#going to be safe in cdd spaces because our trauma is always going to be brushed off when its inconvenient for the narrative | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

lunas-a-little-looney · 10 months ago

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I'm still new to discovering I have a system (just got over that denial bridge a few weeks ago, and have been struggling mentally since (and before) then), and the system discourse online has been very... distressing? I want to lean into safe communities meant for learning about or exploring (my own) CDD, and find some sort of comraderie.

I don't understand what's happening really - I don't exactly understand endogenic systems, but I also don't understand why people would be anti-endogenic. It just seems... hateful. And purposeless.

I've seen tons of anti-endo posts (before I learned what endo meant) that made me terrified to lean too heavily into traumagen spaces (if they could say this about awful stuff about one group of people, what could they say about me? *it is very much a learned response from trauma, but it is what it is I guess*

I guess the point is to ask if you were ever anti-endo, and what has it been like since you started making pro-endo posts? I know it's silly, but I'm trying to figure all of this out and I'm terrified of receiving hate for refusing to hate someone because of how they identify

Thanks (and sorry for the book lol)

- Host

First I want to say it's not silly at all!! Being a newly discovered system is overwhelming and it's normal to want to have a community of those who understand you. It's also normal to want to avoid being harassed and fakeclaimed. I'm happy you reached out! This reply is going to be kinda long (sorry I tried to keep it short) but I did my best to address all your questions. I hope this helps! And I wish you the best on your new journey of self discovery!!

Second I would strongly recommend that you stay away from syscourse if you can. It's really draining and overwhelming even for us and we have a pretty good handle on our system. As a newly discovered system it's going to be even worse.

Unfortunately I don't have any specific recommendations for cdd focused spaces which accept endos (if anybody knows one put it in the replies!) but I will say that pro endo servers, even if they aren't focused on cdds can still be amazing for finding comradery. There will be other cdd systems there and you might find some endos who you relate to as well. Also if you want my dms are open! I'm just one person (well, not exactly) but I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have and suggest ways to help you figure out your system more!

As for why people are anti endo I think it mainly comes down to two things. First is that they think endos are saying they experience the same thing as cdd systems except without the trauma. Endos do not generally claim this*. Second is that people who've spent significant amounts of their lives under attack sometimes they start to see threats where there aren't any.

These systems have debilitating mental illnesses that are criminally misunderstood and romanticized. For them being a system is intrinsically linked with being deeply traumatized, they are not separate. So when they see a community of people claim to have systems but not trauma, they get upset. They feel like that's not possible, because it isn't possible to be a system like *theirs* without trauma. They get frustrated because they think people just want the "quirky" parts of their disorder without the painful ones. That's why they always say endos are faking did, because they can't imagine a system that doesn't have a cdd. They think endos are just people who want to feel special so they claim to have system. Once endos started becoming a part of the community, anti endos felt invaded because now there's a bunch of systems who don't have cdds in the space they thought was for them (keep in mind cdd focused spaces still exist, its just that the plural community as a whole isn't 100% focused on us anymore).

Once they feel invaded, they feel like they need to defend their community and they do that by harassing and fakeclaiming endos. Then they act like psychology is on their side (it isn't) and after that it's just increasing amounts of digging their heels in.

I think it mostly comes down to the misconception that endos claim to have did without the disorder part, and then in trying to defend themselves they turn off critical thinking and just do whatever they can to get rid of the perceived threat.

*There is a world of difference between the experiences of most endos and most cdd systems but it's not black and white. At this point the term "endo" just means anybody who is not completely traumagenic which includes mixed origin systems. Also, some endogenic systems develop cdds after being exposed to trauma, the only difference is that they were plural beforehand so they're still endogenic. There's others too. The main point is that the plural experience is incredibly personal and doesn't fit well into boxes, categorization is useful and it's important that people understand that in general there are real and big differences between endogenic plurality and cdds but there's no hard lines here.

