#everything is also about every other culture’s mythology bc they are all connected

[thylionheart]

not everything is about Greek mythology, but also what if it kinda is…

Odysseus as the hero in battle against Poseidon in an endless dance of the near eastern storm god battling the sea god motif 😍

Odysseus’ voyage across the ocean, crossing a body of water=crossing into the underworld/netherworld 😍

Odysseus literally visiting the underworld, the storm-god-hero dying or traveling to the underworld and RETURNS, defeating death itself 😍

In the Baal cycle, Baal’s sister Anat- virgin goddess of warfare is his primary ally, sounds a bit like Athena and Odysseus!! 😍

[hellobitchlet]

I've seen a few people mention Liyue as an example to show that Hoyo is perfectly capable of doing proper research into cultures. I want to expand on my opinions about Liyue and culture a little, with some stuff I've been thinking about for a while.

So, my main interest in Genshin atm is that I've been rewriting the story. One of the main things I'm doing is putting more important lore into the main story. This has led me to looking at each nation from the perspective of "what important things are connected to this place? What can Traveler learn from here?"

Liyue is the first nation Traveler goes to in which the Archon War happened in full force. And with that, we have the adepti, immortal creatures from Chinese mythology that ruled over humanity. Adepti lore is more fleshed out than any other immortal archon group by far, thanks to having multiple characters from that group being playable 5 stars, and Genshin being more willing to make plotlines about them.

And of course, there's the culture stuff. There are two 4 stars who exist to show off Chinese culture, and we get a Lantern Rite every year. There's also Chenyu Vale, whose main draw (aside from more adepti lore(sort of)), is showing off Chinese culture through this brand new city and town.

So, obviously, Liyue's main selling points are adepti lore and Chinese culture. This is both bad for Liyue from a story perspective, and the other nations from a culture perspective.

Let me explain:

It's bad for Liyue because one of the main points having nothing to do with the story, combined with the amount of focus it gets, fills the nation up with so much filler. Aside from Baizhu and Yaoyao, we've gotten 5 new Liyue characters since Inazuma started! Those characters?

Yun Jin- filler 4 star whose gimmick is Chinese opera.

Shenhe- I'm sorry to say this, and I promise that I like her too, but she's mainly Razor if he was raised by a different immortal. Not exactly the same by far, but she functions in the same way. We didn't need another Razor. Razor and Andrius already don't get much screen time.

Yelan- honestly could've been super important with her Pantalone connection, but is instead just reduced to sexy 5 star with a gambling gimmick, to the point where she might as well be filler.

Cloud Retainer- ...ok. I don't have a huge problem with her. Other than being used to make fat jokes about Ganyu, she's neat. But she was fine as an npc, and her moving into the Harbor wasn't all that necessary when she seemed perfectly fine with living in the mountains.

Gaming- filler 4 star whose gimmick is lion dancing.

You get my point, right? The last time I remember something notable story wise coming out of Liyue was the Chasm and Perilous Trail, all the way back in Inazuma. Yet, we've gotten 4 characters, 2 Lantern Rite's, 3 LR skins, and a massive new area from Liyue since. It's so much filler. And we already have enough filler as is.

We've sure gotten more adepti lore, mainly in LR, but.. you know we're only getting that as set up to make more Liyue characters. We've learned almost everything we need to know about their story already, we have pretty much everything except for Zhongli and Guizhong's origins.

And it's bad for the other nations bc Liyue's treatment makes Natlan and Sumeru being like that, mashing European cultures together in Mondstadt and Fontaine when they're supposedly based off of 1 country, and only paying a little attention to Japanese culture in Inazuma look even worse.

They CAN, in fact, show off cultures they have researched. They've never been good at accurate designs, both with a character's appearance and their clothing, but they've still put so much more care into Liyue than other nations! There's no real reason why they can't do that for other nations. And there's no reason why they can't be even better, and make their playable characters look like the people of the cultures they're based on.

I don't have much of a point that I wanna make here. This is just an analysis I've gradually made about Liyue and it's effect on other nations.

[antiloreolympus]

10 Anti LO Asks

1. Leto being the literal Goddess of Motherhood and yet being a villain is pretty on the nose as to why LO constantly shits on every good mother figure like her and Demeter, unless they can be used to to give Hades man-pain over.

2. so much of the fashion in LO is like ... anti drip. there are occasional good outfits but most of the time its the same generic white dresses or black suits and thats it, or its some weird dated fashion from the 80s or 60s. these are supposed to be powerful gods with all the riches in the world yet none of them have heard of patterns, color, or even basic accessories.

3. I think RS is genuinely convinced she's "making the Gods Realistic™️" when it's like? The Greek Gods? The pantheon that's been well known for being complicated beings with very human flaws since 900 BC? They're in need for some random Kiwi woman who is more knowledgable on 90s anime to "fix" mythology and make it "realistic"? RS making Hera a cheater, making them have divine racism/classism, making Apollo a r//pist, Persephone worthless w/o Hades etc etc only breaks the myths!

4. LO stans are genuinely such awful and obnoxious people. They argue that LO is a retelling so 'of course it's not going to be faithful to the myth!'  and when people, especially Greeks, say it's disrespecting their culture and gods, the stans get upset?? That their uwu shitty story is getting critiqued? By the people who it's profiting off of???

I literally saw someone reply to this point with 'then those people (greeks) can just choose not to read LO!' followed up with, and I kid you not, 'there's also bible fanfiction, just saying 🤷🏻‍♀️' like as if that somehow absolves LO and it's whole plot and characters.

Some also say that multiple other series based off of the Greek mythology don't get as much flak for being a retelling (like Percy Jackson and Hades game) and like idk what to tell y'all except these other series also get equally critiqued, as everything does, but the fact that it doesn't get as hugely lambasted as LO does means they're not half as offensive as it is. (it's also already been mentioned multiple times too that PJO's author tries his best to learn from his mistakes in the series)

I basically just hate how LO stans will defend RS and her story and think our valid concerns and critiques are just mindless attacks on her.

Casual LO fans are cool though, this isn't aimed at you guys cause I know some of y'all come here and actually like to discuss/talk about the series, flaws and all.

5. -le me, watching witchtok on yt

-the video is "best of witchtok part 5" uploaded by "your witchy cousin", around the 7 minute mark

-witch with persephone as her patron, talking about how persephone is not to be messed with because she's a terrifying Goddess if needed be. proceeds to say "this is not lore olympus, people"

-me, putting my phone aside and crying in my room

i hate lore olympus so much it's unreal 

6. Rachel also clearly doesn't know mythology because how can Hecate be such a major character in this and yet has zero connection to Apollo or Artemis, who in mythology is her full blooded cousins? Apollo even had epithets making him as similar to Hecate (with some versions seeming to imply Hecate and Apollo were lovers, but w/e) and Hecate and Artemis both being maiden moon goddesses who were also divine midwives. How can she claim to be so well researched when these connections are missing?

7. Minthe isn't a nice character, but I find it so disturbing how RS, the fans, and even WT love just making fun of her trauma and watching her suffer for?? Reasons?? If anyone said Persephone was overreacting to how Demeter overprotects her, they'd say you're condoning abuse and an awful person, but it's a marketing tactic to mock Minthe for being cheated on, manipulated and used by Hades, and laughing that she's been phsyically crippled and left as a plant for the rest of her life. Like WTF?

8. Ok, so, wait, Persephone the 'Dread Queen" is perfectly fine to threaten and cripple nymphs and kill humans for her lack of control of her anger issues, but she shoots down the idea to punish her literal R//PIST? is this supposed to be some 'she's the bigger person here" thing? so random humans are supposed to die, but an actual sexual abuser is supposed to just get a slap on the wrist at best? why cant she be allowed to be angry and want revenge on him for that?  i dont understand.

9. IDK what you lot mean LO isn't good rep. I, as an NB person, am delighted the only NB rep in LO is the same person who made sure Hades can't have kids. I will happily take pride in the fact my own kin made sure that capitalist slave owner can never have his one dream realized.  Thank you for this, Rachel.

-----FP Spoilers/Mention-----

10. FP Spoilers Chapter 187: I can't stand how Hera shows not even a hint of remorse about having gone behind Demeter's back like she did. She's Demeter's sister for god's sake, she must have known how horrified Demeter was about Persephone potentially getting taken advantage of for her powers. Which, as we see in this very episode, was a very reasonable fear to have. And yet Hera still put Persephone into a prime positon to get groomed by Hades, helped cover up her disappearance and never challenged either Zeus or Hades about their treatment of her niece beyond some token scolding that gets brushed aside as easy as that. Demeter deserves a better sister.

[weirwoodking]

who do you think will be on the throne at the end? is there a chance it will be a woman? do you agree with the theory that bran will be king in the north bc he symbolizes winterfell? idk if i see dany on the throne bc i don't feel like she belongs in westeros, i think she would be better off with a throne on the other side of the narrow sea but i really don't know what i'm saying

It’s very hard to make predictions for ADOS, because we don’t have TWOW yet. So much can change about the story and the characters in one book, thematically and narratively. Think of how much the plot was influenced by just that final Bran chapter in ADWD. 

But, here I go anyway.

My short answer is: no one. (And no, I don’t mean Arya)

Let’s get into it.

Part 1: How the Show Tainted Everyone’s Brains

Obviously, a lot of people care about the Iron Throne plot. Sometimes too much. I do believe that this is mostly because of how much the HBO show changed everything about the story to make the Iron Throne seem like it was more important than anything else. Like promotional posters of all the actors each sitting on the throne, the name of the series itself being changed to “Game of Thrones”, actors getting asked in every interview “who do you think should get the Iron Throne?” as if it’s the last cupcake at a birthday party that everyone’s fighting over, the final episode was titled “The Iron Throne”. The marketing for everything was “it’s the fight for the Throne!” up through the eighth season. It made the object itself become a huge pop culture symbol.

It almost felt like the show was trying to make it seem like the goal of the Night King (a character not in the books) was to sit on the Iron Throne! The show portrayed it as if the Others were just a little distraction that needed to be dealt with so the characters could get back to arguing over the Porcupine Chair. However, in ASOIAF, it’s the exact opposite. The Porcupine Chair is what’s distracting the characters from the real conflict, the Others.

It’s almost comical how that has somewhat transferred over into the fandom, the “game of thrones” is what’s keeping everyone from focusing on what really matters, the “song of ice and fire”.

Part 2: GRRM’s Quote

It wasn't easy for me. I didn't want to give away my books. Every character has a different end. I told them who would be on the Iron Throne, and I told them some big twists like Hodor and "hold the door", and Stannis' decision to burn his daughter. We didn't get to everybody by any means.

-George R.R. Martin

So, he “told them who would be on the Iron Throne”. Something important about this quote is that he doesn’t say who. And, of course, the Iron Throne gets destroyed at the end of the show anyway. Show!Bran doesn’t really “end up on the Iron Throne”. Show!Dany does. George never said that who “ends up” on it in the books is who ends up on it in the show. He’s said that the Shireen thing and the Hodor thing will “happen very differently” in the books anyway. And, of course, another major part of that quote is “every character has a different end”.

I don’t think that who sits the Iron Throne last is necessarily going to be the ruler of Westeros at the end. For example, Cersei (or Aegon) may be the last person to sit the Iron Throne. Or even Euron (however, even though his goal is to rule post-apocalyptic Westeros as a god from the Iron Throne, I don’t think he’ll actually get there). If wildfire is hot enough to melt iron, I could see the throne being destroyed during whatever fiery shenanigans go down with Cersei and JonCon in TWOW. I think it would be fitting for the fight over the throne to end in the next book. ‘Cause the winds of winter are coming, baby, and it’s gonna be time to start dreaming of spring.

Part 3: The Weirwood King

The idea/theory of Bran becoming King has been around for a long time, long before the HBO show even started airing. This is because of the Celtic myth of King Brân the Blessed, whose name means “Blessed Crow” or “Blessed Raven” in Welsh. Other than the obvious connection with the name, Brân the Blessed’s story involves a magic cauldron that can bring the dead back to life. 

In the myth, Brân’s head is cut off and continues talking (think of how Bran’s most powerful aspect is the magical powers of his mind), because in Celtic mythology the head is believed to be where the soul is.

Celts had a reputation as head hunters. According to Paul Jacobsthal, "Amongst the Celts the human head was venerated above all else, since the head was to the Celt the soul, centre of the emotions as well as of life itself, a symbol of divinity and of the powers of the otherworld." (source)

Catch that? “Otherworld”. There is another myth (Irish, specifically) called the Voyage of Bran, in which the title character goes on a quest to the Otherworld. The Otherworld is a supernatural realm in Celtic mythology. It is also where the sidhe (a.k.a. aos sí) live. Remember, the sidhe are what George has said the Others are inspired by. In Irish mythology, the Otherworld is called Tír na nÓg, Mag Mell and Emain Ablach, in Welsh mythology it’s called Annwn, and in Arthurian legend it’s called Avalon. Fun fact, “Avalon” was the title of the novel George was writing when he had suddenly had the idea of a scene in which a young boy and his brothers see a beheading and then find a litter of direwolf pups in the snow. And so ASOIAF happened.

