#cass is the daughter of batman's mentors

[weirdo-from-bonesborough]

yes death in the family is sad but it's also really funny that they were like "willis is just a down on his luck man trying to provide for his family :'( he just made a few bad choices because of his economic standing but he's not a bad guy D:" but also he's friends with an assassin and a woman who exmeraminted on teenage girls.

like one evil gf i believe he could be in the dark about but two? interesting coincesdence there billyboy

[aingeal98]

Cass and Commissioner Gordon is such an underrated dynamic like you're stuck in a no mans land and one of the kids your daughter is mentoring saves your life from an assassin. You barely see her again for months but there's a new fighter on the scene using your daughter's old moniker who's around the same height and build as this kid, doesn't use a lot of verbal communication just like this kid, and fights with the same alarming skill as this kid. Also your daughter has grown so attached to this kid that even after no mans land ends the kid stays living with her and also she might have named her? Do you have a granddaughter now? Is your granddaughter Batgirl? Should you be concerned that your daughter seems to be having custody arguments with Batman over this girl? What's the procedure here, there's no rulebook you can think of that fits this situation.

[casscainmainly]

if you had a graph with the x axis being from "doesn't view batman as a father" to "views batman as a father" and y axis being from "doesn't view bruce as a father" to "views bruce as a father", where would you put each batkid?

btw, i love your recent metas <3

This is such an interesting ask!! Here's my rendition of it:

I'm going to add a little reasoning because these are contestable!

Dick: I personally don't think Dick separates Bruce from Batman the way some other Batkids do. Even if he did, Dick has been with Bruce so long, is so steeped in both his vigilante and civilian lives, that he's Bruce's son in any identity. Their bond transcends any 'Bruce vs. Batman' division.

Tim: Similarly, I don't think Tim separates Bruce/Batman, especially since he came into his life knowing both identities. The reason he's lower than Dick is because Bruce wasn't his dad originally; I'm a little biased since I'm now reading Batman: Contagion, but the presence of Jack Drake in much of Tim's tenure as Robin prevents Tim from being as strongly attached to 'Bruce/Batman = dad' as Dick.

Cass: Of course Cass separates Bruce and Batman very clearly, as she does with many people, such as herself and Babs as Oracle. For the early part of their relationship she didn't know Bruce, nor did she care; Batman is her father, Bruce is just the guy Batman happens to be sometimes. (I think this is less true recently, but she still thinks of Batman first and Bruce second).

Damian: Struggled with him because he definitely thinks of Bruce as his dad under any name, but I do think it's Batman that matters to him. He is the 'blood son' but it's the Robin mantle that establishes his relationship to Bruce (Robin, Son of Batman, not Damian, son of Bruce). This may have changed recently with the current Batman and Robin run, but for the majority of Damian's time I think it's fair to say he thought of himself as the son of Batman, not Bruce. (He is not anti Bruce though, which is why he's not that low).

Jason: Jason for sure thinks of Bruce as his dad - the entirety of UtRH wouldn't have happened if Jason didn't believe to his core that Bruce loved him as a son. That belief is so strong that Bruce overshadows Batman, in a way. Jason spars with Batman on the moral front, but his conflict is ultimately always with Bruce, which is the name he consistently uses in UtRH. This is the one I'm least sure about though because I've not read lots of Jason's runs.

Stephanie: Like Cass, Stephanie didn't know Bruce at all, so a lot of her relationship to him is Batman-only. She definitely doesn't think of either Bruce or Batman as a father - her desire for Batman's approval has shades of him being a father-figure, but it never goes as far as an actual desire for a father-daughter relationship. The only reason she's higher than Duke is because of the somewhat complicated way he echoes a father (and she, to Bruce, echoes Jason).

Duke: Duke doesn't really care about Bruce, and he cares about Batman only as a mentor. He basically tells Bruce he's only useful as Batman; even then, Duke doesn't have a super deep emotional attachment to Batman. He also loves Doug, who's still alive (though MIA), and wouldn't replace him in any scenario. He explicitly calls Batman a 'mentor' and 'friend'.

These are just my takes, I'm sure there are other interpretations of every single one of these. It's one of those questions that highly depends on your preferred dynamics for the characters, where canon can go either way. Even if this is horribly incorrect, I hope it was interesting! Thanks for the ask <3.

[ultimate-marysue]

Thinking about writing something about RoyJay. I just love the idea of those two accidentally fumbling their way into having one of the healthiest dynamics in DC.

Like, they're both considered such fuck UPS by the cape community at large post drugs/pit madness. I just think they're both such no-bullshit people they would be actually really effective at cutting each other's self destructive/self isolating behavior. And at first they would fight it because "fuck you and your holier than thou shit", but they would eventually realize neither of them is judging the other. That they both come from a place of caring and empathy even if they can't always express it.

Like Roy has a lot of background on the Batfam dynamics from being friends with both Dick and Jason. He understands how it feels to not meet your mentors expectations and to be let down by them in your time of need. He's also a father that has lost his daughter and I think that he can both validate Jason's need for vengeance while also offering some perspective on Batman's self destructive behavior after Jason's death. I think that whole angle is so interesting to explore (even in a Bad Batdad or trying his best but it's not enough Batdad situation). Roy also would let Jason vent about his siblings sure, but once he calms down he'd force Jason to reckon with the fact that these are kids. Dick, Cass and Tim aren't at fault for other people comparing them to Jason, and unfair comparisons go both ways.

On the other hand I think that Jason is probably one of the better equipped people to help Roy through his addiction. Jason has never blamed Catherine for her struggles and understands that if she never managed to get clean it wasn't for a lack of love for him. He would be the most empathetic in that situation, understanding how fucking hard it is to stay clean, but at the same time he would never go easy on Roy because he knows that sometimes you need someone to hold you accountable until you can do it yourself again. Roy would really appreciate having someone that has his daughter's best interest at heart but doesn't judge him as a horrible father for struggling. It can be so hard when everyone else just assumes that you should be able to magically cure something that's affecting your brain chemistry because it's what "good parents should do". I also think Jason would point out the hypocrisy of Roy calling Dick a Martyr while pulling the same shit. Maybe Roy doesn't do it out of guilt and a savior complex but the end results are the same.

Like, I don't ship them just because they're two men standing next to each other being friends. I think that even from a completely platonic standpoint their dynamic must be so interesting because of all of the above. Canon doesn't do enough with all of those tasty parallels because they're cowards. They're in the perfect place to help each other and they have the no-nonsense attitude to keep each other in check. They wouldn't judge each other but neither would they try to fix each other. They'd help each other fix themselves. I'm chewing my arm off.

