#i don't care about Shadowlands lore

[athame-san]

Fallen angel Sylvanas

[mikaila-orchard]

How to fix Shadowlands.

So awhile back, I made a post on how to fix BFA which I largely still stand by. I mentioned possibly doing a followup for Shadowlands as it was the culmination of all the bad decisions Blizz made in BFA prior and over two years later, I'm keeping that promise.

1. Fixing the setting.

The Shadowlands themselves are going to have to get perhaps the biggest overhaul. First and foremost, we're nixing everything to do with the First Ones. Zerith Mortus is fucking out. The idea that all the dieties are 3d printed robots? Also out. In their place, we're gonna have it that Titan traveled to the realm of death in an attempt to bring Order™ to the place Mortal Souls go. They created Oribos to organize the souls based on deeds and nature, Bastion where they put the souls to work upholding the grand vision, Revendreth to 'rehabilitate' discordant souls, and the Maw for those deemed too undesirable. And naturally, they left keepers here to oversee everything, including Kyrestia, Denathrius and Zovaal.

Also, yes. This means that Domination magic is Death magic + Titan magic, which is honestly very fitting.

What about Maldraxxus and Ardenweald, M'kay?

Well, we're nixing Maldraxxus because it's awful. But more importantly, Ardenweald is going to represent what the Shadowlands were before the Titans swooped in. It's a safe haven for mortal souls who don't prescribe to the Titans ideals, like the trolls and the Night elves. Loa, Wild Gods and Elune all have a presence there and are crucial in saving the Titan Realms from the mess they made for themselves.

2. Fixing Zovaal

This one's surprisingly easy. First, we stick with Zovaal's look in the concept art because it's way cooler and the Primus has been written out of this version anyway. This is what the Progenitor of the Lich King should look like.

Second, we fix his motivation. Rather than trying to reforge all of reality which is a goal the lore had to break itself in half to give him, we're gonna give him the same motivation as all the other cosmic forces. Dominion over Azeroth's world soul.

So everything from giving the Scourge to the Legion to disrupting the machine of death to pull all those souls into the Maw to the veil being shattered above Icecrown, all of it is done so that Zovaal has a clear shot to channel enough death magic through the Forge of Souls, straight to the core until Azeroth emerges as an entity of Death and Domination. This keeps the stakes ceiling on par with expansions like Legion rather than trying to one up it like a tryhard.

3. Fixing Sylvanas (MOST IMPORTANT)

Fortunately, since we already fixed BFA, most of the work has already been done for us in terms of characterization. We just have to tweak a few things.

Firstly, we're going to make her the hero of this expansion leading the fight against Zovaal while Bolvar is going to be his lackey, as was set up back in Legion. We keep the fight on Icecrown, we keep Sylvanas shattering the Helm. But this time, Bolvar is going to retreat to his master, having been long since been swayed by him. And Sylvanas is going to take the fight to the Maw rather than trying to run from it as she had been since Edge of Night.

To better focus on this task, she names Baine Warchief and names Nathanos regent of the Forsaken, trusting them to handle things on Azeroth while she wages war against the Jailer.

Also, to no one's surprise, the whole split soul thing is getting completely scrapped. I don't care if there was a clever way to do it. It's just not worth it as a story beat. The Sylvanas we've spent 22 years getting to know is the Sylvanas. Full stop.

And there we are. That's all you need to change to make the story work. Everything else, you can keep. Wanna keep Anduin becoming Zovaal's discord kitten? Go right ahead. Wanna keep Torghast? Sure. Wanna keep the Dreadlords being Denathrius' little bitches? Sure. Just stick to these three reworks and you'll have a good expac.

[cinderflower]

❤️💛 and 🤍 for elden ring!

I don't know what's going on with the emojis in the original post, but I'm going to assume the top one is the red heart and my browser just doesn't want to render it ❤️: Which character do you think is the most egregiously mischaracterized by the fandom?

A question with so many answers especially after the inconceivable damage the dlc did to so many characters, but I'm actually going to answer this with Godwyn because I personally think Godwyn has been the most mischaracterized for the longest and is the most pervasive.

I think Godwyn suffers from martyr idolization and so many people get hung up on all the gestures and item descriptions made to commemorate him after his death that they don't reflect on the actual actions his character took while alive. He gets so often portrayed as this deeply kind, peaceful dove of a character who did no wrong and I think that's simply not true. I do think he was kind but very conditionally so because you can't be a peaceful dove when you're raised by two of the most notorious genocidal warmongerers and are actively complicit in their regime. It would be one thing if there was anything in the lore that pointed to him going against the Golden Order in any capacity, but if anything no one represents the Golden Order better than Godwyn and I strongly believe his role in the dragon war was him leading the Golden Order in a new direction. I think it was his influence and guidance that moved the Golden Order away from war with the outcome being genocide to war with the outcome being assimilation. Sure he and Fortissax made peace, but make no mistake that the peace was shown in the game to be built on the violence of assimilation and erasure of the draconic culture. Red incantations disguised as gold. Dragons taking on humanoid forms. A resounding capitulation by the ancient dragons to the rulership of the Golden Order, doomed to live in the shadows of history and their former glory. This happens again with the Carians. They rebelled against the Golden Order but rather than a war of attrition until they're wiped out, there's an olive branch extended instead. Radagon marries Rennala and now, especially with Ranni as an Empyrean, the Carian lineage is nothing more than an extension of the Golden Order.

It's also for that reason I don't believe he had any sort of real brotherly relationship with Mohg and Morgott. At most I believe he would have tolerated them, maybe pitied them, but I don't think he would have truly accepted them. There's nothing in the game to give any indication of that either given they were kept shackled in captivity in the sewers with all the other outcasts and rejects of the Golden Order all the way up until the Shattering. Did he care about the twins? Maybe, I think it was more likely he was sympathetic to them because they were both Empyreans, I think he probably tried to help them growing up, but I think he ultimately would have sided against them and their vision to tear down the Golden Order.

💛: What is a popular ship you just can't get behind, and why?

Miquella/Radahn content is a block on sight for me, but I feel like that's not exactly the most unpopular opinion. I'll build on the point above and go with Godwyn/Messmer which has become shockingly prevalent recently and I just ???????

I think it largely comes from how the timeline works in my head and the absolute nightmare of conflicting lore the dlc introduced. I don't think they ever met, I don't think they interacted ever in the timeline, because I don't think Godwyn was born until the Golden Order was established in full and I don't think the Golden Order was established until after the shadow lands were locked away with the birth of the Erdtree as we know it in the game. Also the journey to the shadowlands has to be a one-way journey for any of the dlc lore to work at all because otherwise why would Miquella need Mohg's body????? So it's not like Messmer could just pop into the Lands Between or vice versa. Maybe Marika can go back and forth because she's God but everyone else? One place or the other.

Plus I think ideologically they'd be complete opposite and they'd never see eye to eye. Messmer represents the "old" version of the Golden Order, with excessive violence and genocide, carrying it all out in Marika's name. Godwyn represents the "new" version of the Golden Order, with a focus on peace through assimilation. Not to mention there'd be the deep jealousy and resentment of Godwyn for being the golden child.

Maybe as a hate ship, but I personally don't see it being one formed on any sort of genuine affection. 🤍: Which character is not as morally bad as everyone else seems to think?

I was initially very tepid towards Ranni as a character, but honestly the more I engaged with her character while writing FoR over the years, the more I will stand as a diehard supporter. Other than the Night of the Black Knives we really don't ever see her acting in a violent capacity and she genuinely does seem to want to break the oppressive stranglehold of the Golden Order over the Lands Between. And she's right. The Golden Order effectively destroyed the Carian lineage with the Radagon marriage. Her mother's mind was utterly destroyed by him through the egg in the separation. The Academy attempted to coup them (and with no help from the Golden Order? hm???). The list goes on.

[modeus-the-misanthrope]

Salty modeus moment.

Ever since the DLC fumbled the retcon that was Miquella, while having cut content in the files showing the Gloam Eyed Queen was gonna get...something more than nothing in the Shadowlands...

I sincerely don't care about talking lore anymore. I would sincerely be more willing to hear out the lore for the fan-bosses in the Convergence mod than the games actual lore now.

This realization was brought to me by my reaction to watching one of Zullie the Witch's newer Elden Ring videos. My internal reaction being, "That's not a hint. That was just the devs being lazy about patching a bugged texture."

