#except in tpm novel or such but really not that much either

[eliza-makepeace]

You know what's interesting is I don't think the Jedi actually make a big deal about the Chosen One thing in canon. Qui-Gon presents the idea and the Council is skeptical about it, and even Obi-Wan isn't sure. Qui-Gon has been established in canon novels to have had a special interest in prophecy that the other Jedi did not share. The other Jedi believe the future is always in motion and while visions of the future may come to pass, destiny does not supersede personal autonomy and assuming the certainty of a potential future is extremely dangerous— see: Anakin being certain Padmé will die in childbirth with only a dream for evidence, and Padmé ultimately giving birth in extremely fraught circumstances she would not have ended up in if Anakin had taken the dream with a grain of salt.

I don't think we give enough credit to how weird Qui-Gon is supposed to be, because his wise old man routine obscures the fact that he's a wild card. He's the Jedi equivalent of a moon landing truther who believes in astrology. The Jedi don't believe him when he insists the Sith have returned, and their skepticism is by no means unreasonable— the Sith have been extinct in the galaxy for about as long as the Vikings have in the real world. It's much more likely that Maul is a wannabe Sith LARPer or some other dark side wielder rather than the genuine article. A Sith LARPer is still dangerous, of course, and there is a slim possibility that Qui-Gon's actually on the money this time, so they don't brush it off, but send him to investigate. By the end, it's pretty clear that Maul is indeed a Sith.

I think this is what convinces the Council to allow Anakin to be trained. Qui-Gon was right about the Sith, maybe he's right about the Chosen One— maybe. They're not going to do a 180 and take this as a sign of the prophecy's validity; they'll train Anakin like any other Jedi (much as they can considering his background and late start) and if he happens to bring balance to the Force somewhere down the line, fantastic. Yoda initially thinks they're foolish for doing even that much and doesn't believe their assessment of Anakin should change. He could see that it was extremely risky to train Anakin, and he doesn't approve of the Council moving forward with it on the hope that he'll fulfill some prophecy. (Interestingly, Yoda isn't head of the Council at this time— Mace is.)

Throughout the movies, we always hear the prophecy referenced in questions and if terms. The Jedi aren't completely certain that the prophecy will come to pass. Qui-Gon says, "He is the Chosen One," but the other Jedi say, "Is he the Chosen One?" or when they're feeling confident, "Isn't he?" Yoda even posits at one point that if it is real, it might not mean what they think it does. For Anakin's part, I can't remember a time in the films when he brings it up himself. Still, the Mortis arc makes it clear that the prophecy does refer to him. It's just that in Star Wars, prophecies only present one of many possible futures. Obi-Wan's heartbroken lament mourns this reality— instead of bringing balance to the Force, Anakin plunged the galaxy into darkness.

Anakin does ultimately fulfill the prophecy, not because of predetermined destiny, but because of his own choice. He doesn't kill Palpatine to destroy the Sith, he kills him to save his son. He realizes that he's always been able to choose his destiny. He may have been Chosen by the Force to overthrow the Sith, but it was not the Force's choice to make. The dark side represents imbalance; the Force wishes to be balanced. If it were up to the Force, I don't think Order 66 would have been allowed to happen. It was always Anakin's choice to doom the galaxy or save it, much as that choice can fall to one person. I think that's a really interesting subversion of the Chosen One trope

This whole debate about the nature and consequences of the Chosen One in canon is fascinating. I don't exactly know what I think about it, truth be told.

For one, I've seen interviews of George Lucas stating that Anakin is the Chosen One, and there's this strange aspect to him that is fundamentally linked with inevitability. His own name, according to Jett Lucas, is based on the Greek goddess of inevitability, Ananke. George Lucas has said Anakin was always the Chosen One, even as Darth Vader, and he was always supposed to be Darth Vader, and saved by Luke. So there's that. However, I still think it's also Anakin's choice to do it as he did, and he didn't kill Palpatine as the Chosen One, he killed him as a father who wanted to protect his son. So that's an interesting debate, about the degree that Anakin fulfilled his role as the Chosen One because it was prophesized he would or because he chose to (no pun intented).

Granted, the characters don't know that he is it. I think, rather than having doubts about the existence of the Chosen One, the Jedi have issues concerning his role, what that Chosen One might cause. The Force does warn, through a prophecy, that there will be a Chosen One. The question is: what will he do? What will he cause to the world as the Jedi know it? And therefore, will he keep the ideas of the Jedi or obliterate them? That's the question, the fear.

Which brings me back to the Jedi and their consideration of Anakin.

Anakin is a huge problem for a number of reasons, and I think that's the real issue:

1) no one knows what the Chosen One really should do, because "the prophecy could have been misread". The existence of the Chosen One isn't doubted, I think, but their nature, what the prophecy really says about them.

2) no one knows how Anakin as a person will deal with stuff because he has been living as a force sensitive non-jedi for 10 years, is incredibly powerful and has attachments. The Jedi distrust him because he has been raised away from the dogmas and considerations of the Order.

3) His "patron", biggest supporter, and also new attachment, is Qui-Gon Jinn. Aka the guy who isn't in the Council because he moonwalks in and out of the council chamber while telling everyone very nicely that maybe they should reconsider what they're doing. So the Jedi aren't really leaping with joy about him in general.

And the thing is, when Anakin is firstly introduced in front of the Jedi, and gets rejected, it is established that the main reason he's there is because Qui-Gon thinks he's the foretold chosen one. And they still reject him. Anakin suddenly is away from home, taken from his mom, Qui-Gon inadvertently puts a lot of weight on him by saying he's the Chosen One, and the Jedi don't want him. When they finally do allow him to join the Order, it's obvious their initial doubts are still there. The only reason they keep him is because, firstly Qui-Gon insists, and then, he dies and Obi-Wan insists for him. He practically threatens Yoda, "I will train Anakin, without the aproval of the Council, if I must." And because, in case he really is the Chosen One, it's better to keep him where we can see him, just in case. And if he's not, he's still very powerful, so we'll still keep an eye on him.

As for Anakin thinking he's the Chosen One or not, I remember (although I can't really say where I've seen it or which of the many) one interview of Hayden, where he talked about Anakin truly believing he's the Chosen One, and it's that sort of idea that he's a savior that makes him be so obsessed. He needs to save all the people, he just has to. It's his duty. And what kind of a Chosen One, a Hero With No Fear could he be, if he can't save his own mother, or his own wife and child? This isn't really stated in the movies, so obviously we can decide by ourselves whether or not we consider it canon. I myself do, because it clearly affected Hayden's performance to know that, whether or not there was dialogue to support it. But I also believe he believed he was, because, at least when he arrived and joined the Jedi, his being the Chosen One was both what, in general, allowed him to stay, and also kept him away from the other padawans and people around him.

So, yeah... I think there's this flip side of the coin, between Anakin's inevitable role as the Chosen One, and his own choice to be so. I think they're not mutually exclusive.

[padme-amitabha]

I like how in TPM Padme and Anakin start off as friends. Sure, he had a crush on her but it shows that the modern "they hate each other but that's love" is not necessary. Despite what people say, I do think that in TPM, Anakin was Padme's best friend like the bts scenes of them running to each other. It's refreshing to see two kids at two different stages of their lives being besties. Part 1/?

He was the one who cared about Padme not Queen Amidala. A kind 10 year old boy that took them into his home and helped save her planet without asking for anything. Some say Sabe is her best friend, but I don't see it. All characterization of Sabe comes from the novels and the comics, and I don't like her very much. She's very much someone who thinks about Queen Amidala rather than Padme and enjoyed toying with Padme's feelings which is disgusting and despicable. Part 2/?

Sabe didn't even know about Padme's life. If we're talking about the retcons that they have pulled, Dorme should be closest to Padme since she's the handmaiden that stayed with her. Back to my original point, Anakin and Padme were best friends in TPM and they thought of each other often. Padme kept the necklace and wore it as comfort when she felt sad or scared.

“They hate each other but that’s love” is so overused these days ugh. Genuine heartfelt romance over that anyday. 

Yeah, I didn't like Sabe's character in canon either. And even if she had a crush on Padme, her attempts at making her jealous were kinda petty. We already know Padme likes people who are honest and open about their feelings - like Anakin. And I never saw them as really close except being friends maybe. In AOTC, you can see Dorme and Padme being affectionate and worried about each other and she saw her interacting with Anakin so I would say Dorme is the handmaiden closest to her. Plus, she rushed to comfort her after the assassination attempt. Dorme >>>> Sabe

[twilightofthe]

Obi-Wan Kenobi, for the asks?

