#i am not trying to start fandom discourse by this or anything I am just very passionate about the lady (and six)

[queen0fm0nsterz]

I’m starting to think that the kid the lady is next to in that one painting (when the guest are chasing you) is probably not their daughter or someone important, maybe it was a promotional painting to show people thus “hey, look the lady is good with kids!” When the reality couldn’t be further from the truth.

DUDE I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR CENTURIESSSS THAT GIRL IS NOT HER KID BROOOO

Look with all the evidence I've gathered atp I am very convinced that the girl in the painting is her. I am compiling everything in a post to answer another anon rn but I deadass started to dislike any theory involving the concept of the Lady being a mother.

I myself have done this in the past (the parallels between her and the Pretender were not lost on me), but tbh I think she works so much better without having a kid for a multitude of reasons.

She does not like people. She wants to be left alone. To go out there and find someone who would have a child with her -- no actually scratch that, FOR HER TO FIND SOMEONE SHE TOLERATES ENOUGH TO HAVE A CHILD WITH would be out of character considering what we know about her.

^ same reason as to why I think she wouldn't adopt under normal circumstances.

^^ a child under her care would last a maximum of 3 days.

None of the children that were indicated as having relations back to her look like the girl in the painting. RCG's hair are too brownish and too long + how would she leave the Maw? Where would she find a hot air balloon near/on a submarine?, the Pretender is albino + the developers went out of their way to make her face very different from the other kids, the Flashlight Girl looks like any other girl in the Maw because they reused her model + she has 0 relevance before and after that + I think the girl in the painting was slightly remodeled and differently rendered just for the pictures like the other Ladies were resized and had their hairstyles modified.

^ These are all great in AU context, but I think canonically none of them would work/line up. The best bet for daughter title was Six and the developers went out of their way to publicly state that they are NOT related in that way.

IN SAID STATEMENT THE DEVS SAID THAT THERE IS NOTHING MOTHERLY ABOUT THE LADY.

The fact that so many people want to push the mother theory onto her really sounds like a scapegoat to not explore her character further. I would not be as upset if I hadn't seen her be dismissed as just a "heartless mother who hates her daughter/wants their beauty/is envious of her child" and yadda yadda yadda so many times.

Do you know how many times that trope has been done? And for it to be applied to such a layered, complex character as her only traits? That and being vain maybe if you're feeling generous, when the truth is that she is quite literally the most complex LN antagonist -- much like Six is the most complex protagonist. Six and the Lady are/have both been victims of fandom misogyny and it kills me to my core send tumblr post

I'm sorry for the rant. Again, I do enjoy the thought of the Lady being in a motherly role (I HAVE MADE A LADY MOM AU MYSELF) but not if it means assassinating her character. The only Lady assassination I support is the one carried out by Six.

[crescentlyautumn]

I need to get something off my chest. Very personal rant below.

I’m gonna say this once and only once: Let people write and imagine characters how they want. Canon or not. Please stop ruining fandom, but also enjoyable and happy places for people because they don’t think exactly like you.

This is not a callout post to or about any person or group. It’s legit just me feeling so close to leaving the KimChay community because of the amount of gatekeeping and harassment going on. I don’t care where you stand or how you see the characters/ship.

I legit could care less in this stance. I like pretty much everything, regardless of what I write or not. But the bullying and pettyness is reaching a breaking point for me, and I’m almost in tears over it now. Something I love is being ruined for me.

I hate drama. I hate people saying and doing stuff behind backs. I hate discourse. I know it’s inevitable. I’m aware it’s always gonna happen. But please, stop pulling me in it and directing it at me. I’m bleeding on the floor at this point.

I wanna support so many people and read so many fics. See tons of versions of these characters I love so much. But being beaten down over and over again is making me step away more and more. Can we just all do our own thing and be ok with it?

If you don’t like a version or stance, valid. But please don’t be so cruel and mean about it. Look away and move on. At this point I don’t know when I’ll touch KimChay again because I’m legit sick at my stomach over all this. I’m so tired of this battle I never wanted.

Real people are behind these screens. Real human people with real human feelings. Please remember that. Have some empathy and have some compassion. Am I a sensitive person? Yeah and I know it. But I’m also watching in real time people getting hurt over this.

Myself included. Be yourselves. Write your stories. Drop your meta. But for the love of whatever, stop throwing around so much hurt. I mean it when I say I care about everyone, even if they hate me or curse me. I hope you find peace and happiness someday.

Because I have never and will never be a person that feels satisfaction from others pain and unhappiness. So please let people be. Let people live. These are people after all. Please remember that. Stay safe.🤍💛

[pnk-spiderr]

I think the thing that annoys me the most about Juvia as a character is the fact she had the potential to be a really compelling character but was turned into a creepy, one dimensional joke

[beneathashadytree]

HEY GUYS! LONG POST HERE, BUT PLEASE READ🙏🏽

I am genuinely appalled by the discourse ongoing in the LNDS fandom these past few days—but above all, I am severely disappointed in what had started out as one of the most inclusive and sweet fandoms I’ve ever been in. I have a few things to say, so in this post I’m trying to put all my thoughts to words. Apologies if I sound harsh, but I’m genuinely livid. Also, please ignore any typos. I’m not wearing my glasses while word-vomiting.

First off, for a fandom that is composed of mostly adults, you guys have been acting terribly childishly. It’s 2024, and yet people are still unironically shaming others for “switching up on their favs” as if a person owes 2D characters any loyalty. Let people enjoy things. The novelty of Sylus and how he’s quite literally 6 months behind the other 3 love interests makes people want to catch up on the enjoyment of him all at once. He’s still such a brand new character and concept, so there’s no wonder everyone’s hyped up over him.

I’ve seen people get genuinely mad at other players and writing whole think-pieces about this. I promise you guys, the company making this game is still benefiting whether you’re pouring your money into Sylus or any one of the previous 3. We’re all happy to have an interesting character pop up among the roster now, and we’re taking our time getting to know him. Doesn’t make any of the first 3 any less loved. I genuinely don’t remember this amount of nastiness when solo events for each of the guys used to drop.

In fact, if the popularity thing is worrying you, going off MLQC (the company’s past game) the character who was last added was—eventually, after the initial hype died down—kicked off to the sidelines in most major events and was given the least content, and was the least favorite of fans.

Secondly, and this has my blood boiling, there is an insane amount of entitlement and rudeness I’ve seen on my timeline concerning how people characterize the men—particularly Rafayel.

Absolutely nothing warrants this shitty attitude towards other creators for how they depict characters in their fics. It seems you guys feel protected behind a screen and think it gives you the right to bully strangers online. Fanfiction is for fantasizing about your favs; for letting your imagination run wild. If this were a character analysis, then yes, maybe I’d agree that inaccuracies are aggravating. However, in fanfiction, there are zero rules, especially when it comes to smut.

Sexual preferences are not equivalent to a person’s whole personality—so whether he’s written as a dom, a sub, a switch, or whatever the fuck you wanna call it, this has nothing to do with his kindness, gentlemanliness, passion, power, ruthlessness, snark, or whatever minuscule aspect of his character makes up his lovely whole and matters to you.

I think this circles back to a lack of ability to separate sexual matters and personality, because how else do people interpret fics depicting him in a certain manner as them erasing his character? They might overlap, but they can very well be mutually exclusive. I’ve seen incredibly sweet and gentle men irl who were absolute doms in bed, and I’ve seen powerful and passionate men who were reduced to tears between the sheets. There is barely any correlation whatsoever, and if anything, claiming otherwise is what I consider piss-poor media literacy and reading-comprehension.

My third point is that for some reason, there have been many, many posts and replies on here where I’ve seen people just straight-up spread pure hate for the characters. Maybe this bothered me in particular because I’m an OT3 (OT4 now!) and absolutely adore all of them, but I find no logical reason for “yucking someone’s yum” when we’re talking about liking the characters of an Otome game—a genre of video games which is made to literally cater to the tastes of as many people as possible.

It’s especially disheartening to see when it’s at a time like this, when new content is about to drop, and you find in the replies of every other post/discussion at least a few people spewing hate and disgust at Sylus. Again, so many people are incredibly excited about him. Why is there a need to rain on everyone’s parade, especially in such an unsolicited manner?

This fandom originally started as a safe space for people of all races, backgrounds, genders, sexualities, and personalities to bond over our mutual love for characters. All I’ve seen on my TL lately (in terms of discussion) is negativity, and it’s such a fucking let-down. I hope whatever the fuck has happened to this fandom cools down after a bit. It’s probably exaggerated and very in-your-face rn, cause more and more people are downloading LNDS, so the probabilities of finding people being nasty are increasing. But I seriously don’t want to grow to resent this fandom and find myself distancing myself from it to protect my peace.

Let’s all remember to be kind towards other players, to not act entitled or bratty about the characters, and to try and mind our own business if we see content that doesn’t suit our tastes.

[theglassesgirl]

Calypso vs Antinous: A Tale of Two Villains

I know this is such a weird topic for me to come back for after not blogging for months, especially I’ve never spoken on this fandom here, as opposed to TikTok. But precisely BECAUSE tiktok is so limiting, even if you make various videos on a topic, someone won’t have all the context and the comment system of that app is pure ass so here I am

Calypso and Antinous are two (out of three!) of the MAJOR villains in the Wisdom Saga, however, both these villains have produced polarizing discourse that has fascinated yet confounded me. On Calypo’s end, she is a villain who many are made upset by when she is interpreted as the villain she is (in varying degrees). On Antinous’s end, he is a villain who many are made upset by when he is interpreted as anything BUT the villain he is (in various extremes). What on earth happened here?

