#he may not have all of the information that characters like wwx and lwj and lxc have | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

mdzs-owns-my-ass-i-guess · 2 years ago

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I posted 6,222 times in 2022

That's 276 more posts than 2021!

570 posts created (9%)

5,652 posts reblogged (91%)

Blogs I reblogged the most:

chemical-abscess

mdzsquoteoftheday

wangxian-on-repeat

jiaoji

twenty-orange-balloons

I tagged 1,184 of my posts in 2022

#mdzs - 562 posts

#mo dao zu shi - 532 posts

#original thots - 412 posts

#wangxian - 201 posts

#writing attempts - 106 posts

#wwx - 63 posts

#incorrect mdzs quotes - 36 posts

#mdzs incorrect quotes - 36 posts

#lwj - 14 posts

#same - 13 posts

Longest Tag: 139 characters

#i honestly see lxc as an example of how lack of information/lack of depth of information and excessive trustworthiness can misguide someone

My Top Posts in 2022:

Wei Ying has his fear of dogs, Lan Zhan deals with it the best he can by shooing the dogs away and he gets kisses in return plenty

But my personal headcanon is that both the fearsome Yiling Patriarch and his illustrous Hanguang-Jun have a shared fear/disgust of spiders

Fierce corpses, ghosts, ancient beasts? Fair game.

Spiders?

Nah, they don't fuck with that.

"Lan Zhan, you saw it first, you deal with it."

"No."

"What do you mean no?! Aren't you my husband? You're supposed to protect me!"

"Mn. But you are also my husband, so, likewise."

"This is ridiculous. You're Hanguang-Jun, the Second Jade of Lan. That's just a stupid spider!"

"You are also the Yiling Patriarch, the grandmaster of demonic cultivation."

"Lan Zhan, come on, we can't stay up on this table forever. Just kill it!"

"Killing is forbidden in the Cloud Recesses."

"A whole lot of things we do are forbidden in the Cloud Recesses but that never stopped you before!"

"Mn."

"No 'mn'!! You have to do something about it and quickly, unless it..."

"Wei Ying?"

"The...the spider...I don't know where it is, it's gone!!"

"Gone?!"

(Sizhui comes to visit and finds his two most respected parental figures in battle stances, Chenqing is out, talismans float about and the two very graciously stand on their spiritual swords safely away from the floor.

Sizhui kills the spider.)

985 notes - Posted May 20, 2022

"Ask me now, see if I would deny you anything." is the most romantic, erotic, emotional, heart-wrenching, devotion-filled, loving sentence I have ever read and I will never recover from it

1,030 notes - Posted March 11, 2022

AITA for getting punched in the face?

So I (16, M) am betrothed to a girl (16, F) I don't really like but my mom and her mom made the arrangement before we were born and neither of our dads (or us) get much say in this because our moms are scary.

Anyway, I really don't like this girl. She's just average and the only reason we're supposed to marry is because our moms are sworn sisters and we're from powerful, noble families. Not to brag, but I'm exceptionally good-looking and highly skilled, and I don't think a girl so meek and ordinary would be fit for me at all.

I don't see the point of hiding my disdain for her. Anyone with a good pair of eyes can see how different I am from her and there is no point in me pretending I feel any different about her.

To preface, I don't think I'm the asshole and I want to prove I'm not the only one who thinks that.

Onto the story:

Some friends were talking about pretty girls and such, and since I don't necessarily care for those discussions, I kept silent. One of them then mentioned I am not saying anything because I am already in love with my forced fiancee and see no other girls as interesting.

I simply responded like I did above: that I find her unappealing and she's not at all my type. Which prompted her almost-brother (long story, but the guy isn't even adopted in the family, just hangs out around them and somehow ended up as head disciple) to punch me in the face. Hard.

I am not weak at all but the hit took me by surprise and led to me walking around with a swollen face for several days. The guy got punished but not without him and my fiancee's actual brother both calling me an asshole.

Could you all convince them I am NTA once and for all?

Edit 1: To update you all, I actually did marry my fiancee (not resulting from the arranged marriage, it was annuled and then we ended up falling in love on our own) and she's an amazing, kind and beautiful person with whom I am going to have a son in a few months.

I was an arrogant, annoying, entitled, incel-esque piece of shit two years ago but thankfully, I got better and am on the way of becoming a decent person and hopefully a good father!!

I love my wife very much and I regret I didn't treat her right from the start, but I now have the rest of my life to make it up to her although I know she has already forgiven me anyway.

Growth is a wonderful thing and I think everyone should embrace it. I used to really hate my life and resent my parents for the environment they have raised me in as an arranged marriage couple that was never really happy. I thought the same would happen to me and I projected all of that onto my wife for no reason - but now I am happily married and feel so loved and appreciated that I can't help but model after my wife's kindness and good character.

Edit 2: My son just came into the world a few days ago. He is happy and healthy and I am fighting with my wife about who gets to hold him more!! I can't wait for his one month celebration, I'll try to make up with my wife's brothers and make sure my son has all his uncles in his life! I'll update you all with pictures after the event!

Last updated: 15 years ago

1,304 notes - Posted July 31, 2022

Wangxian is like

WWX, perfectly capable of defending himself: Lan Zhaaan save me!!

LWJ, perfectly aware that WWX can defend himself: *saves him with no hesitation*

And then they kiss

1,652 notes - Posted September 3, 2022

My #1 post of 2022

Wei Ying is a trophy wife icon

Does not have a job

Husband pays for everything

Spends time with the kids all day

Gets dicked down silly every day

Can focus on his hobbies and interests without needing to work

Is insanely pretty

1,914 notes - Posted July 28, 2022

Get your Tumblr 2022 Year in Review →

#tumblr2022 #year in review #my 2022 tumblr year in review #your tumblr year in review #thank you everyone for the likes and reblogs #and for sticking around!!

5 notes · View notes

pumpkinpaix · 4 years ago

Note

Pleeeeeeease get into the class one at some point because I very much want to understand the class dynamics happening in the story but I have yet to find a meta that dives into it

god anon you want me dead don’t you alsjdfljks

referring to this post

okay, so -- my specific salt about class interpretations in mdzs are very targeted. I can’t pretend to have a deep understanding of how class works in mdzs generally because uhhhhh yeah i don’t think i have that. i’m just not familiar enough with the genre and/or the particulars of chinese class systems. but! i can talk in general terms as to why I feel a certain way about the class dynamics that I do think I understand and how I think they relate to the themes of the novel! i’m gonna talk about wei wuxian, the daozhangs, xue yang, and 3zun with, I’m sure, a bunch of digressions along the way.

the usual disclaimers: i do not think you are a bad person if you hold opinions contrary to my own. i may disagree with you very strongly, but like. this isn’t a moral judgment, fandom is transformative and interpretive etc. etc. and i may change my mind. who knows what the future will bring!

OKAY so let’s begin!

here’s the thing about wei wuxian: he’s not poor. I think because characters use “son of a servant” kind of often when they’re trying to insult him, a lot of people latch onto that and think that it’s a much stronger indication of his societal status than it actually is. iirc, most of the insults that fall along the “son of a servant” line come after wei wuxian starts breaking severely from tradition. it’s a convenient thing to attack him for, but doesn’t actually indicate anything about his wealth. (exception: yu ziyuan, but that’s a personal familial issue) this is in direct contrast to jin guangyao who is constantly mocked for his family line, publicly and privately, no matter what he does.

so this, coupled with all the jokes about wwx never having any money (wei wuqian, sizhui’s “i’ve long since known you had no money” etc.), plus his like, rough years on the street as a child ends up producing this interpretation of wei wuxian, especially in modern aus, as someone who is very class conscious and “eat the rich”. but the fact of the matter is, wei wuxian IS rich. aside from the years in his childhood and the last two years of his life in yiling, like -- wei wuxian had money and status. he is gentry. he is respected as gentry. he is treated as a son by the sect leader of yunmeng jiang -- he does not have the jiang name, but it is so very clear that jiang fengmian favors him. wei wuxian is ranked fourth of all the eligible young masters in the cultivation world -- that is not a ranking he could have attained without being accepted into the upper class.

wei wuxian’s poverty does not affect him in the way that it affects jin guangyao or xue yang. he is of low-ish birth (still the son of jiang fengmian’s right hand man though! ok sure, “son of a servant” but like. >_> whatever anyways), but for most of his life he had money. he, jiang cheng, and their sect brothers go into town and steal lotus pods with the understanding that “jiang-shushu will pay for it”. this is a regular thing! that’s fucking rich kid behavior!!! wei wuxian is careless with money because he doesn’t have to worry about it. he still has almost all the benefits of being upper class: education, food security, respect, recognition etc. I think there may also be a misconception that wei wuxian was always on the verge of being kicked out by yu ziyuan, or that he was constantly walking on eggshells around her for fear of being disowned, but that is just textually untrue. i could provide receipts, but I admittedly don’t really feel like digging them up just now ;;

even in his last years in yiling, he was not the one who was dealing with the acute knowledge of poverty: wen qing is the one managing the money, and as far as we know, wei wuxian did little to no management of daily life during the burial mounds days -- mostly, he’s described as hiding in his cave for days on end, working on his inventions, running around like a force of chaos, frivolously making a mess of things -- it’s very very cute that he buries a’yuan in the dirt, but in classic wei wuxian fashion, he did Not think about the practical consequences of it -- that A’Yuan has no other clean clothes, and now he’s gotten this set dirty and has no intention of washing them. is this a personality thing? yeah, but I think it’s also indicative of his lack of concern over the logistics of everyday survival, re: wealth.

furthermore, i think it is important to remember that wei wuxian, when he is protecting the wen remnants, is not protecting common folk: he is still protecting gentry. fallen gentry, yes! but gentry nonetheless. wen qing was favored by wen ruohan, and wen ning himself says that he has a retinue of people under his command (the remnants, essentially). their branch of the family do not have the experience of living and growing in poverty -- they are impoverished and persecuted in their last years, but that’s a very different thing from being impoverished your whole life. (sidenote: I do not believe wei wuxian’s primary motivation for defending the wen remnants was justice -- i believe he did it because he felt he owed wen ning and wen qing a life debt, and once he was there, he wasn’t going to stand around and let the work camps go on. yes, he is concerned about justice and doing the right thing, but that’s not why he went in the first place. anyways, that’s another meta)

after wei wuxian returns, he then marries back into gentry, and very wealthy gentry at that. lwj provides him all the money he could ever want, he is never worried about going homeless, starving, being denied opportunities based on his class and accompanying disadvantages. who would dare? and neither wei wuxian nor lan wangji seem to have much interest in shaking up the order of things, except in little things like the way they teach the juniors. they live in gusu, under the auspices of the lan, and they live a happy, domestic life.

were his years on the street traumatizing? yes, of course they were, there’s so much delicious character exploration to be done re: wei wuxian’s relationship to food, his relationship to his own needs, and his relationship to the people he loves. it’s all important and good! but I feel very strongly that that experience, while it was formative for him, did not impart any true understanding of poverty and the common person’s everyday struggles, nor do I think he ever really gains that understanding. he is observant and canny and aware of class and blood, certainly, but not in a way that makes it his primary hill to die on (badum-tss).

this is in very stark contrast to characters like jin guangyao and xue yang, and to some extent, xiao xingchen and song lan. I’ll start with the daozhangs, because I think they’re the simplest (??).

I think both xiao xingchen and song lan have class consciousness, but in a very simplified, broad-strokes kind of way (at least, given the information we know about them). we know that the two of them share similar values and want to one day form their own sect that gives no weight to the nobility of your lineage and has no concern with your wealth. we also know that they both disdain intersect politics and are more concerned with ideals and principles rather than status. but, I think because of that, this actually somewhat limits their perception and understanding of how status is used to oppress. as far as we know, neither of them participated on any side in sunshot and they demonstrate much more interest in relating to the commoners. honestly, i hc that they were flitting around trying to help decimated towns, protecting defenseless villages etc. I ALSO think this has a lot of interesting potential in terms of xiao xingchen and wei wuxian’s relationship, if xiao xingchen is ever revived. regardless of whether you’re in CQL or novel verse, xiao xingchen really doesn’t know wei wuxian at all, other than knowing that he’s his shijie’s son. he knows that cangse-sanren met with a tragic end, like yanling-daoren before her, and that he wants to be different. but here is cangse-sanren’s son, laying waste to entire cities, desecrating the dead. I would very much like to get into xiao xingchen’s head during that period of time (and i think, if i do it right, i can write some of it into the songxiao fixit), but that’s neither here nor there, because i’ve wandered off from my point again.

i would posit that song lan is used to an ascetic lifestyle, and xiao xingchen probably is too -- but that’s different from poverty because there’s an element of choice to it. I also think that neither of them is particularly worldly, xiao xingchen especially. he lived on an isolated mountain until he was like, seventeen, and he came down full of ideals and naivete about how the world worked. I think that both of them see inequality, that they are angered by it, and that they want to do something about it -- but their solution is neither to topple the sects, nor is it to reform the system. rather, it seems to be more about withdrawing and creating their own removed world. I think that the daozhangs embody a kind of utopianism that isn’t present in the minds of any of the other characters, not even wangxian. honestly, baoshan-sanren’s mountain is a utopian ideal, but one that is not described. it exists outside of and beyond the world. i have a lot of jumbled, vague thoughts about utopianism generally, mostly informed by china miéville and ursula k. le guin, and I don’t think i have the ability to articulate them here, but i wanted to. hm. say something? there is something about the inherent dystopianism contained within every utopia, that utopias are necessary, but also reflections of the existence of terrible things in their conception. idk. there’s something in there, I know it!! but i suppose what I want to say is -- i do not think the daozhangs understand class and social hierarchy very deeply because they don’t see a need to examine it deeply. for their goals, the details aren’t the point. they’re not looking to reform within the system, they’re looking to build something outside of it. I think they spend a lot of time concerned with alleviating the symptoms of social oppression, and their values reflect the injustices they witness there.

regardless, even if their story ends in tragedy and there is a certain amount of critique re: the utopian approach, i think the text still emphasizes that xiao xingchen left a utopia and that he thought that people mattered enough for him to try, and that was an incredibly honorable, kind, and human thing to do.

YEAH SURE THE DAOZHANGS ARE THE SIMPLEST ok ok RETURNING to class and moving forward: xue yang.

i also don’t think xue yang has class consciousness lol, or not in any way that really matters, but I do think poverty impacted him in a much stronger way than it impacted wei wuxian. wei wuxian spent some years on the street as a child. xue yang grew up on the streets. chang ci’an’s horrific treatment of him was directly due to his class and social standing: chang ci’an is a nobleman and xue yang is not even worth the dirt beneath the wheels of his cart. what I think is the seminal point though, is that this does not make xue yang think particularly deeply about systemic injustice, because xue yang is so self-centered, self-driven, and individualistic. he is not even slightly concerned about how poverty and class might affect other people -- they’re other people. what he takes away from his experience is not an anger at being wrongfully cheated by a system, but an anger at being wrongfully cheated by a specific man.

xue yang is not particularly concerned with the politics of the aristocracy -- he has no obvious ambitions other than, “i want to eat sweets whenever i please”, “i want to hurt anyone who wrongs me”, and “i want to be so strong that no one can hurt me”. like, he just doesn’t care -- it’s not the kind of power he wants. he sneers at people for like, personal reasons, not class reasons -- “you think you’re better than me” re: xiao xingchen and song lan. to him, all people -- poor, wealthy, noble, common -- are essentially equal, and they are all beneath him. after all, what does he care what family someone comes from, how much money they have? everyone bleeds when you cut them. some of them might be harder to get to than others, but xue yang does not fear that sort of thing. it’s just another obstacle he needs to vault on his way to getting revenge and/or a pastry.

ANYWAYS onto jin guangyao (wow this is hm. getting rather long ahaha oh dear): I would argue that the two characters with the most acute understanding of class/societal politics and the injustice of them are jin guangyao and lan xichen. i’ll start with jin guangyao for obvious reasons.

where xue yang took the damaging effects of poverty as personal slights, I think jin guangyao is painfully aware that there is nothing personal about them, which is, in some ways, much worse. why are two sons, born on the same day to the same father, treated so differently? just because.

he watched his mother struggle and starve and work herself to the bone in a profession where she was constantly disrespected and abused for almost nothing in return, while his father could have lifted her out of poverty with the wave of a finger. why didn’t he? because he didn’t like her? no -- because he didn’t care, and the structures of the society they live in protect that kind of blase treatment of the lower class.

