#deans moral compass

[scoobydoodean]

what is your opinion on people calling dean a heavy misogynist? i don’t agree personally but i feel like you could put my thoughts into better words

First, I have to chuckle a little at "heavy misogynist". Apparently, some people have begun to realize their fave is also guilty of misogyny crimes therefore they focus on making sure all of us know Sam is a light misogynist and Dean is a heavy misogynist. I just find that amusing.

This is a broad topic in a long show, so I won't endeavor to address every conceivable incidence of misogyny in the show I can think of. Instead, I'm going to create a few headings, at least one of which I think most criticism falls under.

Misogyny through the writing team

How Sam's misogyny gets a pass

Purity culture wank and Dean performing for Sam

How Dean actually treats women

Misogyny Through The Writing Team

First, Supernatural in of itself has issues with misogyny—as in, the writers of the show (including female writers) have issues with misogyny which they are happy to put on display semi-frequently. The show started in 2005, during a period of time where casual sexism was absolutely rampant on TV and no one thought anything about it. Female celebrities were regularly mocked and dragged on cable television in a way men simply weren't. They were called bitches and skanks and whores, and even "progressive" voices were inundated with casual misogyny and a fixation on purity culture (that largely applied to women only). Quite simply, I think fandom tends to be far too generous toward the writers, assuming certain things were "flaws" the writers intentionally wrote for the characters.

Put another way, there are some criticisms I prefer to level at the writing team rather than the characters, because what is written plainly reflects their ignorance in the real world rather than any intent to give Sam or Dean or any other character meaningful flaws—much less outright terrible ones that greatly harm their image. I'll give a few examples:

2.17 "Heart" makes me very uncomfortable as I sit here in 2024 and observe how Sam and Madison's romance develops. Me feeling that way does not mean the authorial intent of 2007 Sera Gamble was that I think to myself, "Man Sam comes off as uncomfortably rapey here." Hopelessly bad with women, perhaps—but not creepy.

In season 2, the writers begin to develop a running “joke” that Sam is afraid of not just clowns but also little people. The latter “joke” is (wisely) dropped fairly quickly. I have never criticized Sam for being afraid of little people, and I never will. It is readily apparent to me that this running "joke" reflects the ignorance of the writing team rather than an intent to give Sam meaningful or interesting flaws. Their intent was to use little people as the butt of a joke. I personally find this "joke" distasteful, and the idea of trying to take that and somehow "dunk" on Sam for the bigotry of the writers is more distasteful to me.

This is also how I feel about the running "joke" of a porn magazine and website (BAB) that solely features Asian women, that is put on display on multiple occasions during the show—first in 2.15 "Tall Tales", where the context is Gabriel infecting Sam's laptop with a virus from the website and making him believe Dean is responsible. BAB continues to make "Easter Egg" appearances in the show afterward. While often associated with Dean by fandom, the writers clearly think of BAB as a general, "funny" (it isn't), running gag with no more depth than "haha men like porn funny". An issue is stolen by a sentient teddy bear in 4.08 "Wishful Thinking". An issue is owned by the teenager who swapped bodies with Sam in 5.12 "Swap Meat". The Men of Letters also collected a considerable number of issues (8.17). I simply do not believe the writers thought for a single moment about BAB being a grossly racist gag. They most certainly did not write it as an intentional criticism of Dean from that perspective. It reflects nothing but their ignorance and racism here in the real world, and absolutely SHOULD be criticized from that REAL WORLD impact.

How Sam's misogyny largely gets a pass

One of the things I have not been able to stop noticing on this rewatch is Sam's issues with misogyny, and how often Sam's misogyny comes out in conflicts with Dean... starting from the very first episode of the show. Pretty much any time you get anything that feels like it might be a misogynist Dean or horn dog Dean moment... Sam either just has or is about to follow that up with some misogyny of his own.

