#i get this is a common issue with fandom treatment of female characters but COME THE FUCK ON. IT'S A CANON CHARACTER TRAIT.

[avephelis]

every time someone mischaracterises jay ferin as the therapist friend a fairy loses its wings btw. put some respect on her emotionally-constipated ass.

[anendtopursuit]

certain corners of the jayvik shipping community erasing jayce's love for mel and insisting it was never real is frustrating for various reasons

the first (and imo most concerning) is the casual disregarding of mel's character and relationship (a black woman as a primary love interest! something that is unfortunately not as common as it should be!), falling not only into the incredibly common misogynistic fandom tendency to dismiss/demonise women who "get in the way" of mlm ships, but also into the misogynoir of the "disposable black girl" trope - something i implore you to research and consider not only when interacting in fandom spaces but also when critiquing the show itself and its treatment of mel/sky. similar sort of issues come with people dismissing mel's affection for him as manipulation when she's arguably far less manipulative than viktor (gestures @ the whole "he was the person who set jayce on this path the entire time" bombshell), their relationship was always mutually beneficial, and we're shown her perspective multiple times without their relationship ever being portrayed as insincere. how is it not manipulative for jayce to use mel's influence to become a councillor and push heimerdinger out etc, but it's manipulative for mel to make suggestions about the usage of hextech? would you think the same way about these actions if it were viktor doing them?

second of all: insisting that jayce's love for his literal girlfriend must be fake because he's in love with a man feels so oddly strict and binary for such a queer fandom/ship. if paralleling viktor and mel's scenes leads you to interpret his relationship with viktor as romantic, then surely his relationship with mel must still be romantic too for that comparison to make sense? bisexual erasure is especially prevalent when it comes to men and male characters (due to biphobic and misogynistic beliefs about bisexuality being "a women's sexuality" caused by "female promiscuity" or some archaic bullshit like that). insisting that he can only love one and not the other, and then dismissing his affections for mel if you decide he loves viktor, also just reeks to me of the "pick a side" mentality and, again, is weirdly monogamous for such a queer fandom. i realise this may sound like a reach to some people since jayce isn't explicitly canonically bi, but i still think it's a good idea to be cautious about how you have these discussions and any implications they may have, especially if it impacts a real life community that already regularly faces erasure

tl;dr you can be a jayvik liker and also be normal about mel medarda and meljay. please for the love of god be normal about mel medarda and meljay.

[suncchaser]

Misogyny in the Marauders Fandom

DISCLAIMER: This is not a personal attack. I have spoken on this topic a couple of times already on this blog and I simply decided to make a separate post to compile all my thoughts on this because this is a topic that is important TO ME. If you find it annoying, or ranty or unnecessary, you are entitled to your opinion. Also, I am not a native English speaker, so I apologize in advance for any possible mistakes. 

Since I created this blog, I have been open about my opinion that the Marauders fandom (and the Harry Potter fandom in general), like many others (I would dare say most others) is incredibly misogynistic. This is an opinion I have held for many, many years and one that I have seen a lot of people share, but usually with a lot of backlash from the people who tend to disagree. And that backlash tends to come with a certain degree of cynicism that bothers me quite a bit. 

Every single time I have seen discussions on this topic, the concept of misogyny being used is always incredibly simplistic. Misogyny isn’t the mere concept of hating women. It goes deeper than that. Every single one of us, regardless of gender identity and sexuality (because some people on this app think being attracted to women absolves them from misogyny), have ingrained prejudices against women simply because of the society we operate in. We are taught these things from a very young age and it’s hard to unlearn them. I am writing this as a 25 year old woman who needs to check herself quite often because I am not perfect and like everyone else, I have these prejudices too. And these biases will manifest on every aspect of our lives and interactions, including on how we engage with fandom because our actions do NOT exist in a vacuum. It’s all a manifestation of who we are as people.

Does this mean every single Marauders fan who chooses to engage with primarily male-centered and mlm content is a horrible person? Of course not. The main point I have been trying to make is more often than not, these biases are not at all conscious. There is no ill-intent behind their actions. That’s why I keep saying it has never been a personal attack on anyone. It has always been a broader discussion on a broader issue. 

One of the most common rebuttals I have seen when this topic is brought up is the idea that the fandom is so male-centered because most of the characters we have any canon development on are men and therefore we should blame J.K Rowling for not writing women better. We can blame J-K Rowling for many things because there are indeed many problematic things in the Harry Potter books, including misogyny in her treatment of female characters. However, that argument does not apply here for more than one reason. 

The first reason and the most blatant is how proudly this side of the fandom has distanced themselves from canon. So, you cannot in one moment say “we don’t care that (insert male character the fandom has decided to assign a sob story) was a bad person in the books because we don’t care about canon” while at the same time, blaming canon for the reason why the female characters do not get a fraction of the attention male characters get. You either care for canon or you don’t. 

The second reason and I have mentioned that several times before is the characters the fandom chooses to develop from the crumbs we get in the books. Regulus, Barty and Evan have been the three male characters who have had a massive surge in popularity since around four/five years ago and at the moment, I would dare say they are the three most popular characters outside of James, Sirius and Remus, who are basically the main characters of this era. While Barty was an important character in the Goblet of Fire, Regulus and Evan are no more than mentions and were not important at all to the story (do not lecture me about Regulus, he has a cool and interesting backstory but it has no impact on the story apart from giving Kreacher substance and make things harder for the trio) and yet, they are incredibly loved. Who they were in canon - blood supremacist terrorists - has been watered down, pushed aside and they have been given characterisations that victimize them and make them more sympathetic towards the audience. Yet, female characters like Marlene and Dorcas, who we know were members of the Order of the Phoenix and actively fighting against Voldemort, are nowhere near as developed as them, even though they have such wonderful potential and are as blank of sheets as the boys are. Same with Pandora, who is the mother of a beloved character in the main series. The fandom had five characters here to flesh out and develop, yet only the male characters were given that treatment. It was a choice. 

One other thing that has bothered me for a long time is how often, the female characters are treated as accessories to further the men’s storylines. They serve as therapists, token friends, a little object to create drama between the mlm ships. Take Pandora and Dorcas as an example. I am not going to lie, I avoid anything related to the Slytherin Skittles and despite my greatest efforts and the fact everything I have learned about them has been against my will, I know and understand the backstories that were created for Regulus, Evan and Barty. I know what their fanon motivations were. I know nothing about Dorcas and Pandora despite the fact I have tried my hardest to look into it because I actually have interest in those two. Because their storylines make no sense, their motivations aren’t explored, they are there to make the three male characters more sympathetic. How does Dorcas go from being a Slytherin student and friends with wannabe DEs and blood supremacists, which was never a dealbreaker for her because she loved them apparently, to being a member of the OoTP, so important that she’s killed by Voldemort in person? What makes you think that Dumbledore would even trust her to allow her in the Order? He wouldn’t. How does Pandora go from being a Rosier, a member of a very prejudiced pure-blood family with a DE father, twins with an aspiring DE and friends with two others (at the very least very prejudiced), and despite being portrayed as super passive and never standing up against them, she is not corrupted by their beliefs and seemingly goes on to raise one of the purest characters in the whole series. Because yes, Pandora raised Luna for nine years of her life, so the way Luna is is undoubtedly a lot to do with how Pandora was. It doesn’t make any sense. But it’s not supposed to make sense because they are there just to serve a purpose and not to be their own characters. 

I have also talked about Lily and how her character has been treated since Jegulus gained popularity. Lily, who was always the most prominent and developed female character in the Marauders fandom, has been sidelined and pushed to the background for the sake of another mlm ship with zero canon basis. James remained one of the most popular characters, a part of one of the more popular ships, still center stage while Lily was the one to be shoved aside in order to make this fandom even more male-centered than it already was.

