#central American spider monkey

[critter-catcher]

My girlfriend went on a trip recently and sent over some cool fellas she found and I wanted to share!

A white nosed coati, a central American spider monkey, and a few pond sliders!

[primate-tournament]

🦍The primate tournament list of candidates has been finalised! Polls will start going up soon!🦧

Thank you to everyone who submitted a species! Here is the full written list:

Basal primates (non-simian primates, including Strepsirrhini and Tarsiiformes)

†Notharctus (Notharctus tenebrosus)

Calabar angwantibo (Arctocebus calabarensis)

West African potto (Perodicticus potto)

Red slender loris (Loris tardigradus)

Bengal slow loris (Nycticebus bengalensis)

Pygmy slow loris (Xanthonycticebus pygmaeus)

Senegal bushbaby (Galago senegalensis)

Brown greater galago (Otolemur crassicaudatus)

Ring-tailed lemur (Lemur catta)

Verreaux’s sifaka (Propithecus verreauxi)

†Archaeoindris (Archaeoindris fontoynontii)

†Megaladapis (Megaladapis madagascariensis)

Madame berthe’s mouse lemur (Microcebus berthae)

Aye-aye (Daubentonia madagascariensis)

Philippine tarsier (Carlito syrichta)

Pygmy tarsier (Tarsius pumilus)

New world monkeys (Platyrrhini)

Wied’s marmoset (Callithrix kuhlii)

Goeldi’s marmoset (Callimico goeldii)

Bearded emperor tamarin (Saguinus imperator subgrisescens)

Golden-headed lion tamarin (Leontopithecus chrysomelas)

Panamanian white-faced capuchin (Cebus imitator)

Central American squirrel monkey (Saimiri oerstedii)

Gray-bellied night monkey (Aotus lemurinus)

Bald uakari (Cacajao calvus)

Madidi titi monkey (Plecturocebus aureipalatii)

Atlantic titi monkey (Callicebus personatus)

Black bearded saki (Chiropotes satanas)

White-faced saki (Pithecia pithecia)

Colombian red howler (Alouatta seniculus)

Brown spider monkey (Ateles hybridus)

Northern muriqui (Brachyteles hypoxanthus)

Yellow-tailed woolly monkey (Lagothrix flavicauda)

Old world monkeys (Cercopithecidae)

Mantled guereza (Colobus guereza)

Zanzibar red colobus (Piliocolobus kirkii)

Nepal gray langur (Semnopithecus schistaceus)

Silvery lutung (Trachypithecus cristatux)

Golden snub-nosed monkey (Rhinopithecus roxellana)

Proboscis monkey (Nasalis larvatus)

Red-shanked douc (Pygathrix nemaeus)

Collared mangabey (Cercocebus torquatus)

Japanese macaque (Macaca fuscata)

Rhesus macaque (Macaca mulatta)

Hamadryas baboon (Papio hamadryas)

Mandrill (Mandrillus sphinx)

Gelada (Theropithecus gelada)

Common patas monkey (Erythrocebus patas)

Bale mountains vervet (Chlorocebus djamdjamensis)

De brazza’s monkey (Cercopithecus neglectus)

Apes (Hominoidea)

Lar gibbon (Hylobates lar)

Pileated gibbon (Hylobates pileatus)

Kloss’s gibbon (Hylobates klossii)

Northern white-cheeked gibbon (Nomascus leucogenys)

Siamang (symphalangus syndactylus)

†Junzi (Junzi imperialis)

Bornean orangutan (Pongo pygmaeus)

†Gigantopithecus (Gigantopithecus blacki)

†Dryopithecus (Dryopithecus fontani)

Western lowland gorilla (Gorilla gorilla gorilla)

Chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes)

Bonobo (Pan paniscus)

†Australopithecus (Australopithecus afarensis)

†Panranthropus (Panranthropus boisei)

†Flores hobbit (Homo floresiensis)

†Neanderthal (Homo neanderthalensis)

The first set of polls will go up as soon as I have finished writing the descriptions! In the meantime, I would appreciate if you could share this tournament around- it won’t be much of a tournament if there aren’t that many people voting! In going down the research rabbit hole I’ve found so many interesting species and stories, and I promise learning about them here will be worth your time!

[northameicanblog]

Costa Rica: Costa Rica is a rugged, rainforested Central American country with coastlines on the Caribbean and Pacific. Though its capital, San Jose, is home to cultural institutions like the Pre-Columbian Gold Museum, Costa Rica is known for its beaches, volcanoes, and biodiversity. Roughly a quarter of its area is made up of protected jungle, teeming with wildlife including spider monkeys and quetzal birds.

Manzanillo, Limón, Costa Rica

[postcards-and-postcrossing]

Costa Rica

Costa Rica is a rugged, rain-forested Central American country with coastlines on the Caribbean and Pacific. Roughly a quarter of its area is made up of protected jungle, teeming with wildlife including spider monkeys and quetzal birds. Thursday Take Me To…

[ainews]

A towering mountain in Nicaragua has been declared a national park, giving the region a much-needed boost in conservation efforts.

The Cerro Muerto volcano, located in the central part of the country, was declared a national park this week by the Nicaraguan government. The 7,408-foot mountain is the highest point in the country and is located in a remote and rugged region characterized by its natural beauty.

The Cerro Muerto volcano is part of the Cordillera Los Maribios mountain range, and is home to many species of threatened plants and animals, such as the Central American spider monkey, the jaguarundi, and the endangered quetzal bird.

The Nicaraguan government, along with several conservation groups, have been working to protect the mountain and the surrounding area for years. The park declaration is the culmination of this effort, and includes the protection of over 60,000 acres of land.

The park will have a huge impact on the local economy, as it is expected to draw thousands of tourists each year, creating jobs and generating income. It will also help protect the biological diversity of the region, as well as provide an important habitat for some of Nicaragua’s rarest species.

The Cerro Muerto volcano is an important symbol of Nicaragua’s commitment to conservation, and its protection will help ensure that future generations can continue to enjoy the country’s unique and beautiful natural environment.

[nature-nerd-sarah]

I'm starting with the second of the three zones in the small animal park: The tropical zone! A large group of spider monkeys are the first animals to arrive here, and they'll live on an island in the middle of the zone.

