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horsedylan · 2 days ago

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Sue K- Background, Misconceptions and The Defense of.

Strap in folks, this will be a very long one. (i spent awhile on it lol, im tired)

Back in 2016 the consensus within the community towards Sue was positive. She was respected, and she gave people a gleam into what in sam hell was going on with her son, with her, etc. Then something happened. One, the great purge where a bunch of OG accounts got deleted and the shitposters (people like me :D) took over (literal defamation by shitpost), and a little while later a horrible video from the youtuber timmy2cents got published and went viral. It appeared well researched and produced but it was anything but. A good amount of hate for Sue came from this video, and I do believe played 100% a part of the narrative souring towards her.

I dislike timmy2cents with a fruity passion (he’s worth far less than that) . The absolute permanent damage he has done to the discussion surrounding a kind, and gentle grieving mother is deplorable.

He has somehow almost outdone Dave Cullen as far as mischaracterization goes, and subsequent damage.. And has had the same childish response to boot.

Before you read the rest of this: if you were one of the millions of poor unfortunate souls that consumed this timmy2cents video and take issue with Sue’s TedTalk. There are TWO must watch videos I encourage you to consume. You have been fed LIES. (That and it’s actually quite interesting to look at how tricky well produced propaganda can be to spot.)

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This entire thing has been sparked by so much outsider discourse where people parrot information directly from that timmy2cents video resulting in such insightful comments that insinuate she takes no accountability for what happened, and that she should “rot in hell” that she’s an “evil bitch”, that she used her son’s death for profit, that she excuses what he did (she doesn’t), that she’s a narcissist (be wary of anyone thats insistent on the narcissist label btw) etc. Repeating the same arguments from the timmy2cents video. He made the argument that this incredibly, permanently traumatized VICTIM of Columbine was a narcissist, and has now convinced millions of people of the same conclusion based on flimsy evidence. Also im not even going to address Todd Grande’s video on her regardless of his opinions whether they match mine (doubtful) or if he stays in his character. He’s not a good resource for psychology and he’s a known misogynist. If you watch him I encourage you to unsubscribe. He is way out of depth.

So anyway I wanted to make a post regarding Miss Sue and common misconceptions regarding her, or defences for problems people typically have with her.

Also feel free to copy and paste or otherwise steal and save any sort of info/argument post i have and repost it as your own (or link it to someone to shut them up.) I honestly don’t even care (especially if I get nuked) Fuck, any of my shit really. Take it, idc.

A Brief Background of Sue Klebold.

This information for Sue's background comes from Jeff Kass' book. I am not the biggest fan of the guy, his information is very good but in my books he is far too aggressive, rude (why'd you do Robyn dirty Jeff), and accusatory for my taste, so we shall semi respectfully/disrespectfully take this information and leave.

(Dylan's grandpa and grandma)

Leo Yassenoff, her grandfather (though not related by blood) was an activist for jewish rights/causes, and was an athlete. There is a Jewish Community Centre in Ohio named after him. Her father Milton Rice Yassenoff and his adopted brother Abner were adopted from The Jewish Infants Home in Columbus. Milton was born in Toledo, Ohio in 1919 and was of Russian descent. Leo passes away in 1971 of renal failure (two months after Tom and Sue marry), at the age of 88, he chooses to donate most of his 13-14 million dollar fortune to charity. Abner kills himself in the 1940's though a death certificate hasn't been located according to Kass.

Milton was an army man and served in World War 2. Once he came back he met his wife and Sue's mother Charlotte Haugh who grew up in small-town Ohio. This description of Sue's mother Charlotte is from Sue's eventual stepbrother Charles Huelsman the Third and is as follows; "Soft, diplomatic, a terribly nice person. Social, charitable, loving, concerned, empathic, real giving person, really tried to raise her kids well.”

Charolette would convert to Judaism, they belonged to the reform Temple Israel but are described as hardly attending. In total of biological children, Charolette and Milton would have three (in respective order); Diane Elizabeth, Susan Frances, and Philip Leo. Sue was 18 years old at the time of her father's passing of uremia. This sudden passing of her father at such a young age would pave for severe anxiety to come. Sue's mom would die of cardiac arrest in 1987 at 65.

Sue herself was born on March 25, 1949 and attended the private Columbus School for Girls from grades 1 through 12. Sue was involved in a number of extracurriculars throughout her time here. She was assistant art editor of the school paper, Silhouette, and art editor the next year. She was also art editor of TOPKNOT, the yearbook. She was involved in Scroll, the literary magazine that included art, stories, and poetry. She was in the art club, I’Pittori, along with the Latin club. She took photos for the school newspaper as well. An old classmate of Sue's mentions she and her sister Diane were quiet. Another described her as a private person.

She graduates from here the same year her father died in 1967. She then enrolled in Knox College but it didn't last, she left in 1969 to go back home to her mother. She sought counselling with pop psychologist (derogatory) Hugh Missildine, to deal with the intense anxiety her father's death had caused her.

Susan Yassenoff, shows up in his 1974 book co-authored with Lawrence Galton, Your Inner Conflict - How to Solve Them. Sue apparently appears under the pseudonym “Sandra,” This wasn't enough to stop the bloodhound Jeff Kass. Despite being under a pseudonym for a reason. He figures out who "Sandra" really is and makes a phone call. “I came across your profile in the Hugh Missildine book.” he says when Sue answers the phone. "What?” she said. “Yeah,” I reply, “in the, it was a few, quite a few years ago, the profile you had as Sandra.” “I think you are way out of base here, I’m going to hang up now,” Susan says.

Her lawyer, criminal defense attorney Gary Lozow, quickly called an intermediary. Lozow called it a matter that occurred when Susan Klebold was nineteen, however nothing ever comes of this as Sue seemingly leaves it alone after the fact.

Here is the copy paste of Sue's profile from the book:

Sandra is a twenty-year-old woman who came to see me because of a phobia. “I have a death phobia,” she told me. “It underlines everything I do. I think about death all the time.” She is a music student, about to graduate from college, has been living for the past year with her fiancé and is very much in love with him, as he is with her. He too is in music. When I asked her to talk about herself, she told me: “I’m afraid of failure. I won’t even attempt something unless I’m assured of success. I think too much. I don’t have a temper. “War things and medical programs bother me. I was terrified of bugs as a child. Airplanes used to bother me, too, and storms. My mother used to cuddle me and comfort me when I was fearful. When I was afraid, my sister would call me stupid. I scold myself for being afraid. I often feel that I’m a burden to people. I sometimes get depressed. “I think the fear of death will always be there. I wish I could turn off this part of my mind. I wish there were traumas to explain all this, but I’ve never had any traumas. When I get a headache, I’m always sure it is fatal. Then I worry that I will die, which makes the headache worse. Everything makes me think of death. I have to divert myself in the evening constantly—by eating, watching television, practicing my music or masturbating. I feel constantly that I’m coming a minute closer to death. What a waste of time to think of that all the time. But thinking this is a way of life with me.”

Questioned about her family, Sandra told me that her father had been a sensitive, sweet person who enjoyed doing things for her and whom she adored. He had died suddenly just before she had graduated from high school. Her mother?

“A saint—a real saint,” Sandra said. “She is kind, patient, never critical. When I was at home, my mother always enjoyed doing things for me and giving me things.” Here, then, is a young woman who came from a loving home, who is in love and is loved in return, who is bright, is intelligent, is attractive, has a deep interest in music and yet is an emotional cripple. Why should she suffer so much from, and devote so much of her attention to, an almost overpowering fear of death?

