#feels good icl | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

batsplat · 5 months ago

Note

Oh im obses whit your blog like you are such a great historian on vale and love the way you analys stuff admire the way of writing all of your toughs in such a corent way 🩷🩷🐹

this is so nice, thank you!! okay so this ask was initially sent in response to this post about how marc knew what a dick valentino was to his rivals and appreciated/wished to emulate that side of him, in particular in the context of copying the jerez pass. and... well, there is one more follow-up post to that I did want to make. it didn't really work within that post because it's pretty speculative, but I think it's fun! here goes

so you know argentina 2018, right, big drama, reconciliation over, bla bla (I promise this is going in a more fun direction, stick with me here). there's a bit of marc's post-race media scrum that I am a wee bit obsessed with. or well, two specific lines, one in english (0:00) and one in spanish (1:02) - I've included the full responses for context, but in this post I'm really only interested in those two lines

in english:

But he was in the past also 25 years old, and will remember, everybody.

and in spanish:

He has also been 25 years old and, well, I hope that people also remember.

... 25 years old, did you say?

okay, look, fair warning. the rest of this post is going to be reading too much into what was probably an off-handed comment - even if, I'd just like to point out, it is something he felt the need to say twice. but let's just have some fun here, and read too much into it. as a treat

so obviously the most generic way to read this is him saying 'well valentino used to be really aggressive on-track too, so people shouldn't be criticising me more than they did him'. thing is, I wouldn't say there was that much of a noticeable decline in how aggressive valentino was being, and 2017 did still feature some major scraps where valentino very much got his elbows out (cf assen and phillip island, I included a bit more detail on this in the marc race rec post). sure, valentino did increasingly have his reservations about some of the behaviour of younger riders, so maybe he was less aggressive now relative to the field... but I just don't feel like that's quite what this line is implying. it's also not about valentino making 'mistakes' in general, because there would have been no reason to refer back to past-valentino in that regard... the 25 year old version of valentino was considerably more error-free than the 39 year old

so then, my theory is that it's about valentino's controversies! that's what people "will remember", right - it's not the general style of riding, not just innocent mistakes, it's the times when valentino caused a bit of a stir on and off the race track. now, again, you could go the generic route here and say 'ah well maybe marc is just thinking of all the mess valentino got himself involved in when he was younger, from getting into a fist fight with max biaggi at age 22 to pissing off casey stoner through his aggressive riding at laguna at age 29'. but let's say for a moment that marc was thinking a bit more specifically than that... after all, if we're just talking about valentino controversies in general, surely marc should be able to think of a rather more recent example where valentino, like marc at argentina 2018, caused another rider to crash and was subsequently penalised for his riding? of course, marc probably didn't want to bring up that particular controversy - but it's still interesting he feels the need to refer back to a younger version of valentino at all, the fact that this crossed his mind in the first place to make him bring it up unprompted while making his case. so maybe when marc, who is after all a known valentino rossi fan, refers twice to what valentino was like at "25 years old"... he is in fact thinking of what valentino was like when he was 25 years old. and in what year would that be? well, here's the thing. it would be 2004

readers of the sete post can probably guess where I'm going with this, but let's just take a moment to review what specific on-track incidents marc could be thinking of here. let's give him a little bit of extra leeway in terms of the age, even though I trust marc to be more on top of the exact age gap than valentino was in times past. let's throw in one year either way, so 2003 to 2005, and draw up a list of any particularly controversial races valentino was involved in. here's what I've got:

assen 2004 - valentino executed a hard overtake for the win on the last lap on sete gibernau. he's not in complete control and almost loses the front at the next corner, which would have taken them both out

qatar 2004 - after his team rubber up his grid slot the night before, valentino gets slapped with a back-of-the-grid penalty. he ends up crashing out of the race and burns his relationship with sete in the aftermath

jerez 2005 - at a time when their relationship is already very chilly, valentino and sete engage in another duel. valentino executes a block pass with contact at the final corner and is booed by the crowd

motegi 2005 - the first chance to seal that year's title, and one valentino would very much have liked to take to spite honda. an unwise overtaking attempt on melandri leaves both on the ground

so, my guess is that neither assen nor motegi were really big enough controversies to fit the bill, though maybe they stuck in marc's mind as instances of 'reckless riding' that he includes in a more generic internal understanding of young valentino rossi. we do of course know for a fact that marc was more than aware of what happened at jerez 2005, not least because he, you know, directly copied that move twelve years later (again, link to the relevant post). like marc in argentina 2018, valentino barged into a rival in rather controversial fashion, and obviously it also made the relationship between him and said rival deteriorate still further. sure, you can't really argue the move was 'as bad' as argentina 2018, but as far as I'm concerned it has the same general vibe

