#christian forgiveness culture

[jessicalprice]

So I've spent a lot of time untangling Christian exegesis of parables and talking about how the way Christians interpret parables almost always ends up being antisemitic.

But aside from how it makes them think about Jews and Judaism and Jewishness, I also want to talk a bit about how it makes them sympathize more with abusers than with victims.

The easy-to-point-to culprit here is the trilogy of parables that culminates in what most Christians know as the Prodigal Son story.

The common interpretation of these parables is that God does (and therefore Christians should) value a repentant sinner over someone who's never sinned.

The problem here isn't the stories themselves--they're pretty enigmatic as far as their actual meanings--but Luke's gloss:

"Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance."

(Mark says, "So it is not the will of your Father in heaven that one of these little ones should be lost," which is very different.

So on its face, in 2023, that's a blatantly dangerous, abuser-supporting belief. What is it like to be a child sexually abused by your youth pastor and to hear that the fact that he hurt you is part of what makes him somehow spiritually "better" than you?

And we can see it play out in the way Kevin M. Young, a popular progressive pastor on Twitter (who describes himself as "post-evangelical" and was the senior pastor at a Quaker congregation) responded to being told one of his tweets was antisemitic, and then jumped in to support a woman who responded by identifying herself as a fan of John Chrysostom (the literal author of "Against the Jews" and the most antisemitic of the Church Fathers, which is saying something).

I'm not going to transcribe the whole thing, because it's not all that important for what I have to say about this, but I am going to call out a few lines:

"The American Christian approach to t'shuvah sees the victim's spirit, character, and speech as equally important to the offenders. I.e. in Christendom, the victim can exceed the sin of the offender simply by their reaction (if it be in sin or acted in a way that is not Spirit led)."

So, to be clear, if someone assaults you, and you don't meekly forgive them in a "Spirit led" way, you're somehow worse than they are.

The uniquely Christian brain rot here is in seeing every sin as an opportunity for forgiveness. After all, if being a repentant sinner gives you a higher spiritual status--if there's more "rejoicing in Heaven" over you--than that of your victim, then you have to sin to get there. It treats other people as props in your salvation journey, not as fellow humans whose suffering matters. (Combine that with the Christian idea that suffering is somehow virtuous in and of itself, and you've got a very toxic recipe. Not only, by abusing others, are you guaranteeing your own value as a repentant sinner, but you're giving your victim the opportunity to ennoble themselves through suffering.)

Of course, a key word here is repentant. Put a pin in that.

These sort of exchanges on Twitter--a Christian being outright genocidal toward Jews, and a supposedly progressive Christian figure jumping in to defend the Christian, with seemingly no ability to comprehend that the Jews in the conversation are human beings who may have their own trauma around violently antisemitic language, with boundless empathy for the Christian abuser and none for the Jewish targets of their abuse--happen frequently and just as frequently leave Jwitter baffled in addition to angry.

Why all this empathy for the abuser and none for the victims?

I think a lot of this comes out of progressive Christian exegesis of parables, which is frequently looking for the radical "twist" to the story.

E.g. in the story of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector, the assumption is that the audience of the time would have empathized with the Pharisee, and thus the twist is to make them empathize with the tax collector. In the story of the Good Samaritan, the assumption is that they would have seen the Samaritan as a threat, and the twist is to make him the hero.

The thinking goes that the audience would have had empathy for certain groups and none for others, so the stories push them to feel that empathy for the latter, and that this was needed to balance the scales, to make sure everyone was receiving love and empathy and care.

Except that this, in modernity, has the effect of simply reversing the roles, not balancing them. The groups that are assumed to be in good social standing get no empathy, even become the implicit villains, and the groups (supposedly, since this is now a Christian-dominant society) traditionally looked down on get all of it.

That might still be a balancing act if the "looked down on" groups were actually marginalized. But in the Christian imagination, that role is filled by sinners in need of Christian grace, not necessarily demographically marginalized groups.