And since then, her character has been treated horribly. Vilified, humiliated, turned into an incubator, had her son turned into a “jegulus baby” because this fandom hasn’t learned to create OCs when they want mlm ships to have kids rather than take the children from the women and remove them from the narrative (also side-eyeing Wolfstar shippers who do it with Teddy because where the FUCK do you think the name Teddy even came from?). I will leave some examples below:

The bottom line is the interest for female characters and any relationship involving them, whether it’s wlw and wlm, is much less compared to the interest the fandom has for the male characters mlm ships. And there is no explanation for this apart from misogyny. And like I said above, it may not be ill-intended or conscious but it doesn’t change what it is. Whenever I see defensiveness on this topic, whether here on Tumblr or on Twitter, I always check their pages and I find the same thing nearly every time. They will have a wlw ship on their bios that they never mention a single time in the midst of their 200 posts per week on their favourite mlm ship. They will scream to the skies they do not ship Jily because they headcanon Lily as a lesbian and it has nothing to do with their favourite mlm ship but the only lesbian Lily is mentioned on their pages is indeed in relation to their favourite mlm ship. 

Instead of attacking people, maybe it would be better to reflect a little on why you refuse to engage with content about the women and only seem to have any interest about the men. And if you find yourself not caring, at least acknowledge why you don’t care about your internalized misogyny rather than becoming defensive about it.

[vintage-bentley]

re: "lesbians would only like m/m if they're secretly bi fujoshis":

as well as ur points, male characters are also generally much better written and more multifaceted than female characters, who get sidelined to one-dimensional love interests/family members/misogynistic caricatures

Yup this is a huge issue as well. I think it’s a big part of why I love First Kill so much, because the lesbians are front and centre, and the rest of the women in the cast take the lead. The men are supporting roles. Juliette comes from a matriarchal family where her father is really just there to be her emotional support (and I love their relationship so much), and a love interest for Margot. Calliope’s dad shares the same purpose; to support his daughter and wife. Cal’s brothers don’t upstage her, and Theo even aids the plot development of Jules and Cal’s relationship.

Ben has the role of the fun wingman best friend, without being trapped in the stereotypical role of “gay best friend”. Partly because his best friend is also gay, and partly because he gets his own side plot that again, doesn’t upstage Cal and Jules.

Even Oliver, despite being the character type that OSA women always go nuts over and is the perfect character to steal the show, didn’t upstage the women. He provided conflict for Jules and Elinor.

It’s definitely not a perfect show, I’ve made a post before about how the matriarchal family thing could’ve been done much better. But as far as female characters go, it’s very good and once again I will highly recommend it. Even just for Cal’s monologue about treatment of teenage girls, I believe in the first episode?

My beloved First Kill aside, if you’re in fandom for the experience of analysing characters and stories, many female characters just don’t have that depth to them. Thankfully I’ve seen some good analyses of Mary from OFMD, who I think does have depth and I absolutely love her. I miss her.

Often it’s just harder to become invested in female characters than male characters. And I really hope that changes, I think it’s already getting a bit better.

Side note, it’s very common for gay men to be interested in female celebrities and sometimes characters. Nobody questions their sexuality. Yet when lesbians are fans of male celebrities or characters, our sexuality comes into question. It’s a very weird double standard.

[volucerrubidus]

[ Gonna get serious here for a minute, folks! It's April, and while my muse for Tim has been low, it's still important to me that I not only participate in SAAM in my own personal life, but that I also address it at least somewhat through my art, including my writing here. I'll be doing that with my original works, of course, but since rp is a piece of my creative work that I consider important to me, I don't want to shy away from it here, either. Throughout this month, I will be participating in the conversation surrounding SA topics, as I find that, while I'm sure that it is well-meaning, there's almost no conversation about them in the comic fandom space, despite the fact that it is a very common issue to see in DC Comics (for better or worse. often worse). This is, in my opinion, in part due to a lack of awareness or good-faith education about these things, as it can be a sensitive topic, and I absolutely understand not breaching the subject out of concern of messing up or making it worse. I'm not here to shame anyone for messing up, getting things wrong, or not having anything to say on this topic.

What I am here to do, is bring the conversation to this blog. I will be discussing survivor support, the emotional trauma of being a survivor and having experiences of SA, and other topics that relate to this throughout the month.

Now, since this is a sensitive topic, I want to make a few things clear:

On my blog, I do not erase Tim's experiences with SA. That said, since DC often used female characters who are heroes (Rose and Greta, as examples), I also refuse to add to demonizing these women, because they do not deserve that treatment. So, whenever Tim mentions these experiences, they will be characters who were part of a separate universe from the ones that we all play in. Meaning that anyone who plays one of the characters who has done some type of unconsensual contact with Tim-- their muses will not be the ones who did the act, nor will the muns be expected to ever even touch on the subject with me. Consent is important, and that extends to things like what plots two people write together. I will never force a mun to engage in this conversation with me. It is your right to join in with me in talking about these things, and it is your right to stay out of it, as well. This is also explained in my rules.

I will be leaving anon on in my inbox for now. If there is any hate given to me or Tim because of this, anon will be switched off immediately. This is a one-strike system.

That said, if you have well-meaning questions, concerns, or comments, I will treat your message or ask in extremely good faith, and I will not get upset with you, so long as it's clear that you're approaching with respect.

I will not be disclosing any further details of my own experiences, but that said: I am myself an SA survivor. This is where I am coming from with these topics. I want that to be clear for two reasons: 1. I am well-versed in discussions about this, and 2. I will be drawing partially from my own experiences in this. This is to ensure both that the topics are handled with nuance, and that the topics are handled with care.

I will be tagging these things. Every post that I make that even so much as tangentially refers to SAAM or SA topics will be tagged six ways to sunday. Please block the tags if this is a triggering topic for you, and please take care of yourself throughout this month. I more than understand not being comfortable with these topics, and I wish you the best. The tags I'll be using are: # tw: sa ; # // sa ; # sa ; # saam ; tw: sa mention ; // sa mention ; sa mention Any one of those tags should help you filter, but feel free to block them all, just in case.

Participation with me is encouraged! Seriously, I mean this. I mean it when I say that I'm not going to get upset with you over mistakes, and if you approach with respect and understanding, then you may not even make mistakes at all. The point of this is not just for me to yell into the void about this stuff as some sort of art therapy; it's to begin a discussion and better our understanding as a fandom space of these kinds of topics. I can't promise that it'll be sunshine and rainbows, but I can promise that we'll create incredibly beautiful things together. It'll be okay. Come interact with me. I am here for you. <3

I'll be posting more tomorrow about what sorts of things to expect to see out of this, but for now, I just wanted to write a (belated) introduction post to what I'm going to be doing this month, and how I'm going to be handling SAAM. I really hope you'll consider writing with me about these topics, showing support, or otherwise engaging with me in this conversation.

Thank you for reading, and I hope you take care. Do something kind for yourself today <3 ]

[jackoshadows]

I think even if by any chance Arya forgives Sansa they would never be besties, they are just way too different. And especially now they had such different life experiences, the only thing they have in common is seeing their father die. It's really forced whenever people say they'll be besties.

Agree. I don't see them being besties. They are too different for that.

Which is why I really hope that Arya and Daenerys meet and GRRM is able to give us that one good female relationship between main characters. Dany and Missandei is great, however Missandei is a tertiary character. Meanwhile we have Jon/Sam and Jon/Robb and Bran/Robb and Tyrion/Jon and all these great male friendships and brotherhood between main male characters.

GRRM has the chance to do that with Arya and Daenerys and I hope he does. They are even in the same continent right now! They share the same philosophy, sense of right and wrong, empathy for the smallfolk, desire for justice.

Sansa is such a thinly written character, especially in the early books that I am not even looking forward to the resolution of the Sansa-Arya relationship. For example, GRRM mentioned that Sansa becomes more sympathetic once she accepted responsibility for her role in Ned's death

Sansa was the least sympathetic of the Starks in the first book; she has become more sympathetic, partly because she comes to accept responsibility for her part in her father's death. - GRRM (Amazon UK interview)

Where exactly in the text did Sansa accept responsibility or feel sorry for what she did? That's one of the issues I have with the character - the lack of instrospection. At no point does she feel any remorse or guilt for her actions. Even Arya feels guilt for Mycah - despite not being in the wrong for what she did. Jon feels guilt and apologizes all the time. He has some savage dark dreams because of what he did to Gilly. Daenerys feels guilt for leaving Astapor to the mercy of barbarians - that's why she stays on in Meereen. Characters feel guilt and remorse for their actions and try to do things differently the second time around - that's what makes them human.

