#culturally christian atheists

[boreal-sea]

there are literally laws on the books in some states that atheists can't hold office but whatever dude

Yeah, and you can't kill Bigfoot in Washington. A weird law is meaningless if it's not enforced, and those laws are not enforced, because guess what?

Atheists are not systemically oppressed in the USA.

Meanwhile, lemme count up the number of Islamophobic hate crimes in the USA since 9/11...

(And yes - I'm atheist too, I'm just not a whiny baby desperate to feel oppressed for some reason)

[hero-israel]

...skepchick out there making videos about feminism v. israel. another leftist i used to respect gone, it seems. though I do wonder how she, and all the other everything-israel-says-is-a-lie people will deal with the un report - it seems to be this report is the first genuinely supported claim for sexual misconduct by the idf towards palestinians. I mean. I guess THAT bit will be considered true and fully evidenced, but that hamas terrorists raped people and used sexual violence as a systemic part of their violent dreams of restoring the caliphate is just made up. but still.

I defended her during "elevatorgate." I had online arguments about that for months and I took her side. And I never demanded she prove the incident had happened.

Not sure what's more disgusting:

-Leftists who build their entire moral framework around Jewish history and suffering and learn nothing from it

-Culturally Christian atheists who don't have to be embarrassed by believing in talking snakes and immaculate conceptions but who keep all the suspicions and contempt for Jews that their families and societies gave them

[chanaleah]

It's interesting to me that growing up Jewish seems to have given me a fundamentally different understanding of religion from my Christian friends. For me, I think that your religion (or ethnicity, since Judaism is an ethnicity) is not something you can get rid of. You can convert to another religion, but I never understood friends of mine who said that they weren't Christian, but Atheist.

"But you celebrate Christmas, right?" I asked them.

"Well, yeah," they said, "but we don't celebrate Christian Christmas. I'm atheist."

That didn't make any sense to me. Sure, maybe the version of Christmas they celebrated in their house looked more like treats and presents and less like nativity scenes and prayers, but it was still the same holiday.

So, I came up with the concept of the difference between "Not Christian" and "non-Christian". Which of course my "not christian" friends didn't understand. But my idea was that there are people who are "not christian" - mainly culturally christian atheists - and people who are "non-christian", like Jews, Hindus, Muslims, or others.

Because while both groups generally don't identify as Christian, we have different experiences. As a Jew, my experience as a religious minority is not the same as that of a culturally Christian atheist. They're not Christian, and I'm not Christian, but in different ways.

[chroniclesofajewishteen]

Just because your church was a cult it doesn’t mean my synagogue is one

[jessicalprice]

Sorry, Christian atheists, but “Christianity traumatized me” is not a get-out-of-accountability-free card for upholding Christian supremacy through your treatment of members of minority cultures, reiterating Christian evangelism and colonialism but for your WASP brand of atheism, promoting Christian purity and hierarchy but with the serial numbers filed off, insisting that the Christian model of culture is the only one that exists and shouting down members of non-Christian cultures about their own cultures and experiences, etc.

Oh, you don’t like members of non-Christian cultures pointing out the ways in which your behaviors continue to normalize and uphold Christian hegemony?

THEN MAYBE STOP ACTING LIKE CHRISTIANS.

[whereserpentswalk]

Fellow pagans. Remember that the pagan experience is not purely an ex Christian experience. That experience is worth talking about, but please don't talk about the pagan experience as if leaving Christianity is universal to being neopagan.

Ex atheist pagans deserve to have their experiences acknowledged by the community.

Ex Muslim pagans deserve to have their experiences acknowledged by the community.

Non practicing Jewish pagans deserve to have their experiences acknowledged by the community.

Pagans who have been pagan for most or all of their life deserve to have their experiences acknowledged by the community.

[normalhumanperson]

Things I would prefer to be called rather than “culturally christian”

+ Raised christian

+ Has a christian background

+ Exchristian

These still acknowledge a person’s history with christianity while also respecting the fact that they have left it. Hope this helps!