“so my mother couldn’t choose her own fate, is that her fault?” jin guangyao demands. he knows that he is unbelievably talented, that he has ambition, that he has potential, and that all of it is beyond his grasp just because his father didn’t want to bother with it. his mother’s life was destroyed, and his own opportunities were crippled with that negligence. it isn’t personal. that’s just the way things are. your individual identity is meaningless, your humanity does not exist. when he’s kicked down the steps of jinlin tai, it’s just more confirmation that no matter how talented or hardworking he is, no one will give him the time of day unless he finds a way to take it himself and become someone who “matters”.

jin guangyao’s cultivation is weak because he had a poor foundation, and he had a poor foundation because he was denied access to a good one. he copies others because that’s all he can do at this point, and he copies so well that he can hold his own against some of the strongest cultivators of his generation. he’s disparaged for copying and “stealing” techniques, but -- he never would have had to if only he had been born/accepted into the upper class. the fact is that i really do think jin guangyao was the most promising cultivator of his generation that we meet, including the twin jades and wei wuxian: he had natural talent, ambition, creativity, determination and cunning in spades. in some ways, I think that’s one of the overlooked tragedies of jin guangyao: the loss of not just the good man he could have been, but the powerful one too. imagine what he could have done.

jin guangyao spends his entire time in the world of the aristocracy feeling unsteady and terrified because he knows exactly how precarious his position is. he knows how easy it is to lose power, especially for someone like him. he’s working against so many disadvantages, and every scrap of honor he gets is a vicious battle. jin guangyao fears, and I think that’s something that’s lacking in xue yang, wei wuxian and the daozhangs’ experiences/understandings of poverty. i think it’s precisely that fear that emphasizes jin guangyao’s understanding of class and blood. jin guangyao exhibits an anxiety that neither wei wuxian nor xue yang do, and it’s because he truly knows how little he is worth in the eyes of society and how little there is he can do to change that. to me, it very much feels related to the anxiety of not knowing if tomorrow you’ll have something to eat, if tomorrow you’ll still have a home, if tomorrow someone will destroy you and never have to answer for it. it’s the anxiety of knowing helplessness intimately.

moreover, jin guangyao is the only person shown to use the wealth and power at his disposal to take concrete steps to actually help the common people typically ignored by the powerful -- the watchtowers. they’re described in chapter 42. it’s a system that is designed to cover remote areas that most cultivators are reluctant to go due to their inconvenience and the lack of means of the people who live there. the watchtowers assign cultivators to different posts, give aid to those previously forgotten, and if the people are too poor to pay what the cultivators demand, the lanling jin sect pays for it. jin guangyao worked on this for five years and burned a lot of bridges over it. people were strongly opposed to it, thinking that it was some kind of ploy for lanling jin’s personal benefit. but the thing is -- it worked. they were effective. people were helped.

i believe CQL frames the watchtowers as an allegory for a surveillance state/centralized control (i think?? it’s been a minute -- that’s the hazy impression i remember, something like a parallel to the wen supervisory offices?), but I personally don’t think that was the intent in the novel. the watchtowers are a public good. lanling jin doesn’t staff them with their own sect members -- they get nearby sects to staff them. it’s a warning network that they fund that’s supposed to benefit everyone, even those that everyone had considered expendable.

(did jin guangyao do terrible things to achieve this goal? yeah lol. it’s not confirmed, but his son sure did die... suspiciously...... at the hands of an outspoken critic of the watchtowers........ whom he then executed....... so like, maybe just a convenient coincidence for jin guangyao, two birds one stone, but. it seems. Unlikely.)

lan xichen is the only member of the gentry that ever shows serious compassion for and nuanced understanding of jin guangyao’s circumstances. lan xichen treats him as his equal regardless of jin guangyao’s current status -- even when he was meng yao, lan xichen treated him as a human being worthy of respect, as someone with great merits, as someone he would choose as a friend, but he did so knowing full well the delicate position meng yao occupied. this is in direct contrast to nie mingjue, who also believed that meng yao was worthy of respect as a human being, but was completely unable to comprehend the complexities of his circumstances and unwilling to grant him any grace. you know, the difference between “i acknowledge that your birth and status have had effects upon you, but I don’t think less of you for it” and “i don’t consider your birth and status at all when i interact with you because i think it is irrelevant” (“i don’t see color” anyone?)

to illustrate, from chapter 48:

大抵是觉得娼妓之子身上说不定也带着什么不干净的东西，这几名修士接过他双手奉上来的茶盏后，并不饮下，而是放到一边，还取出雪白的手巾，很难受似的，有意无意反复擦拭刚才碰过茶盏的手指。聂明玦并非细致之人，未曾注意到这种细节，魏无羡却用眼角余光扫到了这些。孟瑶视若未见，笑容不坠半分，继续奉茶。蓝曦臣接过茶盏之时，抬眸看他一眼，微笑道：“多谢。”

旋即低头饮了一口，这才继续与聂明玦交谈。旁的修士见了，有些不自在起来。

rough tl:

Probably because they believed that the son of a prostitute might also carry some unclean things upon his person, after these few cultivators took the teacups offered from [Meng Yao’s] two hands, they did not drink, but instead put them to one side, and furthermore brought out snow white handkerchiefs. Quite uncomfortably, and whether they were aware of it or not, they repeatedly wiped the fingers they had just used to touch the teacups. Nie Mingjue was not a detail-oriented person and never took note of such particulars, but Wei Wuxian caught these in the corner of his eye. Meng Yao appeared as if he had not seen, his smile unwavering in the slightest, and continued to serve tea. When Lan Xichen took the teacup, he glanced up at him and, smiling, said, “Thank you.”

He immediately dipped his head to take a sip, and only then continued to converse with Nie Mingjue. Seeing this, the nearby cultivators began to feel somewhat uneasy.

all right, since we’re in full cyan-rampaging-through-the-weeds mode at this point, i’m going to talk about how this is one of my favorite 3zun moments in the entire novel for characterization purposes because it really highlights how they all relate to one another, and to what degree each of them is aware of their own position in relation to the others and society as a whole.

1. nie mingjue, who is a forthright and blunt person, sets meng yao to serving tea and is done with it. he notices nothing wrong or inappropriate about the reactions of the people in the room because it’s not the sort of thing he considers important.

2. meng yao, knowing that his only avenue is to take it lying down with a smile, masks perfectly.

3. lan xichen, noticing all this, uses his own reputation to achieve two things at once: pointedly shame the other cultivators in attendance, and show meng yao that regardless of others’ opinions, he considers him an equal and does not endorse such behavior--and he does it while taking care that no fallout will come down on meng yao’s head.

is this yet another installment of cyan’s endless lxc defense thesis? why yes it is! no one is surprised! but this is my whole point: both meng yao and lan xichen understand the respective hierarchy and power dynamics within the room, while nie mingjue very much does not. this is not because nie mingjue is a bad person or because nie mingjue is stupid--it’s a combination of personality and upbringing. nie mingjue is straightforward and has no patience for such games. but then again, he can afford not to play because he was born into such a high position: that’s a privilege.

to break it down: meng yao knows that he is the lowest-ranked person in the room, sees the way people are subtly disrespecting him in full view of his general who is doing nothing about it. in some ways, this is good -- nie mingjue’s style of dealing with conflict is very direct and not at all suited to delicate political maneuvering. after all, the way he promoted meng yao was actually quite dangerous to meng yao: he essentially guaranteed that his men would bear meng yao a grudge and that their disrespect for him would only be compounded by their bitterness at being punished on his behalf. (it’s like, why often getting parents or teachers to intervene ineffectively in bullying can just be an incitement to more bullying -- same concept) meng yao’s reaction during that scene shows that he’s pretty painfully aware of this and is trying to defuse the situation to no avail. nie mingjue gives him a bootstrap speech (rip nie mingjue i love u so much but. sir) and then promotes him, which is pretty much the only saving grace of that entire exchange, for meng yao at least.

lan xichen, on the other hand, understands both that meng yao is the lowest-ranked person in the room and that any direct attempt to chastise the other cultivators in the room will only serve to hurt meng yao in the long run. he knows that if this were brought to nie mingjue’s attention, he would be outraged and not shy about it -- also bad for meng yao. so he uses what he has: his immaculate reputation. by acting contrary to the other cultivators’ behavior, he demonstrates that he finds their actions unacceptable but with the plausible deniability that it wasn’t directed at them, that this is just zewu-jun being his usual generous self. this means that the other cultivators have no one to blame but themselves, nothing to do but question their own actions. there is nowhere to cast off their discomfort. meng yao didn’t do anything. lan xichen didn’t do anything -- he just thanked meng yao and drank his tea, isn’t that what it’s there for? he doesn’t disrupt the peace, he doesn’t attack anyone and put them on the defensive, but he does make his position very clear.

i know this is a really small thing and i’m probably beating it to death, but I really think this shows just how cognizant lan xichen is of politics and emotional cause and effect in such situations. certainly, out of context I think the scene reads kind of cliche, but within the greater narrative of the story and within the arc of these characters specifically, I think it was a really smart scene to include. it also showcases lan xichen’s style of action: that he moves around and with a problematic situation as opposed to moving straight through.

not to be salty on main again, but this is why it’s very frustrating to me when I see people call lan xichen passive when he is anything but. his actions just don’t look like traditional “actions”, especially to an american audience. it’s easy to understand lan wangji and wei wuxian’s style of problem-solving: taking a stand, moving through, staying strong. lan xichen is juggling an inconceivable number of factors in any given situation, weighing his responsibilities in one role against those in another, and then trying to find the path through the thicket that will cause the least harm, both to himself and the thicket. lan wangji and wei wuxian are not particularly good at considering the far-reaching consequences of their actions -- again, not because they are bad people, but because of a combination of personality and upbringing. they’d just hack through the thicket, not thinking about the creatures that live in it. that is not a terrible thing! it isn’t. it’s a different way of approaching a problem, and it has different priorities. that’s okay. there are advantages and disadvantages on both sides, and where you come down is going to depend on your personal values.

okay we’ve spiraled far and away from my original point, but let’s circle back: i was talking about class.

I think it’s undeniable that class, birthright, fate etc. are some of the driving forces of thematic conflict in mdzs, and the way each character interacts with those forces reveals a lot about themselves and also about the larger themes of fate, chance, and what it means to be righteous and good and how that is and isn’t rewarded. a lot of the tragedy of mdzs (the tragedy that isn’t caused by direct aggression on the part of one group or another) stems from the injustices and slights that people suffered due to their lot in life. it isn’t fair. none of it is fair! we sympathize with jin guangyao because we recognize that what he suffered was unconscionable, even if we don’t excuse him. i sympathize A Lot with xue yang as well for similar reasons, though I understand that’s a harder sell. this is a story focused on the mistakes of an entrenched, aging gentry and the effects that those mistakes had on their children, and a lot of it has to do with prejudice based in class and birth status. whether the prejudice was the true reason or whether it was just a convenient excuse, the fact remains that the systems in place rewarded and protected the people in power who used it to cling to that power. mdzs is also a story of how the circumstances of one’s life can offer you impossible choices that you cannot abstain from, and it asks us to be compassionate to the people who made terrible choices in terrible times. it’s about the inherent complexity in all things! that sometimes, there are no good choices, and i don’t know, i’d like to think that people would show me compassion if I had to make the choices some of these characters did. not just wei wuxian, mind you, every single one of them. except jin guangshan because I Do Hate Him sorry. and i guess wen ruohan. i think that’s it.

good. GOD this is clocking in at //checks notes -- just over 5k. 8′D *stuffs some weeds into my mouth like the clown i am*

(ko-fi? :’D *lies down*)

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grewlikefancyflowers · 3 years ago

Text

The role of homophobia in MDZS

Horribly long post under the cut.

First let’s talk about MXY - this is the first thing we are told regarding his sexuality - ‘Mo XuanYu was homosexual, and had enough nerve to harass the other disciples. The scandal was revealed to the public and, as he had few achievements in terms of cultivation, there were no reasons for him to stay in the clan.’ (Ch.2)

This all seems to suggest that MXY’s sexuality alone was not enough to expel him from the clan - it was that he made advances towards others, and that this information was made public. It is heavily suggested that if MXY had been talented or otherwise favoured, he may have been allowed to stay. In summary, aside from him being gay, there were at least three other factors against him for it to be enough to warrant his expulsion from the Jin Sect, and most relevantly, there were conditions under which he would have ‘gotten away’ with it.

WWX also says to LWJ in Chapter 47, ‘If it was as simple as harassing someone from the same sect, he [MXY] would’ve gotten away with a few scoldings. It wouldn’t have been enough for him to be kicked out.’

And again we see on Dafan Mountain - ‘Mo XuanYu was the LanlingJin Sect’s… Ahem, he used to be a foreign disciple of the Jin Sect. But, because his spiritual powers were low and he didn’t work hard in his studies, and also had that… He harassed a peer and was thrown out of the LanlingJin Sect’ (Ch.10)

His low cultivation skills are brought up first as the reasoning for his expulsion, and it is not said that he was kicked out solely for being gay, but rather that he harassed other disciples. The unnamed person who is speaking here does seem to be uncomfortable directly talking about MXY’s sexuality. But overall, that (and everything else about MXY) is treated as interesting gossip, rather than anything worthy of true condemnation. Compare it to how they reacted to the appearance of WN, who they were ready to kill, and then turned their attention to WWX for summoning him. Being a demonic cultivator is a worse crime than being gay in MDZS, confirmed. Actually, aside from that one guy above, no one has anything to say about MXY’s sexuality at all - they’re more interested in criticising his flute skills, and they have far more of a reaction to LWJ and JC’s dual than the mention of MXY being a cut-sleeve. Overall here, while MXY’s sexuality is regarded as somewhat scandalous, people seem to find it the least interesting thing to happen on that mountain that night, and the only person we see having any particularly negative reaction is JC.

JC is a character we know to be homophobic, expressing this repeatedly throughout the novel - his immediate reaction to hearing about MXY is - ‘Jiang Cheng’s eyebrows twitched. His eyes which stared at Wei WuXian seemed more disgusted than before.’ (Ch.10) We also see him being homophobic about LWJ specifically in chapter 24 - ‘Jiang Cheng smiled menacingly, “It really is quite curious how far he went to protect you, back on Dafan Mountain.” A moment later, he corrected himself, “No. You weren’t necessarily the one whom Lan WangJi was protecting. [...] Maybe he’s familiar with this body that you stole instead.” His words were cruel and sinister. Every sentence seemed well-meaning on the surface, but was actually derogatory.’

We also know that JC during that confrontation on Dafan Mountain was not willing to let ‘MXY’ go - he was already past the point of holding back due to social decorum (having already fought LWJ), there is little he wouldn’t do to to get his hands on WWX - If MDZS society was that homophobic, then JC could easily use that against LWJ in that moment by publicly questioning why he is going so far to defend an openly gay man who has just declared his attraction to him, even going as far as to take him home. JC doesn’t do this, though he has no problem expressing that exact sentiment in private. Clearly, sexuality is not something that can be effectively weaponised like that.

Similarly, at the discussion conference WX attend, JC makes a few underhanded remarks about LWJ and WWX - ‘After a few words of small talk, Jiang Cheng asked, “HanGuang-Jun, I’ve never seen you at Carp Tower’s Discussion Conferences before. Why have you gained the sudden interest?” Neither Lan XiChen nor Lan WangJi replied. Luckily, Jiang Cheng didn’t intend for this to be a serious question in the first place. He had already turned to Wei WuXian, speaking as though he’d spit out a sword and impale the latter anytime he wished to, “If I remember correctly, wasn’t it that you two never took needless personnel with you when travelling out? What’s the situation this time? Once in a blue moon? Now who is this renowned cultivator? Could someone please introduce him to me?” (Ch.47). We can clearly see that he is trying to provoke a reaction from them, with the implicit threat that he knows WWX's real identity. Once again, if JC thought he could use any implication about LWJ’s sexuality or his relationship to ‘MXY’ against them here, he would, he does so later in the ancestral hall, in private.

Additionally, JC's unwillingness to say such things publicly, that he does not hesitate to say in private, seems to indicate that doing so would not actually be that well received.

Another point on Koi Tower, both LWJ and WWX know of MXY’s reputation, and the assumptions people might conclude about LWJ attending with a known gay man, neither of them at any point express any concern over how that would come across. WX are also given one room with one bed to stay in (as described in Ch.47), neither of them express any concern that it seems to have been assumed they are a couple, they not concerned over any backlash from this, nor do they receive any.