I’ll leave that there, and try not to go down the great big rabbit-hole of Celtic (and other cultures) mythology connections in ASOIAF. The takeaway is: ASOIAF has been influenced by these myths.

I do believe that Bran is going to be King. Not just because of his ties to this mythology, but also because of symbolism in his own story. The most notable one being…

Under the hill, the broken boy sat upon a weirwood throne, listening to whispers in the dark as ravens walked up and down his arms.

[...]

The singers made Bran a throne of his own, like the one Lord Brynden sat, white weirwood flecked with red, dead branches woven through living roots. 

[...]

His father and the black pool and the godswood faded and were gone and he was back in the cavern, the pale thick roots of his weirwood throne cradling his limbs as a mother does a child. 

- Bran III, A Dance with Dragons

Bran is also the only one of the Stark kids who still thinks of himself as royalty:

What was he now? Only Bran the broken boy, Brandon of House Stark, prince of a lost kingdom, lord of a burned castle, heir to ruins.

- Bran III, A Dance with Dragons

Bran is the heir to Winterfell. It doesn’t matter if Robb named Jon his heir in his will, the will was written under the pretense that Bran and Rickon were dead.

However, Bran doesn’t have any connection to the Iron Throne. It’s far more likely that he would sit on a weirwood throne, because of, y’know, everything about his story. So, if Bran was King of the Seven Kingdoms, I don’t think it would be on the Pincushion Stool.

If Bran is king of the realm, I do think there would still be a separate Lord/Lady of Winterfell, but I do think that there’s a possibility of a Pevensie siblings ending, where all the Stark kids would rule together as the Lords and Ladies and Winterfell.

Something that I’ve never really seen talked about regarding the idea of Bran becoming King of the Seven Kingdoms is the religious differences between the North and the southern regions of Westeros. Of course, the show didn’t deal with this at all. For fuck’s sake, they had Cersei blow up the Westerosi verison of the Vatican and face no backlash. It was so laughably absurd how Show!Cersei’s destructive reign was shown to have like… zero impact on the Seven Kingdoms. 

In short, I’m not too sure that the Kingdom who is majority Faith of the Seven worshippers would react too well to a weirwood-tree-Old-Gods-warg-wizard-king. I mean, when Janos Slynt finds out Jon is a warg he calls him a “thing”, a “creature”, and a “beastling that is not fit to live”, and wanted to execute him not just for being a turncloak but for being a warg as well. And Jojen warns Bran of these things, saying that his own folk may want to kill him if they know what he is.

But… all of that anti-magic attitude might not matter after night falls. 

Part 4: Winter is Coming

I believe that the Long Night is going to be very devastating for the Seven Kingdoms.

Martin is a big believer in making things have meaningful, permanent consequences in his stories. I don’t think that an apocalyptic event like the Long Night is something that’s just gonna get dealt with in a quick snap and have no lasting effect.

A lot of people are going to die. I don’t mean main characters, I mean people that would not survive a normal winter and sure as hell won’t be prepared for this one. Westeros’s food stores have been severely depleted by the War of the Five Kings, and we’ve been told multiple times in the text (particularly AFFC and ADWD) that feeding people during this winter is going to be extremely hard.

Besides that… the whole, uh, invasion of the eldritch ice beings thing might have a bit of an impact on the realm. 

I won’t go into depth about how the Seven Kingdoms will be affected by the Long Night, ‘cause we really have no idea. But, however it all goes down, I do think it will have lasting changes for the people of Westeros. The impact that it leaves may make the concept of Bran being a wizard-king more acceptable. “Oh, well we’ve just seen zombies and winter elves, so what’s too surprising about a magical greenseer warg king?” I think that Westerosi culture becoming more aware and accepting of the existence of magic is the only way that Bran could become the king of the whole realm. The Westeros at the end of the series is not going to be the place that it was at the beginning.

Part 5: Dany: A Home, Not a Throne

To sum up my thoughts on our dragon girl, I don’t think Dany will end up on the Spiky Toilet. I don’t want Dany to be on the Spiky Toilet.

Now, my personal speculation (which a lot of people disagree with, which is fine) is that Dany will never see King’s Landing before the Long Night. I personally don’t think that Dany will ever meet Aegon or Cersei. I don’t see there being enough time in the story for that. Yes, GRRM said that there will be a second Dance of the Dragons, but he also said that the second Dance does not have to involve Dany. He may have originally planned for it to be Aegon and Dany, but probably not once the Meereenese Knot happened.

The Meereenese Knot is what Dany’s ADWD plot is referred to as. GRRM did not intend for Dany to stay in Meereen as long as she has, but because of his “gardener” style of writing, that’s where the story led him. GRRM has said that one of the hardest parts of writing the Meereen plotline (which involves Dany, Barristan, Quentyn, Tyrion, and Victarion) is trying to find a way to cut the plot knot he accidentally got himself stuck in. He has said that Tyrion and Dany will meet towards the end of TWOW, which means that Dany will most likely be spending a large portion of her story with the Dothraki. That part is a completely blank page, but I believe that Dany will meet Tyrion possibly ¾ of the way into the book, and sail for Westeros at the end.

I won’t write a full meta about this here (because that’s not what this post is about), but to summarize my prediction: Aegon VS Cersei is going to be the battle in King’s Landing, a battle which will destroy the city. Dany (who has already rejected sailing for the Throne multiple times) will still be stuck in Essos, dealing with everything she’s still got going on, and will sail for Westeros at the end. Not for the Throne, but to go North for the real fight (remember that Marwyn is also on his way to Meereen to tell Dany that they need her).

Because Dany's purpose is not to fight for the Iron Throne, it’s to fight the Others. Dany (fire, light, and life) VS the Others (ice, darkness, and death) is the main thing the title refers to:

“Well of course the two outlying ones, the things that are going on north of the Wall and Daenerys Targaryen on the other continent with her dragons are of course the Ice and Fire of the title, the Song of Ice and Fire.” 

- George R.R. Martin, 2016

One of the most important excerpts that shows us where Dany’s story is headed is this:

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

- Daenerys III, A Storm a Swords

Dany has a short prophetic “this is what I was meant to do” dream. Dany could possibly have more dreams about the Others in TWOW, visions that will make what Marwyn has to tell her more believable. It’s not like that dream was the only one Dany has had that alludes to the winter threat, Dany has had visions about this since book one:

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

- Dany IX, A Game of Thrones

Anyway, there’s just a lot more foreshadowing in the plot that this is what Dany is meant to do. I think adding in another conflict into her story once she leaves Meereen would make the story feel bloated and would severely fuck up the pacing.

I don’t think Dany will ever see the Iron Throne. The themes of her story have never been about her wanting the Iron Throne for what it is, but for what it represents to her. It represents the possibility of a home and of feeling safe for the first time in her life, what Dany truly wants. I think that it’s absolutely fine if Dany never sees the Throne or sits on it, and that it makes more sense for her narrative arc if she discovers that she can find a home somewhere else, not necessarily where she thought it would be. 

Part 6: Final Thoughts

So, in conclusion, I don’t really give a shit who ends up placing their ass on the Forbidden Laz-E-Boy, I care about the War for the Dawn. I care about seeing the characters I’ve followed for the past five books coming together to fight the real conflict of A Song of Ice and Fire. Also, even if we do get a Scouring of the Shire-type post-climax for ASOIAF, it doesn’t matter. People don’t see the Scouring of the Shire as the climax of Lord of the Rings, they see the climax as Aragorn leading the forces of good against the forces of evil and Frodo and Sam throwing the One Ring into Mount Doom. Whatever ending resolution comes after the climax of ASOIAF, it doesn’t change what the climax is.

"Do you think your brother's war is more important than ours?" the old man barked.

Jon chewed his lip. The raven flapped its wings at him. "War, war, war, war," it sang.

"It's not," Mormont told him. "Gods save us, boy, you're not blind and you're not stupid. When dead men come hunting in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?"

"No." Jon had not thought of it that way.

- Jon IX, A Game of Thrones

TL;DR:

My prediction: Cersei will be the last person to sit the Iron Throne, which will be destroyed in the Wildfire of King’s Landing. After the Long Night devastates the Seven Kingdoms, Bran will become the King of this new Westeros that has been majorly affected by the return of magic. Also, it would be real nice if Dany found her red door.

God I hope my rambling made sense

[mira--mira]

3 things:

the first, Le gasp. Did Madara gave Hashirama the necklace that Tsunade gave to Naruto? That's always been a headcanon of mine so it'd be super cool if that was the case for OoT.

the 2nd: I now have a mental image of Gai running laps around Konoha with Lee & Hashimada bellowing about youth, like he does. Ppl just assuming that they're his Genin team. Cue either Neji, Tenten or Kakashi hearing about it and going over to check what's happening.

Kakashi will gaze upon the matching jumpsuits and give up on life

Neji and Tenten will be offended that they've been replaced.

The 3rd: Hashirama learns of Kakashi's (or well anyones) distaste for the jumpsuits and innocently suggest that when he becomes Hokage he'll implement them as the official Shinobi uniform. Legwarmers and all.

Now that I think about it, the Gai's outfit it literally Kakashi's except green and w/ legwarmers instead of bandages. So it probably wouldn't be that different, but its still kinda funny.

How are people afraid of the Gunbai? Cuz they're not old enough to have seen Madara use it and since he's a ghost, shouldn't all portraits/pictures of him be gone. I mean I guess there's still the statue. But Madara's not weilding a fan in that one. Are students just told in the academy that the fan is bad or is it more like a cultural aversion to fans. If that's the case then are they afraid of the fan or just dislike it? Cuz its kinda implied that Gai panicked upon seeing the fan and opened the 6th gate, but that's a big reaction that would only be triggered by actual fear instead of disgust.

Sorry for the long ramble. I was just so excited to see Oot update that my words got away from me. Love your fic!

Warnings for slight spoilers, it's more background necklace stuff only in point 1 but just fyi in case it’s important to you!

1. Yes! I love that headcanon but this one has a slightly different history behind it. Madara did give it to him, but it's the necklace he inherited from his mother that his father gave her. This is bc in the "canon" history, Madara and Hashirama were never public about their relationship. The traditional Uchiha courtship necklace was incredibly recognizable (the magatama ie the big "comma" symbol on sage/indra/ashura's clothes) so Madara couldn't easily make him one. However, Tajima made the same necklace for Kou but it broke into its now-recognizable shape of today and she refused to wear any other necklace but that one, saying it was unique among all the Uchiha's (she also compared it to a dick when Tajima added the two beads on either side to make it look nicer, but that's bc Kou had a rather coarse sense of humor). Typically the mother's necklace is inherited by the oldest daughter but since Kou only had sons, it went to Madara and was one of the last things he had of her. It was his declaration of love to give it to Hashirama and, considering how vilified and demonized Kou was to the Senju, his own declaration to accept and wear it.

2. Oh you better believe they’ll run laps together! (edit: I realized this got buried in my drafts so Chapter 17 has already come out, so yes you predicted part of the future 😜) Hashirama will be little more proactive in his revenge so no stumbling upon them haha! And Gai already has plans to introduce the terrors to his genin team 😉

3. He’ll accidentally stumble upon Kakashi’s specific distaste of the outfit but you better believe once he finds, he’ll just happen to bring it up to Kakashi every once in a while just to see his reaction. 

The issue with the gunbai is it’s specifically associated with the Ghost of the Uchiha. Madara’s individual name got lost (only the elders, ninja with access to classified records, and certain clans remember it). But the “Ghost” was a bogeyman to Konoha, an evil, terrible man who was cursed with only hatred in his heart, who turned on the village and tried to destroy it. 

(In the full story, it also connects Konoha’s hatred of Kurama specifically (the monster the Ghost used to try and destroy the village) which will also be connected to one reason why the jinchuriki were always set up to be pariahs, and how by killing Madara, Hashirama’s deification as the God of Shinobi was complete, as well as another reason the Uchiha were separated and held at arms length which only worsened over time as the story became more and more mythologized and Madara’s past contributions as a founder were lost.)