I’ll try to dissect what has transpired as i have come to understand both situations.

PLEASE try to read through the end, but if you like, you are also more than welcome to just focus on one section if you don’t care for both discourses or how i think one affects the other. I totally get it. KEEP IN MIND, that i might speak about something you haven’t PERSONALLY seen, but as i often say in fandom, just because YOU didn’t see it, doesn’t mean it didn’t HAPPEN. It adds context to why/how certain fans are reacting as they are. You could be in one camp, and never have seen what the other camp has, so at any point where youre reading and saying to yourself “is this a thing that happened?” Consider that it did indeed, happen, and you are welcome to expand your knowledge on the subject.

ANY comments that go “you have no idea what your talking about/this isn’t true/i’ve never seen this/when did this happen(sarcastically)” will not be answered and you will be blocked, because it is clear you are not actually open to discussion. You’ve made up your mind about these characters and topics, and my time, at least, is valuable.

GENUINE questions like “I didn’t know this/when did this happen (genuine)/can you explain this point more” are more than welcome. I will absolutely entertain character interpretation as well, so long as we’re not trying to “convince” one another, as that isn’t the point of this post. These are two villains who i find fascinating and am wondering why are being treated so differently in discourse spaces.

For Calypso:

I truly and HONESTLY believe that because Calypso is a unique (and lovable! Mind you!) villain, it had led to many of her newer fans to feel uncomfortable with her role in the story. I have seen numerous sides of her discourse and have come with a few iron-clad rules: it is ONLY acceptable to call someone out if they are harassing Wangui, calypo’s VA (which has NOT happened as i am writing this out) OR if an anti-calypso comes into SOMEONE ELSE’s post saying anything like “if you like calypso then you condone her actions” because as what we sane people know, that is just a silly fallacy, OR if they start shit in a cosplayers/fanfic writer/fanartists comment section. ASIDE from these instances, i will be speaking on what none sense has transpired about how Calypso is portrayed in the Musical within her first song, and her future song, because BOTH have been used for utter bias.

A few things to debunk:

FIRST Calypso is NOT cursed to fall in love with anyone who comes across her island. That is a Percy Jackson ONLY addition that has no bearings on her actions in the musical or the original poem.

ALSO though Calypso CANONICALLY RAPES Odysseus for seven years in the original poem, the CHILDREN from that abuse only really exist in secondary sources/works. They NOT in the original poem.

Having said that:

The Ambiguity of Calypso’s actions in both of her songs means that everyone is right when they speculate on what she has done. Odysseus was trapped on her island against HIS will for seven years. He is canonically seen refusing her advances, trying to kill himself, and begging her to let him go and leave him alone. These are UNDISPUTED facts. As such, regardless of how YOU personally choose to interpret Calypso actions, she will always have a CANONICAL victim in the musical. I feel people are forgetting Odysseus when they speak on Calypso and that’s the whole point of her existence in the poem and the musical.

This leads directly into WHY there has been arguments about Calypso’s character. In the POEM, she very much sexually assaults Odysseus for seven long years. He is seen crying nightly and begging to be free. In the MUSICAL, Jorge has decided to leave the situation ambiguous - which, i have seen, does not sit well with current fandom culture. NEW fans of Calypso seem to be very adamant about NOT interpreting Calypso as a rapist, in levels that range for they’re just not comfy with it so decided not to head canon her as such, to other very concerningly speaking about rape survivors in such a way to justify liking a villain when you dont HAVE to justify liking a villain at any point at all ever.

Let’s break it down.

Those who just don’t like the idea of Calypso being a rapist in the MUSICAL are valid. It’s very easy to block and avoid those who have chosen to explore this aspect of her in the musical because they can and are allowed to. I am very pro-finding a space in fandom where you can talk about Calypso without HAVING to mention she might have raped someone. She’s still a villain for having kept Odysseus captive for seven years, but it’s not important. You are more than allowed to love villains, and without the rape aspect, Calypso’s villainy boils down to her physiological and emotionally torturing Odysseus while physically kidnapping him. That’s still ALOT of bad stuff to unpack, if you so want to. You could also not want to! It doesn’t hurt anyone, and anyone who says it does is not being intellectually honest.

The PROBLEM that I’m seeing, is that many of her newer fans…DONT want Calypso to be seen as a villain. At all. Which…is not how fandom works, I’m sorry to say.

While some EPIC fans have interpreted Calypso of being manipulative / selfish even in their most sympathetic analysis of the story (and the current song), others are treating these interpretation as wholly incorrect and somehow a form of harassment. The main caveat to this reaction appears to be, as TikTok puts it, “That Calypso DOESN’T SA Odysseus on the musical”

As we have pointed out, Calypso canonically rapes Odysseus in the poem, while it’s ambiguous in the musical. As we have ALSO pointed out, the ambiguity of the musical allow ALL INTERPRETATIONS to be correct. Something about the RAPE aspect of Calypso’s characterization in this musical, however, is the primary reason this discourse has happened.

Now, as i have said earlier. You are in your RIGHT to not head canon Calypso has a rapist in the musical. In the same vein others also have a RIGHT to head canon Calypso AS a rapist in the musical. But from what I’ve seen, it’s when others interpret Calypso as a rapist that newer Calypso fans leave comments about they’re not “interpreting the story correctly” and not “Judging calypso based on Jorge’s vision” and at first i found it funny…now it’s a bit concerning.

There are two instances that come to mind. One tiktoker made a video where she was in tears saying that it made HER SAD that people were “judging Calypso wholly based on outside sources material” which is disingenuous. As i have said before, even without the RAPE aspect of Calypso, which i will go further into what her newer fans consider “rape”, she is still an antagonist within the musical - she is a villain who keeps Odysseus against his will. To claim that they are calling her a villain for that reason alone is a blatant and useless addition to the discourse. I did not care for it at all. It would have been MUCH MORE constructive for this tiktoker to say that even though Calypso is a villain, the sexual assault is up to individual interpretation, and as all interpretations are valid, it’s better to find people who agree with your head canons rather than start fights with people who don’t share yours. This tiktoker very poorly worded the discourse as a one-sided thing where one side is wrong, and that is simply not true.

ANOTHER tiktoker, who wisely turned off comments because such discussions are impossible on the app, worryingly claimed that a line in Not Sorry for Loving You was absolute PROOF that Calypso did not “rape” Odysseus so it was wrong to interpret her as such, because, and this is a loose quotation “i don’t think Jorge would make Odysseus say something like that HAD Calypso done that to him” which unfortunately leaves fandom discourse into REAL WORLD victim discourse. Holy shit. The line she is referring to is when Odysseus calms Calypso down when she is in the middle of explaining her actions by saying “Calypso i love you, but not the way you want me to” to this tiktoker, it seems illogical for a rape victim to every say these kinds of things to their rapist…which is….NOT it. At all. Fiction, as beautiful as it is, is meant for you to QUESTION “huh…how would this impossible fictional scenario work? What makes this compelling?” It is NOT meant for you to attribute your REAL WORLD assumptions onto a FICTIONAL SCENARIO in order to justify you liking a villain character when you dont HAVE to justify it. You can like Calypso! It’s only weird when you make real-world comparisons like this because a rape victim can and HAS said as much and even more to their rapists in known history. *bonks you* dont do what this person did! Fiction allows you to explore situation that would be traumatizing outside of it in as safe and consensual way! You CANNOT and should NOT ascribe your personal biases on sensitive topics for FICTIONAL characters. That’s not how this works. “real victim wouldn’t x, so fictional wouldn’t y” is a ludicrous statement! You can’t back it up with facts! “Fictional victim does x, so i wonder if there ever would be a situation where a real victim would do y, and would like educate myself on the topic” IS what fiction was made for! OPENing your mind, not closing it for stupid reasons.

But it got me thinking. BECAUSE these fans anchor their arguments on the rape of Odysseus, even when they themselves DONT consider it, what exactly do they consider rape, and why is that ONE act Calypso may or may not do the ONLY reason to call her a villain when she is one, regardless.

Well, I’ve seen a lot of back and forth. Some anti-calypso’s are okay with the idea that Calypso is more of a “kissy-face” monster, a silly villain who, having no concept of what actual love is and what your supposed to do with someone you love, thinks hugging and kissing is the only thing on the table. It still makes this version of Calypso something of a sex pest and is still in line with sexual assault as we see Odysseus is miserable. The gravity of the situation is based entirely on funny fanfics to Odysseus canonically trying to kill himself because of Calypso’s affection. This interpretation (shockingly enough) is also hated by some new Calypso fans.

Because from what i have gathered. “SA” as used in TikTok, had been boiled down to a literal forced insertion of Odysseus’s dick in Calypso’s vagina. Not the literal words “sexual assault” which is an umbrella term for multiple things. But in this discourse “SA” has JUST been used for the ACT of rape itself. That is what new Calypso fans think is criminal. That is what they entirely base her villainy on. Because we will NEVER get confirmation on whether this happened, it’s impossible to engage with some of the newer fans, who dislike attributing Calypso with the villain title because of this one thing and this one thing alone. Any other line, from Calypso saying “and I’m sorry if i pushed you, or if i came on too strong” in her next song, or even her saying “in bed we will climb” is, for some reason, not grounds for others to be allowed to interpret her as, at the very least, assaulting Odysseus physically and sexually in a way without having to have actually raped him. It boggles my mind. Truly. But every argument i have seen has boiled down to the newer fans saying “welllllll, we dont know the context, and Odysseus said —“ when i have already explained that none of that matters. All interpretations are valid. You CANNOT say with certainty that she did or didn’t rape Odysseus. That’s the POINT. You can’t PROVE either, stop TRYING to, it’s YOUR choice and your interpretation can be backed by lyrics/official animatics, but it is hardly an absolute.