I'll spare you his pop psychology explanation for why she feels this way as anyone with half a brain can figure out why she is so terrified of death given the traumatic event she experienced a few years prior. I'll leave the important bits in though.

Sandra decided to do what her fiancé had long urged: get married. She became so busy with the wedding plans that, she told me in some surprise, she was thinking less and less about her fears. She still tends to slip back occasionally into old, indulgent, self-critical ways and to become a little fearful, but she can quickly abort the relapses.

Sue and Tom marry in 1971 on July 1st by a Rabbi. She graduates in 1972 with a masters in art education and a minor in psychology. They move to Milwaukee and she gets a job in the Milwaukee Psychiatric Hospital as an art therapy intern for adults. She then became a psychiatric art therapist at St. Michael Hospital. In 1975, she enrolls in Milwaukee’s Cardinal Stritch College for a master’s degree in reading. She works while in grad school, often in elementary schools. Her jobs included special education teacher’s aide and reading specialist. For about a year, she worked on a government program to help disadvantaged youths at the University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee. (Kass, pg. 40-49)

Misconceptions about/Defense of Sue Klebold (Warning, An Incredibly Compassionate Defense Ahead.)

This section is going to act as a sort of heavily opinionated FAQ. I don't know if it's the best way to do things but I think if anything it makes it more simple?

All of the following screenshots are from a mother's reckoning.

"She profited off D's death" Nope, wrong. She didn't, every single cent from her book was donated to suicide prevention charities. She didn't make money off of the Ted Talk either. And fuck it even if she did I wouldn't care. Her bonehead son made a fucking mess for her, she might as well get something from it other than trauma and heartbreak. But she didn't. So. (https://www.rmpbs.org/blogs/news/how-much-has-the-book-by-the-mother-of-a-columbine-killer-raised-for-charity)

"She bought him the trench coat" Okay Diane Sawyer, relax with your puritan ways. it was a coat not a glock. Next you'll criticize her for letting him play video games.

"D asked her for a gun for Christmas." She thought he was joking. According to Devon Adams, he had a dark sense of humour, and according to Sue he had a habit of asking her for ludicrous things when Christmas came around. She thought it was just another one of those things. She asked him why and he said target practice. It is not unreasonable. That family was known for being anti gun, their neighbours had them in the house and Sue refused to have them (despite the fact that it was deemed culturally acceptable to do so), so I'd probably interpret it as a ludicrous request from my son to get a rise out of me. Is it weird? Sure if you want to reach fine.

Also…Boys like guns? Like go into your local toy store, look at what you find. Those guns with the red parts that crack? Water guns? Nerf guns? Plenty of boys seriously ask for guns for Christmas too and get air soft instead even now in the current year, it was probably even more normalized in the 90's where they were fucking making pipe bombs on the regular. Seriously, I swear half of that school was cooking up pipe bombs its actually insane.

I'm just gonna point this out but plenty of boys under 18 (specifically 12-17) in Canada ask their parents to let them get their FAL because its not exactly the most shocking thing for them to be firearm trained.

"Why didn't Sue make D do therapy" Because what she thought she knew about D at the time was that he was a self sufficient guy who was striving to be independent as he approached adulthood, she trusted him, and D took advantage. The...mediator? That was in the room with them asked him how he felt about therapy, and he blatantly fucking lied and said "I'll prove to you I'm fine." Sue respected his input. A lot of you may make the complaint of "Oh well she should have made him do it" and while I do understand the sentiment I'm going to put it out there, being forced into therapy often makes it worse. We see that a lot in this community too.

Also E's family got him a therapist and guess what? It didn't do a damn thing to stop what happened. (I personally think the reaction to the van incident was a bit overblown in of itself. Teenage boys do dumb stuff constantly it doesn't mean they need therapy. Like, back in the day I broke into a church and completely fucking trashed the place with friends. I was so embarrassed and remain so even now, and yet I didn't need therapy nor did I go on to hurt people after being caught.)

A bit of a side note with E's therapy, You can have the best therapist in the world, if you aren't interested in the goal of getting better or in Dylan's case you are so prideful to reject all help (while simultaneously complaining about no one helping you i'll add) therapy won't do a damn thing. Neither will medication. Both therapy and Luvox are safe and beneficial (there are some detractors which is fine but this ain't about them) for individuals with a vested interest in self improvement, but Eric was disinterested in having a future being alive and was more preoccupied with his infamy. He liked the aesthetic of violence and the illusion of power being "crazy" gave him (like when he lied about being schizophrenic in his AOL bio) so he abused his medication to further that end instead of taking it how it was advised with the end goal of getting better. If anything I think Eric was honestly more likely to respond to a good and proper therapist before he became more interested in infamy and death than life, more so than Dylan, not because he was less prideful (he most certainly wasn't) but because he was far more external with his emotions than Dylan (Until Dylan blew his top that is). That's pretty helpful in a therapeutic environment.

So to say it wouldn't have helped if she did get D into therapy. I obviously can only give my opinion but if Eric didn't respond, I doubt someone so sensitive to embarrassment and internal like Dylan would fair any better. But again, this is just my own opinion. I think what D needed was another Zack Heckler. Not a therapist, but a friend who was emotionally intelligent. He found his emotional outlet in Eric once Zack became preoccupied with Devon, and both of them stoked each others rage and marinated in it together as some sort of bonding and coping ritual. I think Zack was the one keeping it in check.

Zack heckler had issues similar to Dylan. According to Sarah Slater he and Dylan would cry about these things on the phone together. Devon came into the picture and I think changed Zack for the better, I believe this convinced Dylan that his antidote for his depression was a soulmate. In a way he isn't wrong. Perhaps I'm an optimist but I do think having physical contact from a girl that loved him (not necessarily anything sexual) would have helped him immensely (eric too, no matter how much emphasis he put on just sex). Sue mentioned he was a sensitive, physically affectionate child after all. I don't think this fact ever changed.

"She blames E for the entire thing and makes D into the innocent victim" This one is a lot more complex but the short of it is ehhh..Maybe? No? Yes? Maybe? Sometimes? No. Yes..? The long of it is;

She was always going to be somewhat biased. This book is about her son after all. She knew her son. Carried him, loved him, etc. Her understanding of her son's culpability has been a journey through shit lake with no boat to speak of. A journey that she had to endure while she was heavily traumatized bear in mind. That is what A Mother's Reckoning is all about. She has come a long way in her understanding in 1999 to 2016 when the book was released.

She does not play pretend with Dylan’s involvement but rather has a more biased empathetic/sympathetic view of her own flesh and blood and his potential motives, nor does she excuse him for what he has done (no matter what your average redditor thinks of her and her tedtalk) but rather wishes to understand HOW he got to the place he did. I think it is closer to say she flipflops, she is lost, she doesn’t have an inkling as to what Eric’s motives were, the extent of any sort of pain he carried, his family life, and that she heavily mischaracterizes who he was as person and his motives, due to meddling "professionals" while accepting her son as a willing participant.

When it first happened she was in a state of traumatized denial. She was clinging to every bit of hope that her son wasn't some bloodthirsty killer. She describes the time she heard of these like…military mind control tapes that EH's parents had in their house, and in the throes of grief entertained that perhaps D was brainwashed by these tapes by EH.

