#dsmp fandom meta
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"oh c!ranboo was such a pussy" "c!ranboo was so annoying they didn't have a single backbone" ARE YOU ALL CRAZY??? DID WE WATCH THE SAME DSMP???
Imagine you're just a guy, you don't remember anything, you don't know where you came from, you don't know where you are, you barely remember who you are and you see you have nothing to your name. You see this big ass nation full of people and PEOPLE ACTUALLY KILLING EACH OTHER - of fucking course you'd keep to yourself and try to not start conflicts!!!
He literally saw how people were hunted and murdered over simple disagreements!!! He literally saw how people got tortured for not doing what they were told!!! Of course he would follow the laws and whatever else he was told. Of fucking course they didn't go around starting fights and punching people around.
They were literally already at the bottom of the food chain and saw what happened to ppl who were already better off than him. Why the fuck would he not just choose to listen to everyone else.
Plus as mentioned before, he didn't know shit. He didn't know how things worked. He didn't know how their community and society worked. He didn't know the rules of their made up countries. Of course he'd just listen to what people told him. What fucking other option did he have.
Yes he was a people pleaser intrinsically from the start and obviously that stayed a part of his character (plus meta reasons and bla bla) but some people are acting like he was the biggest loser for behaving the way he did.
PLUS he got so much more confrontational when he had things to lose??? When he owned things, when he had a husband, WHEN HE HAD A CHILD - he was fucking ready to kill over them no hesitation. He didn't care enough about his own back, but he kept Tubbos like a guard dog that bites off your hand if you make the wrong move.
Do not tell me Ranboo didn't have a backbone and was such a pussy, when he literally would have fought philza about leaving tubbo alone.
C!Ranboo was a teenager with self worth issues in a society where people killed and tortured over the smallest disagreements. I think he was okay to be a bit of a "yes-man"
#like i said ignoring meta reasons for his behavior#not what this is about#i hate the c!ranboo slander in this fandom#like the jokes are funny but sometimes you act like they were a stupid baby#c!ranboo#fancyrambles#dsmp
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*I emerge from several weeks of talking about conceptualizing my cubitos and who else populates their world and what the precise nature of the character is* Hello. Hi. It's time for my twice-yearly thoughts on RPF.
Okay so I was one of the people who was emailing Ao3 about it when we had all of MCYT wrangled into VBRPF going please please please please can we have our own server tags pleeeeeeease I promise it's not just video blogging rpf pleeeeeeease my streamer doesn't have wings in real life pleasssssseeee— and my general stance is that writing about Dream SMP characters is writing about characters, it's not RPF.
Not quite. It's not quite RPF. There is a meaningful distinction there, but it's not a really huge one. That distinction exists and is important to me in how I conceptualize those characters and whether I'm mentally going "okay I need to study lore streams for vocal patterns" for voice research or if I'm going "okay I need to pull up technocord logs " to get techno voice right. What I consider the authoritative canon "character" is a rp guy who spawns withers, not a real streamer in california with a little white dog.
But like I do multifandom exchanges and I wander into them with my cubitos clutched tight in my palms, and I see what other fandoms look like— and importantly, I see what other rpf fandoms look like— and guys, I think that line is legitimately blurry and I think that's literally fine. If I walk into a mulltfandom space with my guys they're going to squint at me and go "rpf fandom— kinda, I think" and I can go "hahaha, not quite", but also I do not blame other people for thinking this is RPF cause like— there are a lot of similarities!
What MCYT tends to classify as "RPF" is directly stories operating in a world where the characters are streamers, they post on twitter, they have lunch with the CEO of twitch. And anyone not writing that, is obviously not writing RPF. And that is not untrue, up to a point, but there is a broad category of fics that tend WAY harder into the pure fictional that are still considered RPF fandoms, if you actually check what other RPF fandoms are doing. There are 599 works in "Demon Shane Madej", many of which are in AUs that have no connection to the real world other than the character relationships, and they're still officially considered RPF.
I have a friend who's in a c-drama rpf fandom that has a rpf ship they really like, and a really popular thing is to take the various characters these actors have played (totally fictional characters from various media) and ship them together. And that's just a crossover of two fictional mediums, but because the thread connecting them is two guys in real life, that's considered RPF.
The banddom tags are absolutely COMPLETELY full of aus that are not set in the real world at all, no connection to the music industry, and what the people in those fandoms will say is like yeah, I have no idea about the real guy, I'm working with a character/persona who's put on for the stage and interviews and personas, and that guy is not REAL, who knows what the real guy is like, but like, I like the persona, I deal with the persona, and then they put that persona in an au where he kisses other personas— and this gets considered RPF.
Wrestler RPF is directly dealing with invented characters who are beating the bloody snot out of each other (hot), they have names like "the undertaker", dealing with scripted storylines, but it still get considered RPF.
And like, I look at myself as I am entering my third year of writing Technoblade most of the time, and what I'm doing here and— there are a lot of similarities in what I'm doing to what other RPF fandoms are doing. I'm a fan of the DSMP character but I'm also a fan of the guy, so I want to play in this extended universe, so I want to include nods to his other stuff. So I will pepper in a cheeky nod to the potato war here, I'll mention hypixel there, etc, kind of make an extended Technoblade universe. And I think that's not RPF (quite) because I'm working from a fictional canon that includes references to the potato war and hypixel etc, I'm just expanding on it, but like, this is literally what my friend in c-drama rpf does as well when she's writing aus about her guy. It's kind of close to RPF. That line is not really obvious to the casual viewer.
So I do not blame anyone else if they look at what we're doing and they go ah, nods wisely, you are a rpf fandom, I've seen this before, and we go um actually, hahah, you'd think that, but no, and then they nod and clearly do not understand how it's not a RPF fandom.
But the thing is it's literally fine if people think that, I think. RPF is not the end of the world. It's just a bunch of people working with people's various performancesonas and worksonas and having fun with it. Spoilers for mythbusters in the real world, but we now know that by the end of mythbusters adam and jamie were not really friends, but most of the mythbusters rpf keeps them as friends because that was the professional persona they provided for the camera, and that was the fictional world the writers wanted to live in. I don't think it's a problem if someone wants to write straight up streamer fic, you do you, and that's unequivocally RPF, but once you start getting into AUs and extended universes and bringing emduo content into qsmp and writing fic based on GIGS streams, the line legitimately gets WAY more blurry.