It has become a GROWING problem that in videos where Calypso is portrayed negatively, there are at least a dozen newer calypso fans who have to bring up how she is sympathetic, and therefore, not a villain. Which is not true. She is the MOST compelling villain in the epic musical, thus far.

These “fans” say that she absolutely didn’t rape Odysseus which is theory, not fact. And not a theory that can become fact. In the same way that saying she absolutely did rape is can not become fact. They appear to believe everything outside of this hypothetical act, nothing else she does is deserving of her title as a villain, and start arguments in non discourse posts about all the ways she’s sympathetic when it goes hand in hand with what makes her a compelling villain antagonist.

There’s also a newer cope saying that it’s all Zeus’s fault anyway, which has NO bearings on the conversation as, again, despite Zeus being a dick and allowing Odysseus live while not necessarily enabling him returning to Ithaca, it’s still up to Calypso on how she acts towards HER captive. And she straight up chooses violence lmao. Athena asks for “Devine intervention” to an impossible situation, regardless of if it was Zeus’s actions that led to it, it’s also up to him to “untie apprehensions” because Calypso, being a goddess, has complete control over whether Odysseus can leave and SHE won’t. She has to be ORDERD to. By a HIGHER power. Zeus.

Such argumentations as “well if YOU were in Calypso’s situation, wouldn’t you also do the same” are useless fallacies to get into, because you are NOT a goddess who owns an island and is in possession of a man who does not love you. Even if you were, guess what, it still makes you the antagonist. A villain. A knowing one or not.

In fact, since I LIKE interpretations that Calypso isn’t psychologically torturing Odysseus ON PURPOSE, i go as far as to say that her being a genuine goddess who wants love is in fact…..so much more painful, narratively. Because that means she is INCAPABLE of ever being a good person. Her loneliness and fear of being unloved makes her utterly blind to Odysseus’s misery. She HEARS him saying constantly that he misses his family, that all he hears are screams, and that SHE doesn’t know him, but she in turn CANNOT get passed this because she is, at her core, unable to, and thus accidentally triggers him constantly, is delusional about her island being paradise, AND convinces herself that her love is real (when it is not) and that Oddy will love her back if she keeps trying.

THAT is what you call a compelling villain!

As in all Calypso stories. There is NEVER a moment of clarity where Calypso realizes “if i actually love this person, i should let him go” in the musical HERMES is tasked in telling her to let him go. And she, as in all her other stories, goes on a tirade to explain/justify her actions, however you wish to see her being manipulative or honest. Regardless of how you choose to SEE calypso, at the end of the day, she has NO RIGHT to be upset at Odysseus because he was her captive. And REGARDLESS of whether Odysseus’s words are interpreted as him forgiving her, or just placating her, at the end of the day, he is her victim and she ends her next song upset that he is willingly leaving her once he got the chance. With absolutely no hope of him returning her feelings. It’s not his job to make her feel better, she IS an antagonist, and you are allowed to love her no matter how that might upset others. It is ONLY a problem when you take it to such extremes that you are in other peoples comments acting as if Calypso is a real person who needs defending. You are more than in your right to block people who come into YOUR videos accusing you of somehow being a bad person because you like a bad person. That’s not how fiction works.

Once again. My analysis of the Calypso debacle is that for some, calling Calypso a villain upsets them. Because they like her, and they are uncomfortable with the idea of liking a villain. This is a personal grievance that shouldn’t boil into fandom. Know your truth, have fun. You CAN make silly calypso videos. Many have. Her song is a bop, the meaning of the song is hilariously dark compared to the composition. Jorge did his job VERY well. Too well, that the idea of liking Calypso feels either / or when it’s not. TRUST that i would not be on the side of anyone who says “if you like calypso, youre evil”, but I HAVE seen a pattern that because Calypso is likable, than several people have made it their confused mission to tell everyone who is “mean to her” that “if you DISLIKE calypso, YOU are evil”. That’s bizarre to me. Calypso does enough evil actions in the musical to warrant that title regardless of the reasons for her actions, whether she is being purposely malicious or unconsciously so due to her lack of socialization. Being weird about real life SA survivors for a fictional character is never acceptable. For or against Calypso, whether she is a rapist or not, it is up to YOU to find like minded people who share your interpretation, not to argue with people who disagree with you in their own space. She isn’t real. Get over it.

ANYONE WHO HARASSES WAGNUI, COSPLAYERS, OR GOES INTO POSITIVE CALYPSO INTERPRETATION SPACES TO BE PURPOSELY MEAN* ARE WRONG. Otherwise. Leave them alone, they are as valid as you are. “Defending” a character is a waste of time when you could be creating for them. Calypso is a compelling villian antagonist regardless of how uwu or vile you choose to make her. Thus is the beauty of fiction.

(*purposely mean, would, logically, be someone calling you an idiot or a rape apologist for headcanoning her in a positive way. The ideal interaction with a negative calypso interpreter would be “i dont see her this way, but i understand/like your headcanon”)

WHICH BRINGS US TO Antinous:

Hilariously enough. Antinous has the complete INVERSE problem as Calypso, which was also detailed in her section for fairness sake at multiple points, and this problem is much easier to understand. Antinous is a villian antagonist in the musical Epic, and in his debut in the wisdom saga, he is shown (like calypso) to be in direct opposition to Telemachus and Penelope’s goal.

He alludes to sexual assault much more clearly than calypso. He calls Penelope a tramp to her son’s face AND suggests he let them into her room “so [they] can have fun with her” which is in the same vein as calypso saying “soon in bed we will climb” to Odysseus later on that “you (Odysseus) are mine all mine” in her own song. Like calypso, it is told to us that Antinous has been having this kind of vibe for FIVE YEARS* (a fan pointed this out to me! read here🙏🏼) as opposed to calypso’s seven years. Everyone is, usually, in agreement that Antinous is a villain in the wisdom saga and in the overall Epic musical.

Antinous’s VA is ON TikTok, and has spoken about how happy he is that fans consider him a talented person who did a spectacular rendition of such a villainous character. AND YET.

Inversely from what we saw in the Calypso section, where some of her fans are against the notion of her being portrayed as the antagonist she is, for Antinous we have MANY fans claiming that others are not ALLOWED to portray him as anything BUT an antagonist. Unlike with Calypso, where people circularly argue that her allusions to sexual assault are “too ambigous” and lead to much senseless debate on whether you’re “allowed” to like her or call her a villian, with ANTINOUS, there is this claim that he ABSOLUTELY is alluded to sexual assault and therefore, cannot be liked or treated as anything other than a villain.

As i have discussed AT LENGTH in Calypso’s section, this argumentation is pure fallacy.

There have been NUMEROUS thirst videos that have rightfully said that DESPITE the actions of the character, they still think Antinous is hot and likable (the Gaston affect, if you will). Even WITHOUT the disclaimer, it is OF COURSE understood that Antinous fans are NOT rape apologists. That is a ridiculous assumption that serves only to kill any interpretation that someone else can rightfully have.

It’s utterly devoid of nuance or actual knowledge of how to play within fandom and interact w characters.

There have been SEVERAL posts calling Antinous fans delusional for liking him and “reminding” the fandom that he is a bad guy. This serves no purpose and is utterly useless to the discourse. Antinous being a bad guy is not debated. This is factual. It doesn’t (or shouldn’t, because we cannot speak in absolutes) hurt anyone’s feelings to see an Antinous videos depicting him as the villain he is. Like with Calypso it is ONLY acceptable to call someone out if they are harassing Ayron Alexander, Antinous’s VA (which has NOT happened as i am writing this out) OR if an anti-Antinous comes into SOMEONE ELSE’s post saying anything like “if you like Antinous then you condone his actions” because as what we sane people know, that is just a silly fallacy, OR if they start shit in a cosplayers/fanfic writer/fanartists comment section.

Otherwise. Who cares that someone is saying Antinous is a villain? Block the no fun police and enjoy analysis from others who choose to see him purely as what he is, if you want. If you dont, block them to, it’s your space. You have a RIGHT to headcanon Antinous however you want, even make up AUs for him where he’s nice or lives and gets a happy ending, SO LONG AS you’re not in other people’s posts going actually Antie is my uwu child and he did nothing wrong. Cuz then youre just being dumb. And annoying. Fandom is already impatient with genuine disagreement, being a smart ass gets your head dunked in a toilet. I used to think this was common sense.

(And in case you didn’t read the Calypso section, or didn’t see enough of it there, this IS the appropriate response to people who address newer fans of her as rape apologists too, its in her section, i just also thought it was important to touch on the stranger phenomena of her other fans refusing to call her a villain because it makes them personally uncomfortable - it’s very interesting as Calypso is a female antagonist while Antinous being a male antagonist is being treated very differently for the same subject. In any case, it’s a disservice to either character and Jorge’s narrative to get upset about the very real fact that BOTH of these characters are villain antagonists.)

The very CURRENT discourse surrounding Antinous is that he was recently shipped with Telemachus.