Thank you!  You always play along with my ask games and I have so much fun doing them!!!  (Ask meme here)

OBI WAN KENOBI

1: sexuality headcanon 

I waver depending on what mood I’m in.  Either I think he’s panromantic/sexual, or I’m in a THE JEDI ARE ARO CULTURE mood so he’s aromantic/pansexual

2: otp 

Definitely Obikin, I fell in love with these two assholes the first time I watched TCW and then I read the really super gay RotS novelization, and then I saw the actual MOVIES and ugh, they’re just soulmates.  They have such an electric dynamic, they work off of each other and they’re funny and they care and they’re the most competent and deadly team in the galaxy and if they wanted to and communicated more there would be literally nothing they couldn’t do together, and it’s frustrating because you know how much they care about each other but they never manage to get on the same level and arghhhhh.  Also I love the tragic lovers-to-enemies trope.  ALSO ALSO OBI WAN HELPED ANAKIN BECOME A FORCE GHOST AND NOW THEY’RE LIVING TOGETHER IN THE AFTERLIFE FOR ETERNITY HECK YEA BOIIIIII

Other Obi Wan ships I have are Obianidala, Obitine, Ventrobi, Quinobi, and Codywan on occasion

3: brotp 

Also him and Anakin lol, but also I really like his dynamic with Cody, so I’m torn!  OBI WAN AND AHSOKA HECK YEAH WE NEEDED MORE OF THEIR ADVENTURES AND INTERACTIONS.  GIVE ME AHSOKA IN THE OBI WAN SHOW OR GIVE ME DEATH.  Fucking ditto for Obes and Padmé, I would have loved to see their friendship that RotS said they had.  I’ve read like two or three or five of the supplementary books so there’s a lot I don’t know, but I like how the fans have written his friendship with Bail.  OH SHIT I TOTALLY FORGOT HIS DYNAMIC WITH QUINLAN ALSO YES THAT PLEASE.  I ALSO also love the fan canon created that Obi Wan grew up with Quinlan and Luminara both being around his age and that the three of them were friends, I think that’s super cute!!!!

4: notp 

Hmmm so like.  I don’t ship bash so pls know these are just what I personally don’t really vibe with, all ships are welcome on this here blog.  Also this is hard because Obes is kinda the fandom’s little black dress we can ship with anyone.  I guess I’d say I’m not a shipper of him with those who he doesn’t really have that much of an interesting dynamic with in canon, or I don’t see a potential dynamic with their personalities, idk?  Like, I never really got into Qui Gon’s character except for him just.  Being there?  In TPM so I never really shipped him and Obes.  Ditto for the Obi Wan and Rex ship that’s popped up and growing popular?  Like, I understand that that particular ship is more about taking two handsome and good guys who deserve happiness and pairing them up so they can be happy together, but idk just, they don’t really interact that much in canon and when they do they’re kinda just... there?  Again?  And yeah, I just don’t really see that much of a spark between them based off of their interactions or their personalities.  Idk, just my two cents.  Again, no offense to those who do ship it!

5: first headcanon that pops into my head 

Obi Wan Kenobi has exactly zero sense of style.  I’m sorry, but he doesn’t.  It’s just his dumb luck that he’s a literal supermodel who would look good in a paper bag.  He doesn’t even know he looks great in red because he says it’s not his color!  He’s more than happy that the standard Jedi tunics were predesigned cuz they’re comfy and in a neutral color and he never has to worry about picking out an outfit, and he does Not like getting dressed up for fancy events because he finds fancy clothing uncomfortable.  The Padawan chop cut he couldn’t help because Qui Gon also has no sense of style, but the mullet he grew out was all him and again, only looks good on him because he’s Obi Wan and he’s gorgeous.  The nicely styled shorter cut he has for TCW and RotS came from him deciding to cut the mullet himself when the war started so it would be easier to maintain, doing an absolutely atrocious job with it.  When he runs to Luminara or Quinlan or whoever in a panic because it looks like a Nexu tried to bite his head off and caught his hair, they take the opportunity and actually give him a decent hairstyle and he figures it looks nice so he’ll keep it.

6: one way in which I relate to this character 

Hmmm this is hard cuz guys Obi Wan is WAY cooler than I am.  I guess we both share a love of languages and linguistics, and we like to teach little kids stuff.  We also both love Anakin to death and would do almost anything for him, even when the little shit’s being a stupid-ass moron who makes awful choices and we really shouldn’t be defending for anything.

7: thing that gives me second hand embarrassment about this character 

FUCKING BALD OBI WAN DURING THE DECEPTION ARC IN SEASON FOUR.  THAT THING SCARRED ME I HATE IT IT’S ATROCIOUS. Also, I... do not like the Kadavo arc, and pretty much every character in it gives me secondhand embarrassment, but I really don’t like his plotline there and it does give me secondhand embarrassment for a variety of reasons.  Also, just-- that moment in RotS when he’s fighting Grievous and decides that kicking the fucking metal cyborg’s leg would be a good idea and then hurts his leg?  I always wince like, my dude, what did you think was gonna happen? xD

8: cinnamon roll or problematic fave?

CINNAMON ROLL!  CINNAMON ROLLLLLLL!!!!!!!  Like yes I know, I know he’s not perfect, he makes a lot of mistakes and has flaws and I love him for those various flaws, but he is a genuinely good and kind CINNAMON ROLL who wants to be a good person and deserves a NAP and a HUG and NICE THINGS and ABSOLUTELY NONE OF ANAKIN’S FUCKING BULLSHIT

[cienie-isengardu]

Hello! I noticed one sad thing - it seems that Anakin wasn't even a hug after his departure from Tatooine? The guy clearly had a strong tactile hunger. I remember Obi-Wan hugging and being hugged, but I don't remember that with Anakin. And becoming Darth Vader... he definitely was touch-starved as hell. All this is unfair... and awful... I really hope that I am wrong and just inattentively read books!

Hi!

Anakin’s approach to touch is kinda complicated thing. On one hand, Shmi and the closest childhood friends were a source of comfort to the boy thus their touch (hugging, holding hands) was welcomed gesture and returned by Anakin. With them, being touched without permission was acceptable, because Skywalker knew they mean no harm to him, that it was a sign of love, friendship, worrying for and a way to reassurance each other in difficult times.

On another hand, Anakin grew up in abusive environment and there is enough sources to give general idea how his life looked then. Including the physical abuse coming from slave masters, like was mentioned in AotC novelization:

[Anakin] wasn’t sure how he would feel about seeing the slaver, even if Watto had nothing to do with bringing any harm to Shmi. Watto had treated him better than most in Mos Espa treated their slaves, and hadn’t beaten him too often […]

Anakin seems to be very open kid in TPM even to strangers, but we must remember that he actually had a chance to observe them in junk shop and talk to Padme (kind, beautiful yet very lost girl) and Jar Jar (clumsy but not dangerous alien) before he decided to be involved with those people for good. The fact that Jinn was Jedi, what Anakin noticed quickly, probably helped a lot too to be open and accepting - and even initiate - touch around them 

Similar like Anakin & Padme’s romance on Naboo, TPM gives us a sense of actually real connection between him and other people - especially Jinn and Padme. They may know each other for a short time, but their relationship was grounded in mutual respect and friendship. Jinn’s touch was consolation for Anakin in uncertain time of his life and main support after leaving Shmi behind.

Growing up in Jedi Order for sure wasn’t the easiest process for Anakin, but as much as Jedi Council (Yoda) made him feel unwelcome, unwanted and different, Jedi Code was strongly against attachment to people and things but did not forbid any physical contact between padawans and Jedi alike. Yet it is easy to see difference between TPM!Anakin and his older version in AotC. Skywalker’s whole body language changed, became more closed off, guarded.He is less likely to physically interact with other people. Obi-Wan (as his long-time master now) and Padme (who he knew before and their familiarity has strengthened again) are understandable exceptions, because both were very important and trusted people in Anakin’s life.

There is no doubt the violence that Anakin experienced in slavery affected him deeply (x). The real question is how much childhood trauma AND the feeling of being different while growing up between Jedi affected Skywalker’s physical isolation and how much he himself cut off from other people:

“Anakin had always been something of an enigma to Jax and the other Padawans. He was nearly the same age as Jax, and they had studied and dueled together often. While it was true that no one could really get close to Anakin - he had always maintained an aloofness, a reserve, that none could penetrate- still, Jax had counted himself as one of the troubled young Jedi’s few confidants.” [Coruscant Night: Jedi Twilight by Michael Reaves]

We may only wonder how much Anakin changed “naturally” and how much it is effect of his loneliness, pressure and difference he felt for years. I personally don’t think Anakin per se needed hugs to feel better. Rather he needed a true friend(s), someone to bond with, someone loyal and accepting. And yes, Obi-Wan is definitely a person that Anakin trusted and respected and whose touch was accepted by him, but his master tried as much as possible to not “touch” Skywalker’s past (and trauma) and the desire “to make Skywalker the best Jedi” often didn’t allow him to act in more affectional way toward his student. To act in a way struggling Anakin needed.

That said, Anakin was always a kind person, willing to show support (physical gestures) when it was possible. He did that for Ahsoka and clone troopers through the war. But it is easy to see how much more guarded he act in AotC and beyond than he did as a kid. That he was less willing to be the one initiating touch, unless he knew well said person (Padme). Frankly, I’m not even sure if he ever hugged Ahsoka, beside the critical moments after some drastic experiences (her dying in Mortis arc, maybe?). Either there were some rules for physical touching between master and padawan or Anakin simply tried to respect Ahsoka’s personal space and allowed himself to touch her (hand on arm usually, if I remember right) when he felt she needed more palpable support.

There was a time when I suspected Anakin may suffer from no physical contact, but now, looking at Anakin from AotC through the whole war, he doesn’t exactly look to me as “touch starved” person. Especially not in the sense of being desperate to have physical contact with others. He just became more private, secretive man, an introvert that always kept in mind showing emotions (attchament) wasn’t wise thing to do around other Jedi. And really, some people (due to trauma or just that type of nature) simply do not like or need that much physical contact with others.

I guess, as introvert myself, I don’t think Anakin wanted that much physical contact, more like needed to hear some recognition from fellow Jedi. Simple you are good enough coming from Council would probably made him feel better than any hug from Yoda or Windu or any Jedi could do.

