#carylells

[my-mt-heart]

I think I mentioned before that the love triangle is my least favorite trope. It just feels very YA to me, less mature, which definitely doesn’t fit a relationship like Daryl’s and Carol’s, nor their individual characters who are so careful with their hearts. Creating foils for them on the other hand has been very illuminating in some instances. 

Even though I don’t like Carol and Ezekiel together at all, I do like seeing Daryl’s jealous side. It’s not a typical jealousy because nothing about Daryl’s character is typical, but it causes him to turn inward and weigh his worth against Ezekiel’s. He knows he’s no king, he isn’t charming, he isn’t a leader, so in his mind, he can’t possibly be good enough for Carol. 

But we as an audience learn through the different interactions between all three characters that he could not be more wrong. Daryl understands Carol in ways Ezekiel never could, always putting her needs before his own, respecting her boundaries and her independence. He’s the one who has Carol’s heart, the one who immediately makes her smile when he gives her a gift, the one she’ll say “I love you” to. 

The “triangle” if you can really call it that, only takes a wrong turn for me in S11. Carol and Ezekiel do not need to get closure from each other ten times over. They don’t need a long shared arc with far more screentime than the relationship we’re actually invested in, and we don’t need the question of will they/won’t they [get back together] hanging over our heads so close to wrapping the series. Knowing how to use foils also means knowing when they’ve stopped being useful all together. 

The same can be said about Carol’s foils. On one hand, Daryl’s and Connie’s dynamic shows us how much Carol is struggling to love herself for who she is. She thinks she’s a bad person, unworthy of Daryl’s love, despite loving him so much she’s ready to sacrifice her own chance of happiness so he can be happy with someone she perceives as “good.” 

The romance she keeps pushing for never actually happens though, which in itself reminds us Daryl isn’t an alpha male. He can’t pursue every woman who happens to interact with him. He can’t test the waters with someone he likes or respects. He needs to fall in love first, he needs time, he needs depth, he needs Carol. And that’s all really sweet, but the longer the “Connie” arc drags out, the more superficial it becomes, accomplishing nothing for any of the characters and leaving every viewer unhappy. 

Speaking of which, adding Leah to that mix is probably one of TWD’s most controversial writing decisions that everyone (rightfully) resents. It didn’t have to end on such a bitter note though. Unlike killing off Glenn and Carl, which there is absolutely no walking back from, risking Daryl’s character integrity for a random relationship could have at least been the catalyst for Daryl and Carol to finally go canon. The set up is there. We get the parallels between Carol and Leah to tell us who Daryl really chooses and why, but it ultimately goes nowhere. Carol and Leah don’t even get to interact. [Insert long, angry rant about that here]. 

I’m not looking for a do-over on any of these arcs or for any new ship to take their place (for the love of god, stop with the ship baiting). The more love interests Daryl and Carol garner, the less they feel like themselves and we’re already teetering on the brink of unrecognizable with this ridiculous France premise. But, if there’s more to come for Caryl, some acknowledgement would be good. It only takes a few lines of dialogue to explain to the characters and to the audience why Carol didn’t return Zeke’s feelings, why it wasn’t like that with Connie, why Daryl really got together with Leah. And if handled with care, it could be very impactful 

[bluebell218]

carylers

After sunday, we will have made it through 6 episodes with 0% direct caryl interaction (but hopefully some indirect *metaphorical* action). 

Which means it can only go up from here!

They did a helluva a lot of filming together for 6b, so we’ve got lots to look forward to. Y’ALL ARE DOING GREAT! WE CAN DO THIS!! 

[my-mt-heart]

Trying to think about this possible caryllel between 10x21 and 11x18 instead of letting myself get strung out about 11x20 before I’ve had the chance to watch it.

[my-mt-heart]

11x04 Carol/Leah Parallels

When I was watching the episode, hardly any were jumping out at me, but several hours later and there are like a bunch that desperately want out of my head, so please excuse the random stream of consciousness...

- Their appearances...Both are rocking those grey up-do’s, and I’m so curious to know what the hell is going through Daryl’s head. Did he always know that, but intentionally edited it because he was relaying the story to Carol at the time, and he didn’t want her to catch on? Or is seeing Leah again after so many years jogging his memory and now he’s fully conscious of what it signifies? Also, Leah is still wearing the bracelet that was highlighted in Find Me

-The ways they're shown to take care of Daryl. Carol gives him that gentle haircut while Leah’s effort to clean him up turns to suffocating him with a rag and waterboarding 

 -The “we would never have been happy” conversation between Leah and Daryl. Leah is resigned to the idea that peace and happiness aren’t attainable for her, and I personally think she will take that with her to the grave. Carol probably assumes the same about her own happiness, but that will change. Daryl used to think he couldn’t be happy, but now sees it as a possibility and wants it with Carol. 