[menlove]

the way this website balks at the term "culturally christian" is so funny to me like. oh shit you mean the religion our government and culture is structured around might impact you even if you're atheist and ESPECIALLY if you're ex-christian? noooo it's the people using it to describe a phenomenon of western culture that are wrong

[nonbinary-vents]

One really awesome thing about being a Jew is how widely accepted it is in our people that we all have very complicated and personal feelings about the idea of a god, or any sort of religious concept at all. I love being able to explore my own beliefs as a person who doesn’t believe in a higher power, and I fucking love seeing those beliefs represented in so many Jews, in so many theological Jewish sects and schools of thoughts, in so many centuries of Jewish history. Judaism is all about those in-betweens, it’s all about complex ideas and shades of greys and personal understandings of life

Above all else, there’s always a search in Judaism for meaning, for purpose, for the human experience. And wether that manifest itself into ideas of a tangible higher power, or some vague feeling of something making existence meaningful (like for me!) or anything in between or outside of that— it’s all accepted, it’s all genuine and okay and valid interpretations of Jewish beliefs. And it’s also accepted to not believe in any sort of spirituality or religion, or to not know, or to not care! We’re all just Jews and we’re all just walking through the world together! I just love it so much, words escape me when I think about it

[finalgirlsamwinchester]

guy who so desperately tries to find god. who wants to have faith in a higher authority to guide him out of the hole he's in. from the weight of guilt from simply existing, as the person he is. but every time he thinks he's answered his higher calling it turns out he's made the Morally Incorrect choice and his path to goodness and holiness was the road to the devil all along

[keshetchai]

Do you ever just get obsessed with how cultural Christians (esp atheist or agnostic ones) often openly choose to maintain Santa Claus for their kids?

Like think about this with me:

A group of people who don't actively align themselves with religious life, religious institutions (churches) or other traditions, and may even be total atheists STILL sometimes choose to do Santa Claus for their children, because THEY had Santa Claus as children.

The parents give their child a folk demigod (lesser deity?) of outsized importance to children SPECIFICALLY, and teach them the demigod is definitely totally real. They maintain this active belief as long as possible through childhood. They may encourage and actively engage in this belief with their children moreso than anything else involving the religion it comes from (aside from perhaps, the easter bunny). They know Santa isn't real, does not exist, and is a fiction.

They know their children will learn this demigod is a lie. Subconsciously or consciously, the child then learns that Santa Claus is really only as real as the parent intention to make him real, and the child belief in that truth. The child grows up. Knows Santa is a fiction. And then they make Santa for their children too, because that's the only real thing about Santa — parents knowing it's a fiction and then passing it on anyways.

I just like...am deeply fascinated by this unique cultural training of accepting that the Santa deity isn't dead or anything so extreme, and even though he's made up, he is still extremely important and the fiction gets passed on while explicitly knowing and acting upon the fiction. Parents have to be Santa, they can't just encourage belief and sit back. No no, they must actively CREATE Santa's existence for the belief to work. And they do this willingly!

It's not that I think believing in a myth is unusual in any religion (like we don't need to believe hundreds of thousands of Israelites fled Egypt all at once to observe passover or even to think some Hebrews did flee Egypt and the legend developed from there, or w/e), so much as like, this is an incredibly obvious and well known one that every adult Knows 100% is Not Real, not even based on any kind of reality or possible actual legend, Santa doesn't have all those powers, he does not come to your house or get your wishlist (prayers).

No adult has a pure and genuine belief that Santa is a real being who visits and brings children gifts.

I just want to study everyone who actively is like "I don't believe in God or go to church but like, I'll obviously still do Santa for the kids, that's fun."

(Regina George voice: so you agree? Religion doesn't need to be grounded in imperial facts of science in order to provide substantial benefits to people, foster positive emotions and connections within communities, and for people to derive meaning from it? It doesn't matter if God is real, if you yourself make the benefits of God being real happen for yourself and others?")

[starlightomatic]

Rachel already said this but I think it deserves its own post. The reason most ex-Christians in Christian countries are culturally Christian isn’t because they were raised Christian. It’s because they still currently live in Christian countries.

[hindahoney]

So tired of the only respect given to Jews being about how we wrestle with our belief in God and it's starting to feel like "atheist jews can stay but if you're an observant jew you're oppressive and weird"

[blujayonthewing]

[jessicalprice]

culture isn’t modular

I did a thread (actually several) on Twitter a few years ago about Christianity’s attempts to paint itself as modular, and I’ve been seeing them referenced here in the cultural christianity Discourse, and a few people have DMed me asking me to post it here, so here’s a rehash of several of those threads:

A big part of why Christian atheists have trouble seeing how culturally Christian they still are is that Christianity advertises itself as being modular, which is not how belief systems have worked for most of human history. 

A selling point of Christianity has always been the idea that it's plug-and-play: you don't have to stop being Irish or Korean or Nigerian to be Christian, you don't have to learn a new language, you keep your culture. 

And you’re just also Christian.