In 1.01, right after entering Sam's apartment and meeting Jess, Dean mentions the Smurfs on Jess's shirt. We think to ourselves "Okay. A little misogynist... a little horn-dog Dean." Sam is happy to 1-Up that in two ways. First, Jess voices her intentions to go get dressed. Dean dismisses this, but while doing so, makes it clear he intends to leave the room with Sam, as he'd like to have a private conversation with Sam anyway. Sam objects, walking over to Jess and putting an arm around her, demanding Dean say whatever he needs to say right then and there. Maybe this would feel supportive if Jess wasn't in her underwear and hadn't just made it clear that now that the panic over a possible break-in is over, she'd really like to not be in her underwear in front of a stranger. But nope. By god she needs to stand there so Sam can prove a point about misogynist Dean! Second, Sam immediately (and I think quite erroneously) jumps to imply Dean is trying to cut Jess out of the conversation because she's... a woman? Or... something? He makes a big show of moving over Jess and standing beside her, saying anything Dean has to say, he can say in front of Jess. However, the moment Sam actually understands that Dean is here because John is missing on a hunting trip, he dismisses Jess to speak to Dean alone... because he's lying to her. By painting Dean erroneously with this "The men are talking" bullshit that had nothing to do with anything, Sam sets himself up to be viewed as a misogynist by his own framing of the situation and what it means to leave Jess out of a discussion. He also reveals his own alleged principles as a performative illusion. Despite being his intended life partner, Sam never intends to tell the woman he loves about his past as a hunter (he makes this clear later on the bridge). However, I think because Sam's actions usually co-occur with what gets called out more directly or more immediately recognized as misogyny from Dean (should have gotten him for the Smurf's comment, Sam!) Sam's misogyny often flies under the radar... and he's really... pretty bad.

I spoke here at length about how Sam tends to look down on women who interact with Dean (often before meeting them). There is absolutely an intersection with purity culture here and there's discussion in that thread about that as well, and whether this is a "2000s writers" issue or intentionally written flaws.

In 1.06, Sam cuts Dean off before Dean can accept an offered beer from Rebecca, but then as soon as Sam needs Rebecca out of the room, Sam asks her to not just bring them those beers... but also fix them sandwiches. Rebecca says, "What do you think this is, Hooters?" and Dean mumbles, "I wish" and we somehow lose sight of the fact that Sam literally just asked a woman to make him sandwiches which is possibly the number one misogynist man trope. Sam vaguely suggests Dean is a misogynist in 1.19 for nudging Sam to go on a date with Sarah Blake and possibly get information on the case, because that would be "using" her, but Sam wants to "use" Meg Masters in 1.22 and he wants to "use" Ruby to get what he wants, and when he said getting information from women was "Dean's job", he was also showing he was perfectly willing to use Dean and Sarah—he just doesn't want to get his hands dirty. It also comes to light in 1.19 that this is more about Sam's belief that he has to protect women from him, and Sarah herself ends up calling Sam antiquated for it.

I mentioned before that Sam doesn't plan to ever tell Jess who he is, and he makes the same plans with Amelia. Dean, meanwhile, confides in Cassie (it's what leads to their breakup) as well as Lisa.

I also have to mention... one of the funniest things I see deancrit samgirls in particular dig at time after time after time is Dean calling women "bitches". Never mind that Sam also calls women like Ruby and Bela bitches and calls a woman a bitch in front of Madison. Apparently none of these occurrences count because... *looks at notes* reasons. "Bitch" only counts as misogyny when it's Dean saying it. Also, let's not mention that Sam exclusively uses the word "bitch" to refer to women, while Dean also calls men and creatures bitches at different points so it isn't a gender specific insult for him.

Dean is definitely the "heavy" misogynist here... right? (I guess Sam is a "tall" misogynist instead).

Purity culture wank and Dean performing for Sam

Dean is commonly treated in fandom as if he's some kind of sex pest, and quite blatantly... he isn't one. Women almost always proposition Dean first (thejabberwock has sets on this here and here), but him asking people out also isn't inherently creepy in any way? Co-occurring with Sam's purity culture inundated judgements, we often see fandom's own as well, where Dean is some kind of sex pest because he... likes women? Or... because he has sex with consenting women who also want to have sex with him? Sometimes it's giving purity culture wank, sometimes it's given big radfem energy... but regardless, I sometimes see people talk about Dean like him so much as making eye contact with a woman is a violent sexual threat, and that's just laughable—as is denying the agency and autonomy of consenting women in general.