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sysmedsaresexist · 1 year ago

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This is getting crazy long, adding a cut

Note: I use DID and CDD system interchangeably throughout. When I refer to "DID systems," it's meant to include all CDDs, it's just an old habit. Paraphrasing Colin Ross, it doesn't matter what you've got, it's the same disorder with the same etiology and problems.

First, I should say, no, CPTSD in adults is considered rare (Beauty After Bruises is an amazing, easy to understand resource that is endorsed by the ISSTD). Totally possible, yes, but rare-- it is largely associated with childhood trauma.

The difference here is that my server is for those with a system, with CPTSD. So adults with no system but CPTSD wouldn't be allowed either.

So when I say "shouldn't need access", most endogenics do not have CPTSD, or even trauma as a cause for their system. Now, I've come across a lot of endogenic systems that uh... Describe things very similar to disordered systems and CPTSD, but at that point, they fall into the second group, and aren't ready to acknowledge the connection between their system and trauma.

Or, there is no connection, so... Why be in the space?

We are, I suppose, a medicalized space, in that we support the DSM and research into DID. This means that we hold firm that DID is a childhood trauma disorder. This is from the authors of the DSM, though personally, I believe the age range goes to roughly 12. Current medical consensus is about 9 not accounting for developmental delays.

It does say "hypothesized," but research has come out since this book that confirms this hypothesis, and it's why the DSM 5 TR was updated to discuss the brain scans and bio markers (see the link from my first post).

So even if an endogenic system finds themselves with CPTSD in adulthood, I don't feel that it's safe or appropriate that they be in a space where members are frequently discussing horrific child abuse and how that trauma interacts with their systemhood. Not that we don't support them, but there are more appropriate spaces.

With that out of the way, I want to touch on some of the quick points: (this is going to be shorter, I lost the original version)

Space is pro endo, but endos can't join: The original discussion seemed to imply that separate, closed spaces are unneeded and unhealthy. I want to counter that by explaining our reasoning and give a glimpse into the space for people who think we're just in there shit talking endos all day long. I want to show that there are good reasons and that it can a VERY happy and healthy space. Not everyone accessing these spaces are anti endo, the majority are pro endo, but have trouble finding common ground with endogenic systems.

If you haven't seen my blog before, I frequently post censored images from Twitter of stupid things people say about DID. There are several instances on my blog of endogenic systems saying things like, "people with DID are just disordered plurals, they need to heal before they come into OUR spaces because they're too negative about the experience."

Like, if we want to talk about internalized sanism and ableism, it's just as easy to make a case that endogenic systems think less of those with DID. Did you know that the DSM says you can be functional and still have DID? Most don't, and I'm getting awful tired of hearing about how people aren't distressed enough to be disordered.

That's ableism. This idea that you have to be totally dysfunctional and unable to take care of yourself. No, you can be very successful and healthy with a diagnosis. Managing symptoms doesn't mean the problem is gone. There is not a threshold for struggling. Stability and functionality are constantly changing states, and you can go years before you find yourself suddenly spiraling and struggling again. You weren't... Not disordered during that time. You don't fluctuate in and out of disorderedness-- you're always disordered with varying, changing levels of functionality, and to imply otherwise is not only wrong but offensive.

As well, a lot of things discussed in plural spaces are unhealthy for those with DID. Take alter autonomy and distinction, for example. Doing that is further encouraging dissociation in DID systems, but those who seem hesitant or unwilling to push for alter autonomy are frequently compared to trying for final fusion-- often referred to as su*c*de in those spaces (trust me).

(this very well-known and very popular endogenic syscourser on Twitter also likes to refer to those with DID as "culturally singlets". It's great. /s)

Hint: you can achieve functional multiplicity with indistinct alters, and both final fusion and functional multiplicity are good healing options, neither is better or worse than the other-- it's a personal choice, people should mind their own business

You're spiritual: this is self moderation. It's nothing against you or our space (you've mentioned interest a few times, we'll come to that, this is just talking). Our space encourages a mix of medical and personal beliefs. If the medical aspect isn't as important to you, or you feel that you won't fit into the space or conversations because of the medical aspect, it's just not the appropriate space for you. That's it. Again, nothing about you or the space.