[kiragecko]

Batfamily Relationship Tournament 2024

VS

Round 1, Match 13: Kate & The Batfamily VS Babs & Cass

Which relationship do you enjoy more?

Kate and the Batkids, their aunt/a cousin of their father who has a lot of pain associated with family and little interest filling those roles. Who was inspired by Batman, but has always been an equal, not a sidekick. Who resists having a sidekick of her own. Who is not part of the family in ways that are interesting and unique.

Or Babs and Cass, who created a mother-daughter relationship that was also a sibling relationship, and a mentor relationship, and a competition with Bruce, and far too many other things. Babs gave Cass so much, and was so bad at listening. They were good, and they were bad, and they were interesting.

See Main Post for more information and the other matches.

[necrotic-nephilim]

Do you have any fucked up babscass headcanons? This is vaguely for the ask game but I’m curious. I’ve also had a vision of dick being drawn into their dubiously consensual mommy kink thing, probably unwillingly. I just love the idea of babs being her teacher for everything normal, like yes on some level it is grooming but cass knows everyone’s intentions automatically, could babs really make her do anything she didn’t want to do?

for the ask game!

GOD YES. i love BabsCass. just. so dearly. they're so fucked up. and adding Dick to the mix is *also* so so fun. the concepts of how consent plays into it all when Cass knows everyone's intentions and feelings (sometimes before they themselves do) but Babs still holding clear power over Cass and how vulnerable Cass is emotionally it's just. good soup i tell you.

so, i think it's fun, if in a way, Babs has always been slightly jealous of Bruce. after becoming Oracle by means out of her control, she works with other heroes sure, but she doesn't have a protege. she watched with Dick and Bruce, how close of a bond Batman and Robin is. how Bruce got to shape and mold Dick into the hero he's become and the reverence Dick has for Bruce. there's such a nuance to that relationship, and Babs wants it for herself. the first person to carry on the Batgirl torch is Helena, something she violently disapproves of. so for her to give Batgirl to Cass, that's significant. it's both a sign of acceptance, and a sign of ownership. it's basically her way of saying to Bruce "this one's mine." and thus, their relationship reflects it. because it's easy to seak out a close bond with Cass, who's never had anyone show her love and affection with no strings. Babs' love is unconditional. and Cass wants to bury herself in it. she knows it's romantic and possibly sexual, but Babs doesn't sexualize Cass the way men do. there's no leering comments or objectification. Babs is kind and respectful, so Cass doesn't mind. she even leans into it. there's something nice in being appreciate for something other than how good of a weapon she makes. and Babs' touch is just. something Cass craves. Babs wants to respect boundaries, but Cass is practically crawling into her lap after certain rough missions, just for the companionship.

i think it's fun if the mommy kink starts with Cass. sure, Babs has been carefully guiding Cass toward being comfortable with sexual things. Cass is regularly naked around Babs with no problem, she lets Babs touch her anywhere. but it's when Babs is holding Cass that Cass talks about how she doesn't know who her mother is and she wishes she knew what having a mother felt like. and sure, Cass knows that Babs isn't entirely motherly. not when her hand is resting inside of Cass' pants at that very moment. but this is the closest thing she has. i enjoy the idea of Cass knowing that this isn't normal. sure, she doesn't fully understand relationships, but she knows mother/daughter and dating are different. but it's a two birds one stone kind of thing. she's so convinced she's not going to find enough people to love her to fill all the "roles" in her life, why not combine the two. after all, Dick and Bruce are doing it. so when Cass brings it up, Babs lets Cass call her mommy. it's a soothing thing, more than a kink thing. and it delightfully plays into Babs' hand for how she wants to groom Cass, giving her more control and trust over Cass. it's easy to get Cass to side with her instead of Bruce when she just has to stroke Cass' hair and praise her whenever she does what Babs want. Cass is so used to negative reinforcement that she'll take any kind of positive reinforcement, even if she knows it's slightly manipulative. sometimes, what matters to her the most is just that someone wants to protect and take care of her in the first place.

i love the idea of Dick getting dragged in unwillingly so much. Cass has very high standards for what a mentor/partner/mother figure should look like because of how reverently Babs treats her. and Cass is known for being critical of Bruce's methods. so when Bruce is particularly cruel to Dick, or that have a nasty argument that Cass witnesses and Bruce possibly even hits Dick, that's when Dick gets dragged in. it starts with Babs inviting him to just eat dinner and chill out with Babs and Cass in the Clocktower. then he's being invited to stay the night more and more often so he doesn't have to crash at Wayne Manor when he's in Gotham. the first time he wakes up with Cass sleeping next to him, he doesn't comment on it. he knows what it's like to be so tired you just crash on the nearest bed. it's when he notices that he's being more and more separated from Bruce, that Dick starts to notice something is off. he's never commented on what's going on between Babs and Cass bc well, he's one to talk. but now he's caught between them. Cass and Babs don't even have to talk, they just wordlessly know they're on the same page about bringing Dick into the fold. for Cass, it's genuinely to protect him. she's happy with Babs, and she wants Dick to feel happy in that way too, with someone who's not as emotionally closed off as Bruce. and Cass just wants as many close relationships as she can get. and for Babs, there is genuine attraction there. she and Dick almost flirted with dating before, and nows her chance to have him and finally beat Bruce. and as unwilling as Dick is, it's hard to say no when they're being so gentle with him. he keeps telling himself he's going to set hard boundaries and tell them no, eventually. but Babs has the manipulation down pat, and Cass is so gentle and loving, Dick just gets swept in too deep. they both know he's unwillingly, but to Cass, that's just how love works. you have to be talked into it sometimes because you don't realize you deserve it.