We just don't see this with Sansa. She rightly blames the Lannisters and thinks she was stupid to trust them - which, yes she was an idiot considering how cartoonishly evil Joffrey was in AGoT. However, she still blames Arya for what happened to Lady, still does not think of how she was wrong to tattle all of Ned's plans to Cersei and give away the whereabouts of the ship that was supposed to take her, Arya and Jeyne away to the North. Still does not feel any kind of way about how she treated her little sister and kept siding with Joffrey against her.

This is also why it's easy for fandom to point fingers at characters like Dany, Jon and Arya etc. because they, rightly or wrongly, exhibit guilt and remorse. Instead of finding it admirable that these characters feel guilt and apologize and learn from their mistakes and make it right, fandom crucifies these characters for their mistakes.

Jon gets rightly called out as a bully because he acknowledges this and apologizes. Arya feels guilt for Mycah and certain fans use this to blame her for what happened. Dany is critiqued as a bad/evil ruler because she feels guilt for Astapor. Introspection is a good thing for any ruler/leader! It's in fact a necessary trait.

Sansa however feels no guilt or remorse or never thinks of apologizing for mocking and bullying and just her general treatment of Arya - and we get the 'just siblings being typical siblings' discourse every other day. The author comes right out and says that Sansa played a part in what happened to Ned and she accepts responsibilty for this, and they still deny it. Sansa is just not a well written character IMO for all the love her fans have for her.

Maybe the Arya-Sansa reunion is when GRRM writes in Sansa finally acknowledging how much of a toxic elder sister she was to Arya and begins to repair that relationship by genuinely apologizing.

[joculatrixster]

same anon. my guess is that it has something to do with ships and the treatment of male/masc-presenting cookies and female/fem-presenting cookies. i have more but i couldn't think of anything else atm lol

DING DING DING we have a winner :D

ppl in this fandom hate lesbains so much its not even funny! why is espressoline obvs canon to everyone but seamoon(which is so heavy-handed that at this point if devs made a seamoon sex tape I doubt ppl would admit after watching they r lesbians) has such a vocal antifanbase?? the idea that u cant ship that ONE fem w/ men is apparently against their constitutional rights or something idek yall just need all women to love a man and hate wlw lesbian representation ig. ofc ships like espressolien have anti-fans but its not as near controversial and its the most POPULAR CR SHIP???

actually, name a fandom that ain't mostly fem characters that the most popular ship is wlw or nblw cause that's fucking rare everyone loves their gay men but hate the gay women. god forbid a woman is bi/pan because ppl will either declare shes a lesbian(ignoring her attraction to men which is fucked) or hate her to high heavens and cr is NOT exempt from this but I'm glad its not as common to just straight hate women openly here so good job fandom u did SOMETHING right

ALSO barely anyone talks about characters like rye/rose/skating queen outside of shipping. the most popular characters and the ones devsisters seem to like the best r masc! thousands of espresso, almond, rougefort(ik they r nonbinary but they r MASC nb most ppl in this fandom treat them like a gay man dont @ me) fan pages yet the fems r left dry. Actually, the most popular fems r cutesy children or characters like Latte who ppl only treat as A SEX OBJECT and barely explore her past shipping or uwu creampuff mommy or espressos sister!!!! if the character is fem and popular u best believe ppl find their schtick hot or they just got an update like cocoa dw cocoa once ur 10 minutes of fam is up ppl will forget about u like they did before this. it happened w/ moon rabbit it'll happen with her too actually I kinda hope it does cause yall only like cocoa when shes mint's little wifey otherwise she has nothing in yalls eyes. ofc that's a sweeping statement but the wider fandom treats her like this because DEVS treat her like this. shes nothing w/out mint and THAT'S FUCKED UP. why is this woman defined by her heavily implied partner. why cant she have a story outside of mint loves her. good for her now give me something more than that, give her friends and adventures that has nothing to do w/ him. he has it why not her?? tbh I haven't watched the update vids so hey maybe I'm wrong and he's barely in this story but I have no hope in devsisters

don't get me started on the butch/stud to nb, trans women or trans MAN(wtf?!?!!?!?) pipeline this fandom has!!! god forbid a she/her wear a suit must not be a cis woman cause why would a cis woman ever want to explore their gender. yall rlly showing how u think trans men r just women in suits with that one. the trans women one is actually better but not all trans women will be masculine and if u only hc the masculine/gnc cookies like aloe or sour belt r trans women ur fucked up. trans women can be feminine cookies like cheesecake or rose too but why r those hcs never as popular??? rhetorical question its because the wider fandom has got issues seeing trans women as regular women well sucks to suck because trans woemn r just women they come in all shapes and sizes like all women do and they r not all just masculine gnc ppl like yall seem to want them to be

[autisticcassandracain]

The real problem with "later bats" (i.e., anyone added after about 1990) is that fandom acts like they're just ancillary characters when most of them have their own history both as independent characters and interacting with more established characters like Bruce, Dick, Babs, and Tim. But you won't see much of this on Tumblr.

Respectfully, I disagree. I get where you're coming from, but I think you got the cause wrong. The issue is not that fandom won't accept 'later bats' into the main batfam circle; Tim only barely appeared before 1990, which is why I'm guessing you chose that cut-off point, but both Damian and Jason as Red Hood appeared much later and are widely accepted to be 'inner batfam' members (even though Red Hood Jason wasn't one prior to the N52). Yes, Jason was technically introduced earlier, but if he'd remained dead, he absolutely would not have the popularity he does now; he is specifically popular as Red Hood, which was a relatively late introduction. Moreover, the idea that fandom considers anyone added post roughly 1990 to be a 'later bat' and thus 'bat adjacent' doesn't make sense when you consider most fans do not focus their reading on the pre-1990 comic era, and are too young to have grown up in it. Like, pre-1990 there wasn't even really a concept of the 'batfam'. That came later.

Point being, batfans draw from a canon where those shoved aside bat characters (Cass, Steph, Duke, even Barbara) were present in a good amount of bat comics. Even if they're fandom only, the information they're getting is from people who have read those comics.

The reason they're shoved aside isn't because they're later additions. It's because they're women and characters of colour that aren't whitewashed in canon/are visibly non-white (and thus it's impossible to forget or ignore that they're characters of colour).

It's just fandom racism and misogyny at work again, and the reason it predominantly happens to 'later bats' is because DC's efforts to introduce more women and characters of colour is relatively recent. That's it.

EDIT: for the record I do agree with the unfairness of those bats being shoved aside and treated as ancillary characters when they're just as (if not more) developed as the fandom faves! But I don't think their point of introduction is the reason why. People are perfectly ready to read up on new comics of their white male faves but start crying that the comics are 'too new' when asked why they don't care for the female characters/characters of colour (for example: fans being more than willing to read Red Hood and the Outlaws and make fancontent based off of it, but hem and haw about using the preboot continuity and not liking the N52 when asked about Duke).

I also don't necessarily think inclusion in the main batfam necessarily solves the problem of being shoved aside. The increased inclusion of Cass in batfam fics in response to critiques of fandom racism has not meant better or less racist fandom characterization for her, or more actual focus on her character in fancontent. Stephanie being included as the waffle girl in fic does not mean her character wasn't shoved aside. Duke being in the batfam in your fanart only to stand aside and react outrageously to common batfam things does not make his fandom treatment better. Barbara being included as Dick's love interest does not mean her character is being explored and given the same attention as his.

Idk if I'm explaining it well but it's similar to the fandom phenomena of ignoring f/f ships. When people complain about a lack of f/f ships, they're often pointed to a popular f/f ship, which often has a good number of fics on AO3. The problem is that when you look closer, you realize that this ship is nearly always featured in a secondary capacity. Why?

Because fans are uninterested in actually exploring the female characters, but have also heard about the complaints of misogyny when people kill off, bash, or just ignore these female characters. So they do something that makes it LOOK like they respect them, while not fundamentally changing their fandom behaviour: they shove them together, stick them in the fic, and ignore the hell out of them.

Simply including characters isn't enough. You need to actually give a shit about them. Which is why fandom needs to learn to stop hiding behind thin excuses for WHY they conveniently don't care about the vast majority of women and characters of colour, and start actually taking a hard, critical look at what characters they like, are willing to make and consume content for, and are interested in exploring and centering in their fandom experience.

Which I'm sure you agree with, anon, I'm just physically incapable of not being pedantic.