On top of that, Judy Brown showed her E's website AFTER the shooting. AFTER, not before, AFTER. ( a lot of people shit on her saying she knew about it and did nothing but again, not true). This was also before she saw the BT's and also before D's journal got released to her in 2006 (I think it was 2006?) Then she saw the basement tapes and could no longer deny Dylan's culpability/cruelty in the act.

But what did she have to go off of at the time? The website, the time that Eric verbally abused Dylan for being bad at soccer, and Dylan just standing there and taking it.

Sue knew Eric + his parents sure, and had him around a few times, but did not know him very well. His parents did not come forward to humanize him to the public so she was just about in the dark as everyone else.

Then something else happened to add to the character assasination of Eric. In 2009 a book was published by "author" Dave Cullen called Columbine. He touted this book as the ultimate authority on Columbine, himself as an expert on the event that spent years researching it. So many places schools and universities alike use his book as gospel for studying the event. It characterized Eric as a womanizing psychopath who was intrinsically evil (paraphrasing). It hyper-fixates and waters Dylan down to a lost puppy wrapped up in Eric's scheme and charisma. Cullen was not the only person to characterize him as a psychopath either, so so many "professionals" and "experts" from psychologists to FBI agents, wanted their moment in the spotlight and came forward to say the same thing. When Sue went looking for answers and consultation for her book, she went to the experts and professionals, because that is simply what you do. This is some of what these "professionals" advised Sue about Eric and Dylan, not Sue, but the professionals;

(The above quote is from Andrew fucking Solomon, I do not assign him as much malice in his focus but he certainly had such an influence on Sue so much so that he spent time in their house.)

The biggest issue with Sue Klebold ultimately isn't Sue Klebold. Dave Cullen and the others mentioned before took advantage of and capitalized on a incredibly traumatized and grieving mother who wanted answers as to why her little boy who she dearly loved did what he did, Dave Cullen put himself in the front of the dialogue to further his name, authority and narrative. We don't know what he told her, but its almost a for sure thing that he advised her on all the "research" he did on Eric's person as it almost perfectly matches up to what is presented. There was no one else to accurately advise her on this matter. She could have turned to Kass for a basic idea (sort of), but again, but he was also limited due to the lack of parental interviews (apart from the one he got from Eric's dad where he followed him into a bathroom.), and he hadn't exactly been non aggressive with Sue. No, he burned that bridge. She wanted nothing to do with him and I do not blame her.

(fuck you Dave)

She did not come up with what she said earlier on her own to throw Eric under the bus.. If you have that many professionals telling you time and time again that he was a psychopath, you are going to take absorb it. If she ignored what the professionals told her at the time, she would once again be deemed a narcissist;

"Oh, you think you know better than handfuls of psychologists and experts? Wow Sue you're so narcissistic thinking you're smarter than everyone else." Yeah. Like Anne Marie Hocchalter's father states, she was in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, and the people who never went through what they did like to criticize her and pretend they are superior when they aren't. (https://zhawkeitsbeensaid.blogspot.com/2016/02/sue-klebold-what-were-you-thinking.html)

I even feel bad for the Harrises here as well because these same glory seeking professionals that convinced Sue Eric was the ringleading psychopath (sort of?ish?), also convinced them that the son they loved (and yes I'm sure despite Wayne's problems he still loved Eric) that their son was some psychopath who didn't share in that love. I think that is honestly fucking evil. Like as far as Dave Cullen goes, he didn't just write a book with fake information and a false narrative and advertised it as truth to the public, he also provided fake advice and information to a grieving mother and misrepresented it as truth. The absolute audacity man.

I think people forget that the families of school shooters have been severely traumatized, while they demand answers with a shocking amount of entitlement, resentment and hostility. And unlike the families of the shooters direct victims, they do not have the same supports they can rely on. and they are constantly being attacked by residents of the community, the media, etc. It takes years for them to heal to, on top of coming to an understanding of the why. People can get mad about Wayne not getting E from the lawyer after his cremation (and I do understand why they'd be pissed) but he was angry. *His boy killed people*, lied to him and his wife. But trauma guides our responses to things, it may not make sense for us who are privileged enough to not be in their position but its good practice to understand this simple fact.

(^These psychologists should follow the things they say more closely. The one thing I can agree with them on.)

If anything, I'd say if you take into account some of her interviews as well as her book it seems she, in her own mind, goes back and forth from neutral to biased. Its interesting but you can see a glimpse of her uncertainty regarding Eric here where she makes note of BOTH of their suicidality, though to what extent Eric was depressed and the coping mechanisms he had she doesn’t know to the fullest extent because again, she cannot humanize or understand Eric. (Also in some long since lost interviews I can no longer find she mentions how she cannot presume to know what exactly was wrong with him. I wish I could find them but its been awhile.)

She cannot champion Eric. She is not his mother nor his father. I’m sorry but if you’re the type to hate Sue for this (or any of the people involved here like Devon) you need to have a reality check. Ah yes. Endless compassion for the two boys that needlessly stole the lives of their classmates but absolutely fucking none for the innocents traumatized permanently for their deeds. 90% of the time its people partial to their romanticized version of Eric doing it too, and its just annoying lol (not people who like Eric, there is a difference.)

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"She didn't separate E and D" She did separate them initially, but Kathy H begged her not to do this. And why? Because she didn't want to isolate Eric. That's one of the worst things you can do for someone struggling is take away some form of social support.

Also, how do you separate two kids who go to the same school. Do you yank the one out in the middle of a school year and get them acquainted to a brand new school? Do you understand that that is one of the worst fucking things for child/teen development. That's part of the reason E was so fucked up in the first place.

"She didn't search his room" Yes she did, she stopped really doing it the further he got into senior year and stated that D was what, less than a month from graduating from high school and going to college, you have to let go of the reigns at some point (paraphrasing).

"She kicked Byron out"

No, watch Miorby's video. She didn't.

"She pushed him up against the fridge" So? Oh no a mother parents her son. It is completely normal for a parent to be hurt that her almost adult son forgot mother's day, on top of the van incident and being blatantly disrespectful she wanted to make a point that he was being a brute. She didn't body slam him lol. She put her hand on his stomach and held him there by the shoulder and gave him a lecture because he wasn't pulling his weight.

Despite me defending her here, she regrets not asking him what was up and wishes she knew what was up. But genuinely ask yourself, Dylan, who oh so loved lying to people, would he tell her the truth? She asked him multiple times before if he was okay and he LIED to her every fucking time.

"She downplayed Dylan's role in the van incident with her answers in that one form when describing what Dylan did to get arrested" No she didn't. I'm not gonna even explain this one to you, that claim is pure body/handwriting expert pseudoscience reaching. Watch Miorby's video's linked above if you care about this genuinely I'm not interested in "debating" you.

"How did she not know, the signs were there" Because she didn't. What warning signs do you speak of? D took painstaking effort to go out of his way to hide things from her and lie. There were no warning signs at the time because in order for something to be a warning sign, it has to be an acknowledged recognized sign to begin with, this wasn't such a thing in the 90's, I think its not a stretch to say a lot of the dialogue regarding mental health was coasting off the remains of the satanic panic. A lot of you are using the information of today to address an event that happened 26 years ago. Mental health care was not mainstream, it was not something parents addressed on the regular, if anything EH parents were closer to the norm than DK's. People cannot know what they don't. People will not know things that there is very little information on, if any at all.