Babs teaching Cass about sex my *beloved*. first, it's just Cass and Babs. Babs showing Cass how she can feel good, how she can make Babs feel good. but now with Dick, they have a whole new person for Babs to see to teach Cass about sex. Dick has to be talked into it by Babs, who paints it as a learning opportunity for Cass. I just. I love throuple dynamics where one person is basically being used as a toy for the dom to tell the third person to use, and that fits them so well. Dick is just a toy, a prop basically. and Babs is guiding Cass through it, teaching her how to make Dick feel good, how to ride him. I like the idea of Babs edging both of them until she feels like Cass has "learned" enough. which is clearly just part of the kink, corrupting Cass. and they all know it, but it's an unspoken thing. even more fun if Babs gives Cass some token form of control, letting Cass control when Dick can come. and to Cass, edging is a natural part of sex, so she also tortures Dick like that, bringing him to the edge and holding him there no matter how much he begs. sometimes, Dick just watches Cass and Babs have sex and learns what they like through that. he learns Babs is a sadist, but she has to be careful with it. Cass views pain strictly as a very negative punishment and the last thing Babs wants to do is lose the trust she has built up with Cass. so she avoids pain for the longest time. it's Dick who notices Babs itching to hurt someone, so to make sure it's not Cass, Dick offers himself. and Cass watches as Babs hurts Dick, and Dick *likes* it. maybe impact play, maybe some CBT, that sort of stuff, just testing the waters of how far Babs can take it with Dick. it makes Cass curious enough to try it, both sadism and masochism. she finds it takes a lot for her to enjoy masochism, but in the right applications, it's nice. there's something about letting herself feel pain, which she was never allowed before. pain is something to be compartmentalized and worked through. so there's something nice about turning her brain off and just feeling. especially if she's being hurt while she's in Babs or Dick's arms, bc she knows she's safe. both of them have become her safe space to explore new things during sex.

eventually, Dick comes to mostly accept being part of the relationship. he realizes he's in too deep when Cass casually calls him her boyfriend in front of Bruce just to make Bruce stutter. they're all adults, so it's not something Bruce can fight too hard. and Dick does have to admit, Cass has a point. there's far less arguing and fighting in this relationship. the grooming practically works better on Dick than it did Cass, bc now he's just accepted it and is going along with everything. he starts initiating sex, with either of them separately or together, just bc he likes giving up control to them. he likes the way Cass is gentle when she's domming, taking control from him without even asking and just taking care of him. and when Babs is in control, she's a little meaner, a bit rougher, but sometimes, he needs that too. sometimes he just likes to watch the two of them, see Cass call Babs mommy while she's crying and begging for anything. it's carnal and just fascinating to watch, even if he doesn't get off to it. seeing how much they love each other and how much they love him makes his head spin, because being with Bruce was nothing like this. Bruce rarely talks about his feelings, rarely said he loved Dick. meanwhile Cass and Babs will say it about a dozen times a day. maybe it's manipulative, but they make it sound so genuine, he can't bring himself to care. and Cass is pleased Dick is finally giving him, letting himself be loved. Babs is pleased to have control of both Dick and Cass. all of them are getting something out of it so really, what's there to complain about?

[franollie]

truly i am BEGGING you to drop more of your batman!cass au and more specifically all the stephcass stuff. especially with lori as a first robin, does steph already have an established relationship with her or does she start one post robin, does cass find out accidentally and then tell her immediately or does she keep it secret???

Cass met Lori completely by coincidence. She found her while on patrol the night after Bruce's death. Lori was caught up in a fight with muggers. Cass dropped in to try and save her, but Lori was actually protecting another person from the muggers.

Lori had recently lost her adoptive parents and has been living on her own and learning to fight and protect others. Cass slowly becomes her mentor then because she saw a lot of Steph in her. Their relationship started off a little slower. Whenever Cass would see Lori on patrol she'd show her the ropes. Eventually Cass offered her the official title of robin.

The first time Steph met Lori was a couple nights after Cass met her. (At this point in time, Steph has taken on the role of Batwoman). Lori liked Steph, but they weren't as close as her and Cass. They didn't really get super close until Lori opened up about how she missed her parents Steph opened up about her experience with teen pregnancy. (this is an over simplification but neither one of them have realized Lori is steph's daughter yet).

I have too many ideas about how they finally find out, but there are no hard feelings between them--Lori understands the situation Steph was in. Steph however feels really guilty about "abandoning" Lori, and Lori feels guilty about getting so attached to Steph and Cass (but Steph in particular) after her parents died. Complex emotions to untangle! yay!

[electricprincess96]

I bet the only reason you dislike Talia and the league is cause you're a BatCat shipper

Ha the jokes on you I don't ship Bruce Wayne with anyone really.

I dislike Talia, Ra's and the League cause they're not interesting, Bruce is always forced to be OOC whenever they're involved and he and Talia never had any chemistry to justify the insane OOCness. I also don't like how creepy they are, like their fans can complain about bad writing for them but even before they had Talia sleeping with a very much underage Jason Todd they had her kissing him after he got out the Lazarus Pit. Plus Ra's is a walking blood purist and a sexist. So like why should I like them again?

But I don't particularly care about Batman shipping. Bruce's most interesting relationships have always been with his children. I will take 100 storylines of Bruce trying, perhaps flawed in his methods, to be a better father for Dick, Jason, Tim, Cass etc. A better role model for Steph, Duke, Helena etc. a better mentor to Barbara and a better friend to Jim, Clark, Diana etc. Before I care to pick up and read a story that centres around a Bruce x anyone romance. It is not what I find interesting about Bruce Wayne. His relationship with his family, the family he chose and not one he was thrust upon, the way he tries and fails but keeps trying to be better for kids who remind him of himself is more interesting than anything that Talia and the League could ever be.

Now if you absolutely put a gun to my head and force me to choose a ship for Batman, yes it will be Catwoman. But I love Selina independent of her relationship with Bruce. So I don't NEED nor do I care if BatCat happens cause I think they can both stand as independent characters in their own right, something Talia can't do because she's forever tied to just being Ra's daughter, Bruce's love interest and Demon Brats Mother. Remove these men from her life and she's nothing.

[mistbornhero]

Who's your favorite batfam kid and why

It's a tie between Dick and Cass!

I think Dick I love through a combo of his canon and fanon characterizations, though I don't love a lot of the most prevalent fanon?

I have a lot of feelings for First Robin who gets Eldest Daughter Syndrome-ed by fandom. He almost murdered Zucco - and instead he became Robin! He stared the sidekick thing! He must now live with the guilt of every Robin who suffers! He has so many anger issues and then buries them deep because he's got siblings! He's on good terms with most heroes, either getting mentored by them, or passing on the mentoring! He's a performer at heart! He does not want to be Batman! He has to be Batman! He loves so much! He keeps loosing everything!

