#crowboy meta

[jacksmusesp5]

‘Adult reputation’ or rather, ‘reputation among the adults’.

Just in case it needed emphasising why the translation choice of ‘public image’ and ‘celebrity’ was just plain bad.png

It wasn’t to do with his image. At all. 

That is but a side effect of his charisma. It’s to make things easier for him, for adults to accept him, for people to give him less of a hard time for his age and situation....

....as he alluded to before, even. 

Hell, he was empathising with Sae’s plight for the exact same reason- struggling to get by in the adult world. Needing to grow up. Needing to be smart, and cheat the game that you’re thrust in, lest deal with the cards you’re dealt.

Though he does talk about ‘his fame and trust vanishing’, that doesn’t change that it wasn’t the thing he held in the highest regard. He desired to be useful and reliable to adults, because for one, the second he’s not useful he’s ‘punished’ in some way, ruined or dead meat thanks to Shido (just in case that hasn’t been emphasised enough)....

..and for another, Goro wanted to be seen by Shido as worthy, and essential as his right-hand man. To change Shido’s cognition of him.

To not have to FEAR him.

That meant no matter what, Goro had to surpass everyone else before him. Every adult. Ergo, his reputation had to be airtight, and with that, he was constantly on the climb, thinking that he would at least get ahead of him, and eventually have him respect him. That he would one day pose an legitimate threat despite being an illegitimate child.

Expectation, on top of expectation. One task, one crime, after another. And it was all for naught - it simply wasn’t enough. And he realised too late.

That is what Goro was lamenting, rather than his fame.

[akechicrimes]

about to come at the dashboard w goro meta so apologies in advance for me being unable to shut the fuck up about crowboy

[jacksmusesp5]

Did... anyone notice Goro straight-up calling Akira by his first name? 

As far as I can see, it’s even present like this in the JP. Considering he calls him ‘Joker’ for the rest of the time.... 

Well then.

[jacksmusesp5]

tlgr2014

replied to your post

“Have to say, I really like that Robin Hood is noted in one of the...”

I actually really like getting into Akechi debates, specifically when his Persona's are called into question. What exactly makes you think that Robin Hood came first? I mean, I know the theming calls for 'Literary Figure' -> 'Trickster' but I honestly think that Akechi reverses that theme. It just seems weird to me that someone with such a garbage reputation Akechi used to have as a bastard would result in a Persona based on Robin Hood. That's why I personally believe Loki came first.

Well, it isn’t just that it follows the rule of Literary Figure first, but precisely what that represents as a rebellion for that person. After all, Joker is a Trickster even before his ultimate Persona, so this doesn’t even apply to him.

It’s hand in hand with how Personas are evoked to begin with- through facing hardship, and accepting an ideal mask to project onto the world. Robin Hood is a hero figure, and Goro idolised those. He’s a kid through and through, impoverished at that. He was unloved by adults and shunned by other kids, so what if he became their hero?

Plus.. his related Crow outfit. There’s no way he could have faked it, since it acts naturally when he’s in the Metaverse with the others. Which ties in perfectly with the lore, as has been consistently given. Which leads me to believe that he had to be the first (also notable is that he makes a point of going to you in the Crow outfit, not the Black Mask.. an odd choice to make, if that was really his truest self)

On the flip side, the Black Mask is something that has to be summoned consciously, in part by summoning Loki. The way it manifested, as well as the ‘cognition’ aura it has is bizarre.

The Black Mask also, is symbolised as the Knight to the King, as opposed to the Prince, aka the son. A circumstantial thing, not an inherent part of his existence. That dark outfit heavily ties into Loki, so it stands to reason that these both resulted from getting involved with Shido.

Given Loki’s theming of Black and White Justice, aka Reversed Justice, revenge, all of that... I find it hard to believe that Robin Hood appeared after that, because that would imply that it was evidently tempered when he arose. More likely, he already had that good in him - that Upright Justice - that simply went skew-iff when things went even further south. It fits in with his character overall- someone who had become warped, but was ultimately good inside.