The animator for Apollo’s section of God Games was harassed to such a point that she had to make a public apology regarding her ALTERNATE UNIVERSE scenario. And i, personally, think that’s bullshit.

There have been accusations that she was being insensitive to sexual assault survivors, and that she made a dark joke, all of which she addressed in her apology IN ADDITION to her explaining that she is ALSO a survivor of child sexual assault. She took down her work. DESPITE all of this, there are still others who continue to harass her, and claim that they dont want “a rape creator” in THEIR fandom. To those people: you don’t speak for any of us. In the same way you can claim not to believe that the animator is a survivor, i have no reason to consider your concerns in any way shape or form as being in service of victims. It is absolutely not your call, when blocking and scrolling on will ALWAYS be an option for YOU.

Even in the event someone writes Antonio’s fan fiction keeping his canon personality and characterization in a non-canon divergent way it is not grounds to harass people.

In addition to this animator, there have been SEVERAL Antinous shippers who have expressed disappointment that she was essentially harassed into a corner, as they also liked the ship and the AU she created. These people are NOT “weird” they are allowed to express themselves creatively, and if you disagree, dont even bother with leaving any sort of response — i wont read it, my time is important. Stay in your echo chamber. Even if it wasn’t an AU, and someone wants to write for Antinous as he is in the narrative, they are more than allowed to do so. Dark fiction isn’t going to traumatize you or give you cooties. Grow up.

I am MUCH more willing to ride with Antinous shippers than i ever will be with fans who attempt to control how a character is interpreted by others. Because to ship Antinous with anyone, AU or otherwise, you have to have an UNDERSTANDING of why this would be a compelling thing to write/make fanart for. He is an evil character, and it would be FASCINATING to see him in fictional scenarios that (like in the calypso section) lead us to as WHY this would be an appealing and interesting take on someone. It’s OKAY to do it in fiction. He isn’t REAL. It’s not hurting EVERYONE. And more so than with calypso, it IS understood that Antinous HAS victims in Penelope and Telemachus There’s no senseless debate on what he is, a villain, no one is arguing he is a uwu babygirl so please sympathize w him, it’s inherently understood even among his FANS.

This is why find Antonio’s and Calypso’s discourses so polarizing. Because no one is getting offended or arguing that Antinous only acts villainously because of some tragic backstory or sympathetic reason. It would be absurd to.

That’s the appeal of a lovable villain. Because like Calypso, Antinous IS lovable, but in such a different way that you have fans treating both characters as if they’re polar opposite when at the very LEAST, there’s on the same bracket, just different ends of them. Telemachus/Penelope and Odysseus’s plights are being MIRRORED in parallel.

THAT is what floors me about these two discourses. That they are functionally THE SAME yet are being treating as if they aren’t. I’m positive that there is an Antinous fan who detests Calypso in the same way there is a Calypso fan who detests Antinous. These are called biases. Once you KNOW your own bias, it is up to YOU to act right according to them.

You are responsible for your OWN fyp.

The Epic fandom had yet to experience such backwards discourse as this, and I wouldn’t expect Jorge or any of the VAs to dignify such trivial discourse with a response. If you’re the type to bring it up to them, you’re being awful. The popular fandom Epic tiktokers are already way too involved as it is. And even they are getting things wrong.

It almost feels remiss to say that in the NARRATIVE of the musical, both Calypso and Antinous are villian antagonists, while outside of the narrative they become dolls you can play with however you like, so long as we are not in each others comments being obtuse. I don’t expect any of my essay to even make it to a larger part of the fandom. But i HAD to get my ideas written down, because if you don’t see someone else connecting the dots you have, you have to present them yourself. Very “can’t we all just get along?” But hopefully, not as insufferable nor one-sides as others might have been. I tried to bring up ideas/points that i have not seen discussed about these two villains and why they seem to connect and go hand in hand.

Why is Calypso, as a female antagonist, given more grace than Antinous, a male antagonist, who is very firmly given none at all. It very well could be just how they were presented, and if so, ask yourself WHY these villains were presented so differently. What purpose do they serve? What are they trying to accomplish? These are questions more suited for actual fandom collaboration that is being drowned out by circular arguements. It feels like homework, instead of knee-jerk reacting to interpretations unlike your own.

To ME, these two characters are two sides of the same coin. (though I DO think it’s funny that the NEUTRAL phrase to refer to either character is “I hate them BUT” because in reasonable fandoms, this is understood inherently….but in this fandom such decorum seems to be lost? For some reason?? Wisdom saga has brought out a lack of wisdom, I fear.) This is the kind of purity culture that suggest you can’t LIKE a character of their a villain, so you go out of your way to argue they aren’t, or that no one else should like them: that’s bonkers. You might disagree and it might even upset you, but that’s a you problem to have.

Having said that, and if you are POSITIVE that you want to engage in conversation with me, you are welcome to do so.

[antimony-medusa]

Gonna be honest with you though if someone outright says “don’t ship my character with other people” or something to that extent regarding smut or whatever I don’t think there should be any ambiguity

I get your point about the nature of fanfic being inherently encroaching upon people’s images so that levity should be extended to otherwise uncommon avenues but I really believe hardline boundaries should be respected, end of, no discussion. If I see people violating creators’ boundaries for their characters Or themselves (and these can be intertwined, it’s not up to the audience to pick apart their boundaries, cuz I’ve seen people try to do that) I’m not going to judge them fairly and I feel like neither should you.

Lines can be crossed and intimacy (not even necessarily romantic!) is a very different monster than the other avenues of storytelling because of how it involves real life relationships seeping into character relationships. Its’s uncommon for people to be like “I wrote A’s character being tortured because I feel like A is tortured in real life” but they Can and Often do that with ship work. So I don’t know, I feel like you’re not affording this the right nuance.

Alright, so, this is another post I'm gonna slap with a discourse and long post warning right away, buckle in.

Yeah, I hear what you're saying, and this is not an uncommon opinion to have! It's still the opinion of twitter/x so far as I know, and I think it's probably the opinion of the bulk of dsmp fans here, as well. I know my posts get notes once they start circulating in hermitblr, but I don't kid myself that I have the majority view. I am posting to explain my views expressly because I know a lot of people don't agree with me!

And in this case we do have a difference of opinion. There's two sort of points as I see it in your posts— we have hardline boundaries about shipping/nsfw from some people, and everyone in the fandom should be abiding by those no exceptions or be thrown out of the fandom; and we have shipping boundaries but not boundaries for other things because shipping is uniquely boundary-crossing and terrible and invasive, in contrast to anything else we can do in fandom.

Taking the second part first, I just don't think that's true. Let's not forget, boundaries discourse started with SMPLive and SMPronpa, and it was not the shipping that caused the discussion, it was the death games. The first real fandom reckoning we had with the notion of boundaries as mcyt fandom was over gore and murder and portraying people in violent ways. Shipping was barely a blip on the radar. The way the discourse has developed now, shipping is framed as the absolute worst thing anyone could ever do with your public image, and everything else is fine, but that is not the case for everyone. Recently the Pirates SMP creators were asked repeatedly for their boundaries (bothered on twitter, really) until they gave them and thus we saw people being fine with shipping but not wanting family dynamic, or being against both shipping and gore, or being fine with shipping but not wanting to be gender bent or trans headcanoned, etc. Not everyone feels the same way about the same things, despite the us-american cultural viewpoint that romance and sexualization is uniquely bad but gore and torture is fine, that everything else is fine.

Like, if we're looking at DSMP, I think there are a lot of creators who would feel just as strongly if not stronger about fics in which their character died of a terminal illness than they would about a fic in which they kiss someone, for understandable reasons. But I see those tropes in the tags regularly!

I think if we are honest with ourselves, if we are going to hardline boundaries about things that are uniquely invasive or bad to do to a creator's character with the view that we are putting all of this up for the creator's approval, we need to accept that this excludes us from writing anything where a character is abusive or is tortured or dies of a terminal illness or is psychologically broken or is age regressed or is neurodivergent or is queer if the cc is straight or trans if the cc is cis or cis if the cc is trans or straight if they're gay— the list of things that would be weird to do in the face of the real guy is really long. And it has most of our favourite tropes on it!

I love writing autistic philza. It would be really fuckin' weird to go up to Philza and tell him about how I write his character as whumped and autistic. Come on now. (But that's within boundaries, so that's— fine? I really don't think it's fine!)

Which is why my stance is that we should be thinking critically about these things, and keeping the fandom seperate from the creators. Some of these things are just not for the creators. They're fine but they shouldn't go on twitter. Y'know?

The idea that shipping draws uniquely on the real person and leads to invasive behaviour but nothing else does— that nobody does "I wrote A being tortured because I think A is tortured in real life"— Look. I have been in the fandom a long time. I remember how all the abused tommy narratives fed right into people assuming his family in real life were abusive— and talking about this on twitter! Where he and his family could see! People did this with WIlbur and Techno too!

I remember people reading about trans tommy and then truthing that the creator either was transmasc or was going to come out as transfemme any day now, publically, on twitter and in his chat. I have seen people she/her tubbo to his face on twitter, with fancams. I have been in chat when people who have clearly assigned Phil "dad" start asking WILDLY invasive things in TTS. If you think that shipping is the only fandom behaviour that can lead to people drawing directly from the streamers for their work and treating the creators weirdly about it, you simply have not been paying attention.