[northameicanblog]

Costa Rica: Costa Rica is a rugged, rainforested Central American country with coastlines on the Caribbean and Pacific. Though its capital, San Jose, is home to cultural institutions like the Pre-Columbian Gold Museum, Costa Rica is known for its beaches, volcanoes, and biodiversity. Roughly a quarter of its area is made up of protected jungle, teeming with wildlife including spider monkeys and quetzal birds.

Costa Rica via

[lionofchaeronea]

Mayan cylinder vase (earthenware with brown-black slip) depicting spider monkeys.  Artist unknown; ca. 650-750 CE.  From the central Peten lowlands, Belize or Guatemala; now in the Gardiner Museum, Toronto.

[kemetic-dreams]

Br'er Rabbit /ˈbrɛər/ (Brother Rabbit), also spelled Bre'r Rabbit or Brer Rabbit, is a central figure in an oral tradition passed down by African-Americans of the Southern United States. He is a trickster who succeeds by his wits rather than by brawn, provoking authority figures and bending social mores as he sees fit. Popularly known adaptions are by Joel Chandler Harris in the 19th century, and later The Walt Disney Company adapted it for its 1946 animated motion picture Song of the South.

                                   African origins

The Br'er Rabbit stories can be traced back to trickster figures in Africa, particularly the hare that figures prominently in the storytelling traditions in West, Central, and Southern Africa. These tales continue to be part of the traditional folklore of numerous peoples throughout those regions. In the Akan traditions of West Africa, the trickster is usually the spider Anansi, though the plots in his tales are often identical with those of stories of Br'er Rabbit. However, Anansi does encounter a tricky rabbit called "Adanko" (Asante-Twi to mean "Hare") in some stories. The Jamaican character with the same name "Brer Rabbit", is an adaptation of the Ananse stories of the Akan people.

The African savanna hare found all over sub-Saharan African the original Br'er Rabbit.

Some scholars have suggested that in his American incarnation, Br'er Rabbit represented the enslaved Africans who used their wits to overcome adversity and to exact revenge on their adversaries, the white slave owners.Though not always successful, the efforts of Br'er Rabbit made him a folk hero. However, the trickster is a multidimensional character. While he can be a hero, his amoral nature and his lack of any positive restraint can make him into a villain as well.

For both Africans and African-Americans, the animal trickster represents an extreme form of behavior that people may be forced to adopt in extreme circumstances in order to survive. The trickster is not to be admired in every situation. He is an example of what to do, but also an example of what not to do. The trickster's behavior can be summed up in the common African proverb: "It's trouble that makes the monkey chew on hot peppers." In other words, sometimes people must use extreme measures in extreme circumstances. Several elements in the Brer Rabbit Tar Baby story (e.g., rabbit needing to be taught a lesson, punching and head butting the rabbit, the stuck rabbit being swung around and around) are reminiscent of those found in a Zimbabwe-Botswana folktale.

Folklorists in the late 19th century first documented evidence that the American versions of the stories originated among enslaved West Africans based on connections between Br'er Rabbit and Leuk, a rabbit trickster in Senegalese folklore.

The stories of Br'er Rabbit were written down by Robert Roosevelt, an uncle of US President Theodore Roosevelt. Theodore Roosevelt wrote in his autobiography about his aunt from the State of Georgia, that "She knew all the 'Br'er Rabbit' stories, and I was brought up on them. One of my uncles, Robert Roosevelt, was much struck with them, and took them down from her dictation, publishing them in Harper's, where they fell flat. This was a good many years before a genius arose who, in 'Uncle Remus', made the stories immortal."

These stories were popularized for the mainstream audience in the late 19th century by Joel Chandler Harris (1845–1908), who wrote down and published many such stories that had been passed down by oral tradition. Harris also attributed the birth name Riley to Br'er Rabbit. Harris heard these tales in Georgia. Very similar versions of the same stories were recorded independently at the same time by the folklorist Alcée Fortier in southern Louisiana, where the Rabbit character was known as Compair Lapin in Creole. Enid Blyton, the English writer of children's fiction, retold the stories for children.

[deco-devolution]

What do you think would have lived in the Rapture zoo?

Rapture Zoo Headcanons

Probably in the same part of the city as Fort Frolic, though not built within the same mall/theater complex as the rest of the facilities. Rather it has its own structure nearby, and would have been connected to the Fort via a long glass walkway that opened onto the lower atrium.

In terms of species, there are no "local" land animals, so creatures would be chosen (typically in pairs) by a combination of accessibility, perceived exoticness, & size requirements. (While single animals would be cheaper and easier to maintain, couples bring in more guests.) Many are unfortunately acquired through the black market or flat-out smuggled from their place of origin.

As far as who is calling the Rapture Zoo home, I did my research and tried to create a menagerie fitting of Rapture's climate! Here are my proposals, explained (with pictures!) I also have a layout in mind if anyone is curious. But that's for another day!

The Main Exhibits

1. East African Lion (Panthera leo melanochaita)

Amount: Two (mated pair; acquired from defunct surface zoo)

Why: Although one of the rarer species of lion found worldwide, the East African Lion breed is one of the smallest species of lion in the known world, making the space and material required to house and feed them lesser than the needs of its larger relatives. The draw of a real live lion would be invaluable to public interest and ticket sales, so the smaller subspecies would be better for both investors and suppliers alike.

2. American Black Bear (Ursus americanus)

Amount: One (bought from UK circus)

Why: An imposing and visually striking figure, the black bear was chosen as a familiar yet fascinating creature to draw in crowds. Also, they help drive up teddy bear sales something fierce.

3. Arabian Leopard (Panthera pardus nimr)

Amount: One (bought in a black market trade)

Why: Easily one of the most endangered subspecies of leopard known today, the Arabian leopard is also the smallest of the its kind. One of the most expensive subjects purchased for the Rapture Zoo, it was brought as an alternative to satisfy the distinct lack of tigers in the zoo, as the majority of tiger subspecies would be much larger and unwieldy to transport, feed and house.

4. Mexican Grey Wolf (Canis lupus baileyi)

Amount: Four (bonded pack; acquired from defunct surface zoo)

Why: Once again chosen for their combination of smaller size and potential crowd pull, this small pack is notable for requiring much less food and housing than other wolf species, while still being the genuine package.

5. Roe Deer (Capreolus capreolus)

Amount: Five (bonded herd; poached from Norwegian woodlands)

Why: Visually appealing while still being a smaller and thankfully incredibly populous subspecies of deer, the roe deer were also chosen for their less-intensive dietary needs and charming counterpoint to the drama of the carnivores in the zoo.

