#funny thing i did realize that i liked being a woman bc of a radfem leaning conversation. but i guess it backfired lol

[naggingatlas]

me and my friend are both nb and once talked about our confusions growing up. and i remember them saying something along the lines of "being nonbinary and treating that as something groundbreaking while also. you know. being latino. is weird, because thats... how white people viewed me either way? i had a stache and arm hair in elementary. to them i was never a girl nor a dude. just a brown fat thing".

its the dehumanization. at a very early age. a girl doesn't have dark skin. a girl isnt too long, too wide, too heavy. a girl is interested in these things only. a girl can see and walk and hear and talk. a girl has friends. a girl isnt weird.

and then youre born a weird girl. a black or brown girl, a fat girl, a disabled girl, physically or mentally. and you're still very much expected to follow the rules of girlhood, it says so on your documents, you have to and you shall. but youre deranged if you think that they'll let you have the rights of a little girl, the few delights of it, the butterflies and cream of it. a let-off for a fault. a compliment without a leer or pity. a gaudy friendship bracelet made with six hands at a sleepover. you can only dream.

but you can only only dream for so long, before it hurts too much and you push it all away, the bad and the good, every dream and butterfly hairclip shoved into a shoebox and buried in the backyard.

and you plough through middle school in hoodies and a bob if your parents are lenient, you muffle the endings of your verbs and adjectives, stealing a vowel whenever you can, you make a secret account that your classmates and family will never find.

and in the evenings you look at pictures of men in dresses. forums they write. a "she", "она", and that stolen vowel here and there.

and they're so beautiful.

and you draw a boy (?) in a dress. a character from a cartoon, or a comic, or your brain. over. and over.

you hear a song from a band that a decade later everyone will find annoying and they use the f word sometimes. you learn the lyrics by heart. and you draw yourself. on the same page. in a suit, with a moustache and a flat chest. and high heels. and fishnets. and the suit becomes a bodysuit. and you keep the stache and you don't add a chest. and you're beautiful too.

"i wish i were a man so i could dress like a woman"

you go on like that for 7 more years.

and then you dig up the shoebox. and you say a prayer for every woman from that forum. and you say a prayer for every electronic musician whose f word you've put through ytmp3. and you say a prayer for every weird girl who's born in that moment and who had been born since the dawn of time.

and you open the shoebox and put on the butterfly hairclip.

and your tits are 4 sizes bigger from the risperidone. and you don't hide them at all.

its fighting to be allowed to be a woman. because you want to be one. and a bajillion other reasons i guess. despite what society presents as an idea of a woman. despite there maybe not needing to be one.

i dont articulate myself well. i cant win arguments with radfems, im not rational, im schizo. i rely on abstractions and vague sensations. but it makes me happy. trans girls make me happy. please exist.

thinking about how i relate to transfem experiences more than to any other trans and gnc ones and how freeing it is to realize that again after being in close proximity to a radfem for a long time and how i will never stop loving my trans sisters. ever.

[papirouge]

Again you admit women are inferior physically and spiritually (as was part of that verse you chose to ignore) Same for your statement that Adam being first is not women being inferior, when you ignore the part in the verse that says women must be submissive to and may not have authority over men because Adam was formed first. As to a lifetime of submission being easier because of the off chance that a man will be obligated to die for her? You got me there. I have no notes.

And again you ignore the fact that I'm asking you what verse is telling that women are "INFERIOR to men" and you still didn't manage to pull out any - as expected, because it doesn't exist lmao. Words do matter. I'm not talking about "submissiveness", being "first" or "having to be quiet". Show me where the word "women are INFERIOR to men" is in the Bible. I'm still waiting.

That being said, yes women are physically inferior to men, it's not rocket science and you don't need to be Christian to acknowledge this. That's why female only space need to be protected. Die mad about it. Women being weaker is one of the reason women are so vulnerable to male violence, get overpowered and in

"Adam being first is not women being inferior" ...yeah because Adam got created FIRST, genius. I'm my family last child, so my elder sister came "first". It doesn't make me "inferior" to her. Please stop acting dumb.

"must be submissive to and may not have authority over"

Now I know you have no idea what you're talking about because you're literally mixing 2 prescriptions that don't even have anything to do with Adam lmao The "submissiveness" refers to Ephesians 5:22 wives & husband relationship, and Timothy 2:12 "women not having authority to men" is in the context of "instruction" (the verse just before - v11). And where do Christian women do get "instruction"??? AT THE CHURCH. You're welcome.