I think a bunch of fic (including my fic) can start to exist in a "both things are true" state where it's drawing from direct fiction but it's also drawing from a lot of stuff that other fandoms would consider RPF sources, and like, I don't mind this. I don't think it's bad if you're doing this too. We're not getting more DSMP content, the fandom police are not gonna turn up at your house if you want to pull strongly from minecraft monday for your fic. Do schlackity on QSMP. Do a DSMP extended future where tommy gets tubbo to marry him for a bit and then tubbo immediately demands a divorce. The canon of material we have to draw on is not something where big obvious lines exist between "rpf content" and "pure fiction" if you step at ALL outside of canon-compliant. Like fuck, in my very first DSMP longfic I included all these hermit cameos and mcc references which would make it RPF in any other canon, but also I was pulling mainly from the prison arc lore and beats and relationships for the core, which is NOT rpf, and at this point it is not worth the hassle in my head to draw a strong distinction between them.
It's kinda RPF. It's not quite RPF. It's fictional. It's based in the real world. It's all personas. it's drawing on off-lore-stream dynamics. It's drawing on scripted scenes where my streamer had his camera in lore mode. It's COMPLICATED to unpick and I legitimately think that's fine. RPF is literally fine, some people are gonna think we're writing RPF, it's not the end of the world. Just have fun with it.
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When you make it out of the trenches, move on to new fandoms and still occasionally reblog a fanart
But then on a quiet october sunday tommyinnit and jack appear at your doorstep with The Grief
#PLEASE let this be the end#I don't want to see any official dsmp related content ever again aside from some casual joke#no more lore let this be the epilogue#the final verses#there's no more blank pages to be filled please put down the ink and close the book#I want this to be farewell#a sweet acceptance with the hope for future#the meta aspects of that stream#it not being from tommy's pov and not even getting to hear him speak#the way it turns to dawn as he leaves#God this server has a thing for accidental meta details l#it's like the server itself acts as a support character#thank you jack and tommy#you did it right#and now please let the characters and the fandom move on#dsmp#dream smp#c!tommy#ctommy#tommyinnit#jackmanifold#c!jack
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a little ramble about dreblr, meta, and the ever evolving nature of this fandom, i guess?
i don't mean to soapbox, this is mostly just going to be vomiting some thoughts into a post. some recent stuff and a post or two have had me thinking about this fandom and how different it is from when dsmp was ongoing. it's,, pretty obvious that the fandom is quite a bit smaller and less active than that time, and there are generally a lot fewer people actively posting meta and such every day--which isn't necessarily a bad thing, and is natural obviously considering that the dsmp ended almost 2 years ago, but does mean that the culture around (?) meta and such has shifted, as well. it's one of those things too i think that is felt so much more obviously in dreblr, which is an even smaller group within this fandom that formed in response to uhhh being very much considered unwelcome by the greater fandom at the time.
that being said, as is the nature of all fandom, dreblr is still a community of people who are largely strangers who have gathered together because of one commonality: very strong feelings and often very strong opinions on the dream smp and c!dream. and i think when the fandom was more active, the entire fandom felt a lot more like a "pvp enabled" zone, lmao -- it was every other day when there'd be some new batshit meta about c!dream or some stream to react to and analyze and fight people about and whatever. since then, though, with the dsmp gone, the fandom has become quieter -- which i think has allowed some of the variation in opinions within dreblr become more and more obvious? and also become a sort of source of friction.
again, this is normal for any fandom. i'm certainly not here to agree with everyone about c!dream always, lmao. but the vagueing of takes is always more awkward on both sides when it's someone where you share more of the same circles. at the end of the day, it's up to each individual blogger's discretion to choose what they will or won't post on their own blog, but at the same time ... when it comes to the community, just speaking for myself, i don't want a super high barrier of entry when it comes to people feeling like they can't join this fandom unless they've got [xyz] experience or [xyz] takes.
when it comes to actual analysis of the source material, though, keeping meta a safe place for people to say "no, i don't agree with this take because of [xyz]" is important as well, which always raises the question of how said disagreements should be handled. and again, i'm no authority, i'm not here to tell people what to do. personally, when it comes to my own blog, i don't like to post very much directly about any one blogger, but I know I've definitely written posts inspired by specific takes before as well as screenshots of takes from the fandom's heyday, etc. i don't necessarily feel uncomfortable with this ...? but at the same time, i know that vagueposts can be a source of discomfort, especially if they're about your take in particular (speaking from experience) -- so it's you know. not the easiest line to draw, I guess, especially when we're talking about a community where different people are going to have different levels of comfort with what they post on their own blogs and what other blogs do in response to their takes. and whatever.
vagueposting, i think, has been common in the tumblr dsmp fandom for a long time, and especially in dreblr -- direct engagement in the past errr usually went badly, so a habit formed of keeping everything we did kind of within our own spaces (hence why many of us don't even tag c!dream or even dreblr on most of our posts; keeping everything untagged, or keeping the tagging system restricted to our own blogs, limited the possibility of trouble). that being said, vagueing within dreblr has become more common, i think, as disagreements within dreblr have become more and more obvious in the time since the dsmp ended. (just for the obvious example: i think it's a bit of an open secret that i, personally, strongly disagree with much of the common depictions of c!drunz in this fandom. i've written some meta about this before, as well as some responses to meta--which i enjoyed greatly, believe me--but i've also noticed (perhaps coincidence) an uptick in c!drunz positive meta every time i or someone else makes a post that maybe skews more negative. which is normal, don't get me wrong, but also a pattern i've noticed. i'm also very aware that someone the arguments i may bring up as counterarguments or structure my posts around arguing against are based on actual arguments i've seen while in this space, which i'm aware is an easy source of friction within dreblr.) and it's easy to say "don't take it personally when it's just metaanalysis," but that's easier said than done, lmao, especially depending on the tone of the vaguepost and a myriad of other factors.
i'm not saying that i have the answers. or, for that matter, a single answer. the boundaries i set aren't going to be the same as the boundaries other people set, for one, and i have no desire to police what other people do on their own blogs. i do miss, sometimes, the more collaborative and discussion-based meta experience of this fandom when it was more active--i might try to more actively reblog posts (including those i don't necessarily agree with) to discuss this server and these characters, bc at the end of the day that is kind of why we're here. personally, i've always drawn a pretty sharp distinction between fanwork and analysis -- i think it's pretty bad form to criticize people's AUs In General (not that i've not. been guilty of it in the past, but i try at least to keep it to criticizing more general patterns within fanwork; look, i'm not going to claim a moral high ground, i love bitching way too much and should probably get a handle on that but asj;lkfdsaf) but when we're talking meta about the source material, barring shit like. you know, harassment and otherwise abusive behavior, i do consider it more of a free-for-all. at the same time, i know that these standards can lead to newer fans feeling like they're going to be booed out the door for sharing their thoughts, which, i mean, isn't great 😭😭😭 fresh eyes can bring a lot of really cool new insights, and it'd suck pretty damn bad to miss that because they don't feel welcome, yknow?