Here's the thing, most systems don't know the full extent of their trauma. It would be impossible to gatekeep the space. Our requirements are: be mature and an adult, be able to self moderate, encourage and support valid research and facts (this is where we lose most endogenics-- as if we can't be pro DSM and pro endo at the same time)-- we like psych critical people, we recognize there are problems in the field, but understand that finding a good therapist can be life-changing and that we should be pushing for better education for clinicians in dissociative disorders, and finally... Recognize you've got something going on between trauma and system. Not what the trauma is, or how much or for how long-- just, "yeah, pretty sure I'm traumatized and I'm struggling, I want to learn from other systems that have been in recovery to see what's going on."

I'm in my thirties, I've been through the system in a hundred different ways since I was a kid (I was already in therapy at 5, and I specifically remember this because the therapist accidentally told me that my dad was dead. I was very confused because my (about to be revealed step-)father was very much alive).

My goal in the server is to hopefully help others learn from my mistakes and journey. It's to share what I've learned through therapy with those who don't have access yet. It's to compare therapists with others so they can figure out if they're comfortable with their current therapist or can do better. It's promising younger systems (18+) that it does get better.

Which leads into:

Community support is incredibly important, but as I said, we're old, we're tired, and it's not our job to educate. Most don't want to hear what we've got to say anyways.

Did you know that one of the big articles that's ALWAYS added to the "Proof for Endogenics" lists, dimensions of normal multiplicity, is actually trying to DISPROVE DID? I spoke with Kymbra Clayton, the author of another often cited article, critiquing the requirement of oneness. Hers was one of the first articles to discuss healthy multiplicity as a treatment option for DID. It's an old article and it's very important to our history. She stated her article has nothing to do with endogenics systems (it took a while to explain to her).

Did you know Allen Frances actually had zero ability to remove DID from the DSM? He's actually just really egotistical and everyone fell for the article he basically wrote about himself and how important he was.

Did you know that there's actually a reason that DID wasn't put under Trauma and Stressor Related Disorders? (It's because TSRDs are caused by a single event to which the symptoms can be traced to the event). You can't do that with DID because it's multiple events and you usually can't remember them anyways-- it is still a trauma-based disorder and that 'and/or' under criteria B doesn't mean trauma is optional, it means you might or might not remember it)

No, no one ever wants to hear what the "sysmeds" say, even when the problem being discussed is damaging to the DID community and there are verifiable, easy to find research and information backing what we're saying. Sysmed has frequently become synonymous with citing this research and these facts. One of the biggest endogenic syscoursers recently made a post that the word system started with IFS and that those with MPD adopted the word from there. And yet, in 1905...

There has STILL been zero acknowledgement, apology, or correction to their followers or the DID community. Yes, many DID systems are very upset with the endogenic community and don't want to interact thanks to harm done and the lack of care given. Anyone complicit in the speading of misinformation isn't welcome either.

Unfortunately, it's mostly endos in that group.

If we're not on the same page with facts and research, our space isn't for you. We don't want to argue these facts, and supporting those facts doesn't mean we're anti. It just means we're tired of arguing and people can join when they're ready to hear about the research and history.

Questioning systems are very welcomed. There are several other disorders that can very much feel like alters, and we hope our space can help people figure out what's going on with them. If someone figures out that they're struggling with BPD and not DID, again, they become a valuable resource for other questioning systems in talking about the differences that helped them figure it out. Everything I've said above this explains why we don't accept questioning endogenic systems. If you decide you are trauma-based, and likely have a CDD, then great. Otherwise, there are more appropriate spaces.