The way the fandom insists on treating benchtrio as children despite the fact that they're almost twenty and viciously attacking their friends for treating them as adults and chiding tommy and tubbo and ranboo for inappropriate behaviour. The list goes ON.

So. The recieved DSMP wisdom is that we should TTS the streamers to check if it's okay if we write a fic in which they die of cancer. We should DM them on instagram to ask if it's okay if we write them as a gender or sexual identity they don't share. We should show up in their twitter mentions to ask if it's okay if we write them as a physically abusive parent.

No????????

My view on that is that it is frankly bizzare it is that we have decided that "asking creators for detailed instructions regarding porn or gore" (especially in TTS! When they're fucking at WORK and can't step away! Stop doing this to the hermits!) is normal and fine and responsible but "post your shit in appropriate places and leave the creators out of it" will make you a monster.

Once again, the experience of someone coming up and saying "i think of you as age regressed" and someone saying "i found this fic where you're age regressed" and someone saying "can I write a fic where you're age regressed" is not that different. In all cases you know that the person has been thinking about it and putting it out there, and in all cases you didnt seek out this information, it was brought to you. In all cases it's weird. Just do not bring this information up to them!

If you just think about it for a while, you see that there is an entire host of things that would be weird to force into the view of a creator, especially when you consider that half the time we got these clips from TTS information when we have no idea if the person answering knew the context of what they were being asked, if they were specifically aware of the creator/cc divide that the fandom works with, or if they felt pressured into it. Oh yeah, let's take a TTS clip from Tubbo when it was 2 in the morning for him and he was deep in a minecraft mod when someone asked him about alters and delusions and he was like "oh you mean like— when they can't help it? I guess that's fine." That definately counts as freely given, reversible, informed, enthusiastic and specific consent to show him anything we want at all times forever. That's never going to make him uncomfortable.

Think a little here.

So I think there's a lot of the fandom that we should not be putting up for the approval of the creators, and if we don't have a firm answer on if they would like potential edge cases, we should probably be thinking about it and keeping it away from them (and I would err on the side of caution), we should NOT be showing up in the TTS to ask them about narratives in which they're institutionalized, or making them a GOP conservative in fiction, or if Wilbur was canon about seeing them as a bottom, or whatever bizzare thing someone is cooking up now. Honestly if you think to yourself "I don't know if the creator would like seeing this", I would be much more comfortable if the two choices we were picking between there were "simply don't write it" or "write it but keep it away from them", and "harass the creator for an answer on this subject and only write it if they say yes" never entered the equation at all.

And to return to your first point, if we already have a class of fiction that we are keeping away from the creators because basic intellectual curiosity would show that it would be weird to show someone, I don't think it's the end of the world to go "okay, creator doesn't like NSFW, so we also keep the NSFW away from them, keep this shit off twitter, block them if you create it, don't show it to them" and then we archive lock it and continue on our little weirdo on the internet ways.

Now, I don't expect to convince you of this, the phrasing of your post does not indicate that you're open to discussion on this topic. That's fine. Nobody has to agree with me. But I grew up conservative christian, and I have already had people try and get me to throw people out of the community for their perceived sins where I was like "well, I really don't think this is that bad", and I'm really resistant to being forced to do that again. I don't think it's a healthy way to run a fandom, to be shunning people for what they're doing in fiction. Harassing creators in chat? Sure, I will block them from my events as untrustworthy. That's hurting someone in the real world. Writing something that I don't vibe with privately on the archive for an audience of 50 people? That is not doing harm to real people. As long as they're not showing it to the creators, I don't count that as offensive.

How's that for nuance.

[destinationtoast]

Come join the Fandom Data Projects community! (You don't need to have a project or any relevant background... just curiosity 🤓)

Apparently I can't reblog the community post I made outside the community, so to quote myself:

Hello, fans of fandom data science, fandom research, fandom stats, fandom surveys, fandom data visualization, and everything related! 🪭📊📈📋📓🎉🎉🎉 I run a blog called @toastystats , and I love fandom data! I am starting this community for folks with a personal or academic curiosity about fans/fanworks and a desire to answer questions with data 🧑‍🔬. All of the following are welcome here: * Sharing questions about fandom and brainstorming ways to gather relevant data; * Sharing analyses & insights; * Trading tips on how to gather or analyze data; * Chatting about methods; * Asking for volunteers to participate in surveys or help gather data; * Anything else related!

Learners and lurkers are welcome. Drama and discourse are not; please be thoughtful and generous in how you participate in the group, and try not to stir controversy. (That's not to say there aren't valid fandom research topics that involve controversies -- but the goal of this space is to focus on people helping each other with research and learning in a low stress environment.)

(Honestly I'm starting this partly because I'm curious about the Tumblr community feature, and I like to learn by trying things. 🤓 We'll see how this goes.)

[gulfiya007]

On lukola fandom

Here’s some venting about the lukola fandom, and its ways, and consequences, from an ordinary polin, Bridgerton and Luke fan.

Starting from the way Luke’s loved ones and friends are treated by its adherents. Especially his girlfriend. The hate towards her is visceral. The whole phenomenon of bullying and stalking someone just for existing and posting on their SM account from time to time probably needs to be studied by social studies scholars and parasocial relationship specialists, cause it’s new heights apparently.

So, what if she’s proud of Luke as her boyfriend and wants to show it? What if she wants to mark her territory sometimes, to which she has a right btw? What if she trolls haters and delusional IRL shippers occasionally? Hers is probably the most relatable behavior. I myself, as an introvert millennial who doesn’t run one single SM account and cringe from the exhibitionist nature of current SM posting practices, still recognize that there’s nothing unusual about that kind of posting per se. Why was Luke’s former gf, Jade, allowed to post him all the time (which is totally alright btw), but Antonia hinting at having, say, a dinner with Luke is shady, attention-seeking, desperate, needy and despicable?

It's not that I care particularly about her. In fact, I couldn’t care less if she’s replaced by Luke with some other woman in a couple of months or if she is his future wife and mother to his kids. I still believe, regardless of her status in the relationship, she deserves basic respect and decent treatment as a human being that we know pretty much nothing about. She does not deserve the vilification and demonization that she gets.

Luke too, has a right to privacy and respect for his personal choices that are nobody’s business. He owes no one anything in terms of disclosing his dating life and confirming his relationships. If for someone, Luke bringing the girl to almost all his travels and events with himself, is not a proof or statement in and of itself about her being his girlfriend, then that’s on them. No amount of intentional misreading and skewed takes on photos will trump this simple fact.

Also please don’t bring up virtue signaling and other cancel culture stupidities, such as moral judgements passed on Luke and his close ones for political or other values purportedly held by them, of which we in fact know zilch. It’s clear that this is just another useful tool in a shipping crusade.

Nicola too, deserves, for a change, to have her numerous statements taken seriously. Let alone, privacy. She’s being stalked by her so-called fans to insanity. I am sure she, to put it mildly, is uncomfortable about her “queen” and “goddess” status among the cultists, and being a projection vessel for a myriad of sad women. Cause she knows very well this type of passionate idolatry is an inch away from hate, and the plus sign switches to a minus sign the minute she does something not to their liking, a wrong brand or person supported, or not enough disciplining of Luke is exercised. The most delusional thing about lukolas is them truly believing themselves to be Nic’s or Luke’s fans.

Which brings us to the crux of the matter. That IRL shipping is bad, period. Some lukola bloggers on tumblr, TT and IG half-heartedly try to reign in and admonish the more unhinged segment of the fandom by telling them to behave and not bring their bul..t to the actors' feet. However, this is what the lukola discourse platforms, by simply existing, still do - breed crazy fan behavior. Because the problem lies in the belief system itself. No amount of reservations, house-keeping and discipline by lukola discourse 'leaders' will do away with the tenets and premises of this religion that seep through and twist every discussion and speculation about the figures involved (Luke, Nic, etc). Since every reasoning should work towards a certain end goal, all means and distortions are good to achieve it. Finding faults with Luke's character and behavior and demanding a 'redemption' from him, hating and criticizing Luke's friends and family, attributing motivations to the actors and their loved ones that best suit theories, online stalking etc. A myth about Luke ever publicly stating he was single during promo, a ridiculous myth about Bridgerton cast and showrunners shipping lukola (news flash – nobody in the cast cares about their co-stars’ private lives, stop the kindergarten), or the “papgate” affecting in any way Luke’s job prospects. Myths upon myths that build the house of cards of the lukola dogma. I myself wouldn’t care a damn about this fandom if it really contained itself to its close corners and group chats, however, unsurprisingly, they spill over in a grand fashion and permeate all discourse.

You really believe the innocent delulu fangirling has no by-products? These are the staple manifestations of the lukola and of any IRL shipping fandom, and popular lukola theorists are pretty successful in justifying and reinforcing them. And it should not be surprising that some followers, the most zealous and stupid ones, take it too far and actually harass people and be annoying in SM.

As a Luke and polin fan, I am annoyed by this, but I am 100% sure this sh*t is affecting the actors, and you all can kiss goodbye to the chemistry between Luke and Nic naturally displayed during promo. I am sure polin will not be affected, for L and N are excellent actors and friends, but you all soon will look sadly back to S3 promo tour as magic that will never come back.

[fruitgummies01]

I HATE COMING ON HERE TO RANT BUT......