As for Vader the situation become more complex and much simplier at the same time. To allow someone touch him was unacceptable. Living outside armor was impossible thing at that time - the armor keep him alive and without it, he would die. Without it, the flesh and scars were unprotected, easy to hurt, and as a Sith Lord he can’t allow himself for such weakness. Beside, as much as Anakin missed Padme (and her touch),  what was the point of wishing for any physical contact, if Padme was dead? He loved her and only her, any other person - beside few trusted medics & droids - would never be allowed to touch him ever again.

(Though even as Vader, Anakin was willing to show some support to his troopers and close associates with physical gestures. He wasn’t affraid or beyond attachment to touch people, he just didn’t need any kind gestures from others for himself)

[shadowsong26x]

EPIX/Rise of Skywalker Reaction Post

So, I got back from seeing EPIX this morning, and I figured I should get all my thoughts down!

Everything spoilery is behind a cut, and this post is also tagged with the spoiler tags I’ve listed here. If you want me to add any additional tags, let me know and I will to this and any future EPIX posts.

Okay, so, before I really get into this, I should mention two relevant contextual things that probably strongly impacted my feelings on this movie.

I’m not super-invested in the sequel trilogy. I love (most of) the characters, I’m not really into the story that’s being told with them.

Given where TLJ left us, I went into the theatre expecting something between A Trainwreck with Some Delightful Moments and A Delightful Trainwreck. Basically, it was going to be a Hot Mess and I knew it, but I was pretty sure there was going to be something to love, even if the film as a whole didn’t delight me (which, honestly, is even where I stand with TLJ, which remains my least favorite film of the series). And, you know what? I got exactly that. A Sometimes-Delightful Trainwreck. I’d say it’s even towards the upper end of that Delightfulness scale.

All right, moving on to actual thoughts. I’m trying to focus on the positive here, mostly because I did overall enjoy this movie, but I also had some Problems with it.

I’m gonna talk about Kylo Ren first, mostly because I want to get this out of the way. I will say that--when I first saw TFA, I thought I could be interested in this character. I thought they were gonna maybe go the burnt-out gifted kid route with him, which would be hella interesting to explore for the child of Heroes like Han and Leia, and the Legacy he had to live up to. Obviously, they didn’t, and while the direction they went is certainly topical, it’s not super engaging, at least to me. I know it is to some people, and far be it from me to harsh anyone’s squee, but he basically doesn’t do anything for me. I personally don’t find him particularly interesting or intimidating.

Basically, I don’t particularly care about Kylo Ren. (I don’t know if I’m quite at the point where, as my roommate puts it, I aggressively Do Not Care, but the Not Caring is definitely a thing.)

Anyway, that disclaimer aside--his arc was okay, I guess? I mean...I think my general feelings on the subject are not that it felt phoned-in, exactly, but that it was mostly there because the writers thought it should be there, rather than it flowing organically from the character(s) involved. It also felt rushed, but that goes back to a problem with the movie as a whole that I will get into later in this post. But, given that, the actual beats that were involved in said arc I thought were effectively done. The bit with Han in the wreckage, in particular, was nice.

As for that Kiss though.

...I mean. I’m actually kind of pleased that the end of the film left the romantic threads dangling? It gave me plenty of OT3 feels (though I felt like, especially in the first third or so, the film was leaning more towards Rey/Poe and Finn/Rose, but there was some later stuff that seemed to hint at the full OT3 with a question mark on where Rose stands.)

But I do have a problem with the fact that the only on-screen kiss between Major Characters was between Rey and Kylo Ren/Ben Solo. That being said, I can backfill/justify it in that...you know how some people headcanon that Luke’s initial crush on Leia was some sort of “There is a Connection Here that I Cannot Name and it’s probably supposed to be Romantic given our ages and genders and presumed lack of other relationship so let’s go with that?” Between something like that and the fact that he just gave up his life for her in a very literal way (side note: the Force has always been New Powers as the Plot Demands; but the healing thing was a) if not actually in a canon novel at least strongly implied and b) ALL OVER fanon so even if I had a problem with Random Force Powers suddenly occurring I wouldn’t have an issue with this one; the Force Diad thing was ~handwave plot device~ sure fine whatever). ...anyway, given all of that, I can backfill it to a way where I don’t hate it (i.e., if he’d lived, I don’t think it would’ve been followed up on very much/they would’ve settled into a non-romantic relationship of some kind, whatever that might’ve been). Except that it’s the only one, which kind of leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Then again, he did immediately die, so...yeah, I can live with this. I don’t like it, and I don’t think I ever will like it, but I don’t hate it either and it’s not a dealbreaker for me.

Most of the other problems I have with this film come down to structure and pacing. In that, thanks to where TLJ left us, this move had to do so much to bring the story to any kind of cohesive end, and not enough time to do it in. Trying to squeeze too much plot into too small a space.

(I actually had the same problem with ROTS initially--although that was more due to the PT having pacing issues as its Primary Narrative Flaw; TPM was way too slow; AOTC actually had good internal pacing but couldn’t quite make up for it; and then ROTS was as a consequence of that really rushed. Meanwhile, with the ST, I feel like the writers are relying on “it’s all there in the manual” a little too much, so not really...trying as hard, if that makes sense? To make it all connect within the film, I mean, as opposed to depending on people going into other/outside/supplemental material to connect the dots (still not as bad as the Prisoner of Azkaban movie on that front, but it’s still Bad; and, like, all film versions of novels leave some stuff out, just look at the LOTR films; but POA left out a key plot point and that--is a rant for another post. Back to EPIX). It’ll be interesting to see what kind of deleted scenes come out, or if it’ll grow on me in future watchings. Not that it’ll ever become a favorite, I don’t think, but it might improve in my eyes.)

Anyway, basically, a lot of this felt rushed or like...introduced but not really addressed/wrapped up in any kind of satisfactory fashion? Kylo Ren’s arc in particular, as I’ve mentioned before, plus the Threepio stuff felt rushed and non-consequential, and also with Rey’s arc to an extent (it...again, all the beats worked for me/I thought it was fairly effective, but it really needed two movies to pay off as well as it could have). ...I mean, there are more plot threads I could probably mention here, but those are the three that stuck out the most.

Also, this movie needed More Rose :( I LOVE HER and she was barely here!!!!!

Another thing I would’ve liked to see is...okay, I really liked the Overlapping Voices bit, but it would’ve been nice to have more Presence from the ghosts? Like...there’s a bit at the end of season 1 of Sailor Moon where she’s in the Final Battle, the other four have died (or just been left behind, if you’re watching the English dub), and their ghosts show up and place their hands on hers and lend her their strength? A visual cue like that would’ve been great and helped the arc feel more complete. Especially since Palpatine had all of his predecessors/Sith ghosts backing him in a more visible fashion. But, then again, that’s a Personal Taste thing and while it would’ve, IMO, made that moment better, not having it doesn’t make it worse, if that makes sense?

(Also, the credits moved too fast for me to track, but I definitely saw Qui-Gon Jinn listed, though I don’t recall hearing him, and I definitely recognized Anakin/Hayden Christensen and Mace/Samuel L. Jackson and Obi-Wan/Ewan McGreggor (and Alec Guinness I’m pretty sure?) and obvs. Yoda/Frank Oz when actually listening, but I couldn’t identify the other voices--anyone have the full list? Was Ahsoka and/or Kanan and/or Ezra involved, or was it restricted to movie-only Jedi?)

But...yeah. Apart from the Kiss being very ....:/ for me, most of my identifiable problems with the film is stuff like this.

I think the other thing I want to talk about in detail is the Rey Palpatine reveal.

So, up until this movie, I was actually in my corner flying my tiny but determined Rey Kenobi flag, and the more I think about it, the more I like Rey Palpatine for some of the same reasons? Like...I don’t remember everything I’d thought through about Rey Kenobi, but it had to do with the cyclical nature of Star Wars, and bringing it back where it started--and we get that with Rey Palpatine, in a nice arc, healing some of the damage her grandfather did, both to this family and to the galaxy as a whole.

That being said--those of you who know me and my fic projects know I’ve been writing a child (daughter) for Palpatine for quite some time now, and I have no intention of stopping, lol. Am I going to take this/Lavinia’s (presumably) half-brother into account in future projects? ...probably not. But I am looking forward to/hoping we get a novel or something about him and Rey’s mother. Because that is actually a story I’m interested in--why canon!Palpatine chose to have a kid, and how said kid managed to break away and got to this point. [...y’know, I actually think Rey Kenobi’s background/thread of descent would be less interesting to me? Since I subscribe to the idea that a) Korkie Kryze is Obi-Wan’s biological son; and b) Obi-Wan had many Friends With Benefits throughout the galaxy and figuring out exactly which one Rey descends from carries less weight for me.]

...okay, I think that’s all the Detaily Bits I want to get into, so here are some bullet points of things that really stuck out to me, in no particular order:

Bawled like a baby re: everything involving Carrie Fisher. Just...yeah. Miss you Space Mommy.

LANDO! I loved his entrance, I loved him adopting Jannah at the end, I loved all of it.

Chewie’s fake-out death was also actually pretty good/well-handled. I mean. First Boom happens and I’m like DDDDDDD: but then I remember how people reacted to his death in Legends and I’m like would they really do it and then DELIGHT.