[cat-mermaid]

@modeus-the-unbound made this great post:

They put into words something that has sat in my brain but I didn't know how to address it, so now I do:

THIS

YES

THIS DAMMIT

Even after Miq sheds off all of his parts, and even after using Mohg to further his goals, I’ve still always thought that the Miquella we see at the end of the game is the best damn leader the Lands Between/Shadow Lands could have even gotten

I’M EVEN COOL WITH MIQUELLA TRYING TO STEAL MY CHARACTER’S HEART AND HAVE ME JOIN HIM, THAT SOUNDS DOPE AS FUCK

“Divinity is a cage!” who is caging him if the GW is gone? What is this cage? Why is it bad? Why is it so bad that it would be better for him to be dead then continue on as a god who wants to save us all from the consequences of his mom’s actions?

“Becoming a god means he’ll be beyond saving and forgiveness!” FROM WHAT TRINA, FROM WHAT. If she would to elaborate just a little more, saying something like what Gandalf said in LOTR about the one ring, how though he himself would try using it for good, it would end up corrupting him and make him a monster?

If Trina had just said a little something along the lines of-

EVEN THE MOST NOBLE SELFLESS SOULS WILL BECOME CRUEL AND UNYIELDING UPON GAINING THE MANTEL OF GODHOOD. MIQUELLA WILL BECOME A MONSTER GREATER THAN THOU CAN IMAGINE

-OR WHATEVER THEN I MIGHT BE DOWN TO PUT MIQUELLA DOWN LIKE OL YELLER

in past fromsoft games, I’ve always accepted the vagueness of the plot and the lack of answers, because at no point in demon/darksouls/bloodborne does anyone ask the question “how did this happen” everyone is just living in the moment and you are just plopped into and given a goal, your character and the characters around you aren’t trying to solve anything, just to obtain somthing

but the thing is that in Elden Ring, we are given way more plot and character backstory about NPCs(specifically Marika and the Demigods) then the past games, and thus we’ve become way more invested in them then characters like Gehrman, Lady Maria, Annalise, Micolash or Eileen the Crow

we the player haven gotten so much lore about the Demi gods, especially Miquella, that care about their destinies, their goals and their success/failure.

You think I cared about anyone in Dark Souls 3? Not really because we don't get any really deep interactions with many of its denizens. ALSO that world was pretty doomed, no real saving it.

You think I cared about anyone in Bloodborne? Kinda but most of them died right away and ALSO That world was SO doomed unless you became an infant great one.

In Elden Ring we’re told Miquella is the equivalent to Jesus/Buddha, and that he has the potential to mend this world, set it right and make it a better place for everyone. We’re disappointed when we see that he’s just ended up in a cocoon in the end, withered up and old because Mohg seemly fucked up his attempt to fix his body and ruined the haligtree plan

But when we the player find out that in the dlc Miquella is actually fine and wandering the Shadowlands, trying to get the to gates of divinity and ascend so he can right his mom’s wrongs? HOLY SHIT YES!

Previous fromsoft games have never done this kind of thing, usually every character meets their tragic end and thats it! No hope, no second chances.

So thats why I think it hurt the fanbase so much to go through that emotional roller coaster only to be told at the end oh lol you have to kill him now its for his own good yeah the sleepy gal said so

All it leaves is a sense of bafflement, bitterness and disappointment. Being a Fromsoft game, maybe thats wat they were going for

(what am I saying its Fromsoft, of course thats wat they were going for lol)

[hetalia-club]

GOT Lore- House Greyjoy

Other Houses: Targaryen Stark Greyjoy Lannister Tyrell

GOT vocab for non watchers/readers-

The Drowned God Religion- The Religion of the Iron-born people and the Greyjoy family. He's the creator of the sea and the Iron-born are his children. So They serve the sea. For how violent and sadistic teh Iron-born people are they are also extremely religious. They believe you have to die at sea in order to 'walk his watery halls and feast with him for eternity' They are actually terrified of not dying at sea. They don't travel too far inland because of that fear of dying so far away from teh seat that their souls couldn't make it back there. People who follow this religion often say "What is dead may never die" Which goes so hard. The full prayer is. "What is dead may never die but, rises again harder and stronger" which is so sick honestly. Salt Wife- Iron-born people believe in polygamy. At different ports they may have a totally other family. They don't have to have one and how many Salt wives you have does not dictate how much of a man you are. It's purely by choice. However there are rules you NEVER mix your Salt Wives with your Rock Wife. Your Rock Wife is your wife that lives in the Iron-Islands. Your main squeeze. She and her children ALWAYS come first! That being said if you took a Salt wife and couldn't provide for them completely You would be made fun of and mocked. And someone else would most likely take your Salt Wife as a power play and provide for her instead. So they if they have more than one family they have to be able to provide for them. Asshai- A mysterious city at the far corner of the world filled with magic Shadowlands- what lies beyond Asshai. a land where it is always night. the grass grows as tall as a man and is white as a ghost. This land is full of strange monsters, magic, wild dragons and strange religions. But the people who live there are very wealthy due to seemingly never ending gems. Dothraki- The Dothraki are a people who live in the great grass lands across the sea. They are a feared nomadic people who have a way of life similar to the Iron-born, just on land. They are actually terrified of the sea. The Dothraki are called horse Lords. They live and die at horse back. They fear any water their horses can't drink. They don't even have a word for Ocean or boat in their language. They would just call it poison water and wooden horses if they were to call it anything at all. They have a religion that follows nature they pray to the Great Stallion who rides in the sky in the stars. Horses are their whole life. They eat them, sell them, befriend them. They follow hoards of wild horses to grass and water. there is a mutual respect between the Dothraki people and Horses. They travel in groups called a Khalasar. They have no problems slaughtering an entire village of people if you don't give them what they want. But if a Khalasar comes to your town and they say they want your sheep just give them the sheep and they will happily be on their way and will not bother you anymore. They’re going to end up with them either way so it’s best to just hand it over.

House Greyjoy lore for non GOT watchers- The Greyjoy's are the Lords of the Iron Islands their castle is called Pyke and sits on top a crashing waves and crumbling pillars. the castle has seen better days but they could care less about that The people of the Iron Islands are a sea people. They spend basically their entire lives on a ship being pirates and general nuisances to bay towns. The don't follow the rules of the eldest son rules no matter what. They follow who's strong. They put it to a vote and whoever wins gets to be in charge. The Greyjoy house is my FAVORITE house hands down. There is so much interesting lore and customs they have that I could talk about all day but I'll do my best to keep it brief. The iron-born people live life doing for themselves and only themselves. They don't believe in currency. How much gold you earn is nothing to the Iron-born people. They deal in paying the 'iron price'. The iron price is something that you stole. So it means nothing if you did not steal it. No one cares if you went out and bought your wife a diamond necklace. They would laugh at you. Now if you stole that necklace, they would be impressed by that (as impressed as these people get which is not at all). They would at least respect the hustle. They are pirates. They call themselves pirates. They fight other Pirates at sea, they go across the ocean to trade with the lands beyond, trading slaves and things they stole for food since their Island is mostly rocks and does not grow much of anything. They rely on taking it or trading for it. they would never buy it. They don't make deals for lands or trade (unless they go to a trade port for just that). They TAKE what they want. The Iron-born don't ask for things. If they see it, they like it, they want it, they got it. An Iron born wants to marry your daughter? Oh we'll he'll actually just go and kidnap her he's not going to ask you for her hand. An Iron-born notices you have a bunch of sheep this year. Will they try and trade you for- NO! They'll just go and take them. Granted this rule does get broken from time to time and is conditional. Like if winter is coming and they don’t have enough food stored up they would probaly trade some ships for gold and then go buy food. They wouldn’t like it but they would rather do that than starve to death. If war is coming and they needed an alliance they would try and barter something for an alliance. They are cocky but not completely stupid. Alright I got to stop or I'll never quit.

^^ Concept Art for Castle Pyke Greyjoy Family Tree

Typical House Traits From The Books Description: Tall, Attractive, Nice Smiles, Dark Hair, Dark Eyes.

