#i do not want to be involved in ship discourse

[the-everqueen]

action items white people can consider to make fandom spaces more inclusive for bipoc:

rec/kudos/comment on fanworks made by poc

consider what roles characters of color take in your own work. do black and brown characters exist solely as emotional support for central white characters? are black and brown characters sidelined for white character arcs? do black and brown characters appear solely to Talk About Racism (aka be the Magical or moralizing force for a narrative)?

(consider: Not Doing That)

reflect on whose voices get centralized/prioritized in any given narrative

listen to poc who express discomfort/frustration/critique of the text or fanon without feeling the need to defend either (or recognize you don't need to insert yourself into some conversations)

conversations around racism in fan spaces almost always get derailed into debates about ships or The Literal Text, but in my experience some of the most alienating aspects of fandom are the subtle ways that white people signal us as "other," i.e. acting as though race and queerness are distinct categories (there are queer bipoc! we invented a lot of queer culture!), framing nonwhite characters as unrelatable or undesirable, and reproducing stereotypes in fanon narratives. these become exhausting to encounter, whether or not we're part of the larger fandom ecosystem, and because it's systemic, it becomes impossible to avoid. which means white people's escapism corner is another site that poc have to navigate very, very carefully.

[astronomical-bagel]

genuinely can’t understand character hate in a well-written show. I mean, I can understand here when the character is horribly written because that means they mess up the story, but. In a good show? What are you on about? You’re mad that they were an obstical to the hero’s journey? You’re mad that two character’s flaws interact in a way you don’t like? You’re mad about conflict? Dude. Dude that’s the whole point of a story. A journey without obstacles isn’t a journey anymore it’s just a walk down the road. A plot without conflict isn’t a story anymore it’s just some guy who doesn’t do anything.

[thewritegrump]

Sometimes I think about the antiblmatsu insta account or whatever that posted people you block b/c they ship blmatsu or whatever. They posted my Twitter and cited me as retweeting blmatsu art and I wasn't offended that they included me on their block list. On the contrary, I was offended that they didn't do their research and see that I'm not just someone who retweets blmatsu art. I'm out here fighting the good karacest fight, dammit (I was fighting the good karaichi fight, but sometimes life takes a strange turn)! Someone's got to and my fiancee and friends won't let me stop, so...

Sidebar, but antis please do you and I a favor and just go ahead and block me. You're not going to like me or what I'm about so get me out of your sight and we'll both be happier for it.

[cannibalismyuri]

coming out as a passive jopper hater bc the insane level of capitalist pandering they did with s3 (with ERICA who is like. one of the worst, stereotyped portrayals of a black girl ive ever seen, bless her heart) was truly crazy. combine that with the copaganda and the general attitude of hopper in s3 which was played off as 'awkward loser guy doesnt know what to do with Feelings more at 8' was a bit .... Eh :/ to me. because it is so obviously a fictional character and show but like. disliking hopper/jopper bc of the ideals st is perpetuating and the fact that they arent compatible at All in s3 (to me, atleast) is valid. some ppl might just think that jopper is unhealthy and/or 'overrated'. because they do sort of pay a disproportionate amount of attention to jopper, compared to the other canon romantic ships (afaik, bc of the screen time counter) and that can be Weird, esp with the... how should i say this? balancer/savior role hopper takes in the relationship (we constantly see him placating joyce, sometimes even being slightly patronizing, and also they place a lot of importance on him saving joyce from a lot of stuff, which is cool and sick if it wasnt for the fact that it directly correlates with him being a cop, yk). and the general power imbalance bc he's a Cop and abuses his position of power constantly, and that is exactly Why anything that joyce does is seen as a #insane girlboss category 5 woman moment because she simply has the short stick in the power race and when she does manage to make an impact DESPITE her economic/social/'general uselessness in say in Major decision-making when it comes to authorities' shortcomings it is seen as an amazing win. hopper on his own is extremely fleshed out as well, because we get to see his arc play out with his relationships with his daughter and ex-wife and el and re-learning how to be a parent and how to not let love allude him, and that is lovely! it's so great to see the adults in the show being focused on! but joyce is absolutely disregarded and underdeveloped as a character of her own right outside of her relationships with hopper or her kids. we see that she is determined and a force to be reckoned with and that she cares very deeply for the people she loves and would go to insane lengths for them but all that doesn't Mean anything, because we never see a backstory for her. we never figure out who she is without her family or hopper, or what her motives and aspirations and emotional shortcomings and stumbles and mistakes are. for a character to be fully fleshed out, they need to be an interesting, refreshing and palatable character On Their Own without their relationships with other characters, and we just don't see that with joyce. like u have Thee winona ryder on ur show, and u forsake developing her character in favor of developing hopper's character with /not the best taste/ and causing her to be a blank slate of a mother, lover, woman and friend, but not a PERSON. all she's been reduced to is a Mother and Hopper's Girlfriend, and honestly, that's the worst decision they could've made in relation to her and her relationship with hopper.