HUX. Okay. I never really cared about this dude before, and honestly I still don’t really care about this dude but at the same time, those of you who know me know I have a Thing for double-agents and defectors and I LOVE THIS WHOLE ENTIRE PLOT THREAD. I LOVE THIS SHITHEAD TURNING TRAITOR FOR THE MOST VENAL REASONS AND STILL BEING A BAD GUY/EVIL/AN UNREPENTANT JACKASS. THIS WAS PERFECT.

(Also Finn shooting him in the leg instead of the arm as requested was DELIGHTFUL)

SPEAKING OF DELIGHTFUL gotta love Zombie Skeev Palpatine Unliving His Best Afterlife. Was he as Delightful as he is in ROTS or ROTJ? No. Did I still enjoy every minute of his scenery-chewing nonsense? You bet your ass. So happy, Ian McDiarmid looked like he was having tons of fun and honestly what more could I have asked for?

The whole scene on Ahch-To was just *chef’s kiss.* Use of Yoda’s theme with the rising X-Wing, Luke being snarky and kind and beautiful, him emerging from the fire with the saber...just loved it.

LEIA HAD JEDI TRAINING AND HER OWN LIGHTSABER. BB!MARK HAMILL AND BB!CARRIE FISHER’S FACES.

LEIA TRAINING REY. REY CALLING HER ‘MASTER.’

USING THE BOND TO ARM KYLO REN okay like I said I have Mixed Feelings about the arc as a whole but that moment was SO COOL.

Poe’s ex-girlfriend was pretty great, ngl.

JANNAH AND EX-STORMTROOPERS YESSSSSSSS

HINTS OF/SHREDS OF EVIDENCE FOR FORCE-SENSITIVE FINN GIVE THEM TO ME NOW.

D-0 was pretty cute!

All of the Badass Finn.

Also that MOMENT where Finn runs up to Poe like “I NEED TO TELL YOU A THING” and Poe is all “I NEED YOU TO FIGHT WITH ME” and Finn just interrupts himself to thank Poe and they have that “General” “General” moment and it’s SO CUTE I’m love it.

The entire thing at the Lars farm at the end. Just. Burying the lightsabers, seeing the twins’ ghosts, claiming the Skywalker name, Rey having her own saber now. This movie was a Hot Mess but it definitely ended on a high note.

...that’s pretty much what I have for right now. I will probably have more thoughts after discussing it with other people/seeing it again (because I will be seeing it again). But overall...do I like it? Well, it’s Star Wars, which I love and which frankly always has some Super Dumb and/or Frustrating Stuff, and the things I disliked weren’t bad enough to Ruin It for me, so yes, I liked it. Is it my favorite Star Wars/good for a Star Wars movie? ...not really, no. It did have some gorgeous moments, but it doesn’t really hang together. Like the rest of the ST, it relies way too much on It’s All There In The Manual and, between that and the fact that TLJ didn’t do the work necessary to set it up, the movie felt rushed and a little bit...I don’t want to say hollow, maybe shallow is a better word? I mean, I know this is Star Wars and It’s Not That Deep (but the ground is soft and I’m ready to dig or however the quote goes), but this felt particularly shallow even for Star Wars. Like...cotton candy, fairly good/tasty but a little bit prone to melting away and with very little substance holding it together. On that level, I’d actually probably rank it around Solo (which, let me say, I really like)--so, better than TLJ, but still A Hot Mess of a movie. But I enjoyed myself, and I think overall my feelings are middling-to-positive on it. Even if...honestly, even like less than four hours after the movie ending, I’m already forgetting like half the plot points...? Like I said. Cotton Candy.

What did/do you guys think?

[independence1776]

Master and Apprentice by Claudia Gray review

This is a bit of a coincidence with my posting this review today, but it's certainly apropos: twenty years ago today, The Phantom Menace had its US theatrical release.

First off, this is not an unbiased review. It's about as biased as you can get for two reasons:

I wholeheartedly love the Jedi Order.

I've had a crush on Qui-Gon for twenty years.

That said, on to the review. Cut for serious spoilers. Possibly a bit more on the meta side in parts than outright book review.

My overall thoughts: it's a solid, enjoyable book. I have a few minor quibbles with it and two major ones (one out-of-universe, one in-universe), but it's good enough I'll likely buy it when it's released in paperback. So of course, the quibbles take up more room than the good things. *rolls eyes at self*

Good Things

~ The characterization of Qui-Gon is excellent: he's the perfect mix of "that makes sense" and "I want to shake some sense into him."

~ Obi-Wan is bit less so, though I do think he's more or less in line with how he is in TPM.

~ Jedi Temple worldbuilding: gardens, mediation rooms, a meditation path/maze, aquatic levels, areas specifically for Padawans with no Masters allowed (which likely means there are Master-only areas), everyone not living in the creche has their own room, etc. And the best thing: it's another nail in the coffin of the Legends Jedi Apprentice books where if you don't have a Master by age thirteen, you're kicked out of the Order. This book explicitly says that thirteen is young to become a Padawan. (These details are, uh, a significant factor in why I want the book. I did mention I love the Jedi, didn't I? :P)

~ The Jedi Council asks Qui-Gon to join it specifically because they want his unorthodox viewpoint.

~ Dooku left the Jedi years before Qui-Gon died! No one knows why, either. But he was already starting to fall while he was training Qui-Gon; he's heavily implied to use Force lightning at one point (as in: the only reason I can't say states is that Qui-Gon didn't see the Force lightning itself).

~ The main plot is an action-adventure plot that probably a little more convoluted than it needs to be given the climax and resolution could easily have been another chapter, but the book seemed to run out of page room first. The middle drags a little, too. Overall, that aspect makes me go: "Self, you're never going to be hired to write a Star Wars novel; you just can't manage action/adventure plots of any length."

The subplot is not as much fun; it's very much a miscommunication novel where people don't make the effort to talk to each other even though they know there are communication problems. On the other hand, that makes complete sense given how those two do and don't communicate in TPM, so clear communication would have been somewhat out of character to me.

~ I really like Rael Averross and want to see more of him. He's a great example of a somewhat non-traditional Jedi… and how coming late into the Order (he was five) can be a problem. And it's not like the Jedi don't try to help him adjust; the text says they made leniencies for him but he was determined to stand out.

Minor Quibbles

~ There were a couple of worldbuilding details that make no sense if you spend more time thinking about them than on a surface level. One of these is that it doesn't seem that it's standard practice to teach Jedi younglings how to swim! This despite 1) their missions drop the Jedi all over the galaxy in all environments and 2) this book establishes that there are aquatic levels in the Temple for amphibious/aquatic species.

~ My quibble with Obi-Wan's characterization is that the book makes a point of showing over and over how much he loves flying… until the very end when a bad experience with an autopiloted ship turns him off flying. That makes no sense given that he thinks droids should be pilots. It feels a bit like the author tossed in the "loves flying" angle as a deliberate twist on expectations without doing the work to support it.

~ Prophecies… I roll my eyes at them in general. I knew it was a factor in the book because Qui-Gon (and the blurb), but that element was not much to my taste overall. Welcome to one of the reasons I kept wanting to shake Qui-Gon.

~ The male secondary lead character is very much of a "logic wins the day; emotion is bad" type who gets the girl after he realized emotions are a good thing when her capture makes him confront his feelings for her. Tiresome trope at best. I know there are parallels between him and Rael (Pax was raised by protocol droids from the age of five, which is why he is how he is; that's the age Rael entered the Order and had problems because of it), but Pax was simply annoying.

~ The climax of the book is a little muddled, not in the action sense, but the thematic sense. And why ties into what I'll rant-meta about below. It also wraps up in a couple of pages of "hey, actually, due to XYZ, everything turns out okay after all" kind of storytelling that I'm growing more and more annoyed by.

Major Quibbles

Okay, so here comes the meta.

~ Quibble 1: the book takes place quite a few years before TPM, when Obi-Wan is seventeen. Apart from a thematic connection of prophecy aka Anakin the Chosen One, there is no reason the epilogue should be set moments before Qui-Gon's funeral in TPM. This wouldn't bother me so much except that it might be the beginning of a pattern; the Padmé-and-handmaidens YA novel Queen's Shadow epilogue is set after Padmé's funeral despite the story itself ending after her first year in the Senate.

Either one on its own would have been an "okay, this is how you chose to end the story" moment. Together, they become, "Actually, forget about a happy ending; we have to remind you these characters are dead." That's… not what I want from EU novels set years before the characters die. Can we not have moments of triumph untainted?

~ Quibble 2: Until now, what I've read of the new EU was pretty consistent in avoiding the attachment = love misinterpretation of the Jedi's "no attachment" rule. And I am flatly sure that this is a misinterpretation.

Reason 1: George Lucas explicitly stated that attachment is not love; that love is fine for a Jedi; it's obsession that's the problem. Also that Jedi aren't celibate, which this novel also contradicts. I know I'm in a minority when it comes to word-of-god stuff (especially because I don't enjoy actor/director/whatever interviews and behind-the-scenes material so don't watch or pay attention to it outside of this), but I come from a fandom where word-of-god and canon-compliance/knowledge is important. In this instance, I do think what Lucas says about the Jedi, as their original creator, is vital to understanding them. I just wish he'd been a better scriptwriter so this distinction between attachment and love would have been clear in the movies.

Reason 2: The Prequel Trilogy itself shows Jedi caring for each other (when Qui-Gon is dying and Obi-Wan is really emotional), Obi-Wan telling Anakin that he considers Anakin to be his brother and that he loves him (end of Mustafar battle), and those are just the first two scenes off the top of my head. Plus, there's Luke redeeming Vader through love. Caring and love are not attachment.