So like I already said, both of those verses are CONTEXTUAL (married women / women in the church assembly) and don't concern ALL women : not every woman is married nor is quarantined inside the church assembly. So please tell me what are celibate Christian women inferior too, again? funny how you're avoiding this question. Because if you did you'd realize this "inferior" thing doesn't actual work because you're hyperfocusing on specific context to brush an opinion on the whole female gender. Flop. "a lifetime of submission" what are celibate Christian women not attending church submitted to, anon? quickly. And admitting that marriage is bondage, that's precisely why Paul told us it was better to stay off alone. But noooo Christianism wants women to be under male authority, still. Dumb.

And men being willing to die for their wife isn't a "one off chance", the actual verse I did refer to (bc you're obviously too dumb to actually get the memo yet stil wanna argue abt Christianism) is "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her" (Ephesians 5:25); so it's not just "taking a chance of dying" but loving her so much to the point of willing to love and die for her" => a self-sacrificing life at the service of their wife. Look at the life of Jesus and you'll notice he did many things for the Church (= the wife) beside just dying once on the cross.

If you had an ounce of intellectual honest, you'd admit the sacrifice is MUTUAL but no, you still wanna act like the Bible gave a heavier burden for the wife somehow...

It's been a veeery long time I discussed with someone being so loud and so wrong.

If you have no notes then shut up. I'm embarrassed for you to act so smartass when you've only managed to show how dumb & uneducated you are. I woudn't been surprised you're a radfem. The lots of you, even when being proven wrong love to keep acting sassy. Get bent.

[gvmrot]

Separatist anon here - its funny to me when osa women get mad at me bc there are lots of women throughout history & around the world who were celibate and they didnt do it for a political reason - they did it bc they cherished their freedom. I didnt know separatism was a practice but Ive been doing it for a long time without even knowing it was a radfem thing. I did it bc I love myself more than anything

"Separatist anon again: sleep3r4gent(.)tumblr(.)com/post/687397324261064704/why-do-you-dislike-the-term-internalized-misogyny#notes - this is how i feel about osa women"s victim complex. Im tired of them refusing to take accountability of how theyve harmed other women"

Linked post (idk how to add images to asks if i even can anymore lol) Anon Question: Why do you dislike the term internalized misogyny? I thought it just meant internalized sexism? OP's Answer: "bc it’s annoying, diverts attention and ultimately means nothing. theoretically all misogynist beliefs a woman holds are “internalized misogyny”, even when it’s things that dont currently affect her and possibly never will like thinking masculine women arent “real women”. by calling it internalized misogyny you’ve directed the conversation from whats at hand, a woman being sexist to other women and perpetuating misogyny, to be about her internal feelings (or your supposition of her internal feelings) and how we have to be nice to her. the abuser was abused in the past type shit, it’s obnoxious like even if it’s worth talking about, now is not the time when you’re talking about the victims or general impact of their actions lmao. also theres an assumption that internalized misogyny directly translates to self hatred. could not be further from the truth, how many countless cases have we heard of of anti choice women who got abortions themselves because “their case is ok” and kept being anti choice? or victim blaming women who have suffered sexual abuse themselves yet treat other victims as lying bitches unlike them pure truthful victims? srsly stop coddling these women, theyre not suffering from bigotry they are just perpetuating it. the concept of self directed misogyny is real and worth talking about and helping women with but it’s not the same thing as what people currently consider “internalized misogyny” to be"

------

For the first part, I agree. It is a little funny because these women, being self proclaimed radical feminists, I'm sure at some point have come to the realization that male oppressive tactics are not isolated to one or just a few areas of the world, it's seen all over the world and is recognized in all kinds of species. Males have an inherent need to control, I think we can all agree on that. We see it everywhere. What benefit/s do women receive from pairing themselves with men? If we are wanting liberation from men, how are we supposed to do that when there are women who refuse to sleep with men? Can't even suggest a sex-strike during the threat of Roe v Wade being overturned without some women acting like we're trying to take away their rights. I have to ask, is it a right to sleep with the enemy? Why do you want that as a right? We should all want to seek freedom so we CAN cherish it, but how can you do that while having romantic relationships with the exact thing that takes freedom away from you? Is it "not all men", I wonder? I thought it was enough? Not enough men to completely separate from them, though?