anyway, this is a very inconclusive post, but i thought i'd just throw some of my thoughts out as someone who has been here for a decently long time. and if you want to discuss w/ me, inbox and dms are always open :)
#honestly there was quite a lot more hostility back in the fandom's heyday#but you felt it less within dreblr bc we were too busy being bombarded lol#that being said c!dream apologists have Never all agreed with each other#trauma interpretation versus strategist interpretation is a microcosm of the differences just within dreblr#never mind c!dream apologist twt etc (as someone who started on twt mostly)#i'mdefinitely someone that has more than my fair share of disagreements with many of the more common opinions about c!dream#that i've seen on dreblr more recently -- that being said i think said disagreements aren't like. bad#it's just a matter of how exactly can we encourage discussion and differing opinions and talking about said differing opinions#in a way that both allows them to exist and allows people to comment on them and doesn't make anyone feel ostracized#which to be fair is a problem in most fandoms when it comes to meta#but perhaps felt more strongly in dreblr which still remains kind of disconnected from the rest of the dsmp fandom
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What I cannot stand about the mcyt fandom, the dsmp corner specifically is the constant self-censorship. Character names are written weird, so are the ships names, which are lowkey mid on average, and on ao3, fuckers don't tag characters, don't tag fandom, don't tag ships, or it's that stupid censoring of the ship names and characters. Instead of proper tagging, they put little condescending "no <3"s and "You searched for this" where those tags should be. Yeah no shit, I was searching for it, I had to dig through utter BULLSHIT to get here bitch. "Searched for it", scoff, that's what the TAGS are usually for, to filter for stuff that you're SEARCHING for
I can barely find shit on ao3, fuck all on tumblr, which, what even?? With as big as the dsmp fandom is/was, I expected so much more???
Of course there's a pattern to it, of fucking course I'm aware of it. It's the "pRoBlEmAtIc" ships that get this treatment and the "bOuNdArY bReAkInG" RPF fics that you can't even DIFFERENTIATE from DSMP ones because neither TAG THE FUCKING FANDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And DSMP has modern setting aus! untagged fandom, and it feels like fucking Russian roulette whether or not I get what I'm searching for!!!!
DSMP AND MCYT RPF FANDOMS, I BEG OF YOU! I IMPLORE YOU!
#SO FRUSTRATING#dsmp#meta#mcyt rpf#fandom discourse#dsmp discourse#ao3#hot take#GET YOUR SHIT TOGETHER#AND TAG YOUR SHIT#tag your shit#feels like fucking dumpster diving everytime i fucking swear
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Looking in the comments of Tommy’s new vid it sucks to see all the people saying the fanbase ruined the dsmp
I know part of my view on this is because I aggressively curate my online experience therefore didn’t directly see a lot of it- but like
a) there was- and IS- so much good in the fandom that honestly made the dsmp great. It never would have been half of what it was without the fans
b) in large part that’s kinda just how a fanbase is when it’s average age is 12-16
c) they handled some really REALLY heavy topics and not always with the grace and care needed and a lot of the story (especially with bad media literacy) was victim blamey. Which just meant that there are some real critiques to make about it. Some ppl loved -and still love it- cause it portrayed abuse so rawly and some of those ppl critiqued (rightly) bad story choices. - and some ppl just liked the fun story and hated the idea that it really was that deep for some ppl
d) kinda ignores how dream certain people curated incredibly toxic fanbases that they both encouraged and did nothing to curb. Like the fanbase was fucking horrible at times and I really think some people are a bit more responsible then they’re really given credit for *cough* dream *cough*
And again. The dsmp would never have been anything without the fans. Half the best moments of the smp were more from animatics then they were from the streams
#dsmp#my post#like dream isn’t entirely responsible for what the fandom was#but he was so big that he set the tone for a lot of the fandom#and him getting into flame wars on twitter then never really telling off fans for dogpiling/doxxing whoever he decided to go after that wee#really made a toxic atmosphere#dsmp meta
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Ghostbur!! Hehehe
FOXIE THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SENDING AN ASK WITH HIM ALSHSKSVSKSVJA HE IS MY GUYYYYYYY
![Tumblr media](https://64.media.tumblr.com/8ffa212d79c80eb9756e6298d390665a/4aca3f32d55b63d8-ac/s540x810/248d60994ee6c74c6ad50684b498995ac1e5b609.jpg)
I am so. Normal. About him <3 (I’m not normal about him at all he is my favorite if Ghostbur has one million fans I am one of them if he has 10 fans I am one of them if he has 1 fan I am that fan if he has no fans I am literally dead he is my most favorite I love him so much oh my gosh him he I love gah yes akdvsksvskzhksvsjavs)
HEADCANONS!!! YES!!! SO MANY!!! Some examples are: he has sensory issues (dirt under his fingernails really bothers him, and he absolutely adores his yellow sweater because Texture) and he understands Friend/animal speak quite well, and he does Not wear a shirt under his sweater alsvskdvksvsj
I project onto him… a little bit? I try to keep myself kinda distanced from the characters I write about, because I want them to feel authentic and distinct and not OOC, but I relate to Ghostbur a lot and definitely include things that I’ve experienced in his fanfics—though it has more to do with specific feelings as opposed to situations.
*gently holds* *admires* *eyes get big* *walks around while staring at him* *wordlessly shows him to friends* *gently holds* *admires* *tears up* *I love him*
The takes this fandom has on Ghostbur make me so upset 😭 It’s like… I want to make a longer post about this actually, but I’ve found that a lot of people either…
A) Infantilize him; treat him like he’s a toddler/very young child; think that he doesn’t understand a thing about the world; make him not care about other people because he’s too naive and childish; make him talk like a child. Basically, they get rid of all his complexities and thoughtfulness and uniqueness and reduce him to a dumb, shallow shell of a person. It’s frustrating and it’s hurtful and it’s awful.