Also in chapter 47, Wei Wuxian does have this to say about how he might be perceived at Koi Tower - ‘More than half of the Lanlingjin Sect’s disciples had strange expressions on their faces when they looked at him. He had temporarily forgotten that this was Carp Tower, where Mo XuanYu harassed somebody from his own sect and was kicked out. Who would’ve expected that he’d return with such conspicuity, as if he knew no shame. He even slipped into a highranked seat along with the Two Jades of Lan…’ [...] “Wei WuXian, “Please don’t leave me. There’s probably a lot of people here who know about Mo XuanYu. If somebody decides that they want to talk about the good ol’ days with me, I’ll have to keep on playing the fool and spouting nonsense. Please don’t mind if I end up losing your face.”’

While WWX does express concern specifically over the fact that MXY had harassed someone, rather than just that he was a cut-sleeve, it is sort of hard to separate the two in this instance. However, WWX does say he’d have to ‘play the fool and spout nonsense’ - seeming to indicate that this is more about MXY’s general behaviour, rather than his sexuality specifically. Regardless, the most important point here is that WWX says to LWJ ‘please don’t leave me’ - suggesting that, while in the presence of Hanguang Jun, WWX would be safe from any backlash resulting from MXY’s reputation.

Shortly after, WWX says this ‘“The way that everyone at Carp Tower looks at me is so strange. Just what did Mo XuanYu do?”’ WWX clearly thinks that the reaction to MXY here is far greater than what he did should provoke. This once again suggests that queerness isn’t really regarded as that offensive within MDZS. WWX is actually so curious about what MXY could have done, that he leaves LWJ with the excuse of going to find out, seeking out JL.

Then we have this interaction with JL’s bullies -

‘‘Jin Chan, “Mess around? What’s wrong with teaching a lesson to an indecent disciple of our sect?”

Jin Ling snorted, [...] Have you forgotten who he came with today? You want to teach him a lesson? Why don’t you ask HanGuang-Jun first?”

Hearing the name “HanGuang-Jun”, the boys all seemed nervous. Even if Lan WangJi wasn’t present, nobody dared to claim that they weren’t scared of HanGuang-Jun at all’

Jin Chan, “He shamelessly harassed LianFang-Zun, and you’re still talking in favor of him?”’

Once again, it seems that LWJ’s status protects ‘MXY’ from any real backlash, and we also see that the reason Jin Chan gives for wanting to ‘teach him a lesson’ and calling him ‘indecent’ is that he harassed JGY, not that he is a cut-sleeve. Although, once again, it is sort of hard to separate the two in this instance.

Also relevant, is that WWX says this to JL - ‘That’s right. I’ve fallen for someone else.” [...] “In the past, I couldn’t understand my own heart, but after I met HanGuang-Jun I’m certain.” He took in a deep breath, “I’m already incapable of leaving him. I don’t want anyone else aside from HanGuang-Jun…’ Later on, once WWX’s identity is revealed, he was terribly concerned about LWJ’s reputation being destroyed by fleeing with him, however he is not at all bothered that LWJ being seen as having a romantic relationship with him could affect his reputation. Being an associated of Yiling Laozu worse crime than being gay in MDZS, confirmed.

After having heard the full truth, WWX now concludes that the sole reason for MXY being kicked out, and the reaction to him, was harassing his half-brother - ‘“HanGuang-Jun, you’re here! Did you know? Mo XuanYu was kicked out of Carp Tower because he harassed Jin GuangYao. So that was why everyone looked at me so weirdly!”’ - furthermore suggesting that MXY’s sexuality itself really wasn’t all that scandalous, the other reasons given for his expulsion now coming across more as excuses to cover up the truth.

General reactions to WX/queerness

Sharing a bed

We are told in chapter 92 that WX typically share a bed, it’s only after hearing JC’s derogatory remarks about their relationship that WWX feels awkward about it, suggesting that while WX have been frequenting inns and sleeping in the same bed, no one has at any point expressed a negative or shocked reaction to them doing so. We also see the innkeeper from chapter 91 being completely unfazed - ‘“Young Masters, how many rooms would you like?” [...] The owner promptly answered herself, stating, “One room, right? One room is enough! My rooms here are comfy even for two people. The bed won’t feel cramped.”

When LWJ princess carries WWX in chapter 25

‘Aside from the front-desk worker who spat out a mouthful of water, the other bystanders didn’t act out of the ordinary.’’

Most people don’t react, and I’m not sure the worker’s reaction could definitively be called homophobic, we can’t be certain that they wouldn’t have the same reaction to LWJ carrying a woman like this. Considering societal standards of proper public behaviour, it seems the sight of LWJ carrying anyone like this would be shocking. (See WWX and JC’s reactions to Wen Chao’s PDA at the Wen indoctrination camp)

And we have NHS’s reaction…

‘After taking a closer look at the posture of the two men who entered the room, he gave a blank stare and barely completed his final sentence, “…. I really don’t know.” [...] Lan Wangji looked oblivious as he carried Wei Wuxian into the room and sat him down on a mat. Nie Huaisang looked as though he could not witness this any further, as he immediately opened up his fan and covered his face.

When looking at how NHS and the worker react to this, we should take into account why WWX was against it in the first place - ‘For a grown man to still need to be carried; that looks so bad.”’ Fyy’s, tmwx’s, exr’s, and the official translation, all used the word ‘grown man.’ that, along with the way this is phrased (across all translations) indicates that the reason WWX thinks this would look bad (or, ‘unsightly,’ in the official tl) is because of some notions of masculinity, and not at all to do with how people may perceive their sexuality.

So, we have plenty of indications that the reason for these reactions isn’t to do with any views or assumptions they make about WX’s relationship, and even if we assume that is the case, neither of them express anything resembling the disgust that JC expresses. It may also be the case that, since NHS should already know who WWX is at this point, that he has other reasons for hiding behind his fan.

Phoenix Mountain hunt

WWX throws a flower for LWJ along with the women, he does this in public no one is scandalised or offended by it, except for JC (known homophobe), who feels the need to apologise for WWX’s behaviour. Even when WWX says he did it because he ‘thinks LWJ looks nice,’ no one reacts, and he receives no backlash for this.

Jiang Sect

In the Lotus Seed Pod extra, WWX talks about how handsome LWJ is, saying he is even more attractive than himself, no one seems to regard this as weird.

Wen Ning

WN’s reaction after they have slept together - ‘Wen Ning noticed that his mood wasn’t as usual. He paused what he was doing, “Young Master, did something happen?”

He walked a few steps towards Wei WuXian before suddenly halting, and quickly backing away.

Wei WuXian hesitated in confusion, “What are you doing this time?” Wen Ning seemed as if he was scared, waving his hands, “No, no. Nothing!”

Wei WuXian could tell at first glance that he was feeling embarrassed. Unconsciously, he glanced at himself, and realized he had a few red fingerprints on his wrists, [...] He touched his lips. They were also still slightly swollen. [...] His neck was probably quite a scene as well.

If Wen Ning had any blood on his face, he would’ve been blushing so hard the bleed seeped out.’

WN is embarrassed (and, I think, embarrassed that he incidentally asked WWX about something private), but he’s not scandalised, shocked or disgusted. He’s already seen plenty of interactions between WX with romantic implications before (the kissing figures LWJ drew on the wall, LWJ tying WWX with the forehead ribbon, the boat in yunmeng, etc) - he is overall very unfazed by it.

Likewise, WWX isn’t at all concerned about WN noticing this, he doesn’t try to hide it, he moves on as if nothing is out of the ordinary.

Wen Qing, in chapter 75

‘She wanted to check on Wei WuXian’s injuries, but he got there before she could. She paused with surprise. Lan WangJi was almost embracing Wei WuXian as he held his hand and passed spiritual energy to him.’

Is hard to say what she is surprised by - that the normally uptight and stoic man is holding WWX like this, would her reaction be that different if WX were not the same gender? Either way, it's a pretty mild reaction, it’s certainly not a negative reaction. When WWX pretends to faint later on, and LWJ catches him and is similarly concerned, she has no reaction at all. Later on, when she asks WWX about LWJ, it seems that she suspects there is more to their relationship than WWX is letting on, like WN, she is unfazed by it.

Lan Jingyi

While he does exhibit some homophobic behaviour, unlike JC and JL, LJY has no immediate negative reaction to MXY's sexuality - he neither says or does anything throughout WWX’s whole initial performance to humiliate the Mo family. His first direct interaction with him in chapter 3 is - ‘“Go back, this is not somewhere you should be.” He was trying to chase Wei Wuxian out, but it was said with good intentions. The disciple’s tone was different from the disparaging tone used by the Mo Family servants.’ It’s pretty clear he harbours no real ill feelings towards him. When LJY gets annoyed at him for taking their flag, he calls him a lunatic, but he makes no remark about his sexuality. He doesn’t at any point during the rest of the Mo Manor arc, on Dafan Mountain, nor even outside CR, even when WWX says things like ‘with so many beautiful young men in your sect, I’m afraid that I won’t be able to control myself.”’

There is only one time in MDZS that LJY uses the phrase ‘damn cut-sleeve’ - ‘Lan JingYi seized him furiously, “You damn cut-sleeve! I-i-is he someone you could peek at?!”’ This is specifically in reaction to WWX spying on LWJ in the cold spring, it seems it was this offense against LWJ that angered him enough to actually make this remark towards WWX. It is clearly an impulsive reaction to WWX’s behaviour, LJY hadn’t expressed any negative attitude about his sexuality before this point. TBH, it comes across as if LJY is just repeating some insult that he’s heard before, rather than actually holding any deeply rooted prejudice about it. I’m not saying it's okay but I think it’s pretty dramatic to compare this at all to the homophobia that JC, and even JL, exhibit.

That being said, LJY is frequently rude to WWX throughout the beginning of the novel, though this always seems to be in reaction to WWX’s purposefully outrageous & offensive behaviour, its hard to say if he would have had the same reaction if WWX had just been like, a regular gay dude. LJY also insists that LWJ is not a cut-sleeve when WWX claims he slept with him - ‘“You’re so shameless and brazen! Hanguang Jun isn’t gay. He slept with you?!’ LJY seems to at least partially find this so hard to believe because he thinks that someone like LWJ wouldn’t want to sleep with someone like ‘MXY’ who behaves so improperly. When it becomes very clear that LWJ is in fact gay, LJY doesn’t have trouble accepting it.

Lan Sect

The reaction to WWX pulling off LWJ’s forehead ribbon at the Qishan archery competition - ‘Arm around his younger brother, Lan XiChen talked to the unspeaking Lan WangJi in a low voice. All of the others seemed similarly serious, as though they were facing a powerful enemy. They shook their heads as they spoke, glancing at Wei WuXian with odd, indescribable looks on their faces.

Wei WuXian only heard a few vague terms, such as “accident”, “calm down”, “no need to worry”, “a man”, “the sect rules”, and so on.’

Once again, it is hard to separate how much of this reaction is due to WWX being male, or how much of it is because it's regarded as indecent for anyone to touch the forehead ribbon. It’s also hard to say if we should assume the whole group was scandalised because WWX is a man, or if that ‘a man’ reflects the views of one person. Funny if all these people just know LWJ is gay and that’s why they’d find it more scandalous that he is a man.

Their reaction to ‘MXY’ - ‘Wei Wuxian had already sneakily crept up behind him, and gleefully exclaimed to himself in a loud voice, “Good good good, we can finally descend this mountain and elope!”

The crowd cringed from his words. The older disciples were especially horrified, but some of the younger disciples were somewhat used to this.’

Its not clear how much of their reaction is due to how outlandish WWX’s behaviour is, or if it is because he is a man, the reaction of ‘cringing’ seems to indicate the former rather than the latter. We should also consider how very easy it is to horrify Lan elders, with things like walking too fast or sitting improperly. LWJ appears unaffected by their reaction.

Other than that, we know that WX live happily married in the CR, and when LXC recounts the story of them finding LWJ post-nightless city, he doesn’t say anything to imply that they found it do be particularly shocking or bad that LWJ is in love with a man.

Jin Ling

I don’t think it is at all a coincidence that the two overtly homophobic characters we see in MDZS are related, he not only repeatedly calls WWX a ‘damn cut-sleeve,’ he also refers to it as an ‘incurable disease’, but he does get over it soon enough. Interestingly, he seems to lose all homophobic sentiments towards WWX once he founds out his true identity. This is relevant due to what WWX speculates - ‘The reason he [JL] was disgusted at Mo XuanYu was not only that he was a cut-sleeve, but likely also that the one Mo XuanYu harassed was his own uncle.’ This also makes sense considering JL’s insistence that ‘MXY’ stay away from members of his sect specifically. So, even one of the characters that we see being homophobic the most in MDZS, has other reasons contributing to his attitude.

Some more points, while we see WWX being cautious to publicly use modao, he is not at all afraid of receiving backlash for his 'lunatic cut-sleeve MXY' performance, indicating that it's not something WWX considers likely to happen, or a real threat. Wangxian do also not go to any particular lengths to hide their relationship, flirting with each other in public in chapter 112 & in the Dream Come True extra. They even kiss in the restaurant, although they do hide what they are doing, this can easily be attributed to taboos against pda (again, see the reaction to WC & WLJ in the Wen indoctrination camp).

That being said, while it is pretty clear looking at the evidence above that someone with LWJ's status and reputation could never receive public backlash for such a thing, others without the social protections that high status affords easily could. The obvious example being MXY, who was abused by his family. Additionally, it is his association with LWJ that makes the Jin disciples fearful to attack him during the discussion conference. If LWJ was not someone of high status who did things like carry WWX in Qinghe and make no real effort to hide his sexuality, would people let it slide so easily? Possibly not - we see repeatedly throughout the novel that LWJ can get away with things that would otherwise be regarded as scandalous. Even so, looking at MXY's story in more detail, it is clear that even he wasn't actually treated with condemnation purely for his sexuality.

So, overall, while queerness is not the norm in MDZS, it is clearly not regarded as a strong social taboo either - the reactions we see are varied but more often than not, characters don't seem to find it all that unusual. Reactions such as JC's are presented as outliers.

#mdzs #mdzs meta #there are probably a few other things to say about mxy and mo manor but... i cba to write anymore on this lol

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vrishchikawrites · 3 years ago

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I can't help but dislike lan xichen because he called wei wuxian a mistake. I know he's a good character and he had ever reason to be upset, but something about that conversation just bothers me. I don't know why it does.

Hm, I get you. I think this is a clear example of a character's actions having a different impact on the reader than on the plot.

Plot-wise, Xichen's reaction is 100% justified. He a worried older brother. He knows LWJ loves WWX and has been rejected by him. He is concerned that LWJ would get his heart broken again. It is an understandable concern. When you look at everything objectively, we have no reason to be angry at LXC for his reaction.

But the readers have just gone through 100 chapters of people just having a go at WWX for every fucking thing, whether it is his fault or not, with not a single apology in sight.

That's why we see many people so unreasonably pissed at LXC.

It is just another thing that WWX has to silently accept. When he was kid, he was called a bastard and abused. That abuse goes unacknowledged. The fall of LP is laid at his feet, he has to deal with it. He pays off his debt and goes through horrifying trauma, that goes unacknowledged too. He faces a lot of injustice and accusations (a lot of times those accusations are baseless and spiteful), he has to accept and brush it aside. He does this again and again. Not a single person acknowledges that it was wrong to put a man through this.

LXC then comes along to say WWX is LWJ's only mistake. WWX again brushes it aside and focuses on important matters. But it has to hurt. WWX loves LWJ at this point. He just as to accept that the entire Lan clan probably thinks the same (with good reason in their eyes but that doesn't change the fact that it will hurt) Then we have LQR at CR post canon asking everyone to stay away from WWX. He brushes it aside. Look, WWX understood that the juniors turned and walked away from him because of LQR's rule and they would meet anyways. But it was still another injustice. Remember this point for me, I will come back to it.

Everything, he just has to deal with and forget. Not one time does anyone acknowledge the shit people just carelessly hurl at WWX and forget about it.

WWX being WWX, he doesn't care and will probably continue to live happily. But he has taken a lot of hits with no resolution from everyone. By this stage, readers have reached saturation point with the amount of BS WWX has to put up with and forgive.

LWJ loves WWX and that is the only saving grace in this entire situation.

LXC is like the last straw off the camel's back, so to speak. This is another careless, hurtful comment flung at WWX in anger and WWX is just made to bear it.