I initially decided to read Cass's comics because there's so few it seemed like a character I could believably read every comic for - unlike the rest of the batfamily where it'd be pretty impossible

But I do genuinely love her so so much and fanon does her so dirty

Tiny assassin child who was brought up to kill and barely communicate killed 1 person and went "nope" and proceeded to never kill again?? that's bait to me - she even put herself into the position where if someone has to die it will be her because she cannot watch someone else die. She was making progress on understanding language and then got it whammied into her brain in such a way that overwrote her understanding of body language and she just went and got back her abilities. Girl does not know how to do anything BUT be a vigilante and she will cling to it as her defining personality trait despite everyone basically telling her to go out to touch grass

-- I don't really like the Orphan version of her origin story? but meh

[zahri-melitor]

Potted Fanon Histories - let’s move over to the other Batgirls. Next up, BARBARA GORDON!

Barbara, child: Barbara is the daughter of Jim Gordon and Barbara Gordon. Her parents got divorced. Jim Gordon is a cop in Gotham.

Barbara, 15-17: Barbara sees Batman and Robin and the Batsignal at the GCPD. She decides to become Batgirl. (If we are really really lucky someone knows the costume party story, but generally motivation is no deeper than ‘because!’)

Barbara, 15-17: she teams up with Dick and they flirt as teens. It’s cute. Jim Gordon definitely does not know she’s Batgirl. Nobody knows any stories from this period.

Barbara, 18-21: Barbara is still probably Batgirl. She studies to be a librarian and works at Jason’s favourite library branch and tutored him.

Barbara, 21: Barbara answers the door and is SHOT BY THE JOKER. She ends up a paraplegic in a wheelchair. This is shortly before Jason dies. (Except for when it’s AFTER Jason dies, so Jason is horrified on his return to discover Barbara was also injured by the Joker and Bruce still did nothing!!!)

Barbara, early mid 20s: Barbara becomes Oracle, the information broker and dispatcher for the Bats. She lives in the Clocktower and her life is devoted to telling everyone else where to go while on patrol and hacking information when requested.

Barbara, early mid 20s: Barbara also runs her own team, the Birds of Prey. Black Canary is on the team. The ‘Birds’ don’t interact much with the ‘Bats’ but they cover Gotham during emergencies.

Barbara, early mid 20s: dated Dick for a while. Is jealous of Kory.

Barbara, mid 20s: mentored Cass and Steph as Batgirls. They hung out in the Clocktower with her as their base.

Barbara, mid 20s: has surgery so she can now walk! Returns to being Batgirl. She still might need her chair every now and then.

Barbara, currently: is one of several Batgirls. There’s a team of Batgirls! They do girl stuff together! She runs and directs this team, which also gets called the Birds of Prey.

Barbara, currently (alternate): Barbara is Oracle and runs comms and hacking for the Bats. Her only purpose is to find things out for you and give advice.

Barbara, currently: Barbara is dating Dick, unless she is just a good friend while Dick dates someone else. Alternatively, Barbara is dating Dinah.

[duskdog]

It's unfortunate that there wasn't more time given to Steph and Helena beyond the early one-shot they had together. That could have been a really good long-standing relationship. Likewise, I think the relationship between Steph and Dinah could have been great if it had lasted longer. In the beginning, Dinah was obviously reluctant/uncomfortable with it, and they never really had the chance to push through that awkwardness because they were all wrapped up in the Bruce Wayne murderer/fugitive case. (This was all made extra complicated by the fact that Steph didn't even know that Bruce and Batman were the same person, so she was entirely lost during this period, confused about why Batman had abruptly abandoned her, while everyone around her knew or discovered the truth but couldn't/wouldn't tell her. Having to hide that from her while dealing with trying to investigate and exonerate Bruce really seemed to make Steph's presence extra stressful and annoying to everyone else. This whole thing was pretty rotten, btw -- Steph couldn't do anything but speculate on the reasons for Batman's absence, and naturally assumed it was because of something she had done, and she was left to process her feelings of rejection and abandonment all by herself.) Ultimately, Dinah also rejected her -- albeit somewhat more gently than Batman did, but telling her to "go back to the Batboys" was a pretty nasty kick in the pants, considering the entire reason Steph was there was because "the Batboys" had rejected her first (and by Batboys I primarily mean Batman; Tim was away at boarding school for most of this, and also hurting over how Batman had betrayed him by revealing his secret identity to Steph without his consent). Babs wasn't really a great mentor until much later, after Steph returned from "the dead" and took up the Batgirl mantle. Prior to that, she was routinely snippy, cold, and sometimes downright mean to Steph. (For example: when Steph claims Cass broke her jaw, and both Cass and Babs claim she didn't, only to later admit to each other that they knew that she did, in fact, fracture it a wee bit -- like yeah, it's minor in the grand scheme of things, but why gaslight her about that at all? Babs even jokes -- in that deadpan way she has that leaves you wondering if it's really a joke or not -- that Cass should have really broken it good. Like damn, Babs, is that necessary?) Steph never actually seemed to hold this against Babs at the time, though, and their relationship improved significantly once Babs decided to give Steph a shot as Batgirl, after all. It was never fraught with as much pain and tension as her relationship with Bruce, and I'd say she and Babs are actually pretty tight now. Steph's mom, though, wow, she deserves a lot more recognition. This woman survived her stupid husband, kicked an addiction, and worked long difficult hours to support the daughter who kept jumping out windows and getting into fights with criminals. It's unfortunate that the vast majority of fanfics that even bother to mention Crystal at all seem to ignore her recovery in favor of either removing her from the picture entirely (death by OD, or sending her off to rehab), or keeping her around to be angst-fodder -- both of these often intended to justify Steph viewing Bruce as a parental-figure instead. It's also unfortunate that Steph has all this history with the Birds of Prey, and yet is being very much left out of their book right now even though Cass -- who was still her roommate and partner, last we saw -- is being featured. Give Steph a team. She's pretty much the only Bat-adjacent who's never actually had the support and friendship of a team. :(

I respect everyone’s headcanons and all…but!! I really don’t like how Steph’s long line of female mentor figures have been ignored. It feels like in fanon there’s a much larger focus on Steph needing a “Dad” role in her life, usually filled by Bruce or, weirdly, the Riddler (more power to y’all but Steph has at most shown disdain for Eddie in-universe) - when she’s had plenty of teachers, mother figures, or just her plain actual MOTHER (more on her and why she matters here!) that have cared for her & guided her when all the male figures in her life were telling her she was too flighty and irresponsible.

Dinah Lance,

Robin 80-Page Giant

Barbara Gordon,

Batgirl (2009) #3

Selina Kyle,

Catwoman #34

Even Helena Bertinelli for a little bit.

Batman: Huntress/Spoiler: Blunt Trauma They were all really important and defining relationships. I wanna see headcanons about them. Fanfics. Discussions. But I swear, I feel like I hear next to nothing.