The idea seems to be that the victims are getting sympathy from elsewhere, so it's the Christian's job to make sure the abuser/sinner gets sympathy too.

But I'll point again to that pesky word "repentant."

Ultimately, when it comes to treatment of Jews and Muslims and anyone else who points out that a Christian has in some way harmed them, Christian sympathy goes immediately to the offender before the offender has even expressed any repentance.

The repentant sinner is so much more valuable, at this point, than their victims that they must be preemptively forgiven, that they are more valuable purely because they now have the potential to repent.

And this seems to be lurking under not just how "progressive" pastors act on Twitter, but in a lot of our cultural narratives around, say, college rapists and their futures, around white people who are publicly called out for racist acts, etc.

[juliamccartney]

ok i know i have many non-austrian followers and i want to talk about this briefly — there was an antisemitic attack on the Jewish area of the Central Cemetery in Vienna (setting fire and swastika graffiti) and while these acts would be gruesome *anywhere* i think that regarding the history of jewish communities in austria it's especially horrendous that it happened here. and i feel like not enough people are aware of how bad things are in general

[skrunksthatwunk]

actually i'm still thinking about the moral orel finale.

he has a cross on his wall. do you know how much i think about that bc it's a lot.

a lot of stories ((auto)biographical or fictional) centering escape from abusive/fundamentalist christianity result in the lead characters leaving behind christianity entirely. and that makes complete sense! people often grow disillusioned with the associated systems and beliefs, and when it was something used to hurt them or something so inseparable from their abuse that they can't engage with it without hurting, it makes total sense that they would disengage entirely. and sometimes they just figure out that they don't really believe in god/a christian god/etc. a healthy deconstruction process can sometimes look like becoming an atheist or converting to another religion. it's all case by case. (note: i'm sure this happens with other religions as well, i'm just most familiar with christian versions of this phenomenon).

but in orel's case, his faith was one of the few things that actually brought him comfort and joy. he loved god, y'know? genuinely. and he felt loved by god and supported by him when he had no one else. and the abuses he faced were in how the people in his life twisted religion to control others, to run away from themselves, to shield them from others, etc. and often, orel's conflicts with how they acted out christianity come as a direct result of his purer understanding of god/jesus/whatever ("aren't we supposed to be like this/do that?" met with an adult's excuse for their own behavior or the fastest way they could think of to get orel to leave them alone (i.e. orel saying i thought we weren't supposed to lie? and clay saying uhhh it doesn't count if you're lying to yourself)). the little guy played catch with god instead of his dad, like.. his faith was real, and his love was real. and i think it's a good choice to have orel maintain something that was so important to him and such a grounding, comforting force in the midst of. All That Stuff Moralton Was Up To/Put Him Through. being all about jesus was not the problem, in orel's case.

and i know i'm mostly assuming that orel ended up in a healthier, less rigid version of christianity, but i feel like that's something that was hinted at a lot through the series, that that's the direction he'd go. when he meditates during the prayer bee and accepts stephanie's different way to communicate, incorporating elements of buddhism into his faith; when he has his I AM A CHURCH breakdown (removing himself from the institution and realizing he can be like,, the center of his own faith? taking a more individualistic approach? but Truly Going Through It at the same time), his acceptance (...sometimes) of those who are different from him and condemned by the adults of moralton (stephanie (lesbian icon stephanie my beloved), christina (who's like. just a slightly different form of fundie protestant from him), dr chosenberg (the jewish doctor from otherton in holy visage)). his track record on this isn't perfect, but it gets better as orel starts maturing and picking up on what an absolute shitfest moralton is. it's all ways of questioning the things he's been taught, and it makes sense that it would lead to a bigger questioning as he puts those pieces together more. anyway i think part of his growth is weeding out all the lost commandments of his upbringing and focusing on what faith means to him, and what he thinks it should mean. how he wants to see the world and how he wants to treat people and what he thinks is okay and right, and looking to religion for guidance in that, not as like. a way to justify hurting those he's afraid or resentful of, as his role models did.