*Sigh* I had every intention of coming on here and only raving about the Are You Sure?! Photobook I finally got in the mail last week. It's beautiful, the pictures look incredible, I love the feel of the actual pages of the book, I adore all of the additional stickers and extra pictures that you get outside of the photobook itself, all of the behind the scenes footage… I just truly love the quality and the care at which it was all put together. It really is incredible!! It was absolutely worth the money, but since coming back on here, now I'm feeling like I need to rant about something else.

I've said it before on one of my other posts but the hate on youtube towards anything having to do with Jimin and Jungkook's friendship is just so bad (as well as all the hate directed towards Jimin but that's for another time). Reactors (those that genuinely care for the boys and aren't just doing it to grow their channel so they start reacting to different content all together) who dare to react to Jikook's bond are being bombarded with lies, hate, and threats. I'm not going to name channels here, but I also personally think it's messed up for reactors (yes, multiple channels at this point) to openly admit that they will be deleting jikook content from their channel, while leaving up all the other ship/not ship content of all the other members. This happens frequently in the fandom. Fans and non fans aren't "allowed" to mention jikook so they go ignored despite all of their cute content together, reactors don't react to them, and if they do they get massively spammed with hate until they just stop reacting to them, but will continue reacting to other dynamics within BTS. And due to the lack of content, some new fans who are discovering the group don't even know about their friendship because everyone is afraid to talk about it (and it becomes easier unfortunately to be swept up in lies, false stories, and fan manipulation). The cycle just repeats and repeats and repeats.

But what is the end goal, because Jimin and Jungkook will be discharged from the military together, will continue to be in BTS together, in each other's lives, and continue to travel and do things together, so what is the point? People may get reactors to pretend like the bond between Jimin and JK doesn't exist, but no matter how much these awful people try, it's definitely NOT going to effect Jikook's relationship in real life, soooo?? All of this negative discourse will not affect any Jikook interactions in the future when BTS reunites. Hell just the other day Jimin and Jungkook were on weverse replying to each other (even though they were probably next to each other lol) being excited for Hobi's discharge, while their haters screamed about Jimin wanting attention. Jimin and JK are going to do what they want to do, like they've always done, and yelling at random people on the internet to get them to delete their content won't change that 😭.

Anyway to circle back to the beginning, I was looking through the AYS?! Photobook, and it made me so sad that a friendship and bond like the one Jimin and JK have is surrounded by so much online negativity and fans can't really talk about it freely like the other friendships in BTS, but it really just makes me realize how much more special Are You Sure?! is. They probably knew what the reaction would be from certain fans, and still did it anyway because it made them happy to do it and to be together. It's a beautiful photobook, filled with so many of their memories from the show (I wonder what happened to all the photos they took on their disposable camera haha), and I am again so thankful that Are You Sure?! exists as it does. A place where fans can see their relationship in a new and unique way outside of the group dynamic, and it allows people to see for themselves what an amazing bond they have. I also really wanted to say thank you to all the people who are fighting for them in these toxic spaces, it can't be easy, but the support you guys continue to show is probably why their are a few accounts out there still celebrating them and their moments. And I appreciate your content. 🥺❤️

[thowawayuntilfurthernotice]

So a Helluva Boss fan blog responded to one of my critical posts regarding the show and unlike other fan responses I’ve gotten in the past year, this one was interesting. 

Not in that it managed to change my opinion about the show’s writing or Viv, but with how long winded it was. Seriously, it was the length of an average YouTube essay script. And while I was skimming through it, I began to wonder “Why is this fandom so defensive?”

Fans arguing about media online isn’t anything new, most fandoms these days are riddled with infighting, shipping discourse and pro shippers vs antis drama. But Viv’s fanbase is different in that they will go above and beyond when it comes to defending the show against criticism. 

I’m often labeled a “Viv anti” by her fans because I’m critical of her and her shows, which is hilarious given that outside of this blog, I rarely (if ever) discuss Viv or her shows. But because I’m critical of Viv and her shows, I’m labeled an “anti” by her fans. 

Now yes, I am aware that the reason why Viv’s fans see all criticism as negative is because Viv herself is incapable of accepting any criticism, but this fandom isn’t just satisfied with telling you that you’re wrong about their favorite show, they’re trying to convince you that Viv’s shows are works of genuine art that cannot be criticized. 

Look, I get people being passionate about the stuff that they like and I totally get criticizing genuine bad takes regarding media, but when you’re sending me an entire essay all because I criticized a dumb demon cartoon, then I’m going to start to question what made you this defensive to begin with. 

And I’m saying all this as someone who likes a lot of universally despised media. I mean, for fuck’s sake, I still watch Rick and Morty. But I never felt the need to defend any of the stuff I like from online criticism because nine times out of ten, said criticism doesn’t ruin my enjoyment of the thing that I like. 

Hell, I’m even critical of the stuff that I like. Criticism isn’t this evil thing that needs to be extinguished whenever it rears its ugly head, it’s just a part of life. 

Nobody likes dealing with criticism or getting criticized, but it’s something we all have to learn to deal with sooner or later. And here’s the thing, I’m not criticizing Viv or her shows in the vain attempt that she might listen to said criticism, it’s clear that she’s incapable of handling criticism. I criticize Viv because it’s legitimately shocking how much stuff people let her get away with. 

If any other creator acted the way she did or did the same things she did, the entire internet would collectively clutch their pearls in real time. But because it’s Viv, people just look the other way. 

Viv’s fanbase is so obsessed with maintaining the “indie darling” narrative that they’re letting Viv get away with so much egregious shit. 

[devildomwriter]

*TW*- i*cest, r*pe, g*re, p*dophilia, some general discourse

Ok so I am trying to ask this in the most respectful way because I don't wanna snowball this into a huge discourse; but I wonder if you've been seeing the Dark Content Discourse here on Tumblr?

It basically entails that despite your personal preferences, attacking/ demeaning other ppl who create/ consume dark content is a big no no because it's their safe space to be able to explore these topics. This includes all sort of stuff like i*cest, r*pe, g*re and even p*dophilia. Now you may not agree with any of these things, most ppl don't, and they might disgust you; which is totally fine. But there is a huge leap b/w something that is fictional and something that is real.

Fictional characters are literal lines on a paper. Doing anything with a fictional child does not mean you are harming a REAL child. This might still disgust you and that's fine too. You can block that person so you don't have to look at it again but to call everyone like this and start a campaign against them is well...

I just want you to know that I am not defending that person. I didn't even know them at all before this...Neither I am advocating for anything they are saying or confirming/claiming that they are good irl. I don't know them.

I just want you look at this from a different perspective and know your thoughts about this ordeal. Like for one moment step away from your pre-existing feelings and bias and look at this objectively. Everyone likes something that's even a lil problematic, so if we went on these campaigns every time, literally no one will be left in fandom. I don't agree with p*dophilia but I don't agree with this either...AGAIN THIS IS NOT MEANT TO CONDONE ANY OF THIS BEHAVIOUR! But to paint someone as a bad person for things they do in fiction in their safe space no matter how problematic, is somewhat disconcerting.

I again wanna say that this is not any hate against you or anyone else. I don't want to cause any discourse myself . I think you are an amazing writer and a valuable member in our fandom. Which is why it's important to me to hear your stance on this. But if you'd rather not answer this at all that's fine too! :>

I appreciate your perspective and I sometimes enjoy certain dark content as long as they warn others but pedophilia— fictional or not— should never be written/glorified/accepted. If it’s written as a horrible incident or traumatic backstory (like Lolita) then I understand why it’s written but glorifying or romanticizing it in any way is unacceptable.

If no one is left in the fandom after going on these “witch hunts” then the fandom is toxic, preditory, and unsafe.

As for the huge leap between fiction and reality, everything starts as a thought or fantasy. The more you think about it the more likely you are to commit or watch such an act.

Tumblr should under no circumstances be a safe place for pedophiles.

[anistarrose]

So the thing is, if people ship characters who are explicitly not into romance (whether aromantic or otherwise), that ultimately doesn't affect me on a level beyond "annoyance" — I can blacklist tags, and blacklist or block people who don't tag it. What I have to ask myself every time I see these things, however, is this:

"Does this reflect how this person feels about romance-averse people in real life? Does this reflect how this person treats romance-averse people in real life?"

Because how someone engages with fiction doesn't have to be a reflection of how they treat real people, obviously — and in this case, I would of course hope that it isn't. But if you know anything about what being aromantic is like, in real life or on the Internet... you'll understand why I'm not optimistic.

Thinking two characters are so cute together that you reject a bunch of their characterization to make it happen is just annoying, not a crime! But the second you make the leap to telling a real human person things like:

"I don't care how much you say you're not interested, because you just won't realize that you and X would make such a cute couple,"

or:

"I don't care how much you say you're not interested, because you're clearly just in denial which the Right Person has to come along and fix,"

or:

"But — but — but not falling in love is just so tragic! I want you to be happy, not sad and lonely your whole life!"

like the rationales that apparently motivate so many people to ship? Then that has crossed the line into harming real people.

I don't actually think that shipping aromantic characters is the primary cause in the cause-effect diagram, when it comes to the correlating the shipping with "likelihood to say these terrible, invalidating, autonomy-undermining things to real people." Precisely, I don't think it's a cause to a meaningful degree when you compare with the opposite direction — I think people who say these things to real aromantics (or anyone else who just isn't interested!), because of what they think about these real people, are in turn more likely to think amatonormative things about fictional characters. I think that there exists a feedback loop to some extent, because fiction can influence people's beliefs to some degree, but it's not symmetric. Real-life amatonormativity causes mass amatonormativity in fandom spaces.