I wanna change that. And I want y’all to change that 🥺.

[aingeal98]

It's interesting to me that Jason and Damian are the two with a lot of angst about how Bruce is projecting on them and yet out of all six siblings the only one he projects on less than them is Duke. (Perks of being the last and also not actually adopted. You just get a pretty decent mentor who actually helps your issues)

Bruce does project Robin Jason on Red Hood Jason and Talia/Ra's on Damian (only at first). But there's really not many comics that show him projecting the past Robins or Batman on Jason or Damian during their time. Not to say that Jason and Damian don't have understandable reasons for feeling that way but it's just not what Bruce is shown doing.

After that it's like a scale with Cass at the top (He projects so so hard onto her and unlike Dick she has no team to help her find an identity outside of Gotham and Babs tries but she's also Gotham and any time Cass goes outside of Gotham it's either destroyed or not actually given enough screen time to count. She is the Bat but looking at each of the siblings individual comic storylines, she's trapped in Bruce's shadow more than any of them because she never had a real lasting chance to build anything outside of it)

And Tim at the bottom (Bruce definitely projects and it's miserable for Tim (16th birthday example number one) but unlike Cass and Dick, Tim sort of came built in with that projection? Like Tim dove headfirst into the job of emotional support Robin willingly aware of the dead Robin before him and calling Bruce out anytime he felt he was projecting Jason too hard on him. Bruce looks at Dick and sees the hero better than Batman and looks at Cass and sees his own unhealthy ideal for Batman but he looks at Tim and he's like "Tim's great :) Tim's a great Robin he's talented he's got what it takes." And sometimes he goes too far but like. Compared to Dick and Cass and Steph (not a sibling so I didn't include her but considering Bruce's projection of Jason and Tim was part of the reason she died she'd definitely be just under Cass for me) Tim just isn't quite as bogged down by projection issues. Partly due to being a bit of an insane 13 year old who willingly offered themselves up as random child sidekick for Mr Batman to project on. And also partly due to how the original hero Tim worshipped was Dick, not Bruce. He's Schrodinger's Robin, both the most normal and the most not. But to me Bruce's projecting isn't the driving force behind a lot of his issues compared to the eldest two.

Which says a lot about Bruce's relationship Dick and Cass because even with his team of friends to rely on, Tim's mentality towards Batman and Robin and how he reacts to all Bruce's projecting is uhhhh not the most normal. But the oldest two just have him beat in terms of how huge Bruce's shadow deliberately looms over and swallows them whole. And also by how much it hurts them, in my opinion.

It's a sliding scale from Duke and Damian who he doesn't consistently choose to push harmful expectations onto outside of one or two storylines, to Jason who only gets it due to everything Red Hood, to Tim who he sometimes treats badly due to harmful expectations, to Dick who he consistently has on this pedestal and expects too much of, to Cass who is just. This father daughter duo can fit so much toxic but interesting projection into them.

[benbamboozled]

I think Jason should also adopt kids or atleast be a mentor figure cause what's a better to say "fuck you Bruce" than be a better dad/big brother than Bruce will ever be? Au where Jason becomes incharge of a little league. Au where he was Damien's babysitter except Damien imprinted on him and now follows him everywhere. Au where during his crime boss era he ended up making a safe space for street kids except few of the orphans are trying vigilantism so now he has to corral them away from that cause they keep beating up his henchman and shit he's a dad now :/. Au where he never dies but is kinda getting sick of Bruce's shit and one day he realises that this one kid with camera is like everywhere and oh shit the kid figured out all their identities, well guess that cant be helped huh? Hey kid wanna try being a vigilante, i was planning to start on my own and a sidekick wont hurt. (Jason was initially planning to just keep the kid busy and out of trouble, he was not prepared for the insane human disaester that was Tim Drake). Camp counsellor Jason

Okay first of all 1) I approve of all of these, and 2) Jason DID teach a group of meta kids slash world dominators in an arc of Red Hood: Outlaw! It was when Lex Luthor had a supervillain school for…some reason. (Maybe a law that all bald comic characters need a super-school at least once.)

ANYWAY, it was cute and he was good at it! I can’t really strictly recommend anything Lobdell for many, MANY reasons, but I did enjoy Supervillain-Teacher!Jay!

AND this ask actually sparks on something I was thinking about recently when it comes to the Batfam—it bugs me that they’re not allowed to have kids.

And I don’t even necessarily mean “biological children” (although note Wally and Roy and Donna were “allowed” to be parents—on some level at least), but they’re not allowed to have their own Robins. (Using Robin as a stand-in for “youth partner” because sidekick isn’t reeeally the right term.)

The closest we’ve gotten is 1) Dickbats and Damian, and 2) Barbara and Cass (although Cass was already an adult when she took up Batgirl, but she still was a daughter-figure to Barbara).

I feel like there’s two things going on here.

1) There’s a hesitance to give second-gen capes “sidekicks”/Robins UNLESS they have inherited a first-gen mantle. Dickbats can have a kid-hero buddy because he is BATMAN. Nightwing, otoh, cannot have a kid-hero buddy.

2) Batbooks being what’s keeping the lights on at DC means that they’re very afraid of shaking up the status quo too much. Which means that none of the “main” kids can grow up toooo much. Which means that none of them are “allowed” to be parental or even slightly parental figures.

(Honestly, I consider the kiboshing of a potential Jason/Bao team-up to be a symptom of this. We got a Gotham kid who has beef with the Joker, who kills people, who got into it with Batman about killing people? We have an issue out that shows him meeting up with the other Gotham guy who has beef with the Joker, who kills people who got into it with Batman about killing people?

NOPE WAIT SWERVE let’s stick the first kid with this other guy who just showed up! THAT makes sense!)

(Okay that sounds really salty and honestly I love Khoa, but I just dislike that particular development and ALSO KHOA MADE BAO GET RID OF BAT-BAT, JASON WOULD NEVER.)

ANYWAY, to speak to the heart of this ask, yes, give Jason all the kids, 500 kids, I support the Red Hoods Little League Team and here is their pennant.

[inamindfarfaraway]

Dark Oracle AU

Okay, I need to expand on this concept. I present my personal idea of a timeline from the canon state of affairs (or, well, my interpretation of them because comics are so inconsistent and full of crap, basically pre-New 52 with Duke) to Big Sister dictatorship!