-”Seeing all of me, the good and the bad.” Daryl implies he can only see how ruthless Leah is at the moment. I don’t think he believes she can’t be good (yet), but it’s something that needs fixing. This should be juxtaposed with Carol, who sees herself as broken, but Daryl sees all the good in her. She doesn’t have to fix herself.  

-Daryl is afraid to let go of Carol (and TF) for Leah, but gives up Leah for Carol (in the form of that knife)

-a perceptive character like Negan calling Carol Daryl’s girlfriend vs Reapers who “don’t know shit about shit” calling Leah Daryl’s girlfriend

-We see the different ways Daryl and Leah don’t know each other as well as they may have thought. For example, Leah calls Daryl stubborn, but he’s actually being protective of his family. Daryl says he had no idea she was a mercenary. On the other hand, it’s shown that Daryl knows Carol in every conceivable way, better than she even realizes. “I never told you I was claustrophobic.” “If I only knew what you told me, I wouldn’t know shit.”  

 -Daryl pulls Leah out of the fire first like he pulls Carol out of the cave first. Also highlights the way Daryl and Leah work together (words are needed, tone is more frantic) vs Daryl and Carol kicking ass together at the military base in calm silence 

-Daryl lies to Leah to protect the people he cares about. Daryl lies to Carol to protect Carol. 

-A Find Me parallel, but still needs payoff: Carol and Leah have both lost adopted sons. 

^Some of these might be reaching, but that’s what I got. 

[my-mt-heart]

I caught the parallel with Leah repeatedly blaming Daryl for leaving (which he may still feel guilty about a little) and remember in season 3 episode 9 after Daryl left with Merle (choosing what he thought was family, not ready to let his brother go) Carol told Beth not to be pissed at Daryl. She never ever blamed Daryl for leaving and was just happy he came back. Leah keeps blaming him. Carol doesn't ever blame Daryl for anything. I saw this parallel and think it is just lovely and interesting.

And too, after they come back, Leah tries to emotionally manipulate Daryl to recruit him, saying how basically Pope and her people are not to be reckoned with. Whereas with Carol back in season 3 was giving Daryl cautionary advice regarding Merle for his sake. Not trying to manipulate him by saying things that would compare TF with Merle to buffet Daryl or put her at an advantage. And she only wanted for Merle not to bring Daryl down. Because, after all, "look how far you've come". She was praising his growth and that made Daryl feel good. She was willing to accept Merle, unlike the others who were just tolerating him, for Daryl's sake because she trusts him. That is really big.

Another parallel is in season 9 episode 7 when Carol sees Daryl again after some time has elapsed, she takes care of him, asks about him, tries to be encouraging to him (with his camp, his ability to survive out there so long, making dinner for them), wants him to let go of the guilt of Rick's "passing"/disappearance because she knows he is blaming himself for it. Leah tortures Daryl by...aiming a shotgun at his head, waterboarded him, has him gagged or something, threatens him, sticks him in a cage and only after she thinks he is cooperating, she gets him arrangements that are "more comfortable". And even when Daryl thinks Carol may only have wanted him back to take care of her son, Henry is transparent with Daryl (as kids often are) and says that his mom misses him and says that he is her best friend. Understanding that he means something to Carol is what got Daryl to go back with them. But there is no one to vouch for Leah about her intentions and feelings towards Daryl. So she can think she has him all to herself, whereas Carol does not want Daryl to be held down by anyone (not even her, because she still thinks she's a burden and that Daryl deserves 'better'). So to me the comparisons are so wonderfully telling that Carol's love for Daryl is healthy and wholesome. And Leah's love for Daryl is rooted in selfishness that would surely suffocate him.

A couple more things. Leah wants to recruit Daryl because she thinks he would be good for THEM and for her. But Carol wants Daryl in a community or group primarily because it would be good for HIM.

It is also shown that Carol can talk about Daryl's other friendships/relationships/bonds with other women, like Leah and Connie. She can handle that and still be there for him, even though I suspect it must be awfully painful for her to suppress her own feelings and dreams for Daryl's sake. Now, Daryl and Leah are never shown speaking about any other female companion in Daryl's life, past or present. And I am willing to bet that Leah will not be able to handle that when the subject matter presents itself.

Hi, by the way. I am the anon who left you the review. Thank you for inviting me to say my piece again. :,)

Great observations. I completely agree, Carol has and will always be very supportive of him, trying to put his needs and feelings first.

[my-mt-heart]

One of the things I love about the Caryl ship, apart from their amazing bond and history together, is how often their individual story arcs and character development parallel and mirror each other (even when they are not involved in each other’s story). For example, Carol’s story arc with Lizzie and Mika has many similarities to Daryl’s story arc with Beth, their stories even run into each other (the footprints, the smoke, the burned walkers). Another example is how the event of Denise’s death triggers them both into leaving Alexandria on the same morning with opposing goals, or how Carol during the whisperer arc is similar to Daryl during the Savior arc.

They both have stories and traits that are unique to their character, but there are just as many instances where we can pull up scenes where one is behaving or going through the same as the other. These elements really add to the strength of Caryl as a ship for me.