B) Remove all aspects of his happy personality; make him quiet and depressed; make him dull, deeply emotional, and nothing else; see him as almost this… god, or other-worldly being who never smiles or has a carefree thought; is Depressed. This view doesn’t infantilize him, sure, but it also gets rid of the things that make Ghostbur… Ghostbur. This view removes every happifying, fun, innocent and wonderfully unique part of him, reducing him to Depressed Guy.
In actuality, Ghostbur is both innocent and plagued with thoughts/feelings too heavy to bear. He’s carefree in some areas and deeply thoughtful in others. He has a youthful mindset and is able to think through things in a mature way. He’s deeply emotional and experiences a wide range of emotions, not just sadness or happiness. He does his own thing, perfectly content to spend time with Friend on a walk, and is deeply attentive to the emotional state of others, doing his best to help them.
Ghostbur is just as complex as any other character—actually, he’s much more complex than a lot of other characters! It makes me so sad and frustrated when people reduce him to either of those two views I listed, because those aren’t Ghostbur. That’s not how he’s portrayed in canon, and that’s not who he is.
Oh that got long didn’t it-
Anyway!
Ghostbur was done dirty by cc!Wilbur canon my goodness 😭 In addition to living a short, angst-and-pain filled life, he ENDED UP IN LIMBO WITH NO ONE AND HE STAYED THERE FOR YEARS ALL WHILE BELIEVING HE DESERVED IT!!! LIKE. I MEAN I’M A WRITER, I LIKE SOME GOOD ANGST, BUT THAT’S JUST TOO MUCH. I MEAN SERIOUSLY.
And it’s made even worse by the fact that he’s still in limbo, even if he has Friend with him. I never thought I’d wish for another Reddit fanfiction, but I mean… it can only go uphill from here, right?? I just WANT WILBUR TO GIVE HIM A HAPPY ENDING THAT IS ALL I ASK 😭😭
Ghostbur is very silly, and that’s a big reason why I like him so much!! He’s just fun :D
Okay I’d replace kiss with hug akdgsjsvsksg but that’s still a big deal because I’m not a very touchy person—physical touch is my least favorite love language and in most cases it just makes me feel uncomfortable—but I would gladly run up to Ghostbur and hug him. He needs a hug :’(
I mean… pretty much All The Things have already happened to the poor soul, but if, for whatever reason, he truly dies—as in, ceases to exist at all, even in limbo—I will probably actually just Cry. I would just cry.
DUDE THIS GOT SO LONG THIS IS A FREAKING FICTIONAL CHARACTER BINGO WHY IS THIS SO LONG
#it twas fun to write though :D#man I don’t usually share my DSMP thoughts on here… *laughs nervously*#as in DSMP meta/character analysis/stuff like that#I’m worried people will get angry at me 😅#but MAN it feels kinda good to finally talk about this!!! because HECK yeah man. the fandom does him dirty#and it makes me upset >:(#ask#my DSMP thoughts#ask game answers#ghostposting
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what it is is like, on a meta level there were characters in the dream smp who were played by ccs who didn't have a large enough fanbase or "lore importance" to impact the writers room. like there were characters with specific written roles and there were characters whose arcs and internal conflict weren’t even being considered right. people's inability to separate cc from c also contributed, with cgnfs lore importance correlating w the ccs large audience (and ties to the main antagonist), he never would've been relevant otherwise. cniki was lightning in a bottle bcs she had just enough involvement with the guy's involved in the "main plot" to get eyes on her and what she did with that stage and focus was so captivating her character was able to stand alone with a fanbase of her own
however because of the nature of the dsmp, being able to see every characters individual perspective, the idea of 'side characters' only exists on a kinda narrative level, like for all intents and purposes ctommy was the main character (ignoring that old ass debate), the story was being sort of written with him at the center so thats how he was treated narratively but also on a meta level, many characters arcs were weighted based on how ctommy interacted with them. there were no side characters in the dsmp bcs of the nature of streaming as a medium but in the like, overarching story, ctommy is the mc
ALL OF THIS TO SAY ctubbo exists paradoxically. like technically he's one of the 'main guys' the fandom would focus on and was close enough to garner his own dedicated fanbase but [the thoughtstream that would spur this post] in modern discussions about dsmp nostalgia and character quotes and stuff I've never once seen ctubbos name.
So but but butttttttt on a meta level, narrative level, and TEXTUALLY LIKE IN THE ACTUAL TEXT he is regarded as a side character. like cctubbo gained a large enough fanbase to stand on his own but despite his proximity to the writers room he wasn't very involved in the writing of the "script" however the importance of his character to ctommy made it so that his character was always considered in the script (well characterized or not). with ctommy as the mc and ctubbo as his best friend, in the story of the overall dsmp ctubbo is the sidekick to main main character. now that's all well and good if it was only on a meta/textual level but this dynamic is actually crucial to his arc like actually IN THE TEXT
like in season 2 cdream is the main antagonist with making ctommys life a living hell being his main goal. he meticulously separates them and incites a canyon sized rift in their relationship. then while tubbo is holding up the sky and being [new] lmanburgs youngest acting president. cdream fully befriend him at his lowest with the intention of using him against ctommy. ctubbo was never a person in cdream's eyes. he, like many other characters, goes out of his way to dehumanize ctubbo, viewing him as an extension of ctommy the same way the discs are, something to taunt him with or destroy for a reaction. we see this in the white house fight and disc saga finale. despite going out of his way to gain ctubbos trust and play chess with him everyday, cdream never even saw him as a person (how fucked is that)
Anyway where was I goibg with this..ctubbo had enough ties to the 'main characters' to be tied to the 'main narrative' of the dsmp (in quotes bcs there's nuances to those phrases) but not enough to be allowed to stand alone on a meta level, narrative level, and in the text when regarded by other characters. it isn't until later in the story [thru streamer and tubbling efforts that he kinda gets his own legs? until the story requires otherwise from him and he's dragged along to whatever role the main story needs him to play (which in retrospect led to a lott of mischaraterization huh who knew
#i lost this post somewhere around the halfway point#like i was muttering to myself while pacing my housd and then thought hey maybe i should post that and lost what i was saying halfway thru#anyway add to the discussion as u please#also huge shoutout to sam and ponk fans yall carried despite how underrated ur faves were#smp analysis#c!tubbo#dsmp#and fuck the shitty ccs or whatever#mcyt#dream smp#IGNORE ME IGNORE THIS IM CTAZY
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Outside of the in-character weight of that conversation, it makes me sad that it definitely feels like this is a meta commentary from the CCs too. Tommy noting that 'that time' from the dsmp was a mess, and made him a mess, but that it was also kind of fun and he still misses it sometimes, and Jack agreeing with it, seems as much reflective of how the cc and even the fandom community as a whole looks at dsmp now.