It is natural to be a little pissed at LXC, even if it is unreasonable. After all, LWJ is the only person WWX has in his corner (aside from WN). By calling WWX LWJ's mistake, LXC essentially said WWX didn't deserve even that bit of happiness.

But that is a reader's emotional response to the story. It isn't actually LXC's character at fault. He is being perfectly reasonable given how much information he has.

The fact is, readers are invested in WWX by this point and we're being told -yeah people just fling accusations and abuses at the character we want you to love, no one apologizes for it, even the kind older brother thinks he's trash, but the guy we made you love is just gonna shrug it all off and be happy because that's just him. And you can't be a little bit mad about it.

Lmao, that's a bit of excellent writing but it is also immensely irritating.

Now, onto a more serious observation. WWX is essentially alone and socially isolated at this point. Before his death, he had WQ, WN, and the remnants with him.

Post canon, he only has LWJ and WN and even WN rightfully chooses to live his own life.

We love and trust LWJ but that man has a rock solid support system. A brother, an uncle, a sect, society's respect, status, and wealth.

WWX has none of that. As attached readers, we're asked to trust a beloved character into a family where - one important member thinks WWX is a mistake and the other actively tries to keep him away from other sect members.

Then we're asked to trust that LWJ is all WWX will ever need. I can tell you- in marriage, you need a few people other than your spouse to stay in your corner if there's conflict. Even if the conflict is minor. The situation here is - WWX lacks a support system outside of LWJ. LWJ's family and the society as a whole will consider it ABSOLUTELY HIS FAULT if things go even a little sideways.

That, nonny, is something that people may realize and feel very uncomfortable about. That may be one of the reasons why LXC words hit a little harder. Because of course, the sect leader and brother's first concern is gonna be LWJ if there's an event where LWJ needs protecting from WWX.

But who protects WWX if he, in an unlikely event, needs protecting from LWJ?

(I want to make it clear that I don't consider WWX weak or vulnerable. He can take care of himself even if the entire world turns again him. and he certainly won't face any issues with lwj by his side. But it is a situation that can be a tad troubling if you look too deeply. )

#reader asks #stream of thoughts #have been thinking about this for a while

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danhoemei · 3 years ago

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What do you think of the reconciliation of Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng that is confirmed (post canon) in Lan Wangji's letter?

Tbh I just learnt something new from you anon lmao.

First of all, let's establish the post canon here, as I found that it's from cql. I come from the novel so I had no idea about it.

Although all adaptations spring from the same source, all of them have smaller or bigger differences and divergences. Thus, it's not that easy to say what is "canon" here, e.g. something that happens in the drama doesn't mean that it's canon for the novel as well, and the other way around, and as I've seen so far both are quite different in some aspects, maybe even with a few contradictions.

Another thing is the source of the information. For me the strongest will always be the source material, and additional bits of information from interviews, author's posts etc. can be treated with less weight. I had experiences in other fandoms or media where the author started spewing nonsense out of spite, or literally contradicted what was in the original story, so since then I take additional bits added post-release as a free candy which I can take or not.

Now, coming back to mdzs's adaptations. The manhua and donghua are considerably close to the novel, so I consider the novel as the scroll of truth here. However, when it comes to the drama I kind of think of it as an alternate version with its own rights, and I personally pretty much separate these two. So I'd say that the letter could be treated as canon for cql, but not necessarily for the novel.

So now the question is, do I take this candy?

Gods in all heavens, heck yes.

Even though I treat all adaptations more or less separate, there are certain parts which I will fiercely headcanon no matter what, in all of them. And one of these things is that yunmeng bros need each other and will gravitate towards each other whether they want it or not. Initially, the main reason could be only jin ling. They love him and care about him, so even if both of them avoided each other they would still have this connection and possibly bump into each other from time to time. Jin ling is the last part of their family who they loved very much, but both of them are also these last bits of it. And it is very clear how strong a family instinct they have. Yunmeng is also wwx's home, where he grew up and what he longed for many times, no matter how much time passed. He would want to come back there from time to time, even if he was thrown away from lotus pier. What about jiang cheng, who threw him out? Even when he shouted at wwx to leave (before the whole golden core revelation), to me it seemed like another thing he spouted in the heat of the moment when his emotions and grievances took reins, as he instantly froze and tried to stop wwx who complied and turned away. So I don't imagine him taking excessive steps to keep wwx away later on, especially after his approach changed quite significantly towards the end, even towards wen ning who he initially hated with every fiber of his being.

And don't get me wrong - I don't see them as sweet bros longing for each other who just need to sit down once and talk and it'll be dandy. They have a ton of issues (mostly on jiang cheng’s side) and unspoken secrets between each other which are not easy to disclose but which hold them back very significantly. Mostly jiang cheng needs to change for this to happen, let his thick as hell walls drop a bit to be less on guard and be more open, and stop constantly hurting others because of his lack of control and toxic coping mechanisms. All that stems from childhood trauma, severe inferiority complex, pathological parents who didn't give him support and love he needed. But not one thing from these justifies his behaviour and how he compensates or lashes out when anything triggers him. Still, in the root of his being is love and care for his family, which could be seen so many times when he made sacrifices in order to protect his loved ones or the whole sect, each time when he's overprotective of jin ling, also each time he helped wwx despite being very vocal about the opposite. He's a contradictory character with tons of issues, which he unfortunately takes out on others.

So their reconciliation in my eyes is not gonna be easy and fast. It's a long and bumpy road, began with a long period of absence from each other's lives, then featuring arguments or clashes, unsaid feelings, secrets, and sacrifices finally spilling (probably in shouting voices and tears). I like to think that with time jiang cheng could mature emotionally and learn to be healthier, not only thanks to being surrounded by people who love him and care for him, but also because maybe those people could open his eyes on his behaviour and teach him a bit. As jin ling grows older, he could get bolder and more confident, and say what he doesn’t like about his uncle’s way of being or treating others. I also like to imagine wwx being more direct in his grievances or reproaches and basically being done with jiang cheng’s bs, because he is now happy, with lwj by his side, and may learn to prioritise himself instead of constantly giving to others and sacrificing himself and his own comfort. If jiang cheng is like that then why should wwx deal with him, if he doesn't feel like it? So what if it's jiang cheng who needs to swallow his pride and finally make the first move, if he actually wants any kind of contact with his brother? Maybe there is a banquet at yunmeng after a long time passes, and he invites wwx. Maybe it doesn’t go so well but later on they still keep bumping into each other and having smaller or bigger conversations, maybe meanwhile jin ling gets involved in something and they collaborate to help him. Bit by bit, I like to think that they both slowly (and finally) learn and understand each other more. And that at some point they'd be like a true and close family, not the one they were - something different, more grown up and mature. That they can travel to each other, have casual conversations and goof around, maybe steal some lotus pods together again, but this time with more mirth and fun than those competitive teenage years way back.

I just... want these two to be happy and there for each other ;__; They lost so much, but they still have each other and I don’t want them to forget that as well, especially when they clearly have so much love and care in them ;___;

So yes, I am very much into taking the letter as a general canon for me, because this is already what I headcanoned anyway ;d

And just a reminder! This is all my own self indulgent headcanon based on my interpretation of these characters and their relationship (rather from the novel’s perspective, I can’t talk with confidence about the drama). Take what you want from it, or don’t take anything at all. These are stories made for us to enjoy and reflect on, not fight or spread hate over, so go wild with your imagination and headcanons, enjoy and have fun <3

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twolonesomestars · 4 years ago

Text

BJYX III

Japan Trip

This is a compilation post explaining the Japan trip and related theories (along with my own thoughts). Most of the theories in here are well-known. If you know the general gist of the Japan trip, you probably won’t see anything new.

Warning: This is all fake. Don’t take what I say to heart. These are just my random thoughts.

Extremely long post. Please beware.

All my explanations and thoughts will be bracketed and italicized: [like this]. If you would like to just read about the theories, ignore the bracketed and italicized bits.

I suggest reading all of the theories first and creating your own opinion on the trip before reading my commentary, especially if you’re a new fan. (AKA ignore the bracketed & italicized parts for now).

[One last thing before I start (and a test for those who want to read the theories first… ignore this for now): I believe this Japan trip changed their relationship… In that, I believe they began their romantic relationship after this trip. A quick timeline mention: truthfully, their relationship before and during CQL filming isn’t too important for this theory. However, I do believe that there was some sort of confession from WYB at the end of filming, which may have played a role in XZ’s decision to take the trip to Japan. I’ll provide my reasoning later in the post. All my explanations and thoughts are going to be based on these particular assumptions; although, I will try to include rebuttals & explanations based on countering arguments.]

OUTLINE

DATES

PRE-JAPAN TRIP

Character Bleed Changed Phone Number

MID-JAPAN TRIP

XZ’s 180911 Post + Story

POST-JAPAN TRIP

XZ’s 180913 Post & Story XZ’s 181119 Post WYB’s 181119 Post Time Gap WYB’s 190322 Post

FINAL THOUGHTS

Let’s get into it!

DATES:

180416 - 180823 Filming for CQL

180908 - 180912 XZ’s Japan trip

180913 - XZ posted his 521st Weibo post & 18th Weibo story

181005 - XZ’s Birthday

181119 @ 17:42 - XZ’s Japan trip post

181119 @ 18:47 - WYB’s response post

190322 - WYB’s Rome trip post

PRE-JAPAN TRIP:

Character Bleed

XZ’s reasoning behind his Japan trip in this interview @ 9:31

XZ explicitly says, “I told myself I had to walk out of it.” His reasoning being, “[I had to] leave him there. [I had to] return him to the one he loves.”

You can unpack a lot from that. I got two main things from it:

(“I had to walk out of it”): you can assume that XZ took everything from WWX and made it his own, including, and specifically, WWX’s love for LWJ. Essentially, by the end of filming, XZ himself was in love with LWJ.

(“return him to the one he loves”): XZ separates himself very clearly from WWX. He points out his reasoning to walk it off is him wanting to return WWX to the one he loves… the implication is that he figured out he doesn’t love the one WWX loves.

[The reason I think there was some sort of confession at the end of filming that pushed XZ to take this trip and figure himself out is because he already knew he loved LWJ. I think he may have attributed any romantic feelings he felt towards WYB to the fact that he plays the character he loves. So, if WYB confessed to wanting to pursue a romantic relationship with him, it makes sense that XZ would hesitate. I doubt he’d want to lead WYB on just to later realize all of his feelings were for LWJ and not him. I’m sure XZ would’ve walked off WWX eventually, but I think he did it as quickly as he could to give a certain person (and himself) answers.

Obviously, I don’t know how XZ goes about with his acting, so these are all just random assumptions.]

Changed Phone Number

I’ve gotten a few asks wanting me to clarify and give my opinion on the rumor about XZ changing his number and WYB asking around for it. I’ve heard two versions of this:

The first version has two variations:

XZ changed his number sometime after his DDU appearance in 2017 and before CQL began shooting, and WYB was asking the CQL crew for it.

XZ changed his number during CQL filming sometime, and WYB was asking the CQL crew for it.

The second version is that XZ changed his number before he left to Japan and WYB was asking around for it for months (who he was asking was undefined).

A related rumor I want to note: a fan who was at the airport when XZ was waiting for his flight to Japan supposedly saw him not answering his phone.

Let me clarify the relationship between WeChat & phone numbers:

In WeChat, every registered user gets a WeChat ID. There are three main ways people can add someone: (1) have the person’s WeChat ID (2) have the person’s phone number (3) have access to the person’s QR code. For (1) and (2), the other person must enable the option to be found via WeChat ID or phone number in order for you to find them. You can also choose to not show your phone number at all, so even if someone adds you via (1) or (3), they may still not have access to your number depending on your settings. To sum it up, you do NOT need to know another person’s phone number to message them on WeChat. Practically everyone in China uses WeChat as their main social messaging application… you can send messages (text & voice) and you can call (voice-only & video). People don’t use their actual given numbers to message or call too much (ex. iPhone messaging/ Facetime); phone numbers are typically used when making accounts on various social media apps, online payment, etc.

There’s a pretty well-backed up theory that WYB asked one of his DDU co-hosts (specifically DZW) if he could get XZ’s WeChat ID for him during/ after filming the episode with XNINE. If this theory is true, we can only be sure that he got XZ’s WeChat ID, not that he got his phone number.

If you do want to change your number or WeChat ID (prior to 2020, you could only change your WeChat ID once per account), you can simply go into the WeChat settings and update; this process won’t change your WeChat account and it won’t affect any of your contacts or chat history. If you want to stop receiving messages & calls from someone, you can either block or delete them from your contacts on the app.

I’m pointing all of this out because I’m pretty sure most of XZ’s & WYB’s communication takes place in WeChat. WYB has said in several interviews that he now prefers his phone and wifi access; he’s also said that he can’t go without WeChat now.

[I honestly don’t think this rumor is real. But, out of the two versions, I’d say the first version (either variation) makes more sense than the second version.

I have three reasons for thinking the second version is the most unlikely:

It’d be easier to block the other person for however long you need (and then unblock them or delete them depending on your choice later) rather than going through the hassle of changing your number. Remember when WYB’s phone number got leaked and he had to change it (August 2019)? He asked people to not use his number to log into accounts; he even mentioned that he would need to change all of them, which would be a large hassle. Sure, there could be circumstances where you’d want to change your phone number… but I don’t think this situation is that extreme, especially since it was supposedly at the airport before his trip and before he decided.

I don’t think XZ’s the type of person to leave someone hanging, no matter how much internal turmoil he may be dealing with, and especially not when that someone is close to him. I believe he’d at least inform others that he’ll be out of range and to not message or call him. Not to mention, if he told WYB to not contact him for the next couple of days, I’d like to believe WYB would respect that wish, whether he knew the reason or not. Since I do think that WYB confessed prior to the Japan trip, I believe he knew. But, even if he didn’t, he has integrity and self-respect. He’s going to respect others’ wishes, and even more so if he respects the other person… and he does respect XZ.

The theory specifically points out “months” … WYB literally celebrated XZ’s birthday with him about three weeks after this trip.

As for the first version:

Variation #1 implies that this happened at the start of filming/ bootcamp; it also implies that WYB got XZ’s number after he contacted him on WeChat. One assumption I have is: I don’t think celebrities/ people in the industry exchange phone numbers much, just their WeChat IDs. This is why I don’t think XZ & WYB exchanged numbers when they first met, only their WeChat IDs. As for WYB asking the crew for XZ’s number… if he already had XZ’s previous number, I kinda doubt he’d go around asking others when he could just ask XZ himself.

Variation #2 probably makes the most sense out of all three, and even then it’s a bit of a stretch. This variation implies that it’s a few months into filming, at which point XZ & WYB were extremely close. I doubt he’d be too nervous to ask XZ directly for his new number. The only rebuttal I could think of for this is that perhaps WYB asking around instead of asking XZ himself was him being coquettish.

In the end, this rumor doesn’t make too much sense to me. But take it as you will.]

MID-JAPAN TRIP:

XZ’s 180911 Post + Story

We know that he kept deleting his Weibo posts before the number could reach *520. (*520 & 521 are both kadian for “I love you” even though 520 is more widely used.)

XZ posted his 520th post on 180911 (right in the middle of his trip). It was an ad for AHC. AHC is the first brand both WYB & XZ shared and spoke for; I believe WYB stopped his spokesperson duties on 180829 & XZ began his on 180907.

XZ posted his 17th story, also on 180911, of him on a ferry during the trip.

[I burst out laughing when I realized he posted an ad for his 520th post. He kept deleting posts to make sure he stayed away from #520; he could’ve easily deleted another post to make the ad his 519th. A lot of solo fans were looking forward to his 520th post being dedicated to them (exhibit 1), and then he did that. Sly as per usual. And the 17th story... leading up to the 18th. I think XZ pretty much knew/ made his choice/ accepted his feelings by this point, which is why he posted like this.]

POST-JAPAN TRIP:

XZ’s 180913 Post & Story

XZ posted this video on Weibo on 180913. It was his *521th post & *18th story. (*52118 = “wo ai ni yi bo” A BXG posted about counting XZ’s posts to find these numbers.)

His caption was:

以为在拍照的找🤣... (夏天的风结束了，假期也结束了🌿🌿🎋)

which roughly translates to:

“I thought I was posing for a photo🤣... (The summer wind is over, the holiday is also over 🌿🌿🎋)”

There are several theories about the caption.

the emojis:

The bamboo emoji refers to WYB. In this behind the scenes footage, XZ compares WYB’s face to a bamboo stick.

the words:

XZ is referring to the season ending and the weather in the video where the wind is blowing across his face.