Birth order- Berwald, Antonio, Abel, Tino & Arthur

Arthur Greyjoy- Arthur is the youngest son of the former Lord of Pyke. His father died at sea...Well he died IN the sea. There is a rumor that Arthur pushed his father over a bridge when he was starting to get old and frail. But even if he did, who cares. He was old and sick anyways and couldn’t even sail anymore. Arthur was quickly voted the next Lord of the Iron-Islands. He's know far and wide for his pillaging and pirating. He has a large crew and a whole fleet of ships under his command. He's cocky, and stubborn but he's also very crafty and has a soft-ish side for those who manage to see it (mostly just one Stark girl) . His father struck a deal with the Stark family long ago that if they didn't pillage in the North then Arthur would marry Lord Basch's youngest daughter Amelia. Securing the North as an ally against their war at the time against the Lannisters. Well When his father died, Arthur quickly went to pillaging the North so Lord Stark withdrew their engagement. Annoyed by having something taken from him that he actually kind of wanted he just went ahead and took her anyway. Now the North & West are on the verge of war because he refuses to give her back. Since Amelia was promised to Lovino Tyrell after her betrothal to Arthur was terminated. (also she doesn't want to go back and wasn't actually kidnapped it was like a planned mutual thing but was staged to look more like a kidnapping to save face.)((Sorry that his was long he is teh main character of my AU lol)) Berwald Greyjoy- The Oldest son of the former Lord and Oldest brother of Arthur. He's a very quiet and intimidating man. He does not say much of anything but when he feels obligated to speak it's normally very insightful. He helps his brother with strategy. He is the captain of his own ships but he has a silent rule meaning no one is allowed to talk unless there is a battle going on. He does not like the sound of people talking and will cut your tongue out if you violate his rule. He’s very serious about it. Tino Greyjoy- The second youngest son. On the opposite side of Berwald there is Tino, he’s a bit of a party animal. Rum, parties, whores you name it. He'll take his ships and be gone for months at a time and when he comes back he always has some colorful stories to tell from his time in Asshai & the shadow lands. He is fascinated by magic, dragons, witches and wizards.

Antonio Greyjoy- Antonio is the Salt son of the former Lord of Pyke. And is the Second oldest brother. His mother was a Dothraki woman who traveled with a Khalasar. He traveled with his Khalasar his entire life riding horses, shooting from horse back, raiding villages. That was until his father came back to port. His mother was taken by a neighboring Khalasar as a slave leaving him alone. The idea of his foreign fathers funny way of talking, metal clothes and 'wooden horses' that could travel across the poison water to a land with stone houses was too tantalizing to pass up and at 15 he went with his father across the sea back to Pyke. He was taught the common tongue and how to sail and he fit right in with his brothers. He never gave up his love of horse riding and still brings horses with him on his ship when he sails since he's most comfortable fighting from horseback. Antonio deals with all the trading with the Dothraki. The Dothraki also don’t believe in currency and only trade but they do get their hands on some quality supplies. Antonio knows them well, speaks the harsh complicated language fluently and knows where they go to trade and when. He has not lived in Westeros that long just a few years or so. He doesn't really know the language fully or understand the customs too well outside of the Iron Islands. So he doesn't have his own ships or crew nor does he really want one, he normally just goes with his little brother Arthur who he got pretty attached to right away. Since they both have their fathers green eyes accepting him as a brother came easier than the rest He is still a little afraid of the sea. He won’t touch it and still considers it poisonous. Though surprisingly his brothers do respect his fear and relate it to their fear of dying on dry land. Basically same sides of a different coin.

Abel Greyjoy- Abel is another Salt son of the Former Lord of Pyke. He's the third oldest son. His mother is a woman from Old Town. He has had a close relationship with his father and always got excited for his visits so he could tell him about all his pirating adventures and always wanted to look at all the gold and gems he found. His prized position is an emerald his father gave him as a birthday gift that he had imbedded into the handle of his sword. When he turned 7 he went to Pyke with his father to live saying goodbye to his mother for the time being. His mother now lives in the Iron Islands in a small cottage and he visits her often making sure she has everything she needs just as his father would have done.

[strangesmallbard]

have u ever shared the lore of torlynn's guardian/dream visitor? :O

i haven't yet! at least not directly—i have posted about the oc she looks like: torlynn's previous girlfriend, a human storm sorcerer/oath of the ancients paladin named thalia adrian, who died in terrible circumstances about a century ago. specifically, she's the version of thalia that torlynn first met. when she died, she was about 40 human years old.

those terrible circumstances happen to be extremely plot relevant! anyway, like many people, i always headcanon the guardian as someone significant in tav's life, either someone who previously guided them and/or haunts them. and thalia—and those terrible, plot-relevant circumstances of her death—haunt torlynn so so so much! especially awhen the party enters the shadowlands at the beginning of act 2 . eyes emoji.

something else important: in addition to all the cool things above, thalia is also a bhaalspawn. if you know bg1/bg2 lore and raised your eyebrows at thalia's last name, you are very correct: she's actually gorion's ward, the protagonist of the first two games. (i haven't gotten a chance to play them yet, so all my info is from various wikis. i definitely plan to, though!)

the full torlynn/thalia story has expanded into many rooms in my mind palace, so i'll put the rest under a read more for anyone interested haha.

HISTORY:

a century and a half before the events of bg3, torlynn was a high harper based in the sword coast. before that, she served the harpers since her early 100's, participating in multiple campaigns/adventure parties across faerûn for the next three centuries. a century and a half before the events of bg3, torlynn was a harper before she was anything or anyone else, wholly dedicated to the cause. she also took her leadership role very seriously and gave up most personal relationships as a result, even amongst fellow harpers. she also became more careful than the unreserved, reckless, hotheaded person she'd been in youth.

more important context: torlynn's mom was a powerful necromancer and well-known in her academic circles. back in the day, she'd do all sorts of necromantic experiments in the baldur's gate sewers, as so much weird shit happens there. including bhaalist cults every few centuries or so. when torlynn was still in school, her mom went missing down there and absolutely everyone stonewalled her when she tried to find out why, including her dad (shareholder at sorcerous sundries) and the flaming fist (who she briefly joinde after graduating wizard school). she eventually determines that bhaalists were involved, but never found any trace of her mom.

SO when sarevok causes problems on purpose in baldur's gate, torlynn is right in the thick of it for both harper reasons and personal reasons, pulled to the home that hadn't been home in a very, very long time. (frankly unsure if this counters bg1 canon but this is also my mind palace <3). and then she meets thalia: bright, kind, reckless, very chaotically good, and a bhaalspawn. and a sorcerer, which simply doesn't help matters regardless of how torlynn is a wizard who cannot stand the company of other wizards. (parents made her go to wizard school).

RELATIONSHIP:

they ummmm do not hit off right away. although torlynn very much believes in the harper tenets of Free Will and Liberty Over Systems, she's also a big fan of rules and organization and systems that facilitate free will. and, of course, breaking rules and systems that are stupid and don't make sense. (this all very wizard of her, but don't tell her that) (thalia tells her that, repeatedly). she also doesn't trust thalia's dark urge for very valid reasons. this all manifests in clashes that annoy everyone in the general vicinity. but this is a classic enemies-to-lovers, babey! they experience trials and tribulations, defeat thalia's loser brother, and fall very hard for each other.

their relationship is always a bit tumultous, as they don't stop clashing about the fundamentals. bhaal is also determined to make thalia succomb to her urge, meaning her bhaalspawn dreams get a lot worse around torlynn. but these bitches love each other! they're mutually obsessed! lesbian devotion > your shitty dad, every time. their differences are ultimately complements; torlynn grounds thalia, helping her perceive things like fantasy spreadsheets and consequences for your actions, while thalia helps torlynn find that balance between her Great Harper Responsibilities and like, having fun lmao. experiencing life to its fullest extent after spending her own protecting others. [insert a 50k relationship development fic here].

LET'S JUMP 20 YEARS:

in that time, thalia has also joined the harpers, albeit in a less formal capacity. she and torlynn spend half those years together and half apart as thalia 1) avoids murdering her, and 2) searches for other bhaalspawn across the realm, determined to save them from their urge. (she rarely succeeds. according to the wiki page for gorion's ward, something that sets gorion's ward apart from other bhaalspawn was their supportive upbringing, which very few have). at some point, they hear about a weird situation brewing beyond the mountain pass. some guy named ketheric is causing problems on purpose and shar is involved. can't be good.

and man, you know most of what happens next. the harpers join forces with the druids from the grove and together they defeat ketheric and his dark justiciars. in this version of the story, however, they almost lose. their forces have dwindled into nothing and help isn't on the way and torlynn's best ranger flew off the fucking handle and started torturing enemy scouts. one night, huddled under a tent, shar's darkness already clinging to every corner, thalia brings up a strategy they haven't considered. dire to be sure, but don't these people deserve every dire strategy we have left to give? aren't you always saying that to win, we must sometimes be willing to lose? torlynn says Under No Circumstances Are You Allowed to Do That. i will make sure you never have to do that.

thalia bristles; she hates when torlynn pulls rank. (when anyone pulls any type of rank). she doesn't say anything else because she doesn't want to get mean. torlynn is too terrified to say anything and too ashamed of her fear to talk about that either. so they don't talk again, not until that final battle when another fucking shadow squadron crests over the field and thalia Does Just That.

that being: assume her slayer form, succombing to the very urge she dedicated her entire life to fighting. and because the slayer's only motivation is Kill Everyone, there's only one way to stop her from turning on the harpers and the druids after the dark justiciars are all dead and gone. and torlynn makes sure she's the one to stop her. she owes that end to her. she wants to hold her one more time, even if what she's holding is a very scary creature with lots of pointy limbs.