Jack's assurance that it's okay and normal to miss it, despite how conflicted and messy it was is weirdly affirming.
Tommy's comment specifically 'missing the people, or how they were' also drives this home, with how many friends he looked up to he's had to face are not great people lately. Isn't it normal to ache for the time when you could obliviously hang out and have fun? Is it bad to miss that?
(It's not. It's okay to miss things that you used to love even when parts of it or people involved with it turned out to not be very good)
And the whole conversation happening in front of Techno's cabin, a person Tommy lost that is so intrinsically linked to dsmp for him too...
Idk man, just feels like this is more than dsmp lore
#text posts#might delete later#sometimes i miss sbi and I mean ccSBI#despite how much I loathe ccWilbur#i miss the excitement of the dsmp a lot
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Gonna be honest with you though if someone outright says “don’t ship my character with other people” or something to that extent regarding smut or whatever I don’t think there should be any ambiguity
I get your point about the nature of fanfic being inherently encroaching upon people’s images so that levity should be extended to otherwise uncommon avenues but I really believe hardline boundaries should be respected, end of, no discussion. If I see people violating creators’ boundaries for their characters Or themselves (and these can be intertwined, it’s not up to the audience to pick apart their boundaries, cuz I’ve seen people try to do that) I’m not going to judge them fairly and I feel like neither should you.
Lines can be crossed and intimacy (not even necessarily romantic!) is a very different monster than the other avenues of storytelling because of how it involves real life relationships seeping into character relationships. Its’s uncommon for people to be like “I wrote A’s character being tortured because I feel like A is tortured in real life” but they Can and Often do that with ship work. So I don’t know, I feel like you’re not affording this the right nuance.
Alright, so, this is another post I'm gonna slap with a discourse and long post warning right away, buckle in.
Yeah, I hear what you're saying, and this is not an uncommon opinion to have! It's still the opinion of twitter/x so far as I know, and I think it's probably the opinion of the bulk of dsmp fans here, as well. I know my posts get notes once they start circulating in hermitblr, but I don't kid myself that I have the majority view. I am posting to explain my views expressly because I know a lot of people don't agree with me!
And in this case we do have a difference of opinion. There's two sort of points as I see it in your posts— we have hardline boundaries about shipping/nsfw from some people, and everyone in the fandom should be abiding by those no exceptions or be thrown out of the fandom; and we have shipping boundaries but not boundaries for other things because shipping is uniquely boundary-crossing and terrible and invasive, in contrast to anything else we can do in fandom.
Taking the second part first, I just don't think that's true. Let's not forget, boundaries discourse started with SMPLive and SMPronpa, and it was not the shipping that caused the discussion, it was the death games. The first real fandom reckoning we had with the notion of boundaries as mcyt fandom was over gore and murder and portraying people in violent ways. Shipping was barely a blip on the radar. The way the discourse has developed now, shipping is framed as the absolute worst thing anyone could ever do with your public image, and everything else is fine, but that is not the case for everyone. Recently the Pirates SMP creators were asked repeatedly for their boundaries (bothered on twitter, really) until they gave them and thus we saw people being fine with shipping but not wanting family dynamic, or being against both shipping and gore, or being fine with shipping but not wanting to be gender bent or trans headcanoned, etc. Not everyone feels the same way about the same things, despite the us-american cultural viewpoint that romance and sexualization is uniquely bad but gore and torture is fine, that everything else is fine.
Like, if we're looking at DSMP, I think there are a lot of creators who would feel just as strongly if not stronger about fics in which their character died of a terminal illness than they would about a fic in which they kiss someone, for understandable reasons. But I see those tropes in the tags regularly!
I think if we are honest with ourselves, if we are going to hardline boundaries about things that are uniquely invasive or bad to do to a creator's character with the view that we are putting all of this up for the creator's approval, we need to accept that this excludes us from writing anything where a character is abusive or is tortured or dies of a terminal illness or is psychologically broken or is age regressed or is neurodivergent or is queer if the cc is straight or trans if the cc is cis or cis if the cc is trans or straight if they're gay— the list of things that would be weird to do in the face of the real guy is really long. And it has most of our favourite tropes on it!
I love writing autistic philza. It would be really fuckin' weird to go up to Philza and tell him about how I write his character as whumped and autistic. Come on now. (But that's within boundaries, so that's— fine? I really don't think it's fine!)
Which is why my stance is that we should be thinking critically about these things, and keeping the fandom seperate from the creators. Some of these things are just not for the creators. They're fine but they shouldn't go on twitter. Y'know?
The idea that shipping draws uniquely on the real person and leads to invasive behaviour but nothing else does— that nobody does "I wrote A being tortured because I think A is tortured in real life"— Look. I have been in the fandom a long time. I remember how all the abused tommy narratives fed right into people assuming his family in real life were abusive— and talking about this on twitter! Where he and his family could see! People did this with WIlbur and Techno too!
I remember people reading about trans tommy and then truthing that the creator either was transmasc or was going to come out as transfemme any day now, publically, on twitter and in his chat. I have seen people she/her tubbo to his face on twitter, with fancams. I have been in chat when people who have clearly assigned Phil "dad" start asking WILDLY invasive things in TTS. If you think that shipping is the only fandom behaviour that can lead to people drawing directly from the streamers for their work and treating the creators weirdly about it, you simply have not been paying attention.
The way the fandom insists on treating benchtrio as children despite the fact that they're almost twenty and viciously attacking their friends for treating them as adults and chiding tommy and tubbo and ranboo for inappropriate behaviour. The list goes ON.
So. The recieved DSMP wisdom is that we should TTS the streamers to check if it's okay if we write a fic in which they die of cancer. We should DM them on instagram to ask if it's okay if we write them as a gender or sexual identity they don't share. We should show up in their twitter mentions to ask if it's okay if we write them as a physically abusive parent.
No????????
My view on that is that it is frankly bizzare it is that we have decided that "asking creators for detailed instructions regarding porn or gore" (especially in TTS! When they're fucking at WORK and can't step away! Stop doing this to the hermits!) is normal and fine and responsible but "post your shit in appropriate places and leave the creators out of it" will make you a monster.