When XZ states that both the summer wind and his holiday are over, he is implying that he has left the character he became that summer (WWX) behind and moving forward.

XZ is referring to the song Summer Wind (夏天的风) by Liu Rui Qi (刘瑞琦). I’m not going to go too deep into this; the lyrics in question are:

夏天的风我永远记得清清楚楚地说你爱我我看见你酷酷的笑容也有腼腆的时候

roughly translates to

The summer wind, I will always remember [you] saying clearly that you love me. I saw your cool smile [yet] there are times when you are shy.

Interpretations are: (line 1) “summer wind” & “always remember” - XZ is reminiscing on the things that have happened that summer when CQL was filmed. (line 2) “saying clearly… you love me” - a confession from a certain someone… we know of one on camera: “zhan-ge didi ai ni.” (lines 3-4) “cool smile” & “shy” - these adjectives fit a person we know.

[I didn't find out about half of these caption theories until way later, and once I had already formed my opinion on this trip. A lot of it seems like a stretch, but all the theories make some sort of sense. Meh, there’s a lot you can do with a caption, so just take it all in.

Personally, I didn’t pay attention to the caption too much. I knew about the lyrics, but I purposely avoided them precisely because they were lyrics; you can do a lot with them. I finally explored it for this post, and I actually like it a lot; it’s very sweet. I’m still leaning towards the reference being unlikely; however, XZ is very sneaky, so I wouldn’t put it past him. I also knew about the bamboo reference, but I never gave it much thought. I didn’t think that one scene of them joking around was enough to say that he used the emoji to refer to WYB. Though, if it was actually a reference, there’s definitely more to it that we don’t know about. Ultimately, for this one, my decision was based on the basics: the kadian (and later reinforced by the whole AHC ad post).]

XZ’s 181119 Post @ 17:42

A major theory for this post comes from his caption:

“一些存货... 现代人即将拥有姓名 [’silent giggling’ emoji]... ”

roughly translates to

“some stock [photos]... modern man will soon be named...”

The main focus here is the “modern man.”

Once the behind the scenes footage and interviews began releasing, BXG started noticing how WYB got whenever XZ mentioned LWJ. His facial expressions always changed… immediate frowns. BXG speculated that WYB was trying to show himself as separate from his character, but XZ didn’t take notice. The character LWJ is figuratively and literally from the past; the actor on the other hand is from modern society. Thus, XZ mentioning modern man was taken to be a reference to XZ’s love for the actor alone, not the character.

[To those who have sent asks about the “modern man” quote, I hope this clears it up. My interpretation of it is the same. At the end of the day, XZ most definitely separated the two.]

Another theory for this one is that the horizontal middle row pictures spell out “王一博” going from left to right.

王 (“wáng”)

The lines on the building look like the character

He could’ve meant “look towards,” which is what he’s doing in the picture. It is a different character (“望”), and has a slightly different pronunciation (“wàng”)

He could’ve meant “going in one direction,” referring to the arrow on the sign, which is a different character (“往”), and has a slightly different pronunciation (“wǎng”)

一 (yī)

The image looks like the character

博 (bó)

Another meaning for “博” is “extensive” or “rich” which you can take the design on the outside of the to be

The building is a museum, whose word (“博物馆”) begins with “博”

[For the spelling, my interpretations were all of the #1s. (I’ll explain a little bit more when we get to WYB’s 190322 post.)]

One last theory about this post: BXG then witnessed XZ editing his post in real time to change the position of the first two pictures. There’s a theory that he saw this post (below) from the previous day and changed the positions to match.

OP talking about the switch here and below.

[I was so enamored by this theory until I actually went looking for it. The post of WYB’s pictures is from a fan, and while I don’t doubt that they saw more of fans’ posts back then, this one wasn’t tagged or anything. It could easily have been XZ’s artist side popping up. But, maybe XZ was lurking on his private account. Even though it’s one of the more iffy ones, it’s such a cute theory that I actually don’t mind believing it.]

This is a side note and not part of the actual theory: On my search for all things related to this trip, I noticed one of WYB’s posts where he did a similar thing.

This was in June 2018, so before XZ’s post. Mayhaps inspiration.

WYB’s 181119 Post @ 18:47

WYB posted exactly *1:05 hours after XZ posted. (*105 = 10/5, XZ’s birthday)

His caption was “冒个泡”

He was using internet slang; it can be vaguely translated to “I am here.” In context, he’s using the slang to refer to him not posting for a long time; he’s ‘showing his presence.’

Notable Things:

He posted the day prior on 181118; it wasn’t an ad, but it wasn’t exactly personal either.

He posted a picture of himself with his DDU brothers during a trip on 181104.

He had not posted a selfie since 181004. (Back then, he updated personal posts once or twice a week, whether it was a selfie or something about his life, such as what show he was watching. The month & a half time gap between personal posts would’ve been unusual.)

The caption & selfie work as a response to XZ’s “modern man will soon be named.”

Another thing fans were intrigued about was the time stamp on the photo, 180525.

WYB never really posts throwbacks, especially with selfies, yet he did one here to a date in the middle of CQL filming. He also usually never adds the date to his photos.

Isn’t it interesting that he captions the post with slang that tells people he’s back from a break, but uses an old photo instead of a new one? If someone’s announcing that they’re coming back from a break (especially a celebrity), wouldn’t it make more sense to post a recent photo rather than an old one (in this case, one from 6 months ago)? And, why even bother including the date in the first place?

[I can’t believe I barely noticed that WYB posted 1:05 hours after XZ. What in the world WYB? I’m losing my mind. It’s down to the damn minute, and their minutes weren’t a “0” or “5” multiple either. I usually try to pass off a lot of things regarding YiZhan (especially kadian) as coincidences, but what even is this? If it wasn’t intentional… What kind of connection do these two share?

Yes, I do think this was WYB’s response. The throwback picture was probably the most telling for me; him including the date he took the photo was like a flashing sign saying: ‘hey look at this date. it’s important.’ And when you add the caption into the mix, it’s taken to another level. I feel the combination of hints in and related to the post is too much and too telling to be coincidental.]

Time Gap

There’s an interesting time gap between the two XZ’s posts (180913 & 181119). There are a few theories about what could’ve happened in those two months. Some of the ones I’ve seen and heard are:

XZ & WYB could’ve been taking that time to tell their parents and settle things with their agencies

XZ & WYB could’ve begun dating exclusively after XZ’s return

Both of these theories imply that everything got settled or made official around 181119.

[I never really thought about the time gap between the posts… mostly because I kept forgetting there even was one. They’re both ridiculously romantic so I don’t doubt that 181119 is something of importance to them. I think it’s especially proving that both of them did a throwback to the same seemingly important time period.]

WYB’s 190322 Post

This post is pretty similar to XZ’s 181119 throwback post to the Japan trip. The theory for this one is that WYB spelled out “肖战” using the vertical middle row, going from top to bottom.

肖 - The tree looks like the top part of the “肖” character; the branches look like the bottom part of it.

战 - Since WYB placed an image of the entire Roman colosseum (where gladiator battles took place) in the last spot, he may have been alluding to how “战” means “battle” or “fight” (similar to how XZ may have been alluding to the meaning of “博” instead of getting a picture of the character).

WYB filmed the DDU episode on 3/22; I don’t believe there’s another significance to the date.

[WYB spelling out the “肖” using the first two pictures backs up my thinking that XZ spelled out the “王” and “一” characters in his first two pictures. This also leads me to think that both of them alluded to each other’s last character rather than spelling it out in their third pictures.]

FINAL THOUGHTS:

[The reason I like this overall theory a lot is because I think the happenings really fit with the things they’ve told us in interviews and suit their personalities. It makes sense to me that XZ would want to take some time to think about it; it makes sense to me that WYB was probably the one who took the first step.

As for the theories about the details… some of them are really out there, but all of them are fun to consider. As usual, take everything with a grain of salt.]

Some of these posts & events have several theories (i.e. XZ’s summer wind caption); they aren’t mutually exclusive… more than one can be true at the same time.

I tried to be as neutral as I could when explaining these theories. I tried to include counters and other possibilities, but I’m sure some bias came out. Just take it all in and take it for what it is.

My intention with this post was to put everything into perspective and give a good timeline. (As well as get everything in one place.) If you’re interested in my thoughts, feel free to go back and read the italicized & bracketed parts (if you hadn’t already).

The following is something I want to say about these theories and the BXG community in general:

Every theory has inconsistencies and exaggerations… that’s what makes it a theory. As long as we discuss things knowing this fact, that’s all that matters. We’re here to have fun, not to prove what’s right or wrong.

I love seeing the various theories everyone in this community puts out, no matter how different or similar they are to the ones I like/ believe in. It’s fun to look into these things with different perspectives. Don’t feel burdened if you believe in a less popular theory. Besides, we will never know anything for sure.

Be kind. And, have a good time.

Once again, this is all fake. I do not personally know XZ & WYB, and I will never know anything about them; this includes the intricacies of whatever relationship they share. So, CPN.

#don't ask me why it took so long lol #japan trip #yizhan #bjyx

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ouyangzizhensdad · 4 years ago

Note

So one thing I am confused about. I see a lot of takes on how Wwx acted like a gay stereotype in the first few chapters. And this is pointed out as a mark of his homophobia (as in he's homophobic because he thinks that's how a gay person would act). But, from context of the book, it seems to me he's weaponizing what *society* will think a gay man would act like to get out of what he views as a dangerous situation? As in, to me he's deliberately playing up stereotypes... (1/2)

(2/2) to make people uncomfortable and leave him alone. This isn't to say he's not internalized some stuff. Working through those feelings is a major part of the book. But it feels like people seem to be missing the fact that he's using how people are uncomfortable with Mxy as a means to get out of what he sees as a tight situation. Rather like how we get a woman using 'lady problems' as an excuse to make men uncomfortable and leave her alone. Or am I completely of the mark?

Oh anon, dear anon, how did you know I’ve been meaning to write a post about this since I’ve first been introduced to these takes? Have you taken a trip to the dark recesses of my mind lately (or maybe spied on my drafts)?

Before we get started, I do want to address the fact that the ExR translation, which is generally how international fans first access the novel, uses terms/ways of phrasing things about cut-sleeves that make it seem more connoted than what you can see in the original chinese, thereby colouring how we may perceive WWX’s opinions on cutsleeves (since he is the narrator). If you compare pumpkinpaix’s translation of chapter 2 to that of ExR’s, you may understand what I mean (I personally went and checked the original with my limited chinese skills and pumpkinpaix’s is the most faithful translation imo).

Compare and contrast:

Pumpkinpaix’s translation: “Thank goodness, this body had not been born with a strange appearance, only strange tastes. Here was a grown man who not only wore a full face of rouge and powder, but wore it in such an ugly fashion!“

ExR scans’ translation: “Fortunately, the body wasn’t born this way—it was only one of the owner’s penchants. He was no-doubt a man, yet he was covered with makeup (not to mention, badly applied makeup). Ugh, how unbearable!“

And another:

Pumpkinpaix’s translation: “Not only chased, but banished with great shame: for Mo Xuanyu was a cutsleeve who even dared to recklessly molest and harass his peers. With this public scandal, along with the mediocrity of his talent and the insignificance of his cultivation progress, there was no reason to let him stay in the family any longer.

To make matters worse, no one knew what kind of shock he’d suffered, but after he returned, he seemed to have gone completely mad. He had good days and bad—it was as if he had been scared witless. After reading to this point, Wei Wuxian furrowed his brow. Being just a cutsleeve was one thing, but a lunatic as well! No wonder his face was all covered in powder and rouge like an old hanged ghost, and no wonder no one found the bloody array surprising.”

ExR scans’ translation: “On top of that, he was driven back shamefully.Mo XuanYu was homosexual, and had enough nerve to harass the other disciples. The scandal was revealed to the public and, as he had few achievements in terms of cultivation, there were no reasons for him to stay in the clan.Like adding frost to snow, aside from the event itself, when Mo XuanYu returned, he often behaved in a crazy manner, almost as if his life was scared out of him.The story was almost too complex to be put into words. Wei WuXian’s eyebrows twitched.Not only a lunatic, a homosexual lunatic as well. That explained why there were enough rouge and powder on his face to make him look like a hanged ghost, and also why nobody was surprised at the large, bloody array on the ground.”

See how the latter translation makes it seem as if WWX were thinking that being a gay lunatic is worse than being a lunatic, and that him being a ‘gay lunatic’ explains his appearance; whereas, in the former, it appears to be more of a comment about how MXY was perceived by his family as a disgrace, and underlines that the fact he is a “lunatic” explains how ‘usual’ his appearance and the shack’s disarray were to his cousin and his lackeys.

But to address your actual point, I think saying that WWX weaponizes what society think of how a gay would act is still an oversimplification. WWX is in fact weaponizing the very specific nature of MXY’s reputation, which includes him being known to be:

a lunatic

a cutsleeve

a molester/harasser

The fact that people even suggest that this is how WWX views gay people is ludicrous to me because of the context in which it is presented in the novel. WWX is not trying to “pass” as MXY by attempting what he believes to be an authentic performance of being a gay man. WWX, from the get-go, acts in public in ways that are incompatible with what he knows of MXY. When he first gets out of the shack, he acts in ways he knows are contrary to how MXY would have acted.

“Thinking to recover the face he’d [A-Tong] just lost, he jumped over and, like one would reprimand a dog, waved his hand and scolded, “Shoo, shoo! Go back! What did you come out for!”

Even towards a beggar or a fly, one wouldn’t be more unpleasant. These servants had very likely acted like this towards Mo Xuanyu in the past. After all, he never resisted, so they could be this unscrupulously reckless. Wei Wuxian, with a light kick, knocked A’Tong head over heels, laughing, “Now, who is it you think you’re insulting?”

Finished kicking, he followed the sound of the hubbub, walking towards the east.“ [Chapter 3 ]

Instead, WWX weaponizes MXY’s reputation (the trifecta of lunatic-cutsleeve-harasser) whenever he needs it to either 1) get the information he needs/test a theory, 2) manipulate people into certain actions 3) quickly get out of a sticky situation. Again, it is not meant to be an authentic representation of what he believes to be a gay man: it is a targeted attack with expected results.

Let’s take for instance the East Hall Scene at Mo Mansion. WWX goes there, and slips into a lunatic persona which, from what we can infer by the Mo Family’s reaction, is not even a close performance of MXY’s “lunacy”. At this point, WWX is trying to test out if publicly humiliating the Mo Family will be enough to fulfill his part of the contract MXY forced upon him. It is the first time he brings up MXY’s being a cutsleeve, and he does so in the process of trying to cause disgrace by implying his cousin might not have had pure intentions towards him. The text makes it clear that he is only doing so to attack the Mo Family’s face, implying unspeakable designs upon MXY by his cousin.

Unexpectedly, Wei Wuxian spoke again, “Speaking of, he not only shouldn’t have stolen my things, he really shouldn’t have gone to steal them in the middle of the night. Who doesn’t know, this son here likes men! He might not know shame, but I know not to tie my shoes in a melon patch!”

Madam Mo gasped in horror, shouting, “What are you saying in front of your village elders! How can you have so little face; A’Yuan is your younger cousin!”

When it came to wild displays of atrocious behavior, Wei Wuxian was a master. In the past when he ran wild, he still had to mind appearances for he couldn’t let others accuse him of having no family upbringing, but now since he was a lunatic anyways, what face did he need! He could go straight to making a scene, acting on whatever pleased him. He straightened his neck and stated with righteous confidence, “He clearly knows he’s my younger cousin, and he still didn’t try to avoid arousing suspicion—exactly who has less face?! If you don’t want any, fine, but don’t spoil my innocence! I still want to find a good man!!!” [Chapter 3]

It is also important to remember MXY’s reputation as a molester/harrasser, which WWX leans into at certain points in the novel (for instance when he gets ‘caught’ trying to steal LWJ’s seal to exit the Cloud Recesses and pretends to have been spying on him bathing to try to get kicked out instead). I do not consider that WWX actually believes at face-value the accusations; like LWJ, he is wary of judging without having all the information, having himself suffered groundless accusations (and, surprise surprise, it turns out the accusations were fabricated by JGY! btw, for all the people out there who say MXTX is homophobic because she wrote a gay character who’s a molester...... i am begging you to get some reading comprehension, even store-bought is fine at this point). And if people think MXTX did not mean to emphasize the importance of that reputation, I ask them to please pay attention to what is said before WWZ implies JC is trying to flirt with him/flirts with LWJ later on in the novel (in front, as well, of many of the Juniors). Notice how we are getting the trifecta again?:

Even after thinking it over multiple times, Jiang Cheng still couldn’t accept the fact [that Zidian had not worked]. He pointed at Wei Wuxian and scowled, “Who on Earth are you?”