[fishklok]

i genuinely dislike abigail and see her “relationship” with nathan as a manipulative ploy for her to get treated better than the klokateers

controversial fandom opinion asks

ok. so.

people are allowed to like or dislike a character for whatever reason. i'm not one of those people who thinks that one needs to provide a solid argument to "justify" their feelings towards a character. sometimes there's just a vibe -- and that's okay.

that being said, my issue with your opinion isn't the conclusion. to lay my biases out on the table: i'm an abigail fan, but like i said people can like or dislike a character for whatever reason. rather, my issue lies in the argument you've constructed to support said conclusion -- because they're easily disproved by the show itself.

abigail was brought in by the label to work with the band. in that sense, she has more in common with knubbler (who was hired under the same circumstances). she's not a klokateer.

"I left for my own reasons. The job was near completion, and the circumstances stopped being professional. I wish Dethklok every success in the future. Thank you." -- Abigail in Breakup Klok

this does not read like someone who was manipulating nathan in order to be given better treatment as one of dethklok's employees. because 1). she's not one of dethklok's employees (not in the way the klokateers are), and 2). if that really was her motivation, why would she leave?

with this next point, i will fully admit that this is me reading into the events of the show, but it truly does seem like if the altercation with the revengencers never took place, abigail would have continued to work for crystal mountain records while not keeping contact with dethklok. i say this because 1). she ignores nathan's attempts to get into contact with her (this isn't me justifying ghosting, but that's not the issue here) 2). her final point of communication with dethklok is her finalizing her producer credits with charles and 3). the next time we see her and dethklok together is at cornickelson's funeral, which is a label event -- not a dethklok one.

circling back to the argument at hand, i also feel the need to point out that abigail and nathan were never in a relationship during the show, and there was no evidence to state that them being in one would have resulted in her being treated better than a klokateer (which, again, she was already being treated better than the klokateers on the grounds that she isn't one). if that was her motivation, there would be easier ways to achieve that. we've seen characters try to seduce/manipulate nathan (trindle mainly comes to mind, but you could maybe count rebecca or even lavona), and abigail doesn't have much in common with any of them.

again, i must restate that it's okay if you don't like abigail. you don't even need a reason. abigail does have a lot of the same writing issues that a large portion of the female cast are "blessed" with. she doesn't need the added baggage of also being "a manipulative schemer sleeping her way to the top", which is how your anon comes off.

but that's just my opinion.

[crazywolf828]

Yeah people in fandom always act wierd when it comes to characters with anger issues. Often they're demonized for it (or in some cases, extremely woobiefied) and it sucks as someone with anger issues seeing the way people treat fictional characters with it like this, that I can only imagine how they treat real people with it.

It's a sexism thing for sure and it's interesting because it's so different in the west and east. Like I was a major weeb most of my middle/high school life and, I'm not proud of it, but my younger times my friends and I were into bl. I know I know. Anyway, Anime like KNB or Blue Exorcist have main characters with some real fuckin issues, but they're never chastised (it's pretty much the same over here). But then you have shows like Toradora(my beloved) and any other tsun show where, yeah maybe the female lead gets called a bitch from a few people but most are overwhelmingly supportive of Taiga kicking the shit out of Ryuuji. Mood. It's also a lot more common to see female characters be angry (in an physical way) in anime than cartoons.

Now cut back over to the west and you've got Avatar, both series show it too. When Katara would get mad the fandom what get pissed, but precious boi Zuko(who is nothing but anger issues) has truama so it's okay. I think a lot of us were too young to really understand it at the time though. And I mean, I really don't have to say a thing for Korra do I? She gets the Yang treatment but worse because she's the main character. And even more recent shows like She-ra, Catra was hated for a while by certain fans because she did show aggressive anger(which did later turn abusive) even Adora got the treatment to a more mild extent (people were more just unhappy she had muscles).

Anyway I just woke up and that's all I got but yeah, a lot of it is steeped in western sexism. Which isn't a huge surprise to be honest but y'know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[janiedean]

Hope this is okay to ask but I was wondering what your thoughts are on the way Tyrion is treated by some of the fandom, especially Cersei stans? I feel he is held to a different standard to other male characters and as someone with an invisible disibility irl it makes me a bit uncomfortable. I’ve seen many “Lannister stans” who either hate him or want to ignore he exists.

sure it’s okay to ask don’t worry ;)

that said: when it comes to tyrion’s fandom treatment especially on tumblr there’s like a whole bunch of like... WE’RE ABLEIST BUT MASKING IT BEHIND FAKE WOKE ARGUMENTS crap going on because not counting the fact that show!tyrion has been what he was since S5 bc dnd can’t obviously write him and stopped giving peter decent material after then and it shows, but like... show!tyrion being nowhere near as complex as the book version is a problem that 99% of the show characters had so I don’t think it’s like a valid argument:

the premise is that tyrion is outside like TUMBLR and the likes circles a clear fan favorite when it comes to the general audience if not the fan favorite - like there’s more tyrion merch than idk jon snow merch and maybe maybe he was 50/50 with dany but like... I think that if we did a general poll tyrion would come out as the most liked character, which... I mean fair tyrion is an a+ character and he’s extremely relatable on a whole shitload of levels and let me tell you if a disabled character is for once the main fan favorite I won’t complain:

problem is beyond the fact that he’s disabled he’s... about everything tumblr hates in the sense that a) man, b) (presumably) straight man who has a lot of sex to deal with his issues, c) his issues are not exactly pleasant to deal with, d) not Standard Attractive, e) basically his one trump card is outsmarting people so it’s really easy to attach the whole AH MANIPULATING SCHEMING ASSHOLE argument to him, f) an abuse victim from at least his father and cersei but we all know men can’t be abused on this website *rolleyes* plus he hates the shit out of cers/ei which like.. is apparently the cardinal sin and the key to being labeled a misogynist always, which automatically means that when it comes to tumblr asoiaf fandom nine times on ten people will ignore the fact that his disability is a reason people discriminate him and that the treatment he received because of it gave him TRAUMA and start going like AH BUT HE’S A MAN AH BUT HE’S RICH which... doesn’t mean he can’t be traumatized even if he has male and money privilege;

for what it’s worth anyway bc as stated okay being a lannister did mean that he had a better upbringing/situation economically than a commoner with dwarfism but that doesn’t make his abuse any less damaging, but people on here just... don’t seem to get it;

but yeah like the point is that male chars on tumblr are already held at different standards than female ones (again theon gets more shit than cersei ever had for doing a lot less horrid stuff) but tyrion as... the mega fan favorite especially in within the male fanbase (reddit/w-org and the likes) is held to an extra standard in the sense that if the dudebro faction likes him then he’s BAD NEWS, which means that the fact that he’s disabled and that it affects his life is thoroughly ignored because they have to cry about how he has male privilege over c. and so she can’t abuse him (which... lmao the day I read that shit in S2 I was so out, but whatever);

anyway thing is: ‘lannister stans’ in my experience is a thing that like... is weird in this fandom because actually I never met a supposed lannister stan who likes all of them or who doesn’t ignore some exist, like.. usually most lannister stans who pretend tyrion doesn’t exist are either c. stans or tywin stans or both and don’t get me started on how this fandom has a weirdass tywin worship thing going on for which they think tyrion killing him is an unforgivable crime when it was basically what that asshole deserved and the narrative is having tyrion go in the downward spiral for shae not for tywin. c. stans usually say they also stan jaime but like... they stan whichever version of jaime they think exist that is compatible for a book ending that has the murder suicide thing happening that doesn’t exist in the books and they ignore tyrion exists same as their fave, but then again here we fall back in the pit where everything c. specifically does is seen as either fight against the patriarchy or feminist rebellion or trauma justification on account of c. being a woman and if a man does it it’s horrid or if she does it to a man then it doesn’t matter, so like... it’s a lost cause;

anyway like if someone say they’re a lannister stan and ignore tyrion when whether they like it or not tyrion is the only lannister in the main five povs (which i’d like to remind everyone are jon dany tyrion arya and bran regardless of whoever is everyone’s fave) and the one that has most narrative weight then like... just say you like c. or tywin and go;

tldr: while I think that the show did tyrion a lot of dirt in order to make him more... idk cleaned up when the book character is good as it is, tumblr fandom is swimming deep in ableism and denying that men can be abused and affected by that when it comes to tyrion’s treatment, never mind in the neverending absolutely shallow argument that’s everywhere in asoiaf fandom which is that no one outside specific group of people has understood that one of the key messages of these books is ‘how you look outside doesn’t mean shit about your personality and people who aren’t standard attractive are people with needs and personality who also deserve love and have a lot to give and will meet someone who’ll give it to them’, because the race is basically shipping beautiful ppl together even if it makes sense and negating at all turns that brienne/arya/tyrion/sandor/anyone else who’s not standard attractive are like... viable romantic partners on an even level with whoever so there’s that too, but like I think that on tumblr it shows that ppl are extremely hypocritical when it comes to tyrion and that it shows that their wokeness stops at the surface bc if you read those books and miss The Fucking Point when it comes to tyrion’s disability... text comprehension where have you gone ;)

also when it comes from c. stans** I just sigh and roll my eyes but then again c. stans generally think c. is the only person in these books with justified issues and trauma reaction and downplay not only how she abuses others but also the effects on the ppl she abuses whether they’re men or women so like... they don’t even admit how she is with jaime do we think they’d admit it for tyrion? doubt that.