Mental health and mental health care was barely existent, especially for men. Nope. No forget about it. Know the "my dad's gonna send me of to military school" gag? Or the old "Stop crying or i'll give you something to cry about" That was their therapy. I would really love to know how the conversation between E's parents and him went, regarding a therapist for E, I doubt Wayne handled it well.

This is ultimately why a society that makes this information incredibly accessible and integral to parenting is NECESSARY. Not fucking shoving it into the back of a closet and pretending it doesn't exist or making it some moral issue. And this is exactly what Sue is trying to do with the work she has done. People cannot know what they don't know, what has been shoved into a closet by a puritan Christian place like America/Littleton. That's the whole point of awareness campaigns. If you're still not convinced, go read what Anne Marie's father has to say about "warning signs".

You are placing an expectation of perfection onto a extremely traumatized human being. I am not saying she did not make errors, but you cannot live without making errors, and you cannot recognize them as mistakes as they are happening because that would be having hindsight 20/20 vision., It is literally impossible. She didn't hand him a gun, she tried to raise him with empathy. She was a better mother than my own.

"But she educated in Mental Health!" Sue Klebold was (sorry) barely a mental health professional. She was a therapeutic art teacher. Kass says art therapist but its more or less the same.. I'm not trying to be rude here, but that is basically meaningless when we are talking about being capable of recognizing warning signs. Like, I have actual background in psych as an industry, I've been getting education in it since I was in grade 10. (I took all my necessary psych courses but didn't want to waste money on a fucking French requirement) What I can tell you is that both her status as a therapeutic art teacher and her minor in psych is worthless as far as identifying warning signs in the 90's go. They are not responsible for diagnostics.

"She doesn't address gun control" You know this is actually really interesting. There were a few instances of mentioning gun control, one was a video interview breakfast conference with Sue back in 2018ish, a sort of blink and you'll miss. She mentioned that she does have an issue with how accessible guns were and are, but was terrified of the NRA. I do not blame her here and I think it speaks volumes of how terrifying those people are and the fucking blood on their hands (I'm not here to debate with gun nuts, i'm not anti gun so save it.)

"She says brain health" Omg…I get the joke but if you're serious. who the fuck cares? She's an old lady who grew up in a time where mental illness was seen as a severe negative moral failing and she doesn't want to inadvertently make it harder for people to seek out mental health treatment for fear of being seen as a crazy "mental case". This difficulty is what killed her son. Do I agree with her choice of terminology? No in fact I think its counterproductive (sorta).

BUT honestly, ya'll who say this seriously, sound like this lol

"She ignored Dylan when she heard him crying" No she didn't. this is a conflation of two events. I posted about this before, go look.

"How did she not notice his weight loss" She did, and she responded by offering him extra food between meals.

Dylan was a really tall guy, when you are a very tall teenage guy, you often look borderline anorexic no matter the amount you eat, and I recognize he lost weight but if I was bearing witness to it in real life I doubt i'd notice. I don't think it was as severe as people say too. They cite D's driver's license but that was certainly a guess on his part, he didn't weigh that much in 1997-98.

Your metabolism is fast, and you've got a lot of body that inherently makes you lose weight quick. Brooks Brown looked just as scrawny back then. Also eating disorders (I doubt he had one but regardless) were barely recognized for women back then, if anything it was encouraged (tuberculosis chic anyone lol) But for men? Forget it. It wasn't a thing. It's barely recognized as a problem now. If something isn't a thing or seen as a problem then chances are, you, a non researcher, won't know about it.

"But Randy Brown dislikes Sue's book and calls her book full of lies." Randy Brown dislikes Sues book and calls it a book of lies for a variety of reasons; none of them good. One is because Sue believes Dylan killed himself. Randy hates Eric Harris with a fruity passion and he thinks he murdered Dylan. He doesn't think there was mental illness present in either of them (obviously he's wrong lol). So does his creepy son Brooks Brown for that matter. Randy Brown as far as I'm concerned is a narcissist just like his son (Yes, I just told you to be wary of anyone who uses this label but know I do no use it because of sexism, but rather a long documented history involving himself in something that ultimately has nothing to do with him, if you want to criticize me for it fine.), who has placed himself in front of someone who was directly involved in this case and started speaking over her as an authority figure. He acts like he's some sort of expert on Dylan but no. Anytime you ask him for this secret bit of evidence he says he has, he refuses to provide it. He isn't an expert on Dylan.

(I understand these are 4 years old but he doesn't change his mind often)

Also Sue seems to have not regarded the relationship between Judy and herself as close as the Brown's like to portray. I think this reddit user summed it up better than I could

If Sue believed Randy's hypothesis about Eric people would still call her a narcissist too. Same thing with whole focusing on bullying as a cause that Randy has. She really is backed into a corner.

"She doesn't want the BT's to be released" This is another reason why Randy dislikes her. Let's do a little thought exercise shall we. When D did what he did the entire world pointed the finger at Sue. Half of the BT's were just the two boneheads thinking of every slur and going off, drooling on themselves and encouraging others to do the same.

Most professionals agree that it would inspire more shootings. Even in Canada we have a BSU (behavioral science unit) who advises against the release of this sort of material and had this happen similarly in 2019. Whether or not I agree or you do is irrelevant here (not that it matters, JeffCo releasing the cafeteria footage made this entire thing pointless anyway) If you are in her shoes, and the entire world blames you for the shooting, and professionals are telling you the release of these tapes would inspire others to take more lives in the name of your son, would you want them released? Probably not.

"She kept her hair appointment" So? Her son just went out and killed others and then himself. Would you want to be sitting at the breakfast table alone, looking at the place your son used to sit and its fucking empty? She was having panic attacks and was terrified of being alone. One of the worst things you can do when you've been traumatized like that is being alone, the presence of others is helpful. If you can't understand that…like…I can't help you here.

She was preoccupied with the junior photo thing Yeah I don't really have a defence for this but can only empathize and call others to do the same. I think she was an anxiety perfectionist. Given the outlined anxiety we went over above I don't think this is as surprising. She regrets it everyday. Again, this didn't drive D into doing what he did.

"What About the Laptop Stealing?" You know I'm not convinced Tom told her that happened. I have always gotten the impression that Tom gave Dylan this sense of accountability avoidance, imo the guy kind of comes off with an air of ego (I wonder if that's why D showed some distancing from his dad). Even when D got involved in that locker incident, he sends D out so he can deal with this for him? Weird. Also even if she did I think it is unreasonable for you to expect her to bring up every happening of D's life. A bit of kleptomania doesn't mean they're gonna kill someone.

"She didn't notice him SH" Dylan was such an interesting critter that he chose his hands to do it on. We don't know how often he did it but regardless of frequency I doubt anyone would notice. It's one of those "its so stupid its smart" deals. They had cats and bird, My brain would automatically assume it was cat scratches or a bird bite.

"She sometimes calls it Eric's plan"

We don't know who came up with it first, some mistakenly believe it was 100% Dylan as he started journalling first before Eric. But we don't know, it was probably at the same time, Either way. Silly yes, but 100% due to again the advisement of malicious professionals.

“She only does it for image” nah. The world pointed the finger and blamed her. It asked how this happened. She answered to the best of her ability and found healing in her work.

She wasn’t a public figure she could have stayed in the dark, private like the Harrises but she didn’t. Her image is constantly being called a narcissist every 5 seconds despite being a wonderful person. She’s in a unique position and decided to become a force for good.