For the second part, I mostly agree with OP. I think I need to know a little more context to be able to form my own opinion, but just from seeing what happened yesterday how quick an osa woman was to call lesbians misogynists and accuse them of blaming her for her abuse because we said feminism shouldn't be about hating men it's about loving women, and i dared to ask the question if you hate men so much and have these experiences why continue to seek companionship with them, not blaming them for their past experiences but asking why CONTINUE, i'm a misogynist for somehow assuming osa women don't deserve companionship (which isn't at all what I said.) anyway i don't want to get too off topic, but I do see that these women with these victim complexes are very quick to lash out/perpetuate misogyny when their own decisions are questioned. I just feel like at some point you have to realize there isn't going to be "the one good man" and should start to focus your feminism on PLATONIC companionship with women. (have to clarify or i'll get accused of spouting poliles rhetoric)

[goyangii]

It's funny, you're completely right. That's another way my classmate TIF stands out, the way she styles herself is very detailed. No man puts in as much effort as she does. Jeans fitting real well, pants cuffed. Top styled well. And very sanitized scruffy hair. She does the soft boy look very well.

(Oh, and I didn't mean anything by pointing out her weight. It's just that because she has so much fat it's easier for her to pass because a person can mistake her big chest for that of a fat man with a sagging, fat chest, instead of the breasts of a woman. And unfortunately she's not looking too well, she's still continuing and now she has full facial hair, and I'm assuming her voice must have changed too. I didn't know it was her, last I saw her was before quarantine and then I saw her in August, that's a long time. Didn't recognize her. )

And I loved your response, it was really detailed.

1000% agree on this yes! tifs absolutely style themselves way, way more than most dudes - and even gay men usually don't have the same specific brand of aesthetic styling that tifs tend to go for. the uwu soft boi screams tif but they'll insist they're Valid™ and just like real boys. tbh i find it amusing that even as an ex-tif i definitely gravitate to that kind of styling for myself albeit toned down, even down to the sanitized scruffy hair lmao. this is an aesthetic 1000% meant to appeal to women, not men, and it shows in who pursues it and idolizes it (women).

also thank you for clarifying on the weight thing! i see some radfems casually make really harsh comments wrt weight and (usually) tims which i don't personally care about tbqh but i feel bad saying nothing about it wrt tifs since so many of them have severe self image issues in the first place (im friends with a tif who's also korean whose main motive for transition seems to be escaping the judgement of being overweight as a kr female, and it just hurts to see tbh. like she literally can't seem to conceptualize a happy life being heavier and female and i get it). also also, i'm not surprised that by august the next year she'd look/sound completely different, especially with facial hair!! T works quickly and pretty strongly for most tifs. i never had facial hair but i imagine a (presumed) white tif would have a much easier time especially after a year. really hope she gets off it sooner rather than later bc of the health complications assoc with prolonged T usage but it sounds like she's in deep at this point :(

thank you btw! i am very long winded so im glad you did <3

mini rant abt softboi aesthetic under the cut

what i find interesting is so many of them aspire to like, specifically korean inspired male aesthetic (even more specifically kpop boy aesthetic) without realizing normal non-idol korean men dress/groom themselves better than most white men i know (ex - a lot of korean guys i know have a skincare routine and wear bb cream; most normie white men probably don't even know what bb cream is) but they still dress in a very different way. if i had to define it, it's that they tend to dress like men of their age but tifs in the softboi aesthetic dress like teenagers. even korean men, who ime dress and groom themselves much more than the average white dude (ex: i know a few korean guys who have at least a skincare routine, if not use at least bb cream), still are distinct from softboi tifs in that they dress more like normal dudes their age. like, this is the nicer end of how most dress on the daily and this is from a fkn news publication about a church lmao. like, this is dressed up. and they look like young adult men dressed nicely, not cariactures of anime boys lmao

like it's so weird that so many tifs idolize kpop or anime and try to emulate this impossible, not real thing? and that said thing skews heavily young, even uncomfortably young. like if you look at the characters they idolize or identify with, it's all young, skinny, asian men. and it's so gross to me, and why being in trans spaces was so fucking uncomfortable when i was a tif. it's the flip side of tim's obsession with young, skinny, asian girls lmao