6. Central American Squirrel Monkey (Saimiri oerstedii)

Amount: Seven (Intergrated barrel; acquired from two seperate surface zoos)

Why: Small, amusing and intelligent, this subspecies of spider monkey was chosen not only for its reduced size and charming appearance, but also for its populous numbers that make the specimens easily replaceable.

The Aviary

With two of both subspecies of macaw and four of other listed species, the population of Rapture's aviary was chosen on a basis of loose compatibility and vibrant feather coloration.

7. Blue & Yellow Macaws (Ara ararauna)

8. Scarlet Macaws (Ara macao)

9. Sun Conures (Aratinga solstitialis)

10. Common Parakeets (Melopsittacus undulatus)

The Reptile Room

With a troop of seven frogs, two of each lizard and one python, the reptiles of Rapture Zoo are chosen for their bright pigmentation and exotic appearance without being too deadly or complicated to care for.

11. Red-Eyed Tree Frogs (Agalychnis callidryas)

12. (Albino) Ball Python (Python regius)

13. Carpet Chameleons (Furcifer lateralis)

14. Leopard Gecko (Eublepharis macularius)

The Petting Zoo

A miniature farm complete with a tiny barn and scarecrow, the Rapture Petting Zoo has one cow, four pigs, and one rooster with two hens. As it's a special, more interactive part of the zoo, patrons must pay a second fee, usually 50% of the standard ticket, to interact with the animals. All the species were chosen for their smaller size and/or docility.

15. Dexter Cow (Bos taurus taurus)

16. Kunekune Pigs (Sus scrofa domesticus)

17. Cornish Game Chickens (Gallus gallus domesticus)

I also think the managers and owners had a plan to trade out/sell off animals to keep interest high, but the city fell before a plan could have been made.

[northameicanblog]

Costa Rica: Costa Rica is a rugged, rainforested Central American country with coastlines on the Caribbean and Pacific. Though its capital, San Jose, is home to cultural institutions like the Pre-Columbian Gold Museum, Costa Rica is known for its beaches, volcanoes, and biodiversity. Roughly a quarter of its area is made up of protected jungle, teeming with wildlife including spider monkeys and quetzal birds.

The jaguarundi is a relatively secretive species of medium-sized cat, native to the Americas. In many ways it resembles a large mustelid, but its closest relative is the cougar. It lives alone or occasionally in pairs in a large home range, and more often hunts in the day than other sympatric cats like ocelots. ©SilverSpot Productions

[aventurasdeunatortuga]

Guatemala Days 7-11

Lake Atitlan

The last 4 days have been spent at Lake Atitlan in the town of Panajachel. On Saturday Emily arrived to Antigua and to our surprise we got upgraded to a deluxe suite which was very fancy.

The next morning we took a shuttle to Panajachel, one of at least 11 towns on the shore of Lake Atitlan. Lake Atitlan is an enormous lake formed from a volcanic crater that is thousands of meters deep. There are at least 3 separate languages spoken by the indigenous people in the surrounding area, that’s how big around the lake is.

On Monday we explored the Atitlan Nature Reserve which was really cool. We hiked to the lakeshore, went across suspension bridges through the jungle, and saw spider monkeys and coatís (a central american variety of raccoons which only live in high altitude jungles).

On Tuesday we did a tour of three different towns along the lake. We got to the different towns by boat. First we went to San Juan La Laguna which had a lot of fair trade textile co-ops. This has helped combat a lot of social problems such as poverty and lack of education access, and has helped elevate indigenous women of the area. Several families team together to weave and form the co-op and whatever the co-op sells the profits are divided equally amongst themselves. A requirement for entering the co-op is enrolling children in school. We visited one of these co-ops and learned more about the weaving process which is incredibly complex. It take between 3 weeks to 3 months to weave a single garment. Unfortunately a lot of factory made copycat products are sold on the street for less than a 10th of what it costs to produce handmade products.

After San Juan La Laguna we stopped in San Pedro La Laguna for a drink. This town has a lot of expats and unfortunately has lost a lot of its ties to their indigenous culture. It’s now known as a party town (San Pedro La Locura is the nickname).

Finally we went to Santiago Atitlan, the largest of the lakeside towns. Even though it was only 15 minutes away by boat from San Pedro they spoke a completely different Mayan language (there are 22 Mayan languages spoken in Guatemala and most are completely unrelated to each other linguistically).

In Santigao Atitlan we visited some religious sites. They practice synchronism between Catholicism and traditional Mayan practices. We visited a church where both Mayan ceremonies and Catholic Mass are practiced, often at the same time. It was very similar to a church I visited in Chiapas, Mexico in the town of San Juan Chamula which also practiced Mayan-Catholic synchronism.

We also visited the shrine to the local deity Maximón. The deity is believed to inhabit a wooden statue and the shrine location rotates to different homes every year. It is tended to by the family living in the home and a shaman. The statue is over 500 years old.

On Wednesday we got a day pass to a local resort for $20 and we got to use their pool, beach, and got lunch. It was very luxurious. We walked back to our hotel from the resort and barely missed a huge thunderstorm. It started maybe 10 minutes after we got back. The lightning caused a power outage in Panajachel which lasted nearly 30 hours. We had to navigate by flashlight and eventually candlelight once the flashlight died. It was very spooky but also kind of nice to be disconnected from everything.

I’ll post again tomorrow to tell about today’s trip to Chichicastenango. Until then,

[datodinicshit]

Saturday July 11th 2020

Devotee Challenge: Loki

How do you perceive Loki?

For the majority of the past six years I have perceived Loki mainly through emotional feedback and colors and very very rarely in dreams. I've always jived with the lanky redhead aspect that many see in the art that floats around in the Lokean circles. But I have also seen Loki as this aspect that is very much an "on the road" Trickster Face, with a heavily Lord of the Rings' Strider look to Them, but with brown skin, eyes like molten gold, and a broad sturdy build. I met that aspect in astral once and was absolutely delighted to, because it was one of about 5 singular meetings where I could actually see and identify Loki.

It wasn't until this year that I fully grasped why I could barely "hear" or "see" Loki.

I work closely with an aspect of Loki who is nonverbal or mute at times, and visually impaired or blind at times, and sometimes both.

