#hell even Denethor was kind of sympathetic at times

[tori-artemis]

OH MY GOD YESS!! They're the same!!! Except Faramir had a much more attentive, supportive older brother (I will never ever get over Boromir, never). But yes - these two are so very similar, I swear Loki could probably relate to most of the 'abused younger brothers' crowd - which includes Tyrion Lannister, Zuko, and Theon Greyjoy (who I'll also never get over tbh 😭).

And I was going to say that the only real difference between the two would be how they're both framed (with Faramir being clearly framed as more heroic) but then, that isn't entirely true. Because in The Two Towers, Faramir absolutely was not framed in a heroic or purely good light, in fact he was the antagonist. And tbf, I actually didn't fully like how he was depicted as being so cold and ruthless - particularly his scenes with Gollum. I mean, I really appreciated the complexity he was given in the films, I just would've liked to have seen more of his internal conflict, his turmoil in those scenes - his struggle between what he thinks he must do to win a hopeless, never-ending war and what he knows and feels is inexcusable (Gollum's torture). Kind of similar to how Theon was portrayed during his entire taking-over-Winterfell segment. But these are really just small character-specific nitpicks, in an otherwise absolutely fantastic trilogy. So I don't mind slightly tweaking certain details in my head-cannon, cause the overall story is brilliantly written and beautifully adapted and portrayed on screen. But I digress.

I mean, here you have these two characters who are both introduced as antagonists in a sprawling story. Both characters are seen in an intimidating, almost villainous light (Loki more so in Avengers than in Thor 2011). Yet both characters are also clearly sympathetic even as they do quite horrible acts at times - tho poor Loki's scenes were deleted, and Faramir's more humanizing scenes were strictly in the Extended Edition. And that sympathy only intensifies after they both sacrifice themselves, in more ways than one, for their respective homes and fathers. Loki basically attempts to embody Asgardian values by commiting genocide against his own race (the destruction of Jotunheim) - which he does to end the war, and keep Asgard safe, he does it for Asgard and Odin - only to attempt suicide after he fails both in that and in gaining any love or approval from Odin. Whereas Faramir goes on a literal suicide mission to reclaim Osgiliath, knowing it's impossible - but he does it anyway, all for Gondor, and for the slightest hope that he might win even the smallest bit of affection from Denethor, even if he has to die for it. You can also argue that Faramir, like Loki, sacrificed his moral integrity when he partook in torturing Gollum, and attempted to steal the Ring - which he did to protect Gondor and please his father. Faramir's devotion to Gondor and Denethor is nearly identical to Loki's devotion to Asgard and Odin. The similarities between them are many, and they both kind of start out at the same place: in the antagonist role. Yet when you look at how each story plays out, both characters are treated very differently by the writers and directors.

Faramir, I feel, was ultimately treated with far more care, consideration and respect, and aside from Peter Jackson heightening Faramir's hostility towards the hobbits and Gollum to amp up the drama, in the end, he's still shown a considerable amount of compassion by the writers, even back in TTT Extended Edition. Like in the flashback scene with him and Boromir, which shows the two brothers embrace and celebrate their victory by being in each other's company, only for Denethor to show up and disregard Faramir right on the spot, when he specifically only calls Boromir's name, only exclaims his pride in Boromir and only Boromir, and the entire mood sours into glum and bitter as a result. By the time The RotK sets in, and you finally see how Denethor treats his youngest son through Pippin's eyes... it's clearly shown to be deeply upsetting and unfair, and just... unquestionably wrong. The music in that scene alone shows just how awful Denethor's treatment of Faramir is, from the ominous tones to the mournful pan flute.

I don't know how else to explain it, except...the horrible things that happen to Faramir, despite him being a far more grayer character in the films, is shown to be absolutely horrible. There's no..."well he did bad things so he deserves it," there's no "but he was mean so who cares!" (And I just have to add, that this is absolutely true for Gollum too - like I don't think any scene where he's being beaten, humiliated, and spoken down to - yes even when it's inflicted by a genuinely heroic character like Sam - is meant to be viewed in any positive way at all - quite the opposite in fact, cause the films never shy away from showing just how deeply tragic Gollum truly is.) None of the writers, nor the director, nor the composer say anything like that at all, and it shows, cause the films show just how awful it is.

Like compare that with Loki getting tortured by Thor (god I hate that fucking scene) in Ragnarok, or any scene in the Loki series (cause there are numerous ones to choose from). Those scenes are played as jokes. Or how about the scenes in the first Thor, and The Dark World, the ones between Loki and Frigga, or Loki and Odin - and I guess this is why I can't actually love those films even when they have the best depictions of Loki in the MCU. Because despite the terrific acting (mostly from Tom Hiddleston) they just feel too neutral. Indifferent almost. With the exception of the vault scene, they feel... I don't know, too understated in a way. Like the abuse is somehow being downplayed, and brushed over - even when it's not being outright excused the way it is in later installments. Like the writers are too afraid to commit to portraying Odin as an abuser somehow. The writers definitely didn't intend to show Frigga in that light, that's for sure. Even in the earlier films, the filmmakers wanted Loki to be sympathetic (but not too sympathetic), and they wanted Odin to be shown as distant and hypocritical (but not too much), and as for Frigga, well she's just supposed to be wonderful! And that's kind of why I think there's all these weird takes from fans (aside from having different writers and the numerous inconsistencies). Like Frigga being the best mom, Odin being "bad at communication" who "did his best to be a good father" (ugh!), etc. Not even sure what I'm trying to say here, just - I don't think these characters were ever allowed to be shown in that light, they were never meant to be seen as these abusers who inflicted so much irreparable harm to Loki - even when that's exactly what the films unintentionally have shown. Like - the writers and directors constantly come up with these excuses, even in the earlier films Loki's sympathetic scenes end up getting deleted because in the end, they don't really want us to feel too much compassion for him, despite all he's been through - cause he's The Villain. He isn't supposed to be too sympathetic.

And I never see this with Faramir, I never see the writers defending or condoning Denethor's downright terrible parenting at all. And honestly, I don't think it was just the framing... cause he was definitely an antagonist. At least, in the second film. He isn't degraded by any of the writers, he isn't turned into a scapegoat, or a punching bag (and neither is Gollum for that matter). His abuse isn't applauded or praised at all, or laughed at, or rationalized. And it's never shrugged off, or downplayed.

It's just shown, the way abuse is supposed to be shown. It's tragic. It's upsetting, and the films make sure to show you just how upsetting it is. And most of all, the harm that's inflicted by Denethor, the harm he inflicts on his youngest son - it's shown intentionally, not by accident, not half-heartedly. It's all purposefully depicted, and I think the story is made far more richer because of that.

I just realized these 2 princes have so much incommon...