Because there weren’t paintings/statues of the Ghost (except for VotE which...I think is actually a bit of a controversial piece for Konoha tbh, and the Uchiha’s secret mural) the only thing that really stuck to symbolize him was the gunbai. This is a very American-centric perspective and I will be the first to admit isn’t a perfect parallel by any means but the kind of fear/hatred most of Konoha and especially ninja have towards the gunbai/Ghost can be thought of like the Red Scare panic. The “paranoia” point isn’t quite met but that kind of visceral hatred and fear over something that they’re told to fear and hate but don’t actually have first hand experience is similar. I also think it could work as a kind of dark reflection of the Will of Fire ideology. If you’re not someone who would sacrifice everything for the village and endure relentlessly...are you going to betray the village and become the next Ghost? That’s not a vocal belief in Konoha, but more something that’s kind of implied by the black/white mentality that nationalism kind of inspires. The emotion is only towards gunbai in particular, but the culture around fans in general and them being “too similar” has created an aversion to all fans esp in the ninja clans. Tenten has a small tessen (an iron hand held fan) but it’s something that very clearly marks her as clanless to other shinobi because no clan ninja would own one. 

All of this to say, when Gai first saw the gunbai unexpectedly the years of being taught this explicitly and implicitly kicked in and he reacted. It was a panicked instinct and if he weren’t the amazing man we know and love seeing Madara with the gunbai and definitely knowing their connection, other ninja in Konoha would find it perfectly reasonable for him to then try and attack Madara.

I hope this clears things up, I felt I got a bit rambly in the middle!

[janiedean]

Amazing how you can erase and twist everything someone says and not even bother to check things before launching in your 1000 words answer where you repeat the same things over and over again. When I say “Theon’s story is about destroying death”, I AM talking about his trauma and abuse. I’m not saying that Theon is a superhero, I’m saying that Theon’s story is literally about surviving and saying no to the dying of light, he’s always been trapped between life and death. How is that less meaningful than Jon being AA just because he’s special. Jon is stereotypical, not matter how much you deny it. He is the bastard son of the “good” Ned Stark that everyone seems to venerate, he becomes important, he’s actually a prince, and heir to the kingdom, he’s going to come back from the dead and apparently it’s not enough because he’s also AA. Also “I search for AA and see only Snow”, how is that not a red flag? Didn’t you think that it could be about Ramsay hiding Theon? I didn’t say that everything is about mythology and ancient literature, I said Theon has a lot of connections to it, connections that are hard not to notice, that actually make sense and are not taken out of nowhere like everyone in this fandom does. Theon’s story is about himself, not about Bran or any Stark, you’re just obsessed with throbb. Theon is connected to magic and to the gods, Theon is the rightful king of the Iron Islands, so why it’s so amusing to people when someone suggests that Theon has something to do. I’m not saying that Theon has to be important for his story to count, but why it’s so amusing to people the idea that Theon is an abuse and rape victim and at the same time he has something to do. When it comes to female victims, they want them to do great things, when it comes to Theon they constantly reduce him to poor say boy, but Theon is not like that, Theon is in pain and he wants everything to end, but he’s also angry and he wants to be free. I didn’t say that he has to explore the sea because he’s an Ironborn, you said that, not me. I think that that’s something Book!Theon would want to do if he survives everything. Because he would be free and he would go into the unknown. That’s not true Theon has no connection to the sea, the Drowned God himself wants him as king and he likes ships, there’s also the fact that he never learned how to use a ship because he was kidnapped at 10. Also what’s so wrong about him connecting with his culture? He could change things, he wouldn’t be a viking, he would be an explorer. The way you talk about it, it’s like dealing with trauma means closing himself in an house. And about the prophecy, what’s so amusing about saying that Theon has a lot that fits? I know that the prophecy is vague, but Davos and Stannis don’t come close to it as Theon does. Theon died in almost every possible way and managed to come back on his own. He keeps saying that he died in Winterfell. Read the last chapters in ACOK, it’s all there and it all happens at the same time, and still there’s so much more, so many things. And it’s like this HAS to be true, but you say no to everything, you don’t even think that he has something to do with the Iron Islands, you just think he has to “atone” to Bran, so how are you different from D&D? Theon doesn’t have to atone to Bran, Robb or anyone else called Stark, his story is about identity. And Bran is talking to Theon and yes, Theon took Winterfell, but it’s not the only reason their stories are connected, Theon taking Winterfell from Bran was a foreshadowing to them interacting in the future for different more important reasons, that was always clear to me

... anon never mind that I hadn't talked about this in ages so like you came into my inbox with some 500 words of replying at 8 am on a sunday morning and idk how *I* am supposedly twisting things when

you brought this out of nowhere

I hadn't talked about the AA thing nor anything wrt theon's ending in like... a year

you are basically making up half of what I said or didn't because like 'oh I didn't say he had a tying to the sea because he's an ironborn' but two lines later you say 'what's the issue if he reconnects with his ancestry' which.... means that he'd have a tie to the sea because he's an ironborn so what's the truth here

'you're obsessed with throbb' I didn't mention robb once in my entire answer nor throbb nor I have written throbb meta recently like... I ship throbb but I don't see how that has any relevance to an answer where I literally didn't mention it and I said theon's sl can't be just about the starks

idk why you seem to think I have great stakes re jon snow and 'he's stereotypical no matter how much you say he's not', I'm saying that for a chosen one archetype he's a deconstruction so he's not stereotypical in the way h*rry p*tter is or aragorn is or whatever and it's like objective text and honestly I have fic to write and stuff to do and I could have like completely ignored your ask and said 'I think you're wrong' instead yesterday I spent half an hour answering you like... you don't need to sound that aggressive or come at me with this entire block of text when I wasn't even the one starting this conversation

what’s so amusing about saying that Theon has a lot that fits?

anon I explained in those 1k reply or whatever all the reasons why everything theon has that fits is something every single other character has at that point dany has the exact same reasons for fitting it and I told you all the reasons why jon has extra things that fit that no one else has, like.... it's my opinion, I haven't changed my mind since 2012 on it, you aren't going to change it and no one is until grrm writes different, you don't need to convince me or look for me to validate your reading because you can have whichever reading you want and no one stops you, I just don't think it's correct, the end

The way you talk about it, it’s like dealing with trauma means closing himself in an house.

anon you keep on saying I say that but you are aware that if I say I want char X to get their little house in the village/woods/city of their choice and grow strawberries with their loved ones and be happy I'm not saying what you said and I'm talking abt endgame? jaime and brienne both also deal with trauma and when I say that I hope they get married on tarth have fifteen kids and never set foot in a court again I'm not saying having children is the only way to deal with trauma like.... one thing is the endgame one thing is how you get there, where did I say theon is gonna lock himself in a cottage in wow and stay there until ados? nowhere, like.... please a bit of chill here? you read a thing and arbitrarily decided it meant stuff it doesn't mean but I am the one twisting and erasing? like sorry but it sounds like you want a fight about it or smth and believe me fighting about who is AA is not on my list of to-do things for today, also 'I died in winterfell' is like... yeah, theon greyjoy died in wf then he became reek then he became theon again, it's metaphorical, jon literally died, also like if AA wasn't a main fiver then it'd probably be someone completely out of left field that no one gaf about and for that matter there's a character who has been dying and coming back to life who has a flaming sword since like acok, but do I see you telling me it's textual proof beric is AA? no, but that would make more textual sense than theon imvho so *shrug*

in short: anon sorry but it sounds like being that theon is your fave - which... I mean he's in my top three so I agree that he's a great fave choice - you want him desperately to have the main role in the main storyline which is imvho not the case and again... even if jon was stereotypical (which we can argue on but like... from your wording I think you hate jon ngl which fair enough everyone has their dislikes) it wouldn't make the textual evidence less evidence and like... idk how to say it nicely but not liking the protagonist is more common than not and if you don't whatever but that doesn't mean he's not and that the textual stuff indicating he has the mystical hero storyline doesn't exist, I'd suggest you make peace with that concept and with the concept that your fave doesn't need to have any specialness in their sl to be a legitimate fave, also like... in asoiaf everyone who is special™ has a shit life and when grrm says he wants a bittersweet ending like in lotr, do I have to remind anyone what was lotr's ending? samwise gamgee goes back to his little house and children and wife in the shire and says he's home and we're all happy that the dude who deserved it most got it great, if that's what he's aiming for I really don't think presuming everyone gets the magical great™ storyline is in the cards X°D but most of all: again, everyone who's had a sl being full of magic prophecies and shit in these books has had a crap life and hated every second of it that was related to those prophecies and I want theon to be happy at the end so in lack of any imvho text proof that says it's anyone but jon I'll stick with that because it means none of my faves is in line to hate their life, which is exactly what happens to jon if he's AA and exactly what I think is gonna happen and I don't particularly like that for him either bc I do want jon to have nice things but idt he'll get them, doesn't mean I'm trying to find any textual reason to decide on my own that AA is dany (a char I care a lot less about) so that she gets the brunt of it because that's now how it works, I made peace with it too X°D

[arabian-bloodstream]

Gendrya are married. Period.

*I decided to just post this here in its entirety.

I believe that Arya and Gendry are married. Period. And (almost) all of the clues were right there in front of us. Why was it sub-textual instead of clearly there in the text? I have three thoughts on that. One is that I think that D&D miscalculated in thinking that viewers and even die-hard fans would over-analyze the series like they had in the past looking for answers. That simply was just not going to happen since this was the final season and viewers expected definitive answers.

I did analyze (and over-analyze) everything having to do with Arya and Gendry’s arc and this is what I’ve come up with… you may or may not agree. I think it’s pretty clear, however, when taking in all of the following that Arya and Gendry were wed when Game of Thrones came to a close.

A Wedding Foreshadowed

The Fruitful Mother 

Cloak of Protection 

What Gendry Knows 

That's Not Me 

Life Versus Death 

A Gift To No One 

His Wife 

Third Time's The Charm 

She Begins Where He Ends 

She Wore His Colors 

The Ship That Was Promised 

Circles and Secrets

To the End of the World 

Happily Ever After

  Below the cut (because this sucker is long) I break down all of the above.

A Wedding Foreshadowed

The night before what many thought was going to be their last day, Arya briefly joined the Hound on the parapets. This scene held significance or three reasons. Firstly, it set-up their conversation in the fifth episode, "The Bells," where the Hound once more fights for Arya. In that, his fight for her is his determination to turn her away from his path of dying for revenge and turn her towards living.

The second is one that had played throughout the season, how his story with Arya was connected to Gendry’s with Arya. When Arya first saw the Hound, Gendry came right behind him. When Arya first spoke to the Hound, it was in defense of Gendry, and Gendry was witness to their reunion. In the following episode, Gendry and the Hound discussed Arya, Gendry went to Arya, and her next scene was with the Hound, a thread of life and death, choosing life or death running through them.

Finally, Beric showed up and joined Arya and the Hound and spoke to Arya, in so many words, apologizing for how things ended with them. Viewers who remembered their history knew that his apology was for selling Gendry to Melisandre. The Hound’s question to Arya if Beric was another one on her list and her acknowledgement that he was for a short time was another nod to her history with Gendry.

And the nods to that history are important to note because of the Hound’s line when Beric first came upon them and the scene that played right after Arya left the “two miserable old shits.”

Oh, for fuck's sake, may as well be at a bloody wedding.

Three people in the cold, dark night in a castle of thousands and that is what he said… hmm. And right afterwards, Arya laid with Gendry for the first time.

The Fruitful Mother

Prior to the actual lovemaking—and yes, it was lovemaking. She had to have sent word to him where she was otherwise, he wouldn’t have known. It was Gendry that she wanted, period. Ahem… prior to the actual lovemaking, any type of sexual situation with Arya and Gendry happening was *obviously* going to happen in the forge. Because, you know, Gendry=the forge, thus the hashtag #forgesex was well associated with Arya and Gendry literally years before season 08.

In fact, even after Arya and Gendry actually had sex in some random storage room, their lovemaking is still referred to as forgesex. Here’s the thing, though, was it random? Where Arya and Gendry did the deed was on sacks of grain. Why not in the forge? Arya had already gone and sought her weapon once before. Wouldn’t it have made sense for her to go looking for that weapon yet again as an excuse {wink*wink} to see Gendry in the conveniently empty forge for… wait for it! …. Forgesex! Actual forgesex.

Nope, instead, they were in a storage room filled with sacks of grain. Yes, grain. Hmm. And what does grain make one think of? Harvesting, and digging deeper, we can look at mythology and my mind automatically went to the Greek goddess of harvest, Demeter. Although, she is often described simply as thus, she also presided over the cycle of life and death. (See that section below). Around 205 BC, the worship of Demeter was merged with that of the Roman agriculture goddess Ceres. In Roman culture, married women were taught to emulate Ceres, the devoted and fruitful Mother.  By following these rites, it was believed that would help ensure a good harvest and increase the fertility of those who partook in the tradition.

So, instead of forgesex, we got grainsex. Grain=harvest and harvest=fertility, life, renewal, rebirth, many things that Arya eventually chooses for herself in the end and when this reference comes into play Gendry is literally joined with her in this particular process.

A reach, perhaps, admittedly, but it’s yet another piece to add to the whole.