AFTERMATH:

when the war is officially over, torlynn is not well. like fundamentally just had her belief in anything shaken and stirred and then exploded and also exploded again. she's dedicated her life to this cause and now the lands are cursed and thalia is dead, turned into the monster she hated. perhaps her mother was right about everything turning to rot, so you may as well use that rot to your own ends. except torlynn is bad at rotting, so she goes to bother her mother's god about getting her girlfriend back. but, well, thalia isn't with myrkul. she's with bhaal. and he's noooot letting her go so easily.

that's when torlynn loses that last grip on her previous life. she deserts the harpers, throws herself into necromantic research, and decides she's going to rescue thalia from bhaal if it's the last thing she does. she spends about 75 years doing this. and then something too complicated for this already too-long post happens that causes her to abandon this mission. winds up teaching 10-year-olds how to conjure ice at her old school in waterdeep, still adrift and bitter and mostly unwell. that's roughly her status quo until the nautiloid scoops her up from the road between waterdeep and baldur's gate.

CONCLUSION:

anyway! the emperor sees this big ball of noxious grief in torlynn's mind and is like Oh fuck yes a little bowl of seeds for me (perfect circumstances to manipulate the scary, highly-competent elf lady). he would have succeeded but torlynn has the power of friendship and gay sex with karlach on her side.

HEY, THEY KIND OF LOOK LIKE TALDER?

you got me there! torlynn kind of started out as an alder uber; i wanted to make an older lady oc who was both a magic user and some kind of military commander. besides their penchant for repression and the way grief is a huge part of their stories, torlynn wound up pretty different overall! thalia shares some physical traits with tally, but she's also taken a life of her own since that initial Haha Wouldn't It Be Funny If brainstorm. if anyone's interested i'm very happy to elaborate, but this is already too long LMAO. p.s. if you read the whole thing i love you

[gascon-en-exil]

Arthas Menethil

How I feel about this character

I have remarkably few feelings on most of WoW's lore characters even though I've been playing the game as long as I have, and I've only experienced Warcraft III indirectly because RTS isn't my style. Arthas is a fine enough deconstruction of a King Arthur figure, I suppose? As the Lich King he's one of the more menacing expansion main antagonists, and he pops up all over Northrend to be dramatic and evil...but even then that still doesn't quite beat the impression Deathwing left for reshaping the world and then flying through random zones to one-shot everyone unfortunate enough to be there.

All the people I ship romantically with this character

I don't care about Arthas/Jaina, and his thing with Uther is as flat as gay subtext in this setting tends to be. I guess people might be into some extreme hate sex dynamic with Sylvanas, but I'm not. His relationship with Ner'zhul as the Lich King had to have been pretty damn weird though.

My non-romantic OTP for this character

*shrugs*

My unpopular opinion about this character

I know some people don't like how Shadowlands disposed of Arthas's soul in service to a less interesting villain, but I didn't mind it too much - mostly because, again, I just never cared all that much about Arthas in the first place. I do like that it signals that Blizzard (probably) isn't going to resurrect Arthas somewhere down the line.

One thing I wish would happen / have happened with this character in canon

Not inherently about Arthas, but one missed opportunity that occurred to me regarding the nature of the Lich King back in WCIII up through Wrath was how it's more or less the fusion of an orc and a human, i.e. the two quintessentially warring races of the franchise. I don't think this is ever really remarked on anywhere, but it could have been used as a signal of the greater scope problems (literally) plaguing Azeroth and how the humans and orcs needed to get over their former enmity...not that that would ever happen long-term, of course, because WoW always needs its two opposing factions.

[katieskarlette]

I watched the trailers and read the Blizzcon '23 stuff on WoWhead.

Meh. Not the spark I was looking for to rekindle my passion for the game.

(Morose lack of enthusiasm for 11.0, and Shadowlands postmortem below.)

Instead of getting hyped for upcoming content, it just makes me feel bad about how little I care anymore.

I used to be on the edge of my seat, palms sweating, happily freaking out about new cinematics and new expansion releases. I would plan ahead and take time off to watch the Blizzcon livestream, and stock up on food I could eat while glued to the screen. Today I got home from work and turned on my computer...and only then remembered that Blizzcon was today. After seeing the trailers and stuff I'm like, "Okay. I guess that's fine. Whatever." [Garrosh voice] Times change. [/Garrosh voice]

I didn't expect the news about upcoming expansions to knock my socks off, though. If Dragonflight, an expansion that was practically custom-made to focus on my favorite lore, didn't rekindle my love for WoW, nothing was going to.

That said, I'm still underwhelmed. I can't say that Alleria, Thrall, and Magni are characters I'd be super excited to hang out with. (It was a nice touch to have Thrall going gray, though.)

Xal'atath (sp?) is pretty cool but forgive me for being wary considering the track record for female villains in this franchise.

Anduin...very mixed feelings there. I'm glad he's back, and it was nice to hear Josh Keaton's voice again. I don't recognize him physically anymore, except those baby blue eyes, which is probably why the cinematic spent so much time zoomed in uncomfortably close on his face. I get that that's the point, that he's grown up and gotten grizzled, but he looks and feels like a completely different person.

I think part of the problem is that we didn't get to see him changing. He went from dropping his sword to resurrect an army and being stubbornly optimistic in BFA, to weary but still full of the Light in the cutscenes with Sylvanas in Torghast, to completely blank (save one glimmer) while under Zovaal's domination, to this broken, unstable, self-loathing shell of a man in the 11.0 cinematic. Even if we're generous and count the tiny conversation with Sylvanas at the end of her novel, we have to just imagine what happened to him in between then and now. It's okay to ask the audience to fill in some implied developments, but this is jarring. (I suppose it's possible we'll see more characterization in-game between now and then. I'm not optimistic, though.)

I imagine Anduin will go through an arc where the Light comes back to him, or he finds some kind of peace again and reclaims his throne, but I don't have the patience to wait around for it to happen, or the confidence that it would be done well.

I also can't separate the character's angst with the real-world consequences of Shadowlands sucking as hard as it did. Yeah, Anduin, you've been through absolute hell--so have we. You haven't recovered--and neither have I.

When they had him do the "Arthas pointing Frostmourne just left of the camera lens" pose, instead of going "Ooh, I recognize that! That was cool!" it just reminded me of all the times they did fanservice callbacks to the Lich King in Shadowlands, only to shit all over that part of lore. That's the last thing I want to be reminded of.

It was a bold move to reveal the names and story hooks of the next two expansions, but rather than whet my appetite it just removed the hope that "maybe the next expansion will be better." Nope, it'll be more of the cosmic bullshit that I don't care about: Light, Void, Titans, etc. It's okay in small doses, but it's not the kind of story that pulled me in and made me fall in love with the world.

I hate to say it, but this might be the nail in the coffin for me. I definitely miss the glory days of WoW when it was a huge part of my life and I got so much enjoyment out of it, but I'm beginning to realize that those days aren't coming back. When I think of all the hours and dollars I invested in the franchise it makes me want to cry--not that I regret any of it. I just wish the spark hadn't gone out for me.

I had been so immersed for so many years that maybe it was just time for it to run its course. The social climate has also changed a lot for me, from a thriving guild during MoP, to sporadic bursts of people logging on in Legion and early BFA, to a ghost town in mid-to-late BFA and SL. Strangers can be rude and elitist, making pugging more stressful than fun. I've also been concentrating a lot on my own original writing in the last year.

Those are factors, to be sure, but I do have to lay a lot of the blame on Shadowlands. I had gotten past so-so expansions before. Cataclysm wasn't the best, but all the Firelands stuff was fun, and some of my favorite dragons got screen time. MOP was freaking fantastic. WoD was a dud expansion for me, but there was enough to keep me busy and playing right up to the end. Legion was awesome. BFA wasn't great, and the loss of Teldrassil left a very sour taste, but it had good leveling content, some fun characters, and generally enough stuff going on to tide me over. It was going in a pattern of great expansion, not-so-good expansion, great expansion, not-so-good expansion, and that was okay.

Then Shadowlands came, and it was grimdark, overly serious, cosmic-scale stuff, headed by the most aggressively boring villain the series had ever had. There were a ton of new characters, and, except for Denathrius, Renathal, and Theotar (and Merileth and his slimes, in small doses), none of them interested me. The game systems somehow became even more fiddly, complicated and confusing time sinks than they were in BFA. The afterlife setup barely made sense, conflicted with past lore, complicated future lore, and was ultimately depressing as hell--you probably won't spend eternity with your loved ones, and even if you do, you'll probably end up as a blip of red energy that gets consumed and then cease to exist at all. That's just how I want to imagine all my favorite Warcraft characters ending up! (We probably didn't see Tirion Fordring because some blue guy in a toga needed his anima to grow better grapes. FFS.)