Finally, a meddlesome bystander added a word to the conversation. He coughed, “Jiang-zongzhu, you might have not paid attention to these things and thus remained unaware. Mo Xuanyu was part the LanlingJin Sect’s… Ahem, he used to be a foreign disciple of the Jin Sect. But, because his spiritual powers were low and he didn’t work hard in his studies, and also had that… He harassed a peer and was thrown out of the LanlingJin Sect. I’ve also heard that he lost his marbles? In my opinion, he was probably bitter from being unable to cultivate using the correct path and ventured off onto the wrong one.”

Jiang Cheng asked, “That? What do you mean?”

“That… As in that…”

Someone couldn’t help but comment, “The cut-sleeve penchant!”

Jiang Cheng’s eyebrows twitched. His eyes which stared at Wei Wuxian seemed more disgusted than before. [Chapter 9]

The text also makes it clear that WWX is drawing upon more than just “Eww gay!” when he’s weaponizing MXY’s reputation to try to get away from JC and LWJ. He’s also thinking about JC’ inferiority complex and LWJ’s (perceived) serious nature.

“Then,” Jiang Cheng replied coldly, “why is Lan-er-gongzi going to such great lengths to protect an unimportant person such as him?”

Out of the blue, Wei Wuxian suppressed laughter could be heard.

“Jiang-zongzhu, umm, I’ll feel very troubled if you keep on bothering me like this.”

Jiang Cheng’s eyebrow twitched again. His instincts told him that this person would definitely not say anything pleasant next.

"Thank you for being so enthusiastic, but your thoughts are quite off. Even though I am attracted to men, I don’t like just any type of man, much less follow anyone who waves at me. I’m not interested in men like you.”

Wei Wuxian was purposely trying to disgust him. Jiang Cheng had always hated being defeated when compared with others, no matter how pointless the comparison was. If anyone said that he was not as good as someone else, he’d get angered and not think about anything else until he won against them. As expected, Jiang Cheng’s face darkened.

“Oh, really? Then, may I ask which type you’re interested in?

“Which type?” he replied, “Well, I am very much attracted to people like Hanguang-jun.”

Lan Wangji could not tolerate this sort of frivolous and foolish joke at all. If he felt disgusted, he would definitely draw a line between them and keep his distance. Disgusting two people at once—this was killing two birds with one stone!” [Chapter 9]

I won’t go through all the examples and moments in the novel (even in forced-voluntary self-isolation it is too much to ask out of me), but I hope my point was illustrated well enough with just these! Thank you again for your ask, it forced me to finally write it all down!

#mdzs meta #mdzs #anti-mxtx discourse #wwx #mxy #lwj #Anonymous #long post

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crossdressingdeath · 4 years ago

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I know you'll probably disagree with me, but i rlly hate the Cloud recessess ending. It's just....

Those elders killed wwx. The Lans were 100% ready to murder both at Qiongqi path but also at the siege. They see him as the guy who corrupted their precious jade. They all preach righteousness, but the whole madam Lan thing is iffy at best and i do not believe that everyone there fully believes the rules. Hell, i have a special bone to pick with the " do not gossip" rule, seeing as gossip had been the main info route for women in patriarchal societies.

I just don't think that after wwx killed Lans in the siege they'd be all that willing to forgive him and take him in w open arms. The juniors and kids love him, yes, but people who saw the war....

Not to mention the whole " do not speak to WWX " rule. I've seen ppl say it's a joke but it's On The Wall. It's supposed to be followed. Even if it was intended as a joke - which i don't believe - it's very cruel for someone w rejection and trust issues.

I also hate it from a very personal perspective. I see Wwx as ND, and, as an ND myself, all those rules terrify me. From the no running and the proper posture ones, i can pretty well imagine they forbid stimming. The Lan curfew would fuck anyone with insomnia and there's smth deeply ucked up abt the " do not grieve in excess". I get that they're supossed to be a paragon of the best things at all time, and that LJY is very UnLan like, but for someone w anxiety who CAN'T follow those rules, it would be a nightmare.

...Some points:

First, the Lan elders did not kill WWX, nor did they attack him unfairly. They weren’t looking at him as the man who corrupted LWJ, either, or at least that wasn’t their primary concern (I will never forgive CQL for suggesting they were or it was); they were looking at him as a traitor to the sects who was raising an army to destroy them. Remember, that is the information the Lans had. Every source they had except for LWJ (who the people he would have gone to would have known was biased and who presumably everyone knew had recently been in close contact with WWX where he could have been manipulated or enchanted in some way), sources which included multiple sect leaders (one of whom was WWX’s brother) and LXC’s dear friend, swore up and down that WWX was a major threat, and let’s face it, WWX didn’t do much to dissuade people from thinking that! Acting like the Lans were maliciously targeting WWX is doing them something of a disservice, I’d say. They acted based on the knowledge they had available; note how the Lans are the first to offer WWX their help once they’re given reason to believe he may not be a villain! And even aside from that, saying they killed WWX (and not JGS and JGY’s manipulation or JC’s army) feels a bit like scapegoating, honestly. Of the four sects, the Lans are quite possibly the least responsible for WWX’s death. If it would hurt him to live with or around anyone who held any responsibility for his death his only option would be to live as a hermit, which would be far worse for him. And yeah, the Lans aren’t perfectly righteous all the time and some morally dubious things have been done by Lan sect members; they’re human, after all! Some of them will only be as moral as their sect leader demands they be! That doesn’t mean the sect as a whole is bad, especially with LXC, LQR and LWJ in charge. Certainly I’d say they’re still better than the other sects, all things considered. One ambiguous situation that may or may not have involved some members of the previous generation doing some fucked up shit doesn’t mean WWX would for sure be mistreated!

As for gossip... there’s a difference between sharing information and gossiping. There’s no evidence that the Lan women are blocked from... y’know, freely communicating and sharing information between themselves. We have no reason to believe they are reliant on gossip. Also they presumably go out night hunting just like the men? Men and women are kept separate in the Cloud Recesses, but I get the sense that that’s more like... school stuff than anything else. The women aren’t exactly locked up, they can be cultivators! The society is still sexist, but that doesn’t mean they’re kept from going out and doing things. And I need to make this clear: there is a fair chance that the rule against gossip saved LWJ’s life, because it kept word of him defending WWX from the sects from spreading to people who would not be willing to let bygones be bygones. Gossip sucks! It hurts people! A lot of this story (and more to the point the suffering of the characters within the story) happens because of gossip! The Lans banning gossip is pretty clearly supposed to be a good thing, I’d say.

And yeah, maybe after WWX killed a bunch of their sect the Lans wouldn’t accept him with open arms as if nothing ever happened! And that’s fair! I can’t imagine where WWX could go where that wouldn’t be the case, unless he and LWJ chose to abandon the cultivation world forever. But you know what else the Lans won’t do? Try to execute him. Or from what we see in the extras even dwell on the past that much. No, the Lans aren’t going to immediately forgive WWX and bring him into the fold without a moment’s hesitation, but you know what? They accept his marriage to LWJ! They let him supervise the juniors on night hunts! They consider him part of their sect! Honestly, that is all WWX can really ask and far more than he’d get from any other sect. There are consequences for what WWX did, even though he wasn’t the villain or necessarily trying to hurt anyone, and frankly people not being entirely comfortable with his presence is very much reasonable.

The “do not speak to WWX” rule may not be a joke, but it’s also pretty clearly not a serious rule. No one takes it seriously. The juniors (the only people WWX really talks to anyway aside from LXC and LWJ) only pay it the minimum lip service of talking to him off the path. WWX himself sure as hell doesn’t care! He clearly finds it pretty damn funny. And I don’t think a guy who has never liked him once again proving he does not like him (in a way that is clearly temporary given how later LQR invites WWX to the Lan family banquet with... reasonable amounts of grace, thereby implicitly accepting him as LWJ’s husband and therefore his own family by marriage) counts as a rejection or a breach of WWX’s trust? Like, LQR has literally always hated WWX. He isn’t preventing WWX and LWJ from spending time together or shutting WWX out of the Cloud Recesses or even making a concentrated effort to keep people from talking to him; he’s venting his frustrations, but if he really intended to block WWX from taking part in life in the Cloud Recesses he would’ve done a hell of a lot more than just make a rule who no one WWX likes follows anyway. It’s a temper tantrum, that’s all, and clearly that’s what WWX takes it as. I mean, if nothing else you can’t ban people from talking to the sect heir’s spouse indefinitely. That’s just not sustainable.

As for the rules... banning people from running in the Cloud Recesses and demanding proper posture during lessons doesn’t suggest to me that they wouldn’t allow stimming? ‘No running’ at least is a common rule... most places. It’s distracting, and can be dangerous. And the rule about sitting properly doesn’t mean “Don’t move at all ever”; it means... well, “sit properly”. Don’t slouch or sprawl across the floor. I see no reason why that wouldn’t preclude means of stimming that wouldn’t be disruptive (and given this is in a classroom environment “not disruptive” is kind of important). I mean, those rules certainly don’t suggest that they’re any worse than other sects, and given this is the sect that has magic music for calming people’s minds if any sect would give allowances for neurodivergence it would be this one. Also I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a song to put people to sleep, or medication that can help; this is a world with magic, after all, and if there’s a song that can put spirits to rest there are probably songs for human medicine and care. And of course there’s an element of conflicting needs; maybe the rules would screw you over, but frankly firmly enforced rules keeping people from running around or sprawling out of their seats would’ve been a godsend for me in school, given how much trouble I had focusing with people making noise around me. At the end of the day, is it guaranteed that the Lans would make allowances for people with needs that conflict with the Lan rules? No. But I’d argue it’s more likely that they would than any other sect. This is ahistorical fantasy ancient China, too; you can only expect so much in the mental health department. Still, a sect that literally invented magic music for calming the mind actually seems like the best choice for people with anxiety and such. There’s a reason why there are multiple fics that essentially set the Lans up as mental health experts in the setting!

Basically, a lot of your arguments seem to be issues that WWX would have in any sect. Unless he wanted to give up on the support of a sect altogether, they’re all things that he would have to work through or come to terms with. And of course... the most important point is that WWX is happy in the Lan sect. The extras make that clear. He has a home, duties that he enjoys performing, the love of his family and the support of his sect. He’s happy. I just... I do not understand why people keep feeling the need to try to make it angsty when the novel makes it clear that he genuinely enjoys his life in Gusu, and more than that that if he ever decided he didn’t enjoy it he could leave at any time. You have to remember that: if WWX wanted to leave... he would. He and LWJ would just go, and only come back occasionally so that LWJ could visit his home. Hell, LWJ would insist on leaving for WWX’s sake. So like... the Lan sect wouldn’t suit everyone, but WWX is quite content there and doesn’t want to leave. He’s happy and free to come and go as he wishes; there really isn’t anything to be concerned about there.

#mdzs #wei wuxian #anon #asks

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llycaons · 7 months ago

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this post editor is driving me up a fucking wall 😭 here's the last bit of the jc section and then some more (2/2)

flashback wwx wasn't really able to push back against jc given their respective positions in the sect (wwx feeling like an indebted servant who needed to serve the jiangs), but his refusal to take jc's abuse postres is a really significant part of his journey to a happy and healthy life. he still feels guilty about jyl and jzx, but he sets boundaries, he leaves if it's getting to be too much, and he doesn't hesitate to criticize jc. they COULD be close postres, but it would take a lot of work, especially on jc's part given how frequently jc has used his knowledge of wwx (his guilt/grief over jyl, his fear of dogs) to harass and torment him. I just want better for him!! it makes me so upset that authors write a relationship that is objectively going BACK to what was TERRIBLE and acting like it's a happy ending. like wtf!! I thought we moved past this!! wwx is very mature postres and jc simply is not and that's going to inform their dynamic…

behavior: wwx has a mischievous and silly side! he can be juvenile and talkative, and he may flirt to accomplish his goals. he laughs even in serious situations from stress or nerves or to cope, he does joke about his own feelings to avoid confronting them or allowing people to see too deeply into his heart, but but the way fics flanderize him into a nonstop 'gremlin' chatterbox who giggles and flirts all the time drives me up a wall. he has very serious moments of introspection and grief, especially postcanon, and unless it's a very light-hearted story, I think it's important to balance his goofy side with the side that desperately misses or yearns or grieves.but he IS funny and witty too. he quotes literature and poems all the time! most fics don't go as far as to incorporate that, but I think it's important to remember that he is very intelligent, he's very well-read, he's a brilliant academic and inventor, and his mind made connections and crafted theories that nobody in his setting could ever possibly hope to match those tend to be the big ones! some smaller things

he's a little manipulative of his loved ones, depending on the situation

flashback arc he was the vengeful firebrand but postres I just think he's tired. he's actually really chill and forgiving for what they all did to him. he doesn't STOP caring about justice - see yi city - but he's less furious and desperate and frantic, having backup and no longer being in such an impossible position

he liked to roughhouse as a teenager but probably less so as an adult

he understands social cues perfectly well and is extremely intuitive and charismatic. he will do as he's told to prevent humiliation on his sect or to avoid punishment from his abusive authority figures but he doesn't always follow them if he feels strongly enough he shouldn't AND myu isn't there

he obviously adores jyl and is very protective of her, but they're also some of the sillier characters in the show. they goof off together in like a very gentle way. and he acts like a baby with her sometimes because that's the only way he can ask for comfort (from anyone) without being too vulnerable

I don't think wwx would realistically have a relationship with lwj (or anyone) post-BM because anyone who feels his pulse or gets too close could figure out he doesn't have a core

he's a survivalist! he's used to and often prefers to be self-reliant because historically that's the only person he COULD rely on so he only trusts himself, but once lwj starts proving himself he's happy enough to get shelter and food and money lol. I think this transition is uncomfortable for him at times but deep down he does crave safety and a home and security and domesticity, esp postres,

I think postres he's rather nostalgic for CR. despite the rules, he finds it beautiful and his memories there are relatively good. he looked so wistful walking down the paths after waking up in 33/34 (?)

he knows gay people exist and he knows what gay sex is and I feel pretty confident he knows he's into men since flashback arc easily. personally I read him as bi but those categories don't rly exist in the setting so in canonverse there's no wrong sexuality for him to be as long as he's into men

he was very community-focused before the attack on LP! he loved chatting with the vendors and he clearly knew a lot of them personally

he thinks highly of wq but doesn't rly talk about her postres. wen ning he's fond of but in a slightly distant way? authors actually get this one right usually. wen ning gets pushed to the background both in wwx's mind and the narrative. has been there since the BEGINNING but wwx will often forget him or brush him aside in favor of thinking about lwj 😭 he also used him kind of casually as a servant in flashback arc but postres I think he's trying to remind wen ning they're equals.

he actually does have good calligraphy and he's got the lan sect rules memorized! he's also a skilled artist

he may not be a great cook, but he in the flashback he was out hunting birds barehanded for food so he could presumably make it into something edible

kind of a bad teacher? he's good at what he does but he kind of insults the kids and he tells teenagers to get into fights lol. he's not afraid to yell at them. perhaps ironically, he also complains when nobody respects or fears him as the yllz, though he's unhappy when he hears JL and the kids (and jc) hate him :(

in canon he's a little misogynistic calling jin ling 'young mistress' as an insult and all but if it's a modern AU I like to think his strong sense of justice would direct him towards more umm appropriate perspectives

if you're still reading, thank you!! all mistakes are due to the fact that I haven't watched the show in a while, but I'm pretty confident in these readings. just remember he's an extremely nuanced character so you could actually make a lot work for him as long as you link it to something he does in canon and make sure the context all makes sense

hello!! as someone who loves cql wwx, i really love how you defend wwx’s canon characterizarion vs his fanon one. it’s all so good to read like that’s our boy!! so i wanted to ask as someone who wants to write fic from wwx’s pov, do you have any tips or advice? thank you! 💕

hello, anon! thank you! I'm not a writer, but I'm certainly happy to list some things that bother me in fics from a characterization standpoint (1/2)

sense of self-worth: in canon, flashback arc wwx thinks he's hot shit. he is slightly less obnoxious about it postres, but still has a lot of confidence and knows he's an incredibly skilled (and handsome) cultivator. I see a lot of fics where wwx has a super low sense of self-worth - he verbally talks about how he doesn't deserve another chance, how lwj is better than him, how he deserves punishment, etc. and it ends up with lwj needing to constantly reassure him that he's 'good enough' when in reality that's not their dynamic. wwx doesn't want platitudes, he wants tangible emotional and mental support from someone who believes him and has his back and will commit to him even though his reputation is in tatters. he does make enormous sacrifices, but it's less that he doesn't think he's worth anything and more that he considers his moral or familial obligations to be of higher importance. and he does have regrets but postres he truly doesn't want to suffer any more (dying was punishment enough!), and he certainly doesn't think he deserves more. he doesn't like to dwell on the past since it's so painful and he's rather move on but in theory this should wreak havoc on his mental health since he never actually deals with it? this is something canon doesn't explore as much as I'd want it to but I love reading about him coping with the trauma of his entire life after decades of ignoring it.