Once again, the experience of someone coming up and saying "i think of you as age regressed" and someone saying "i found this fic where you're age regressed" and someone saying "can I write a fic where you're age regressed" is not that different. In all cases you know that the person has been thinking about it and putting it out there, and in all cases you didnt seek out this information, it was brought to you. In all cases it's weird. Just do not bring this information up to them!
If you just think about it for a while, you see that there is an entire host of things that would be weird to force into the view of a creator, especially when you consider that half the time we got these clips from TTS information when we have no idea if the person answering knew the context of what they were being asked, if they were specifically aware of the creator/cc divide that the fandom works with, or if they felt pressured into it. Oh yeah, let's take a TTS clip from Tubbo when it was 2 in the morning for him and he was deep in a minecraft mod when someone asked him about alters and delusions and he was like "oh you mean like— when they can't help it? I guess that's fine." That definately counts as freely given, reversible, informed, enthusiastic and specific consent to show him anything we want at all times forever. That's never going to make him uncomfortable.
Think a little here.
So I think there's a lot of the fandom that we should not be putting up for the approval of the creators, and if we don't have a firm answer on if they would like potential edge cases, we should probably be thinking about it and keeping it away from them (and I would err on the side of caution), we should NOT be showing up in the TTS to ask them about narratives in which they're institutionalized, or making them a GOP conservative in fiction, or if Wilbur was canon about seeing them as a bottom, or whatever bizzare thing someone is cooking up now. Honestly if you think to yourself "I don't know if the creator would like seeing this", I would be much more comfortable if the two choices we were picking between there were "simply don't write it" or "write it but keep it away from them", and "harass the creator for an answer on this subject and only write it if they say yes" never entered the equation at all.
And to return to your first point, if we already have a class of fiction that we are keeping away from the creators because basic intellectual curiosity would show that it would be weird to show someone, I don't think it's the end of the world to go "okay, creator doesn't like NSFW, so we also keep the NSFW away from them, keep this shit off twitter, block them if you create it, don't show it to them" and then we archive lock it and continue on our little weirdo on the internet ways.
Now, I don't expect to convince you of this, the phrasing of your post does not indicate that you're open to discussion on this topic. That's fine. Nobody has to agree with me. But I grew up conservative christian, and I have already had people try and get me to throw people out of the community for their perceived sins where I was like "well, I really don't think this is that bad", and I'm really resistant to being forced to do that again. I don't think it's a healthy way to run a fandom, to be shunning people for what they're doing in fiction. Harassing creators in chat? Sure, I will block them from my events as untrustworthy. That's hurting someone in the real world. Writing something that I don't vibe with privately on the archive for an audience of 50 people? That is not doing harm to real people. As long as they're not showing it to the creators, I don't count that as offensive.
How's that for nuance.
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One of the most bizarre takes I’ve seen WRT punishment in this fandom is that arguing that no one deserves to be tortured (or that no one deserves to be imprisoned at all, torture notwithstandng!) is a “centrist” position.
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[according to my cameraroll metadata, screenshots are from 08/03/22 if anyone cares]
This attitude is baffling for all the obvious reasons but the part of it that most interests me is that it frames violent punishment/retributive action as a thing that, under some circumstances, is necessary. Which…just isn’t the case? Retribution is, definitionally, enacting some kind of penalty (usually unpleasant) on a guilty party to retroactively punish them for having done something bad in the past. If we really want to split hairs about it, punishment is distinct from disciplinary action because disciplinary action (when working as intended) should prevent the guilty party from doing further harm, whereas punishment is supposed to castigate the guilty party for having done some harm already - rather than a sanction to prevent current and ongoing harm. The “ret” in retribution comes from retro, meaning “backward.” Basically, it’s a past vs. present thing, deeply rooted in ideas about what is/isn’t “deserved” and completely uncoupled from the impact the punishment does/doesn’t have on the victim of the crime. Retributive justice hurts the perpetrator but doesn’t meaningfully do anything for the victim, whereas restorative justice prioritizes closure for both parties without violence.
My actual point being that retributive justice is never necessary. It’s retributive. It doesn’t help the victim, it only harms the perpetrator. No matter what angle you’re coming from, you simply can’t frame retribution as necessary under any circumstances, therefore you can’t frame arguing against retributive justice as “centrism.” It just doesn’t hold up.
Also. Another thing.
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This is an attitude I see A LOT, not just in this fandom but in broader conversations about redemption in fiction: the idea that violent suffering is a necessary component of redemption. This attitude is so widespread that I’ve actually seen degrees of suffering used as a criterion for determining whether a redemption arc was effective or not (i.e. “X character’s redemption arc was well-written because X suffered from the consequences of their own actions.”)
And idk, I would really like to see more pushback against that idea? Why do we define “a good redemption arc” as a storyline where the perpetrator suffers, rather than a storyline where the victim receives some kind of aid that goes towards rectifying whatever harms were wrought against them? The latter seems like a much more relevant way to define redemptive action, but this never seems to come up in these discussions. (If I was to hedge a guess as to why, I'd say it's because audiences find the binarism of good/evil comforting and that portraying a character the fandom sees as a "villain" trying to make up for their past mistakes genuinely makes a lot of viewers uncomfortable. But that's a whole new can of worms!)
A final thought: I love seeing a character experiencing the consequences of their own actions as much as the next guy, but WRT this particular topic, I think that whole concept is sort of misapplied. If a character must experience the (assumed violent) consequences of their own actions in order to be “redeemed,” can you really call it redemption? Violent suffering robs people of choice, it takes away their options. Yes, it can push them toward the path of redemption - but if they’re pushed, can you really say with confidence that they chose to change their ways? Personally, I would sooner qualify someone getting everything they’ve ever wanted and still voluntarily choosing to change their ways as a “good redemption arc” than someone being forced to rectify their wrongs through violent corrective action imposed upon them.
I find myself reflecting upon the attitude that the only “acceptable” redemption for c!Dream requires violent coercive action. It’s a startlingly common take even among those who agree in general terms that retributive justice is broadly a bad idea and that Pandora’s Vault/torture in particular is either immoral, ineffective, or both.
If a “redemption arc” always requires violence or the threat of it, what exactly is being communicated?