“Oh well who cares we’re tcc so we can be immoral its stupid to care about morality so ill shit on victims if i want” A lot of people in this community are genuinely wonderful people. You aren’t inherently immoral for being here. If you want to use your presence here as a crutch and an excuse for you to continue to be a shitty fucking person that's your business. Your insistence of a lack of morality is still an insistence of a certain kind of morality, you just don’t like the one where you get judged as an a hole. Get over yourself.

"She said to that one person she has nothing to apologize for after they said i forgive you" as far as the shooting goes, she doesn't. Her son is not her.

"Why do so many people call the mothers of perpetrators narcissists?" Watch this from 1:29:00-1:60:00 ish. It also has some interesting bits about Ed Gein and the problem with the normie true crime types (not us).

youtube

Conclusion 1/Normie Public Reaction/TedTalk (sort of)

They complain that she makes Dylan sympathetic. What is the alternative? They demonize him into a monster that is so beyond human that people can continue writing off the human warning signs that make up a mass shooter? We complain so often here that people demonize far too often. And I agree so I’m grateful that she has spent so much time trying to counteract the “Demon” narrative (even with Eric, she speaks in a pathological manner, rather than some monster sense.)

Dylan was person who was clearly dearly loved, he lived his short life as a very sensitive suicidal person who turned apathetic and homicidal. If he doesn’t care about his own life its not exactly shocking he doesn’t care about hurting strangers (I do genuinely think they mentally blocked out any image of hurting their friends and tried not to dwell on it.)

I think its well within her right to emphasize that he was a person. He was a person that was loved, that loved others.

The world pointed the finger at the parents, and criticized them further and implied their guilt when they were met with silence by them. The biggest question people had was “How did YOU not know”.

So she responded on how, on what she missed so parents don’t make the same mistake. She emphasizes she was not abusive nor was her husband. She has every right to do this as everyone accused her of being abusive. She has every right to defend herself.

Sue Klebold is every high horse “i’m better than you” parent or person’s worst nightmare. She tells you that your perfect teenagers can be depressed, she tells you of the normalized signs of teenage depression that drove her son to kill others and then himself.

She tells you of his human traits; how loving he was as a little boy, peering into her eyes to see if she was healing after a nasty eye infection and crafting her an imperfect Get Well i love you Pegasus as a present to make her feel well, how smart he was counting pinto beans on the floor at 3.

She shows you that it is a human being that commits these acts, not some inhuman demon that is the offspring of a demon. The insistence of anything other then that is copeium. It is a self soothing tactic of “this can’t happen to me, i’m such a great parent”

And she shows her profound love for him, even now. Emphasizing his humanity in a sea of people saying he was a soulless deranged monster.

Despite what he did she collected him like a precious treasure, accompanying him to his cremation despite clearly not wanting him to be cremated (fuck people who desecrate graves by the way) making sure he got a funeral, then spending the rest of her life trying to understand why he did what he did. Throwing herself into a callous, vicious public eye to try to make it up to her son despite him being dead for over a decade when she first came out publicly.

She isn’t a narcissist, she isn’t evil. She isn’t a b*tch. She is a lovely human being who has been through severe trauma. She loved Dylan. Dylan loved her. I know she doubts that. But he clearly did, even when he was about to “leave” he tried to offer her a comfort in the last tape (no matter how churlish it was) telling her he was going to a better place.

I find it unfortunate that Eric's parents couldn't do the same for him so all we have about him are what the careless professionals have to say about him.

Conclusion 2

If anything, this is a lesson in why society must be aware of psychological problems and the variety of ways they manifest and who they can manifest in. A society that makes this information incredibly accessible and integral to parenting is NECESSARY. Not fucking shoving it into the back of a closet and pretending it doesn't exist or making it some moral issue. It is also a lesson in the danger of a culture that is based on domination and hierarchy instead of one that embraces empathy and compassion, both in the extended real world but also in an academic setting (a school culture that treats its athletes with reverence for instance). Bullying had its place in cause but I don't think it's the #1 factor, not by a long shot. I guarantee Isiah Shoels had it worse than those two. Kyle Velasquez too. A bunch of others who had it worse. They didn't do anything to hurt anyone, they didn't plan a shooting. Neither did the 2000 others in that school. Sure they thought of it from time to time, but at the end of the day they didn't, and E+D did. I believe there is something that exists as a fragile foundation that primes certain people for violence. And if you add bullying onto it and ease of access to firearms and normalizing the making of bombs and a friendship with this sort of mutuality, it knocks everything over like a deck of cards. D+E had severe pride issues, and entitlement issues by the end of their lives (as an example, Harris blaming the shooting on the women who turned him down, as if he was entitled to them?), I think most of it stemming from their young age they had an inherent ego centrism to both of them that they probably would have grown out of had they lived to see 25. Like part of the reason D and E were so mad is not just because they were bullied, its because they were at the bottom of the hierarchy which is why they went after freshmen once they aged out of that demographic D even says he wanted what the jocks have (while saying he doesn't lol). E too though indirectly. Both boys prioritized an aesthetic of violence and revenge. I do think this is part of the reason why boys/men are more prone into doing this sort of thing, and being external and blamey about their problems too (not that women are incapable of violence, but the rates of Men vs women aren't even close and they are far more external.). Violence is apart of their socialization blueprint/archetype which is why so many of them are obsessed with media displays of violence that is rewarded with power. Bullying demasculinizes them. Damaged masculinity "redeems" itself through violence. It is the ultimate "Now you see me". D+E went from bottom of the barrel to…I don't want to call them icons. But they certainly solidified themselves into history as we're still talking about them 26 years later.

Anyway, I don't know, I guess I just get a kick out of people who have endless amounts of compassion for two murderers, but absolutely none for the family that loved them very dearly. If you're one of the people gleefully slobbering over yourself about how much you hate Sue and how you can't wait until she dies (yes, I have seen this way too many times here) that's fine, have your weird tantrum. You are just another one of those people that hates on victims, and you're certainly not morally justified.

It feels hippy dippy to say, but I find myself wanting their to be some sort of kind merciful god out there that grants all of us inner peace and reunification, so so badly. I don't believe in any sort of afterlife, but I pray Sue's passing is a gentle one, and I hope she gets to see Dylan again, I really do. For both of their sake.

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#horsedylan #tcc columbine #dylan columbine #eric columbine #columbine 1999 #columbine school shooting #tcc tumblr #tcctwt #tccblr #tc community #tcc fandom #dylan 1999 #eric and dylan #eric 1999 #true cringe community #teeceecee #Youtube

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Let's Chat: Caitlyn Kiramman

**DISCUSSION AND RESPONSE TO ARCANE SO SPOLIER WARNING**

**LONG POST NOT KIDDING**

@xxbrightshadowxx

Happy March Third to you my fellow Arcane fan. It is quite obvious to anyone with a pulse that we are on far opposite ends of the spectrum of the fandom. That being said, you have made a fairly large amount of posts I've considered responding to, and I find this a much cleaner way of responding than all this re-blogging and commenting nonsense.

As it is clearly an issue for you, and I feel quite differently, we are gonna talk Caitlyn Kiramman. And as you identify yourself as "the biggest hater" I feel confident you won't mind a bit of friendly discourse. Since there is no efficient way to respond to multiple posts in one re-blog, each title in bold blue lettering will link directly to your post in question.