one case that rly embodies this is this vtuber i randomly found on twitch while looking for acnh streams due to the update:

almost guaranteed tif based on voice and occupation (preschool teacher) + softboi aesthetic + from what i can tell, strong tif fanbase. but what gets me is from being in his chat for a bit, his fans/viewers are all women (either 'cis' or tif). one even commented something about him being 'genderful' lmao. it's just like, they're trying to be their ideal of men — wholesome, sweet, positive, soft, often very youthful and cute and well styled, etc. — when that man literally exists only in fiction, in anime, in kpop, etc. and yet they cite the existence of those characters in fiction as proof that men can be like that fdslkjdsg it just kills me...like no, most 20+ yr old men are not branding themselves as uwu softbois unless they're groomers trying to access teens on tiktok or something? most men don't even wipe their ass properly LMAO even the men i know who wear nail polish or have long hair to break down gender norms or whatever (sure, buddy, that's what we needed to accomplish that!!) don't act/dress/look like tifs at all and it is legit painful to think abt sometimes. wholeass gender conforming women with a sparkly new gender and yet terfs are the baddies for not calling them men? these are the same types of girls who'd bully me in school for having short hair, or being ssa, or wearing men's clothes.

like in the end it doesn't matter really, bc nothing i say or do will make them change their minds. but that so many tifs are trying to emulate an aesthetic that ultimately idealizes youth, innocence, softness, etc. without realizing the irony that these things are the very trappings of what defines the ideal state of femalehood in most cultures (to the detriment of women, i'll add) is sad tbqh. like there is nothing radical about trying to look like young or soft or innocent etc. as a woman, and there is a reason imo that shotacon runs rampant in certain tif circles (again, it's the inverse of tim's obsession with youth that feeds into lolicon running rampant in certain tim circles). tifs even acknowledge this, albeit in the form of complaining about male 'chasers' seeking out underage-looking tifs (many of whom do look underage as boys, especially pre-hrt) or callout posts about tif artists who often are fujos who draw shotacon. and it's just all so unhealthy and toxic.

i don't believe all tifs are harming anyone by doing so, but it feeds into why trans spaces are infested with people who are terrified of growing up, with tifs who hate to be called men vs. boy and tims who hate to be called women vs. girl. and that is purely dysfunctional, whether it directly hurts me or not, and allows for situations where entire trans discord servers allow unfettered access to minors by adults who are severely stunted in their emotional development, who fetishize the physical ideal of youth...like it's not at all shocking to me that there is a grooming problem in trans circles given this.

anyways idk where to put this but there is some humor to me in that i guess i am genuinely attracted to a lot of these uwu softboi tifs on a surface, physical level (solely, i imagine, bc i am really attracted to 'masc' women), since i've ended up matching w my unfair share of softboi tifs on dating apps w/o realizing fdsggds. i had one ask me if i knew she was a 'boy' bc my profile indicated i was only interested in women and i almost laughed out loud like i wouldn't make that mistake if i were blind and deaf, my god. but it is kind of irritating that any gnc women i run into are either hardcore tifs (who insist they're men bc they like yaoi — sincerely, this is by far the most common core motive i have ever come across, and it is startling to me) or genderspecial women who are she/fae nonbinary and believe in xenogenders.

like i've only ever run into one (1) gnc woman in my area, after yrs of living here at this point, who doesn't identify as a tif (a butch lesbian) but is still a libfem normie that thinks tims just really need to pee in female toilets. it's so utterly depressing.

not in the sense that i've 'lost' out on women i'm attracted to (which is ew to think anyways) but in the sense that so many don't seem to realize you can totally embrace a softboi aesthetic as a woman (i do!), and that liking the aesthetic doesn't make you a man (if anything, ime it's basically a 100% given that you aren't lmao). seeing women hurt themselves or put themselves in dangerous positions, such as binding for hours and hours days on end, is genuinely concerning and should be to anyone with two functioning brain cells to rub together. but it rly seems like nobody cares.

this went on for super long, but it's 4am and im allowed one rant as a treat before i sleep. ty for coming to my ted talk

[faggotron9000000]

there was a lot of drama around moneycat when she left tumblr and i don't remember any of it well enough to comment on it but i think of her a lot bc she was probably one of the first ppl to point me towards leftist politics (& specifically marx)

she was the first trans lady i saw who did that bit that trans ladies do sometimes where they fantasize that a shitty cis dude would get good if only he became a woman-- which is a funny bit if you don't turn it into like, an ideology lmao.