#in general the way fandom thinks about this stuff is super culturally christian but i cant talk about that or i'll get shot lmfao#as usual handles are censored so no one gets their shit wrecked#i'm not censoring pfps because i assume all these ppl have changed their profiles by now#if you still have an anime waifu c!wilbur pfp in 2023 i think that's on you (that was rude im sorry)#anyway. sigh#i need to start sending kat little heads-up dms like “hey im about to be SO annoying on your post”#sorry this got so long lmao#c!dream#dsmp meta
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anyway cfundy meta bc idc ive been doing this for 4 years now. i love you cfundy and the in-canon and meta aspect of your entire storyline being abt being forgotten or completely glossed over. your arc never finished past owning up to the one person that both overshadowed you and cursed you with the inability to separate from other people's machinations , and i think while incomplete is still fascinating . and now we see the dsmp fandom reviving itself and yet cfundy remains out of the picture . what a frustrating but also fascinating predicament to have your character forgotten inside and outside the storyline
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read your post about how the atmosphere in dreblr feels a little tense nowadays. honestly when i first joined this fandom i was excited to share takes/meta but i dont do it much anymore cause of how intense ppl get when they disagree… wasnt prepared for that level of intensity
i have to say that my experience with this fandom and your experience with this fandom are ... probably pretty different 😅 (not that i know for sure, of course, so sorry abt any inherent assumptions to when you joined the fandom, i've just been here for damn near forever) and that that'll color my perspective on this, so. fair warning in advance.
to be honest, disagreement in dreblr is not a new thing. when dreblr was created there were two main "camps" of c!dream apologism that disagreed on pretty much everything to do with c!dream after novermber 16th and would write essays debunking each other's takes pretty goddamn often. here's an old post by red responding to a lot of opinions on both sides of the line which i think illustrates this well -- note the difference established between "c!dream apologists" and "c!dream enthusiasts," perhaps better known now as the "trauma interpretation" and "strategist interpretation" of c!dream back before the confirmation of staged finale during the prison break, which shows how different people's opinions of c!dream ranged at dreblr's very conception. and this disagreement ran pretty damn deep, too, lmao--some of it was reserved to debating each other in semiprivate discord servers, but plenty of it was made of vagueing each other's takes or directly debating them on each other's blogs.
i think that a source of friction, to be honest, is that dreblr started as a much more analysis- and meta-focused community than it is now. the entire dsmp fandom was very analysis-heavy in 2021-2022, and dreblr definitely reflected that culture; since the dsmp ended, the amount of active discussion about it in a meta sense has also waned, and as such dreblr and many other areas of dsmp fandom have been more focused on other kinds of fanwork. this isn't a bad thing, of course! but it has led to a shift in etiquette, and while i think meta etiquette and fanwork etiquette are very. very different things, obviously the amount of fanwork and the amount of meta that's around in dreblr spaces influences how people interact with all parts of dreblr etc etc that's just how people and communities work
but back to my point. disagreement has always been a part of this fandom, especially in meta spaces (which used to be pretty much all of dreblr, but has kind of become more of a small part of it in more recent times) and intensity with those disagreements also is kind of ... on par for the course? i mean, personally, i think disagreements ran more intense in dreblr in 2021 on average--it's not like dreblr has been as sharply divided with different "versions" of c!dream apologism since--and when it comes to the general fandom, well, any look at the inbox of anyone posting c!dream positive analysis and the formation of dreblr as a whole speak for themselves. also IFUADA and the whole attempt to like, lmanburg us out of our own house. which was hilarious btw that shit was awesome
like, at the end of the day, meta is made to be a place where people are gonna disagree. and a lot of people in meta spaces find it fun to disagree, even; there are more than a few people who will devil's advocate an argument they don't even agree with just for the sake of disagreement and debate. fandom analysis is just ... like, fandom academia lite, and it's also far less beholden to the rules of professionalism in real academia (not that real academia is free of conflict, obviously. including extremely petty conflict, as anyone who has read enough passive-aggressive as shit academic papers will tell you). this isn't to say that things don't go too far, because again, the history of this fandom proves it LOL. but while we all want people to feel comfortable in meta spaces, we also want meta spaces to be a place for people to be passionate about their opinions and to disagree about them fervently and to debate to their heart's content, bc that's kind of the point of fandom meta, yk?
in my post, i mentioned that i think more open disagreement will be good for dreblr, and i do stand by this point; i think that there's no real point in trying to stamp out disagreement in a space meant to be a free place for people to disagree and express their disagreements, not that that's what you're saying or anything just as a general thought. i also think that more disagreement will help with there feeling like there's less of a "correct" way to think about c!dream and the server, which i think raises the barrier of entry for people who want to post meta but don't want to be eviscerated bc they said something "wrong." of course, i can't force anyone to post meta nor do i want to--hell, i want to post more meta but am limited in time, and i know we all live busy lives 😭 (which is part of why this ask is being answered so late, sorry!) -- my point is i dont think, idk, one person being passionate abt a take or disagreement or whatever is necessarily the problem as far as upping the tension in dreblr as much as like. there's a lot of general discomfort and a lack of willingness to rock the boat in a place which should be a safe waters for everyone to take shots at any ship (er, ship to follow up with the rock-the-boat metaphor, but the secondary meaning does apply here as well) they want. we're shooting with water guns, not real bullets, and there's no fun in a splash fight if everyone's too scared of getting someone else wet, i guess.
that being said, anon, i understand that not everyone wants to participate in the free-for-all take pvp that is inherent to meta spaces...to which i say that, honestly, there's no requirement to participate in analysis spaces specifically to just, share your thoughts on the server. i think that in general, if anyone posts their thoughts on the dsmp and adds a disclaimer to the top like "not really analysis, just miscellaneous thoughts that i would prefer not to be vagued/argued against," i really just don't think that most people are gonna go out of their way to argue with that? you have every right to just yap while opting out of the possibility of being vagued or debated with, but you might have to make it clear beforehand bc vagueposting and debating is just the culture that exists in meta/analysis spaces, especially dsmp meta/analysis spaces that have been a part of dreblr since dreblr was made. and if there's anything else that can be done to make everyone feel more comfortable, i think that's worth discussing!