**before everyone else jumps on me: with c. stans I mean the vocal side of c. standom where almost everyone is like that and from whom I never saw once an acknowledgment that she actually did abuse him (or anyone kllkjkgdj), not whichever c. stan around who likes her because she’s terrible/recognizes that she’s bad etc, I mean no ill will, if you didn’t feel called out reading it it wasn’t about you, peace and love.

[representativecharacters]

Characters: Castiel, Dean Winchester

From: Supernatural

Representation: mlm (*see “issues” section), abuse survivor (Dean) 

Their Importance: Dean and Cas are two characters that many in fandom viewed as LGBTQIA+, with the common belief being that Dean Winchester is bisexual. 

There’s a lot about Supernatural and Destiel, and Dean in general, which I’ll go over in the “issues” section, but I think many people in fandom didn’t expect for the show to actually go anywhere with them - until 15x18, when Cas confesses his love to Dean. It’s riddled with issues, yes, but just speaking as a bi girl who’s been watching Supernatural for a decade now, watching Cas confess his love for Dean was just so incredibly validating. It validated that I - and other fans - weren’t delusional when looking for representation from Cas (and Dean). Cas is a wonderful character and gave a new life to the show, and has been a fixture of the show for 10 years. While like with every character he has his ups and downs, he is a kind, loving character, and the only main character who actually survives the show. Despite the issues on the show, knowing that Cas is canonically LGBT+ is something that’s comforting and validating to me, and continues to be so even as Supernatural kind of trainwrecks around everything else. 

For myself, watching the show, I saw a lot of myself and my journey in Dean. Watching him grow and develop as a character, and try to experience happiness and find comfort in his found family was wonderful for me to see. I started this show when I was a young closeted kid, and I clung to Dean in a way that I didn’t fully understand until years later. I didn’t actually expect him to be explicitly mlm in the show, and for the most part, that didn’t happen - until the Spanish dub. There, we see the romantic reciprocation to Cas, and that’s something that is real and cannot be taken away. In fact, although it was said that it was a “rogue” translator, the episode will not be redubbed, so it is canon in a version of the show. Despite the fact that he didn’t get canonized in a way I expected or would have ever hoped, it still does give me some joy to know that he is canonically LGBT+ (and in my opinion, bi, although there is no actual label given to Dean). Even if it’s not in the version of the show I watched, I can go back and watch the Spanish dub of the episode and see that representation happen onscreen, and that means something to me. 

Issues: The issues list for this show is a mile long, so I’ve split it up into sections and put most of it under a read more:

Dean + Canon Rep: Trying to wade through if Dean is actually canonically LGBTQ+ was....a struggle, to say the least, and I almost didn’t put him into this submission. If you watch the show in English, Dean never once actually reciprocates feelings for Cas, states that he’s into men, or is even confirmed to be in a relationship with other men. Although for many, it is implied, the average audience member may not see Dean as canonically LGBTQ+. However, in the Spanish dub of the show, when Castiel confesses his love to Dean (which is an explicit romantic “I love you”), Dean says “y yo a ti”, which is a reciprocation of Cas’s romantic confession. This post is very long as it is, so I want to link to @destielintheimpala’s timeline of events that occurred for Supernatural and I think it best lays out all the issues about 15x18-20, why it’s been so difficult trying to figure out Dean’s sexuality in canon, why fandom is upset, and can clear up any misinformation. This situation also goes into queerbaiting quite a bit (something Supernatural is infamously known for), which you can read in this article from @thecoolestfreakyouknow. 

Reading Dean as a queer character as well - having a character who is queer (or queercoded) and an abuse survivor and then immediately killing him off is also a huge problem. As mentioned in the link above, Jensen Ackles himself felt uneasy about Dean’s ending, and many Dean fans felt the same way. To have a character suffer through abuse and traumas for 15 seasons, imply or straight out have him be LGBT+ (depending on the canon), and then immediately killing him off in the finale is needless to say, an odd choice. 

Also, with Dean being an abuse survivor - his father, John Winchester, is commonly shown to be neglectful throughout the show, and Dean has to raise his younger brother Sam by himself most times. He expresses trauma from the experiences he’s had growing up with their father and being forced to hunt at a young age. However, the show weirdly seems to flip flop on their portrayal of John, despite also specifically stating that what he put his children through was child abuse. They have Sam telling John that he did the best he could, they have characters excusing away John’s actions, etc. - it was like the writers themselves couldn’t figure out if they wanted John to have been an abusive parent or not. The show ends with John in Heaven with Mary - thus absolving John of his actions and putting him in the same Heaven with the children he abused. 

Castiel: Cas confesses his love for Dean in 15x18, but gets dragged away to a void called “The Empty” immediately afterwards, where he’s meant to be suffering for all of eternity. Cas does get out of The Empty, and even helps to rebuild Heaven - he’s actually one of the few characters to survive the finale - but he never appears onscreen again after 15x18, so fans’ last image of him is getting dragged away to The Empty. Dean never has a follow-up conversation, and there was only one line referencing Cas’s fate, so many fans believed he was still in The Empty suffering.

As the timeline linked above shows, the situation around Destiel is an odd one - the Spanish dub, cast’s overall silence, the lack of Misha Collins in the finale all led fans to believe that something was switched around last minute in terms of Dean’s sexuality and Destiel as a general ship. Obviously, this is speculation unless someone from the show explicitly comes out and says that fans are correct, but it’s included in the issues section because - regardless of it it turns out to be true or not - it’s such a big part of the issues currently surrounding Supernatural and canon representation. In any case, however, Castiel’s confession in 15x18 gave fans hope where they may not have had hope before, and then it was unceremoniously dropped with no real follow up - from a writing standpoint, it isn’t good writing to confirm a major character as queer via a love confession and then never go back to that plot point. While I’m happy that Cas is canonically queer and I’m not trying to say that I would rather not have more representation, I do look back on the show and wonder, with the story that made it to screen, what the actual point of writing that in was. 

As mentioned before, Castiel was a main character on the show for 10 years - while I’m glad that his character survives the series, to not have him show up in the final two episodes (particularly the finale, and especially after canonically making him LGBTQ+) felt like a slap in the face to both the character and the audience who loved him. 

Miscellaneous treatment of characters: In general, Supernatural has many problems in its treatment of female, characters of color, and LGBTQ+ characters. Alongside being incredibly underrepresented in the show, if they do show up, they are commonly tortured, treated poorly, and/or killed off (if not all of the above). Even thinking about their recurring characters who are also representative - Kevin, their only recurring Asian character, is killed off and appears as a ghost multiple times, Charlie, who is a lesbian, gets killed off and replaced in the show with an Alternate Universe version of herself, Eileen, a Deaf woman, gets killed off and then is brought back and is implied to survive the show, but like Cas, never actually shows up in the final two episodes even though she’s Sam’s girlfriend. I can think of very few minority characters in the show in general, much less those who got any type of happy ending. 