(Also, what would that mean for Kanan/Hera in Rebels S4? Kanan is a Jedi. If attachment was love, he wouldn't have been in a relationship with Hera. But he was able to put others above his life despite that he would have rather lived and that's what a healthy relationship is for a Jedi, not putting his own desires first. The opposite is why Anakin fell.)

But this confusion about attachment/love is why the climax is muddled: it really only makes sense viewed through that prism. Yes, Rael loved Fanry… but that wasn't his problem. His problem was his attachment to his belief that he knew Fanry and was working for her when her own desires (bad ones, as it happens) were actually quite different; Rael was unwilling to see what he didn't want to.

In Conclusion

Despite the flaws, this novel is in my top three new EU books; the other two are Star Wars: Propaganda and A New Dawn. It's definitely the top EU novel I've read so far. I love being able to see Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan again.

[gffa]

your posts about the comics just reminded me of something that's been at the back of my head for a while: how do you view anakin's and obi-wan's relationship as padawan and master? i've seen people argue that it holds abusive elements since obi-wan (as an extension of the jedi council) doesn't help anakin with his trauma (or plays a part in fortifying it? possibly by things like making him call him master) and brushes his worries about the nightmares aside in aotc. (1/2)

i’m not really convinced by the latter since the movie doesn’t show any context for it, but i’d like to hear your thoughts about it. i’m really not prone to putting any blame on obi-wan personally or especially but he’s my favourite character and i tend to overlook his flaws :D (2/2)

THIS IS PROBABLY GOING TO BE LONG, sorry not sorry etc.  :D  I’m going to stick to a gen interpretation on them in this post (and, as always, I have no problem with people who are squicked by them as a pairing for whatever reasons!) and, while I haven’t read much at all in this line of commentary (nor do I care to), I have thoughts on the points you mentioned!During Attack of the Clones, our establishing shot of them, the one that tells us who these characters are now and how they relate to each other, ten years down the road from The Phantom Menace, is one of two people teasing each other and making each other laugh.  Obi-Wan sees that Anakin is nervous and so he makes a joke that’s very obviously something he wouldn’t misremember as a way to jolt Anakin out of his spiraling thoughts, he puts the weight of the joke on himself.  When they’re talking with Padme, Anakin is behaving like an absolute brat, he’s overstepping their authority, he’s promising things that aren’t theirs to promise, he’s acting up and actively disrespecting his teacher to impress someone rather than actually thinking things through.  And Obi-Wan doesn’t dress him down, he pretty much just gives him a WE WILL TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE CAR (TM @forcearama) response.We see that Anakin is getting ahead of himself–he says he can sense everything that’s going on in Padme’s bedroom, except he doesn’t.  The assassin centipedes are already crawling around and it’s not until a bit later that Anakin senses them.  The whole point is that Anakin is working himself into a state in an attempt to impress Padme and Obi-Wan is telling him to get ahold of himself–and then, afterwards, leans in and smiles, telling Anakin (who is upset that Padme doesn’t seem to see him in the same way he sees her), “She was pleased to see us.” to cheer Anakin up.We see, during the Obi-Wan & Anakin comic that Anakin is absolutely smitten with Obi-Wan, HE’S THE BEST is literally a thing Anakin says this close to having actual stars in his eyes.  Obi-Wan listens to Anakin, he takes his upcoming decision seriously, makes it clear that he’ll respect Anakin’s choice whichever way, even as he continues to help guide him.  We see that Obi-Wan is dedicated enough to Anakin that he would leave the Jedi Order with Anakin, if that’s what was necessary.  We see even through The Clone Wars that Obi-Wan gives Anakin his space, lets him be as independent as he can, but that Anakin still wants to go running to him, still calls him Master half of the time, showing us just how much Anakin still values that guidance, still values Obi-Wan’s presence in his life.

Back to Attack of the Clones, Anakin tells Obi-Wan NOTHING of his dreams other than that he’s having dreams.  He doesn’t say if they’re bad dreams (if they even were at this point, Anakin doesn’t look panicked, just wistful and like he misses her–the AOTC novelization said they were nightmares, but that was never from George), and Obi-Wan’s tone and face are deeply caring.  If this were any other situation, his advice would be right, especially for someone who is on the cusp of Knighthood, who would have entirely valid reasons to be dreaming things that he has issues with when he’s about to take a bit step forward in his independence.  It would really make sense if Obi-Wan was speaking from a place about his own dreams of Qui-Gon, which did pass in time, as they’re meant to.Further, we don’t have any context for what the Jedi did or didn’t do in regards to Anakin’s trauma.  We don’t even know when they found out about Anakin’s past, because we never see Qui-Gon tell them where Anakin came from (and Obi-Wan wasn’t there and he never mentions it later, despite that it would be a really good thing to bring up for why this is a bad idea of Qui-Gon’s, to try to get Anakin to be a Jedi) and nothing they say says they for sure knew.  And Anakin himself likely wouldn’t speak up about it, fearing that it would damage his chances in the eyes of his new caretakers–whether he’s right or not about that (and that’s a separate discussion, whether Anakin was a good fit for being a Jedi or not, it doesn’t make him bad if he’s not, just that it’s not the right path for him personally).Here’s the thing, though:  We see some pretty clear examples that Anakin refuses help.  Even setting aside the times in Legends where Obi-Wan did try to talk to him about it, we see Padme in Revenge of the Sith say that they should talk to Obi-Wan about this and Anakin shuts it down hard.  We see that he knows he shouldn’t want more, but he does and it’s because he does not want to change his mindset.  Someone who does not want to talk about these things (even with Padme! he doesn’t even seem to want to talk about the future of their baby, he avoids the subject at every turn, either not answering or changing topics, she is the one making plans) and someone who doesn’t think their mindset is wrong is a lot less likely to get help out of therapy (fandom’s often go-to suggestion for What Anakin Skywalker Needed) than someone who wants to change.  And I have tried getting people into therapy who don’t want to be there and it is not some magical fix it.  It only helps if you want it to help.Also as a side-note, nowhere in Immovable Objects of Star Wars History can I find an example of Anakin calling a slave owner “Master”.  That’s come up a few times in Legends (because people just automatically assume all slavery must follow a 1:1 relationship with US history’s chattel slavery) but never in canon itself as far as I’ve seen.  Anakin expresses no distaste at calling someone “Master” as any sort of indication that it has any negative associations. Is it something fans can play with?  Obviously!  And I have issues with the way slavery is presented in TPM, don’t get me wrong.  But “Master” is only ever used in the sense of a person with a highly developed skill/set of skills.  (eta: To clarify, because I worry some people need it, that does not negate that it was traumatic for Anakin or an absolutely horrifying thing, especially for a child!  But it’s still presented/not presented in specific ways.)But I’m getting side-tracked away from Obi-Wan and Anakin’s relationship.  Yes, they have conflict and issues, but both AOTC and ROTS set up their first scenes as ones that show us how much these two like each other, how much they care about each other, how well they work together.  Obi-Wan and Anakin laughing in the elevator, the kind words Obi-Wan has for him.  Obi-Wan and Anakin fighting together above Coruscant, their fighters MOVE IN SYNC with each other, Anakin refuses to leave Obi-Wan twice in the first half hour, Obi-Wan smiles at him, they bicker like old friends, they have their own special hand-signals.  The entire emotional climax is on their fight, which wouldn’t have any meaning if they didn’t love each other.  It wouldn’t mean anything if their relationship was awful and abusive and terrible in the first place.I’m not saying that Obi-Wan and Anakin’s relationship was perfect.  I do think Obi-Wan’s faith and belief in Anakin blinded him to the true depth of the cracks in his foundation–”He will not let me down.  He never has,” Obi-Wan says, absolutely believing this.  He believes in Anakin’s ability to come through, he shows that every time he puts his life in Anakin’s hands, trusts him to be there when Obi-Wan needs him to show up, that Anakin would never turn to the dark side, because he sees such good and brilliance and wonderfulness in Anakin.  He loves Anakin so much that he cannot see the truth about him.Anakin, in turn, cannot trust what Obi-Wan gives him, he cannot accept that Obi-Wan’s care and love for him are true, unless Obi-Wan’s practically shouting it from the rooftops.  Anakin is a bucket with a hole in the bottom, all that love and praise fills him up and then drains out again by the next day, so he needs more.  Even Padme constantly pouring love into him wasn’t enough to keep Anakin from believing that she’d betrayed him and turned on him, nothing was ever going to be enough for Anakin, and the war emotionally ground them all down and was designed to put strain on their relationship (literally on their relationship because Palpatine wanted Anakin’s relationships with both Obi-Wan and Padme brittle, because he had to whittle down those relationships or Anakin would never fall).But the whole reason we’re invested in it is because they loved each other, because they were so good together.  Because no one else could have done as well as Obi-Wan did with Anakin (I WILL FIGHT THE INTERNET ON THIS), Anakin would never have loved anyone as much as he loved Obi-Wan.  And what we do see of them in canon is littered with Obi-Wan thinking of Anakin and doing kind things for him, checking in on him, offering him support, telling Anakin that he’s proud of him, not taking another Padawan because his previous one still needs him.No relationship in Star Wars is perfect, it wouldn’t be an interesting story without conflict!  They make mistakes, they’re human, and often times they’re in a war that leaves them with little emotional reserves or they’re manipulated into positions where they have to make really shit choices.But they were so good together and there’s dozens of little moments to show the genuine care there, how genuinely good they were for each other, how they made each other better.