Cloak of Protection

Arya’s third and final scene in the second episode held yet another significant clue. Cloaks are a major symbol of marriage in Westeros.   During weddings, a bride wears a cloak of her house (called “the maiden’s cloak”) and during the ceremony, the maiden’s cloak is removed and the groom places a cloak of his house and colors upon her shoulders. This signifies her moving from one house to another and that his bride is now under the protection of her husband and his house. (Recall the humiliating situation that Tyrion found himself in when he was unable to place his cloak on Sansa during their wedding due to Joffrey having the stool removed.)

When Gendry came to Arya in the storage room with her weapon he was dressed up as nicely as we’ve ever seen him. Including wearing a cloak that featured, oh so coincidentally, the House Baratheon colors. (Nice, Gendry.) The fur was a burnished beige-ish gold and the rest of the material was black. And in that final scene when the two lay atop those sacks of grain in the aftermath of their lovemaking—while Arya was dealing with all of the feels she’d unleashed, she was covered by Gendry’s cloak, kept safe and warm from the cold.

Yes, indeed. A small thing, but yet another one.

What Gendry Knows

One of the most important scenes in Arya and Gendry’s story was when he chose to stay with the Brotherhood without Banners. He did so because he’d never had a family and he chose them for that chance to have one. Arya told him then that he could be her family, and in doing so she was telling him that she loved him. We know because Maisie Williams told us that she was directed to say that line like “I love you,” and that was the take that was used. Gendry’s response was that she wouldn’t be his family, she would be “milady.” Bluntly put, Arya offered herself to Gendry and he turned her down.

When Gendry proposed to Arya, it was a reverse of *that* scene. In other words, it put them on equal standing in absolutely every way. They are not only now both technically a lord and a lady, but they had both offered themselves to the other and been rejected in turn. Instead of saying “I love you” in so many words with “I can be your family,” as Arya did to Gendry, Gendry actually said the words. He told her, “I love you.” He said: “Be my wife.” He offered himself to her, and she turned him down.

So how is this a good thing and part of the Gendrya Wedded Belief? Well, since we had Gendry rejecting Arya, and Arya rejecting Gendry how does the narrative go? Third times the charm. When they next meet, the offer to be with one another will come again and this time it should be accepted. How do we know this for sure? Again… it was all there on the screen, in what was said. Gendry made it perfectly clear where he stood. He knows exactly what he wants. He always has. That has been a consistent with this character. This is what he told Arya before he got ahead of himself and made his drunken, clumsy proposal:

All I know is you’re beautiful and I love you and none of it will be worth anything if you’re not with me.

There was a reason this line was included in their scene. Especially that last part. “None of it will be worth anything if you’re not with me.” What was the point of that if it didn't matter? Everything, because *it did* matter.  For Gendry, none of it is worth anything without Arya, so... he is going to give it up. We just didn't see it. Because, again, as I stated atop, D&D perhaps thought that fans would over-analyze like they had in the past and figure it out themselves.

And so the pile keeps growing.

That’s Not Me

First off, let’s get the meaning of Arya’s infamous "That’s not me," out of the way. The full conversation was essentially about gender inequality.

Arya: [Bran] wants to be a knight of the Kingsguard. He can't be one now can he? Ned: No, but someday he could be lord of a holdfast or sit on the king's council or he could raise castles like Bran the Builder. Arya: Can I be lord of a holdfast? Ned: You will marry a high lord and rule his castle. And your sons shall be knights, and princes, and lords. Arya: No, that's not me.

So, yeah, Ned—as great a father as he was—essentially told Arya, yeah, you're just going to be some man's property and pop out his babies. THAT is why Arya said, "that's not me." So when Gendry (drunkenly and thus stupidly) phrased his proposal as he did, he put her right back in that position of just being a lord's wife who was expected to pop out his babies, and, no, that is not her.

However, that's not who he wants. He has zero interest in a lady like that because he's most definitely not a lord like that. However, he didn't say any of that, instead he just asked her to be his lady and so she kissed him sweetly and softly and she told him that he would be a wonderful lord and any lady would be lucky to have him. She did that because she wants him to be happy, and, yes, because she does love him. You could see that written all over her. She loves him so much, it was shining all over her face, radiating from her very being.

That's not the only reason she said no, though. Once she had made her decision to tell him no, it was only at that point that she allowed herself to show him her love—thus his confusion. Prior to that moment though, when Gendry told Arya that he loved her and proposed, she looked terrified. And that made perfect sense.

Think of how the episode began. She had lain fire down on a funeral pyre for a man who had sacrificed himself to save her life. She felt the pain of that after being numb for so long, Arya had only recently begun to allow herself to begin to feel again. Feelings that include pain. She's not ready for that. Compounded by that, she doesn't want Gendry getting hurt or dying. She never wants to feel that pain. So, she's going back to the numb persona from her years on her own, before she saw Gendry again.

Plus, she had made her decision to go to King's Landing and finish her list. Arya was going to kill Cersei Lannister and she didn't expect to survive. So how could she tell Gendry she would marry him if she was planning on dying? She couldn't. So she fell back on her old stand-by. She wasn't a lady, not in words, not in action. It just hadn't occurred to her that Gendry wasn't a lord in words or actions either.

But it will, because Gendry isn't going to remain drunk forever. He knows Arya, and he's going to figure out where he went wrong—especially because she pretty much spelled it out for him. He doesn't want a lady like she described. That's not him.

Life Versus Death

I mentioned in the first section about how the Hound’s story with Arya was connected to Gendry’s with Arya throughout all of season 08. It was because they represented opposite choices of her life going forth.

The Hound is death. Gendry is life.

It’s all tied up together. Gendry (life) chose to walk away from her all those years ago, and then Arya ran away and was captured by the Hound (death). In episode 04, Gendry (life) offered himself to her, but she chose to walk away and met up with the Hound (death).

This is the reason that Arya’s story was entangled with the Hound and Gendry all season long. And it absolutely was.

In her very first scene Arya saw the Hound and literally a few seconds later she saw Gendry. Of particular interest was that the Hound was on a BLACK horse and Gendry was on a WHITE horse. Throughout history, mythology and literature, black horses are often associated with death and darkness, while white horses are associated with peace, fertility and life.

When the Hound first saw Arya, Gendry was there, and of course, when Gendry first saw Arya, the Hound was present. This was in their reunion scenes with her that were literally combined. Gendry’s was just extended so that when the Hound was gone… Arya was still there with Gendry. Yes, again… when the Hound (who represented death) was gone, Gendry (who represented life) remained.

As mentioned in the first section, the night before the Battle of Winterfell, Arya left the Hound (and Beric who died during that battle to save Arya) to be with Gendry.

The Hound (of *all people*) told Gendry he should be celebrating life (with Arya)… not Davos, not Tormund, not Jon, but the Hound!

When Arya left Winterfell–and Gendry–she left on a BLACK horse and met up with the Hound. Remember when the Hound first arrived in Winterfell, he rode a black horse.

Arya left death and destruction behind her in King's Landing on a WHITE horse. Again, remember when Gendry first arrived in Winterfell, he rode a white horse.

Maisie Williams mentioned in her pre-season press tour that Arya would be torn and that is something that we hadn’t seen prior to episode 05. After episode 04, I had believed the struggle would be that Arya was torn between choosing death or life. And that is exactly what happened.

It eventually came down to Arya making the choice herself to walk away from death–which I believed that the Hound would push her to do–and choose life, and as I’ve pointed out, in many ways, Gendry equaled life just as the Hound equaled death. And that is what opened her eyes and did give that final push. As the Hound told her while the Red Keep was falling down around that them:

You think you’ve wanted revenge a long time? I’ve been after it all my life. It’s all I care about and look at me. LOOK AT ME! You want to be like me? You come with me, you die here.

This is what David Benioff said about the scene itself in “Inside the Episode” right after the show aired.

It’s a small scene, but it’s also, for us, one of the most important scenes in the whole episode because it’s the culmination of their story together. The road to vengeance always ends in one place. Which is what the Hound is saying to her here. "I’ve made my choice a long time ago, and this can only end in one possible way for me. But for you, you have so many other options.

The Hound has genuinely come to have affection for Arya. I think he loves her, as much as he’s capable of loving someone. And he knows that if she comes with him at this point, she’s not going to make it out of there.

And here’s where we go back to the section above. Arya knew that that she wouldn’t get out alive too. After she turned down Gendry’s proposal–in my analysis, rejecting life–and joined the Hound on the road to King’s Landing to kill Cersei, expecting to lose her life in the process, she rode a black horse.

After listening to Sandor’s words, after choosing to let Cersei die by a means other than her hand, running through the streets of death and chaos, she fought to live, fighting to try and help others live. She survived because the God of Death declared that no, my former pupil, death was not happening, not today, Arya Stark stood amidst all of that death and she stood in the light. The sun shone upon her and she saw a way out of that darkness, away from all of that death, back to life. She saw a white horse.

And she rode on that white horse away from death. To life? To Gendry? I think so. Why? Well, that brings me to another couple of key scenes that led me to my Gendrya Wedded Belief: the first and last scene with the Hound.

In the first scene, Gendry and the Hound were at the feast celebrating the North’s victory over the undead–Arya’s victory. And, of course, Arya was nowhere to be found.

Gendry: Have you seen Arya? The Hound: You can still smell the burning bodies and that's where your head is at? Gendry: I just want to thank her– The Hound: I'm sure you do. Gendry: Look, it’s not about that. The Hound: Of course, it's about that, you twat. Why shouldn't it be? The dead are dead. You're not.

The Hound made it pretty clear that he was well aware that Gendry wanted to *be* with Arya and when Gendry tried to deny it, the Hound called him on it and, surprisingly, pointed out that it was exactly what he should be doing. Now, let’s make this clear. Gendry wanted to celebrate LIFE with *Arya* and the Hound flat-out told him that such was exactly the thing he should be doing.

Contrast this with the final conversation the Hound had in the episode.

Arya: You're heading to King's Landing. The Hound: I have some unfinished business. Ayra: Me too. The Hound: I don't plan on coming back. Arya: Neither do I.

So, there we had the show using the Hound to illustrate that *Gendry* is life as Gendry wanted to celebrate life with Arya–who you remember was “celebrating” by shooting arrows at a target–and on the opposite spectrum, that Arya had indeed once more chosen to pursue death. Therefore, the conclusion to draw from those scenes that bookended one another so beautifully—when taking into account that Arya did choose life in the next episode—is that in choosing life, she will choose Gendry.

Gendry came riding into Winterfell on a white horse. The Hound rode a black horse. Arya left Winterfell and headed to King’s Landing on a black horse, expecting, intending to die. The Hound did die, Arya lived, and rode out of King’s Landing on a white horse.

The Hound is death. Gendry is life.

Arya chose Gendry. Just because we didn’t see it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Everything added up to such is exactly what did indeed happen.

A Gift To No One

Now, taking all of the above into account, the Arya and the tangling of Gendry and the Hound–which just had to be deliberate because it was so meticulously crafted–this little bit of tidbit gave further credence to my Gendrya Wedded Belief. In early Spring of 2018, D&D helped create a new Spotify playlist: Game of Thrones: The End Is Coming. Upon doing so, they told For the Record in an email:

The answer to the ending is one hundred percent hidden in the playlist choices. No one will believe us, but it’s true.

One particular song caught my attention specifically because of a video on the official Game of Thrones YouTube channel. It’s title: Game of Thrones | Season 8 Episode 5 | The Hound’s Gift (HBO).  The description of the video is: "Maisie Williams explains Arya’s choice."

Why *this* was interesting is because prior to that episode I had been going on quite a bit about Arya having to make a choice between life and death. I had even written a post before episode 04 titled “Arya’s choice.”  That one essentially revolved around much of what the previous section here entailed. In the video Williams was talking about the "gift" that the Hound gives Arya.

This is a really important moment, the Hound realizing that “I don’t think this kid knows what she’s gonna get into.” And turning around and giving her this incredible gift, which is the second ticket to a new life.

He’s wanted revenge his entire life, and do you wanna be like him? “Is that what you want?” Just a moment in Arya where all those emotions that she’s been trying to suppress and trying to ignore and trying to focus on the task at hand all bubble up again, and this man who she cares so much about and has learned so much from and admires so much turned around and says ‘You don’t want this. You—you go.’ She realizes there is another way. There is another life that she could have.

Breaking down what she said, it obviously lined up completely with where I had seen her arc going. Arya stepped away from her whole list-friendly, emotionless persona and having Sandor basically tell her that she doesn't want to be a miserable old shit like him was a real wake-up call.

Her first “ticket” to life was obviously the coin from Jaqen Hagar. This was her second, and getting that from the Hound who had seen and been through so much with Arya, as well as seeing the devastating horror of rampant death and destruction all around her brought that message home loud and clear. She doesn't want that life, his life. That life which is death. She is choosing now to take what she wants. And what does she want? Well, that brings me to that Game of Thrones Spotify list and those clues that D&D talked about.