[thesharondefenseleague]

mlm imo werent sexualized to the degree that wlw were in most canon media mostly because of the male gaze. Gay and Lesbian relationships or moments got very limited representation. One was probably more sympathetic but also heart breaking like say brokeback mountain. One was explicit but depicted as grotesque or twisted or perverted or immoral in some way. And the last version was the titillating version. In western media because of the assumed straight male gaze lesbians making out to titlate guys was a common thing like say in Jennifer's body. The equivalent of that with guys wasnt really that common not in western media. Not that wlw couldn't like that content but it was made to be fanservice for men .

So thats what I kind of mean by wlw were sexualized at least in western media. This equivalent with mlm in fandom never really existed they never made out for girls to find hot in the same way. It was never marketed like oh look hot guys making out. Fandom did that but not canon.

As for comic book men being sexualized kind of. There is definitely the unrealistic beauty standards but theres that debate of was it for the purpose of titillating women? Or a result of toxic masculinity putting this unattainable unsustainable goal for men. Maybe both? But both in comics and the movies they are based on the posing and clothing and moments with women get made to clearly sexualize them . It especially ovbious with comics with them twisting their bodies so their boobs and butts are jutting out. Or like movie moments like Bruce landing in Natasha's clevage. Or angles where you are staring down a female character's shirt or she has a boob window for some contrived reason. Or just reasons to give full page spreads of them in skimpy clothing.

Its rare men get depicted like this or posed like this. And when they do it often stands out because its not the norm. It's something unique. Not true with men. Even in form fitting spandex they are often posed and framed to make to make them look powerful or intelligent or to reveal things about their character.

Again not that men never get sexualized or that fanservice is always bad. Or that its not a concern that men are having these terrible body image issues. But just that for women for the sexualization its so pervasive and constant was my point.

Its just as bad in wlw in canon as it is for women in relationships with men in canon when it comes to that sexualization but i hear so much more about the problems about the wlw ship than the mlw ship. Like to use DC as a example i hear so much about how people sexualized or mishandle harleyivy but compared to that i hear very little about batcat in comparison even though Catwoman is often just as sexualized in that ship.

As for misogyny in shipping wars yes it definetly exists and is a problem as is racism and homophobia. But my issue is mostly that the problem isnt because the main popular ships are mlm. But so often I see the argument framed that way.

Like shipping wars existed between m/w ships and still do today. And they are still often pretty misogynistic towards the woman in the other ship. I don't even have to look at other fandoms I remember Steggy vs Starton getting real ugly.

Mysogny in fandom doesn't uniquely pop up when mlm are the more popular ship. Its often just as bad in fandoms where m/w is the popular ship. But people just bring it up alot more they make it bout valuing the men over the women .

Well i mean that goes both ways you could say its homophobic for valuing the straight ship as better than the gay one or liking it more. But either way its stupid they dont care bout sexism or homophobia only that their ship is more popular.

Thats the sentiment of all ship wars the gender dynamics and racial make up change nothing. Nothing except the bullshit you use for the ship war.

The problem is that people are being homophobic and mysogynistic and racist not just in regards to fictional characters but towards real people just to win a ship war. It comes out so easily. Thats the problem imo.

Mysogny for example i think isnt discussed as much when its a m/w vs m/w ship war or drama because as both ships have women it can't be used to slander the other ship. But when its drama between fans of a m/m and m/w it comes out alot again not because anyone really cares but because now because one ship lacks a woman it can be used as fodder for what people actually care about. Tearing down the other ship.

Again not that mlm fandom doesnt have mysogny. They definetly do. But they aren't mysogynistic because they ship two guys together. Thats not proof they hate women. Having a ship with women isnt proof that you aren't sexist towards women. There might be homophobia in fandoms of mlm ships and mysogny in fandoms of m/w ships.

But in the drama between a m/w and m/m ships that doesn't get brought up because no one cares if that problem can't be used to show that someone only doesn't ship your ship if they are bigoted against it. Who cares about misogyny if your ship is two guys? Who cares about homophobia if your ship is straight?

No one because they cared about the popularity of their ship not the actual issues.

Gonna under under the cut for length again.

This is a lot to read so I'm gonna respond paragraph by paragraph and hope for the best in terms of comprehension.

When it comes to media made about the LGBTQ+ community, you have to keep in mind when it was made, who made it, and who was it made for. And that it's been shown that straight women have had the same reactions to mlm content as straight men to wlw content. QaF was dumbfounded to find that the majority of their audience was straight women when the show's sex scenes were 95% between two or more men and yet that's what they ran with because hey, it got the views. The views of mlm and wlw content in the mainstream media before then was minimized, despite how fucked a lot of the other content could be. If by "most canon media" being directed at the male gaze being summer blockbusters, and more specifically comic book movies, then sure. If we step out of that box, then not really. The film examples you chose are interesting because BB is portrayed exactly how the author of the original short story wrote it which was meant to be heartbreaking since it was a tragic dramatic piece while JB has a woman who wrote and another woman who directed it while purposefully trying to allow to actress to have a level of sexuality without exploiting her as past directors have (also neither of the main characters are lesbians - one is bi, the other I think is straight but maybe questioning?).

The sexualization of wlw in modern western media is definitely a thing. I mean, the first Iron Man film has stewardesses on the private jet pole dancing if I remember correctly. It took until 2016 to stop sexualizing Scarlett in every movie: the changing scene in IM2, the lowered zipper in A1, the ass shot in Cap 2, the boob faceplant in AoU (in your third paragraph, but mentioning it here anyway). It's a joke that you know when a man directs a wlw indie film during the sex scenes. But the mlm equivalent did exist alongside it, and it's what kicked off the century.

Comics and their movies were always for men. The male bodies are male wish fulfilment for their physical appearance. The women are male wish fulfilment for their dream girls. Funnily enough, one of the least sexualized women in comics I've ever read is Sharon. She's rarely, if ever, drawn to be sexualized for the audience. I'm not even sure she's even been in those swimsuit issues Marvel did years ago. And it shows heavily that Marvel struggles to know how to appeal to women without being aggressively in your face about it. The best example of them appealing without pandering is WV, and the worst is the group shots the Russos did in IW and Endgame, especially the latter.

But the men get those poses in the movies too. Thor bathed shirtless for no reason in TDW. There's a scene in Endgame dedicated to talking about Steve's ass. Pratt in GotG. Rudd in Ant-Man. Most actors are expected to look good shirtless and put themselves through intense shit to look that way. So do the women, but they aren't doing it to have the glamor shots of their muscles. And the MCU is not the only film franchise like this. Most, if not all, franchises with majority or entirely male leads expects them all to look like bodybuilders. And I'm gonna take back that it's just for the male audience, because these bodies are meant to appeal to women who are intended to thirst for these actors too. They think these bodies is what will bring women to the theaters.

None of this will change, as you say, that women's sexualization is "constant and pervasive". The film industry is just a part of the larger whole of media. Television and advertising have a treatment of women that's beyond whatever you or I say because there are decades worth of shit to go through that would take dozens of essays worth of writing to fully divulge beyond "please stop it's gross".

Now DC is a whole other ballgame. They're pretty infamous for their artists' sexualization of heroines and villainesses. Harley, Ivy, and Selina are definitely pretty bad, but when I remember what I've seen drawn of Kara, Kori, or sometimes Barbara... But outside of one artist, I think Harley and Ivy as a couple have been drawn tamely. Can't say the same for Selina, because they just can't not draw every part of her body even when she's fully clothed.

I think it's hard not to talk about fandom misogyny outside of m/m ships because of how often popular m/m shippers have rooted their shipping into misogyny. And even with m/f ship wars, a lot of the time the "faulted" character is always the woman when majority of the time it's the man who sucks. I don't get why everyone is fighting for who should kiss Steve because Steve sucks and they'd be better off without him. But because Steve is the object of affection for our fave, we have to fight off everyone else.

Don't look at other fandoms for m/f ship wars. We don't appreciate how tame we were, even at our worst. I'm serious, I've seen so much worse.

I think why the topic of misogyny comes up more with m/m ships is because they follow a similar principle of the male characters being more developed in canon and fanon so it's who people gravitate towards.

There is definitely layers of homophobia in fandom, but there's many versions of how we see it. Homophobes who won't ship anything that's not m/f. Homophobes who ship m/m but won't support IRL rights. People who love m/m but abhor f/f, and vice-versa. The shippers who use them for personal fodder. But the sexism is more prevalent than the homophobia. And the racism way more than both combined.