He resented, definitely, but wasn’t hell-bent on revenge before he met Shido. At least, not to the extent you meet him for the last time.

I mean, it’s undeniable that Goro’s lot became exponentially worse after getting involved with Shido. Not only was he an unloved bastard child with years of abuse and stigma to contend with, he was a hitman, and forced into the role of a public figure, while keeping on his toes. Nonstop. He not only had to work hard to appease adults, he had to diminish his own self, and control his own emotions to an extent that is frightening.

It ties into his sin of ‘Emptiness’, in that he had to become a puppet for the public, and his father. What greater ‘emptiness’ is there, than a shapeshifter for a Persona? And for that matter, one that has the ability to drive the host and others to run wild? One that manifested an ability as if it were a cognitive drug to save his sanity?

I do believe the potential for Loki was there from the moment Goro awoke the first time, but the conditions for that particular awakening weren’t met. This I believe is something that Yaldabaoth exploited, driving Goro through the ground as an experiment to reach his ‘maximum potential’. Engineering fate to the worst outcome to trigger the amount of stress needed to evoke a Persona (Labrys, much?).. sounds like a manipulative-God-like thing to do.

There was no coincidence in how things panned out at the beginning, after all.

[jacksmusesp5]

prime example of abusive behavior from shido: when he acted like he had no influence on the murders he caused akechi to commit for him, and gloating about how he manipulated him with affection. pure abuser behavior right there, putting the blame on the victim entirely and then using that to justify abusing them.

This, in particular, is precisely why I’m interested in the ‘dance’ part of the lines, and that ‘deep down’ part makes it even worse. 

Shido knows what makes Goro tick, so much so Goro himself wasn’t even aware of it. His Cognitive of Goro tells the real Goro his innermost feelings as if they’re a stain, but the ‘captain’ just outright says he pushed just the right buttons for Goro to feel that way in the first place. 

That’s the disturbing part- he was cognisant of, and even manipulated Goro’s inner feelings. Feelings he didn’t even make obvious.

Who’s to say he didn’t do the same when setting Sae up as a target? And worse, putting the Phantom Thief’s leader on the chopping block while making Goro do the job? Why would Shido suddenly make his Metaverse assassin, someone he had used specifically for making clean, untraceable deaths and scandals, responsible for an assassination in the real world?

Why Goro, of all people?

Shido singled out the two people in the world Goro was ‘coincidentally’ most attached to, endangered one, and forced him to destroy the other. He must have suspected something was up, sensed his unusual interest, and upped the ante to tighten his stranglehold on Goro. And it worked.

Speaking of that influence thing, I recall when Shido suggested to Goro that he ‘eliminate those he finds suspicious’. Interesting. It looks like he’s giving Goro agency to do what he thinks necessary, but the reality is it’s entirely under Shido’s terms. 

Because what does he say when Goro tries to negotiate?

So Shido ropes Goro in to doing his bidding, while making it out to be the choice he has made entirely out of his own desire. All the while forcibly isolating him from any and all sources of help once they become a ‘threat’.

Smooth move, you gaslighting piece of shit. 

[jacksmusesp5]

Note that Goro was about 15 (if that) when he discovered the Metaverse, before all the shit started happening with mass rampages and shutdowns. 

Given that he was merely 'cognitive sleuthing'.. at least at one point, since gaining his power (when he wasn’t able to reach the Palace ruler, for one..), he really was just like Naoto. After all, he had the capability to be a great detective- he’s a really smart cookie, this much is clearly evident in Sae’s Palace. 

It just got mixed up for the worse later, with Shido’s machinations. 

It’s like how a certain Danganronpa 2 character was noted as ‘Makoto Naegi taken a wrong turn’- similarly, due in volumes to a horrible mental state and situation warped out of his control by a puppet master.

[jacksmusesp5]

The very idea that everything Goro has been is.. seen as ‘fake’ makes me extremely uneasy whenever I see it. The rationale behind it just disturbs me.