While going through the songs, and having watched this particular video clip the day before, I was pretty damn shook when I got to the end of “No One Knows” By Queens of the Stone Age. Here are the complete lyrics. However, what I want to focus on is the chorus and the outro as we close out the song.

[Chorus]

And I realize you're mine Indeed a fool am I And I realize you're mine Indeed a fool am I

[Outro]

Heaven smiles above me What a gift here below But no one knows A gift that you give to me No one knows

That’s right.

What a gift here below / but no one knows / A gift that you give to me / No one knows

The Hound gave Arya a gift. Arya was No One.

No one knows a gift that you give to me. The Hound gave No One (Arya) a gift (life). And what had the show made clear—as I’ve already shown? Gendry represents life.  What happened prior to Arya choosing life, she had rejected Gendry’s proposal because she was choosing death.

Now look at the chorus again.

And I realize you’re mine / Indeed a fool am I / And I realize you’re mine / Indeed a fool am I

Arya’s choice. As Maisie Williams said, Arya would be torn during the season. She was torn between choosing life and death. Arya made her choice. Life. Sure, life doesn’t necessarily mean Gendry… but so much points to that it does, doesn’t it? It’s just all adding up.

His Wife

Quite a few people noticed this one. While Arya was reeling through the destruction of King’s Landing, trying to get out of there alive, she ran into someone who looked vaguely familiar. He wasn’t a character we knew; he was just a random citizen of King’s Landing who was desperately trying to survive, and more importantly, he was desperately trying to find his wife.

Why he looked familiar to so many is because, quite frankly, he looked like Gendry from earlier seasons before he’d cut his hair from when he and Arya had traveled together in their youth. There were countless tweets and comments on Tumblr about how much this guy looked like him. That was interesting enough, I mean, of all actors to cast in this small role, they cast someone who has the same coloring and hairstyle as Gendry opposite Arya from when they were together before. (Although, really, the man didn’t look all that much like him. It was just that in the quick flash of time we saw him in the chaos, the similarity to Gendry is what was striking.)

However, we then get to the why of the scene at all? Why have a guy who looks so much like the Gendry of old—the Gendry that Arya first fell in love with (per Maisie Williams)—grab onto Arya in the midst of all this madness as if to momentarily ground her and ask for his wife? It’s almost like it’s a reminder that the last time Arya saw Gendry, it was that he asked her to marry him!

But, wait, there’s more! This Gendry-look-alike’s wife’s name is Alanna. OK… and? Well, you know, Alanna sounds quite similar to Lyanna. As in Lyanna Stark, Arya’s aunt, the one that Arya is compared to quite a bit in the books—if not in the series, but there are quite a bit crossover book readers/show watchers. Oh, and Lyanna also just happened to be the woman that Robert Baratheon—that would be Gendry’s father—was in love with.

Yeah. A reach, maybe. But it’s yet *another* reach and if you keep on reaching, eventually you’re going to get your target. We’ve been reaching quite a bit.

Third Time's The Charm

So, despite everything in the narrative pointing to Arya choosing Gendry, the offer presented and accepted this third time, it didn’t happen. In fact, there was just a blip of interaction between the two in their “scene” in the final episode. That scene was in the Dragonpit where they were surrounded by others and basically didn’t actually interact at all. All that happened is that after Arya threatened Yara, we got a clear focus on Gendry’s reaction which many a fan interpreted as ‘Yup, that’s my murder bae!'

OK, I’m half-joking here, however, they did make a point of including Gendry reacting differently to her threat than everyone else, and his look did rather read like, ‘she’s so cool.’  And Gendry was looking over at her, making sure that he got a good, nice view. So, what was the point of that? Really, what was it? I can’t think of any other than to remind viewers that, yes, Gendry still has the feelings for Arya.

Despite what she told him to do, he sure isn’t ready to just move on. Nope.  Of course, that was made clear in another way, sartorially-speaking. Gendry is the fourth male (now) legitimate Baratheon we’ve seen, and thus attired in the official House Baratheon garb. His, however, is the first to have claw marks on the shoulders slashing into the leather. Perhaps (as in, absolutely!) letting the world (as in, Arya) know that he belongs to a certain wolf. Outfitted as such, is it that much of a stretch of imagination that once the votes were cast, Gendry had a word with the newly-appointed King about his lack of qualifications to be the lord of Storm's End?

After all, Storm’s End clearly has been running fine without a lord there since Gendry showed up all nicely garbed. That is something we actually can be pretty certain of. How? Well, no one was lord there for quite some time which means a steward was probably in charge and quite capably so, definitely better than Gendry would be–again, he has literally zero no-how in the lord-ing department. We know all this about Storm’s End because we were literally told that by Daenerys when she legitimized Gendry. She asked (in so many words):

Hey, who’s running Storm’s End? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? No one knows? Yeah, that’s what I thought. Here, you! Yeah, you, kid who has zero experience, no-how, nothing, you can have it since your daddy was a big ole whore. No big. It makes me look good.

Oh, and speaking of that, not only was Gendry a Fleabottom-bastard-recently-made-legitimized lord with no lordly training, he was legitimized by the Mad Dragon Queen. There’s not going to be too many people who are going to be all in for this guy as the Lord Paramount of one of the biggest regions of Westeros for those two reasons alone.

Finally, remember, as he told Arya when he saw her after he was given the title and the lands and all of it:

None of it will be worth anything if you’re not with me.

They both survived the Battle of Winterfell. She survived the Battle of King’s Landing. And here they are meeting once again. Third time’s the charm.

She Begins Where He Ends

This is a very small thing, and may likely not mean anything at all, but… in the first episode, Arya saw Gendry in her first scene. He wasn’t looking at her, so he didn’t see the way she was looking at him, but she definitely saw him and she liked what she saw.

In Gendry’s last scene, he was looking at Arya. She wasn’t looking at him, so, like him in her first scene, she didn’t see the way he was looking at her, but,he definitely saw her and he liked what he saw.

Again, a small thing, but that bookend of their scenes—Arya’s first was her looking at Gendry, admiring him, and his was looking at Arya, admiring her—had a lovely symmetry to it.

Another reach? Sure, but they add up.

She Wore His Colors

In the first and second episode of the final season, Arya is wearing a cute capelet (her version of a cloak) and the colors are those of House Stark: Grey with the fur, a mixed shade of grey and white. In the final episode, when she tells her family that she is going West of Westeros and when we see her on the bow of her ship, she is wearing a similar capelet. There is a very distinct difference, however.

The material of the capelet is now black, and the fur is a beige-ish gold color. You may recognize those colors as described above from the “Cloak of Protection” section. They are the colors of House Baratheon. Also from that section:

Cloaks are a major symbol of marriage in Westeros.  During weddings, a bride wears a cloak of her house (called “the maiden’s cloak”) and during the ceremony, the maiden’s cloak is removed and the groom places a cloak of his house and colors upon her shoulders. This signifies her moving from one house to another and that his bride is now under the protection of her husband and his house.

In addition to the capelet now bearing House Baratheon colors, the prominence of her dagger and sheathe—both golden in color—highlight even more so the gold of House Baratheon next to the black of the capelet (cloak) that she is wearing. (Here’s a comparison of the colors.)

In other words, after seeing Gendry at the Dragonpit—after seeing Gendry upon deciding to choose life—the very next time we see Arya, she is wearing his House colors. Arya Stark is no longer wearing the colors of House Stark, instead she is wearing the colors of House Baratheon. The only time a maiden wears the cloak of a house other than their own is when they join that house which they do… by marrying into that house.

Arya doesn’t generally follow the rules, but, again… added to everything else, yeah.

The Ship That Was Promised

This is another reach admittedly, but I think it maybe, might (probably doesn’t) mean something. Arya and Gendry are two characters who were both connected with ships/boats coming and going by the end of the series. Yes, you had the Greyjoys, but they were about the sea, ships in general. And other related characters, who were seaworthy (Davos, for instance), but again, it was in generalities. But with Arya, the fourth season ended on her on the ship leaving Westeros and then arriving on that same ship in Braavos in season 05. It was an important part of her journey, partially, because when she left Westeros, she was essentially leaving Arya Stark behind her.

The same was the case for Gendry. When he left our screens for an extended absence of time, it was on a boat and normally such a thing wouldn’t be a big deal. However, Gendry on a boat became quite the meme; it even made it onto the show when he returned. ("Thought you might still be rowing.")

Now, Arya is embarking on an extended journey on a sea vessel, just like Gendry. Once again, the two are on similar paths. Yeah, it’s a small thing, and likely this one really doesn’t mean anything, but it caught my attention.

Circles and Secrets

This is for the book readers mostly and could honestly be one of the reasons why we didn’t get the definitive, ‘yes, Arya and Gendry are married.' Although, we did get the well-known quote from the first episode from Robert to Ned:

I have a son, you have a daughter. We'll join our houses.

Arya and Gendry being wed is definitely the payoff to that line. However, D&D simply did not seed the parallels between Arya/Gendry and Robert/Lyanna that are lain throughout the books into the television series, so that payoff that will almost definitely be there in ASOIAF just wouldn’t land in the show even with that line from the Pilot.

Here's the thing, Gendry and Arya are essentially the getting-it-right version of Robert Baratheon and Lyanna Stark. Gendry is strong, stubborn, handsome like his father, but he’s also good and loyal and knows to treat his Northern lady with respect and love for exactly who she is. Arya is strong, willful, beautiful like her aunt, but she’s also loyal and steady and would never betray her vows, her home and leave the rest of the world to destroy itself.

Robert and Lyanna began this story and it ended quite badly. I think that George R.R. Martin–with all of his foreshadowing and seed-dropping (I mean, he wrote a love song for Arya and Gendry) intends for them to *finish* this story happily. Arya and Gendry joining the Stark and Baratheon Houses brings the story full circle. They are the ship that is promised.

Now as for the couple that got it wrong, let's talk about Lyanna for a bit. As I mentioned above, it didn't happen much in the show, but in the books, there are quite a few comparisons between Arya and her Aunt Lyanna. And what did her Aunt Lyanna do? She defied convention and ran off with a married man, an enemy of her family, left her betrothed in the dust and secretly wed him. Now, obviously all of Westeros didn’t know this. They believed that she had been kidnapped, but Lyanna damn well knew what she had done. And a war—and so, so, so much more happened—because of her actions.

While the circumstances aren't the same, if Gendry did give up his wardenship and Storm’s End (I doubt he would have given up the legitimacy) to be with Arya, that would have caused quite a stir. Arya marrying him despite him doing so might cause an even bigger stir of its own. And, naturally, she wouldn’t want the fuss of all of that, so a secret wedding may have taken place… but again, it’s something that we didn’t see.

Because as I stated above, Arya doesn’t follow the rules. That’s not her. So, yes, I could absolutely see Arya deciding to follow in her aunt's footsteps and marrying Gendry, who like her, was officially a noble in name only and ready and happy to just live an unencumbered life without restrictions.

So we didn’t see it happen on the show, but all signs point to it happening in between the Dragonpit meeting and her telling her family that she was going West of Westeros. Again, a reach? I don’t think so. I just don’t.

To the End of the World

After Arya and Gendry re-connected in the first episode, Maisie Williams said something very interesting in one of the “Behind the Scenes” clips about Arya’s feelings for Gendry.

I think for Arya, it's remembering who she was before. Like, I used to be that girl and that's who I was in love with and thought I would follow to the end of the World.

As the series ends and when we last see Arya, where is she going? West of Westeros. Yes, West of Westeros, which as far as anyone knows, yup, that is the end of the World.

Interesting turn of phrase used in retrospect, isn’t it?

Happily Ever After

Yes, a bittersweet ending for a show like Game of Thrones was always in the cards. However, I find it hard to believe that not one Stark, hell, not one main character received a romantic endgame after eight seasons! Sam and Gilly did, but (a) Sam is a supporting character and (b) the resolution of their love story (i.e., the two coming together as a pair and staying as such) was back in season 05.

So, yes, not one of our main characters got a happy, romantic endgame... except for possibly Arya Stark. She is the only one who had a love story that developed during the season and with someone with which the foundation was there. The seeds of the endgame nature of her love story with Gendry was essentially planted in the Pilot with Robert's line to Ned about their children that never had pay-off in the series. (But definitely will in the books!)

With everything else that happened between the two, all of the subtext, the costume points of reference and the behind the scenes interviews and quotes, well, I think it does add up to Arya indeed being that one character who got her full-on happily ever after.