So much of my past dealings with Loki and my perceptions of Loki have been filtered through emotional senses, and with an understanding that "Loki is quiet." Early on, this used to worry me. I would worry that Loki was hurt or exhausted or in need of a safe space to just rest. And so that is what I build a relationship on. I offered everything I wanted from Loki: safety, home, love, protection, laughter, somewhere to belong, family and acceptance.

So. I believe I get Bound Loki the most. Bound Loki or "Older Loki" or "been there, done that, bought the T-shirt, founded the support group and now I need retirement funds, Loki."

That's not the only side of Loki I get, but it's who I consider "home base."

That's how I perceive Loki when He's not a Xe or Them or Fox. Because I also perceived Loki as genderqueer and gender-fluid and non humanoid at times as well. Loki is after all a shape-shifting trickster and don't need no stinking gender or body rules, so put a star next to that or something.

Methods of Communication:

Best for me: tarot, dreams, empathy, synchronized signs, music, trance.

Loki prefers: I'm still working on this with Loki. It's been brought to my attention since discovering Loki is nonverbal / visually impaired at times that They want to work on communication more with me.

Historical: Runes. Universal methods? Prayer in general?

Is Loki often compared to other deities from different pantheons or cultures?

Yes. Loki is a trickster. They're compared and contrasted with or against other tricksters. Even, and this bugs me, with the Christian Devil or Satan. Loki is held up against beings such as other Trickster Spirits like certain Native American tribes' Coyote or Spider. And other pagan gods like: Hermes, Set, Mercury, and Manannán.

And the Chinese historical hero the Monkey King. And the Japanese god Susanoo. Just. You get the picture.

What kind of relationship do you want with Loki?

I want the relationship I've got with Them. One built on love and trust and companionship and the understanding that has blossomed from 6 + years of steady unwavering presence, even in times of silence and pain.

I want what I've got. I want what's good for us both. I want to never ever let Loki go. I want to grow with Them, alongside Them, closer to Them.

That's what I want. At least presently. There's always room for more.

Are we platonic?

We were. For years. We aren't anymore. As of about May/June of this year.

Do I worship them? Yes. Loki is 1/3 of my inner familial circle of gods. And Loki is the central pillar and the foundation of my faith. Loki is the blood of my spirituality and lives in the heart of it. He has an altar, though has always said it wasn't needed. (I buy Loki shit and They haven't minded in the past 6 years, so I see fit to keep it up.) The altar may not be needed but Loki appreciates the care.

How does your relationship affect your everyday life?

Loki keeps me sane. Loki is a constant in my daily life and has been since I came to Them. They're present everywhere I can shove pieces of Them. I wear and make jewelry that reminds me of Loki. I decorate my room with artwork that makes me think of Them. (Odin has also taken over Decor.) The media I love to consume. The blogs I've kept for years. The friends I've made and treasured. Loki is everywhere. And I wouldn't have Them any other way. Loki is integrated and rooted deeply in the garden that is Me. I prefer it that way. Loki is my comfort and safety. Loki is home.

What are Loki's interests outside of canon/lore?

Spongecake. They like it. *snorts* I had to. Sorry not sorry.

Well, I'd like to talk about the Super Soft shit we enjoy together. Loki is a bigger cuddler than I think they get credit for. Like, our naps? Hugs? Sharing blankets and curling up together? Fuck yeah.

Now, you must consider I work/live with a Loki who is A) a source of safety to me and B) hurting and tired a lot. So yeah. *shoves a Loki mug across the table* Fill that shit up with physical affection and positive touch.

*tries to think of shit that's not quite so gooey*

*buffering symbol*

Loki, for all that They're a mover-and-shaker, likes quiet. Loki appreciates sharing space calmly with people. Downtime and relaxing activities are a good. Whether it's bubble baths or watching mindless fluff TV or coloring books or just sitting together. Chilling out is a thing Loki likes and we enjoyed together.

"There's a time for work and a time for play and a time to sit the fuck down and rest." R&R is a Good in whatever form.

Loki also enjoys water. Like swimming, but also, Loki uses water metaphors and imagery with me a lot, even though They're fiery and whatnot. [Insert soundclip of Bruce Lee: "Be like water."]

Recon or No Recon?

No. No Recon. We die like Millennials at a family reunion during mealtime discussions. LOL I do both old and new things with Loki. But we're a free form, free-flowing, do-our-own-thing pair and I like it like that.

Is Loki proud or remorseful about Their lore?

Yes.

Both.

Both is good.

Look, part of being a trickster is teaching lessons in unorthodox and sometimes upsetting ways. But healing comes from the upset. New growth after the seasonal burn. That's Loki.

But Loki is not incapable of remorse. No God is incapable of remorse. But also, I feel the need to mention that while lore and history are very important to learn and acknowledge, the lore is not the be-all end-all. God's learn, adapt, grow and change just as we do.

What does Loki expect from the relationship?

We had a discussion. I got hit in the feels. Basically, we're on the same page. Loki expects me to continue growing with Them and expects to remain my safe harbor. The one I love in this deep-rooted way.

[tropic-havens]

Geoffroys spider monkey - Ateles geoffroi also black-handed spider monkey or the Central American spider monkey, a type of New World monkey from Central America, Nicaragua.

Departamento Rivas, Nicaragua

[northameicanblog]

Costa Rica: Costa Rica is a rugged, rainforested Central American country with coastlines on the Caribbean and Pacific. Though its capital, San Jose, is home to cultural institutions like the Pre-Columbian Gold Museum, Costa Rica is known for its beaches, volcanoes, and biodiversity. Roughly a quarter of its area is made up of protected jungle, teeming with wildlife including spider monkeys and quetzal birds.

“Untitled” by | Chris Henry

Rio Celeste, Tenorio Volcano National Park, Costa Rica

[majingojira]

Jurassic Park - Expanded With Modern Knowledge

I’ve posted a few times now on how to redo Jurassic Park/Jurassic World in terms of Fauna Diversity and other factors.  So you can say with this post I’m “Back on my Bullshit.” 

Let’s dive right in, shall we?  We’ll see some repeats, but others not so much. We’ll go about it via different exhibits: The Primary Tour, The Aviary, the Aquarium, The “Fossil Zoo”, The Feeder Animals, and the WIlds. 