Even though it doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things, I'll also add that Dean... doesn't even actually have sex with the frequency that people talk about it? Dean has sex with Cassie—who was a long term partner of his in 1.13. He has sex with an actress in 2.18, and with Doublemint twins in 3.01. He has sex with a waitress 4.05. He plans to have sex with someone in 3.04, but turns her down when he realizes she's a prostitute who's working. This happens again in 10.07. I'm on season 4 of my rewatch and haven't been formally keeping up... but Dean is not actually having a lot of sex? We get implications he's been out partying a few times, and can maybe infer he scored, but we don't actually know.

I'm not a huge fan of performing Dean, in the sense that I think over the years I have seen it wildly overstated far too many times. But I do think Dean sometimes plays a character for Sam especially. Dean tells us this himself in 2.03 "Bloodlust" when confiding in Gordon. He never says so directly when it comes to the sexy sex guy doing sex persona, but his actions reveal him. One can think of plenty of examples of Dean saying horny stuff about women to Sam... but what about his actions?

How Dean actually treats women

Finally, there's how Dean actually treats women... and one would be very hard pressed to prove to me that Dean is sexist toward the women in his life. He's been close friends with multiple women and worked with women on hunts on multiple occasions and never once batted an eye. Jo in 2.06 is sometimes floated as an example, but it's actually discussed within the episode. Dean makes it very clear that he thinks women can do the job just fine. What he has a problem with is Jo's lack of experience and her romanticization of the job (especially during a period where Dean has fallen deeply out of love with the job himself). Everything we see as the series progresses supports Dean's assertion as truth. He's very good friends with Charlie, Jody, and Donna and doesn't go around excluding them on hunts while favoring men. That is not a thing that happens. While he initially tries to talk Claire out of the life (as he does everybody—this is not unique to women—see Adam for example) when she decides to hunt, he supports her regardless. There is nothing uniquely overprotective about how Dean treats women who hunt. End of. Dean has no illusions about traditional gender roles or any of that nonsense, jumping to clean dishes after dinner at Jody's and cooking breakfast for Lisa and Ben. (Our knowledge of Dean and the chores he does for his family already tell us this—but regardless). Even Demon Dean, an entity with no love for anyone and close to zero principles, targeted men who abuse and threaten women, and when Crowley ordered him to kill Lester's wife to fulfill the terms of Lester's demon deal, Demon Dean instead became so deeply annoyed with Lester's hypocrisy (he cheated on his wife first) and his assertion that it's different when men cheat, that he killed him and smiled while doing it.

So anyway, nope—I don't think Dean is a "heavy" misogynist.

[scoobydoodean]

#ruminated on this for a bit and here's my 2 cents I think they're both wrong#obviously they're wrong about roy being a killer but dean here is like. like he's just describing what hunters do on a weekly basis#they literally decide who lives and who dies all the time by saving people hunting things.#but given the person dean is it wouldn't surprise me if dean. knew this? and was aware of this in them both#like that killing roy would make dean the person 'playing god'#which brings me to sam and- my guy. firstly it absolutely would not make you just as bad as him#second if it would- if killing a killer would make you 'just as bad' then hey. you've been doing that. you HAVE been killing monsters#dean killed the 1x02 monster and the shapeshifter and I heard nothing out of you about that making him just as bad#so why are you protesting about it now? and it's because roy is human. and that makes his murder more unjustifiable#than if it were a monster because he's not *really* a *monster*. he's just a human.