I mentioned the D&D GOT Spotify playlist above. There are a few other songs that clearly reference Arya and Gendry (”Howlin’ For You,” "No One Knows" (already referenced), "Killer Wolf," "The Time is Now," "Devil's Spoke" (possibly). Now, there is one more song that screams an Arya/Gendry endgame with references to wolves and packs and howling winds (a.k.a. the fury of a storm). It’s about a youth who’s lost to the wild, but brought back to humanity by love. A restlessness remains, but a wolf can never be tamed. Still....

Here are some key phrases (Here are the full lyrics) ...

I heard my mother shouting through the fog / It turned out to be the howling of a dog / Or a wolf to be exact / The sound sent shivers down my back / But I was drawn into the pack

When suddenly a girl wandered aimlessly /But she didn't seem to see / She was listenin’ for the angels just like me

So I took her by the arm / We settled down upon a farm / And raised our children up as gently as you pleased / And now my fur has turned to skin / And I've been quickly ushered in / To a world that I confess I do not know

But I still dream of running careless through the snow / An' through the howlin' winds that blow / Across the ancient distant flow / It fill our bodies up like water till we know

There’s another very key thing to bear in mind that I found quite, quite interesting. The song is called “Furr.” That title clearly references the narrator (a male, but still, clearly in this case would be Arya) being a wolf. The group name is Blitzen Trapper. Blitzen is, of course, famously known as one of the reindeer who pulled Santa’s sleigh. Yes, science has now proven that all of Santa’s reindeer were likely female as male reindeer shed their antlers in December, however, it is highly unlikely that when the tale was first told that such was known therefore we’re going with the original conception that Blitzen is indeed male. And since Blitzen is known as a male reindeer, well, another name for a male deer is a… stag.

So, not only does the song itself alone howl to the winds an Arya and Gendry endgame (it really, really, REALLY does) but the group name + the song title + the meaning of the song literally = The Stag caught the Wolf with his love.

Yeah. Arya and Gendry... Endgame.

In Conclusion…

Over and over I repeated that some of these were a reach, were small things, that they didn’t mean much and I don’t deny that, however… when you add them all up, put them all together, well, it makes quite a compelling argument, I do believe. All of these things are parallels and hints and bits and pieces that when woven together make a very clear picture, and I do think they prove that Arya and Gendry were wed by the time Arya’s ship set sail at series’ end. We just didn't see it happen.

But, but, but… why not make it clear that Arya and Gendry were together in the end? Give us something obviously concrete. The quick conversation between Gendry and Bran, that secret wedding (similar to the Lyanna/Rhaegar one) or… or… at least Gendry on her bed in the cabin as she was getting dressed in the final scenes. Something!

Well, I mentioned one theory at the top. Another is that because D&D saw it so clearly in their minds they didn’t feel there was a need to because all of the signposts were there that they felt the audience would know it was going to happen. We all know how D&D are... they figure the audience will fill in the obvious blanks. Such as how we didn't need to see Arya and Sansa's reaction to finding out who Jon really was. Or Jaime and Bran's initial meeting. Or... or... or... (You know, fill in your blanks...)

However, I don’t think that’s the case because if it were, D&D would have maybe confirmed the two were wed by now. Instead, honestly, I think that they didn’t want it to be concrete. Maybe they deliberately went with the leaving it open for analysis to have it both ways. A single Arya for those wanting her off sailing free and unencumbered by love because “that’s not her,” but also playing fair for those who want the love story to read the clues into the well-lain narrative of a happily-ever-after with Gendry.

Now, there is a third possibility, and this is actually the one that makes the most sense in light of the decisions made with wardrobe, with interviews, with the Spotify playlist, with the Hound=death/Gendry=life, etc. HBO didn’t want Arya to have a definitive romantic endgame in leave their options open for an Arya Stark spin-off. Honestly, that would explain a lot of the narrative decisions that all seemed to lead to a very clear Arya and Gendry happily-ever-after endgame.

And everything with Arya—with Gendry—pointed to that happening for her and for them. D&D would have written, planned everything out most likely before HBO might have put a little whisper in their ear. Since Arya is the only one that allows for a spin-off that would work without any other Game of Thrones actor (aside from Maisie Williams, of course) it makes sense that they would prefer that such a definitive endgame not happen for that specific character.  Alas.

If that is what happened, it doesn’t change the fact that all of the other key points leading up to that definitive endgame *were* indeed in place. Furthermore, until such a spin-off potentially happens nothing says that Arya and Gendry didn't get married. So… Gendry Baratheon and Arya Stark Baratheon, lord and lady in name only, sailing the high seas, living their best lives.

It all adds up; nothing contradicts this theory. It works for me, how about you?

(This was originally posted at GOT_TheUnbroken.)

[sapphicambitions]

Do you mind my asking how you became a witch and what are some good resources to look for it I'm interested in exploring? Also, what would the practice as a whole be called? Witchcraft? Wicca? Sorry if these come off as ignorant. If you're not comfortable answering by all means don't, I won't be offended. I recognize that asking someone about their religious practices might be too personal a question for some people to want to answer.

hey there friend! Happy to talk about it! it’s been a hot minute since ive thought about some of this stuff but i’ll do my best! I’m also still fairly new at being a witch (Since October 2018) and i still have a lot to learn, but I’m more than happy to share my stories. 

So first off, I’m not Wiccan. That’s a whole other thing that I’m not involved in lol. Wiccan and Witch are not mutually exclusive. I use the term pagan to describe myself at times because I have a few deities that I’m devoted to / believe in the gods, but i don’t really follow a specific practice. (i’m not a fan of organized religion lmao) That’s what I like the most about witchcraft, is that it’s deeply personal and everyone goes on their own journey in their craft. :)

I like to refer to myself as a casual witch. I’m not really big on large rituals and heavy duty spell work, (mostly because i don’t have the resources and sometimes my brain don’t work or have enough mental energy). I like small and simple elements of witchcraft I can sprinkle throughout my day. Because witchcraft is all about intention. I like using specific herbs and spices in my cooking for specific intentions (i can’t remember any of them bc I left my book of shadows in my apartment but I’ve got a four page list of herbs & spices and their intentions lol). I like to stir my pasta clockwise for good intentions when I’m cooking. Or counter clockwise when I’m wanting to take away the negative energies. I like to carry a rose quartz in my pocket when I go on a date for positive love vibes. I light specific colored candles for specific intentions: love, luck, home, strength, yah know. I keep a mirror by my front door. Wind chimes on my porch. I do a lot of visualizations and energy work. Using specific lotions and smells. That kind of thing that was easy for me to incorporate into my life. 

Also tbh I love love love rhyming spells and spoken word spells. Doing a whole ass jar spell is like a Lot To Do but I can very easily mumble to myself in my kitchen! I think a lot about the magic in Rainbow Rowell’s Carry On (cause fun fact your craft can be heavily influenced by pop culture if you want it to be and mine totally is) and how there is magic words and phrases. So when I’m brewing tea I say “Bubble, bubble, my tea, not trouble. Bring me peace and make it double.” When I’m showering I hum “Soap and water cleanse me so, take my soul and make it whole” and “As the bubbles run down the drain, so do my troubles and my pain.” I sing the tangled “flower gleam and glow” song to my plants when I water them. When I’m getting ready for bed I mumble “Sleep be sweet, dreams be kind, bring me rest and peace of mind.” When I was in college, before a big exam, I’d braid my hair while chanting “I bind my knowledge to my brain, let me remember without pain, for on this day of my exams, I keep my knowledge close at hand.” Some of these I picked up from tumblr or other witches I know and some of it I came up with on my own. I like to believe our words and intentions have power and I love using it in my craft.

And earlier I mentioned deities. I’ve always been very invested in Greek mythology and felt a connection to the Greek gods (thanks percy jackson) and over the years I’ve come to realize that I actually do believe in them.  Athena & Aphrodite are my main deities, but I do spend time with other goddesses. (And Dionysus, tbh) I’ve done a lot of research into the Triple Goddess, too, and I’m endlessly fascinated by the concept of the Maiden, the Mother, and the Crone. that’s really the part I have the most to learn about, my relationship to the gods. Sometimes my connection to them is stronger and sometimes it’s weaker just cause of where I’m at mentally, but I’ve never felt any judgement from them. I do devotional acts for them & pray & seek out their presence when I can, but like I said earlier I like doing little things, like washing my hair for Aphrodite or writing my journal for Athena or going on a nature walk with my mom for Demeter & Persephone (not that my mom knows that lmao) or waving around a goddamned garden hose in my front lawn to make mist and rainbows for Iris haha. I also have a pretty dope Venus di Milo statue and a Athena Parthenos statue in my room, and I have an Athenian coin pendant that I wear every day. like I said, it’s a very individual and personal journey, but you should still do your research and be respectful when you’re dealing with deities and spirits.

And everything I learned, I learned either from google or via tumblr. If you go through the witchblr tag, or even more specifically the baby witch tag, that kind of thing, there’s a TON of resources to just like, get you started. I like research and reading so I did a ton of research when I got started and made sure I knew what I was getting in to and so I could check some sources against others. Because everyone has different thoughts and opinions. Remember how i said i didn’t like organized religion? That also means there are lots of different interpretations lol. A lot of things stay the same, like the meanings of week days, moon phases, crystals, that kind of thing, but there’s wiggle room especially with kitchen witchcraft??? which never ceases to annoy me??? but i digress lol

And how did I get into it? wellllllllll don’t judge me but.... I watched the Chilling Adventures of Sabrina lmao. Like I’ve ALWAYS been interested in it but I never knew where to begin and didn’t know what I was getting into. Then Sabrina peaked my interest specifically because of hilda and the use of casual witchcraft. The usage of rhyming spells and simple objects like bells and yarn to do spells. It seemed manageable and relatable and enjoyable and I was interested so I dove into tumblr to do research and I’ve been practicing ever since! like I said I still have a long way to go in my journey but honestly I like what I’m doing and enjoy the simplicity and casualness of my craft. It works well for me, especially with all my mental health ups and downs. 

I think it’s at least worth looking into! There’s a lot of good stuff out there to sink your teeth in to, and also just be aware of the world you know? Watch out for TERF witches cause they are literally the worst and suck ass and I hate them. 

Good luck on your journey and I’m wishing you all the best vibes!

[gothytrash]

rules: tag people you want to get to know better!!!

tagged by: @transseven (kinda im just bored and wanna do it)

your name and what you would’ve named yourself: finn...and i named myself that:))) i considered kalen and max also but finn felt right. might fuck around n change it again tbh

astrological sign (sun/moon/rising if you know them): virgo sun/libra moon/aries rising

when did you join tumblr and why: 2012 maybe?? i was a ~hipster aesthetic blog~ until i became the mess i am today

top 5 fandoms: i dont consider myself really IN any fandoms but,,,mortal kombat, overwatch, polygon, animal crossing, and unus annus are things im really into rn!!

top 5 films: i really dont watch movies much um....jawbreaker, my neighbor totoro, howl's moving castle, spirited away, clueless, pretty much anything ghibli or disgustingly 90's

go-to song when you want to feel something: i have a playlist that is all megan thee stallion for when im extra mentally ill and need to feel like a bad bitch again

what’s your religion or faith if you have one: i don't feel strongly about any really?? i used to relate to wicca when i was younger until i realized a lot of it is stolen closed practices and cultural appropriation and it just didnt feel...right i guess?? im actually a very spiritual person in private though u might not guess it from the everything about me!! im just still not sure if there is a religion i would feel totally comfortable in, although buddhism has always intrigued me!!

a song that makes you feel seen: dog teeth by nicole dollanganger ... teen idle by marina ... vienna by billy joel ...

if you could have any career: i'd love to perform, idk what but i just wanna create for people!!! even as a youtuber, a streamer, or more original performing like in a band or doing drag i just..love to be seen and make people happy:)))

do you have a type: um not really??? hot alt queers to the front of course, and i prefer someone else to be able to take the lead in most things, but that rarely factors into my attraction. if u cute u cute and i will kiss u

what does my heart/soul yearn for: to feel cared for:))) to be a first choice:))) independence:)))

if you had to describe yourself in 5 words to someone: blunt, compassionate, easygoing, impulsive, ditzy

favorite subjects in school: music, english, and forensics

where does your soul feel the most at home: anywhere there is fresh air and some peace and quiet

top 5 fictional characters: mileena, yuri, dva, kuromi, howl

top 3 moments in a show that made you ugly cry: FUCK um. many moments in the promised neverland i cant even pick one so just the show as a whole....the abortion scene in sex education......and also all of your lie in april just so much of it

earth, the sun, the moon or the stars: the stars

favorite kind of weather: that time in either fall or spring when its perfect sweater weather, the sun is shining but the breeze is cool enough that u don't sweat at all, and it stays that way until the sun goes down:') and everything smells so nice....it's different for spring and fall but they both smell lovely

top 3 kins: mileena, yuri, and kuromi

favorite medium of art: to do? graphite or digital bc im bad and must erase a lot! to enjoy? all of it literally all art makes my heart go whoosh

introvert/extrovert/ambivert: ambivert

favorite literary quote: i had to search so hard for this bc i couldnt remember it all but my fave book in my early teens was across the universe by beth revis and i always really liked this quote idk why: " I stare at the stars... And even though there are so many and they look so close together, I know they are light years apart. The glitter in the sky looks as if I could scoop it all up in my hands and let the stars swirl and touch one another, but they are so distant, so very far apart, that they cannot feel the warmth of each other, even though they are made of burning. This is the secret of the stars, I tell myself. In the end, we are alone. No matter how close you seem, no one else can touch you."

some of your favorite books: i dont read as much as i used to so most of the books i loved are young adult books but: the crank series by ellen hopkins, the painter from shanghai by jennifer cody epstein, every day by david levithan, i am the messenger by marcus zusak

if you could live anywhere in the world where would it be?: i want to travel as much as possible, but i think i'll always wanna come home to canada. maybe not where i live now, but canada just feels the most like home and id love to live somewhere beautiful here

if you could live in any time in history when would it be?: i mean i guess my gay ass is in the most ideal timeline right now, but bigotry and such out of the picture i would have fucked w the 70s so hard....big hair big shoes and just not giving a fuck??? gimme

if you could play any instrument masterfully what would it be?: guitar or piano are obvious choices but tbh id be an iconic saxophone player

if you have one, what mythological god or goddess do you have a connection to?: artemis and apollo were the first deities i was drawn to when i started my craft and figuring out religion and such, but recently i have been very drawn to persephone and dionysus??

lastly, favorite recent selfie from your camera roll: (i never take selfies this is the most up to date pic i have and its bad but oh well)

i'm not gonna tag anyone bc i dont have friends but pls do it if u wanna!! i wanna know yall better!!!