Biological essentialism: As I said, there are now brain scans that show bio markers for childhood trauma (timeframe based on growth and healing of matter and structure, compared to other trauma-based disorders), and that would be the mechanism that allows us to dissociate to the extent that we do. This is (a very simplified explanation but) tangible proof that it's different. There's another paper that covers all of the neuroimaging data and puts it in a single place. (This is actually EXTREMELY exciting, as it essentially shows that the biggest predictor for DID is emotional neglect (not abuse, neglect), which is showing to be more damaging than physical and sexual abuse combined)

"We're expected to centre this in our recovery," is a sentiment that I agree with. Western culture specifically believes that talk therapy-- going over the same scenario repeatedly-- is the best way to heal, but that's not true for everyone. I've said before on this blog and I'll continue to say it, if you never figure out what traumatized you, that's okay. It is completely and entirely possible to heal without ever facing those memories. Acknowledgement is more than enough.

Our space is for people who can recognize the trauma reactions in themselves. Like I said earlier, I've seen many endogenic systems that... To people around them, are very clearly... Dealing with some stuff. Until they can see the unhealthy reactions in themselves, they're not ready, and this may be a better way to explain why we don't allow endogenic systems in? Many younger systems, endos and DID alike, still can't see their behaviour as it affects others. Many adult bodied endogenic systems don't see their behaviour as problematic or dysfunctional, or how trauma may be affecting them. Until they decide that they want to change their behaviours, our space is not for them, as changing behaviours and reactions is the goal, and it's how you can still heal without knowing the cause. Being able to trace the reaction to a source in your memories may help the process, but it's not necessary.

This is also why many alters can appear to have formed for no reason. It can take years and years for alters to gain consciousness, and even longer to make themselves known, and it can become impossible to pinpoint when exactly they came to be. You can still recognize behaviours that may give you an idea, but again, not necessary. "Mixed origin" is actually an extremely common experience in DID systems just because it can be so hard to tell and not everyone is ready to look.

Once you acknowledge your behaviour is a problem, it's a lot easier to see how trauma plays into that. It's like a turning point, so to speak.

These seem like stereotypical blanket statements, but I don't say any of this without having seen these things first hand. I've personally argued every single one of those points on both Twitter and Tumblr, multiple times. I watch people downplay their struggles on the daily, and I understand from other users that conversations like that, and reassurance that people are not disordered just because they're struggling "a little bit" are all too common.

I'm not sure I understand this part:

so if you're saying that making your own choices on the basis of having accepted your trauma - wouldn't you.. like, ultimately, decenter the actual traumatic experiences?... would you still consider yourself a system then? (rhetorical.)

If I reconciled all of my trauma, my alters will continue to exist regardless. They have their own trauma to reconcile, and some of them... I doubt ever will. I don't know that the process can ever be completed-- I think you just continue to get better and handle yourself better over the years and as you learn more and gain life experience. Bad days and bad reactions become fewer and further, but I don't think it'll ever not be an issue in some capacity.

Talking shit is talking shit: but we're not talking shit, we're talking about our frustration with racism in the system communities. There's a difference. Have you been watching the tulpa discourse??

Older systems: Did you know that the average age of system discovery is actually more like 18-21? In clinical settings, it's extremely rare to see young systems-- they typically present in late twenties/early thirties. Now, keep in mind, this will change. The advent of the internet has made figuring things out easier, and as the younger generation reaches an age that they can seek out therapy on their own, the averages will change, but for older systems (you're also an adult, correct?) It's extremely common that system realization happens much later. I didn't discover my system at all until I was like 20. Colour me shocked, I literally would never have figured it out, left to my own devices.

This is a normal occurrence. It doesn't necessarily mean that your system formed only in adulthood. The mechanisms for DID can be placed in childhood and onset of symptoms can happen decades later. This is discussed in both the ICD and DSM.

You call all of this anti endo/sysmed rhetoric.

I call it basic facts about DID and its presentation, and I'm telling you that I'm incapable of helping you figure out your origins. The last thing we, as a system and moderator, want to do to ANY system is inadvertantly convince them that they're one thing, when they're not. Our goal is to provide information to help people figure it out on their own.

To top it off, most don't want to hear these things. Introspection, when presented with new facts, scares a lot of people.