#which on the one hand sure! because the reason hunters kill monsters is because you can't put a ghost or shapeshifter in jail.#it simply will not work so if you want to prevent them killing people you need to make sure they can't (by murder)#and yeah with a human those measures are not necessary! they /could/ just put roy in jail.#and dean agrees in the very next sentence. but to go back a minute#dean does have black-and-white thinking but it's not in the way people think it is#he doesn't even realize this about himself yet until the next season but to him 'monster' doesn't mean 'inhuman'#a 'monster' means 'killing people or being dangerous to innocents'#so yes humans can be monsters. in fact I think that's what his problem with max a few eps later is too.#and 'monsters' can be worthy of saving#sam here draws the line at killing a human because that would make them 'no better than he is'#but by even having this conversation they're also deciding about human lives who lives and who dies. so like!!!#and yeah that does not make them as bad as he (or really sue ann) is. because funnily enough later in this episode sam does actually#get sue ann killed. he does it in order to stop her from killing dean; which she is doing in order to save layla.#he is deciding who lives and who dies.#actually I'm coming back to these tags to add further on to them. because knowledge makes you god in this universe#if you know about the supernatural and about what it can do to people; you have a couple of options.#you can go out there; be a hunter; hunt some monsters; save some people#or you can decide not to do anything with your knowledge. with the possibility that; from your inaction; people could be harmed#and the thing is that both of these things means you're deciding who lives and who dies!!! either by taking action or by passivity#and we learn later that god himself has chosen a passive course of inaction. so either way. one way or another you'll be playing god!!!!

tags via Jo @humandisorderincarnatedean <3

HMMMMMMM

[lambmotifz]

thinking about how dean’s monstrosity is about enjoying violence and torturing people (mostly men) & sam’s monstrosity is about being inherently unclean and his body being used as a tool for use and abuse by others

[silver-stake-through-the-heart]

As far as I'm concerned, changelings are the lowest of the low when it comes to monsters. Killing and eating adults is one thing, but abducting and eating kids? That's just plain wrong.

–Dean about Changelings, in The Men of Letters Bestiary

Mylings are the spirits of unwanted kids (and even babies) who were abandoned in the woods and left to die. (…) These spirits seek revenge against the adults who abandoned them, and who can blame them? But even after they get their revenge, they prey on any adult who has abandoned a child, whether that abandonment was physical or emotional. (…) Mylings are the only monsters I'm tempted to let slide. Kids whose parents left them to die? I can understand why they're so pissed.

–Dean about Mylings, in The Men of Letters Bestiary

[shadystranger]

I just think if sam was dying and needed a heart-lung transplant dean would go outside kill the first person he sees and gets him that heart-lung transplant

[scoobydoodean]

Here to collect my anons! Yet again—my inbox is open, anon! What's the deal?

The only part of this I'd like to address further is the notion that Sam wanted to save Dean for Dean but Dean wanted to save Sam for Dean. Anon, what you are doing when you say that is you are taking Sam's speech from Season 9's The Purge and questioning absolutely nothing about the truth of what Sam said during that speech... and that speech is a steaming pile of bullshit. In fact, my post this is about called back to a portion of that speech to point out how Sam is really describing himself rather than Dean.

Here's Sam's little speech from 9.13 "The Purge" for reference:

Everything that happens in season 8 and 9 and before demonstrates that this is not true.

Courtney already pointed out that Sam specifically does The Trials instead of Dean based upon the fact that Sam says he wants to live, and Dean doesn't. Sam wants to show Dean to the light at the end of the tunnel (8.14).

The thing is, almost instantly (by 8.16) Sam starts saying he's going to die.

Why does Sam's bravado disappear so fast? Because Sam is in a terrible mental state, and has been since before the start of the season! Sam has been in the midst of a mental breakdown he's been refusing to acknowledge since the end of season 7! He didn't want Dean to die, so he insisted on doing The Trials to keep Dean from dying doing them! But then Sam starts to think HE'S going to die... that the light at the end of the tunnel he promised he could lead them both toward is a pipe dream!

Sam's mental state deteriorates further over the course of The Trials. Sam starts to think he SHOULD die, because he's not clean, and he gets this very broken idea in his head that The Trials can purify him so he can be clean now (8.21).

This is... a scene throwing up red flags left and right in terms of Sam's mental state! Sam literally thinks some ancient quest can fix the problems he has with himself—the shame he's carried with him since childhood as a result of childhood neglect... and he's going to reach a point by 8.23 that he wants to stop feeling that shame so badly and so desperately wants to believe The Trials can make him stop feeling that shame... that he realizes he wants The Trials to kill him! We are talking about a man who is suicidal and is going to use The Trials to kill himself.