The Batfamily is battling a really serious threat, like Ra’s al Ghul or the Court of Owls or a supervillain alliance or something. It’s a big deal. Very high stakes. The only reason they’re even attempting a mission this risky is because, thanks in large part to their resident information-finding specialist Barbara, they have a great deal of knowledge in advance and are sure they’ve planned for every possible outcome, as Bats tend to do. Except the villain has a secret advantage, another trick up their sleeve. There’s no way Babs could have found out about this, but of course she doesn’t believe that and blames herself, as Bats tend to do. The heroes aren’t prepared and in the chaos none of the contingency plans they’re able to execute work. By the time they defeat the threat… Black Bat and Batgirl are dead. Steph is killed first, heroically sacrificing herself, and Cass, the nearest to her, is caught off-guard in her shock.

I’m sorry! I am! But I truly think that Babs could not properly turn evil if she had Team Batgirl to remind her of her definition of heroism, of her own lingering inner Batgirl. She needs to just be Oracle. Cass is buried in the Wayne Manor cemetery; Steph in a public one the closest to the same distance from the Manor and Crystal’s house. They both get memorials in the Batcave.

Babs shuts down in depressed and self-hatred. She watched her daughter figures, her protégés, her Batgirls die because of (in her mind) her inadequacy. She feels like she’ll similarly fail at anything she tries to do now. She quits being Oracle and withdraws from the Batfam and her father. Remember, she has an eidetic memory, and watched and heard Steph and Cass’s deaths via the family’s mask cameras. They’re all she can see when she closes her eyes. Those screams are always ringing in her ears.

Meanwhile, Bruce takes this about as well as he took losing a child/young vigilante he inspired and mentored the last two times, but doubled. Although he and Alfred have enough experience that he doesn’t get quite as bad as fast as when Jason died, he’s still significantly more antisocial, aggressive, reckless and self-destructive and isolates himself more over the first months afterward. Jim notices the disappearance of Black Bat and Batgirl and the sadly familiar changes in Batman’s behaviour and puts the pieces together. He offers Batman what comfort he can, but is simultaneously worrying about Babs on top of his job. Crime rates go up whenever the Batfam’s numbers decrease.

The remaining Batkids are distraught. Other than Jason, they grow closer in their shared grief. Jason is off on his own turning his pain into violence even more savagely than normal. He recognizes that he’s falling back on his terrible coping mechanisms and doesn’t want to hurt his family this time, so he just doesn’t interact with them. Tim is hit especially hard due to being the closest to Cass and Steph - not to mention that he in particular so fucking sick and tired of his loved ones dying across his teenage years. He’s very unstable. Steph was one of the key people who taught Damian how to have fun and be a kid, and how important it was, so without her he’s more liable to forget that and backslide into acting cold, aloof, violently temperamental, etc.. Duke is made acutely aware of how short life is and that anyone he cares about could die at any time, so he actually strengthens his friendships with the We Are Robin kids. They can break down and be vulnerable with each other in private, but mostly push themselves harder because they each feel that it’s their duty to both keep Gotham safe and prevent Bruce and their siblings going off the rails. Dick is probably the least emotionally vulnerable because he has the most practice bottling up intense grief effectively and, with Bruce’s psychological decline and constant busyness, steps up more as the Responsible Adult alongside Alfred.

Bruce forbids Tim, Duke and Damian to go into the field and Dick agrees, because can they stop losing family for five minutes? A number of restrictions are implemented to uphold this. It’s Tim, Duke and Damian, though, of course they get out anyway. Helping people directly is one of the only sources of serotonin they have.

This is when things really start to go to hell: Bruce is killed. Because of his recklessness and accelerated by his poor health due to neglecting self-care. Because he charged into a dangerous fight alone, Alfred in the chair occupied with the Batkids. Because, Babs can’t convince herself otherwise, he didn’t have Oracle watching his back. The Batkids really could not stop losing family for five minutes. He’s buried right next to his daughter, the death dates just three months apart. Memorial in the cave, natch. But they don’t pretend he isn’t dead this time, so the whole city must mourn its Dark Knight. There are huge memorial services, statues made of him. Jim cries a lot. He already lost Harvey, now Bats?

Oh yeah, and - released a little later to throw people off and let them form a convincing cover story - Bruce Wayne is dead too. A massive blow to Gotham’s morale and even greater surges in crime follow. Their inspirational ray of sunshine and hope and belief in humanity is suddenly gone forever, and so soon after their original and most accomplished superhero. Who are they going to believe in now? Well… at least they still have the rest of the vigilantes.

Babs returns to work. Throws herself into it the way other people throw themselves off bridges. She stays on more formal terms with the Batfam at first, but does reconnect with them over time. She moves Cass and Steph’s memorials to the Clocktower “for motivation”, and this is evidently effective, seeing how she goes into overdrive and is soon leading and coordinating everyone alongside Dick. Gotham is floundering without Bruce and Batman and she refuses to let it fall into anarchy. She’ll be its Oracle, guiding it to a brighter future. She’ll never not know or foresee something ever again. She can’t. Jim is getting extremely worried.

If she’s doing badly, Bruce’s own children’s mental states can be summarised as deep shit. Everyone embraces the family’s classic coping mechanisms, workaholism and emotional repression, harder to try to cope with the chaos. Tim takes over more Wayne Enterprises responsibilities. You know, ‘cause he doesn’t have enough on his plate. Unlike last time, Bruce is definitely permanently dead and he doesn’t take that well. Alfred… is going through it. Sorry, Alfred. A small comfort is that Jason is inspired to treasure his remaining family and he and his siblings and grandad work on repairing their relationships.

Things don’t go Gotham meets Oceania overnight. Babs eroding her code of ethics to the point of evil dictatorship is a slow process, the kind you may not even register until it’s happened. One year after Bruce’s death she’s composed enough to run for mayor, still cripplingly afraid and resentful of Oracle’s limitations. She needs political control over Gotham to make it a better place in the long run. Who are the people going to believe in now? Barbara Gordon! Her loved ones are proud and supportive of her, having been reconnecting with her lately, if concerned that she isn’t processing her grief that much even compared to the rest of them. Her policies are focused on security and reforms to the police force and legal system that aim to reduce crime and corruption, which in the context of the soaring crime rates and spiralling despair of the Gotham public all seem wonderful to many. Surely, things at least can’t possibly get worse than they have been. She wins in a landslide.