anyway, all this to say; these are my thoughts on the matter, but i'm definitely not hating on people who enjoy jopper passively and DEFINITELY not any by/ler (the most predominant fandom im part of in the parent fandom of st) who enjoys them as a ship with their own dynamic separate from canon. because the by/ler fandom is NOT a monolith and nobody is obligated to agree with me or change their opinion if it doesn't align with mine or be forced to look at my opinion and feel bad for shipping anything. im not going to act Holier Than Thou for expressing my opinion and u should definitely continue shipping jopper if it makes u happy! as long everybody recognizes the copaganda and capitalist mindset grind propaganda shit in st (which is Pretty Obvious) and respects that while shipping what they want, i have no problem with it. all that is to say; peace and fucking love. can we (the by/ler fandom) stop fighting abt jopper we all have our own opinions this is bc we are Not a hivemind or a monolith and not obligated to have the same opinions relating to all aspects of st just because we happen to ship one thing. i am a hater and a lover

[bayetea]

Are you proship or antiship?

well. is it okay if I don't care 💀 I don't know what these are and I am committed to not googling it

[sunrise-on-the-shore]

A QPR ISN'T YOUR FUCKING JOKER CARD TO PUT ARO PEOPLE IN A RELATIONSHIP BTW :)

signed, an aromantic person.

[overwhelmed-frog]

also we do know that queerbaiting and shipbaiting are not the same… right? right??? a show that has an entirely explicitly canonically queer ensemble cast isn’t queerbaiting just because a queer ship doesn’t end up together. we can be disappointed without misusing a term that refers to a specific phenomenon that does not apply here. also while we’re at it, just because a character hasn’t identified themselves as gay, bi, pan, etc in those words doesn’t mean they don’t count as canonically queer. not everyone uses labels, I thought we knew this. if they have talked about past relationships/sex with people of the same gender and explicitly had gay sex in canon NUMEROUS times or literally have been GAY MARRIED, they’re not suddenly not queer just because they’ve never specifically said the words “I’m bisexual” or whatever

[slowlyfoggydestiny]

Soo it happen again huh

[spicyicymeloncat]

I don’t think it’s a retcon since there’s other zora kingdoms in different countries, such as the Zora Royal Family from the Zora Seas in Labrynna (neighbouring country to Hyrule) from Oracle of Ages. And in botw/totk, zora’s domain is right next to the sea.

(Also I was going to put this as a tag but this needs to be said aloud (spoilers for the end of the Zora’s domain’s quest): if Nintendo’s goal was to discourage sidlink and gay pairings, then they’re doing it badly, Sidon literally got on one knee for the man)

Actually, does Yona even…. have a place she comes from? At all? She mentioned recently coming to the Zora domain I know, but like…she doesn’t say from where, right? Did they seriously slap her in as a ‘not gay!!!!’ wife SO fast that they didn’t even have time to make up a kingdom name? 

Actually. There aren’t even multiple Zora domains at all, are there. Did they bother even retconning things to say ‘yes there are now ok’ at least??? Or is homegirl SERIOUSLY standing there hailing from the far-off land of ‘the writers room when people are worried about homophobic fanboy backlash’??