Just stating facts about DID is enough to send most endos on a rant about how we're trying to medicalize them and convince them they're traumagenic.

No, I'm just saying that the reason you use to say that you don't have DID is based on a myth or flat out lie.

(the general 'you', not you specifically)

I think it's equally true to say that, while anti endo/sysmed rhetoric is dangerous to new systems, factual information about DID and its presentation isn't welcomed (and is often outright seen as an attack) in plural spaces, and that the lack of those resources and facts is equally as dangerous.

When plural spaces allow us to talk about our disorder without assuming the worst about us, maybe the communities can mix.

But that time is, unfortunately, not now, and I hope you can see-- I'm not some monster. I believe in the endogenic experience.

But you're one of the very few people to actually have a real conversation with me.

(I am also in a mixed server, maybe that matters? I don't know, but there's a small group of pro/endos that help me learn and figure out more about the plural community)

It's clear you've read everything I've written, you made the effort to try to understand. Most don't. To the majority of the plural community, I'm just a sysmed with nothing important to say and no reason to be upset.

Like, yeah, mhm, I'm just making up facts over here.

@jadeitis I think I'm done??? Maybe time for a new post with cuts??

Edit: I want to expand on this point just a little more.

I think that's another key difference between plural and CDD spaces.

Our spaces are very much about looking at alternative diagnoses and trying to rule them out. This means that other disorders are frequently discussed in-depth, and everyone encourages those discussions. These are considered learning possibilities with willing participants, not personal attacks.

In plural spaces, the questioning of self ID is borderline taboo. The suggestion that an endogenic system may be experiencing symptoms of a different disorder, and discussions of disorders with similar presenting symptoms, is frequently seen as questioning someone's awareness of themselves.

Bruh, we're all least aware about ourselves. It very, very often takes an unbiased third party to examine you, your symptoms/experiences, and medical history to say, yeah, no, that's not quite as normal you think or it doesn't quite work like that.

This way too often leads to clashes in mixed spaces.

so as a member of a newly discovered system, i have to say, the exclusionist shit got old FAST.

Having previously experienced things (&mainly on tumblr lbr) like ace exclusionism and widespread biphobia, transmedicalism, as well as the current issue in the disability community around the separation of "physical" and "mental" disabilities; the endomisia sticks out in this community we are now exploring, in terms of rhetoric. i wonder how many exclusionists are also people who would've been excluded in those other "movements" i mentioned..

like do y'all really think im .... not real then? I'm not any of the things i say and FEEL i am? that my experience, my life, is just. fake. because... it doesn't fit your *CAPITALIST* narrative of MISERY? [plain text: misery]

we understand that being a system is important to your collective self-understanding. it is for us as well.

we understand that being disordered may be a central pillar for some as well. let's get this straight: that is valid.

we are here to support you. you're welcome in our communities when you drop the fash attitude.

believe it or not, we have endured a LOT of trauma. but you're not going to get us to pathologise our VERY EXISTENCE. not even at gunpoint bro.

in my view, there is a spiritual dimension here, and its fine if you're not into that, but how the fuck does your conscience allow you to try to box everyone else into your understanding of things?

have you ever met someone who's different from you? have you *connected* with someone who is different from you? have you *seen* how different life experiences can be? HOW can you think any of this is okay to push on others?

I'm NOT SAYING that you cannot have your trauma-focused spaces. but like. is that what you want to focus on? or would you rather focus on joy? you don't have to decide immediately, but let me know in time.

i know it hurts. im sorry about that. focusing on joy in building our community doesn't mean we can never talk about trauma, grief and pain.

much love

Jade

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sysmedsaresexist · 1 year ago

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I appreciate your response, genuinely

Hopefully this sheds a bit of light on the DID community and what goes on in our spaces

I actually help run a server for adult bodied systems with CDDs that is generally pro endo (I say generally because we have over 300 adult systems as with all different views, some ranging from "endos do not exist" to "endos are different" to "I don't care, I just need a trauma focused space appropriate for my age range and experience"). Frankly, we don't care what your stance is. It's not a topic that's brought up often, surprisingly (though we do have opt-in syscourse channels, but right now it's mostly talk about this tulpa mess).