But the worst aspect of Shadowlands, IMO, was the way the pre-existing characters were done dirty--every single one of them.

I don't know you manage to take one of the greatest paladins of all time, then turn him into fiery overlord of the undead, and have him be boring, but there's Bolvar. Get that man a throat lozenge and some personality. Taelia got cameos in which they mentioned their relationship, but nothing ever came of it. He was a father figure to Anduin in the king's youth, but you wouldn't know it by what they did/said in SL. Going by BFA and SL, freaking Saurfang was more of a father figure to Anduin than Bolvar, who literally raised him for several years of his childhood.

Nathanos got an epic sendoff courtesy of Tyrande in the prepatch, then got teased a few times without ever appearing or mattering again.

Sylvanas was a mess. I don't need to get into details; we all know the trainwreck of a story. The concept of making her soul complete again so she had to come to terms with what she had done was a promising one, but it was handled so clumsily and briefly that it was ultimately frustrating.

The less said about the Jailer, the better. I wanted so badly to like Zovaal, but he was the most flat, boring, paint-by-numbers Saturday morning cartoon villain in the franchise's history. Not interesting, not sympathetic, not fleshed out, not funny, not charismatic, not sexy, not scary--none of the things past Blizzard villains had going for them.

Uther's story was one of the better ones, but because of how closely tied it was to Arthas' story, and the unforgivably bad way that was handled, it ultimately fizzled.

Thrall was...fine? The bits with his mom were neat, but I couldn't stop thinking about what a crappy afterlife it would be to constantly fight, spy, scheme, and play politics, all while the supposed love of her life is nowhere to be seen. Poor Durotan.

Baine famously, frustratingly, amusingly in an if-you-don't-laugh-you'll-cry kind of way, did jack squat in the entire expansion. I know his arc got cut for time, but regardless of the reason he was yet another character whose involvement in SL was disappointing.

Jaina was wasted. Her history with Arthas (and, to a lesser extent, Anduin) could have made for some memorable, heart-wrenching story, but instead she was just a generic sorceress. That was especially disappointing given the respectful, deep treatment her character got in BFA. I know not every character can have the spotlight in every story arc, but the complete lack of personality she had in SL was especially jarring in contrast.

Anduin's arc should have been interesting, but we never got into his head enough to really feel what he was feeling. We had that glimpse of his horror after stabbing the Archon, and he left his father's compass as a clue, but those were fleeting moments open to interpretation and not enough to offset the blank slate we got the rest of the time. Even that would have been forgivable, given the limits of storytelling in a game, but the thing that sticks in my craw the most is that constant, blatant Arthas parallels led to...nothing. Anduin would have been just as devastated to be mind-controlled into doing evil stuff even if Arthas had never existed. Arthas meant nothing to Anduin. The only time he met the man was as an infant. They weren't related. Nobody in-universe was comparing them. Garrosh compared himself to Arthas in the War Crimes novel, and Anduin fleetingly thought about Arthas when he befriended Calia in Before the Storm, but that's it. Even as hokey as it would have been to make Anduin secretly Jaina and Arthas' son, at least that would have explained two expansions' worth of in-your-face parallels between the two characters. But no. It all came across as fanservice--or fan teasing--and had no payoff.

Speaking of Arthas, arguably the most famous and recognizable character in the franchise (competing with Illidan and Scantily-Clad Female Night Elf #17 for the top spot)...

After being teased about his possible involvement or whereabouts all expansion long, after they milked every possible drop of nostalgia out of his story in an attempt to make SL palatable, after all the flashing red arrows calling our attention to parallels between him and Anduin, despite his importance to three prominent characters (Uther, Sylvanas, and Jaina), Arthas never did anything (boss mechanics don't count), never had a line of dialogue, never appeared in a form we recognized, got insulted and belittled by Sylvanas one last time, and disappeared in a flicker of blue plasma that was less impressive than a drunk frat boy lighting his farts with a match.

So yeah. Toss Shadowlands in the trash heap (except Sire Denathrius). It was so bad it tainted the entire franchise for me, so that I couldn't even enjoy the long-awaited dragonpalooza that followed.

Phew, that was a long rant, and the first time I've written about WoW in ages. I guess it just goes to show that I have deep roots in the franchise that come along with strong feelings--which makes it all the harder to accept that I may not even buy the next expansion. I suppose I'll weaken when the time comes, but I'm certainly not shelling out for the collector's edition or other bells and whistles.

But then the Li'l Wrathion in-game pet stares at me from another browser tab, and I think about the new Wrathion plushie, and I'm like...DAMN IT, why couldn't you have done this years ago? :(

Anyway, sorry to be a downer, but I'm kind of in mourning, in a weird way, as I come to terms with the way I feel--or more importantly, don't feel--about Warcraft now.

[voidsentprinces]

Haven't played 6.3 - 6.5 yet but I don't really care about getting spoiled because the Post-Patch always seems to be its own beast and only the last half of X.5 ever points to where were going next. And I gotta say, that I haven't really cared for the Thirteenth Shard shenanigans. Sure it gave us more void lore but like...we got the legion of Doom lead by Armored Lex Luthor. Who, just like Fandaniel, went on and on about the plan and how us defeating the fiends only furthered his plan and now that we defeated him his REAL plan is coming together and like...a villain going on and on about plans and how every move we make just feeds into their future plans is what got me to leave BFA and made me never touch Shadowlands and care more about levels 84 - 90 than 80 - 83. I kind of preferred it when a villain isn't skulking around and talking about their plans, you know?

Gaius was a fun interest cause there was an interest in the Primals and us for slaying them. But up until Ultima Weapon is revealed its just us ruining Old Man Baelsar's plans by unmasking his co-horts and he would of gotten away with it too if it wasn't for us meddling kids.

Heavensward takes us on an adventure to discover the true past of Ishgard with the over arching theme of not believing in vengeance or blind faith to uncover what is historically being hidden by those in power. But with Nidhogg slain half way through its little wonder Thordan is the enemy and we know what he's after, he's going to Azys Lla for some purpose and he wins the key because we lost the blessing of light back in ARR but we get it back and turns out he wants to turn into a Primal. He didn't go on and on about his plans he pretty much just threw a wrench into whatever we were doing or sent us out to distract us.

Zenos pretty much just lounged around like a bored house cat until we became the Warrior of Laser Pointers and then he took interest in us. Fordola and Yotsuyu fighting us out of sunk cost fallacy had more going for them than Zenos did and they didn't go on and on about a plan.

Emet-Selch was an antagonizing force but he only shows up at the beginning of Act II for the most part we're just running around slaying Lightwardens for the good of the First and Vauthry is just there to try and stop us. His end goal is just to stop us and we're trying to save the world. No one goes on and on about a "plan". Or how us defeating Lightwardens just furthers their plan. Emet wants to see if we're capable of handling all the light wardens light and be an unofficial but honorary Ascian in all but name. Vauthry just wants to stop us. Ran'jit wants to get Ryne back. And G'raha with us is trying to save the world and us at the cost of just his life. Fandaniel and Golbez are just standing around monologuing about everything going to cake (cake means keikaku which means plan) and they're like...REALLY boring. Ya know? I am MORE invested in how much of the animation budget goes into each Post Patch making a singular dish look like softcore porn for us. Than I am for whatever the fuck Golbez is doing.

Spoiler me away but you know...tag for people who don't want to be.

Yeeeeeah, thats it bitch...work the shaft.

[jeschalynn]

Oh man who are your WoW/blizz faves?

Wrathion—I love how he interacts with the other characters, he is so smart and witty. Also, his dragon form model? Amazing. I liked his encounter in Ny'alotha too.

Majordomo Selistra—I love them, one of my favourite characters in Dragonflight honestly.

Renethal—my prince! I love Revendreth so much, best SL zone and you can fight me on this. My main was Venthyr even though it was the weakest covenant for my spec because I loved it so much. LOL

Lor'themar—he might be my oldest WoW crush. LOL He's one of those lore chararcters that feels dependable to me, I don't have to worry about him going mad with power and causing too much trouble.

Illidan—fan favourite for an obvious reason. I really warmed up to him in Legion since I didn't start playing until the end of BC. I'm still trying to get his glaives though, I'm missing one.