And it does cause a lot of ammo, and much of it severely unjustified, in ship wars. Literally the bullshit I've seen pulled out of thin air to accuse Sharon of not being worthy because someone said she's a racist for [they literally had no reason just called her one because we said Sam and Sharon are friends because they are] and other nonsense.

The real world repercussions of the homophobia, the sexism, and the racism in fandom... there's just so much. Like we are all still people, and yet we decide because we hide behind screens to be antagonistic, and use homophobic, sexist, and racist shit to attack each other over ships just because we want to paint the other person as crazy, I guess? If you can't see that there are no enemies in ship wars and that the other side is still people, maybe you need to sit out and log off. It's baffling how often it still happens to people. Then it's no longer about ships, it's about who is an asshole.

I will say that Steve and Peggy vs Steve and Sharon is probably the only m/f ship war I've seen where misogyny is talked about. Is, not was, because it still is. Both sides call the others misogynistic. I don't think either side is, but you can see in individuals. Those who tweeted at a certain actress that she was a slut for kissing her costar certainly are though.

You are right that shipping m/m isn't inherently sexist. But tearing down women in those ships to prop up m/m has made me stop shipping certain characters altogether. People, seriously, we don't have to justify why we like them! We can just like them! And other characters can still exist! It's never been that deep.

And you're right, the popularity of the ship helps people ignore any deeper issues within them and this is a power used to silence valid criticism if it pops up.

(I hope I answered everything well for you.)

~Mod R

[prince-of-elsinore]

29. What are your views about the racism, sexism and homophobia on supernatural?

Oo you gotta come in with the contentious question, huh, anon? 😂 Tbh this feels like a three-part question, because they're all separate issues. But in general, I take the show for what it is. I don't go in expecting it to be super woke (especially in early seasons--the culture has changed a lot since 2005, thank goodness). So I sort of turn off part of my brain to enjoy the show. There are aspects I get vaguely annoyed at, but when it comes to seeing the show as regressive or progressive, liberal or conservative, I actually don't think it fits neatly into either category. That said:

--racism: I think the show fails most on this front. There have been some great recurring characters of color (have I mentioned how much I love Rufus? And Kevin?) but they are astonishingly few and far between for 15 seasons. I don't get mad that the core characters (Sam, Dean, Crowley, Cass) are all white dudes considering it was accidental on the part of Crowley and Cass, who were supposed to be short-lived (though there's also something to be said about fandom attachment to white male characters they can slash and woobify. Excellent article: https://stitchmediamix.com/2020/03/28/migratory-slash-fandoms-focus/ ) But there were many missed opportunities to introduce/bring back characters of color. I wish they'd done more with Cassie, but I also sort of worry they would have messed up pretty badly. Also, considering all the various and sundry villains of the show, I'm not upset about getting complex, layered ones like Gordon (one of my fave antagonists) and Billie, but considering the overall shortage of characters of color, it does throw the balance off. The optics are not good. All in all, I don't think the show is overtly racist, but then, many things that are not overtly racist can still contribute to white supremacist culture. It could easily have done better in this regard.

--sexism: The way I feel about Sam, Dean, Crowley, and Cass all being guys is is similar to how I feel about them all being white. I like Jack, but there's a perfect example of a missed opportunity to add a core character who wasn't a white dude. That said, there are a good number of really great, dynamic recurring female characters. From my understanding, part of the reason some early ones (Bela, Jo) didn't stick around was actually because fandom hated them? Which is dumb. Idk. Anyway, I think the 'female characters always die' argument is sort of moot because everyone dies on supernatural. Jody and Donna are rare exceptions to that rule. Honestly one of the things that interests me about supernatural is how it comments on/plays with/challenges notions of masculinity, so if I wanted a show about women I would just go elsewhere. So, ditto to what I said above: I don't think the show is overtly sexist, but many things that are not overtly sexist can still contribute to patriarchal culture and misogyny (by not interrogating the dominant culture). I just think that overall, the show /mostly/ avoids truly harmful narratives and matches up with what I expect of media from its era. Could always do better, but it's not the worst.

--homophobia: Tbh, I feel like the show is surprisingly non-homophobic. There are canon gay characters with very sympathetic treatment and multidimensional characterization. I don't think it's homophobic in and of itself to have two straight male leads. Particularly post-classic spn made obvious efforts at inclusion, but even classic spn wasn't terrible in this regard--perhaps mostly through its silence on the issue, which isn't great, but it also means the show ages better than a lot of shows from that era that went for cheap homophobic jokes (and boy, are there so so many of them). Some people argue Dean is homophobic but I honestly don't buy it. The only thing I can think of is him calling Sam gay as a teasing insult, but that just honestly doesn't bother me. It was before 2010, he's a macho dude teasing his little brother. I don't think it really reflects whatever he actually thought about gay people. I think Dean is actually a great barometer of shifting societal attitudes in this way. At that time, gay as an insult like that was still pretty common, but in the following decade it became apparent to most people why that's not cool, and I think Dean grew with that too. There's no way later-season Dean would use that insult. Anyway I could go on about Dean and the homophobia arguments but I won't lol. Overall, I think the show does better with lesbian and gay (sadly no bi or trans) rep than with the other issues above, because it manages not to perpetuate harmful stereotypes.

Wow, I know this got long, but hey, they're complex issues that deserve thoughtful answers! I'm always a fan of digging into media to look at the implications and how it reflects the culture of the time, and if you dig into spn, there's plenty that's "problematic," and it's worth discussing. But I don't usually find cause to outright criticize the show on these fronts, and partially that's a matter of managing my expectations.

Thanks for the ask!

Ask game

[renegade-skywalker]

It’s a shame how underappreciated Mical is, really, especially since I think he gets the Luke Skywalker treatment when it comes to dudebros complaining about how whiney he is. But he is actually rather similar to Luke in many respects. Not just in appearance and temperament, but even in how they react to the things that happen to them, and unlike everyone else in kotor 2, Mical manages to remain a beacon of hope in a way that I think he may be some strange fictional past-life of Leslie Knope’s.

I may be jaded by nearly 12 years of fandom, but Mical is usually depicted as this goody-two-shoes, and he kind of is, but it’s not really his defining trait. Sure, he’s a nerd but he’s incredibly intelligent, and his opinions don’t actually differ from many of the other characters - namely Atton who has a distinct dislike of him and would probably rather die than ever admit that they’re at all alike. In most ways, they aren’t, but their opinions are actually far more aligned than I think either of them realizes, and if this game were ever remade with updated graphics/party banter/npc interaction etc. like many modern rpgs, this sort of interaction would be something I would totally want to see. 

Okay, okay, I’m already all over the place. Let’s start with when/where/how we meet Mical. Depending on whether you play as male/female, Mical’s role differs. If a female, he joins your party and you learn more about him bit by bit, but if male he has a Jedi-heavy conversation with you in the ruins of the Jedi Temple and then again back at Khoonda militia HQ aaaaand that’s it. Mical has a wealth of knowledge regarding Jedi history, and as an agent of the Republic can also provide insight regarding how the Jedi conflict(s) have also affected the galaxy at large. As eager as Mical is to become a Jedi from the onset (as a companion) he does have a very objective view of the Order. He’s more up-front with his view-points if you talk to him the second time as a male Exile, but he basically lays down the law for you. Like Atton, Mical understands how the rest of the universe sees the Jedi. Common folk don’t see a difference between Jedi and Sith, hence why the Jedi Civil War is called just that and does not at all reference the fact that Revan and Malak returned as Sith. Which is his main point. What makes Mical, well Mical, is his insight. He finds it curious that Revan made certain choices as a Sith Lord, such as keep Onderon untouched (even if it is plagued by its own civil war, currently) while other worlds were demolished, as if in preparation for something else, something unseen and unpredictable. But despite his astute observations, and regardless of what he believes Revan was actually trying to do, he does condemn both sides, Jedi and Sith. He mentions the fall of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma, and how it was potentially their masters who are at fault for what happened, the same going for Revan and Malak. But instead of shrugging it off and condemning the lot of them, he goes on to say why the Jedi are still important regardless. I think this is a lesson TLJ tried to teach us but didn’t give it enough time to really sink in. The image of the Jedi, what they stand for and what they mean in theory is part of what keeps other, larger gears in motion, like the Republic, and he believes the Jedi should be held accountable but also that they could do better. I think this is where Mical and Atton really differ.