[anachronistic-falsehood]

ok to the anon in my inbox: hi i'm not going to answer your ask because it feels kinda racially charged. i don't think the trigun plantcest issue is specific to countries other than the US. in fact, the majority of plantcest shippers i've seen on twt have been american or from some other white-dominated western country. maybe the ones you've seen are using their culture to defend it, idk, i'm not you!! but this. is not a foreign-specific issue. this is prevalent in the western world as well. i agree that it makes the fandom unbearable but like bro i hope you know that in most cases it's white girl fujoshis who are spearheading the incest shipping. it is VERY popular in the us. the call is coming from inside the fucking house

[maxmayfieldirl]

Apparently there's drama? Damn I've been focused on my poorly written block people and trying to do them justice with rewriting it lmaooo

[kyuuumie]

this is just a ramble about billdip/billford since i’ve seen a bunch of posts and want to share my thoughts on it!

i find a lot of the comparisons between billdip and billford to be a bit off the mark. while it’s true they share some surface-level similarities—mainly because they both involve bill cipher and a “smart guy”—their dynamics are vastly different. in billford, ford initially placed an enormous amount of trust in bill. he practically revered him, as seen in the tapestries in his lab and all the one-eyed triangle symbols throughout the mystery shack. ford’s trust was so deep that he allowed bill to lead him down a dark path, ultimately resulting in betrayal. bill has since been shown relishing in taunting ford, making their relationship one of broken trust and regret.

on the other hand, billdip presents a way different dynamic. dipper never trusted bill in the first place. from the very beginning, their relationship was antagonistic. unlike ford, dipper wasn’t lured in by the promise of knowledge or power; he had to be manipulated, and even then, he was extremely hesitant to allow bill to possess him. bill never had dipper’s trust to betray, which sets the stage for a completely different kind of tension. in billford, the conflict stems from a deep betrayal of trust, whereas in billdip, it’s more about the struggle between manipulation and resistance, with dipper trying to outsmart someone he knows he can’t trust.

i want to clarify that i don’t hate or even dislike billford. they have an undeniably interesting dynamic, and under different circumstances, i’d probably be more invested in it. however, my enthusiasm for the ship is dampened by the behavior of some of its shippers. it often feels like many people ship billford not because they genuinely enjoy the dynamic, but rather out of a desire to distance themselves from billdip. it’s as if shipping billford has become a way to proclaim, “at least i don’t ship billdip.” but spite shouldn’t be the driving force behind creating content for a ship. shipping should be about passion, about enjoying the dynamic and wanting to explore it through art, writing, and discussion because it genuinely interests you.

that said, i do wish people would keep the discourse civil and avoid leaving hateful comments about either ship. unfortunately, that might be asking for too much in fandom spaces. but it would be nice to see more respect and understanding for different preferences, even if we don’t all share the same ships ૮꒰ ˶> ༝ <˶꒱ა

[valar-did-me-wrong]

Please don't forget Celebrimbor; my last Feanorian, desperate to be good & do good despite his history..

Please do not give away the credit of his life's work.. please do not forget his legacy.

The man must have inherited SO MUCH generational trauma & did not let it turn destructive. It is SO HARD to do that! Everyday I'm struggling with not letting it consume me and he lived for thousands of years doing that!

He had flaws, everybody has them let's be honest. I don't want anyone to worship him, even I don't. I am against noone & no ship, I love all of ROP & Legendarium.. I'm just asking to not erase him from the creation story of his own creations. Everytime I see discourse that forgets his involvement a piece of my heart breaks, then I think of this face & it breaks further 💔

I'm sorry but it's been eating away at me for months I needed it out of my system ☹️ regular scheduled memes after this one I promise 🫶🏽

[thecheshirerat]

On TAZ-

Wow that sounds like I’m about to summarize some sort of discourse but I promise I’m not. I guess I’ll say that I really like this show and I will keep listening even if my worst fears come to pass, so keep that in mind!

For reference, I started listening near the end of Amnesty.

I’ve noticed, with the past few arcs- really since Ethersea- the narratives have just… not been fulfilling their promises, so to speak. They’ve been placing a lot of guns that don’t go off. What I mean by that is, the characters are great. Excellent, really. Lady Godwin? HELL YES. Emerich Dreadway? Fuck yeah! And so on! And the settings and premises have been epic- the goofiness and also horrifying nature of Engrave, the mad and thrilling world of Steeplechase- these things are COOL AS FUCK.

and then the actual narratives keep flopping?