The mayor’s power plus Oracle’s power soon goes to Babs’s head. Over the next year she slips from hero to antihero to a darker shade of grey. Her level of surveillance gradually moves out of the reasonable zone. Her patience for disagreement wears thin. When the Batfam or law enforcement take down a crime organization, she will siphon off their assets and information to consolidate her power rather than redistribute all of it to the people. For the greater good, obviously!

This culminates two years after Bruce’s death when Oracle defeats the Court of Owls with a cunning scheme (if they’re the ones who killed the Batgirls, this part hits extra hard): she fakes an alliance with them to set up a double cross, her ‘downpayment’ of information to gain their trust being false and luring their high command into a massive vigilante and police ambush. But Babs doesn’t dismantle the Court like the Bats expect her to. She takes control of it and integrates its vast, rich archives and information network into her own, now essentially omniscient regarding Gotham’s criminal underworld. She also uses the Court’s under-the-table connections to manipulate political and legal proceedings. It’s great for eliminating all corruption besides her own.

This move triggers the ideological conflict that’s been brewing amongst the Batfam to spill over into a devastating fight. Babs and Dick are at the forefront. Babs is accused of tyranny and selfish ambition, Dick and his allies of holding onto a naive, obsolete ideal of protection, both sides feeling betrayed and that the other is “becoming what they fought against”. It’s very emotionally charged. Very painful and bitter for everyone involved.

In the end Alfred, Dick, Jason, Duke and Damian leave in regret and disgust. To explain why them: Alfred is never turning evil. We all know that. The fabric of the universe would unravel if he did. Dick is likewise functionally incorruptible because he’s Dick Grayson, he’s the light of the DC universe. He is utterly heartbroken though. Him and Babs being enemies is the maximum angst option, I couldn’t not take it. Jason has already been through a ‘using villainous methods to protect Gotham how Batman won’t because a) I genuinely believe the ends justify the means and b) my mental health is a train wreck’ phase and basically come out the other side. He isn’t gonna do that again, but as a subordinate. Him and Duke’s backstories make them both more down-to-earth and grounded in the reality of the average and lower-class Gotham citizens’ everyday lives than anyone else in the Batfam, so they can see most clearly how Babs’s actions are harming their people. And Damian is closer to Dick and Duke than Babs, but also similarly to Jason did the edgy ‘morals hold you back, absolute punishment and terror will fight crime more efficiently’ thing and outgrew it. He learned to value human life and rights and swore his loyalty to the mentors who taught him this and their code. He learned how to reject the toxic bullshit the League of Assassins had been feeding him his entire life; it would insult his character growth in my opinion to have him accept Barbara’s toxic bullshit.

That leaves Tim to be Babs’s primary enforcer. Sorry, Tim. Someone had to do it. Between his severe psychological vulnerability and lack of his brothers’ personal experiences with immorality and insights into the average Gothamite’s life, I think it should be him. He’s also the CEO of Wayne Enterprises and involved in the Wayne Foundation and that pairs nicely with Babs’s data collection. Any Wayne Technologies device can covertly monitor people. To sever himself from the bat and bird motifs of the lost and unenlightened and show his allegiance to Oracle, he creates a new vigilante identity called Python. This is a reference to the Greek myth of a giant serpent called Python (from the original name of Delphi, Pytho, and the namesake of the snake classification) who resided in and guarded the site of Delphi, before Apollo killed it and installed his own prophetess Pythia in his place. He’s got a green scaly jumpsuit with armour plating. Two curved swords imitating fangs. Scale throwing blades. A penchant for nonlethal gas and aerosol tools like knockout gas, tear gas and smokescreens, in allusion to the natural hallucinogenic fumes at Delphi that led to its holy reputation. It’s cool. Sinister, but cool. Snakes don’t have eyelids, matching the relentless surveillance theme. Fun fact: pythons eat bats and small birds.

Shock of the century, Babara “Heaps of Recent, Untreated PTSD From Losing Loved Ones and Compulsive Need to Always be Aware and On Top of Everything” Gordon doesn’t take being ditched by all but one of her found family in stride. She has a total breakdown, blames herself for not being able to make them see things her way and lashes out by cracking down even harder on the populace. She’s accordingly immensely grateful for Tim staying and very protective of him. Were he to leave her too, it could be enough to shatter her.

The five rebels join the Birds of Prey, who leave Barbara after hearing how she turned on them, the Gotham City Sirens, Holly Robinson, Slam Bradley, Duke’s We Are Robin friends and a number of other malcontents, including Crystal Brown, to form a resistance. This alliance is called the Shadow Guard - ‘shadow’ because they literally are largely nocturnal, but furthermore it’s a contrast and opposition to Oracle’s prying and shining a light onto things; a declaration both that they are her blind spot and that privacy, the unseen, the ability to keep people ‘in the dark’ deserves to be protected. They’re guardians in the real shadows and of the figurative ones. There’s the angle that they’re only shadows of the Batfamily at its peak and the people they were then too. The rebellion uses pre-internet technology to be safe, with the occasional exception of scavenged tech cut off from Babs’s network.

Mayor Gordon declares Nightwing, Red Hood, Robin and the Signal to be dangerous, untrustworthy public enemies, even suggesting that they’re responsible for the mysterious disappearances of Dick Grayson, Damian Wayne and Duke Thomas. This forces Jim, who’s been putting off realizing that his beloved daughter and the only family he has left is having a moral degradation arc in favour of softer appeals to her compassion, to confront that Babs is now pretty damn totalitarian and he cannot stand by any longer. He joins the Shadow Guard as a spy, and supplies resources, equipment and other employees with consciences to their ranks. His hope is that once her power is removed, Babs will have to face the consequences of her actions and come to her senses. The three year mark is when her directing of the police cycles around to be so militarized and oppressive that her initial real ethical reforms are trampled, vindicating Jim’s decision.

Why don’t external superheroes and the government officials intervene? Because Babs is still their information broker. She provides them with vital intel and has truckloads of dirt on all of them. She isn’t above passive-aggressively reminding people of her ability to ruin them to get them off her back, even demonstrating it by leaking sensitive information, causing a scandal, giving an advantage to a rival, etc. every now and then. The rest of the US is watching the events in Gotham thinking, as people so often do, “Someone should do something! …But it’s not gonna be me!” (For the sake of the plot just quietly ignore the Superfam and Wonderfam and Flashfam and so on, okay?). Besides, Gotham’s crime rates are the lowest they’ve ever been. Oracle is untouchable and none of the illicit activity can be traced back to Babs, or even proven at all most of the time.