[padawanlost]

hi there - i have recently gotten into the SW fandom, and now naturally can’t stop myself from writing a bit of fic. since i haven’t read a lot of the source material, i was just wondering what you think about the holonet and the fame that Anakin and Obi-Wan apparently enjoyed during the Clone Wars. was this a calculated maneuver on Palpatine’s part? propaganda for the war effort? Or was it just a consequence of the war/highly visible actions that the pair takes? would the Order have supported or been wary of the publicity? 

ps i really enjoy all of your meta & analyses. they helped inspire me :p

hello :) Welcome to the Star Wars fandom!!!!

First of all, don’t worry about not being into the EU. A lot of fans don’t go down that rabbit hole.  At this point, most of it is not even canon (OT and PT Eras, of course) and every fan has their own definition of what is “canon” anyway.

The Holonet Popularity Theory

There are fans who believe Anakin was as popular as Matthew Stover described in the ROTS novelization. I think he was the one who started this idea that the Jedi (especially Anakin and the rest of the Council) were viewed as the absolute heroes of the entire galaxy. Several authors have mentioned Anakin and Obi-wan being recognizable in certain areas of the Galaxy, but nothing quite like what Stover described.

Anakin and Obi-Wan. Kenobi and Skywalker. From the beginning of the Clone Wars, the phrase Kenobi and Skywalker has become a single word. They are everywhere. HoloNet features of their operations against the Separatist enemy have made them the most famous Jedi in the galaxy.

 Younglings across the galaxy know their names, know everything about them, follow their exploits as though they are sports heroes instead of warriors in a desperate battle to save civilization. Even grown-ups are not immune; it’s not uncommon for an exasperated parent to ask, when faced with offspring who have just tried to pull off one of the spectacularly dangerous bits of foolishness that are the stock-in-trade of high-spirited younglings everywhere, So which were you supposed to be, Kenobi or Skywalker? [Rots Novelization by Matthew Stover]

 Though I love Stover writing in this book, I believe he exaggerated their popularity a bit. The Galaxy is large and we have plenty of evidences of worlds and societies somewhat removed from the Core politics and trends (Tatooine, Lanteeb, Iego etc.). Look at Tatooine, even when the Jedi were at their peak they were still viewed as a myth by the common people. Anakin didn’t even know what a Jedi was until a traveler told him about working with one, and that  only was a few weeks before TPM.

The Jedi had a large presence in the Outer Rim but we can’t forget the Outer Rim was the location of the most corrupt, violent, disadvantaged and neglect planets in the Galaxy. Hardly the perfect environment for reliable information. People were more concerned with surviving them with the Holonet. And that’s if they even had access to the Holonet, because if the cost of sending a short message from Tatooine to Coruscant in times of peace cost Shmi more than all her savings I wonder how much access to Holonet would cost during the war. Not unlike our world, the galaxy was run by companies and if those companies didn’t care enough to provide affordable access before, I doubt they would do it during the war.

I think the Jedi hero status was something more common in planets like Naboo, Coruscant and Alderaan. Planets that had no reason to hate or distrust the Jedi because they were always helped by them.

The Holonet vs Palpatine

Was Palpatine manipulating the Holonet? Yes. You can’t have absolute control if you don’t control the media.

I don’t think it was ever stated that Palpatine directly controlled the Holonet. But, imo, it’s pretty obvious he did (at least, indirectly). He didn’t control it by saying “hey, make up anti-Jedi propaganda”. He did it by manipulating the Jedi into doing what he needed them to do to make them look bad (like their deal with Jabba). He did by leaking sensitive information. By sending Anakin to the right missions, at the right time to make sure he would look like a hero. He openly praised Anakin at every change he got, he chastised the Jedi for their fuckups in public, etc.

“Skywalker’s arm makes him, for our purposes, even better. It is the permanent symbol of the sacrifices he has made in the name of peace and justice. It is a badge of heroism that he must publicly wear for the rest of his life; no one can ever look at him and doubt his honor, his courage, his integrity. He is perfect, just as he is. Perfect. The only question that remains is whether he is capable of transcending the artificial limitations of his Jedi indoctrination. And that, my lord Count, is precisely what today’s operation is designed to discover.” [Palpatine in the Rots Novelization by Matthew Stover]

Dooku derived a certain melancholy satisfaction—a pleasurably lonely contemplation of his own unrecognized greatness—from a brief reflection that Skywalker would never understand how much thought and planning, how much work, Lord Sidious had invested in so hastily orchestrating his sham victory.  [Dooku in the Rots Novelization by Matthew Stover]

We have a duty to the Republic. Both of us—but yours is now so much more important. You are the face of the Jedi, Anakin. Even after these years of war, many people still love the Jedi, and it’s mostly because they love you, do you understand that? They love the story of you. You’re like something out of a bedtime tale, the secret prince, hidden among the peasants, growing up without ever a clue of his special destiny—except for you it’s all true. Sometimes I think that the only reason the people of the Republic still believe we can win the war is because you’re fighting it for them—” [Padmé in the Rots Novelization by Matthew Stover]

I always got from these particular moments is that Palpatine worked very hard to maintain Anakin’s positive imagine with the people even when he was working hard to discredit the Jedi behind the scenes (there’s a whole theory about why he’d do that, because let’s not get into that now).

Beings believe what you tell them. They never check, they never ask, they never think. Tell them the state is menaced by quadrillions of battle droids, and they will not count. Tell them you can save them, and they will never ask—from what, from whom? Just say tyranny, oppression, vague bogeymen that require no analysis. Never specify. Then they look the other way when reality is right in front of them. It’s a conjuring trick. The key is distraction, getting them to watch your other hand. Only single-minded beings don’t join in the shared illusion, and keep watching you too closely. Single-minded beings are dangerous. And they either work for me, or they don’t work at all.“ Palpatine in Republic Commando: Order 66 by Karen Traviss.

 Palpatine is a master manipulator that has pathological need to control everything and everyone. So why wouldn’t he control the Holonet? It’s the perfect way to achieve his goals and control public opinion.

Not only he manipulated the Holonet, he did it so well that even after his death people kept on fighting to protect his “legacy”.

PS: THANK YOU <3<3<3

[padme-amitabha]

Is Anakin and Vader the same person?

I think I have talked about this before but I’ll reiterate the main points.

Of course they are the same person at different points in life. I don’t choose to follow Disney’s interpretation of anything about Star Wars. They hire writers and pay them to write their own fanfiction and interpretation and it’s far from George’s vision so I don’t see any reason to. Only 1-6 movies are canon to me with few exceptions such as 2003 Clone Wars and a few legends material but I’ll always put more emphasis on the movies.

Now from Revenge of the Sith movie we see Anakin become Vader (and by that I mean undergoing a surgery and being put into the suit). While the mask is being lowered we can see the fear in his eyes and his face is still recognizable. Fast forward 23 years and there’s no reason to believe he’s a different person. The only time he talks about his name is when Luke brings it up and he says “that name no longer has any meaning for me” not “I destroyed Anakin” or something similar to that. He is completely right because obviously it doesn’t hold any meaning for him - everyone who called him and knew him by that name (Shmi, Obi-Wan and Padmé) were all dead and his master called him Vader. And he had gotten used to the name in over two decades. Also, Palpatine probably preferred that he distance himself from his past hence referring to Luke as “the offspring of Anakin Skywalker.” Vader wasn’t a personality; it was just a new name he went by and since the mention of his real name brought back unpleasant memories he tried not to think of himself as the same person as a coping mechanism. This is why Vader tells Luke it’s too late for him to redeem himself - because he knows he commited some terrible deeds and hurt his loved ones and he can’t ever take that back. If he wasn’t Anakin, he wouldn’t feel that guilt or remorse for Anakin’s wife and mentor.

It’s the same as Padmé in TPM really - we see Padmé first as Queen Amidala who is a regal authoritative figure and then we see her true self when she’s in disguise.

Anakin winced, then quickly picked up another holograph, this one showing Padmé a couple of years later, wearing official robes and standing between two older and similarly robed Legislators. He looked back at the first holo, then to this one, noting that Padmé’s expression seemed much more severe here. “My first day as an Apprentice Legislator,” Padmé explained.

Then, as if she was reading his mind, she added, “See the difference?” Anakin studied the holograph a moment longer, then looked up and laughed, seeing Padmé wearing that same long and stern expression. She laughed as well, then squeezed his shoulder and went back to her packing.

Anakin put the holographs down side by side and looked at them for a long, long time. Two sides of the woman he loved.

This is from the AOTC novelization and this can be applied to Anakin as well. (More about similarities between Darth Vader and Queen Amidala in this post.) Just like Queen Amidala is really Padmé Naberrie, in the same way Darth Vader is really just Anakin Skywalker.

The reason why he has a different demeanor in OT is mostly due to his age and because he had years to adapt to his new persona. Vader in ROTS didn’t immediately become all stoic and impassive - he got very emotional on hearing Padmé’s death just like he would as Anakin. Vader isn’t some kind of demon possessing Anakin - Vader is Anakin after he has lost everything and he isn’t holding back as he did as a Jedi. It sounds very poetic to state both Anakin and Padmé died on the same day but Anakin truly didn’t though. Anakin lived on for years and died a redeemed man on the death star. The ROTS novelization supports this and it was approved by Lucas so it’s authentic to me.