Sam said "It's a suicide mission for you" in 8.14 and refused to let Dean do The Trials... but he himself ended up turning it into a suicide mission for himself!!!

Going back to 9.13 "The Purge", let's run through Sam's dialogue:

"I was ready to die." - The entire reason Sam insisted on doing The Trials instead of Dean was because he said Dean would treat them like a suicide mission. Meanwhile, Sam wanted to survive. He literally would not let Dean do The Trials because Dean was suicidal... but now he is shaming and guilting Dean for not letting Sam kill himself doing them.

"You didn't save me for me. You did it for you". This is an ugly reframing of events. Not only does Dean become increasingly worried for Sam's mental state over the course of the season, which explicitly culminates in the brother who said "I want to live and so should you" in 8.14 planning to kill himself to become clean.. . Sam also blames Dean for his mental state in 8.23! ...And why? Because Dean had friends. Sam specifically mentioned Cas and Benny and all but said he was going to commit suicide because Dean trusted them more than Sam. Dean is overtly 1) intervening to save a suicidal person 2) being guilted by his brother who is essentially blaming Dean for his imminent suicide. And NOW Sam is transforming the narrative again to make Dean the bad guy for saving him from committing suicide... the thing Sam insisted he was saving Dean from doing in 8.14.

"You can't stand the thought of being alone" - Sam says this... and yet if we think back... Dean literally did live without Sam between seasons 5 and 6. Dean was the one who told Sam to go back to Amelia. Sam, meanwhile, continuing to say he was going to leave when their business with Kevin was concluded, told Dean he had to choose between him and Benny—the only person Dean could have gone to when Sam left.

"You're certainly willing to do the sacrificing as long as you're not the one being hurt" - Said by Sam, who kept Dean from doing The Trials because Dean was going to die doing them, then promptly started planning to die doing them himself. Hmmm.

"No, Dean. I wouldn't." - Yeah... he'll do worse!

Edit: Also this.

I think the real difference between Dean's and Sam's codependency in s9 and s10 respectively is that Sam was willing to die and Dean couldn't handle that so he did something he knew Sam wouldn't have wanted in a million years. It was selfish. Sam's was more about recognizing that Dean didn't deserve to live a miserable isolated life. He was doing it for Dean, not for himself. He couldn't have known something that bad would happen. It was an unfortunate consequence, but Dean knew that letting an angel possess Sam would have consequences.

"Sam was willing to die"

(from 8x14)

(from 8x23)

"Dean couldn't handle that so he did something he knew Sam wouldn't have wanted in a million years."

(from 9x01)

(from 9x01 *note that isn't actually dean, it's gadreel pretending to be dean)

"Sam's was more about recognizing that Dean didn't deserve to live a miserable isolated life. He was doing it for Dean, not for himself."

(from 10x18)

"He couldn't have known something that bad would happen."

(from 10x18)

(from 10x21)

"Dean knew that letting an angel possess Sam would have consequences."

(from 9x01)

(from 9x01)

i just think perhaps you should rewatch the show, anon. also, @scoobydoodean this is me officially forwarding any further discussion to you.

[ardentpoop]

every day someone irritates the living shit out of me with a take like this

yes that’s what the show tells us. but is the show right??? (hint: ABSOLUTELY NOT)

[opheliasam]

i Like to think that the guy we see dean w at the end of the bridge isn’t even sam bc like ? sam dies old and jack as god knows that sam n dean cannot be together bc Jesus Fuck . and so he just grants dean a version of sam he could love forever and forever (sammy) whilst letting sam be in a place (far away from the horrors of the family he never chose) to be in a place where he could truly be content and at peace (with the people he feels fully safe around who are good and healthy for him)

[kerryweaverlesbian]

Is Castiel??? Threatening to kill a child?? To avoid giving up an item they didn't even know they had and have no pressing use for???