So... at this point, do you see why aromantic people in fandom get a little defensive about aro characters, and about other characters who overlap with aro experiences? You see why we get kind of pissy when people very selectively throw a very specific part of their characterization out the window? You see why we maybe don't want to associate with those people? Why it makes us so uncomfortable?

"Stop shipping romance-repulsed characters," in my opinion, is a understandable outcry from the community that I obviously sympathize with — but it nevertheless conceals the core of the issue, especially from non-aromantics who aren't living with amatonormativity shoved down their throats at all times, and therefore might not be able to read between the lines. At the core, this isn't actually a debate about the morality of shipping in fiction, despite overlap with that discourse on the surface.

The real cry for change isn't "stop shipping that character." It's "start accepting me for who I am, without trying to either undermine or mourn it at every opportunity." Because at the moment, the overlap between people who erase fictional aromanticism and real aromanticism is significant — and even where they don't overlap, you know what? Romance-averse folks just trying to live in peace can't fucking tell the difference.

[rat-rambles]

Ok Alastor shippers of all sorts, I'm going to put in my two cents and before I get into I'm a pro shipper all around just don't be mean to each other and tags are there for a reason.

My credentials: I'm an gray ace, aro person who's been around Fandom a very long time. Personally I've been initiated with the “but al is ace aro so you can't ship him” discourse and first off that's not true both because we can date -I Have a long term Partner- and because I've explored a lot of my queer identity through Fandom and fanfics and I think others should get the chance to do the same. I'm sure a lot of people will learn they’re ace aro because of alastor. That being said ik a lot of you writers out there aren't ace aro and are new to the topic so I'm going to go over some of my personal suggestions of how you could make Canon compliant works. (And if you do any or find any please send to me I'd love to see it)

Oblivious Alastor

Canonically this man doesn't know he's an ace in the hole. And I don't believe an egomaniac like him would assume that there's anything “different” about himself. ik when I was a baby ace I thought everyone was just being dramatic basically before realizing I was the exception. I can see this going 2 ways.

Radiostatic (pre show): vox is obviously completely smitten with al and al sees dating a more powerful overlord as an advantage(which vox in the past was the more powerful of the two). And Al starts getting slowly more and more uncomfortable and vox gets pushy in a very manipulative way.

Radioapple: enemies to friends to lovers? After Al and Luci become close friends, Luci starts to catch feelings for Al and Al agrees to date him seeing as he is fond of him and he's a very powerful ally so why wouldn't Al date him? As the relationship progresses they’re both confused by Alastor's behavior. Luci tries to be respectful. You know maybe he's just very against pda. And al doesnt understand why he's not feeling the things he's meant to.

I can see Al reverse heteronormativity- ing his way into assuming he's gay because he's NOT straight.

Malicious intent

Same as the last one except Al knows he doesn't have feelings for them like that and is trying to be toxic and uses them. IE what if Al was a gold digger actually.

Maybe I am in love?

Al actually thinks that he MUST be feeling a romantic connection because this is the closest he's ever been to someone and once again, gets steadily more confused as he realizes what he and his partner are experiencing is different.

All of these can end in nice queer platonic bliss and I think any story where Al and his partner discover he's ace after establishing the relationship is inherently interesting.

Last note some ace vocabulary

Ace and aro are a spectrum. Typically with ace people they will self identify as either sex positive, sex negative, or sex neutral. With Al it's generally head cannoned that he's sex negative but that's not explicitly Cannon and sex positive and neutral aces are valid.

Sex negative: is self explanatory it's what everyone thinks aces are; I don't want sex ever the idea grosses me out ect.

Sex neutral: is when someone doesn't have the desire for sex but isn't repulsed by it either. If they are in a relationship and their partner wants to have sex they’re open to it but don't expect initiation on their part.

Sex positive: people have a hard time understanding this because it's the seperating of the need for sex from the want. Typically if a sex positive ace were to never have sex again they'd die happy but if they have a willing partner they are happy to participate. It builds intimacy. It feels good, it's nice but it's not the same as being allo and having that cardinal lust.

note: please know what type your head cannoning Al as in your works when writing it, although people of course can change which they feel they align with, it's important to know how he's feeling about it.

I'm not as familiar with aro terminology but like with ace it's more about the drive the need the anguish. Al wouldn’t in cannon crave romantic connection.

Like with ace it's not actually cannon what type of aro he is some aro people are completely repulsed by the idea of romantic relationships or they only like it in theory (which playing around with the idea of Al liking a relationship in theory but not in practice could be a lot of fun.)

The gray romantic umbrella are aro people who can have romantic attraction to some degree. They’re still aro you can head cannon Al as it but please do a little research into which one you think your version of Al would identify with there quite a few so I'll spare the list here.

Demi romantic is when someone can develop romantic attraction for very specific people, very rarely. These people won't be on Bumble but might fall for someone after knowing them for a few years (or an indeterminate amount of time, my timeline was a year and a half I shit you not) a lot of you are looking for that.

As for kink. Lots of queer people especially are into kink because it's intimate, it's physical, it requires trust but it's not actually inherently sexual a lot of the time. And we do know that Al likes torturing and being dominant so yeah he'd be kinky that's completely canon compliant.

At the end of the day Al is ace aro in the show and that's what counts. Have fun be creative, explore the depths of your queer little minds and please be nice to each other.

(and if any of you make works related to this please please please send them to me thanks)

[tragicclownwrites]

Why the ending of "Sponge-Cano!" was great SquidBob fodder

Hello! I'm back with an analysis post as I came across something recently and wanted to share some thoughts.

I'm likely late to the game here, but I saw an old post in which the author (a fellow SquidBobber) was upset by the ending of "Sponge-Cano!" and I just have to say... huh!?

Were we watching the same episode? 🤨

Needless to say, I was thoroughly perplexed by this reaction because I personally read into it much differently. Then again, I am a clown.

Therefore - in the spirit of friendly fandom discourse - I wanted to provide another perspective on this episode. Absolutely no shade to the OP either - people are allowed to have differing opinions, after all.

If you're with me, let's clown around below the cut!

The lie that started it all

Before we dive in any further, let's take a look at the scene that started this whole conversation.

Essentially, after Squidward's heartfelt confession to SpongeBob, while he's hanging on for dear life over a boiling volcano...

Squidward: "Please SpongeBob, I didn't mean any of that! I do appreciate your friendship. I am grateful. I'm… I'm… I'm grateful for the life I'm living! Who knows how long I'll have it? I learned that from you, remember?"

He says this after being rescued by his true love SpongeBob:

Squidward: "You know SpongeBob, in light of everything that just happened... I lied to you. I am not grateful for anything! I mean look at me. I don't even have a roof to sleep under, anymore!"

Now, this is the moment that had the OP so heated about this episode. After everything he said, after SpongeBob saved his life, he just... lied?

Weeeell, not exactly.

The truth always reveals itself

Now, for my hot take... I don't think Squidward was lying at all when he said he was grateful for SpongeBob.

Before you immediately decide that I've completely out-clowned myself this time, just hear me out!

There are a few reasons Squidward may have reacted the way he did in the aftermath of the volcano debacle.

He's Squidward

Our man's just lost his whole fucking house for the billionth time

The reality of what he just said is slowly catching up with him

He's Squidward

Unlike his more chipper counterpart, the guy doesn't exactly wear his heart on his sleeve and has been shown to struggle with vulnerability and admitting failure. I mean, he can barely manage to apologize for his less savory actions without choking and sputtering like a fool!

However, when his life was on the line in this scene, he was vulnerable in more ways than one. Physically, he was quite literally dangling over an active volcano - you can't get more vulnerable than that! Emotionally, he bore his soul to SpongeBob because he thought he was going to die and wouldn't have another chance to say any of that again. Keep in mind, he truly believed he wouldn't live to see SpongeBob ever again.

I've mentioned this in my Reigisa x SquidBob masterpost, but there have been several other instances where - particularly, in a dire situation - Squidward will openly admit that he has always liked/cared for SpongeBob. And similarly, he's also tried to take it back or act like he didn't mean it when everything turns out okay or if other people aside from SpongeBob hear his confession.

So, as much as he "hates" SpongeBob and can't stand him, when it really counts, the truth always reveals itself.

Is it possible that he was just trying to play at SpongeBob's heartstrings to save his own ass? Perhaps.

But then, he accepts his fate. He loses his grip, giving everyone a tearful farewell. That is, until his little yellow angel comes to his rescue.

SpongeBob: "Squidward, I always knew you felt that way. Aw, buddy. Thanks for finally opening up to us."

⬆️Just look at the pure love in his eyes! (*Patrick voice*: LOOK AT IT!) The sappy sponge was even prepared to sacrifice himself for him. 🥺

While there was absolutely no way SpongeBob would actually let Squidward perish - promises be damned - it wasn't until Squidward poured his heart out, putting his true feelings towards SpongeBob out in the open, that he was saved from certain death.

You know how they say, "the truth will set you free"? No kidding!

As for why SpongeBob was completely fine with Squidward's lie after the fact (another point of contention for OP), well... he loves him. Period. And I think, despite his emotional constipation and frequent annoyance with the sponge in question, it's pretty clear Squidward loves him, too.

Therefore, SpongeBob wasn't upset by Squidward's outburst here because, as naïve as he may be, I don't think that fact is lost on him either.

In conclusion...

I think it's safe to say that "Sponge-Cano!" was a pretty great episode to add to the ever-growing SquidBob pile.