Many of our members are spiritual and religious, many believed they were endogenic at one point in their journey

This is not a space gatekept by trauma Olympics

Trauma is trauma is trauma

Trauma is not an action, it's a reaction

And if something traumatized you, that's valid, that's real, we may not have experienced the same severity of abuse, but the reactions that we're experiencing are similar

I was physically abused and yelling scares me, I'm still working on not seeing all raised voices as dangerous, that is my trauma reaction

Someone who wasn't physically abused but verbally abused would likely also have this same problem, and together we can share tips and tricks and stories, talk about how we're struggling and our relationships, lean on each other

How we got there doesn't matter, a good, trauma focused recovery space is about dealing with those reactions, regardless of how someone ended up with them

So to answer your questions:

- A system that has largely healed becomes an important resource for those still in recovery and people new in their healing journey, hopefully they stay around to share their stories

- Change is good, always strive to be better

- We have specific channels to discuss religion and spirituality in depth, and conversation is allowed outside of those spaces provided no one becomes uncomfortable. For myself, I'm easily led into believing what's happening to me is spiritual and getting all delusional about it, so I avoid those channels because I'm capable of moderating myself (an expectation in the server).

Relating personal religion and spirituality to your experiences is incredibly important for some people, but it's equally important to remember that not everyone is capable of those discussions and traumatized people can be quick to jump to, "ARE YOU FORCING THIS ON ME?! ARE YOU JUDGING ME FOR HOW I'M HANDLING MYSELF??" Being traumatized also means you're more likely to be negatively affected by those conversations-- something that endo systems can't seem to grasp about those with DID.

I'm happy you're spiritual, great, don't judge me for not being spiritual and respect that I'm not the person to have those conversations with because it makes my recovery harder. That doesn't mean I don't support spiritual systems or that anyone is doing anything wrong. I'm just over in a different channel, cheering you on and hoping for the best. These differences say nothing about either of us as people or systems, but it's frequently taken with offence when someone says, "maybe not the space/time/place for that conversation right now." We're not hiding those discussions away in a secret channel, we're just saying that not everyone is at the point yet to fully participate in the conversation.

Being able to have mature conversations and being able to step back when you start to find yourself struggling is paramount to having good, safe trauma focused spaces. Learning to moderate yourself is key to learning to handle triggering topics, and gentle exposure with other people who will understand your negative kneejerk reactions is an important experience. While staff is quick to jump in when things go south, it's a normal occurrence to see members go from bickering to supportive in seconds when they see the other person is starting to spiral.

- This last point frustrates me. Trauma based dissociation often means that you were never defined by your trauma. The reactions can dominate your everyday, but if you can't even acknowledge it happened to you and was bad enough to be traumatic, how is it supposed to define you? It's only recently in my journey that I accepted what happened to me as a young child and allowed it to help define me-- what kind of person do I want to be now? What kind of person DID I want to be-- before my mental health and sense of self was blown apart? How do I help others with my experiences? What positive traits did my experiences leave me with? My trauma has always mattered and been an important aspect of us, but we're deciding how it plays into our everyday now.

Recovery and healing isn't about stepping away from your trauma, it's about coming to terms with it and embracing those hurt parts of yourself.

The reason we don't allow endogenic systems in is because they either shouldn't need access to those conversations and spaces (there is a big difference in treatment for PTSD and CPTSD, endogenic systems with later life trauma would likely benefit more from PTSD focused spaces than ours), or they're not ready to acknowledge that they may need those spaces, and anyone not ready to have those conversations will only cause problems for people actively in recovery. It's not our job to teach other systems about trauma and it's effects, and we're not here to convince anyone they have trauma. If a system isn't ready to be in a trauma focused space, that isn't my business.