you know what else has the same general vibe? here's a race description for you:

a 25 year old rider is sent to the back of the grid for a reason they consider unfair

they proceed to deliver a phenomenal performance even by their lofty standards, quickly working their way up to a position that seemed unattainable to them

they barge a rival out of the way in their impatience, reaching back to apologise for the move

the race ends poorly for them and they fail to score any points

afterwards, their relationship with a rival is ruined as a result of the events of the race, and the whole thing remains a lingering controversy for years to come

one race that fits this description is, of course, argentina 2018. the other is qatar 2004. there's obviously plenty of details that are significantly different - valentino's move on barros is less egregious and far less controversial, and his race ends in the gravel rather than with a post-race time penalty. still, that start of valentino's? the impatience? the post-race fury? the repercussions this race had? come on, look at the race footage I included in the qatar post and tell me there's not a little bit of a shadow of that qatar fury to the argentina recklessness

this is a point I snuck into the marc race recs post, where I included this excerpt from a post-argentina 2018 write-up:

phillip island 2003, hm? as it happens, in the qatar post, I did include a bit of the autobiography that compares those two specific races:

so, phillip island 2003: a performance that made everyone wonder just how much valentino had left in reserve to draw on whenever he needed it. what valentino is saying here is that this performance wasn't a result of him holding back in all the other races that year - this was speed that was accessible to him only in that moment because he was so angry. so yes, maybe it's a valid question to wonder what would have happened at phillip island 2003 if it hadn't just been the ghost of his bike that had to pick its way through the stragglers. then again, valentino says it's not just rage that does the trick for him - it's controlled rage... which is all well and good, except when you lose control

and see also:

that's what argentina 2018 is all about, isn't it? it's a performance that's rooted in impatience, in restlessness, in frustration - where marc tuns his "rage into pure speed", as valentino would put it, in a hubristic dismissal of the rest of the field. ideally, the two of them channel those emotions to spur themselves on to special, signature performances... but sometimes, it gets the better of them. it got the better of marc that day in argentina and cost him the tentative peace with valentino. at qatar, it could have cost valentino the title

(also shades of this in jerez 2020 - an error sets the stage for some extraordinary pace before it all goes wrong) (catalunya 2003 is a fun more compact nephew to that race without the unhappy ending)

now, look, am I saying that marc was really referring back to qatar 2004 specifically, a race that had happened fourteen years earlier, when making an off-hand remark in a post-race media scrum as he tried to do some damage control in the wake of one of the most controversial races of his career? well, no. he could have been! but it's unlikely. maybe he's shit at maths and was actually thinking about laguna 2008 after all. still, I would like to once again point out that he felt the need to mention valentino's behaviour at age twenty five not once but twice. he's telling us that he wants people to remember what valentino was like at that age, and in the most literal sense I am doing what he's asking for. surely it's worth at least noting that there just happens to be a race where valentino was at that exact age and his temper overcame his rationality, leading to him making a costly error... surely it's worth acknowledging this...

even if marc wasn't actually obliquely referring back to that race or indeed any of the races I mentioned above, of course the parallels between valentino's foibles and marc's are in any case interesting. it speaks to how they get those special performances out of themselves, the similarities in how they operate in that regard... but of course also in how they both sometimes stray rather close to the limit, how they repeatedly flirt with crossing the line. a stubbornness and a hubris and a rage that can sometimes lead to disaster for the both of them. and another thing - who knows if marc was thinking about qatar 2004, but he must have been thinking about something. that's the point of that jerez post, right... marc is valentino's successor in so many ways, he has fashioned himself in valentino's image - and he keenly grasps and remains aware of all the different aspects of that legacy. he's the most accomplished of valentino's students and he felt strongly that what he did in that race in argentina was in some way comparable to what valentino himself had been doing at his age, part of the same tradition even. yes, to some extent marc is obviously accusing valentino of hypocrisy here: how can you judge me when you were once young and foolish too? his tone isn't exactly filled with remorse either, is it, he's pretty feisty in that media scrum! still, there's something more to it... something almost poetic to the whole thing, wouldn't you say? valentino had just accused marc of ruining the sport - and in response marc wants people to remember that they are just the same