he's coming to his own conclusions rather than obediently, unquestioningly taking in what others say. but he's still listening to pick out the parts that make sense to him. (edit/note: and it's his compassion and his faith that are the primary motivations for this questioning and revisal process, both of individual cases and, eventually, the final boss that is christianity.) it makes perfect sense as the conclusion to his character arc and it fits the overall approach of the show far better. it's good is what i'm saying.

and i think it's important to show that kind of ending, because that's a pretty common and equally valid result of deconstruction. and i think it cements the show's treatment of christianity as something that's often (and maybe even easily) exploited, but not something inherently bad. something that can be very positive, even. guys he even has a dog he's not afraid of loving anymore. he's not afraid of loving anyone more than jesus and i don't think it's because he loves this dog less than bartholomew (though he was probably far more desperate for healthy affection and companionship when he was younger). i think it's because he figures god would want him to love that dog. he's choosing to believe that god would want him to love and to be happy and to be kind. he's not afraid of loving in the wrong way do you know how cool that is he's taking back control he's taking back something he loves from his abusers im so normal

[apenitentialprayer]

And do our communities take care of those who fall, so they can get back up and start a new life? Do they point the finger, or open their arms? What do you do? Do you point the finger, or open your arms?

Pope Francis, in his 10/9/23 Angelus Sermon

[ereh-emanresu-tresni]

.

[blusical]

anyways this is a harrison butker hate blog /hsrs

[boreal-sea]

I've been thinking about the idea of "forgiveness" vs the idea of just... growing and moving on.

Personally, I don't think you have to forgive people to move on. I don't think you have to forgive them to work with them, to like them, to respect them.

It's funny - apparently the dictionary definition of "forgive" is just "to let go of feelings of resentment or anger".

But I was raised Christian so "forgiveness" has always carried way more baggage with it than "stop being angry". It was this Godly act of absolving someone of their crimes against you, of no longer being angry yes, but on top of that, no longer blaming them for the incident and basically forgetting it ever happened? A completely blank slate basically; the "forgiven act" should never, ever be brought up, it's as if it never happened.

And I think that may be why a lot of people are like "Yeah no fuck forgiveness". Because for those of us who were raised Christian or who are culturally Christian, "forgiveness" is like... a huge burden on the hurt person. It's supposed to make you feel better to "move on" but often it can feel like... the person who wrong you gets off scot-free, and you have to pretend they never hurt you.

And going by the dictionary definition... there are people I will never forgive. I am still hurt and will always be hurt by things they did to me. But I still love them anyway; I've repaired our relationship and re-bonded with them and love them more than ever.

[chase-omega]

We are the worst generation.

Nobody forgives each other anymore. Make one mistake and you're demonized for life. Bridges instantly burned forever. Everyone will always hate you forever now. And it could be something small, too. Or something from like 13 years ago you posted. Or a joke (cuz, you know, nobody can take a joke anymore either). And it's caused our entire generation to become super introverted. We never talk to each other anymore because, again, make one tiny little mistake and your life is instantly ruined.

Can't make a mistake if you just never say or do anything, right?

Hell, people will suddenly hate you and call you the bad guy just for not wanting to deal with their shit.

The fuck happened? What happened to Matthew 18: 21-22?

[heavenaintaniceplace]

“oh sorry you can’t just Apologize for being culturally christian because thats also culturally christian💖our standards are different💖you have to do work for the rest of your life to make up for any harm have or havent done because our standards are different and even though you dont adhere to them and arent a part of any group that adheres to them and arent obligated to💖we expect you to agree and do this or youre a bad person💖you are inherently guilty and need to make up for it 💖i dont care if you were a brainwashed 8 year old in a high demand cult and you were a victim you need to repent💖for the rest of your life💖“

[hyenaswine]

it's like white privilege. you don't opt out of it. it's a way of discussing systems of power, it's not a personal attack. does cultural christianity also make you stupid or something?