 The Wilds

There are indeed wild animals in Jurassic Park.  In the book, part of the whole thing as the re-creation of an extinct ecosystem.  The island Isla Nublar is based on, Cocos Island, is extremely isolated and secluded.  Outside of feral animals ( pigs, deer, goats, cats, and rats), there is very little land life.  Arthropods (Primarily ants, butterflies, millipedes, centipedes, spiders, and isopods) and 2 species of lizards - an Anole and a Gecko.  That’s about it.  Other sources say there are other reptiles on the island, but I have yet to find any details beyond that. 

Though there are a LOT of birds.  90 species, mostly seabirds using it or the offshore rocks as breeding sites.  Endemic birds include a Cuckoo (The Cocos Cuckoo, which is a glorious name a had to share), a finch, and a flycatcher.  Most other birds are found elsewhere inland or offshore. 

The books add 4 animals to the wilds: frogs, leeches, large tarantulas, and opossum. It acknowledges feral rats, but little else.  I’d include them, easily.  Several varieties of Opossum, because they are an archetypical “Ancient” mammal.  The Common and Virginia Opossum, the Water Opossum, and 2 types of Mouse Opossum are all native to Costa Rica and could easily island-hop to Nublar beforehand, or be introduced for a “Night Safari” element. 

Me?  There are 3 birds I’d bring focus to. The Bronzed Cowbird, the Cattle Tyrant, and Yellow-Headed Caracara. All of them follow large animals (or at least, things Capybara sized or bigger) and eat insects disturbed by the larger animals, or that try to feed on the larger animals.  All are native to Costa Rica and its surroundings, so with the influx of large herbivores, they are bound to come over.  Further, smaller herons and egrets would also take advantage of the larger animal movement disturbing prey.  

South America also has its own dung beetles, and I bet a few of them could be called over to all the free food.  Most deal with monkey poo, but I doubt they’d ignore the bounties available.  InGen may bring in their own to handle the elephant-sized spore, but there will be dung beetles. Lots of them. 

Other Costa Rican fauna I’d include as background elements (that could feasibly be on Isla Nublar AND fit the prehistoric aesthetic) include shrews, Central American Agouti, Northern Tamandua,  Nine-Banded Armadillo, Brown-Throated Three-Toed Sloth, Hoffmann’s Two-Toed Sloth, and Central American Dwarf Squirrel.  

But we also know that InGen released animals into the park that were ‘prehistoric’ to make the whole area support the dinosaurs in some way.  This included a (grossly misplaced and oversized) dragonfly/griffinfly. 

So, in a more realistic version, what would they do release into the wilds of Isla Nublar? 

Tinamous.  As I’ve said before, they can easily be in enclosures with larger animals.  They’ve been in their current form for about 10 million years, and they resemble ancestral ground birds (the kind that survived the KT Boundary) extremely well. 

Capybara.  Docile as hell and gets along with everything, as well as attracting the tick-eating birds mentioned above, these animals can chill with the best of them.  Plus the genus dates back 3.6 million years, with the subfamily going back about twice that far.  They are a bit longer than the largest known Mesozoic mammal (Repenomammus (90cm, 13kg)), growing to 1.3m and 68kg.  

The Feeder/Support Animals

In the novel, there are made mention of fish being stocked that the Tyrannosaurs feed on. The Arapaima is about the only fish for that environment (and easily obtainable) that could fit the bill. They also use goats as feeder animals, and in the movie, they use cattle to feed the raptors. 

In my take, the carnivorous animals would primarily be fed with fish and poultry.  Some smaller ones may warrant mice or rats, but fish would work much better overall.  So, Chicken, Turkey, Arapaima, Fathead Minnows, Tilapia, Poecilia, and so on. Given what we currently know about Tyrannosaurs, 6 Turkey a day would be enough to keep it fed (T. rex may need about  40k calories a day to function, and one turkey can provide about 7k calories).  Or 5 Arapaima (fish provide 82 calories per 100 grams, and arapaima can get up to 200kg, even assuming 100kg, that’s 8,200 calories per fish).  

Goats have about 1 calorie per gram, so a goat weighing 40kg (not out of the ordinary as breeds range from 20 to 140kg, but it would be an overall large goat) would meet the dietary needs of a Tyrannosaur.  I’ve already mentioned the cowbirds, but they are pretty important for overall animal health.  Because I’m sure there are ticks since the deer got on the island. 

The Fossil Zoo

Here are “Living Fossils” and things reverse-engineered from existing animals to be more akin to their prehistoric brethren.  As well as their mammalian De-Extinctions.  Because some would be rather easy. 

Some of the ‘wid’ animals would have an example or two in this more “proper’ zoo environment: Capybara, Agouti, Nine-Banded Armadillo, Tamandua, Sloth, Opossums.  

Other mammals of note in this section would be Treeshrews, an Aardvark, Greater Mouse Deer, Black and Rufous Elephant Shrews, A Tapir, Chacoan Peccary, Solenodon, A Giant Anteater, Platypus, Short-Beaked Echidna, and Long Beaked Echidna.  

The Platypus and Long Beaked Echidna may be modified to be larger (2ft long, and 4ft long) to match fossil ancestors.  

It would also be home to 3 de-extinct Mammals.  Quagga, Thylacine, and Gigantopithecus.  The first is easy, the second could get additional funding, the third... Because it’s Cool. 

But with any de-extinction, there come problems.  This is Jurassic Park after all.

Quagga is easy to tame but can be high strung at times.  It does not react well to the smell of predatory dinosaurs. 

Thylacines ... have a very nasty hunting technique of BITING OFF FACES. They aren’t bloodthirsty or anything, even taking turns to feed in an orderly fashion, but their hunting technique is rather mean. 

Gigantopithecus are 3m tall, 500kgs, and STILL able to climb rather well.  it looks like an Orangutang trying to play Gorilla, but with only minimum sexual dimorphism in terms of size (males are still bigger) and it’s working out very well.  Like orangutans, they are natural cage breakers.  They also have very strong jaws and large canines.  They will bite when angered, and if it wants to, it is strong enough to wreck several people in a charge.    

Capybara, Mouse Deer, Tapir, Peccary, Giant Anteater, and the de-extinct trio would have outdoor enclosures, naturally. 

Most of the reptiles would be in the aquatic section, but there are 4 that would be here. 

Tuatara (Modified for tropical environments), the Aldabra Giant Tortoise (possibly grown to “Testudo atlas”/Megalochelys atlas sizes -- almost 7ft across and weighting 4000kg), Quinkana, and Megalania. 

