammit.

Q:

Phoenix: Some kid i know keeps sending them to me oh hey was that the not-by name reference to Maya?

i need to find the white power stuff but i don't remember where it is

BF:

it's in the office!

BF:

ahahah and yes, that's almost certainly a Maya reference...the only character who's even close as much of a Steel Samurai fan as her is Edgeworth, and I don't see Edgey sending Nick DVDs and making him right reports

SO MAYA STILL AROUND

SOMEWHERE. AND KEEPING IN TOUCH

Q:

BACK

whaaat Edgey likes steel samurai? BACK TO GAME

to the office.

(where in the office

BF:

hahaha yeah it's kind of a subtle side gag in the original trilogy, but there are hints. the biggest one being the fact that he actually displays the SS figure Oldbag gave him in his office

it's more of a blatant running gag in other games.

Q:

nice haha

Q:

(this office is so cluttered where the hell is it)

BF:

and IIRC it should be on the split cabinet thing. the one used for the saw trick

I mean in cluttered rooms like that examine everything anyway, but I think that's where it is. or Very near there/

Q:

examined it and i can't find it :( I'll try checking near it

found it!!!

Trucy: I thought it was sugar so i looked it... He got mad at me DON'T LICK IT

APOLLO IT'S NOT DRUGGS

HEY EMA CAN YOU TALK TO ME NOW

Q:

yay :D

now that i am over the initial chock of meeting him i decided i like Klavier btw

Q:

Ema: A pistol... Not that easy to come by in this day and age let's hope so

BF:

hahaahah. GOTTA REALIZE HE ISN'T HIS BROTHER IN DIFFERENT CLOTHES

Q:

THEY AREN'T EVEN TWINS

BF:

but they DO look absurdly alike.

I know right? Can you believe that Kris is like 8 years older that Klavier?

Q:

EIGHT??? whaaat

BF:

7-8...I forget which. it's a big age gap.

but if you slapped glasses on Klav, you'd have a hard time telling them apart

Q:

I'm going to come back. This is great.

IM GOING TO EAT DINNER

BF:

hahah OKAY

Q:

back

Q:

Trucy don't act so surprised. Like, there has been no time i can recall when the evidence when first presented has been directly helpful.

Q:

ema is great i love her

....though i think we're done talking with her for now

WAIT NO I CAN EXAMINE STUFF

Q:

more underwear!