Recent Post Regarding Caitlyn Stans

So this of course is your most recent post I believe:

"I think the thing I hate the most about Caitlyn is her stans"

I don't have too much to say here as you are entitled to your opinions and this post is really just that. You don't feel Caitlyn was well executed as a morally grey character, you don't feel Caitlyn fans admit her mistakes, that is all within your rights. Really the only thing I will say is that as a fan of Caitlyn's character and of she and Vi's relationship, it has become increasingly difficult to spend any time discussing her wrong-doing with any detail or nuance, because so much of the rhetoric around her is completely out of control and false.

Comparing Violence In Timebomb VS Violence In Caitvi

So in this post you are comparing your criticism of violence between Ekko and Jinx during their fight on the bridge, against your criticism of violence between Caitlyn and Vi after fight against Jinx & Sevika. Speaking for myself, I am not sure why anyone would be comparing these incidents at all. They are totally different. However, I wanted to point something regarding your approach to this post.

Let's look at the amount of detail and context you include regarding Ekko & Jinx:

"Ekko and Jinx were on opposite sides of a conflict"- You go on to elaborate and explain well.

"Jinx was already known at that time to kill firelights, why would they like eachother? (for sake of honesty you wrote "why would they not" but I feel like the typo and your meaning was very clear, happens to me all the time) And with the situation on the bridge, Jinx killed a lot of enforcers. they were already in a situation of violence".

"They weren't in a romantic relationship".

"They weren't on good terms".

This is well done. You give their current status with each-other, the context for the immediate events that lead them here, a bit of their history and so on. Hardly a deep dive, but I feel like I have a good sense of where Jinx and Ekko are as characters in relation to each other.

Now let's look at your depiction of the leadup to the incident between Caitlyn & Vi:

"They kiss which basically establishes they like each other a lot"

"They were on good terms with each-other and were allies".

"They were working together to take down Jinx".

Okay all good so far I agree to each point even if we are not discussing of the complexity of what is going on between them. I cannot disagree with any of these points. But. Now we get into your list of circumstances leading to Caitlyn hitting Vi:

"Vi stops Caitlyn from shooting at Jinx when there was a moving child on top of her because shooting a weapon when there is a child nearby especially if said shooter is not in the best mindset is not a good idea".

"They (Sevika, Caitlyn and Isha) escape". (Clearly you meant Jinx, no harm no foul)

"Caitlyn insults Vi by saying she's just like the rest of Zaun and isn't different (which is also very ignorant by implying that the norm is bad and evil Zaunites and Vi is some exception to this norm) also saying it's her (Jinx) blood in your veins".

"She walks away and Vi grabs Caitlyn and asks why are you the one acting like her".

"Eight seconds pass before Caitlyn hits Vi in the stomach with her gun, before leaving her alone".

You then give your wrap-up comments regarding the incident:

Recap that they were on good terms and kissed before the fight

"The Violence had already wound down"- You elaborate on Jinx and friends already being gone and that it was no longer life or death.

You make a point showing Vi wasn't going to hit Caitlyn, elaborating that it was not a fight, but assault

"The show never acknowledges this"

"Caitlyn never apologizes for hitting Vi or leaving her. They just move straight to sex"

RESPONSE:

Alrighty. so in summary, you have presented the incident between Caitlyn and Vi as something like this-

A happy couple working together to catch Jinx get into a fight with Jinx and Sevika. Vi stops Caitlyn from shooting because it endangered a kid. So Caitlyn insults Vi, shows anti-zaun prejudice, then assaults Vi for no reason.

There are several things I'd say matter regarding this incident going into it that you did not mention. And while their exclusion does paint Caitlyn as a mean and spoiled rich girl who assaulted Vi for not getting what she wanted, it is incorrect in its entirety.

Caitlyn's Mental State-

I feel it is only reasonable to consider the impact of the long and unmentioned list of violent trauma Caitlyn has experienced over a very short period leading to this incident. After all, when we discuss the incident and its aftermath how could such things not matter? To that end, fortunately I recently prepared a time-stamped list of the relevant information on another post that covers all of the traumatic incidents needed-

Lured along with several other Enforcers to a burning building with a fake child's voice by Jinx shortly before she blows it up. She is the only survivor: S1 E4 13:29- Sequence begins

Shoots Sevika repeatedly to save Vi's life. More than likely the first time she has ever discharged her weapon at a living person. It doesn't matter the reason or justification, violence impacts you emotionally. S1 E5 5:28- Sequence begins

Survives escaping Silco and his addict/goons deep in the undercity including dodging a collapsing building. S1 E6 13:16- Sequence begins

Meets Jinx for the first time. Has weapon pointed at her. Then survives fight with Firelights. S1 E6 7:05- Sequence begins

Leader of The Enforcers shoots Ekko, and is about to shoot her while several of her peers stand and watch. Shortly after Jinx blows up the bridge, killing almost everyone, then attacks Caitlyn & Vi both intentionally trying to kill them.S1 E7 10:41- Sequence begins

Kidnapped by Jinx from the shower of her childhood home. She is nude at the time. At some point Jinx makes her dress in Enforcer uniform. S1 E8 4:35- Sequence begins *It seems like recent sources from the artbook confirm Jinx held Caitlyn for an entire day but I don't have that in front of me to confirm so we can call it speculation*

She is held bound and gagged and forced to participate in Jinx's Dinner Party: S1 E9 12:55- Sequence begins

- Listens to Jinx try and convince Vi to murder her - Manages to get free and has a gun on Jinx. Spares her at Vi's urging and gets knocked out - Jinx kills Caitlyn's mother, two other councilors, maims 2 others, and destroys the council chamber

8. Survives attack on her mother and other councilor's memorial by Zaun: S2 E1 16:26- Sequence begins

9. Survives operation of Task Force into Zaun: S2 E3 beginning of episode:

Now I know what you are probably thinking. But As I said earlier we need to remember that violence leaves a mark on you. We aren't talking fault or any of that right now. I'm just talking what state of mind is she in. So I'm sure reasonably you can see how at the very least a few days of urban combat would be raising her stress, aggression, fear and all of that.

10. Survives events of Ventilation chamber: S2 E3 18:51 sequence begins

- Survives fight with Sevika - After holding her shot for Vi the first time, Vi blocks her shot the second time and she is denied what she sees as justice (again, just suspend judgement and try to only think of impact on her state of mind)

That, is a tremendous amount of violence and death in a relatively short amount of time. Now, I don't know about you. But to me, that all seems like it may impact a persons behavior and decision making until they have time to heal and to grieve properly.

Conclusion- Mentally and emotionally Caitlyn is totally destroyed having had no time or opportunity to heal from a long series of violent, destabilizing, and immensely traumatic events.

Caitlyn & Jinx-

So the last list was more comprehensive, but we also need to discuss Caitlyn & Jinx. Why? I mean Jinx is what this all boils down to. She's the monster in Caitlyn's mind. She discusses it with Jayce, and we see it when the strike team attacks the arcade and Caitlyn shoots at what she thinks is Jinx in a wide-eyed and manic state. I'm not going to re-list everything but just think about it.

Jinx has almost killed Caitlyn repeatedly, she killed several Enforcers Caitlyn knew as people. She abducted Caitlyn naked from her home. Caitlyn spared her and Jinx killed her mother. Hate Caitlyn, call her every name in the book, label her anything you please. But if you are discussing and acting in good faith, these facts are not in dispute.