And there is one blazing moment in which you finally understand that there was no dragon. That there was no Vader. That there was only you. Only Anakin Skywalker.

That it was all you. Is you.

Only you.

You did it.

You killed her.

You killed her because, finally, when you could have saved her, when you could have gone away with her, when you could have been thinking about her, you were thinking about yourself …

I do think it was Anakin who choked Padmé on Mustafar even though some people like to blame it on “Vader”. Anakin was unhinged on Mustafar but even in the beginning of ROTS, he was beginning to show some aggression. Though people complain the first part of ROTS is slow and too much happens in the latter half and he falls too suddenly, that’s not the case. This moment has been building up from the very first movie to the first half of ROTS. The fall isn’t just that one action of attacking Mace Windu, he was gradually falling to the dark side for years starting from his mother’s death and he only made the actual decision in the rumination scene. That’s when he finally sheds a tear and makes the conscious decision to join the dark side.

For the record, I think conflict has always been a part of Anakin Skywalker. The prequels portray him in a negative light, particularly in the last two films. Anakin in the movies is a very, very flawed individual and even meant to be unlikable at times. He struggles with his emotions, he struggles to communicate with others and he struggle to fit in the order. I wouldn’t say he was mentally stable either - he could be unpredictable and his actions depend on his mood. But the movies also show the good aspects of him, especially about people he cared about. He even starts off as a kid with a good heart. The conflict and his flaws cause him to fall to the dark side and his good qualities (like selflessness and loyalty when it comes to family) ultimately redeem him. 

So I don’t think “Anakin” was the good side of him and “Vader” was the dark side. Vader is Anakin after he has lost everything he cared about and since he is not a Jedi anymore he is no longer required to hold back on anything. Ambition and desire to rule the galaxy is often associated with “Vader” but I think people forget Anakin was just as ambitious and in ROTS being denied the rank of Master deeply upsets him and increases his resentment towards the Jedi. He admitted that he wanted more in ROTS even though he knows he shouldn’t. He also told Padmé in AOTC that he would prefer dictatorship over democracy so it’s not like his ideals changed either. Vader until he discovered he had a son had no interest in ruling the galaxy. Later on he essentially offered Luke the same choice he gave Padmé on Mustafar. From the conversation in AOTC, it seems he’s more dissatisfied with the system and being from a lawless and harsh world he sees dictatorship as the solution. While he doesn’t want to actively take part in it, he wants to enforce the system which is exactly what he does later on (and perhaps he preferred leaving the actual ruling bit to Padmé or Luke). I don’t see Vader as “evil” - I mean the only times he killed people were for failure and he did keep Admiral Piett alive since he proved to be competent. Vader in OT (when Luke isn’t concerned) is just doing his job and punishing inefficient people who aren’t letting him do his job. He only serves the emperor and does his bidding. After Luke rejects his offer, Vader still plans to seek him out but in ROTJ his resolve definitely grew weaker and it’s more like he’s imploring him to reconsider than being forceful. 

Anakin as we have seen in AOTC is very much capable of mass murder (and confessed that he felt they deserved it) so should he really be defined as the good side? You could even argue as Vader he killed people for legitimate reasons whereas Anakin killed defenseless people when he was blinded by rage. And even in ROTS he kills Dooku as revenge. I’m not saying Anakin is evil (that would be grossly oversimplying things); I am saying he was a complex character. The reason why he turned out the way he is has already been explored in the prequels but I also believe it’s a combination of nature and nurture. Anakin as a child has a good heart, wants to help others and free the slaves but in TPM script/novelization he lashes out at a Rodian who claims he won the race by cheating, meaning he didn’t handle accusation very well. It might be dismissed as a childish reaction but we see he struggled to control his temper in later years as well. A person has both good and bad qualities and that’s the case with Anakin here, though his negative traits were expressed more. But the prequels are all about exploring his downfall so it was necessary to highlight them. 

Anakin to me was never a “hero” who fell to the dark side due to circumstances; he was a complex character who made some hard choices. If the roles were reversed and Padmé was the Jedi with Anakin’s life at risk, I don’t think she would go that far to commit murder. Sure Palpatine is very manipulative but at the same time he understood that it was in Anakin’s nature to be manipulated very easily. You need to have some form of fear, insecurity and resentment in you for someone to utilize them. 

I blame TCW, Rebels and the fanboyish Marvel comics for dissociating Anakin from Vader. “Anakin Skywalker was weak, I destroyed him” again makes him very one-dimensional than accepting the fact that people can be morally complex. Not to mention the Marvel comics’ tendency to make him react violently and unnecessarily ruthless to prove he isn’t Anakin drastically reduces his character depth for me. It may also have to do with the fact that movie Anakin was not well-received so they are trying to distance him from Darth Vader, whom fanboys worship. Anakin’s story is incomplete without Vader - he made a choice to embrace the dark side and sacrifice his morality so like the tragic hero he is, he has to suffer and face the consequences for his actions. Similarly, Vader’s story is incomplete without Anakin - without Anakin he is a faceless man. Sure he’s mysterious but without his past we would not know what a complex character he was or sympathise with him.

If Vader wasn’t really Anakin, he wouldn’t have felt remorse for his actions or believe it was too late for him. If he wasn’t Anakin he wouldn’t refer to Luke as his son and if he was so desperate to erase any trace of Anakin, he would have definitely killed Luke as he was a reminder of his past. It was Vader who saved Luke in the end and while it is fine to figuratively say “Anakin was back”, taking it literally undermines his sacrifice. It takes a lot to come back from the dark side, face your demons and after being that way for decades, attempt to redeem yourself when you believe you’re far too gone. He redeemed himself as an old man after a long life full of sorrow and regrets, which also sounds much better than saying “he was evil no longer” and that “Anakin was back”. It makes everything seem black and white and the prequels were essentially all about exploring the gray area. Luke didn’t even know “Anakin” and really where was Anakin when “Vader” cut off his hand? Or fought him? Vader’s inner struggle was between accepting he was far too gone and going on as he did for years, and accepting change, letting it go and forgiving himself for his son’s sake - not a struggle between two personalities fighting to take control. If they were different personalities, Anakin wouldn’t have almost all of Vader’s qualities; he wouldn’t be morally conflicted both as Anakin and Vader. George said the reason why he later replaced his force ghost as a younger version was because he stopped being Anakin after he fell to the dark side and I have to say that’s the only time I disagree with George because Anakin in prequels still had dark tendencies so I do believe Vader never stopped being Anakin hence the original version with the old force ghost made more sense to me and the new version does rob some of the depth from his character. I’m sure George has his reasons - he might have wished to preserve the black and white simplicity of the OT but after the complexity of the prequels, it seems more appropriate for the saga to have a more imperfect, realistic ending. In retrospect, it seems to me they are very much the same person when you study his personality and consider his whole life, which was full of ups and downs.

[shadowsong26x]

TLJ Reaction Post!

Putting everything behind a cut just in case, to avoid spoilers. Also, any TLJ-related posts I either write or reblog will be tagged as listed here.

Feel free to reply/reblog/ask/whatever if you want to discuss!

So, that was an experience.

First, quick reaction--while I was watching it, it was overall engaging/good. I had some issues even in the moment, but most of what I’m going to write up here was of the fridge logic variety?

Things I liked:

- Leia getting a STRAIGHT-UP ACTUAL JEDI MOMENT. Yes, I am talking about her flying through space like Mary Poppins and yes it was ridiculous but again it was a Jedi Moment sooooooooo there it is.

- All of the combat scenes/lightsaber duels in particular were really well put together. The throne room duel (which I’ll talk about that whole scene in some detail later), Finn vs. Phasma, Astral Projection Luke vs Kylo Ren (side note: I had seen a poster or clip or something before this, and I was Very Annoyed that Luke’s lightsaber was blue pretty much for the same reason I get irrationally irritated when Padme is tagged/drawn in the Gothic Peacock dress and the fact that elbows don’t grow back oh my god--minor continuity details that make a difference but don’t really matter in the long run; but the fact that Luke chose to project himself with the Heirloom Lightsaber(tm) that blew up ten minutes ago made that make sense and was delightful in hindsight) the space combat--the red dust on Crait, though, so cool the way it did visual things.

- Pretty much everything to do with Finn and Rose’s plotline (except I was sad that there was no Lando cameo at Canto Bight)

- Most of the stuff with Amilyn I liked a lot too. Especially her flipping badass Last Stand. (I also liked the fact that the bulk of high command was women, and they made a point of showing off all the lady piliots)

- Luke and Leia’s reunion moment made me bawl in a very good way. (Side note: I’m pretty sure she knew all along he was Astral Projection Luke. In part because how else could he have gotten there, in part because, as my friend who I went to see it with pointed out, he projected himself exactly as he would have been the last time she saw him. Also the much shorter and darker hair which I feel is very impractical to manage in an X-wing cockpit)

- That little kid on Canto Bight. Oh, that little kid on Canto Bight, who reminded me so much of TPM!Anakin I can’t even. (There’s a whole potential Thing here, that my friend pointed out to me, re: Light/Dark/Balance a la Daughter/Son/Father from Mortis where we might be going for Kylo as Dark, Rey as Balance, Tiny as Light? I’m not sure if I actually want the story to go there or not but it’s at least interesting as a vague concept!)

- I love Poe. Just...Poe was delightful in this film, as he figures out exactly how Being In Command works, his relationship with Leia, his back-and-forth with Amilyn...