One of the first, most poignant, conversations with Atton revolves around the events of the previous games. Atton acts as a bit of a conduit for the player establishing their world state as much as he acts as a representative for “average space folk”. Despite his past, Atton believes himself to be like “everyone else”, so his experiences during the Mandalorian Wars and even the Jedi Civil War are from that of an average non-Force Sensitive person. Since the discovery of the latter is what causes him to leave his Sith station, Atton’s experiences are still that of someone unfamiliar with the Force or the two ideologies surrounding the use/manipulation of it. He’s the first one to tell you that the average person sees no difference between the Jedi and the Sith, though namely because of the Jedi Civil War. Mical is the one to further explain why, and while he disagrees with how both factions handled themselves and essentially fucked the galaxy over because of what many saw as a pissing contest, Mical also sees the advantage of hope or at least the idea of it. The Jedi, despite their faults, do have the capacity to do good for the collective people at large. The Sith Code is not inherently evil, per se, but is a very self-centered ideology, whereas the Jedi Code does at least attempt to “protect” and “preserve” the whole of humanity versus the interests of a single person or party.

But what makes this perspective so meaningful for Mical is that he was overlooked as a padawan, he wasn’t even granted the opportunity to train despite his Force sensitivity, and he was essentially denied ever becoming a Jedi, at least formally. Despite the circumstances and despite his luck, Mical still has trust in the idea of the Jedi and finds hope in it. Perhaps it has something to do with his time before being called away, but he could also easily be bitter for it as well, but he isn’t. His bitterness could have been multiplied if he was holding a grudge against the Exile for not taking him on as a padawan and instead leaving to join Revan’s war. But, again, he’s not. This is a lesson that the other companions learn in one way or another, and even if they don’t trust the Jedi as a conglomerate, characters like Atton and Visas agree to train with you because they trust you and they believe that learning the ways of the Force can help them grow as people and to help you in your quest more effectively. Even if they don’t believe in the Jedi, they believe in you. Which does tie into Mical’s hopes for the future of the Jedi Order. As messy as things are, especially considering the whole Revan/Exile business is not really canon but has plenty of additional material what with the book and the SWTOR DLC and other related content, the Exile and their companions form the foundation of the Jedi Order that follows, which I guess is the only thing that makes sense since everyone else literally dies by the end of TSL. 

But for all its lessons, TSL is still a precursor to the Jedi Council of the prequels, which we know is just as fraught with issues as the Council that dismissed Revan and the Exile yet sort of started this whole mess, so no matter what the Exile learned or changed about how the Jedi operate as a whole didn’t stick. I feel like this was a lesson missing from TLJ. Luke focuses on the failings of the Jedi that preceded him, and his argument for the Jedi to end is a good one. What we were missing is the thought-process behind keeping the Jedi alive, not because their foundational texts were law, but in that they represented hope and goodness and that’s what should continue, even if the rest of it changes (which it should). 

Anyway, this started out as a post about Mical… and he is essentially what I was hoping Luke would be, though he was missing a bit. He eventually came to the same conclusion in TLJ, that the Jedi are flawed but are needed, but he didn’t get to see that journey. What I also like about Mical is that he’s experienced the failing of the Jedi first hand but he still sees a use for them. Not only was he denied becoming a Jedi or training as one, but he was then sent to the corps so he ends up seeing the Mandalorian Wars up close, and as a medic he get’s a front row seat to the atrocities of war as well as the suffering that the Jedi at large are wholly ignoring. Even as a Republic officer or whatever he is, his interest in politics and history are what allow him to see through Revan’s ruse, he finds out where the Council went wrong and what could be done to stop it. There was even cut content from the game (not in the restoration mod, though, I don’t think this ever got to production) where Mical would lead you to hidden Jedi and Sith holocrons, perhaps in his attempt to preserve the teachings of the Jedi and any information about the Sith once it appears that both are gone from the galaxy. While the other characters either see things as dark, grey, or are just incredibly jaded, Mical is always as objective as he can be (and he admits his biases) as well as positive. In a game that is so dark, and often so defeating, it’s nice having someone like him on board. I feel like a lot of the (especially old) fandom view of him was skewed and only highlighted his more “annoying” qualities but I feel like it’s a nice counterbalance to the rest of the game and the characters in it. Honestly, the only other people as helpful and positive are the Ithorians and let’s be honest, it’s kind of a chore to get through those dialogue bits.

[alexiethymia]

I'm good with the prospect of an Iris & Caitlin friendship as long as 1) there's some kind of build up and the show doesn't try to pretend they were always friends and 2) the fact that Cait actively tried to help kill Iris is substantively addressed. I get that it was supposed to be KF and not Cait that tried to kill her, but the show waffled around too much (she means it! no she doesn't!) for me to totally overlook it. She apologized for HR, but not trying to kill Iris. Explanation needed. 1/2

Beyond that, I’m down. I think it’s ridiculous that they waited until the fourth season of the show to foster a friendship between the only two permanent female characters on the show. My issues are less about Cait and more general writing issues with the show. That said, I don’t think people having a problem with the idea of Iris just suddenly being good friends with someone who tried to kill her (again, hopefully we get a sufficient explanation) is “pitting women against each other”. 2/2Also, worth noting that certain segments of this fandom spent the back half of season three wishing a black woman dead (because not enough violence is done against us in real life, I guess?) so their ship could prevail, so, no. I’m not surprised they’re against a friendship. They’re mad she survived S3 and mostly ship what they ship because of misogynoir.]

All good points, and I do definitely agree with you that it’s more writing issues on the show, but as for me, it’s better to be late than never. I mean, exactly, they are the two permanent female characters of the show. How else do you want their relationship to develop? Enemies? Disinterested acquaintances? I think that would be worse writing. (But yes, considering that you are actually a black person yourself, it might resonate more with you than it does with me, thus the below are just my opinions.)

Your first point, maybe it’s just my perspective, but I’ve seen Iris and Caitlin as friends now for the past seasons. Maybe not as good friends with each other as they are with Barry, but still it was Caitlin who gave Iris that gentle shove towards Barry, and Iris who worried about Caitlin becoming KF even with her death hanging over her, for which Caitlin was grateful for. I do really wish that there would be more build-up hence I’m crossing my fingers for S4.

Second point, I don’t see it as Caitlin actively trying to kill Iris as so many distinctions have been made between her and Killer Frost. I consider Killer Frost a separate personality in the same vein as Magenta which was reaffirmed for me when Caitlin said during the finale that she was no longer either. Killer Frost also tried to actively kill Cisco and Barry but that fact doesn’t get between Caitlin’s friendships with the both of them because they realize it’s not really Caitlin. I’m sure Iris does too. But yes, I really wish it would also be addressed. I mean I love Barry and he’s really open about (some) things, but he really damn messed up when he told Caitlin about her fate before Flashpoint, not knowing what else Caitlin was going through at the time. 

Third, I think it’s pitting two women against each other when they want these two wonderful women who have so much in common to get into a catfight (figuratively speaking) from a shipping perspective. I have seen so many arguments like that, where their dislike for the other stems from the fact that they hate her with Barry, because really I have seen nothing on the show which would give in to the idea of them hating each other. As to Caitlin apologizing for Killer Frost’s actions, I think that would be in character for her, but she’d probably address it to the whole team. The fact that she’s back with the Team Flash, and Team Flash is now being led by Iris means that Iris trusted her enough to welcome her back. Sucks that that conversation happened offscreen, which is why I am adamant they show more of their friendship in the coming episodes.

Fourth, I definitely agree with you that a race issue is present (anyone else who thinks no, is in my opinion, blind or in denial). So yeah, if it’s that aspect, I can see why some people might be hesitant, but I attribute that to the toxic shippers or fans, but not the character herself. I believe it is so important that a black woman character gets empowered like this, and I also don’t want that empowerment to mean that she can’t have female friendships. So long as Caitlin doesn’t overshadow her (because yes, there is a different standard of treatment for white females and black females in media), I would still really love for a friendship between them. 

(Btw, I’m a brown person, so my opinions, at least I hope, weren’t influenced by me identifying more with one character over the other.)