Conclusion- Caitlyn is going into this facing down someone she is very likely terrified of, and hates with all of her heart.

Caitlyn & Vi-

As you correctly point out Caitlyn and Vi are romantically linked and working together in their pursuit of Jinx. However, there is some helpful context when analyzing this situation I think should be considered:

Jinx is Vi's little sister.

Caitlyn had Jinx at gun point and did not fire because Vi begged her. Then Jinx killed her mother.

Caitlyn asked Vi to wear the enforcer badge being honest about her fear, and Vi said yes willingly. But the Enforcers still killed Vi's parents.

Before their first kiss that you mention, we see Caitlyn being uncharacteristically aggressive with an unarmed Heenot. It is bad enough to the point that Vi takes her aside and after asking to dismiss the other team members, tearfully asks Caitlyn to promise she won't change.

Vi tells to Caitlyn she is ready for it all to end, and tells Caitlyn to take the shot if she gets the chance.

Conclusion- Caitlyn and Vi go after Jinx with the both of them knowing Vi begged Caitlyn to show mercy and now Caitlyn's mother is dead, and that Vi is wearing the badge of her parents killers to try and make things right. Caitlyn is clearly losing herself to the violence and anger of everything going on, and before the confrontation Vi tells Caitlyn she knows it has to end. Not exactly simple or casual.

The Incident Itself:

So the fight goes down, and as you said it eventually comes down to Caitlyn demanding that Vi move while Vi refused to do so due to the danger to Isha. You do make a point of mentioning the shooter (Caitlyn) not being in the best mental state (which I think we have established is like saying its a tad windy in the middle of a tornado), and then we move to the aftermath where it goes down like you describe:

Caitlyn is upset with Vi for blocking the shot

Vi insists she shouldn't have had to stop Caitlyn due to the danger to the child

Caitlyn states that she thought Vi was different but she isn't. "It's her blood in your veins":

Stopping here for a moment. This was not a statement of prejudice against Zaun. She is comparing Vi to Jinx, not all of the Undercity. I can back this up with the following points:

The entire quote (S2 E3 begins 10:47) "I keep telling myself that you're different. But you're not. It's her blood in your veins".

This is quite clearly one continuing statement from Caitlyn. She specifically compares Vi to Jinx. Not to Zaunites or anyone else. Just Jinx.

Vi then responds (S2 E3 10:39) "Then why are you the one acting like her?".

This entire thing is all centered around Jinx in the dialogue and obviously linked narratively. It isn't about Zaunites in general.

4. I covered Vi's response above so from there, Vi grabs Caitlyn as she is leaving, shifts her grip to a less aggressive place, then after several seconds Caitlyn hits her.

5. Caitlyn shows clear regret before leaving:

Overall conclusion for the incident itself:

As I said, this is the overall picture you give of this incident with the amount of context and detail you included:

But when you actually take the entire picture into account, this wildly differs from the actual events of the show.

Caitlyn is dealing with ENORMOUS amount of unresolved trauma

Jinx is the central focus of Caitlyn's rage and fear

Vi and Caitlyn care for each-other deeply, but between them is:

A- Vi being Jinx's older sister B- Vi begged Caitlyn for Jinx's life and Jinx killed Caitlyn's mother C- Enforcers killed Vi's parents and Caitlyn asked her to put on the badge D- Their first kiss is in the wake of Vi being afraid of how Caitlyn is changing from all of the violence and death around them

Caitlyn is clearly out of control when Vi is trying to stop her from shooting-

A- Caitlyn fires twice with Vi in the way even striking her gauntlet once B- Caitlyn just keeps saying the same thing over and over "Move.. She's not getting away again!"

As far as the dialogue only goes they both say something terrible in the aftermath-

A- Caitlyn tells Vi she is no different than Jinx. Knowing the guilt and horror Vi feels over what her sister has become. The guilt over Caitlyn's mother. And that Vi put on the badge to follow her on this mission. B- Vi tells Caitlyn she is acting like Jinx. Knowing full well Jinx almost killed Caitlyn repeatedly. Abducted her. And killed her mother

Not that it excuses or makes it okay. But Caitlyn shows clear remorse after hitting Vi.

Wrap Up:

Please understand, this is not about saying it was okay for Caitlyn to hit Vi. Far from. But as I said in response to that first post, we can't even get to that because of situations like this. The unfortunately simplistic version of events you provided completely misrepresents what actually occurred. It isn't about justification. Caitlyn hitting Vi cannot be justified. But it is about proper understanding based on what actually occurred. And not excluding or simplifying things to serve the purpose of demonizing her beyond what is reasonable. Let's take a look at your wrap up points-

1. Recap that they were on good terms and kissed before the fight Caitlyn growing steadily more angry and violent while dynamic between she and Vi was extremely complex 2. "The Violence had already wound down"- You elaborate on Jinx and friends already being gone and that it was no longer life or death. True the fight was over. But Caitlyn was still operating at a ten emotionally and mentally, it takes time for you to come down from that state.

3. You make a point showing Vi wasn't going to hit Caitlyn, elaborating that it was not a fight, but assault

Totally agree, not sure where this is coming from, I guess some people have suggested it or something?

4. "The show never acknowledges this"

Just because you don't consider it enough doesn't mean it didn't happen 5. "Caitlyn never apologizes for hitting Vi or leaving her. They just move straight to sex"

Caitlyn makes amends repeatedly through her deeds rather than her words:

Helps to save Vander

When Vi is wounded and Jinx is exposed she doesn't even look at Jinx, runs to save Vi instead

Keeps Jinx in the bunker rather than Stillwater, and holds off on any judgement until Vi is awake even though she could have taken her revenge and no one in Piltover would have cared

Moves the guards away so Vi can free Jinx if she chooses. Even knowing Vi may leave and Caitlyn would never see her again

*VI initiated their sex scene. Caitlyn even interrupted to make sure she was honest about Maddie*

Your last line asks the following question: "You see why this leaves a bad impression?"

My answer is yes. But it is one born of a gross over-simplification of the events leading to this moment and exclusion of anything challenging the clear anti-Caitlyn bias in your writing.

Comparing Season One Caitlyn Against Season Two

Alrighty last one I promise. So this whole post comparing your feelings about Caitlyn in season 1 to season 2. Fairly cut and dry in terms of concept. Lets look at some things you acknowledge about Caitlyn in season 1:

"Shes genuine. I never once doubted in season 1 that she had good intentions"

"She believed in justice and was ignorant to the system that pushes her family forward while pushing others down and when she's confronted with this she's defensive about it"

"Her arc is learning about the oppression the system Piltover installed was bad and wanted change to help those in the undercity"

You then acknowledge her arc did not complete in season one and that you and many others expectation was to see she and Vi forge a new path for Piltover. So lets look at your observations regarding Caitlyn in season two:

"Caitlyn looses her mom and bam, facism and dictatorship!"

"We can't let the privileged girl face consequences!"

"Grief is not an excuse for what she did"

"She gassed and used nuclear warfare against the defenseless in Zaun"

"What she and Jinx did were two different things" you clarify below:

- "Jinx did what she did because of the oppression of Topside. Everything happened because of the class problems of Piltover" - "But Caitlyn? Yes loosing a parent figure is bad, but Caitlyn proved that those were anti topside: Jinx, Sevika, and Silco were right. The police brutality, the abuse of power, the gassing the city, everything".