And if you thought the scene I talked about above was the last of it, ohohoho~ 🤭😏

You. Just. Wait.

At the very end of the episode, after Squidward loses his home and complains that he no longer has "a roof to sleep under anymore," SpongeBob does what SpongeBob does best: he offers to help him out.

Even after Squidward's selfish actions in "Can You Spare a Dime?" (which had some great fodder as well, such as *ahem* Squidward making SpongeBob wear a sexy maid outfit), SpongeBob still lets him stay at his house for an indefinite amount of time. Continuity? I don't know her.

To which, this gets even better.

Squidward doesn't refuse and find somewhere else to crash. After all, wasn't SpongeBob the reason he was miserable enough to be sacrificed in the first place? Why would he subject himself to even more SpongeBob, if that were the case?

At SpongeBob's house, he doesn't sleep on the couch or in a spare room. He doesn't even take SpongeBob's bed for himself while SpongeBob sleeps elsewhere - just like he did in "Can You Spare a Dime?"

NO.

The two of them share SpongeBob's bed. As in, they sleep in the same bed together.

Are these two fucking serious!?

They totally cuddled. Maybe even kissed.

All that to say, as much as Squidward whines and gripes about how much SpongeBob makes him miserable, it's clear to see that - even in the face of life-threatening adversity - SpongeBob's presence in his life is the key to his happiness. In this case, the key to his survival as well.

Now, if only our favorite grumpy octopus would take that spongey key, embracing him fully, to unlock that door... 🌈

[needtoloveoutloud]

let's stop using the word puritan for fandoms okay

Hi Anon :)

I'm guessing you're referring to this post I made a few days ago about the pro ship/anti ship discourse?

Why does it bother you if I use this word specifically? (I'm honestly asking, not trying to pick a fight or anything.)

According to Oxford Languages Dictionary, these are the definitions of the word:

Apart from the actual English Protestant group from a few centuries ago (which would then be capitalized if specifically referred to), it means the following:

“A person with censorious moral beliefs, especially about self-indulgence and sex.”

If there's another word for forbidding or trying to suppress or prohibit certain media content (it doesn't matter if it's books/stories, news, films, etc.) besides “censorship” feel free to use it interchangeably, but I'm not sure there is.

Possible or already existing censorship, while more important in a news-related context, is still an incredibly important topic regarding other content, such as books and stories, published online on sites like tumblr, AO3, Wattpad, FanFiction.net, etc. The sheer amount of stories on there is impossible for actual humans to filter through, which means that algorithms would need to be set up to automatically delete stories when certain criteria are met. Any form of automated algorithm can and will be faulty, however, which means that even stories that wouldn't theoretically “have to be deleted” (according to the AI-powered algorithm, at least) will slip through the cracks and get deleted without warning.

This happened before to Wattpad and FanFiction.net. There was a massive, and I mean massive purge of stories in 2002 and 2012. Only this year, it happened to Wattpad, too. A lot of authors and readers lost their stories immediately, without warning.

The US, for example, has a bill called KOSA (“Kids Online Safety Act”). It works under the disguise (I am absolutely sure that there are some 100% valid points in the bill, though, I am not from the US and have no legal background, so feel free to correct me) of child safety, but is pretty much an overreaching government censorship bill (again, I'm going off of people who know way more about the legalities of all of this). I'll quote someone from a reddit thread that addresses the consequences of the bill.

“It is technically a violation of free speech and the 1st amendment, but that's not gonna stop them. This bill would require that internet users upload their government ID to access any site, and state attorney generals could sue to remove any site that contains content deemed “harmful” to children. This would include fanfiction and fanfiction sites.”

I hope you immediately see the issue and danger of having to upload an ID to be allowed to merely access any website. Not to only view certain things (for example, I wouldn't have any issues if you have to verify your age via ID if, let's say you wanna order cigarettes or alcohol online or something) but to simply view the content and information on the page.

“I have to mention that this bill is dangerous for more reasons than just censoring fan fiction. The government will be able to censor ANYTHING - such as abortion info, LGBTQ+ resources, and any content relating to protesting or organizing. They will also be able to ID you if you search for any of these topics. And VPNs will not work.”

This. This right there is where puritan beliefs and movements get us, long-term and short-term. It has happened before, and it will happen again if we do NOT use our critical thinking and are able to differentiate between written, fictional content, and real life. The US isn't the only country that is considering implementing such laws, Canada has something similar going on with “Bill S-210”.

Internet censorship, which often starts/started with banning not only certain political content, but also under the guise of “protecting the public” is an issue in a LOT of countries and endangers the safety of various groups. China, Palestine, Indonesia, Armenia, Saudi Arabia, etc., Turkmenistan, North Korea (strongly assumed), Turkmenistan, etc. for example.

I know that you only criticized the word “puritan” and I am completely going above what you probably meant, Anon, (and I hope you don't feel attacked or think I put words in your mouth) but I hope to at least make you consider my point of the slippery slope and dangers of the gateway puritan censorship issue. It often starts with the government's reasoning of protecting their citizens or children from something, when long-term and historically speaking, that never ever leads to something good and sets society back by a mile regarding the acceptance of certain issues or free information gathering on various topics and safe exploring (of, for example, sexual topics, or learning about their own sexuality, etc.) for minors.

In my opinion and experience, it's better they figure out what they might like or not like in the safety of stories. Sure, minors are impressionable, and mature content should 100% be tagged as such, including potential trigger warnings, but if done right by the author, it can also educate. Or deliberately show unsafe behavior — which requires media literacy and critical thinking, which can ONLY be gained by consuming the media and analyzing afterwards.

That does not mean that I condone 12-year-olds reading stuff about incest, bestiality, (all in a fictional setting!), or whatever is out there. Not at all! BUT: it's the parents' responsibility to be in charge of teaching their children about internet safety, and perhaps even monitoring (to a healthy extent) what they consume and open discussions about what their children consume.

Authors are nobody's parents but their own children's (if they have any), so it is NOT their responsibility to take care of that. Tagging properly and warning the audience about the content, however, is. No discussion. But this is not just important for the protection of minors, but the mental well-being of adults, too.

I'm open to discussing this topic even more. There are a LOT more nuances and valid points and concerns from both sides, so to speak, but I'll be honest: I'm from a country where the media and government swayed the public's opinion about a certain group a LOT by censoring others in the past, and it literally lead to the death of millions. So critical thinking regarding any type of censorship (even if that scale I just referred to cannot be compared at all, I am well aware of that) and being vigilant about wanting to ban certain media or content under the guise of “protecting” others is something very, very high on my personal priority list because as soon as you learn how easily stuff like this gets out of hand, even if it starts sort of innocently, makes you kind of aware and sensitizes your for a lot of stuff.

I'm sorry if my rambling is all over the place and I hope my reply is readable — English is not my first language, so please excuse it if stuff is unclear or there are any mistakes. And I'm sorry for going completely off the rails. You maybe simply took an issue with the word “puritan” itself. If that's the case, please tell me what exactly your issue with it is, maybe we can talk specifically about this topic then, and not the whole censorship debate I started just now. Maybe we're even on the same page regarding a lot of things.

Take care. 🤍

[darkship-selfship-confessions]

I wish the proselfship community was more creative. Most of the posts I see are like "oh an anti said x thing" or just talking about incest only. Meanwhile, antis posts are a lot more cool and creative, but I can't interact with them. When I finally see a nice post in the proship tag, it's usually written "stolen from an anti", this is quite sad.

ill skip queue to talk about this, because this pisses me off. i wholeheartedly agree, by the way.

i complain about antis a lot, sure, but pretty much my entire for you tab is filled with screenshots of antis accounts, poking fun at them (even if they are in the wrong), making fun of the shit antis say, talking constantly about how much we hate antis and how they ruin fandom, and its frustrating because, if you're going to complain about that, why don't you do anything about it? its just a constant stream of "I hate antis, I hate antis, I hate antis" without contributing anything to fandom even a little bit. i have this account which I use as my contribution to the selfship community.

and with the stealing posts, sure, sometimes its nice, especially if its from an account that's pretty popular, but its so frustrating because sometimes that's not all I want to see. and there's so many people that do that.

the proship community can be worse than antis sometimes. do you know how many antis I've scrolled through the blogs off that don't say a word about proshippers? and these are the people that make creative and fun posts too. do you know how many people I have on my blocklist that are proshippers that almost all they do is post about antis? i would wager that's harassment. just because you post something with a name blacked out doesn't mean you cant find those accounts in seconds. and I have, and I've seen proshippers on their accounts posting mean and rude things.

i hate antis, let me be clear about that. but over the last three or four years, I've started to grow so resentful towards this community because its FILLED with regurgitated discorse. its all we ever talk about anymore.

and this as well, i like incest as much as a lot of proshippers do, but there's recently been this wave of ppl either A) shitting on people who like darkships or B) shitting on people who don't. this community has become so split that its overwhelming sometimes. no one has to like darkship! and its tiring having the narrative of "either you like it or you don't and one of you is in the wrong" pushed as heavy as it has been recently.

because this isnt what proship is. if we really wanna be the good community that we can be, stop filling every stereotype that antis push on to us. try to make a space that people like to be in, stop bringing discourse into everything! "but antis do that-" yes! you are no better than them. id wager you're worse.

i am a proshipper through and through, but with the rape threat I got from another proshipper literally yesterday pretending to be an anti, coupled with all of this nonsense, sometimes I think about leaving.