One aspect of Goro that’s been troubling me is his inability to recognise his own, real emotions, and parse what they mean. That he’s ‘chained to pretences’ as if they are his lifeblood. He cannot express himself the way he wants to because he doesn’t know what he wants. But when that truth slips through the cracks of his psyche, he doesn’t know what to do with it.

What’s especially worrying is that those emotions get chained up in his quest for dominance over them. Control of his chaos is his crutch, but it’s also destroying him from the inside out. At times, he has to let it run riot in the Metaverse or risk going insane.

[jacksmusesp5]

It bothers me when people say that Goro was even responsible for ending up in his situation. Do you really think he could calculate that far?

Where Goro’s mistakes are concerned, with all things considered, I would certainly not say that his first mistake was going to Shido. What ultimately led him to Shido is a need for closure. 

Look, Shido is his father, it’s only natural someone would want closure on the terrible history caused by said father. Denying someone that would be pretty callous. It just so happened that said closure for him was mixed with a drive for justice, and translated out to ‘revenge’ at some point. 

When that happened is nebulous. 

At the same time, there’s this mix of ‘desiring his acceptance’ thrown in there, as if that might right all the wrongs that have been done to him. As if using him, in itself, would be just. So really, there’s a myriad of possible things that a possibly homeless kid sought to gain from his estranged father - one of them being security. 

Given that Goro thought he would have the upper hand over Shido - with the power he had that Shido didn’t - I don’t think he can be blamed for failing in this regard. He had no way to know just how trapped he would be.

[jacksmusesp5]

What I appreciate here in hindsight, is the Phantom Thieves don’t out Goro as a particular one being manipulated. They don’t draw attention to him in this light. 

Instead, it’s the police- it’s general. Which is the truth, since Goro is working with the police. He isn’t solely responsible in that part, and isn’t treated that way.

Though the way the narrative shafted Goro was.. utterly disgraceful, this part was well played.

[jacksmusesp5]

Shido had Goro ‘dancing for him’.

Being relied on makes Goro ‘so happy he could dance’.

What’s Crow doing in his All Out Attack finisher?

Dancing.

[jacksmusesp5]

Given his thinly-veiled and bold request, Goro had no reason to think he didn’t have a Palace. Hell, he even straight-up acknowledges an extremely personal desire in himself later, one that’s born from ‘worthless resentment’.

Thanks to Morgana’s commentary though, nobody checked his name while he was in the party, and for some reason nobody even tried to check before they knew he had a Persona. Not once. Odd, considering how potentially threatening his presence was to the group. 

You’d think they would at least look, to see what the deal was.

More strangely, Morgana didn’t believe it was possible for more 'multiple Persona users’ to even exist, let alone one with two awakened Personas. His ‘innate knowledge’ of persona is already suspect, and becomes even more so when he states that Goro’s appearance is ‘fake’, or a ‘lie’- the entire basis for that remark being, that Goro can use two separate powers.

So Morgana’s comment that Persona users can’t have Palaces at all... at the very least, it deserves a lot more scrutiny than it’s given.

As to unusual phenomenon in the cognitive worlds, we have Teddie. A Shadow - albeit a special kind - who not only managed to create a Shadow and Persona respectively, but his own body, as well. Considering how Loki appears to have awakened and how Goro uses him on himself particularly, there’s no way there isn’t a serious oddity in how his Persona-Shadow relationship forms.

Especially considering the overabundance of kegare in a Persona like Loki.

[jacksmusesp5]

So check this. This momentary pause, while Akechi ponders what Ann said about coming along with them. 

Given the context of this conversation, he’s just realised something. That the group, mixed feelings though they certainly have, do not consider him a liability who should be tossed away. 

They even give him a chance at his lowest. At, in Akechi’s perspective, his ‘most useless’. This gesture is unimaginably huge.

Even if they’re not friends. Even if he’s betrayed them before, and they have too much baggage between them to really be friends. Contrast with his ‘perfectly constructed’ relationship with Shido, with whom he got the idea that he should be tossed away in the first place.. and that’s where it hits.

The implications are barely creeping through to him, but even so, it’s quite a shock- he’s more to them now than he ever was to Masayoshi Shido.