6. "She gets no consequences. No, her loosing an eye wasn't a consequence for her becoming a dictator. That happened because she betrayed Ambessa. And even if it was, loosing an eye is not equal to what she did. Caitlyn got to walk away scot free. She got to go back to her mansion with Vi"

Response:

Okay, first off lets get this clarified. What you observed about the hard swing in Caitlyn's trajectory was correct. It was also the point. We already listed the long list of things that happen to Caitlyn piling up higher and higher that lead to her breaking point. Then this happens. So yes, her season two arc swings hard from what we were expecting. I suspect if you were almost murdered repeatedly, abducted, spared the woman who did those things and then watched her kill your mother you might also have some chaotic emotions and mental health for a while.

Now to keep things simple lets just go point by point, so my number 1 corresponds with your number 1 regarding season 2. Pretty simple.

1. Well as we have stated now in full and fleshed out detail there is immensely more to it than losing her mother. You make no mention of the manipulations and actions of Ambessa Medarda in Caitlyn's arc but I'm not detailing all of that. This is already too long. I'll link those docs at the end should you want to read them. It should also be noted Caitlyn is neither a fascist or a dictator. The elite of Piltover agree to declare Martial Law, and they agree to Caitlyn as commander. We can do the whole technical definition of both if you really need me to but I don't think that's needed right now. 2. Caitlyn faces a variety of consequences but you repeat yourself so I'll say more for number 6

3. Agreed. Grief is no excuse. As we have now shown conclusively, it goes so far beyond just grief. But also as we have discussed it is not about excusing anything. It is about understanding. And there can be no understanding as long as we are unwilling to look at her story honestly.

4. Regarding the nuclear warfare comment I apologize. I'm not meaning to be rude, but I have absolutely no clue what you are referencing and therefore cannot give that a thorough response. Regarding the gas, no she didn't. They used The Grey targeting the chem-barons and their soldiers. This was confirmed by Amanda Overton (who I know many of you disregard, but she was one of the creators like it or not), and there is no evidence to the contrary. This does include clearing the area of civilians to keep them out of the fighting. While it is true anything gas based cannot be absolutely contained, there is a tremendous difference between being specific and controlled in their use, versus just letting it loose all over. The imagery showing people running in the streets is from two sources: A- Cassandra Kiramman's files when Caitlyn is learning about The Grey: It's clearly old, with a faded old parchment sort of look to it. The building and the clothes are all different as well. B- The hellfire video- Let's actually look at this:

"We used The Grey to clear the streets! To keep people safe!"

Sound familiar? That's what Vi tells Jinx. You may notice those people are up, and running. They aren't on their backs choking. They are hunting armed criminals with access to Shimmer, and a terrorist who likes to blow things up. Clearing the area seems prudent.

And in case you have seen any of those posts regarding the "scenes they deleted to make Caitlyn look better" Hellfire isn't a pro-Caitlyn propaganda moment in the show. They aren't glamorizing her here. Look at some of the lyrics:

Can I do the right thing for the wrong reason? Is it bad that I'm making friends with my demons, and Living by a couple deadly sins Just to make sure I finish what you began

Does it seem like they are portraying this as a good thing? No. This whole sequence is Caitlyn losing herself. Giving in more to her rage and her pain and surrendering her values in the pursuit of "justice". But lying and exaggerating don't help anything. They only divert attention away from the true meaning of the narrative.

And before we move on lets just get this out of the way. There is no evidence that short term exposure to The Grey harms anyone long term. While there is an abundance of evidence to suggest it does not. We can speculate til the cows come home about what might happen. But at the end of the day this is fiction, and The Grey does not exist. What's accurate is what we are shown is accurate.

5. Well as we have discussed repeatedly Caitlyn's motivations are immensely more complicated and involved than grief over her mother.

Regarding Jinx, this is it's own topic and one I've written on fairly recently. I'll link that here as well. But let's take a quick look here at her actions regardless of motivation:

Lit a building on fire, lured in several enforcers including Caitlyn using a fake child's voice and then blew it up to steal hex tech. Killed everyone but Caitlyn.

Killed countless Firelights.

Attacked the bridge killing several people (Marcus and clearly proven corrupt Enforcers no big loss) but then attacked and actively tried to kill Caitlyn and Vi.

Blew herself up and almost killed Ekko after he stopped fighting

Abducted Caitlyn nude from her home, dressed her in her Enforcer uniform, held her close to a day.

Bound and gagged Caitlyn and made her listen while Jinx tried to convince Vi to murder her.

After Caitlyn spared her life, Jinx knocked her out. She then proceeded to kill Caitlyn's mother, two other councilors, main 2 more, injure at least Viktor and I'm sure other's we don't see, and destroy the chamber. The fall out of this attack opens the door for Piltover retaliation bringing it down on Zaun.

Unleashes The Grey all over Piltover.

If you want to give Jinx a free pass for all of that because of Piltover, I'm afraid you and I cannot agree.

Regarding proving Silco and Sevika right. These supposed champions of Zaun:

Directly and intentionally killed Vander, Grayson and Benzo

Caused the deaths of Mylo and Claggor by taking Vander

Tried to kill Vi

Silco was quite possibly about to kill Powder before she hugged him

They unleash Shimmer on their people. A proven dangerous, addictive drug that mutates its users and can turn them into monsters.

"anti-topside" Silco pays corrupt top-side cops to hunt and kill Firelights for opposing him

Regarding Silco: He promised Jinx and Vi's mother to make a safer Zaun for the then unborn Vi. He tried to kill Vi on the steps of Felicia and Conal's dilapidated home, using destitute Zaunites hooked on the drug he flooded the lanes with.

Regarding Sevika: She knew those kids the entire time they were with Vander. As stated, she plays a part in Vander's death leading to the deaths of Mylo and Claggor, tries to kill Vi repeatedly, and even though she helped orphan Jinx the second time she clearly and intentionally messes with her head in hopes Silco will cast Jinx out.

6. Regarding formal consequences, such as the law or something. As stated Martial Law and by extension Caitlyn was all agreed to by the Piltover elite and totally lawful within the bounds of this universe. Caitlyn's actions didn't actually violate real-world standards either (I've checked) but it's important to remember this isn't the real world. She can't be held to account for violating the Geneva convention in a world with no Geneva.

Regarding consequences in the story she absolutely did. We only see her for a brief moment after defeating Ambessa but her injuries were horrendous. With her power and resources, Caitlyn could have fled if she chose. No one could make her fight. Instead she fought on the front line and faced Ambessa, and sacrificed her eye, and almost her life. And that is to say nothing of the immense mental/emotional trauma of everything that has occurred.

If you aren't counting any of that because she chose to take that risk, I'll say this.

How did we reach the point where someone subjecting themselves to harm to make things right, isn't as righteous as watching them be forced to? It sounds to me like you loved Caitlyn as long as she wasn't affected by anything she went through.

WRAP UP:

This is insanely long. I do apologize for that but I knew it was going to be going in. Responding to multiple posts in one just comes out that way. I totally understand if you just TLDR and move on with your life. But if you do respond , I look forward to your thoughts.

Below as promised I will link my docs reference to the manipulations of Ambessa Medarda and Maddie Nolan on Caitlyn, as well as my recent post regarding Jinx and her motivations. Thank you.

Ambessa Medarda's Manipulation & Control

Maddie Nolan's Manipulation & Control

Jinx was never fighting her oppressor