Keep in mind, Babs still doesn’t technically directly kill anyone. Tim doesn’t either. He just arrests criminals and disturbers of the peace and hands them over to the justice system. Business as usual. When they and all records of them disappear overnight, and when nobody ever gets out of Blackgate or Arkham… well, questioning that isn’t in his job description, and Babs and his job are all he has left. He’s come too far to give them up.

Four years into Babs’s mayorship, Gotham’s settled into its continually worsening dystopian status quo under a utopian facade. The roll down the slope accelerates when Jim’s spying is discovered. Babs is horrified, furious and deeply hurt. She almost, almost backs down, but falls victim to the sunk cost fallacy and desperately reaffirms her self-righteousness. He has frustratingly durable moral integrity, so she orders him arrested to get him out of sight and out of mind because again, she cannot handle another loss. The rebel Batboys break him out, they fight Python and the police, it’s sad and dramatic. The rebels get away by the skin of their teeth, but they’re followed. A raid on their base deals harsh blows and gets a sizeable proportion of them arrested, killed or traumatized into submission. They regroup and try to find a way to take Oracle by surprise. Jim is now the Shadow Guard’s co-leader with Dick.

Gotham is peaceful. It’s orderly. Supervillains are a thing of the past. Barbara is like the oracles of legend: whatever she says will be, will be. Needless to say, she won’t have much competition in the upcoming mayoral election. From there, she plans to expand beyond Gotham. The only problem that remains is how to stop her treacherous family and lay the past to rest once and for all…

That’s the catch with oracle stories, isn’t it? In the end, you find you’ve become exactly what you most strived to avoid being. Think of King Oedipus, the archetypal Greek tragedy and ironic prophecy story: a just, wise and noble leader stubbornly seeking knowledge to protect their people from ruin in a time of great suffering, only for they themselves to be the criminal they were looking for and the cause of their city’s corruption.

I’m ending it here with a five year time difference and pretty much in the heroes’ darkest hour, because this is where I would have (my) canon Babs, Steph and Cass transported to this world to help bring dark Oracle down.

[majingojira]

Part of the conceit of Batman Beyond is that Bruce has driven away or lost all his supporters, because crotchety old man syndrome. So, let's think of futures for all of the other kids. Dick has become... basically Nick Fury. Lean into both the Spiral stuff and the fact that everyone just sort of likes him, so he's the go-to guy for support. Jason is pulling a "Retired Badass" routine living in a Cabin in the Woods for a quiet life after some terrible injury (with Artemis, who being Immortal, still looks the same). Tim and Steph have moved out of Gotham proper and run a Youth Center program, passing on skills needed to both survive Gotham and pull others out of poverty. Osensei Cassandra sometimes visits, but mostly spends time in Kamar-Taj and the like, training herself and select students. That she helps out at the Youth Center is far more of a gift than the people there realize. And because this is Cass, she still "Heroes" things up. Her students often wish to follow her footsteps, but she has strict guidelines on when they are 'ready' to help out. A story arc could be Cass coming to visit Terry to refine his skills. Damian is pulling a "I've turned the League of Shadows into a force for good!" bit. But those are just my thoughts. Edit: I FORGOT DUKE! Duke is the leader of the Outsiders, a team of heroes who operate internationally, away from Bruce's reach and without JLU approval. He's a solid mentor to others and uses his Cosmic Awareness to head off problems before they become too big.

One of his proteges is the daughter of Katana and Black Lightning. Because I SHIP IT!

I kinda feel bummed out that Dick, Jason, Tim, Stephanie, Cass or Damian isn't in Batman; Beyond

I love Terry as a character, but where Bruce's other kids at😭😭😭

[danny-chase]

I know a Tim stan, and we have come to a conclusion: Dick and Jason were taken for granted. Tim, because Bruce now knew his kids could die, was given compliments and such

I feel like Bruce also kept his distance from Tim, but maybe that's because i read Tim's solo and stopped reading the detective comics and batman comics after Tim's initial arc, but it kinda felt like Bruce just let Tim do his own thing rather than being a team with him, and called him when he needed help going through like camera footage and stuff (from what i recall of the batman comics). Also it seemed like he spent less time training tim (he sent him off to Dick for a period of time, and then to Europe he kinda just offloaded the work). It was also a different relationship with Tim from the start - even though Dick pretty much immediately considered him a brother, Tim already had a dad (and while Jack wasn't winning any awards, he took Tim fishing, disciplined him, housed him, and covered the dad role after he woke up from his coma), and it doesn't really seem like Bruce considered Tim his kid like he did with Dick and Jason. Tim didn't live with Bruce. He was only there to be Robin, he wasn't there to be Bruce's son. Eventually Tim is adopted, but it's as a publicity stunt to catch a kidnapper of rich kids, whereas for say Cass and Dick, it was the culmination of their relationships with Bruce. I think you can't only contribute Tim's different treatment by Bruce as to the fact he knew his kids could die - because when you look at his relationship with Steph, he's super hard on her partially because of how much she reminds him of Jason. Like he literally takes Cass to Jason's grave and draws comparisons to Steph to make a point to her that Spoiler shouldn't be a hero. When Cass loses her ability to read people, Bruce stops letting her out with Jason as his justification. He doesn't really do this with Tim - and I think the reason he does with Steph is because he sees similarities between her and Jason, and that with Cass because he sees her as his daughter, whereas with Tim he's distanced himself enough and doesn't see the similarities between Tim and Jason. I think that distance and having to be present in the double role of parent and mentor is why he does better with Tim (and out of text, some of it's definitely the sexism of the writers when you look at how Steph is treated vs how Tim is treated, plus Tim's kinda written as a self insert power fantasy for nerdy boys so he can't be getting dunked on).

Now on the other hand, this is only really taking modern era stories into consideration, and we don't really have too many examples of how Bruce parented Jason in the modern age (when Jason was young). We have plenty of examples for Dick (Robin: Year One, Batman/Scarecrow: Year One, Teen Titans: Year One, Dick's origin getting retold 5000 times, flashbacks in Nightwing stories, Robin & Batman, etc. etc.) where it's pretty clear Bruce was not the best parent (in mild terms). With Jason we don't really have the same thing - so that begs the question - what was Jason's relationship with Bruce like in the modern era of comics? Are the original comics with him as Robin still mostly canon? Because Bruce wasn't really a bad parent in those. To which then it seems like he learned from the mistakes he made with Dick and did better with Jason as a father before Jason died, and then after Jason died just went to absolute crap and Tim was only spared because Bruce didn't consider him his son. Idk, food for thought