Anduin—I play Horde 95% of the time (except for my one Alliance alt I use for faction-specific mount/pet collecting). I really warmed up to him in BFA and Shadowlands. His cinematics have been SO GOOD, props to his VA.

Khadgar—the Solomon of WoW, I love this guy. His jokes are so bad, they're ridiculous. A total dilf for sure.

Rokhan—one of my favourite characters in BFA. I love trolls.

Bwonsamdi—sketchy af but hilarious. Troll fav bias showing here too.

Problematic favs (aka mostly bad guys/anti-heros I'm down bad for):

I am secretly #TeamOldGods except for C'thun. I dig the lore and the aesthetic and the creepy language and tentacles they're just really neat.

Denathrius—oh, Daddy D and his horny sword. Love this asshole, love his zone, love his raid, love his boss fight, love his little sword pet that kills things when she follows me around. BIG FAV.

Guldan—I don't like many orc characters but the chokehold he has on me. He's so evil and menacing. And his voice???

Azshara—she's been such a recurring villain throughout the game, it really built up the hype for me by the time she had more screen time in BFA. Her Warbringers cinematic was amazing. What a queen. Her boss fight was so tedious but still kind of fun. Actually, I enjoyed the Eternal Palace raid overall.

Zul—it was so obvious he was gonna go bad, but I did not care. My troll bias is showing again.

Taran Zhu—don't ask.

Falric and Marwyn—I am so weak for their voices like hello? Absolute monsters, but I'd let that happen.

[lasnevadaslaborunion]

I feel like you've assumed my critiques of trolls come from a surface level outsider's perspective. They don't.

I main a Darkspear troll druid. I have mained her consistently since 2014, except during the time I stopped playing the game during BfA and Shadowlands. I roleplay her regularly as a devout practitioner of her faith who takes a reasonable amount of pride in her culture. I love troll aesthetics, troll themes, troll history. Vol'jin is one of my favorite characters in lore. Trolls can be very, very cool, precisely because they draw from cultures not often represented positively in fantasy.

The problem is that the way trolls are written in canon uphold those colonialist tropes as often as they subvert them.

Remember Zul'jin? Leader of the Amani trolls? Rightfully furious that the blood elves have stolen Amani land, desecrated their sacred spaces, tortured him and cut out his eye, and then allied with the Horde that betrayed his people when they needed them most? A bastion against colonialism, fighting to defend his people's ancestral home?

Yeah, that guy. Remember how he was a throwaway raid boss in Burning Crusade?

Or how about this - do you remember how in the classic troll starting zone intro, they were called "vicious dark-magic users," despite Vodou being a religion practiced by real people today? Do you remember how trolls are called "superstitious" despite their gods canonically existing and influencing their lives? Have you noticed how troll Loa are constantly portrayed as scary and sinister compared to, say, night elven Ancients, despite technically belonging to the same category of deities? Have you noticed how frequently in questing we are tasked with murdering their gods? Have you noticed how often the Darkspear trolls have been portrayed as "exceptions to the rule" that trolls in general are xenophobic, hateful creatures?

Where, exactly, is the subversion of expectations? Where are we meant to sympathize with them, if we are still forced to kill them for daring to defend themselves?

And do I need to say anything about how even Vol'jin - the "good" troll leader who cooperates and makes peace with other races - was treated pathetically? How he somehow got hit with the "black guy always dies" curse before actual black humans even became playable?

(Side note, but why the fuck did it take Blizzard until 2020 to add proper customizations for PoC humans? Why is it that humans in mainstream fantasy are always white, and the non-white inspired cultures are always non-human? Does that not strike you as strange?)

Hell, why is it that the only "loa" seen in the current Emerald Dream patch - one largely centered around the wild gods - is an entity we have never heard of before, with zero trollish aesthetic elements?

I don't hate the trolls. They're my favorite race. But that's more for what they could and should be than for what they are in the game. Zandalar was a massive step in the right direction, to be clear - but there's a long, long way to go. And as a descendant of some of the real-world groups that form the inspiration for trolls, including practitioners of ATRs like Santería and Vodou, it matters deeply to me that they are given the same care and sympathy as any other fictional race in their setting.

Now while we're on the subject of the Horde... I agree. That subversion of the typical "good vs. evil races" dichotomy is what drew me to the faction years ago. Orcs aren't naturally bloodthirsty conquerors; they were a shamanistic people tragically duped by demons. The Tauren aren't animals; they're a peaceful society that lives in harmony with the land. The Darkspear aren't like those other scary trolls; they let their women have equal rights!

But how has that theme been followed through on after Warcraft 3?

Since Cataclysm, I struggle to think of any major faction conflict that was not either started or escalated far beyond reason by the Horde. Garrosh's aggression toward night elves, bombing of Theramore, and attempted conquest of Pandaria. Sylvanas's... everything. It's always the Horde that needs to change itself, while the Alliance oh-so-graciously allows them to continue existing despite the grievous sins they have committed.

And no, the Alliance has not conducted itself perfectly throughout these conflicts. But since the very first Warcraft game, they have been put on the defensive. And when they do something genuinely horrible unprompted (see the dwarven archeological desecration of Tauren land in Mulgore, as one example), it is rarely called out for what it is.

Why is it that the Horde - consisting of Mongolian-inspired orcs, Amerindian-inspired Tauren, and Caribbean/Aztec/African-inspired trolls among others - are constantly portrayed as the agressors against the overwhelmingly aesthetically European Alliance?

Look, I don't doubt that World of Warcraft is trying to be anti-racist and turn stereotypes on their head. Problem is, it's not very good at it. They're learning. That's good. Let's not pretend they're perfect or that they've thought everything through.

It frightens and discourages me how pervasive "tribal" stereotypes and imagery are in the fantasy and adventure genres.

It's all over the place in classic literature. Crack open a Jules Verne novel and you're likely to find caricatures of brown people and cultures, even when the characters are sympathetic to the plight of the colonized peoples - incidentally, this is the biggest reason I can't recommend 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea to everyone, despite Captain Nemo being one of my favorite fictional characters of all time.

You can't escape it in modern cinema, either. You'll see white heroes venturing bravely into jungles and tombs to steal from natives who don't know how to use their resources "properly." You'll see them strung up in traps, riddled with sleeping darts, forced to flee and fight their way out. Hell, Pirates of the Caribbean, a remarkably inclusive franchise in many other ways, had an extended sequence of the white heroes escaping from a cannibal civilization in the second film.

And when fantasy RPGs want a humanoid enemy, the "bloodthirsty natives" are the first stock trope they jump to. World of Warcraft is one of the most egregious examples, with the trolls - blatant racist caricatures with faux-voodoo beliefs, cannibalistic diets, Jamaican accents, and a history of being killed in droves by (white) elves and humans - being raided and slaughtered in nearly every expansion.

It doesn't matter how vibrant and distinctive the real-world indigenous, Polynesian, Caribbean, and African cultures are. It doesn't matter how much potential these real civilizations offer for complex and sympathetic characterization. Anything that doesn't make sense to the white western mind is shoved under the same "savage" umbrella. They're different. They're strange. They're scary. They have to be escaped, subjugated, eliminated, ogled at from the safety of a museum.

Modern writers, directors, and developers don't even seem to realize how horrifying it is to present the indigenous inhabitants of a place as "obstacles" for non-native protagonists to overcome. "It's not racist," they say, "because these people aren't really people, you see." And if you dare to point out anything that hurts or offends you as a descendant of the bastardized culture, you're accused of being the real racist: "These aren't humans! They're monsters! Are you saying that these real societies are just like those disgusting monsters?"

No, they're not monsters. But you chose to design them as monsters, just as invaders have done for hundreds of years. Why would you do that? Why can you recognize any other caricature as evil and cruel, but not this?

This is how deep colonialism runs.

[esperanta-dragon]

💥🦋🦈 for the ask game?

💥 What is one canon thing that you wish you could change?

The whole Shadowlands and whole narrative built around Sylvanas to make her appear she was only a victim and did not want any of it. I don't believe she did not want it. Not only it made her look weak and dumb, but the amount of effort put into breaking and twisting the old established lore to achieve this... ooof. No. It does not work and will never work. To be honest I am still not sure what Blizzard tried to achieve. Why they went bonkers with her just to pull the breaks in the last moment. Why they couldn't make her a really good villain she deserved to be? Why she had to end up being just a pawn in all this? They wanted us to feel sorry for her? Did not happen because it does not work. Not even the book made me think that. The whole book was trying to avoid the Jailer and Shadowlands plot. Now we will never know how her original story after WotLK was supposed to go. I am just sad because she did not deserved it as incompetent writers used her badly and destroyed the whole lore to make it happen... what made it happen? I don't know and will never understand the reason behind this decision. Shadowlands will never belong to WoW lore, it will always stick out as some strange spin-off and I wish Blizzard made some change in the timeline with Bronze Dragonflight and erase it or claim that it was an alternative reality. We deserved better Shadowlands. And many characters deserved better resolution.