- I liked that the bridge/whatever between Rey and Kylo was clearly set up to parallel Luke and Leia, rather than anything romantic--to the point where Luke and Leia had a Twin Moment that then immediately cut to one of the shared dreams and that can’t have been an accident.

- There was a lot of really great dialogue in this film. Just in general. “Do you think you got him.” “I don’t think they like me very much.”/”I can’t imagine why.” “What are you looking at me for? Follow him!” Leia and Amilyn’s goodbye (which, side note--I read the Leia novel, and I definitely thought she and Amilyn had more chemistry than she and Kier did, also there’s a...something percolating in the back of my brain about Kier and Lando and the similar choices they made when their people were in danger and they felt their backs were against the wall, and what that might mean in terms of added context for Leia’s choices/actions in ESB, but that is a topic for a different post)

- While this was not the Force Ghost(s) I was looking for, I enjoyed Yoda’s appearance a whole heck of a lot.

- Rey and Poe finally actually met! And it was a very nice meeting!

- The fact that, once again, the last intelligible dialogue in the film went to Leia (because Tiny was speaking in another language)

Things I am neutral about but I feel bear mentioning:

- The reveal(?) about Rey’s parentage--I’m not sure whether or not Kylo Ren was lying, but I’m honestly okay with it either way. I mean, I’ve been on team Rey Kenobi, so to speak, from the beginning [partly because I think it makes a more interesting narrative than Rey Skywalker; partly because Obi-Wan’s line of descent, if he has one (and, whether it comes from Korkie and Satine or not, I think it could be credibly written that he does)...it makes much more sense that it would be lost the way Rey’s backstory establishes than either of Luke or Leia’s children being lost. And the potential alternatives (i.e., Shmi having had a child before Anakin and they were sold separately or something, or Anakin’s DNA being used to sire another child because Reasons, would require a lot more setup than we’ve got); also I kind of like the idea of Finn Skywalker though that ship has probably sailed]. Where was I...anyway, while I prefer that story, I don’t actually dislike any of the potential theories (except the reincarnation one). And Rey Nobody (I think is what it was called?) has its own appeal, definitely. So...I guess my reaction to that is a nonreaction? Especially since I can’t make up my mind whether or not it’s true...

- I wasn’t super invested in any shipping in this trilogy, but honestly as far as I’m concerned we now have a third possible endgame pairing for Finn and I like all three. (I’d rather not discuss this particular point in overmuch detail, because as I said I’m not super invested in any ST ships and I know a lot of people are and I’d rather not get argued at on the subject).

- I have no idea how I feel about the Heirloom Lightsaber(tm) being destroyed? But the crystal seemed to be intact sooooooo we’ll see.

- Snoke’s ridiculous golden bathrobe???????

Things I liked less:

- I’m not thrilled with how Luke was written. Like...I can make it make sense. I can draw the roadmap in my brain of how we got from the Luke I know and love to the Luke we saw in this movie (including in the flashback) but it takes a lot of backhacking, so to speak. Honestly, if I ever get this far in a canon-aligned fic timeline, I would definitely go in a different direction (frex, if Masks ever comes back off hiatus and I get to Martyrs, which is the third part of that AU and is set in this timeframe, it would no longer be an In Spite Of A Nail AU from here).

(This sort of ties into...look, if I was going to assign a cardinal narrative sin to each of the trilogies (looking only at how the story is structured here), the PT has pacing issues, the OT was made up as it went along and it shows in several points; but the ST? The ST relies way too much on It’s All There In The Manual. I’ve read some of the Manual, but not all of it, because I mostly hang out in the PT corner of the fandom, but it was an issue in TFA and it was an issue again in TLJ. Amilyn and Leia, I think, suffered from this the most, but Luke’s headspace probably did, too.)

- I’m not super thrilled with the fact that we got introduced to a lot of interesting new characters, and almost all of them just...died. And I kept looking for familiar faces from TFA in the background of the Resistance and...yeah, they weren’t there.

- This is...this is maybe not going to come off as super articulate when I try to explain myself, but it actually bothers me a lot. And that’s that...there’s...there’s no...

Look. To me, above all things, Star Wars is about Redemption. It is about finding the spark of light in the darkness, and fanning it into a flame. And I say this even as someone who primarily hangs out in the PT part of fandom, which is in some ways structured as the opposite (i.e., find the speck of darkness in the light and feed it until it consumes all). Because it’s still there at the end. We still have that spark--in the twins, and in their guardians--and we are nurturing it until it is ready to burst into a proper flame and it also set up Anakin’s motivations in a way that led to/added to the credibility/impact of the eventual redemption arc. (Like I said, I’m not sure I can articulate this well, but it’s a Thing, okay?) And, yes, I get that the ST is coming at this find-the-light-in-the-dark theme from a different angle which is fine, I guess, I just...I just...

There is no antagonist (who has been at all developed) who is redeemable at this point.

Like--I didn’t really care about Kylo Ren as Kylo Ren. I cared about his (potential and now thwarted) redemption arc because see above about how that’s what Star Wars is to me. And where we left off at the end of TFA, he could still credibly be redeemed. And now, even without all the explicit ROTJ parallels (up to and including straight-up quoted dialogue), that door is closed. A redemption arc for him from here would not be credible.

And no one else in the First Order is developed enough for it, except maybe Hux, who also has credibility issues (to draw a comparison, that would be like trying to write a redemption arc for Tarkin, aka essentially impossible without an AU breakpoint when he was like twelve or younger at which point it’s not a redemption arc it’s a completely different story.) Phasma (assuming she isn’t actually dead, which I think she’s not but ehhh she might be) isn’t developed enough. No one else in the First Order who’s still alive has an on-screen not-All-There-In-The-Manual name, so it wouldn’t have the necessary emotional/narrative payoff.

And that’s...that’s...I don’t like it. I really don’t like it. I mean...it actually weirdly bothers me less than I thought it would, when I was trying to talk about this a year or so ago? I have no idea why, because like I thought that would be something that would make me completely break away at least from the ST era/corner of the fandom. And yet it’s not. But it’s still...Star Wars has always sold itself as straight up Good Vs Evil, but has had that...coming home. Or something? Like I said, not sure I’m too articulate about it. But I don’t like that this happened the way it did.

And also, just...like, think about what it would have been if they had just gone ahead and played the ROTJ aspects straight. If Ben Solo had come home, the way Anakin Skywalker did--without dying. We would get the story we never got with Vaderkin, of clawing his way back and atoning and making amends. We barely even got it with Ventress (side note: there’s a Thing in the back of my head that I’m not sure I can get out in any articulate way about the parallels between Anakin and Ventress because man.) (Also I think there might be a plot like this in Rebels, but I haven’t seen it yet so IDK for sure.)

Sigh. I don’t know. I think we’re going to get an interesting story about the way things did go, which may be part of why I’m less upset than I thought I would be. But I am upset.

(Side note: I do think that Snoke’s death was really well-put-together/well-played. I genuinely didn’t see it coming until the Heirloom Lightsaber started turning. Like...I pretty much figured that it wasn’t going to go how either Rey or Kylo saw it, because (even before Snoke said he made the bridge between them) I pretty much figured they’d both seen what they wanted to see/their ideal ending for the confrontation, so I knew it would be some kind of third option, but I did not expect the one we got and the way it was presented/approached was extremely effective; I just have serious, serious issues with where it went from there).

- I wish there had been more Leia. And Maz. And Phasma.

- I wish it had done more to expand on/develop the relationships/answer the questions/etc. established by TFA. In some ways, it feels more like “this is a series of events that happened in the wake of that,” rather than a continuation? This was mostly a problem with Poe’s storyline--Rey’s did okay at that, though if the backstory reveal was true it was a little disappointingly presented and if it’s not it didn’t resolve enough; and Finn’s did reasonably well. (Also, there were supposed to be Knights of Ren???? Were these the students that Kylo Ren left with after burning Luke’s Temple? What happened to them? Were those the people he and Rey killed in the throne room?????)

- On a much pettier note--what the fuck even was up with the timeline???? HOW SHORT ARE THE DAYS ON AHCH-TO? WHAT ABOUT FREAKING TRAVEL TIME--FTL TRAVEL IN THIS UNIVERSE IS NOT INSTANTANEOUS AND THAT IS EXPLICITLY REFERENCED IN THIS VERY FILM. Congratulations, Star Wars, you now have a film with a timeline that makes even less sense than ESB. [ROTS doesn’t, either, although that one’s more a question of ‘exactly how long is it between the Invisible Hand and Utapau because I don’t buy the ‘less than two weeks’ from the novel, but beyond that it could be anywhere from like a month to like three or four...but that makes sense, it’s just unclear.)

And, because I like to end on a positive note--there’s a lot I do genuinely enjoy/like/even love about this movie. Is it my favorite? Probably not; I don’t know exactly where I’d rank it, but probably in the Bottom Tier (I have sort of three tiers in terms of ‘Which Of These Puppies Licking My Face Am I Most Likely To Take Home If I Can Only Have One’ and they fluctuate a fair amount other than ESB, AOTC, and ROTS are consistently in the top tier). But there’s enough about it that I liked that I’m going to see it again, and while the things I disliked were for the most part serious issues, they weren’t enough to make me want to avoid the film itself. I’m hoping the next movie answers some more things, I’m hoping Phasma and Baby Canto Bight Jedi come back, I’m looking forward to Force Ghost Luke (and maybe the others fingers crossed).