[sometimesrosy]

I saw an interesting thing on twitter. So jason posted a pic with eliza and a new girl saying “love seeing these two together. You know and love one (which is 101% clarke) and you’ll know the other one”. That girl on tw remarked the fact that jason didn’t say the same thing for the other girl. He did’t add “love” for her character too. He just said that we will know her. So maybe she’s an antagonist or she’s part of the leaders of the new earth Or someone related to clarke and who will (1)

betray her ? ( bc why shouldn’t we love her?) And that makes me pretty confident of the fact that she won’t be her new love interest. Bc why should we always jump to conclusion? As you said, the 100 isn’t a romantic comedy so not every character has to be the “new love interest” But ye who knows (2)

The thing is, it is true that sometimes new characters are romantic interests. So there’s always the possibility. Or love interests for OTHER characters. I mean Diyoza is closer to being a love interest for Kane than for Clarke or Bellamy, but when fandom sees a character, they immediately relate it to their OTP.

Before season 4 people were freaking out about B/E as a possibility. And I couldn’t tell them no because yeah it was a possibility. I actually refused to talk about it, because with shipping, there was no way to talk about it as part of the story, only as part of everyone’s personal panic about their OTP being killed.

I really love shipping. It’s fun. But if you want to understand the story instead of just getting lost in your ship, you have to be able to look at that story OUTSIDE of the romance. At least in a story that is not a romance genre story. Because a romance genre story has shipping at it’s center. The reason WHY you tell a romance genre story IS the ship. As long as you have the right, canon romance, you can be accurate with your analysis through shipping. Because that’s the point of the story. 

HOWEVER, in science fiction, like The 100, the point of the story is NOT the romance. It is the action, adventure, survival and science fiction. And if we only interpret it through shipping, we will NOT be capturing the whole story and we’ll get lost and lose the story thread.

It gets tricky, though, because, while The 100 is NOT a romance, there are a lot of romance side stories in it. People have gotten very disappointed, though, following those side stories as if they were the main story, expecting the HEA and for the romance to continue to be a main narrative. But, so far, all the side romances have faded to the side to become part of other stories, or died, and turned into character development for the mains. 

It gets even trickier though, because there is one ship that has not faded or died, but has in fact gotten stronger and stronger, more romantic, and more important to the central story. YES OF COURSE IT’S BELLARKE. 

Bellarke IS the central romance of the story. You CAN analyze this story through Bellarke. HOWEVER it does not follow the conventions of the romance genre. It does have a lot of tropes, so we get our expectations up, but it doesn’t follow the pacing, which leads to the frustrations. And also the WAY it relates the romance to the narrative is different.

In a romance genre story, everything leads back to the central goal of the story– getting the lovers together. So it’s a lot more likely that new characters are there to either aid or hinder the romance story. ALL ROMANCE STORIES HAVE ROMANTIC OBSTACLES or it’s not a romance story. ALL romance stories have a point where you think they won’t get together, where the stakes are high, so it’s imperative you have characters or narratives that get in the way, whether another lover or disapproving parents or a war.

But in a science fiction, post apocalyptic, now space colony story, especially where we’re meeting an entire new culture, chances are the the new people are all there to tell the new story of the new planet. We MUST have worldbuilding. We must have a new society and that means lots of new characters. 

COULD the new characters be part of the story that hinders or aids Bellarke in getting together. Yes, I have to say. Yes. But it’s more likely that they are there for worldbuilding, to be The Big Bad, to be sympathetic characters, to help Clarke and Bellamy on their way to being the heroes. Also note that I said hinders OR aids. Having another love interest is only one tiny possibility for any of the new characters. As far as we know, they’re Diyoza calling Clarke Bellamy’s girlfriend, right? Or Cooper who was probably jealous of them and their relationship to Octavia (that just occurred to me, that’s why she was such a bitch.) Or McCreary who wants to torture and kill them. Or Vinson who never meets them. Huh. Look at that, you CAN analyze the new characters by their relationship to Bellarke. Diyoza was NEVER a romantic interest. But she WAS a parallel to both Bellamy (terrorist or hero?) and Clarke (never know which side you’re on–could say the same to you.)

Shipping blindly makes us jump to conclusions about what things mean. And sometimes, when our conclusions match the story, we might be right. But if you close your eyes to the rest of the story and only look at the romance, getting things right is mainly chance, not analysis. Maybe that’s why people think nothing in stories makes any sense and it’s all random and we’re reaching or delusional when we come up with evidence to support our theories. Because when you analyze a story with an inaccurate genre or hypothesis…. well, it won’t make sense or connect. When it does connect, you won’t see HOW it got there, because it didn’t get there through your logic process. You just got lucky that your theory matched for a time, you hit on one storythread, but don’t understand how that thread is supported by the rest of the narrative. So the whole story seems random, and willy nilly, the writers are bad, they hate you and want you to suffer. I think you might FEEL the inevitability of Bellarke, but because your theory is not supported by canon, it all seems very much left to chance and the whims of a hateful god. 

So how do you follow Bellarke’s romance without losing track of the story????

Easy. SHIP, yes do. But not blindly. If you see the romance? Ok. Double check with the canon to see if you’re making it up. Find the scenes where the tropes match up, where the cinematography supports your theory, like with eye contact and closeups and touches. Yes those are evidence. But take it further. Look for dialogue. Look for interactions with others. Look for CHANGES. 

Once you find those ship supportive narrative details, now take off those shipgoggles and STOP looking for romance. What is the overall story? What are the themes and over arching questions? What is the main objective and how are they kept from that? Recognize that independent character development is important and check on Clarke and Bellamy’s growth. What are their goals, weaknesses, strengths? How do the other characters impede or help them develop? How do they change? Check on the characters OUTSIDE of Clarke and Bellamy, because they are important, too. What are their stories? 

You know, I think sometimes that people think if they examine the story outside of their OTP it will be boring and not romantic and not interesting, but if I JUST looked at the onscreen interaction of Bellarke and romance in that, I would be lost. Because the characters are constantly struggling and changing and regressing and learning new things and being afraid and suffering and healing, I would lose the perspective of what is going on in the story as a whole. The GOAL. Where it’s heading.

BUT because I’m a boring english teacher doing boring english teacher stuff (ugh not symbolism again! the curtains are red because they’re red, sharon, it’s not meaningful,) I figured out that the symbolism in this show, the head and the heart, the dark and the light, the yin/yang, the chess king/queen, actually sets Bellarke up as soulmates, the backbone of the story, the main relationship, the mother and the father, which has, as the seasons have gone on, been CONFIRMED by both the narrative and the author. While y’all were flailing around thinking CL was endgame and your OTP was dead, I was like, no no, Bellarke IS the love story and they MUST be together. 

By NOT shipping when you analyze The 100, you actually get much more shipping content. That’s why my theories have not wavered in 4 years, but have only gotten more detailed, complex, and confirmed. 

Let me tell you why.

Because The 100 is ABOUT Bellarke. It is, actually, The Bellarke Story. Because while not every single story line is ABOUT their romance, almost every single storyline leads back to Bellarke. To their partnership, how they need each other, and how they save and redeem humanity. Together. Which means, when I look at other ships, I can connect them to Bellarke. When I look at the big bads, I can connect it to bellarke. When I look at they symbolism, it goes to Bellarke. When I look at worldbuilding, yes it helps develop bellarke. When I look at Clarke alone, it goes back to bellarke. When I look at Bellamy alone it goes back to bellarke. When I look at Raven, it goes back to bellarke. When I look at Octavia, it goes back to bellarke. Jaha? Bellarke. MW? Bellarke. The grounders? Bellarke. Allusions? Bellarke. Psychology? Bellarke. Mythology? Bellarke. 

And then Bellarke feeds back into the plot and science fiction and hero’s journey and defeating the enemies and redemption of humanity.

If this fandom paid attention to the boring english class stuff, they’d feel a lot less anxious about Bellarke.

OOOHHHH!

Look at this guys. All those people calling me and you delusional when we come up with evidence for Bellarke? They have an investment in us NOT doing boring english teacher stuff. Because the boring english teacher stuff supports Bellarke and debunks their OTPs as endgame. 

The story, the narrative, when using standard, boring, academic discipline and analysis IS ABSOLUTELY BELLARKE’S LOVESTORY. I’m not delusional. I’m not drunk or on drugs or the devil or brainwashing people. All of which I have been accused of.

I am a boring old english teacher and literary geek. 

And it is being the boring non shipper sci fi geek that has led me to understand that The 100 is the most epic, incandescently romantic post apocalyptic science fiction survival story I’ve ever seen or read. Bellarke saved humanity together, and they’re going to REDEEM humanity through their love.

This is mythic in nature. 

And that’s why I will never stop being a boring old english teacher and sci fi geek. Because I see stuff other people don’t. And it’s glorious.

If you ignore the “boring” stuff that isn’t shipping, you miss out on all the deep, intense romance. I think people think I’m doing this blog to give people faith, but I am so not. I’ve given up, I don’t care what they think. Their antishipping doesn’t change the story. I’m doing it because I am IN AWE of this love story, and the more I analyze it like a boring english teacher, the more excited I get for the next part of the story. OMG, it looks so good. I am simply geeking out. I’m not a shipper, I’m a geek. And I am OBSESSED with this science fiction love story.

[ravenslynch]

Important question: do you HC Ronan’s family from Northern Ireland or the Republic bc in my experience those are wildly different cultures and it changes everything for me if Ronan’s family is actually from Belfast and not like Claire or something

omg im so sorry this got lost! Glad to have found it though, this is a really interesting question. I mean, both probably? As in, I probably think about him as having family in Belfast but also having cousins etc. in the Republic too. You’re right that Niall growing up in Belfast is definitely a very particular cultural experience which could be read to have significant political and historical implications about his character and his family. For that reason, I do generally maintain that Niall is from Belfast and his parents raised him there. But I also like the opportunity for the family to have connections to the Republic as well.

Due to how small Ireland is, I have 3 great grandparents and a grandfather from Belfast, but I also have roots in Kerry/Galway/Leitrim/etc., although at least ¾ grandparents, if not all, probably ended up spending the majority of their lives in Dublin, as have both of my parents and myself. So it isn’t wild to have a mix of different places in his background. I mean they’re different places, and what perspective you’re given from being Irish Catholic in Belfast vs. Clare is totally different for sure. If you visit Belfast and then visit Clare, you’re also going to find that they’re undoubtedly very different places. But also being from Belfast doesn’t mean you don’t have ties to people or history in Clare, even if your cultural experience of your Irishness is in a completely different context and is thus subject to a very particular political/government landscape. Does that make sense? 

Just looking at the Lynch name, you can find dual origins for it. In old Irish families, in numerous counties throughout the island, it was used as an anglicisation of the Irish name O'Loinsigh. But also the Norman de Lench family, who came over in the 12th century with Strongbow, then gave their name the Hiberno treatment (lol where’s the truth what came first which way is up) and it changed to Lynch, and they were counted as one of the Tribes of Galway by the 15th century. Like to be up front, this is v basic research into the Lynch family name on my part, but just goes to show that there are families in every single county that carry the name, and there are different historical directions you can go with that to incorporate different elements of folklore/mythology/history/etc. into the Lynch family makeup which is a v good time imo.