And honestly, I notice it most in the endings, because you can really tell when an ending doesn’t land. You feel the sense of disappointment. But with vs. Dracula, for example, I could kinda see leading up to it that the ending couldn’t really BE anything special, because they lowkey didn’t set themselves up for it.

They spent the campaign fucking around in Engrave, finding clues and solving problems and not really experiencing any particularly meaningful character arcs or growth or, idk, forming relationships? So there wasn’t much to pay off, I’m not gonna lie!

Of course it doesn’t feel quite as dissatisfying when you’re in the thick of it, because they’re funny and the stuff is cool and- oh hey! Lady Godwin’s been turned into a werehorse against her will?? that’s got some real potential for a LOT of allegories and exploration of some fun character development! And then it’s kinda played as a joke. And then they do that again and again.

And they actually said that that was a move they made intentionally, in the TTAZZ. I’m not quoting them perfectly here, this is from memory, but I do remember them mentioning that they wanted lighthearted comedy without the burden of real life story stuff. And I get that, honestly, but… it’s not the choice I would’ve made. I do think you can keep a lighthearted tone while also, idk, forming relationships and wholesomely engaging with some amount of emotion. And sometimes going way too deep is funny as a tone shift!

But I digress. One thing that’s also popped out to me is the almost complete lack of any kind of romantic storyline or even references. This becomes obvious if you’re in a fandom because everyone is always dying to ship SOMEONE, and you can tell when people are really getting desperate. I don’t blame them for not wanting to roleplay romance with their family, and I do think stories lacking romance are COOL and SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED!

However if you can’t find ANYBODY to ship together… that may mean you just don’t have character bonds. The growing popularity of the PC polycule is interesting to me; I wonder if it’s partially because

a) none of the pcs have significant relationships outside of their party and

b) even within the party, there doesn’t seem to be much chemistry between any given pair of characters…? I hope I’m making my point well here- the PCs all seem equally close and have more or less the same relationship to all of their compatriots with little distinction, meaning, essentially, no shipping fodder that doesn’t involve just all of ‘em.

Either way, it makes me wonder if I can blame the “Graduation has too many NPCs!” critique. They really stopped giving the parties tag-along main NPCs after graduation, with the exception of maybe.. Urchin? Kodira? Shlabethany? Poppy? and even they get relatively little “screen” time. Steeplechase has great NPCs, I love them to death, but none of the PCs seem to ever have one on one conversations with NPCs or each other that do not explicitly focus on the plot. And I think that’s part of why the characters feel so underdeveloped despite having spent a lot of time with them- because in this character-driven genre, we get very little insight into their feelings or motivations or even their rudimentary backstories.

I started watching Fantasy High recently and it made me realize a couple things about TAZ.

1) Recently, TAZ has sooo few core NPCs, and it’s weird that the characters aren’t doing more one-on-one purely character based scenes. And that makes it really tough to develop them.

2) TAZ is- and I should have realized this before- one of many good dnd podcasts. They’re probably looking for a niche they can master.

And it sounds like they’re trying to get back to that old “Here there be Gerblins!” energy. They’ve referenced it so many times in recent TTAZZes- they wanted to be job-focused, allowing story stuff to happen organically, so they tried a more open world vibe with Ethersea. They wanted to be less afraid to kill stuff, so they tried playing criminals (and were still afraid to kill stuff). They wanted to be silly and light on character, as they tackled with taz vs dracula. Now they’re trying to bring in the silly cartoon vibe with Abnimals. I think they’re trying to make that family-friendly, funny and goofy show their niche. Something other actual plays can’t be better at them at.

And honestly it kinda makes me sad, that they keep trying to go back to Balance while ignoring everything they learned during it. Because I loved Dust. Because I loved Amnesty. Because I loved Ethersea. I loved these past arcs! But they keep doing their brilliant characters dirty for some reason!!! And i don’t know why!!!!

You know that meme about people who ask questions in movies and then the person responds “Have you ever been to a movie before? You watch them and the information is revealed.” There have been so many times in TAZ recently where information has Not been revealed and if they keep doing it the audience will stop bothering to suspend their disbelief, because the trust just isn’t there.