It might be an adult, the picture it's very small but even still jesus christ??? Just give him the skeleton key it's fine. Cas goes off the rails so quickly when Dean isn't ethically regulating him lmao.

[scoobydoodean]

So—Dean is refusing to torture Alistair in the beginning of "On The Head Of A Pin", right? And Uriel is telling him he has to. And you’d think that when Dean asks to speak to Cas alone, it’d be in an effort to bargain or plead (something Uriel isn’t amenable to at all and never has been) or to let Cas give him a more candid and convincing argument on how this is the right thing.

But when Dean gets Cas alone, he just wants to know why Uriel is in charge of Cas now, and then he wants to tell Cas torturing Alistair is going to bring something horrifying out of Dean. Cas doesn’t do any convincing at all. He doesn’t make any further argument for why Dean has to do this—he doesn’t tell Dean it’s for the greater good. Hell—it seems like Cas got demoted because he balked at asking Dean to do this to begin with. Cas doesn’t want Dean to do this and doesn’t try to convince him to! But the scene cuts and Dean is pushing his torture-set-on-wheels into the room where Alistair is being kept! So why? How does that interaction result in Dean suddenly deciding to do something he was refusing to do moments before???

I think it’s because Cas showed Dean sympathy.

The episode opens with Dean trying to tell Sam he’s hurting. He’s grieving Pam (they’re driving from her funeral), he feels like her death is his fault, he feels like they aren’t making any progress on saving the world—they’re just fuck ups who are going to fail.

DEAN I'm tired of burying friends, Sam. SAM Look, we catch a fresh trail— DEAN And we follow it, I know. Like I said, I'm just—I'm just getting tired. SAM Well, get angry!

No sympathy from Sam. Sam wants Dean to nut up—and that's what Sam said last episode too, and it's what he said the episode before that too while under the Siren's spell.

They get into the motel and Uriel and Cas are standing there waiting for them when Dean just wanted to sleep after an awful day, and Uriel says they're needed. Dean says he just got back from needed, and Uriel tells him to mind his tone. Then of course,

CASTIEL Dean, we know this is difficult to understand. URIEL And we— URIEL gives CASTIEL a significant look. URIEL —don't care.

So no one is showing Dean any sympathy, right? Everyone is telling him to shut up and do what needs to be done—except Cas. Cas is sympathizing with him. And when Dean gets Cas alone?

DEAN You ask me to open that door and walk through it, you will not like what walks back out. CASTIEL For what it's worth, I would give anything not to have you do this.

And that's all it takes. That's literally all it takes—is just a single shred of sympathy—someone saying that they care that Dean is in pain—that they care what this will do to him and don't wish this on him. Just someone saying that they understand and that they care is enough and Dean agrees.

Don't ever let anyone tell you Dean "needs tough love".

[luvtheoriez]

SPOTIFY  WRAPPED  ‘22   »  #95  acquainted  —  the  weeknd

“  to  say  that  we're  in  love  is  dangerous  but  ,  girl  ,  i'm  so  glad  we're  acquainted  .  ”  /  @wasteslands​

[shallowrambles]

Another thing since I’m thinking about #spnwin, PTSD, moral injury, and turning your back on your idealized beliefs…and losing sight of what’s right and wrong…

With Gadreel, Dean became tyrant parent to help his sick child, overriding Sam’s wish to Do Not Resuscitate. He overrides Sam’s autonomy again. If he had not done this, Sam would have died.

With Cas missing, Dean jumped to torture enemies for information, returning to his metaphorical Hell in order to find Cas. If he had not done this, Cas would have died.

So, these outcomes reinforced the illusion of necessity.

[silver-stake-through-the-heart]

Since @what-the-fuck-is-supernatural pointed it out in this post...

Thee true parallel between 7x03 - The Girl Next Door and 7x13 - The Slice Girls

[butterfirefly]

"I tried opening the Devil's Gate" okie dokie pookie

[hexedwinchester]

I would say that neither of them are the moral compass but ok

hi moral-questioning noni,

Occassionally and if you squint really hard 🤣

Thanks for the chat!

[incesthemes]

i don't think supernatural is good for my health.