#my asks !!#disk horse#hope this helps? at all? pfpfpfttt#i dont want to gut dreblr of what was a crucial part of it from the day it was made honestly#and i want analysis to be able to thrive in dreblr now even with all the changes that have occurred internally and whatever#that being said i very much understand that not everyone's comfort level with this stuff is the same#i think everyone has the right to figure out what they're most comfortable with and stick to it!#fandom is for fun and if youre not having fun then find a way that works for you etc#but analysis spaces have been a part of fandom for a long time and have their own cultures and etiquette#and debate/analysis /is/ fun for a lot of people here
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i love you dsmp fandom. i love you writers i love you artists i love you web-weavers i love you meta posters i love you rpers i love you animators i love you singers i love you songwriters i love you i love you i love you
#dsmp#1wn8ure.talks#there is a space for EVERYONE creatively#any talent or skill#any passion#you are loved and you are accepted and you are so so cool!
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You can just ask in their dms! I’m sure most of us would be very eager to talk to mutuals!
guys guys how do i talk to my mutuals w/o asking them if i can talk to them
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meta talk. i don't quite know how to word this properly, but adding french creators to the qsmp is the riskiest thing quackity studios could've done and it doesn't surprise me that the success to which it was executed was minimal.
adding portuguese speaking creators exclusively from brazil as the first batch outside of the initial english and spanish speakers was the perfect "soft expansion" for the server when you consider the reason for the project's conception - because quackity had experienced poor treatment from white americans as a bilingual latino creator and sought to unite his two communities in an empowering way, further expanding this very noble and personal idea to encapsulate all communities and all languages spanning across the entire world. inviting more latino creators who have likely had the same experiences and would be able to appreciate what the project is trying to achieve is a no-brainer.
it's an uncomfortable thing to touch on (which is why i've never, ever, seen it spoken about on this website), but minecraft projects and communities have always had massive problems with all forms of bigotry, but especially racism. white americans and white europeans have probably not felt the euphoria of seeing their culture celebrated in mainstream global entertainment projects as they already absolutely dominate the entertainment industry on a global scale. as someone who is visibly brown and living in europe, i've always got a lot of grief from classmates and co-workers in the form of ignorant jokes and flat out exclusion - it's an unfortunate cultural norm that bleeds into streaming due to the medium's casual and open nature, unnoticed or unchallenged by white viewers who don't want to have to confront a content creator's bigotry in fears of having to stop watching them. something that cannot be ignored by the people it's actually affecting. there is a reason dsmp and hermitcraft cosplay meet ups are dominated by pale skin.
i love the qsmp because its inclusion of latin american creators and quackity's selectiveness based on personal experience have largely (and i do mean largely, not entirely, but that's a discussion for another day) eliminated that problem.
the most prominent and succinct example i can think of is the photo of quackity's bedroom that was mocked countless times by his english speaking community and his bigoted english speaking friends when he streamed on the dsmp - when that photo was brought to the qsmp, forever, a fellow latino creator, was the first person to gently offer solidarity because he had come from the same impoverished latin american background. to me, and to a lot of minorities, that is what the qsmp is about. yeah, sharing languages in a minecraft server is novel, it's a fun way for americans who did poorly in high school to get back into learning spanish, but it stands for so much more when you're a racial minority. when your pleading in the dsmp fandom was drowned out and ignored for the entire duration of its run. when you're completely unrepresented in minecraft tournaments, and when known bigots are encouraged to participate in said tournaments to boost viewership because numbers are paramount. when you are finally seeing your culture appreciated rather than mocked on streams with tens of thousands of viewers all over the world as part of a massive project with a brilliant, engaging story.
it was obviously necessary to branch out of the americas at some point with what the project is attempting to achieve, but such a task is daunting when the next group you're inviting and their community probably do not have the capacity through personal experience to appreciate what the project stands for at its core in the same way the first batches do. can non americans all relate in discussions of the internet and entertainment industry being america and by extension english speaking centric? yeah, of course. but can white europeans relate when the only representation you have in said media revolves around harmful bigoted stereotypes? can there be a quiet solidarity between a white frenchman and a brown brazilian based on experiences with government, racial profiling, and online mockery? no. and in the landscape of livestreaming stupid jokes for entertainment alongside fast paced gameplay, these nuances are probably not going to be acknowledged.
in complete contrast to the solidarity exhibited between quackity and forever when discussing their poverty growing up in latin america, i have not forgotten and never will forget aypierre excusing his constant racist jokes aimed at the brazilians on his uniquely "french dark humour" that the brazilians, hurt by his comments, could "not understand." this is not an excusable cultural difference, but a symptom of white european privilege, and total ignorance towards what the project is meant to stand for. a smooth integration of all the world's cultures necessitates white european and white american introspection in a way that i haven't seen a lot of streamers capable of. admitting fault to such a degree and the ego of a large online personality do not often mesh well.
i'm always very irritated when people (especially english speakers) complain about them not "adding the germans" sooner despite us seeing applications for german speaking admins many months ago - because it would not be a task of simply throwing out server invites to content creators and cobbling together an animation of a submarine crashing into the island. you cannot downplay the ambition of this project and the mammoth task its trying to accomplish. people take for granted and forget that this is an unprecedented melding of cultures that would never otherwise interact and clash on the rare occasions they do. the french qsmp community being small and the french creators largely being outliers when it comes to the qsmp is not something born out of malice or purposeful exclusion, but simply a symptom of an unspoken lack of solidarity and inability to meaningfully relate based on everything from wildly varying privilege to global placement.
and don't get me wrong - i'm not excusing things like the times at which events are broadcast (i literally live in europe and have to stay up until sunrise to see most events, i think the admins do have to bite the bullet and begin structuring events around a new timezone that isn't the globally inconvenient unsustainable PST), or the exclusion of clips from french content creators at the presidential dinner, but i think attributing those admin choices to the brazilian community being unfairly favoured is downplaying what the qsmp as a project means for minorities, especially when the brazilian community receive the most scorn for infamously being the first to call out bigoted behaviour from qsmp content creators. yeah, it sucks that the french haven't slotted into the qsmp as well as the brazilians and aren't anywhere as numerous, but with all these unspoken contributing factors being taken into account, i can't be surprised.
i wish quackity and his team the best in smoothly integrating more languages and cultures in this amazing project in the future, but for the love of god please understand that the implications of this project and its impact are far larger than any streamer "drama" you might've witnessed in the past. and stop underplaying what this project is trying to achieve in an online landscape saturated in bigotry.
#sorry if this is worded weirdly im still recovering from a brain injury. ill fix typos as and when i notice them reading back on this#also dont tag this as discourse because its like.....not. and thats so unhelpful in recognising what im trying to get across#edit: ive seen a few people bringing it up now YES dont worry i am aware that etoiles isnt white thats why i made sure to specify white#when talking about where the issues were coming from#mine#qsmp
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