🦋 Which character is your favorite to write? More of them.

Darion Mograine It took me 10 years to find out how to write him correctly. At first he was way too soft because I was a teenager who had this phase that all dark characters are misunderstood and they are all soft inside (yes even Arthas, Kel'Thuzad, etc... ugh). Then I wrote him way too tough, almost indifferent just to make him tough which is not true. He is not and it was shown in Legion and in We Ride Forth how much he cares about everybody even Bolvar.

Death knights are hard to write in general because you have to find the balance between their indifference to the living world but also show that they have a lot of issues, trauma, and regrets. So when I started writing RP with my friend, I couldn't be happier when she told me that Darion is incredibly complex and at first it doesn't make sense what he is doing and how does he react but when you figure out his core values, you get to understand him more and suddenly it makes sense.

Until this day, my friend who is writing Anduin still says from time to time that she can't exactly get into Darion's head because sometimes he does a lot of illogical stuff based on his moral compass and inner values. And I am not talking about how trauma and regrets and all the bad things are getting into his behavior.

And that makes me happy he is this kind of a weirdo.

Kel'Thuzad

Strange but KT is my favorite villain. When I started building my story with death knights many years ago, the Lich King was the one in the spotlight and doing decisions. Then I realized it doesn't make sense and he doesn't have the goddamn time and why should he care. So Kel'Thuzad would be the one doing all the stuff and planning before Light's Hope.

Then the book about sir Zeliek was in making. He wasn't there that much with the first version of the book. Which is absolutely pitty because I got to like him a lot. In the second version I am rewriting after years, taking out the stuff which was not working and using the potential on maximum, I can't wait to catch the drive and finish the book in a few weeks.

I just love writing highly calculating, insane characters. Which reminds me he is in one of my AU fanfics I am rewriting and I enjoyed absolutely every moment he was in. I should get back to it. He is crazy. I love working with him.

sir Zeliek

My child, hello. There are like 2-3 fanfics with sir Zeliek on the internet. 1 is goddamn good from @rabbitprint called Holding Circles. As an undead paladin, he has an incredible potential never fully used by Blizzard. So I adopted him, created his background from scratch, and connected his story with Warcraft III and WotLK so he ends up being crucial.

I've written the whole book about him in 2014. At that time it was not perfect but it helped me cope with toxic environment I was in. It was a first draft and over the years I've managed to analyze what should be deleted, what should be explored, changed and how to use the full potential of the book. My writing got better and I've managed to put a lot more details into it.

It was always my big dream to write the second version which will be finally good and translate it into English. I don't know if people will read it, if it will have at least one comment each chapter because... I tend to like characters nobody cares about.

But I hope somebody will like it and maybe people will in the end appreciate the story I've created around him. He was built from scratch. And I hope people will like him. Because he is in a grey moral zone and I've put a lot of effort into him. People realizing how big potential was missed would make me happy.

🦈 Which character is the toughest to write?

You wouldn't believe but Arthas as the Lich King. It's super hard to write this kind of deity which should be stoic, and calm but creepy and intimidating at the same time. Unfortunately... when I try it, he always ends up being cringe.

Maybe it's just my feeling and maybe it got better. I would have to start rewriting the AU when the Lich King won the war in Northrend because he was there for a few moments.

Still, I am avoiding him when I can. It is funny when you write about death knights and you... can't avoid it 100%

[cloakoflame]

is your muse canon divergent in any way?

Munday Asks

Yes. As much as I try to stick to lore and canon, there are some things about canon Kael'thas that I elect to ignore or, at best, like to explore outside of that.

Fingernails The number one thing I don't care for is how Blizzard has continued to depict Kael'thas with those monstrously long fingernails. Now, I can see where that would make sense in the Burning Crusade era because he was addicted to the potency and power of fel magic. A little fact about fel magic if you don't know: it blows not only your good traits, but also your bad traits completely out of proportion. It twists other users like Gul'dan, Grommash, Illidan, and the demon hunters, and the more they take fel magic, the more you see see both emotional and physical deformities--green skin, long fingernails, green eyes (for elves), arrogance, power-hungry, etc. So I try to pretty much rationalize that Kael has those fingernails because of fel magic.

But then Shadowlands came along, and Kael had them there, too. Sooo no. Nope. I do not depict Kael with long nails ever or the red nail polish--with the exception of Burning Crusade maybe only because I can understand it was him at his most arrogant. Okay, his Reveler skin in Hearthstone has black nail polish and the inner goth in me likes this. Just not so long please.

Personality The only thing I can think of with this and it probably depends on what RP AUs I set him in, but I tend to portray (or I know at first I did portray) Kael'thas as more mellow, sensitive, and thoughtful? A little more wise than he can sometimes be even in Shadowlands, but I do praise Blizzard for including his heavy remorse, guilt, reserved nature, guardedness, etc, which is exactly how I've always done it.

RP Canon Divergences I have two AUs that explore Kael outside of canon. One is the Survivor AU where Kael survived Tempest Keep and ACTUALLY went through Wrath of the Lich all the way to current expansion. Getting to explore his potential and what an impact he could have made on the lore is so interesting (and sad) to think about. I love Lor'themar, but Kael could have had so many interesting things to say and do. Would he have faced Arthas again as the Lich King? How would he have reacted to Jaina purging the blood elves from Dalaran? What about confronting his pride in Mists of Pandaria?

The other AU is Revival, which I haven't given as much love in recent years. Basically, Kael is revived by the naaru Xera after his death in Magister's Terrace and undergoes a journey of remorse, spiritual self-discovery, and goes back to Silvermoon by beginning of Mists of Pandaria where he eventually proves himself to his people, who slowly forgive him for his crimes. He confronts Kil'jaeden, aids the Nightborne during their own insurrection against Elisande, reconnects with Jaina, etc.

[kehideni]

I think you misunderstood a part here. I said Neltharion specifically because it's not Deathwing that Sabellian and Wrathion look up to, but this glorified "before he was Deathwing he was good" Neltharion. (Something that even Alexstrasza is guilty of in the sense that Blizzard JUST NOW decided to make Neltharion a bad guy from the start "the true spirit of the earth warder watch over you" or what she said) and deus ex Aberrus: he was ALWAYS a bad guy.

Sabellian from the first place was daddy's son who just now in Aberrus saw that no, he is not willing to follow in daddy's footsteps.

Wrathion despises Deathwing yes, but he was very anecdotal about Neltharion to Anduin in the BFA cinematic. (Paraphrasing: my father, a once noble protector of Azeroth turned to Deathwing due to the whispers) he hated Deathwing, but he had a positive look on who he possibly was. Aberrus was the proof that Neltharion never was that "noble protector", he was always shady and manipulating. (Which is inconsistent, because A LLLLOT of characters are anecdotal of Neltharion eventhough it's proven he was shitty to them all their life, see: dracthyr)

Ebyssian's part in this was that even if he didn't know that Neltharion was an ass from the get go, he wanted to cut him out from his life completely. To him he was bad, very much so and whatever remains of him i don't want or need it.

Wrathion (Sabellian too he is just not the main topic now) wanted to get whatever he could from the dragon isles concerning the Black DF, save whatever he can from the old legacy, and Neltharion (the one that was an ass but not yet corrupted completely) was part of it.

The main difference here is Ebyssian completely cutting out Neltharion from his identity(it pained him to call himself heir of Neltharion to a simple door) and Wrathion(and Sabellian) being willing to save this positive picture that an uncorrupted Neltharion provided (which was a lie in the end)

I'll be honest, i did not read Ebyssian's talk, but zeroing either of his siblings out to shun is not wise either, given the situations they were in. That would just turn the one he zeroes out againts him and he needed them united, working together. If one gets berated then the other needs to be as well because it can easily turn into a "yeah but what about him" and then again they get nowhere(as siblings do...). Ebyssian's inconsistency is in that he did not care for the slitherdrakes, when previously in a cutscene Sabellian killed a creature just so it wouldn't be noisy, Ebyssian was about to berate him for it, just put it aside because there were more pressing matters.

My problem is that Blizzard can't take a character(any character for that matter) from 0 to 1. If they do it's really slow. Just think of the most butchered characters ever and Ebyssian's inconsistency becomes insignificant.

Thrall, Jaina, Sylvanas, Varian, Arthas who got retroactively ruined when he was the one character that was well done in his genre, Garrosh's character assassination deserves a book, i could go on.