Why? Because Quinkana is a cool crocodilian land predator, and Komodo Dragons are basically island dwarf versions of Megalania.  Quinkana is 6m long (so it’s Q. fortirostrum rather than any of the other species), and Megalania 7m long.  

Once again, we have the unexpected from the de-extinct animals.  

Megalania has two things that were discovered recently in its descendants.  First, it is venomous.  The venom lowers blood pressure in the victim.  So, combined with its horrible bite, the victim will more readily bleed out. The other factor is they retain the Komodo Dragon’s ability to have virgin births.  So, despite being female, they can generate MALE offspring asexually.  

I think, narratively, it would be more fun for this to be the source of the breeding dinosaurs in Jurassic Park.  

Despite being a crocodile, Quinkana is very active and mobile.  It’s also a decent digger.  So it makes a mess of the initial enclosure.  

There are a few birds in the fossil house, both the subject of De-extinction efforts. The Dodo and Upland Moa.  Both have some accessible DNA, and modifying birds' eggs is not too far fetched given what they've already done. 

The last section of the Fossil House can be called the “Carboniferous Swamp” as it’s a re-creation (as best they can do) of that environment.  Here are many amphibians, some with a proper prehistoric pedigree: Greater Siren, Midwife Toad, New Zealand Primitive Frog, Aquatic Caecilians, and Giant Chinese Salamanders.  The latter of which naturally can be up to 6ft long.  JP scientists ensure that they get big with modifications, and have gotten a few 2m monsters loafing around the “Fossil Zoo.”  Basically, as many “Living Fossils” as they can cram together. 

But the real prize here is the insects.  There are a few ‘standard’ ancient insects, and some velvet worms on display.  But the prize is the 4 ‘recreated’ insects.  InGen’s versions of Pulmonoscorpius, Meganeura, Arthropleura, and Manoblatta.  A 70cm scorpion, a Griffon-fly with a 65cm wingspread that was also 70cm long, a millipede 1m long, a 40cm cockroach, and a 1m Centipede.  

Yes, a 1m Centipede.  Narratively, we WANT things to go south, and well, there’s an episode of Lost Tapes which really has fun with giant Centipedes. 

And once again, the Chaos Effect rears its head. Of course, they are breeding despite their best efforts.  But it’s more than that. 

The Pulmonoscorpius they have is derived from an emperor scorpion.  This means it can burrow better than they expected, and while the venom of the base animal is not dangerous, the dosage in their Pulmonoscorpius makes it so.  Paralyzing adults.  In the weak or young, it can lead to coma and death.  Also, it’s more aggressive than the base species.  

The Griffonfly is the most active among them and can use its wingbeats to breathe more effectively.  It spends most of its time growing as a nymph, and a short portion of its life as a flying adult. To hold it, you need a falconer’s glove. 

The Millipede Arthropleura is armored as heck.  Far more than they expected.  And it gnaws like a rodent. 

The Centipede Arthropleura is a monster. It’s fearless and willing to attack people, with venom enough to greatly harm a person (killing the small and weak).  Multiple bites can be fatal.  They also act as carrion eaters.  

And the roach?  It’s an omnivorous scavenger.  If hungry enough, they will gnaw on people who are sleeping near them.   

The Aquarium (and Other Water-Ways)

There’s a lot of aquatic “Prehistoric” animals to draw on without genetic engineering.  Considered “Fluff” by the park, they nevertheless flesh things out. 

There are native fish in the waterways, mostly killifish.  Ingen brings in (and modifies) Bichir, Paddlefish, Sturgeon, Lungfish (South American and Queensland), Gar (Tropical and Alligator Gar), Coelocanth, Bowfin, Arapaima, and Silver Arowana.  Several of these are prized gamefish, so of course, Jurassic Park has a pond to fish for them. 

The aquarium also includes Amphibians: Greater Siren, Midwife Toads, New Zealong Primitive Frogs, Purple Frog, Hula Painted Frog, and another Giant Salamander. 

Aquatic reptiles are where things get more interesting.  There’s are tanks for sea turtles (Olive Ridley’s Sea Turtle), Pig Nosed Turtles, an Alligator Snapping Turtle, and (of course) American Alligators.  

Now we get to the cloned animals.  First, the aquatic crocodile Metriorhynchus. Also, Titanoboa (They call it Gigantophis, but it’s Titanboa).  Nothosaurus, Ichthyosaurus, Plesiosaurus, and Mosasaurus round out the menagerie.  

So, how do they go wrong? 

Well, half of these animals give live birth, so the standard cloning technique didn’t work until they made an artificial womb. Titanoboa is misidentified and almost fully aquatic.  

Metriorhynchus will ‘nibble’ larger prey.  Bite off chunks of something swimming by, darting in and out.  They may or may not kill people this way, but it will maim and ‘disarm’ them.  

Nothosaurus have very dextrous hands, making the seal-reptiles natural cage breakers. They are also great climbers, so they speculate that the animals lived in rocky environments. 

Ichthyosaurs look like dolphins, but they are not.  More skittish than dangerous. 

They thought Plesiosaurus was able to haul itself onto land, but it is not.  

Mosasaurus... It is a mosasaur.  A second roar of jaws to manipulate prey it captures is pretty badass enough. And it can swallow a person whole with little effort. 

Among the dinosaurs, we have the Great Auk, the Original Penguin.  Another recently extinct bird.  Another bird in the Aquarium is the Common Loon, but by comparison, it is a minor addition.

The Great Auk is an exceedingly brave bird.  It will not run readily, preferring to peck and bite when confronted.  Why it’s so brave is not evident, but it is, and won’t take ‘no’ lying down. 

The jewel of the dinosaurs in the aquarium is the Halszkaraptor-- the diving duck raptor. Because, really, how could I not?  This one is weird enough on its own. 

The Aviary

When I first put this together, I made an effort to keep the Pterosaurs small. I’m going to make some exceptions to that for Jurassic Park fun. 

Modern Birds brought into parts of the aviary (because it has parts) are Tinamous, Seriema, California Condor, Magpie Goose, Mousebirds, Bearded Reedling, Broad-Billed Spaayoa, and Hoatzin.

Cloned birds include the Carolina Parakeet and Passenger Pigeon.  These two have large open enclosures because they require a LOT of animals in their group to be comfortable. So already, there are over a hundred of each of these animals. 

Avian Dinosaurs in the park include Archaeopteryx, Microraptor (which they call Tetraptertyx),, and Ambopteryx.  