...and general emotional state wrt lwj: postres his behavior and dynamic with lwj is a little confusing, so honestly I kind of go with whatever the author's interpretation is. personally I see him in the flashback having a big crush, picking up a similar vibe from lwj after a few mishaps and being excited about it, then BAM the war happens, innocence is lost, and he realizes 1. he can't hope to live as a cultivator alongside lwj, ever and 2. lwj will probably reject him for using DC (which...he does), so he takes control and decides to be the one who cuts off that relationship before lwj can, bc having control over the terrible things that happen in his life is that important to him. but ofc they still stay close and I think by BM it's more like "we know how we feel but neither of us can do anything besides what we're doing' and then wwx loses it a bit and can't focus on anything besides the wens and his sister etc. and THEN postres his reluctance to involve himself with lwj is more due to being unsure about how lwj 16 yrs in the future would treat him, his habitual self-reliance and slight mistrust, and a desire to keep lwj safe and his reputation intact. wwx knows that lwj didn't do everything he could have back then, so he's still a little wary until lwj proves himself, AND he's worried lwj will be ruined bc of being associated with the yllz, famously hated mass murderer/heretic

dynamic with jc: hoo boy. I have seen so many authors screw this one up because they're biased towards jc never having done anything wrong, or the yunmeng sibling bond being sacred and unbreakable and or something. people love to write jc being verbally aggressive and even physically abusive to wwx, and wwx being happy because 'it means he cares' or some shit. drives me up a wall. jc is deeply insecure, chronically contemptuous, violently lashes out when angry, and has steeped in bitterness to cope with grief for decades. he has THE most rancid vibes and nobody likes him and wwx is very rightfully sick of his shit, especially postres. and their story is such a crucial example of how the people we're close to can badly hurt us, and the fact that they love us doesn't mean they're not hurting us or that it's okay. the drama softened jc a bit, but canonically to the novel AND the drama, jc and wwx have always had a rocky relationship. recall jc choking him nearly to unconsciousness after the LP attack, for one. the cracks started showing during the wen indoctrination camp, in which wwx wanted to help lwj, his personal friend and another high-ranking sect heir, during the hunt, potentially saving his life, and jc told him repeatedly to leave him behind since he's not family. and jc hunkers down and tries to protect his people alone, while wwx is fundamentally incapable of abandoning people who he could help. this ideological split between them continued through his (mutually agreed-upon) defection from the jiang sect, and came to a head during nightless city. you may recall that jc told wwx to go to hell while wwx was actively in the middle of committing suicide. based on this, the fact that jc then raised jin ling to hate DCers and wwx specifically, the fact that jc tried to immediately kill wwx when he came back, and the fact that he then tortured wwx psychologically using insider knowledge of his fear of dogs, indicates pretty clearly to me that this man is um. not really a safe person for wwx to be around mentally, emotionally, or physically. and wwx himself knows this! he stands up for himself when being tortured, he accuses jc of never changing, he compares jin ling unfavorably to jc, and he complains about jc's juvenile and cruel behavior frequently there are so many jc defenders in this fandom that interpret his behavior and actions as love or trust or simple ignorance, but the fact is that there is a long-established and extremely serious pattern of jc hurting wwx to vent his own anger, frustration, or pain, whether wwx had anything to do with it or not. and ppl talk about him like he's a defenseless victim even when he's a nearly forty-year old sect leader 🤡. not that he hasn't had his own tragedies or his own reasons for acting as he did, and I do see him as a very tragic figure, but the facts are that he's terrible to wwx and wwx knows that, and responds to it. wwx doesn't hate jc but he doesn't want to be hurt by him anymore and after the age of like 15 he would never respond positively to jc treating him like shit. if he was wary around lwj, you can imagine how nervous he is around jc. please, PLEASE if you're writing wwx, don't let this all be forgotten. I do think there's a way for jc and wwx to become close again, and I do think wwx has forgiven jc if not forgotten the hurt he's caused him, but a HUGE part of wwx's journey is finding and staying with someone he loves who's safe, who cares about him and will prioritize him and won't hurt him.

part two coming up!

#mutuals as always feel free to jump in if I've forgotten something #asks #Anonymous

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zhansww · 4 years ago

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Hi. Thank you so much for replying. You gave me so much good information. I respect that you treat XZ and WY like people and not as fictional characters as I see so many people doing. I'm still reluctant to join this side of the fandom because from what I've seen so far, it's a mess. Tell me if I got this right: xfx= solo XZ fans who think WY and his team sabotaged XZ's career so he could be the top actor also hate cp fans because they support both XZ/WY. mtjj= solo WY fans.

Acknowledge that WY could be in love with XZ but think XZ doesn't care about him, hope WY moves on. They don't seem to like cp fans for not ruining XZ/WY's friendship? bjyx=cp fans. Some of them are supporters and, some of them are fetishizers. Want the solo fandoms to combine??? ( I still don't know what V/JK is) But is that the state of things?? Way more complicated than the CQL/MDZS fandom. I am enjoying your blog, your pinned post is the best introduction to the fandom imo. Are there any other analysis type blogs like yours that you could rec? Thank you. ( Sorry for the long ask)

oh my... smh your reluctance to join this part of the fandom makes you so endearing to me. If I wasn't as socially inept as I am, I'd ask you to be friends 🥺 Gonna put this all under a cut~

Let me start with the easiest thing to answer. V and Jk are two members from BTS whose relationship is shockingly real to me. I avoided writing their names or their cp name out cuz I didn't want my pinned post to show up in those searches. Unlike with ggdd, I never got the impression they'd be okay with speculations about them, though. So I don't ever feel the need to analyze or discuss about them. I just quietly believe in and support them.

You got xfx and mtjj right. Xfx is the official fan name for XZ's solo fans. Mtjj is not an official fan name, though, i.e. Yibo or his company never made it official, as far as I know. It stands for motojiejie which means motorcycle sisters, there's also mtgg = motorcycle brothers but you'll mostly see mtjj. Bxg is what ggdd's cp fans are called. It stands for BoXiaoGirls/Guys. It can also stand for baixiangguo which means "passion fruit". And there's a third meaning which I don't know but has something to do with turtles and which is why you're likely to see bxg refer to themselves as turtles. Bjyx is ggdd's main, fanmade cp name. It was coined back in April 2018, after XZ and WYB only just got confirmed as the actors who get to play WWX and LWJ. One of the rules in the bjyx supertopic on weibo is that you can't switch their "roles". And those were solely based on wang/xian but I suppose once fans realized that ggdd is actually real and their dynamic is vastly different from wang/xian, they came up with different cp names for different dynamics. There's also zsww and lsfy. (Sidenote; if I remember correctly, bjyx means “to make your special someone smile”. Zsww means “lord over a district/castle” and lsfy means “chain reaction”) And as far as I know, zsww fans are called little bandits and lsfy fans are called baby lotus. I apologize if me explaining this makes you feel weird in any way (cuz this fandom separation is dumb af) - I just wanna give you any info I have cuz you might come across some of this, at least. Anyway, the most common abbreviations you'll see; bxg = ggdd cp fans and bjyx = ggdd's cp name. There's also bjyxszd 博君一肖是真的 which means "bjyx is real" or bjyxszd 并肩于学山之巅 which means "side by side atop the snowy summit" and is a phrase that bxg use to hide the first phrase in plain sight, so to say.

I don't know what it's called but there's actually also a supertopic on weibo for XZ and WYB solo fans who believe that ggdd is real but are still only solo fans. So truthfully, you can't really generalize that. Some solo fans do believe in ggdd and are supportive but not necessarily openly. I (like to) think most solo fans are just dedicated to their idol and don't care about anything or anyone else and that's it. The rest, though... yeah, those are the obnoxious ones. Who made up ridiculous conspiracy theories about how Yibo and his company are responsible for what happened last February to gg. Or who make up theories about how XZ only got as successful as he is because he copied Yibo. They really want to believe that ggdd aren’t special to each other or that they even hate one another. So they come up with the dumbest bs to e.g. vilify XZ. Like, about a year ago, mtjj got mad at gg cuz they thought he, as dd's boyfriend, must have forced dd to sell one of his motorcycles. When Yibo uses kadian, they think he just does it to bait cp fans. But when XZ uses kadian, he's being the worst, most careless boyfriend and how tf could he put Yibo in danger like that. And yes, I've seen the same hateful mtjj spout such contradictory nonsense. It can be quite hilarious, ngl. I only follow decent solo stans so I truthfully don't know what the newest sh-t is that antis/solos have come up with.

When it comes to bxg... yes, there are a lot of supporters but also way too many who seem to be unable to separate ggdd from novel!wang/xian. They so badly want only bjyx - that dynamic - to be real that they constantly feel the need to "change reality" to make it happen by e.g. misgendering gg, drawing him smaller than dd and/or more feminine, making assumptions about him and his character that are simply untrue but fit their preferred dynamic so they keep spreading those assumptions. They way they view XZ is wrong and beyond disrespectful and yet, they call themselves fans. I genuinely hope you'll never even have to see any thing of the sort. I don't actually know anything about bxg, wanting to combine the solo fandoms xD I guess, ideally that would be desirable but I wonder if that's even possible.

Thank you so much for liking my pinned post... That and a lot of the posts that I linked in it are what I keep hoping may make more people believe in and support ggdd and it makes me so so glad that it could be of use to you! About recs, I could recommend you some twt accounts or on here, gif makers and fanartists that I like and follow but I don't follow any ggdd blogs that make a lot of text posts. And just to be clear, I don't make many text posts myself either. I stay away from rumors (unless they become more than that) and from stalker info and from all the reaching, too. You might find it interesting, I don't know, but me, I see no point, mulling over any and every minute connection between ggdd that may or may not even be real. It gets too invasive or ridiculous imo. I actually also stay away from all that recent behind the scenes footage of ggdd because I highly disapprove of the way it was acquired. I only comment on things about them that I consider reasonable and possibly noteworthy and that preferably come from the men themselves. And occasionally, I gush about how cute and perfect they are together. Sorry I can't be more helpful with this last question >.<

#ask #halobey

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peekbackstage · 4 years ago

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How much of a say the idols/actors might have over projects that they will do? I assume the management has a lot of control in most cases, but I wonder how much they might work together with the idols. E.g. can the idol themselves being forth a project that they are interested and pursue it if they get the management approval? I'm thinking this more with dd, as I've seen rumors of how CQL didn't seem like a logical next step for him but he went after it because he wanted it. I wonder this beyond CQL too, as some of the things he has done seem right up his alley, things that seem like what he'd actually like doing.

Disclaimer: This answer is informed by my experience working in the music industry. Industry standards and practices may vary.

I never worked in film/tv so I can’t comment on how much control actors have over projects. But, in general, with idols, it largely depends on how much power they have within their management company.

For some idols, the amount of power and control they have over their careers is directly in proportion with how successful they are and how much money they make their companies. Now, bear in mind: this isn’t always the case, as some idol companies really don’t give idols very much control at all, regardless of how successful they become - which is why there have been so many lawsuits.

The following is speculation.

It is entirely possible that both XZ and WYB have some degree of control over both of their respective careers at this time. XZ has his own studio, which means he can more or less make his own decisions in regards to what companies he works with, what projects he takes on, etc. WYB is currently YH’s breadwinner and his contract is soon coming to an end with them. If YH wants a smidgen of chance of maybe being able to get him to renew, they have to make WYB happy, because artists who are not happy with their companies generally leave to greener pastures and better contract terms.

Based on the above, it is very likely that WYB actually has more control over his career now than he ever did before, because he can leverage the power of his career against the imminent threat of profit loss (should he choose not to renew.)

Since WYB wasn’t a huge mega star like he is now before CQL, it is actually unlikely that he had a ton of power over his projects at that point in time. However, because he did have a fairly stable career and fanbase and had already been cast in a few projects, YH may have taken into consideration any requests he may have made or projects he may have expressed some interest in - which is to say he may have had some influence.

The following is not speculation:

I’m not sure why there is this misconception that WYB had to fight for the role and auditioned three times - that is factually incorrect. It is apparent from a video interview with Yang Xia (CQL’s producer) that she actually passed over WYB’s photo twice, based on image alone, when looking at photographs of potential actors. But, she stated very clearly in the interview that she thought it was very important to actually meet actors in person before casting, and therefore held in-person auditions/screen tests. (Which means that while she passed on his photo, she hadn’t made an actual decision, because she herself stated she had to meet any potential actors before casting.)

In fact, the way she cast XZ as WWX was by meeting him in person and talking to him about his understanding of WWX. She was impressed with the fact that XZ had a very deep understanding of the character, based on the script, and felt he was best suited for the role after meeting him.

WYB did have to fly in for the audition, but the moment that he walked into the room, she made her mind up to cast him as LWJ. So he only ever auditioned one time, and won the role by simply walking into the room, haha.

(Edit: I’m not saying WYB didn’t have to take risks or move his schedule around to try to get the role, or that he didn’t go out of his way to audition. I had read in a few places that he auditioned three times for the role, and that simply isn’t the case - he got it the first time cuz he was literally perfect for the role.)

#idols #wang yibo #xiao zhan #artist management #the untamed #cql #ask #anonymous #peek answers

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xiyao-feels · 4 years ago

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Nie//yao (MDZS)

So NMJ/JGY is actually getting two versions, because my read on them is wildly different for MDZS vs CQL.

In MDZS I...don't ship it? I mean, there just doesn't seem to be to be anything there at all of a romantic or sexual nature. It's not that they don't care about each other, they clearly do, but it's in a way that is...NMJ as substitute father, JGY as substitute brother, and heavily, heavily inflected by their (current and then former) relationship as superior and subordinate.

Putting this behind a cut because a) it's me explaining at breath length with quotes why I don't think they have a romantic or sexual relationship and I don't want people to have to see that unless they want and b) accordingly it is REALLY LONG and I also don't want to clutter people's dashes, so.

Actually backing up a step, I don't see MDZS NMJ as being attracted to anyone, that's not really specific to JGY. I tend to read him as aspec, tbh. So theoretically he could have romantic feelings about JGY without being attracted to him—I think he may have some quasi-romantic feelings for LXC, though I don't think he conceptualizes it that way—but... honestly, it's not really clear to me that he even likes JGY as a person.

I'm not saying he doesn't like JGY! He clearly does, at least before MY tricks him and flees. But it doesn't seem to have anything to do with MY's personality, as opposed to like—MY being really competent and conducting himself well.

Some quotes about what exactly NMJ values about JGY:

'Nie MingJue interrupted him, “I promoted you not because I wanted you to give back anything out of gratitude. I simply thought that you should stay in this position, since you are capable enough and your conduct is to my liking. If you really want to pay me back, just kill a few more of those Wen-dogs on the battlefield!”'

'After [Meng Yao] left [for Langya], Nie MingJue switched to another deputy. Wei WuXian, however, felt that the new one was always a few beats slower. Meng Yao was an unusually clever talent. He could understand what wasn’t said, and perform to the best with the simplest orders. He was efficient and never slacked. Anyone used to him wouldn’t be able to refrain from comparing him with others.'

'Nie MingJue was never close to people. He rarely opened up to anyone. Though he finally managed to obtain a competent, trustworthy subordinate, whose character and capabilities he approved, he found that the subordinate’s true colors were nothing like what he had thought they were. It was only natural that his reaction was so extreme.'