However, I do think that Niall’s Belfast background is meant to be significant. In what way, I don’t know. It could just be Maggie thinking “Oh I’ll make him have an Irish Catholic origin story in Belfast, probably coinciding with the troubles, to further emphasis his rebellious nature while also allowing me access to that sweet Irish mythology/all those Yeats quotes(?) and Abbey Theatre references(??) that I love” which is quite the tactic and a whole other discussion. But regardless of why she chose Belfast, she did settle on Niall being from Belfast, and you’re right that that is a culturally significant place to grow up, particularly for someone of the age bracket we can only assume via guess work Niall was in. So I think it can be important to maintain that connection and I like that it can be used as a way of demonstrating that history and exploring its potential impact.

Like there are numerous hcs/fics I’ve come across that maintain his/Ronan’s Belfast connection, but don’t seem to get the significance of it at all, which is super jarring. Like you can’t just make them live in the North and treat them as living in some colour-by-numbers/horribly stereotyped version of Ireland™️ - that’s bad enough generally but like the complete lack of understanding of the difference between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland just takes it up a whole other notch. Like there are fics that have a historical setting with Ronan living in Northern Ireland and they Don’t Make A Lick Of Historical Sense without an awareness of the issues. They just don’t. It’s like a whole other level to the au that the au isn’t aware of. 

But that being said, I’m currently in the rough stages of a fic that gives Ronan other branches of the family in other parts of the country too. I mean the cross border family is also an interesting thing from my perspective (although I’m not sure how far I’m going to delve into this yet), and, as mentioned before, I want to use elements of mythology tied to different parts of the country, so I think that can add to the narrative too, while maintaining Niall’s identity.I’m probably brushing over things and over simplifying things but you’re right that there’s a difference in a character being read as being from the North or as being from the Republic. I just want people to keep this in mind generally, as long as people do a bit of research into these things/ask an Irish trc fan such as myself or @arbores–loqui–latine for genuine Irish info from a genuine Irish source, the Lynch family background/cultural positioning can be a super interesting thing, probably regardless of where you trace them as being from, though again they’re two very different things. Apologies for totally spitballing with complex issues surrounding Irish identity and history, this probably isn’t my best work tbh, though very much worthwhile to consider. 

[laureneruimy]

roots

The starting point of this project is the idea from chapter 2 unit 1 that time isn’t linear and History (as in a specific point in time) repeats itself. From this, I studied (from some of my french classes) the moral of apologs and the fact that nowadays it’s still relevant, for example Le Pouvoir des Fables by Jean De La Fontaine can be applied to the overmediatisation of the american presidential elections, or the quick news format (to avoid boring people).

But the fact that something is always relevant can’t be proven from a text this recent so I decided to study older apologs.

In Le Pouvoir des Fables, La Fontaine refers to another fable by Aesop, which is from Antic Greece. Myths and Apologs having the same principle, I decided to work on how their moral is still relevant in the XXIe century. After comparing and associated different myths from different sources (Bible, Edda, Ancient Greece…) to recent events, I connected the two eras. But it was obvious that this area was way too wide to study. After centering my research on greek mythology, I had to keep in mind the adaptation from greek to latin (from zeus to jupiter and from the Iliad to the Metamorphosis) and then, the notion of translation/adaptation rose.

The choice of the myth of Cassandra was made from the comparing phase. At this point, I compared it to articles on global warming, how scientists were warning political leaders about this main issue and how they’ve been ignored for more than a decade with arguments like « it’s still snowing it’s not getting warmer !! ».

While studying the myth, the issue of translation and adaptation arose again. Cassandra first appear in the Iliad. Like every greek myth, it is an orally told story (a poem) and it was written down by Homer in two volumes : the Iliad and the Odyssey. There is a first level of adaptation and translation, from orally told to written down. What is interesting to note at this point is : Who is Homer ? Or, what is Homer ? Homer isn’t one author, we found out recently that it was a pen name for more than one person which implies that the original style was quite different but with the multiple translations and adaptations, the style has been unified as if written by one person.

The Iliad being known worlwide since the Ve BC, I had to recenter my research around one specifid language or country. Being french and having studied the Iliad in my main language, I chose to study the Iliad and its french translations and adaptations. But because Cassandra is an Iliad character, I also had to  look into visual representations from ancient Greece to nowadays.

It is interesting to note that the first representation of Cassandra, from 520-510 BC represents her as a warrior, while there is a switch AC where she is only represented in the scene where she is raped after the loss of Troy ; which rise the notion of feminism in the myth of Cassandra.

While the content of the poem don’t change, the translators took liberty in the style, changing sentences or words creating new versions every time where the focus change depending on the century’s sensibility.

Since I focused on France, and, struggled to find a time where women were seen more as warrior than victims (example of Joan of Arc that was burned at the stake and considered crazy), I looked into written pieces that could fit a wide range of female characters.

I could talk about Les Liaisons Dangereuses by Laclos (1782), the two opposing characters being women one manipulative and one too naive. It is also interesting to note the audience’s reaction that pushed Laclos to add a preface specifying that this book exist only to « warn » young ladies of villains, to protect them, which is interesting because nowadays the main character seems to be the « villain » and how, despite being a woman, she succeed in her schemes and got punished for it (the end does seems to me like it was taken from greek tragedies).

But we can also talk about Emile Zola and his serie Les Rougons-Macquarts, where Zola presents an interesting range of female characters from the lowest classes to the highest ones under the Second Empire. In literature, Naturalism pretends having the « truest » approach to characters. Zola writes down characters and try not to interfers with their lives and not to put them under his judgment. Which is really interesting for characters like Nana (1880).

Nana is the daughter of Gervaise Macquart and Coupeau, we can catch glimpses of her childhood in L’Assommoir, since then we can see that she isn’t the typical female character. She is harsh, she isn’t modest and she doesn’t bother with conventions, but the author still don’t use badly connoted adjectives to talk about her and dedicate an entire book to her life where we learn she grew up playing Venus in a theater production while she can’t sing or act, but her body is enough for her to get the role. She is also a prostitute, and, live in a rich appartement that one of her lover gave her. She knows that everything she owns is due to her looks and she takes advantage of it in the same way that the main antagonist/protagonist in Les Liaisons Dangereuses do.

While Zola don’t write this book « to warn young ladies » and never offered any judgment of Nana, the book ends badly for the character even if we can’t call it Deus Ex Machina like for Les Liaisons Dangereuses because of the fact that every book of Les Rougon-Macquart ends up dramatically for the characters for very believable reasons (opposing to Les Liaisons Dangereuses that seemed more far-fetched), for example Gervaise from L’Assommoir becomes homeless after Coupeau die in the Asylum and die of hunger in the streets. Nana dies of STD at twenty one during the fall of the Second Empire.

At the same time, these heroines aren’t the only representation of female characters. If I had the hypothesis that myths morales were still relevant at the beginning of the project, it can take other forms, other adaptations/translations.

For example, archetypes.

The word archetype, "original pattern from which copies are made", first entered into English usage in the 1540s and derives from the Latin noun archetypum, latinisation of the Greek noun ἀρχέτυπον (archetupon), whose adjective form is ἀρχέτυπος (archetupos), which means "first-molded", which is a compound of ἀρχή archē, "beginning, origin", and τύπος tupos, which can mean, amongst other things, "pattern," "model," or "type."

Archetypes were first used by Plato in Theory of Ideas, but then, Jung used this concept to frame his practice in 1919, his definition goes from « original pattern from which copies are made » to innate, universal prototypes for ideas and may be used to interpret observations. A group of memories and interpretations associated with an archetype is a complex, like the Cassandra Complex.

Still taking Cassandra as a case of study, the Cassandra archetype or Cassandra complex changed drastically three times but is still based on the mythological character (like most archetype; Hera for example is the original Hero archetype). I looked for informations on the Cassandra complex and its different versions.

In 1963, psychologist Melanie Klein provided an interpretation of Cassandra as representing the human moral conscience whose main task is to issue warnings. Cassandra as moral conscience, «predicts ill to come and warns that punishment will follow and grief arise.» Cassandra’s need to point out moral infringements and subsequent social consequences is driven by what Klein calls «the destructive influences of the cruel super-ego,» which is represented in the Greek myth by the god Apollo, Cassandra’s overlord and persecutor. Klein’s use of the metaphor centers on the moral nature of certain predictions, which tends to evoke in others « a refusal to believe what at the same time they know to be true, and expresses the universal tendency toward denial, [with] denial being a potent defense against persecutory anxiety and guilt. »

This version is close to the mythological character. Cassandra is telling the truth, but because of Apollo she isn’t listened by her audience.

In a 1988 study, Jungian analyst Laurie Layton Schapira, explored what she called the «Cassandra Complex» in the lives of two of her analysands. Based on clinical experience, she delineates three factors which constitute the Cassandra complex: • dysfunctional relationships with the «Apollo archetype», • emotional or physical suffering, including hysteria (conversion disorder) or «women’s problems», • being disbelieved when attempting to relate the facticity of these experiences to others.

Layton Schapira views the Cassandra complex as resulting from a dysfunctional relationship with what she calls the «Apollo archetype», an archetype which refers to any individual’s or culture’s pattern that is dedicated to, yet bound by, order, reason, intellect, truth and clarity that disavows itself of anything occult or irrational.[...] She further states that a «Cassandra woman» is very prone to hysteria because she «feels attacked not only from the outside world but also from within, especially from the body in the form of somatic, often gynaecological, complaints.» Addressing the metaphorical application of the Greek Cassandra myth, Layton Schapira states that: What the Cassandra woman sees is something dark and painful that may not be apparent on the surface of things or that objective facts do not corroborate. She may envision a negative or unexpected outcome; or something which would be difficult to deal with; or a truth which others, especially authority figures, would not accept. In her frightened, ego-less state, the Cassandra woman may blurt out what she sees, perhaps with the unconscious hope that others might be able to make some sense of it. But to them her words sound meaningless, disconnected and blown out of all proportion.

In this definition, the Cassandra archetype can only be a woman, she is opposed to the Apollo archetype again but is seen more negatively, the illogical hysteric part of the duo. I can’t help to find this definition mysogynistic.

In 1989, Jean Shinoda Bolen, Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at the University of California, published an essay on the god Apollo in which she detailed a psychological profile of the ‘Cassandra woman’ whom she suggested referred to someone suffering — as happened in the mythological relationship between Cassandra and Apollo — a dysfunctional relationship with an “Apollo man”. Bolen added that the Cassandra woman may exhibit “hysterical” overtones, and may be disbelieved when attempting to share what she knows. According to Bolen, the archetypes of Cassandra and Apollo are not gender-specific. [...] «As an archetype, Apollo personifies the aspect of the personality that wants clear definitions, is drawn to master a skill, values order and harmony, and prefers to look at the surface rather than at what underlies appearances. The Apollo archetype favors thinking over feeling, distance over closeness, objective assessment over subjective intuition.» Of what she describes as the negative Apollonic influence, Dr. Bolen writes: Individuals who resemble Apollo have difficulties that are related to emotional distance, such as communication problems, and the inability to be intimate... Rapport with another person is hard for the Apollo man. He prefers to access (or judge) the situation or the person from a distance, not knowing that he must «get close up» – be vulnerable and empathic – in order to truly know someone else.... But if the woman wants a deeper, more personal relationship, then there are difficulties... she may become increasingly irrational or hysterical. Bolen suggests that a Cassandra woman (or man) may become increasingly hysterical and irrational when in a dysfunctional relationship with a negative Apollo, and may experience others’ disbelief when describing her experiences.

While in the first definition, the Cassandra character could exist by itself, the other two implies it is a role that exist in a relationship. Here too, the definition seems quite negative for the Cassandra person.

NB. From these definitions, it seems that only women write about the Cassandra archetype.

While reading these definitions, I thought they were straying too far away from the myth and the representation of Cassandra, but also, they were becoming more and more specific. We go from « internal conflict » that can qualify a huge range of situations to « specific relationship between these two exact types of persons and a specific and unique way their relationship have to go » ; which goes against what Jung states in the first part of Man and His Symbols (1964)

« My views about the 'archaic remnants', which I call 'archetypes' or 'primordial images,' have been constantly criticized by people who lack a sufficient knowledge of the psychology of dreams and of mythology. The term 'archetype' is often misunderstood as meaning certain definite mythological images or motifs, but these are nothing more than conscious representations. Such variable representations cannot be inherited. The archetype is a tendency to form such representations of a motif—representations that can vary a great deal in detail without losing their basic pattern. »

What can also be taken out of this is that these definitions allow interpretations and deformations, it takes us back to Plato’s definition of « a modele from which copies are made ».