(You can see, then, why so many Christian atheists struggle with the idea that they’re still Christian--to them, Christianity is this modular belief in God and Jesus and a few other tenets, and everything else is... everything else. Which is, not to get ahead of myself, very compatible with some tacit white supremacy: the “everything else” is goes unexamined for its cultural specificity. It’s just Normal. Default. Neutral.)

Evangelicals in particular love to contrast this to Islam, to the idea that you have to learn Arabic and adopt elements of Arab culture to be Muslim, which helps fuel the image of Islam as a Foreign Ideology that's taking over the West.

The rest of us don’t have that particular jack

Meanwhile, Christians position Christianity as a modular component of your life. Keep your culture, your traditions, your language and just swap out your Other Religion Module for a Christianity Module.

The end game is, in theory, a rainbow of diverse people and cultures that are all one big happy family in Christ. We're going to come back to how Christianity isn't actually modular, but for the moment, let's talk about it as if it had succeeded in that design goal. 

Even if Christianity were successfully modular, if it were something that you could just plug in to the Belief System Receptor in a culture and leave the rest of it undisturbed, the problem is most cultures don't have a modular Belief System Receptor. Spirituality has, for the entirety of human history, not been something that's modular. It's deeply interwoven with the rest of culture and society. You can't just pull it out and plug something else in and have the culture remain stable.

(And to be clear, even using the term “spirituality” here is a sop to Christianity. What cultures have are worldviews that deal with humanity’s place in the universe/reality; people’s relationships to other people; the idea of individual, societal, or human purpose; how the culture defines membership; etc. These may or may not deal with the supernatural or “spiritual.”)

And so OF COURSE attempting to pull out a culture's indigenous belief system and replace it with Christianity has almost always had destructive effects on that culture.

Not only is Christianity not representative of "religion" full stop, it's actually arguably *anomalous* in its attempt to be modular (and thus universal to all cultures) rather than inextricable from culture.

Now, of course, it hasn't actually succeeded in that--the US is a thoroughly Christian culture--but it does lead to the idea that one can somehow parse out which pieces of culture are "religious" versus which are "secular". That framing is antithetical to most cultures. E.g. you can't separate the development of a lot of cultural practices around what people eat and how they get it from elements of their worldview that Christians would probably label "religious." But that entire *framing* of religious vs. secular is a Christian one.

Is Passover a religious holiday or a secular one? The answer isn't one or the other, or neither, or both. It's that the framing of this question is wrong.

And Christianity isn’t a plugin, however much it wants to be

Moreover, Christianity isn't actually culture-neutral or modular. 

It's easy for this to get obscured by seeing Christianity as a tool of particular cultures' colonialism (e.g. the British using Christianity to spread British culture) or of whiteness in general, and not seeing how Christianity itself is colonial. This helps protect the idea that “true” Christianity is good and innocent, and if priests or missionaries are converting people at swordpoint or claiming land for European powers or destroying indigenous cultures, that must be a misuse of Christianity, a “fake” or “corrupted” Christianity.

Never mind that for every other culture, that culture is what its members do. Christianity, uniquely, must be judged on what it says its ideals are, not what it actually is. 

Mistaking the engine for the exhaust

But it’s not just an otherwise innocent tool of colonialism: it’s a driver of it. 

At the end of the day, it’s really hard to construct a version of the Great Commission that isn’t inherently colonial. The end-goal of a world in which everyone is Christian is a world without non-Christian cultures. (As is the end goal of a world in which everyone is atheist by Christian definitions.)

Yet we focus on the way Christianity came with British or Spanish culture when they colonized a place--the churches are here because the Spaniards who conquered this area were Catholic--and miss how Christianity actually has its own cultural tropes that it brings with it. It's more subtle, of course, when Christianity didn't come in explicitly as the result of military conquest.

Or put another way, those cultures didn't just shape the Christianity they brought to places they colonized--they were shaped by it. How much of the commonality between European cultures is because of Christianity?

It’s not all a competition

A lot of Christians (cultural and practicing), if you push them, will eventually paint you a picture of a very Hobbesian world in which all religions, red in tooth and claw, are trying to take over the world. It's the "natural order" to attempt to eliminate all cultures but your own. 

If you point out to them that belief and worldview are deeply personal, and proselytizing is objectifying, because you're basically telling the person you're proselytizing to that who they are is wrong, you often get some version of "that's how everyone is, though."

Like we all go through life seeing other humans as incomplete and fundamentally flawed and the only way to "fix" them is to get them to believe what we believe. And, like, that is not how everyone relates to others?