Archeopteryx is a glider capable of downward flaps, but no upstrokes.  A generalist with the coloration and overall habits of a solitary crow. 

Microraptor is a better flying and climber than Archeopteryx with its four wings and wider grip, it doesn’t seem to mind people and will use them as perches -- which can be dangerous when their claws go in the wrong place. 

Ambopteryx is the largest winged Scansauropteryx.  An omnivore, this bat-winged beasty is just over a foot long and vomits caustic, foul-smelling stomach contents onto attackers when it is angry.  So, really, it’s a “Dragon.”  

Ceredactylus was the main Pterosaur in the Aviary in the book, and I’ll keep them around too. Complete with territorial nature. 

Other Pterosaurs in the Aviary include Pteranodon, Quetzalcoatlus, Sordes, Anurognathus, and Dimorphodon.  

Unlike the films, this remembers that Pterosaurs use their heads for grasping prey and have no eagle talons. 

Pteranodon is more gregarious, an albatross scaled up.

Quetzalcoatlus is just... well, your basic Giant Azdarhkid pterosaur. It will totally spear a person and eat them. But it spends a lot of the time on the ground, so it keeps the enclosure size small ... for a Giraffe sized animal.  And yes, it will eat people if it can.  

Sordes is an eater of insects and amphibians.  When disturbed, they will swarm around an attacker, pecking and biting to drive them off. This can lead to some unfortunate accidents. 

Anurognathus is basically a pterosaur owl and insect eater.  They have the same unnerving effect as owls.  Their defensive cries and glowing red eyes are terror inducing among humans, easily generating panic. 

Dimorphodon gallops along the ground most of the time, flying only for short distances.  Insects and small animals make up the bulk of their diet.  If it’s small and fast-moving, they will try and take a bite.  That includes fingers.  Or whole hands.  

The Park

Now we come to the dinosaurs.  There are 3 main groups of them in the park: Minifauna, Fauna, and Megafauna. The Difference comes down to weight.  Megafauna is reserved for animals over a ton.  Fauna is for animals above 20kg (or 50lbs). Minifauna is for animals below 20kg on average. 

The park comes with 21 examples of Megafauna, 10 examples of Fauna, and 10 examples of Minifauna.

In the Megafauna, many of them are prone to being ... chaotic. 

Apatosaurs are the second biggest animal in the park by weight (15 tonnes).  Their necks are lined with spines they use for defense and in contests with each other.  They also have a line of raised spines along their backs, which become quite wicked at the tip of their tail.  Lashes with their tail, done to other herd members in dominance points, or against what annoys them, can be very dangerous.  But not as dangerous as when they rear up and try to smash things with their feet or neck. It’s also a low feeder/grazer, vacuuming up food as it moves its head side to side.  

Camarasaurus (C. lentus) are the heaviest animals in the park (20 tonnes), and are mid-range browsers.  They are docile, but their large nasal cavity proves very enticing to Avian Flu, which it acts as a carrier for, but doesn’t really suffer from. 

Spinosaurus is a big land pelican/Waddling Penguin/Crocodile thing. Big claws and jaws are nasty enough on their own with its semi-aquatic nature making it versatile, it still is goofier than it has any right to be.  Which masks its danger. 

Saltosaurus is a sauropod hippo with armored scutes along its back.  That’s pretty darn weird enough.  It’s as heavy as an elephant, and a browser as well, but not to the height of some other animals...

Tyrannosaurus hunts in packs like wolves, so they had to make a group of them as “Sisters” to prevent self-destructive behavior.  So there are 4 “Sisters” that the park knows of.   With all we know about T. rex, there’s not much more to ‘enhance’ it other than letting it be as smart as a modern alligator, or house cat.  Yes, they are comparable.  Eagle-Eyed, nose better than a bloodhound, and with powerful jaws, it is an apex predator for a reason. 

Triceratops has small quills along its torso and back like a porcupine to defend itself in addition to armor plaiting.   They prefer to travel in small groups and fights for dominance can occur if the group gets larger than 5 or 10 individuals.

Deinocheirus is r one of those dinosaurs “This is too weird for the 80s to handle” we now know of.  When riled, its arms are very dangerous weapons. And it will bite, even if only to toss away smaller attackers. Eating fish and plants, this animal has an impressive bluff display, and confidence to back it up. 

Theirizinosaurus is very weird, and worse, has the personality of a goose or swan.  Very confident, will rush down what it thinks are threats, and those claws make it very dangerous. 

Omeisaurus uses its clubbed tail to establish a pecking order (or “smashing order”) in the herd. 

Euhelopus is one of the few true browsing sauropods, really resembling a Giraffe in posture or a small Brachiosaurus/Giraffatita.   Like a Giraffe, it can kick with a LOT of force.  Enough to decapitate a man from brute force alone.  It’s the smallest of the long-neck Brachiosaurus, which is why it was targeted for cloning.  

Ankylosaurus is a goat.  It eats damn near anything.  Primarily eating leaves, it also adores fruit, and will go after large insects when it can.  Or swarms of them it just licks up after breaking open a nest.  They are proficient diggers as well, they like to sleep in burrows they build. It’s also very well camouflaged, so you can trip over it and it will likely take a swipe at you for your mistake. 

Edmontosaurus may be considered a ‘simple’ dinosaur from the bones, but that doesn’t tell the whole story, not by a longshot. See that picture? That’s an Edmontosaur! 

Stegosaurus is an extremely stupid ninja.  It moves quietly for its size, can wiggle and turn its plates red when angry as a distraction, and fold its whole body into a U shape to better strike enemies with its thagomizer.  And it is not afraid of groin shots. 

Styracosaurus is all about intimidation.  When confronted, it will mock charge, holler, stamp, and make a fuss. But if you stand up to it, it will back off, or even run away. 

Amargasaurus uses its neck spines defensively while grazing.  When threatened, they roll their heads under their chests, sticking out their spikes, and charge.  They do this with minimal provocation. They also lash their tails around wickedly.  

Parasaurolophus is LOUD.  Constant maintenance is needed on the paddock as they can rattle apart their paddock locks if they are not checked regularly.  It also gets the attention of certain predators regularly.  Insulation has so far proved ineffective.

Gigantoraptor is pretty damn weird all on its own. An omnivorous oviraptorosaur over 12ft tall at the hip, feathered and fearsome.  It uses its feathery arms (as well as a displaying throat pouch to communicate with members of its species. 