#the audience (sobbing): you can't just point at everything and say it's about the sete/valentino rivalry #me: *points at argentina 2018* this is about the sete/valentino rivalry #idol tag #//#2018 argentina #muxas-world #and thank you that's REALLY sweet + appreciated #completely forgot about this sitting in my drafts icl #someone interacted with that post again and i was like. wait a moment i have a follow up in my drafts #i do love marc i always feel like spiritually he's alongside me doing my deep cuts and narrative parallels and all that #there's just something so charming about the idea that he's really aware of what comparable thing vale was doing at any given age #that being said. marc. 'i did a few mistakes' 'i think i did everything well' 'i'm very very... very “happy”' marc everything is on fire #motogp race watch marathon and it's phillip island 2003 // qatar 2004 // jerez 2005 // jerez 2013 // argentina 2018 is this anything #maybe chuck in misano 2019 actually. feels like a good bookend #curse tag #brr brr

50 notes · View notes

batsplat · 3 days ago

Note

Kind of a weird question but I was wondering if you have ever watched the motogp documentary shows, I think there are two? I've never seen anyone talk about them before so I'm assuming they're not very good. I was just wondering what your thoughts are on them. Also, if you have watched them or if you haven't watched them I was wondering if there is a specific reason for that or just generally your thoughts on sports documentaries like these ones or the F1 one or the tennis one.

I really love reading all your posts on motogp and tennis, thank you so much for contributing so much to the community!

thank you, that's very kind!! and yeah, we've had one season of 'motogp unlimited' and two seasons of 'there can only be one'. (every single time I try and remember the name for the second one, my brain goes 'and then there were none' before remembering what the actual title is. very different vibe.) I have watched them, for which the main reason is... uh. curiosity, ig? I'm interested in how the sport presents itself, interested in what they're doing for fan engagement, even when I'm not necessarily the target audience. I actually got into f1 in a slightly dumb way because they'd announced a tennis version of drive to survive and I was curious what that'd look like, so me and my flatmate decided to watch drive to survive. then some of the actual races, and it just sort of spiralled from there

which is probably the only new fan of anything that tennis show created - don't bother checking it out. absolute drivel. I know about the issues with dts and I am obviously more aware of the inaccuracies by now, but the main sin of the tennis version is that they never figured out how to make the sport remotely compelling. they made a show called 'break point' without explaining what a break of serve is. the central narrative tension of a tennis match and they just squander it. dts obviously doesn't engage all that much with the sporting side of f1 - but it does very early on provide you with the concept of a pit stop, this moment of direct interaction between the team and the driver, how suddenly the fate of the driver is completely dependent on the team etc etc. it's such a simple thing but it's immediately engaging... I get that it's a fine balance to strike between focusing on the characters and giving information about the actual sport, but I cannot emphasise enough how easy the drama of the serve/return dynamic should be to get across. I had a similar rant about this with the challengers film earlier this year actually... and again, I am fully aware I'm not the target audience here, I just think that when the actual sport hands you such neatly packaged drama, just... take advantage of what's already there? idk. call me crazy

ignore the bits about the tennis threesome and it's basically the same issue. like I watched most of the matches featured in that series and they didn't even try to capture the stories of these matches!! this feels so basic come on I am begging someone to do this right. 'break point' basically tells me a player lost a set 2-6 and then won a set 6-4 because they tried really hard and believed in themselves. I promise promise promise you can make the actual SPORT more compelling than that. the rhythms of a tennis match are so well-defined and clearly laid out... it should not be so hard to tap into this

compared to that baseline, the motogp shows are... hm... well, they're better than the tennis one for sure. just more watchable. it has admittedly been ages and ages since I've watched motogp unlimited, and I do remember liking some bits. just in terms of like... behind the scenes drama we didn't see at the time. I enjoyed the vinales/yamaha drama, I've obviously professed my love for marc's psycho look at mir, I thought the marc sachsenring segment was pretty well done. I can't... actually massively remember anything else, which is probably an issue in itself. from memory, I feel like a lot of my issues with 'give people a reason to care about the sport' still hold with this one. which tbh really shouldn't be that hard to do with motogp, like they're racing motorcycles, it's inherently conceptually a cool thing to be doing. I'm not a massive fan of 'hitting the apex' - but even though I feel it's a bit too style-over-substance-y, that's exactly what unlimited could have used a bit more of. the opening few minutes of that film where it cuts between the little kid and the motorcycle racers figuring out how to take the fastest line around the circuit... not massively a fan of pitt's narration throughout the film but it works here, I also think the music is doing a lot of good work. the whole thing does just do the job

youtube

like it just makes you feel the sport. I feel there's sometimes a bit too much of a wariness of making these sport shows feature too much of the sport... but if you're trying to make the sport compelling, you will actually have to figure out how to show the sports bit in a compelling way. you're so terrified of losing the casual viewer you're losing sight of what you're making a documentary of - when the whole appeal of a good documentary is to lose yourself in a world you might only be passingly familiar with. HAP leans into this emotional element from the start because it's also just some guys wanking off to the concept of motorcycles going fast, but you do need a little bit of that! the final product is a bit too sentimental and self-congratulatory for my tastes, but again. you need that core of genuine affinity for the sport