While he says he ‘doesn’t get them’, there’s a part of him that actually does. And that’s the gesture he decides, on his own, to return when he shoots and barricades in his Cognitive.

If there’s anyone he wants to drag down with him, it will be ‘him’, not them.

[jacksmusesp5]

(Part 1) "Akechi deserved to die" I think is a very American mindset. Our Criminal & Justice system for minors is a mess (ex. kids can be trialed as adults and 16yo being sent to prison and not being released until they're like 50) and many aren't bothered by that. In Japan they're more focused on rehabilitating minors and giving them a new start (a really big theme throughout the game).

In Japan they’re more focused on rehabilitating minors and giving them a new start

Emphasis because this- this is the reason why he’s the teenaged antagonist. 

It’s also part of why the PT feel more inclined to work with and help him- he’s still young. They easily saw themselves in him and wanted to give him the chance he never had.

[jacksmusesp5]

We really needed to know more about the cognitive world in conjunction with Akechi, and Akechi himself.

There are too many things to cover, but namely:

How did Akechi learn to navigate the Metaverse, on his own, at the age of fifteen? 

What was his first Palace? What did he learn from that first Palace?

When and how did he awaken to his respective Personas? Do they have conflict with one another?

What did he learn about his power when it awoke?

Did he exclusively use Palaces, or did he find out what Mementos was? If so, how?

What did he do about his situation- with the Metaverse that is- before approaching Shido?

How did he seal the deal with Shido? What were Shido’s terms?

Exactly what happened from then, up until Wakaba’s mental shutdown?

When and how did the first ‘running wild/berserk’ incident happen?

Did Wakaba have a Palace? What did Akechi learn from her Shadow (and Palace)?

How did Wakaba’s mental shutdown happen exactly? Was it a direct order, or a mistake by Akechi that Shido capitalised on?

What was Akechi’s reaction to Wakaba’s death?

What brought about the ‘Black Mask’? It’s heavily implied to be connected with Loki, but how?

When and how did Akechi become a detective in the first place, never mind ‘charismatic ace detective’?

What did Akechi learn about cognition over two and a half years?

Besides offering praise, it was obvious Shido threatened Akechi. Exactly how did he keep his distance, and control him as his puppet? How did he abuse him- psychologically? Emotionally?

What effect did this abuse have on Akechi’s cognition and developing Personas? Does it also affect the ‘Black Mask’?

When a bond was secured with Akira, how did Akechi respond?

What was his objective with Yald!Igor? Did he ever see his face, or the Velvet Room?

What does Yald!Igor, Robin Hood and Loki say to Akechi throughout his journey, at key points?

How in the hell does he hide his overall power from Futaba’s Persona?

This list is by no means exhaustive, but I needed it.. clear on paper, so to speak. God, there’s still so much we don’t know.

[jacksmusesp5]

aheartfilledwithlight

replied to your post

“Another thing I’m tired of seeing is that ‘Goro would know how to...”

doesn't he literally say "no one ever would have guessed such an m.o." with a pained look on his face when the p. thieves tell him how it works

He did indeed. Both his sprite and his model’s action show distress, when given an answer to the question he prompted. From how he posed that question at that time, he really wanted to know right there and then. He couldn’t let such a burning question sit.

It’s also interesting to note that he’s had this power for a long time, and he noted having not solved the mystery. Hindsight has even more weight on that moment.

[jacksmusesp5]

Any idea when 'Pancake Mask's disillusionment really started before he became the famous Ace detective we all know him as?

Well, I would say that that is around the time he began using or even had his rampage powers. Given what those symbolise, he was more ‘together’ before Shido got his claws into him, invoking the distortion. 

Plus, the reason he even became ‘Ace Detective’ in the first place is because of those powers. Though.. emphasis on Ace, there, on famous. His fame is engineered by Shido; it doesn’t speak for his intellect and deductive ability.

Although he was always disillusioned with society, his initial power was born for want of helping those in it. Those who were just like him, because he knew well there were plenty.