Allosaurus, the lion of the Jurassic.  They behave similarly to crocodiles, but more actively.  Which means they hunt semi-cooperatively.  Because of their primarily slashing jaw setup and strong necks, they prefer to bleed large items to death rather than quickly kill them.  They can still swallow a man whole (as long as they aren’t too big).  

Plateosaurus is a large, primitive planteater.  It walks on its hind legs, despite its size and descendants.  When threatened, it rears up and tries to claw attackers who get to close like an irate Ant Eater.  And those claws are very mean. They rake trees with their claws as a demonstration of power in the herd. 

Borealpelta digs ruts for themselves to sleep in at night.  This means only their armor bits show up.  They usually use the same one when they can, but it still damages enclosures.

Carnotaurus is a Cheetahs.  Extremely long-legged runners at high speed, and at long distance.  They can also swallow a man whole by stretching their jaws out. Also, its tiny arms are used for flappy dance displays. 

Now we come to the Fauna, which are small enough to get inside buildings and still be a visible threat to humans on occasion. 

Ceratosaurus is basically a bipedal crocodile, scutes and all.  The nasal horn is flat and largely for display.  They prefer swampy environments and eating aquatic animals. The thick hides of these animals make darting almost impossible, and mildly resistant to small arms fire. 

Pachycephalosaurus have dynamic skulls, the younger ones being spikier than the adults.  And they will butt EVERYTHING that annoys them even slightly.  Worse still, they are omnivores. They decrease the amount of meat in their diet as they age, but they won’t turn it down. 

Dilophosaurus has the frill and venom of the novel/movies, but the frill is made of feathers rather than skin and is lost in adults, which can be up to 3m/10ft tall.  

“Velociraptor”, or really, Dakotaraptor, is as smart as a crow, which means minor tool use.  Juveniles can fly short distances to escape an attack.  They are less like wolves and more like lions in how they hunt, climbing in trees to assist in their ambushes.  Think of them as ground-eagle-panthers with crow intelligence. 

Protoceratops make burrows to live in.  They sleep for short periods throughout the day and night, at seemingly random intervals.  

Struthiomimus’ fully developed wings are colorful, large, and help it maneuver at speeds up to 50mph (80kph).  They also help it intimidate others -- their claws also packing a bit of a punch. Primarily herbivorous, they are also very vocal animals.  Almost obnoxiously so.  

Dryosaurus is the dinosaur equivalent of a deer or large gazelle, living in small groups in forested areas.  Because of this, and an extremely skittish nature, they are hard to spot in their enclosures.  Sure, they are ON the tour, but the runaway when the cars come by.  It makes care for them difficult as well. 

“Troodon” is really Stenonychosaurus. Omnivorous, the focus on rodents and other small animals. They also feed on more fruit, seeds, nuts, and other high energy plants more regularly than InGen thought.  They are the best cage breakers in the park, being the smartest animals there (yes, smarter than the raptors).  They are also guide-animals.  They will guide larger predators, like tyrannosaurs to food sources they can’t access, but that the other animal can.  Similar to Crows and Wolves.  

“Oviraptor”, really Anzu,  is a large oviraptorid.  Herbivorous with occasional meanderings into carnivory, it’s main gimmick is its voice.  It’s a Lyrebird. It can vocally mimic anything its herd before and incorporate it into display songs. It can also use this to manipulate other dinosaurs, be it attract small animals to eat, bring ‘help’ for itself, or scare away potential threats.  So, imagine a scene.  A group of humans is hunting for other survivors, they hear someone crying “Help! Help!” and occasionally screaming.  They rush to aid and find this tall animal here.  Their guard lowered in confusion as another predator sneaks up behind them and takes them down. 

“Parkosaurus” is actually Oryctodromeus.  A burrower like Protoceratops, they are more communal in their nesting.  It’s rather unsettling to see animals as big as a medium-sized dog pop-up out of the ground like prairie dogs. 

Microfaunae are Coyote or smaller animals that can still be dangerous, but not so often or as directly.  

Coelophysis is the “Emu” of the park. They are inquisitive, but also not very bright.  They are also opportunistic.  Which can be hilarious, but also dangerous, because you are made of meat.  And they see no qualms with biting someone and running away again and again.  In groups. 

Psittacosaurus rattles its tail feathers as a means of simple communication.  They also bite with a lot of force when agitated, enough to take off a hand. 

Dromaeosaurus is a small raptor (or rather, typical, medium-sized one), but one more heavily built to take down prey larger than itself.  This one will hook onto a person and bite away, ripping out chunks.  Given they are about the size of a turkey, several of them can do that to a person.  

Vespersaurus is an opportunistic omnivorous desert dweller that runs along sand primarily, using its single grounded toe to get better traction and movement. Its kick has TWO large raptor-like claws on it, making it extra nasty. 

Limusaurus is another Noasaurid, a strange group of dinosaurs related to Ceratosaurus.  This one changes its diet as it ages.  As hatchlings and juveniles are omnivorous, eating plants, insects, and small animals.  As they become adults, they switch to an entirely herbivorous lifestyle.  This confused the hell out of InGen first time through. 

Nanosaurus (a.k.a. Othnelia/Othneliasaurus) is a tiny ornithopod that fills in the same role as a Thompson’s Gazelle.  Small, grazing, and skittish.  They like being in large herds for protection.  

Panphagia is an omnivorous ancient sauropod relative and the oldest species of dinosaur in Jurassic Park.  A consummate opportunist, its hands make it a pretty decent cage breaker.   And it really will eat anything, almost as much as the Ankylosaurs or goats, but more carnivorous.  

Procompsognathus is a chicken-sized carnivore that eats small animals as well as scavenges for food. It is also venomous, operating in groups to take down injured animals larger than itself.  

Compsognathus, by contrast, is a housecat in terms of personality.  An expert killer of small things, but can easily cozy up to humans.  Considered “Petting Zoo” material, if not for their teeth and claws.  

Shuvuuia is one of those animals that scientists even today don’t really know how it works and is also one of the smallest nonavian dinosaurs.  It uses its claws to break open rotting wood and picks off insects very quickly. Because it eats a lot of poisonous insects and acid-filled ants.  And it converts that into pure stink. Yeah, it’s an anteater-skunk dinosaur.   Final Thoughts I could probably have shaved things down to 10-15 of the movies/books, but I wanted to fill things out not just for variety, but for a proper park.   I’ll probably revisit this for a later post...