But it's definitely how both practicing Christians and Christian antitheists relate to others. If, for Christians, your lack of Jesus is a fundamental flaw in you that needs to be fixed, for New Atheists, your “religion” (that is, your non-Christian culture) is a fundamental flaw in you that needs to be fixed. Neither Christians nor New Atheists are able to relate to anyone else as fine as they are. It's all a Hobbesian zero-sum game. It's all a game of conversion with only win and loss conditions. You are, essentially, only an NPC worth points.

The idea of being any other way is not only wrong, but impossible to them. If you claim to exist in any other way, you are either deluded or lying.

So, we get Christian atheists claiming that if you identify as Jewish, you can’t really be an atheist. Or sometimes they’ll make an exception for someone who’s “only ethnically Jewish.” If the only way you relate to your Jewishness is as ancestry, then you can be an atheist. Otherwise, you’re lying. 

Or, if you’re not lying, you’re deluded. You just don’t understand that there’s no need for you to keep any dietary practices or continue to engage in any form of ritual or celebrate any of those “religious” Jewish holidays, and by golly, this here “ex”-Christian atheist is here to separate out for you which parts of your culture are “religious” and which ones are “secular.”

Religious/secular is a Christian distinction

A lot of atheists from Christian backgrounds (whether or not they were raised explicitly Christian) have trouble seeing how Christian they are because they've accepted the Christian idea that “religion” is modular. (If we define “religion” the way Christians (whether practicing or cultural) define it, Christianity might be the only religion that actually exists. Maybe Islam?)

When people from non-Christian cultures talk about the hegemonically Christian and white supremacist nature of a lot of atheism, it reflects how outside of Christianity, spirituality/worldview isn't something you can just pull out of a culture.

Christian atheists tend to see the cultural practices of non-Christians as "religious" and think that they should give them up (talk to Jewish atheists who keep kosher about Christian atheist reactions to that). But because Christianity positions itself as modular, people from Christian backgrounds tend not to see how Christian the culture they imagine as "neutral" or "normal" actually is. In their minds, you just pull out the Christianity module and are left with a neutral, secular society.

So, if people from non-Christian backgrounds would just give up their superstitions, they'd look the same as Christian atheists. 

Your secularism is specifically post-Christian

Of course, that culture with the Christianity module pulled out ISN'T neutral. So the idea that that's what "secular society" should look like ends up following the same pattern as Christian colonialism throughout history: the promise that you can keep your culture and just plug in a different belief system (or, purportedly, a lack of a belief system), which has always, always been a lie. The secular, "enlightened" life that most Christian atheists envision is one that's still built on white, western Christianity, and the idea that people should conform to it is still attempting to homogenize society to a white Christian ideal. 

For people from cultures that don't see spirituality as modular, this is pretty obvious. It's obvious to a lot of people from non-white Christian cultures that have syncretized Christianity in a way that doesn't truck with the modularity illusion. 

I also think, even though they're not conceptualizing it in these terms, that it's actually obvious to a lot of evangelicals. (The difference being that white evangelical Christianity enthusiastically embraces white supremacy, so they see the destruction of non-Christian culture as good.) But I think it's invisible to a lot of mainline non-evangelical Christians, and it's definitely invisible to a lot of people who leave Christianity.

And that inability to see culture outside a Christian framing means that American secularism is still shaped like Christianity. It's basically the same text with a few sentences deleted and some terms replaced.

Which, again, is by design. The idea that you can deconvert to (Christian) atheism and not have to change much besides your opinions about God is the mirror of how easy it’s supposed to be to convert to Christianity.

Human societies don’t follow evolutionary biology

The Victorian Christian framing underlying current Western ideas of enlightened secularism, that religious practice (and human culture in general) is subject to the same sort of unilateral, simple evolution toward a superior state to which they, at the time, largely reduced biological evolution, is deeply white supremacist.

It posits religious evolution as a constantly self-refining process from "primitive" animism and polytheism to monotheism to white European/American Christianity. For Christians, that's the height of human culture. For ex-Christians, the next step is Christian-derived secularism.

Maybe you’ve seen this comic?

The thing is, animism isn’t more “primitive” than polytheism, and polytheism isn’t more “primitive” than monotheism. Older doesn’t mean less advanced/sophisticated/complex. Hinduism isn’t more “primitive” than Judaism just because it’s polytheistic and Judaism is monotheistic. 

Human cultures continue to change and adapt. (Arguably, older religions are more sophisticated than newer ones because they’ve had a lot more time to refine their practices and ideologies instead of having to define them.) Also, not all cultures are part of the same family tree. Christianity and Islam may be derived from Judaism, but Judaism and Hinduism have no real relationship to one another. 