The only character Blizz doesn't ruin is the ones they kill off, and i damn hope they won't ever touch Cairne for this reason. Thank whoever is responsible for cutting the tauren plotline from Shadowlands.

Which is why i said: Try to see the intention not the end product, because Blizzard's writing and WoW lore is already an unsaveable clusterfuck. And i put way too much emotional investment into characters to let shitty writers ruin them for me when the character is perfect (Wrathion is one of THE most interesting ones they made ever and Ebyssian among crazy(both positive and negative way) characters is a welcome pace change, as tauren usually are the more considering bunch).

If you ask me, where the Black DF story started to snowball is when Ebyssian first told Wrathion and Sabellian to chill and they ignored it. From Blizzard's part it was a stupid ass decision, they literally conveyed all the messages they wanted about Ebyssian, and both Wrathion and Sabellian are clever they should be able to pause their argument for the sake of the mission WHICH THEY DID BEFORE when Sab first got introduced in DF, and they were fighting the djaradin. "We'll discuss this later."

Tldr: characters good, WRITERS bad.

A big rant about the black dragonflight story:

So... as always i have a hard time figuring out where to start...

Least complicated to most complicated i guess?

Ebyssian: SO many people misunderstand or just flat out not get his POV and point he tries to make. Players end up criticizing him for things that are flat out incorrect, such as "not standing up for Wrathion when Sabellian dissed him as fodder and playing extreme centralism"

None of those are true. Just because he didn't punch Sabellian in the face or didn't scream at him, he chewed Sabellian out in THE way Sabellian would get the message. Ebyssian approached Sabellian right away and told him flat out that Wrathion IS his brother and he better start treating him that way. He is "the middle man" but he is not extremely centric, he speaks politics, he had practice in it, he has to walk on eggshells around his brothers because both of them are extremely egoistical AND are being whispered to. I know in this modern day and age everyone wants things straight out, clean and simple otherwise they start screaming "abuse!!" But my peeps... that's not how humans work, that's not how YOU work.

For an overtly simplified example: imagine you are walking on the street, minding your own buisness and your fly is down, showing your underware but you didn't notice yet.

Which would you rather have a stranger pointing and laughing at you, screaming loudly for everyone to hear that your fly is down

OR

A stranger discreetly pushing your arm, and pointing to your fly then quietly they continue on their own walk.

Telling something is one thing, HOW you communicate it is also important because the message gets lost if you don't chose the correct way.

Ebyssian tried his best to communicate to his brothers that Neltharion was never someone to look up to, something that those two always ignored in favor of having another bigdick contest and had to have an "in your face" wake up call in the Aberrus raid.(Sarkareth's death)

Now onto Sabellian:

Eventhough Sabellian is an older character than Wrathion and Ebyssian (both in terms of lore age and irl creation) he is the least developed. We hardly even know his character, everything he did people took as core personality trait for face value. And in all honesty that's all we can do for now. He is shown being caring, he is shown being competitive, he is shown being insecure. It's really not THAT unbelievable that he would call Wrathion fodder. Yes it hurt even to hear, but you know why it hits hard? Because THAT'S what a strained relationship between siblings look like! I had a very bad relationship with my older brother for YEARS and both of us knew exactly what to say to the other to cause the most pain. Siblings have that kind of power over each other and don't tend to pull punches in these cases. And still keep in mind the whispers that was activly keeping them on edge. I really hope the trio will not get broken up because all 3 of them were -one way or another- alone for so long... they deserve to heal.

Onto the problem child Wrathion.

Look... he is a very gray area for many of us.

Children (when we are talking about simple human children) are not responsible for the things they do. Adults take responsibility because they are supposed to know better, they are supposed to teach the younger and guide them.

Now fantasy dragon children that are just hatched but already have the lexical knowledge of a well read adult are absurd... there's no real life equalent for that, it does not exist. So how am i supposed to treat Wrathion?

A snotty, wild, "no parental figure whatsoever to guide him", misguided KID who had a serious world-politics defining shitbrewery - in which case it's "forgive and for the love of Azeroth LEARN FROM THIS WRATHION" (and for the record only forgive it because he is a fictional character, irl kids would catch these hands if they orchestrated a genocide(which is absurd in the first place))

Or

Calculate his mental age as him having all the responsibility, in which case he is an asshole, caused an attempted genocide, sided with orc-hitler, brought Apocalypse 2.0 and weren't even around to help, AND still did not even apologize and also how dare he call Anduin a friend considering he is indirectly the cause of Varian's death. "But kehideni, he did it to prepare-" oh shut up... There is this saying in hungary that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. But credits where it is due: he did stab a squid.

Look, you can like what and who you like, but first of all don't expect good writing from World of Warcraft. It's been a spagetti of a story for well over 10 years now. Retcons upon retcons, wedged in new characters, villains that are bigger than the previous ones all the time.

And even so, characters are not static. They can say something then do a contradictory thing right after.

Characters in WoW tend to explicitly explain what and why they do BECAUSE so many different kind of people precieve it, it makes for poor writing but everyone should understand it. But they don't. Ebyssian had a cinematic of him explaining he feels ashamed of his ties to Neltharion and wants nothing to do with him and people question why he won't go into Aberrus.

"But it's irresponsible what if Sabellian and Wrathion fall to the Shasowflame."

Yes, what exactly is Ebyssian supposed to do in that case? Uh huh...

Also both Sabellian and Wrathion had a well educated guess on what awaits in there, shadowflame among those things.

"But Ebyssian convinced them to-"

First of all no, he convinced them to help open the door, also both Sabellian and Wrathion were open about wanting to loot the place. "Part of their legacy" or what...

Would i have changed bits of the writing here or there? Yes, absolutely. But as a veteran WoW fan i learned to see what was intended to be the story, rather than what it became through a long ass production line. I do this with GW2 as well.

(This is exactly why i ignore SL exists btw, since there was absolutely no detectable intention there, it was just a clusterfuck)

[spartanlocke]

I've mainly been interested in WoW lore but I've never played the games and it seems there's a lot I still don't know. Like when did WoW writing get so bad? I know Warlords was bad (anything with time travel is in my book except Destiny and the Vex), then I heard Legion was good apart from killing off Vol'jin. What happened? Change in writers or something?

…WoW’s writing has always been bad. Even with expansions like Wrath of the Lich King and Mists of Pandaria, which I think were both excellent, there’s always this one part of the story that feels like it’s just there to remind you that Blizzard doesn’t want to put actual consequences (or effort) in their story.

I think Blizzard has always had the same writers, but things quickly went downhill when Chris Metzen left. You see, Blizzard’s writers are extremely favoristic. They’re practically addicted to playing favorites, so their favorite characters will always get the plot working in their favor, even if it means contradicting the narrative (BFA making every other character act OOC) or letting them get away with mass murder (Illidan and Grommash.) This is also obvious in the Horde’s case, because they’re the faction Blizzard likes, they get to commit genocide every other expansion and get away with a slap on the wrist and a “Welcome back to the family” party with the Alliance, who they were cheerfully massacring a few patches ago. 

Metzen wasn’t much different, but he at least cared about the Alliance a little bit. Unlike the current writers, who had half of the Night Elf (an Alliance race) population burned alive in their own city, then didn’t give them any form of compensation for it (instead, hinting that their leader is gonna go insane and be killed off.) 

As for the lore, well that shit don’t matter anymore because Blizzard’s thrown it all in the garbage to make their fanfiction Battle for Azeroth/Shadowlands work. The Alliance having more powerful characters than the Horde? Irrelevant. The Night Elves defeating invaders for over 10,000 years? Irrelevant. Literally any character having any sort of competence or standards??? Irrelevant. Pretty much the only characters who haven’t been utterly bastardized by the writing are the new ones introduced by BFA. Everyone else is just utterly stupid or doing things they never would’ve done before this expansion. And that’s not even going into that Blizzard literally can’t go five minutes without retconning something. Seriously. There is no consistency in WoW. If old lore doesn’t work with what they want to do, they just retcon it into something that does. 

For me, WoW has always been the greatest example of wasted potential. It has all these incredible concepts, lore and characters and yet every single time, the writers chose the most generic, repetitive, straight-up disrespectful plots to go with. It’s been like this every time, since Warlords of Draenor. Even Legion, all the stuff that was actually creative just ended up a stepping stool for main plot, Sucking Illidan’s Dick. 

Blizzard’s also incredibly sexist and racist, but you should know at least that already.

Long story short: Don’t bother. Right now is the worst possible time to get into WoW’s lore, because Blizzard has simply decided it doesn’t matter anymore. And considering they had the chance to fix this with Shadowlands and instead made it worse, it’s unlikely they’ll ever change.