she was one of the first of many ppl who i saw promoting the radical feminist ethos that 1) gender is defined as a political hierarchy that privileges men and subjugates people who can have babies, referred to as 'women'. the hierarchy is inherent and defining-- you cannot have even the concept of "men" without a counterpoint concept of "women" to contrast them against, and that contrast inevitably plays out via oppression and violence. hierarchy is too entrenched in gender for gender itself to be rehabbed; it needs to be scrapped, evolved-past, into a fully egalitarian future where biology is irrelevant.

this fucked with my head as a freshly-formed trans man because like, i don't think this definition is wrong-- it's an accurate description of how gender has been conceptualized & how it has functioned, at least in my world here in america.

i think it's only recently that i think i've realized that gender is only one of the hierarchies that we live with every day, and its ultimately one of the weakest in terms of producing either solidarity or subjugation, for better and worse. at least ime, i tend to find solidarity among poor/neurodivergent/poc men than i do among non-men who are none of those things.

tl;dr narratives about class struggle cannot be remapped onto gender and still be coherent, bc gender does not change one's prospects for life as strongly as class does-- while women with money do suffer under patriarchy, but the actual punishment for forsaking gender norms is... losing your financial security and class position.

anyway i can't say too much bad about moneycat bc while her takes were awful in 2014-- arguably, she personally was one of the ppl who led me to put off my transition for like, a year and a half; that sucked at the time but tbh wasn't that big of a deal, in the scheme of things-- but being challenged by her led me to figure out some things that have stuck with me since then, in a good way.

the idea that gender is a path to political/ethical purity-- women good, men bad!!!!-- has decades of history in feminist philosophy so moneycat didn't really do anything that her forebears didn't set up, and it kind of makes me uncomfortable that she (a mentally ill trans woman) is still remembered as this unique monster when i see so many of you assholes in the years since implicitly-but-loudly agreeing with her. "men are the bad gender" has been a normie opinion for ~30yrs, she wasn't special. and having reckoned with myc's bad 2014 takes, i think i'm better equipped to own my identity and justify myself to assholes than a lot of the trans men i see coming out today, who are desperately self-conscious about being men at all.

imho moneycat was a worthy ideological challenge for me & i'm disappointed in how i now, ~8yrs later, live in a landscape where people agree with her but don't think about it-- i would wayyyyy rather argue with a radfem trans woman about why men deserve dignity and humanity than spend an hour in the same room with any of the little bratty trans queers i run into who just think men are gross and refuse to even try to justify it. at least she cared about knowing why she thought what she thought, at least that gave me something real to chew on.

between her & jobhaver (sex-negative radical feminist trans woman SWer) i feel like i got an early crash course on reckoning with radical feminism in an environment where the well was not completely poisoned bc all the ppl bringing it up were trans women-- which didn't tell me that radical feminism is right, only that i am capable of hearing from radicals & empathizing with them even if their opinions hurt my feelings. because of this, i don't think radical feminism is inherently transphobic-- its entirely possible for radical feminist action & political theory to be trans-inclusive, hypothetically, someday. i don't think its worth it to shy away from all self-proclaimed radical feminism any time it shows its face, when our contemporary feminist scene is so lacking in materialist critique & so easily co-opted by corporations and government.

i dont think the ultimate goal of radical feminism-- an egalitarian future where biology is irrelevant-- is a bad one. i think their failure comes in the assumption that binary gender will disappear if only we socially condemn it enough-- an opinion that is invariably transphobic against binary trans people but is also shared between radical feminists and the majority of nonbinary people i have met, so do with that what you will i guess. hopefully this attitude leaves me open to solidarity with radical feminists (and gender abolitionists in general) at a time when like, i really would like their help + would also like to see them evolve past the ongoing plague of TERFs and general transphobia

i realized that i prefer a materialist analysis of gender over things that validate me personally, and i've tried to find a balance between those things since, which-- like, it's hard, but the journey's been good imo. now when i log on instead of seeing moneycat's radfem marxist blogging, i feel like i kind of just get a firehose of regurgitated decade-old shit-talk without anything to actually think on or build on or learn from, and like. if i'm going to be the constant subject of debate in my social circles could i at least not die of boredom while i'm here

does anyone remember....... monetizeyourcat