But in this worldview, Christianity is "normal" religion, which is still more primitive than enlightened secularism, but more advanced than all those other primitive, superstitious, irrational beliefs.

Just like Christians, when Christian atheists do try to make room for cultures that aren't white and European-derived, the tacit demand is "okay, but you have to separate out the parts of your culture that the Christian sacred-secular divide would deem 'religious.'"

Either way, people from non-Christian cultures, if they’re to be equals, are supposed to get with the program and assimilate.

You’re not qualified to be a universal arbiter of what culture is good

Christian atheists usually want everyone to unplug that Religion module!

So, for example, you have ex-Christian atheists who are down with pluralism trying to get ex-Christian atheists who aren't to leave Jews alone by pointing out that you can be atheist and Jewish.

But some of us aren’t atheist. (I’m agnostic by Christian standards.) And the idea that Jews shouldn’t be targets for harassment because they can be atheists and therefore possibly have some common sense is still demanding that people from other cultures conform to one culture’s standard of what being “rational” is.  

Which, like, is kind of galling when y’all don’t even understand what “belief in G-d” means to Jews, and people from a culture that took until the 1800s to figure out that washing their hands was good are setting themselves up as the Universal Arbiters of Rationality.

(BTW, most of this also holds true for non-white Christianity, too. I guarantee you most white Christian atheists don’t have a good sense of what role church plays in the lives of Black communities, so maybe shut up about it.)

In any case, reducing Christianity--a massive, ambient phenomenon inextricable from Western culture--to the specific manifestation of Christian practice that you grew up with is, frankly, absurd. 

And you can’t be any help in deconstructing hegemony when you refuse to perceive it and understand that it isn’t something you can take off like a garment, and you probably won’t ever recognize and uproot all the ways in which it affects you, especially when you are continuing to live within it. 

What hegemony doesn’t want you to know

One of the ways hegemony sustains and perpetuates itself is by reinforcing the idea not so much that other ways of being and knowing are evil (although that’s usually a stage in an ideology becoming hegemonic), but that they’re impossible. That they don’t actually exist. 

See, again, the idea that anyone claiming to live differently is either lying or deluded.

There are few clearer examples of how pervasive Christian hegemony is than Christian atheists being certain every religion works like Christianity. Hegemonic Christianity wants you to think that all cultures work like Christianity because it wants their belief systems to be modular so you can just ...swap them. And it wants to pretend that culture/worldview is a free market where it can just outcompete other cultures.

But that’s... not how anything works. 

And the truth of the matter is that white nationalist Christians shoot at synagogues and Sikh temples and mosques because those other ways of being can’t be allowed to exist. 

They don’t shoot at atheist conventions because there’s room in hegemonic Christianity for Christian atheists precisely because Christian atheists are still culturally Christian. Their atheism is Christian-shaped.

They may not like you. They’re definitely going to try to convert you. They may not want you to be able to hold public office or teach their kids.

But the only challenge you’re providing is that of The Existence of Disbelief. And that’s fine. That makes you a really safe Other to have around. You can See The Light and not have to change much.

What you’re not doing is providing an example of a whole other way of being and knowing that (often) predates Christianity and is completely separate from it and has managed to survive it and continue to live and thrive (there’s a reason Christians like to speak of Jews and Judaism in the past tense, and it’s similar to the reason white people like to speak of indigenous peoples of the Americas in the past tense). 

That’s not a criticism--it’s fine to just... be post-Christian. There’s not actually anything wrong with being culturally Christian. The problems come in when you start denying that it’s a thing, or insisting that you, unique among humankind, are above Having A Culture.

But it does mean that you don’t pose the same sort of threat to Christianity that other cultures do, and hence, less violence. 

[flowercrowncrip]

I don’t usually post about media stuff here but I’m so excited that Liz Carr has been cast an an angel in good omens 2.

There’s such a common Christian narrative that disability is a sign of disconnection from God. It’s a curse from god or the work of the devil or something along those lines. It’s an idea that touches so many disabled people in negative ways – it suggests disabled people are being punished for something, or that we’re not as close to God as abled people. People say that disability won’t go with someone to heaven without knowing what a person’s relationship to their disability is.

To have a visibly disabled woman cast as an angel is exciting because it shows a disabled woman being close to god, a person with a visibly disabled body has been cast as a being that traditionally is associated with embodying perfection.

I really hope this is the case anyway