I do actually agree with the documentary that the process of taking a corner is what I'd lead with when introducing the sport to the new viewer. the lean angle of the rider and motorcycle is the most immediately striking visual angle - it looks quite jarring if you're unfamiliar with the sport, like the physics shouldn't quite check out. motogp really likes its corners, you've got plenty of specific ones associated with specific historically specific moves - your assen final chicanes, last corner jerez and catalunya, laguna corkscrew, etc etc. the instinctive terror of braking into some of them... mugello's main straight and turn one are infamous for a reason. these are things that easily tap into the character of the sport, but are also easy enough to sprinkle in for the casual viewer. the corner is where most of the overtakes happen, it's moments of direct engagement between riders - which, again, is probably what you want to be focusing on out of the gates. how this has evolved over the years - the contrast between the sport two decades ago and now is so easy to spot even for the layperson, and in large part that's because of how much more excessively they lean now. again, this is just very basic stuff... but as a starting point, surely you've got to try and tap into some of this shit. this is what your first-time viewer will be thinking about anyway when they're watching bikes go around track, so tap into that and explain why it's even more exciting than they think. sometimes motogp also leans in a bit too much for my liking into the whole 'they're gladiators who have broken every bone of their bodies!!' angle... yes, it's an unavoidable reality of the sport, but it makes the whole thing feel quite grim and morose. it's not what I'd lead with, let's but it that way

I'm aware this ask was not asking me to give my thoughts on how I personally would make a motogp documentary series lol. but yeah, idk, motogp unlimited as I remember it was 'reasonably fine but also a bit dull'. if you're already a fan of the sport, it swings between interesting tidbits I'm glad we got to see and telling you a whole lot of things you already knew, without particularly engaging framing and trappings. if you're a newcomer of the sport... I'm not convinced this show sells you on why you should actually care. and, idk if this is a controversial opinion or not, but I personally prefer... ffs what was it called. there can only be one. well first off, change the title - this one's a mouthful and just feels quite generic and half-arsed, which I suppose is appropriate. idk if they're doing it again this year... I thought the second season was a clear step-up from the first so I kind of hope they do. I don't actually think this is 'good' in that I wouldn't really give this to a new viewer and I'm not entirely sure who the target audience was - but it was basically fine for what it was. a glorified highlights package with a few extra behind the scenes tidbits to get you hyped for the new season. I liked the process of whittling down and introducing new title contenders and then the thing of turning off the light when they leave the chair once they're out of contention. it just feels like something that's quite nice to have as a bit of a summary of the season. it's a bit more like what they used to do in the 2010s, where they often made a documentary of the title winner and just a bunch of interviews with them and their team chucked in. the best one of these imo is the very first one they did for jorge in 2010, which includes some lovely childhood jorge footage and that segment where him and his team made it obvious how pissed off they were at valentino's catalunya 2009 celebrations lol, stuff like that. just some nice little details for the narrative!! those provide a bit more insight than the quite surface-level show we have now but... y'know, I don't hate it. fine to accompany you washing the dishes

anyway, yeah. that's my thoughts on both of those. I'm not massively enamoured with any motogp documentaries, though I do appreciate how at least there are a fair few. from the ones that exist, my favourite one is probably marc's all in thingy - had plenty of issues with it, but of its subject at least the issues were sometimes revealing in and of themselves. mostly I do just think the best way to understand the sport is to... go and watch a lot of races. older ones too. which I get is more time-consuming, but quite frankly it does feel like a more rewarding process. sometimes you have to piece together the narratives yourself

#it probably didn't help that I answered this ask with the package of a puzzle entitled 'the world of agatha christie' staring back at me #calling your sports show 'and then there were none' to symbolise how nobody escapes the narrative unscathed #//#brr brr #current tag #batsplat responds #i basically have extended editing notes on the tennis one but that's because that's MY specialist area #idk enough about motogp #icl that HAP opening is leaving me quite cold right now too but ik it has made me feel SOMETHING in the past #and i do think the music's good!! sometimes you really do just need some good music to accompany your footage #this at least the challengers film understood #the edit does absolute wonders for the lorenzo land celebrations too

2 notes · View notes