What is Montrose’s deal? What on earth was Carmine Denton’s whole thing? Tell me more about Zoox’s feelings, about Devo’s past, about Amber’s future. Show me how Lady Godwin feels about the body horror that is her life- like, seriously! WHY DID WE HAVE TO COMPLETELY DISMISS THE OPPORTUNITY TO DISCUSS GENERATIONAL TRAUMA IN MUTT’S LIFE FOR A JOKE??

Do you remember in Steeplechase where the boys were getting medical attention or something- i don’t remember, but they were all in one room and only talking about The Plot. And Poppy literally banged on the door (speaking for both Justin and me, tbh) and was like “does anyone want to share any feeeeelings??” and they were like NOPE! and they moved on!!

like. cmon. you can’t just put a character like montrose out there and then leave them severely underdeveloped to the point that what would be interesting in proper context, with audience insight, becomes confusing and chaotic.

I just wish they would take their stories as seriously as we do.

It feels to me like they don’t believe in themselves, and it makes me sad. Maybe they didn’t get the response they wanted from Ethersea and so they’ve been trying to pivot, hoping to recapture whatever it was that earned them a loyal audience.

Again, I love them. They’re so funny and I’ll keep listening until the day they stop making this show, and when it happens I’ll cry.

But i KNOW they have more in them. Remember the “we’ll grow gills” monologue from Justin in the Prologues? Remember Travis’s SOLID acting with Devo? Or his awesome choice to give Lyndon/Beef a clearly delineated work/irl identity? His excellent narration and prose? Remember when Montrose described being lonely?! Remember all those moments where Shit Got Real and you cared??? The nanofather said some dope shit! dracula and victor and sweater dracula had such a wild dynamic! Clint’s acting in Dust 2- I can’t remember the characters name right now- was ASTOUNDING, I genuinely didn’t know he had that in him and it blew me away!

I’m not referencing Balance on purpose, both because the fandom is way to hung up on it and because I want to prove that you don’t even have to look at Balance, or even Post-Balance arcs, to see this kind of good cool stuff!

GAAAAAAAGHHHH!!! I want them to have fun. But also. We’re starving out here.

[friendlyneighborhoodamara]

Ngl, as a Farcille fan and WOC, a fair bit of the discourse about there being more M/M fics than F/F fics on AO3 annoyed me because while I agree fandom misogyny is awful, I feel it gave some Farcille fans license to be racist or homophobic.

Like, I remember there being a LOT of anger at Labru specifically, and while I do prefer yuri ships over yaoi ships (nothing personally, I'm just a bi trans girl), given how much anger was directed at a ship involving a dark-skinned MOC because it "overshadowed" a ship with two white blonde women, I can't help but raise an eyebrow at a certain subset of Farcille fans.

This is exacerbated by how some Farcille fans hated on Toshiro due to him "getting in the way" of their ship, portraying him as either weak or worthless (both negative stereotypes of East Asian men) or a sexist thug who wants to violate Falin's happiness or consent (which is...a gross misread of Toshiro's character, and a rather racist interpretation of a MOC's crush on a white woman).

Idk, I feel white Farcille fans need to remember that they're white. Shit was wild for several months and I hope things get better.

[myfandomrealitea]

okay, so- this is coming from someone who really hasn't engaged in fandom discourse, especially regarding shipping and such. I dearly hope this doesn't come across as bait or troll, I'm genuinely curious and want to learn. apologies for the possibly-dumb question, but I really just need to ask-

what is proshipping? and what are 'antis'?

you know how it is, when you ask around you always get a biased answer one way or another. "proshippers are pedos" "proshippers all condone incest" "proship Bad and if you interact You Are Bad" (i think these are 'anti' points of view? am i using that term right? that's the rhetoric ive mainly heard). but despite all of that, i don't know if ive ever actually gotten a straight answer as to just.. what it factually is. because it doesn't feel like the sort of thing that you can boil down to insults or accusations or whatnot. it's all just very confusing to me, especially because i come from a place that essentially just told me to avoid like the plague and never look back. sorry, this became a bit of a ramble, lol. thank you so much in advance, i hope i'm not being a bother or insulting with this ^^;

The modern term; 'proship' (s.a; 'proshipping' and 'profiction') is an evolution of an earlier fandom acronym known as: 'SALS.'