[daddario]

rewatching early seasons supernatural I have so much to say about how much it is not actually the Christianity show that everyone makes it out to be in terms of the questions and messages and underlying world view and I have like 5000 rambling posts in my drafts about it from a jewish perspective that I will likely never publish

[mindfulldsliving]

Challenging Lilith Helstrom's Bigotry: A Defense of Christianity

First, let's get something straight: Christianity is fundamentally about love and acceptance. Yes, like any institution, it's had its missteps but painting it with a broad brush of intolerance ignores the core tenets of the faith.

Introduction In her article, Lilith Helstrom argues that Christianity masquerades as a faith centered on love, while in reality, it’s about bigotry and intolerance. I aim to offer a detailed response to her claims, challenging her perspective. First, let’s get something straight: Christianity is fundamentally about love and acceptance. Yes, like any institution, it’s had its missteps but…

[kmac4him1st]

Noisy-Noisy

Noisy-Noisy cultural chaos is causing so many confused, stressed souls. We need God's peace.

Cultural Noise Why so much noisy, chaotic bickering in our family, schools, churches, community, states, nations??? Hmmmmm think about it… Have you ever lived in such a time where so many people have such a short temper? Noisy-Noisy backbiting people. Stop the noise. How? It begins getting back to our roots… remember this: By the seventh day, God had completed creating his masterpiece, so on…

[heatheniousmaterials]

If you believe you are a fundamentally bad person, it becomes so so easy to do more bad things. If you're already irredeemable, what does it matter that you hurt someone else again? You won't get any more irredeemable. One sin alone is enough to send you to hell, so who cares if you commit a thousand more?

Despite their talk of forgiveness, this is the christian way -- believing all things are equally bad & nobody deserves redemption. Their goal with this is to sell you their own brand of redemption at a premium, by telling you it's impossible to get anywhere else. But cultural christians have kept sin, have kept hell, & only removed jesus, so that every crime is unforgivable, everyone is damned, & there can be no self-improvement.

If you think you can't get better, there's no reason to try. And that's extremely comforting. It means you can just accept you're evil & you don't have to put in any effort.

Have you ever talked to an abusive parent -- or even just a parent that has made mistakes -- about something they did, & seen them end the discussion by just throwing up their hands & saying "well I guess I'm just a terrible parent then"? This is why. Sure, it's to prompt sympathy & some other stuff, but it's also a very easy thought-stopping cliché to avoid thinking about the harm you've done. If you're just fundamentally evil then it doesn't matter.

While I am less familiar with the mechanics of white guilt, this is, as far as I can tell, also how that works. If someone tries to tell you about a problem -- especially if they want you to do something about it -- you can just say "yeah, I know, I'm white, I'm terrible" & then you don't have to listen. Just accept you're the problem & you don't have to listen to the difficult solution.

I don't know how I feel about forgiveness in general. But self-forgiveness is clearly necessary (though not sufficient) for improvement & is far more difficult than wallowing in your sins.

Because, counterintuitively, it is acceptance of your own evil -- not forgiveness of it -- which requires no examination & which allows you to keep hurting people.

the thing is, if your younger self was a bigot or an abuser, u can't make people forgive you. but you still gotta forgive yourself, like that's non-negotiable, dude. that happens before u can even ask the question of earning forgiveness from anyone lese

[shamballalin]

The Top Ten Reasons Beer Is Better Than Religion

The following is an important message on CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALISM by James Talarico, seminary student: Our pastor, Dr. Jim Rigby, is on his writing leave but I don’t know how much writing is getting done. I sent him a text asking for some inspiration for this sermon, and he gave me this. It’s “The Top Reasons Beer is Better than Religion.” Number One: when you have beer, you don’t know on…

[bee-the-whovian]

"Read the room. The room with you and Jesus in it."