'Wei WuXian had once found it strange as well. Ever since Meng Yao betrayed the QingheNie Sect, the relationship between Nie MingJue and him hadn’t been the same as before. Then why did they later become sworn brothers? From his observations, aside from how Lan XiChen brought it up, having always hoped that the two would reconcile, the most important factor was probably the gratitude of saving his life and writing the letters. To be precise, in his past battles, he had more-or-less depended on the information that Meng Yao sent over through Lan XiChen. He still thought that Jin GuangYao was a talented person whom one would rarely come upon, and intended on leading him back onto the right path. However, Jin GuangYao wasn’t his subordinate anymore. Only after they became sworn brothers would he have the status and the position to urge Jin GuangYao, like how he disciplined his younger brother, Nie HuaiSang.'

Jin GuangYao spoke with dejection, “But, Brother, didn’t you hear what he said in the oath? Every sentence meant something more. ‘Face a thousand accusing fingers, be torn from limb to limb’—this was clearly a warning for me. I… I’ve never heard of such an oath before.”

Lan XiChen replied in a gentle voice, “He said ‘if one were to think otherwise’. Do you think otherwise? If not, then why should you worry over it so much?"

Jin GuangYao, “I don’t, but Brother has already decided that I do, so what can I do?”

Lan XiChen, “He has always cherished your talent, hoping that you would choose the right path.”

You might notice a recurring theme here: there's a lot of focus JGY's competence and conduct. But anything about who JGY is as a person? Not so much.

They clearly had a good superior/subordinate relationship going on, albeit one in which NMJ was missing a lot of context (see just behave well and show people up, plus the you're missing a solid foundation thing). But it does seem to be basically professional. WWX describes them as conversing "peaceably, even impressively" in contrast to "his future self, always being scolded by Nie MingJue" and "those jokes of how 'LianFang-Zun fled whenever he heard that ChiFeng-Zun arrived,'" and.... that's kind of it. The closest we get to them as friends is them talking together with LXC after NMJ tells MY he will give him a letter of recommendation and send him to his father; as WWX describes it, "The three chatted back and forth, at times serious, yet at times light. The conversation was much more relaxed than when they had been in the living room. Listening to their chatter, Wei WuXian often wanted to get a word in as well, yet he was unable to do so."

That's definitely not nothing! But it's also the most we ever get, only shows up the once, and is explicitly contrasted with their conversation from earlier. Moreover, I'm pretty sure LXC's presence is a necessary part of things; NMJ tends to respond differently to LXC than to other people (even just earlier in this chapter, we're told that while "Nie MingJue had never been one for humour," "in front of Lan XiChen his expression eased"), and WWX explicitly notes LXC's conversation skills in the context of this conversation: "At this point in time, their relationship really isn't bad. Zewu-Jun is actually quite good at holding conversations, so why is Lan Zhan so bad at it?"

In addition, I'd say that looking at the early part of that conversation is quite telling; while LXC and MY are sitting together as equals, MY stand up at once the moment NMJ interrupts, and doesn't sit even after NMJ tells him to do so (I think he probably does take a seat at some point, but the narrative doesn't actually tell us when). Moreover, MY seems to be worried that NMJ will be offended by a possible lack of gratitude on MY's part ("Sect Leader Nie, if you heard everything, then you should've also heard me say that..."), and the only objection he expresses to leaving is precisely that he owes NMJ a debt of gratitude, not anything to do with, like, missing him. To me all the evidence suggests that while they had a close relationship, it was not a /personal/ relationship, but fundamentally one of superior and subordinate.

(For a close read of the scene where NMJ, LXC and MY are talking together, I highly recommend @confusion-and-more's post here)

Moving on, let's look at after JGY becomes JGY. They don't seem to particularly spend time together with each other, certainly not for the sake of it. There's a brief moment at the Flower Banquet where NMJ asks JGY why he's wasting his time with XY (who has not at this point in time committed his crime, he just has a reputation), but after JGY makes his excuse and scurries away, NMJ turns away and doesn't seem to seek him out or even pay him any particular attention for the rest of the scene; he only shows up once more, and that's following WWX. (And although JGY-as-replacement-NHS would be a post all on its own, I do think it's interesting to note that the exchange about XY is immediately followed by LXC and LWJ coming over, described in a way that highlights both their impressiveness and their status at brothers—their Twin Jade-ness, one might say.) During the guqin scene, NMJ only speaks once, and it's to address LXC—to protest the inappropriateness of LXC leaking exclusive Lan techniques. When JGY shows up to play the guqin for him the first time, NMJ asks JGY "what did you come here for," which suggests that NMJ is not generally expecting JGY to come by without a specific, concrete reason. The closest they ever seem to get after JGY becomes JGY is during these guqin-playing sessions, and as WWX describes it, "when playing the guqin, the way that the two conversed and got along even had a hint of the peace they had before they fell out"—which is certainly better than there being no peace at all, but which I think suggests there's still at least some tension, given that it's only a "hint."

Now, NMJ certainly cares about JGY, both in the sense of desiring his well-being, at first, and absolutely in the sense of being emotionally invested in him—even after his death, as a fierce corpse his only desire is to kill Jin Guangyao. But while they had a close superior-subordinate relationship—certainly NMJ seems to have felt close to MY—at no point was it a close personal relationship, and I don't think that NMJ even liked JGY (or MY, I'm using the name expansively) as a person, let alone was in love with him.

But mostly so far I've been focusing in NMJ's feelings. What about JGY? Is /he/ in love with NMJ?

Once again, I just don't read him that way. This isn't to say he didn't care for NMJ—he absolutely did! He goes to quite significant lengths to save his life from WRH in the Sun Palace, including quite a lot of risk to MY himself—I analyze that in a lot more depth in the first part of my post here, if you're interested, though I will also note now that he specifically sent for LXC to help NMJ. (You'll have to scroll down some; I'm responding to someone else's post.) Afterwards, he kneels to NMJ and apologizes, I think sincerely, for hurting him and for invoking his pain about his father's death. He certainly conceives of himself as owing a debt of gratitude to NMJ for recognizing him, and he's so overcome when NMJ offers to send him to his father with a letter of recommendation, saying that he didn't promote MY so that MY would owe him, that he quite remarkably can't even find words. NMJ meant a lot to him, and so did NMJ's not defining him in terms of his birth—until he did, of course, at the stairs kick incident. But as far as I can tell, there's nothing to suggest he has /romantic feelings/ for NMJ, and frankly—how can I put this—it does not at all surprise me that JGY isn't in love with someone with a violent temper who is noted at least twice to react to people explaining themselves when he is angry with even more anger, and that's even without the thing where he nearly killed JGY on multiple occasions and called him the son of a prostitute.

No, I think JGY's emotional journey with NMJ goes through three stages: first, he's deeply grateful to him and respects him a great deal, although he's also aware of NMJ's lack of awareness of certain social realities (see: the teacup scene, NMJ yelling at the other Nie cultivators about their treatment of MY and telling MY not to worry as long as his conduct is upright); second, after Sun Palace, still gratitude and respect but also a mounting frustration with his lack of awareness of the implications of JGY's social position and his hypocrisy re: acceptable violence; finally, after the stairs kick when NMJ kicks him down the stairs, almost kills him, and tells him what else can be expected from the son of a prostitute, he is completely done with NMJ, but is still very much scared of him. The gratitude, I've discussed; the frustration, I think is fairly obvious in the speech he gives back to NMJ at the stairs. But I think the fear is often undervalued, so I'm going to pull a bunch of quotes again:

Meng Yao shrunk immediately after his previous outburst. Watching Baxia slash toward him, he sprinted off at once, scared lifeless. Of the two, one striked with madness and the other fled with madness. Both staggered, still soaked in blood. In such amusing circumstances, as Wei WuXian chopped at the future Chief Cultivator, in his heart he split his sides laughing. He thought that if not for how Nie MingJue was under heavy injuries and lacked spiritual power, Meng Yao would probably have been dead already.

Baxia’s strikes were so menacing that Shuoyue had to unsheath. Lan XiChen stopped him, half to support his figure and half to block his attacks, “MingJue-xiong, calm down! Why bother?”

Nie MingJue, “Why don’t you ask what he did?!”

Lan XiChen turned around to look at Meng Yao, his face was full of terror. He stammered as if he didn’t dare speak.

Nie MingJue remained silent, while Baxia and Shuoyue continued. Meng Yao took a glimpse at the glares from the clashes of the saber and the sword, his gaze full of fear. After a while, however, he still took a step forward. He kneeled to Nie MingJue.

A moment later, Nie MingJue still raised his saber. Lan XiChen, “MingJue-xiong!”

Meng Yao shut his eyes. Lan XiChen also tightened his grip on Shuoyue, “Please excuse…”

Before he could finish his sentence, the silver light of the blade slashed down violently, onto a boulder on the side.

Meng Yao flinched from the thunder of the boulder splitting apart. Looking over, he saw that it had been sliced into two halves, from the top to the bottom.

Jin GuangYao nodded. Xue Yang had been infamous ever since he was young. Wei WuXian clearly felt Nie MingJue’s brows knit even tighter. He spoke, “Why are you wasting your time with such a person?”

Jin GuangYao, “The LanlingJin Sect recruited him.”

He didn’t dare to protest any further. Excuse being that he needed to care for the guests, he scurried to the other side.

[part of his speech to NMJ at the stairs] You think that I should be afraid of nothing? Well I'm afraid of everything, even other people!

Within the temple, three people called Nie MingJue’s corpse ‘Brother’ but the three tones were drastically different. Jin GuangYao’s face was full of a drowning fear. His entire body began to shiver. No matter dead or alive, the person Jin GuangYao was most scared of was none but this sworn brother of his whose temper tolerated no evil. As his body shivered, his hands shivered as well, and the bloody guqin string he clutched tightly in his hand also began to shiver.

Clenching his teeth, Jin GuangYao struck a few acupoints of his arm. Amidst the dizziness that came from a loss of blood, he suddenly saw Nie MingJue walk a step towards him, his eyes locked on him. He was immediately half-dead with fear.

Collapsed beside Lan XiChen, Jin GuangYao saw this scene as well. Whether because the bleeding and the pain intensified at his arm and stomach or from some other reason, the glisten of tears could be seen in his eyes. But before he had a chance to catch his breath or lick his wounds, Nie MingJue turned around after he pulled his fist back and stared hungrily in his direction.

The harsh, stern expression on his rigid face held a sense of judgement that was no different from before he died. Even his tears had been scared away as Jin GuangYao turned to Lan XiChen for help, his voice trembling, “Brother…”

I think the stuff with, you know, handling NMJ's fierce corpse and hanging onto his head is often viewed as evidence of JGY's continued emotional investment in NMJ, but... I don't really think so? First of all, NMJ's fierce corpse is completely obsessed with killing JGY. I'll spare you another round of quotes on that because this is already ridiculously long and because it's not at all subtle—it's all over the temple chapters, take a look! And second of all—well, there's ways of getting information from a corpse. In this case, NMJ's resentful energy is so strong that without the protection of his body, papernan WWX is actually sucked into NMJ's memories against his will! Sure, maybe no one would risk it, and maybe no one who risked it would survive, but especially given that NMJ's fierce corpse is completely obsessed with killing JGY, that's a heck of a risk to take. And look at the description of the protections around NMJ's head:

Suddenly, Wei WuXian noticed that one of the shelves were blocked by a curtain. The curtain was covered in sinister, blood-red runes. It was a talisman of forbiddance, one of extreme power.

Jin GuangYao walked over and lifted the curtain.

For a split second, Wei WuXian thought that he had been exposed. After the faint firelight made its way through the curtain, he found that he was enveloped in a shadow. A circular object just happened to be in front of him.

Jin GuangYao stood still, as though he was staring into the eyes of whatever was inside this shelf.

After a moment, he spoke, “Were you the one looking at me?"

Of course, there couldn’t be any response. He was silent for a while, then let down the curtain.

Wei WuXian quietly attached himself to the object. Cold and hard, it seemed to be a helmet. He then turned to the front. As he had expected, he saw a pallid face. The one who sealed the head wanted it to see nothing, hear nothing, speak nothing, and so incantations had been crowded onto the waxen skin. The eyes, the ears, and the mouth were all sealed tightly shut.

There's containment, it's suppressed to all hell and back, and JGY quite justifiably expects it to be murderously obsessed with him, but to me it doesn't suggest a reciprocal obsession—just more fear.

I'll also note that as a strategy for containing the information about his own involvement it's a very successful operation! It failed in the end /eventually/, but the failure needed:

someone who could successfully break into his private treasure room and escape without being caught

who could also perform Empathy or a similar tecnnique on NMJ's head and survive it

who could successfully recreate from memory the altered Empathy song

whom LXC would be willing to listen to

That's a heck of a tall order!

As to being done with NMJ after the stairs, well, listen to what he says to LXC:

[...]

Jin GuangYao, “It’s not that I don’t know what’s right and what’s wrong, but that sometimes I really can’t help. Nowadays, I have it bad no matter which side I’m on. I have to ensure that I’m on everyone’s good sides. I wouldn’t care if it were someone else, but have I mistreated our eldest brother in any way? Brother, you heard as well. What did he call me?”

[...]

Jin GuangYao was almost sobbing, “If he could say such a thing when he was angry, then just how does he think of me on a daily basis? Is it that because I couldn’t choose my background, because my mother couldn’t choose her fate, I’ll have to be humiliated by others throughout my whole life? If so, then how is Brother different from the people who look down on me? No matter what I do, in the end, just a sentence and I’m ‘the son of a prostitute’.”

And then of course there's what he says to LXC, in his speech to him at the end: "You, on the other hand, ZeWu-Jun, Sect Leader Lan, are as intolerant of me as Nie MingJue—you refuse to spare me even a single breath of life!"

So—wow, this got very long—I don't ship them, and although I think they have very much mattered emotionally to each other, I don't really see them as ever having been in love with or attracted to each other.

A couple of end notes:

In MDZS, NMJ isn't the first (non-MS) person who recognizes MY's worth, although he is the first person to promote him; by the time NMJ promotes MY MY has already met, rescued, and exchanged intimate confidences with LXC, who respects him greatly and thinks he is highly talented (see again the conversation in Hejian which NMJ overhears/eavedrops on).

I've seen people talk about them not understanding each other, but while NMJ certainly doesn't understand JGY, it's not at all obvious that the reverse is true; he generally seems to understand him pretty well. I think he has two surprises overall: first, that he wasn't expecting NMJ to say he didn't promote MY so MY would owe him, and volunteer to send him to his father with a letter of recommendation—and second, he wasn't expecting NMJ, who for all his flaws did seem to ignore JGY's background in good ways as well as bad, to call him the son of a prostitute.

I definitely don't read the coffin at the end as romantic. Or I mean, uh, there's the romance of an obsessive stalker-murderer finally getting his victim, and that's not nothing (unironically; look, I'm a Hannibal fan), but I don't think it's usually what people mean. This is a shitty end for JGY, part of how thoroughly he loses and is destroyed. I think to some extent it might be that he doesn't want LXC to be the one who killed him, and to some extent it's an act of defiance—now that he has nothing to lose, not even his life, he's going to go out fighting. I would expand on this but this post is ridiculously long and I have way too many quotes, maybe I'll do it in a separate post later on—but if you look at the description of it in the text, plus the subsequent description of it in the coffin...yeah. JGY didn't want to die, he didn't want to be engaged in a mutually destructive thing with NMJ; he wanted to leave NMJ behind in the past, and move on. It's not, for him any kind of fulfillment, is my read.

All quotes are taken from the Exiled Rebels translation: ch 48-50 for everything about NMJ and JGY's past relationship, ch. 47 for the description of JGY's containment measures for NMJ's head, and ch. 106-108 for the quotes about JGY's fear of NMJ's fierce corpse. The description of JGY going into the coffin is at the end of 108 if you want to have a look, and there's more in 109 and 110 about the difficulty of sealing NMJ's fierce corpse/its power and violence.

#ship meme #ship negativity #this is so goddamn long #how many quotes can I fit in one post? dear god #also there's no way the coffin is actually staying shut for 100 years see ch. 113 #also I didn't want to rely on material that isn't in the final text but if you do look at the scene of JGY cutting NMJ's head off #the same theme of NMJ's fierce corpse's murderous obsession + JGY's fear are very much there #also I'm not sure I'd call it a notp exactly? like obviously I don't see it but there are versions of it I can kind of enjoy #but I figured I was being well by all accounts it doesn't make sense enough that I wanted to circle it as like. a warning XP #we can't change places #anger burned in his heart #more than one tag could contain #long meta

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