Ship And Let Ship

SALS was one of the earliest fandom adoptions and interpretations of the concept of not bullying others for what they shipped or their fandom interests, and not trying to control or dictate what was "allowed" to be shipped or enjoyed. The most notable origin of SALS was during the early years of accessible fandom via Star Trek, and the present homophobia and misogyny in a largely male-dominated community.

As woman became more involved in fandom spaces, the presence of 'other' ships and pairings began to increase. M/M, F/F that wasn't purely for sexual gratification, and M/O and F/O (where 'O' is Other) pairings were popular amongst women, much as they still are today.

Not only did the presence of women in a "male space" receive a not insignificantly negative reaction, so too did them filling the fandom space with their shipping content. Now; sexism and misogyny and homophobia were not entirely to blame. Again as is still very much present today, people simply Did Not Like Certain Ships or Characters. And as they still do today, they'd spread hate about them and to the people who did enjoy them.

Thus: the birth of SALS.

(In other words: I like what I like and it has fuck all to do with you. Shut up and move on.)

Back then, SALS was mostly contained to just that. Ships and characters. Since back in that era 'taboo topics' and 'sexual content' were still pretty covert, people weren't exactly arguing the merits of incest in public forums and at conventions.

However, as all things do, the internet evolved. Society evolved. Media evolved. And so too did 'SALS' evolve in keeping with the new culture and subjects present in fandom spaces.

Suddenly it wasn't just ships and characters to be advocated for. It was themes. Subjects. Kinks. Plots. The more things people found to enjoy, so too did the more things people found to hate.

'Proship' is actually grammatically pro-ship. As in; in support of shipping. This is why I always state that the modern conceptions of proshipping would more accurately be coined profiction. It is no longer just about ships, but fiction as a whole.

However; the core value and sole inherent point of being proship, SALS, profiction and so forth remains exactly the same:

[I/We] believe you have no right to harm others over the [ship/content] they create or consume and [I/we] do not have the right to dictate what is or is not allowed in fandom spaces.

That's it. Don't harass people for what they enjoy fictionally. Don't try to force them into not enjoying or being able to enjoy it.

Of course, the modern adaption varies wildly in terms of 'additional values' thanks to the evolution of the term and what it can encompass. However, there is certainly no obligation to:

Create or consume content you are uncomfortable with.

Create or consume content regarded as 'taboo' or 'triggering.' Such as incest.

Be involved with any aforementioned content beyond turning a blind eye if its not your thing.

Inherently, anyone who says they're 'neutral' on the matter but firmly believes in minding their own business is just a proshipper refusing to use the label if you're taking the term solely at its core value.

In terms of 'antis' they're just the antithesis of the above. Antis are people who generally believe that fiction is irrevocably tied in with who you are, what you believe/condone, and that real-life limitations and values should also apply to fiction.

Although, its is heavy debated and it wildly varies per individual to the degree this is taken.

(E.g: some 'antis' believe you should only write rape fic if you are a victim using it as catharsis or education. Other 'antis' believe there's absolutely no excuse or reason to write rape fic at all.)

Antis typically believe that enjoyment or being invested in content which is regarded as harmful or illegal in real life is morally unsound and reflects that you're a bad or morally unsound person.

Although I disagree, I can honestly say in some aspects I do understand this reasoning. I don't agree, but I do understand why people may come to that conclusion.

As with proshippers, antis vary from people who simply ignore and block content they don't agree with to radicals.

'Anti' is again a prefix. Although modern adoption of the term uses it as a singular signifier, it would grammatically be anti-[fandom], anti-[character], ect. As was commonly used in the past.

The rhetoric that all proshippers are pedophiles or support incest is common-spread and effective 'anti' propaganda. Similar to how so many people believe 'proship' inherently signifies that you must create and/or consume taboo or darker content.

It doesn't.

¹ Proship may also be accurately termed as simply: 'anti-harassment.' ² Its important to note the 'definition' of these terms may vary wildly depending on the individual. However, detailed above is the most historical use and evolution of the terms and their definitions.