Do you think this is something the writers intentionally put in there to show how much these two characters are connected to each other as a pair or do you think it is more of a byproduct of them being similar characters with a similar history?

I love all of the mirroring as well, and I think it's bits of both believe it or not. The smart thing to do as a writer is to let the characters' emotions drive their actions and when two of those characters are so like-minded, they're bound to steer themselves down the same path at times. But also, and season 4B is a perfect example as is Diverged, there seems to be circumstances intentionally built around Daryl and Carol to create mental blocks that are preventing them from coming together the way they're destined to. After 11B airs, I really want to re-watch the series so I can do a proper deep dive on Carol's and Daryl's journey together, including the things you mentioned.

[my-mt-heart]

Anyone bring up to you the parallel between Carol's long running struggle with her own faith vs Leah & her seemingly cult-like devotion to poisonous faith? Is it just me or does it feel like an allegory for their acceptance of making the "hard decisions". Carol's always struggled with what she's needed to do & it's obviously all weighed very heavily on her over the decade.

...then there's Leah. Who seems to feel justified wholely in & unrepentant for her ruthlessness.

Am I just reading too much into this?

An aside, as a dyed in the wool Atheist, this storyline is horrifying to me in a way that none of the others have been, so far. It makes my skin itch. 😬

GIVE ME YOUR SMART BRAIN THOUGHTSSSS

That's a great one. I didn't think to tie in religion, but I did pick up on the differences between Carol's sense of morality and Leah's. Leah tells Daryl that he’s seeing all of her, "the good and the bad," and unless I'm interpreting it wrong, he seems to suggest her self assessment is skewed because currently, she's only showing how unrepentant she is for her ruthlessness as you put it. Meanwhile, we know Carol's awareness of herself is also skewed, but contrary to Leah, she tends to only see the bad while overlooking all the good. And you have to think at some point Daryl is going to call her out on that just as he does with Leah. Because ultimately, I think the point of all of these parallels is to help Daryl work out for himself why he loves Carol and can't love Leah. And secondly (assuming they meet), so Leah and Carol have the opportunity to realize who they truly are by seeing who they are not.

[my-mt-heart]

I just noticed that in 9x07 (Stradivarious) daryl hands henry an ointment to help with his injury (to prevent infection). In 10x07 (open your eyes) carol hands lydia an ointment “to help with the bruises”. Do you think that parallel was done on purpose by the writers? if so what do you think it means?

That’s a great observation. My first guess is it’s one of those happy accidents, but you never know. Either way, it’s a great example of how well Daryl and Carol mirror each other. They both have a natural instinct to protect kids no matter the circumstances. It’s hard for Daryl to interact with a kid whom Carol adopted with another man, but he’s going to still look out for him because it means a lot to Carol. Likewise, it’s painful for Carol to talk to the daughter of her son’s killer, but she also understands what she’s been through on a deeper level in terms of abuse and knows she’s also important to Daryl.

[my-mt-heart]

How did Daryl feel about Carol killing Karen and David?

How did he feel about Carol not wanting to talk about it?

It’s like Daryl said to Rick, “that’s her, but that ain’t her.” She may have done something Daryl wouldn’t have, but he knows her choice doesn’t define her as a person. She is still Carol, the woman he knows and loves.

As for Carol not talking to him about everything, at that point in time I imagine Daryl wishes she would, but also accepts her choice not to and wouldn’t dare push her if it was too painful. That’s why he was encouraging her to start over instead so that the past doesn’t consume her. He wants her to heal.

In recent seasons, we can see this entire emotional arc repeating itself, only this time Daryl is getting frustrated. He still wants that future with her, but he’s tired of talking in circles. Nothing he says or does is helping her, which hurts him deeply, and he doesn’t know how to proceed. She has to meet him halfway. She has to want herself to heal too.

[my-mt-heart]

Do you think alpha and hera are a couple?

Alpha and Beta? There are parallels to Carol and Daryl. For example, both Beta and Daryl will do anything for Alpha and Carol. Beta may also love Alpha, but I think he'd try to repress it because romance is not the whisperer way.

[my-mt-heart]

Do you have any memorable Carol and Daryl parallels? I would love to knowwwww

Do you mean examples of Daryl and Carol mirroring each other? Oh, babe. This is like an essay question. There are way too many. I'll talk about one that jumps out at me right away:

9x01/10x06: The scene on the loading dock and the scene on the log. In both, Daryl and Carol talk to each other about other love interests, highlighting how different Daryl is from Ezekiel (nobility vs lowliness) and how different Carol is from Connie (good vs. bad). In the first scene, Carol is in a good place, Daryl is not. In the second scene, Daryl is in a good place, Carol is not. Ultimately, Daryl and Carol are not on the same page, neither one of them feels worthy (apparently that's a trigger word for some, but I'm using it anyway), proving they aren't ready to get together yet. They need to both conquer their demons, squash their insecurities, and believe in peace and happiness in order to move forward with each other.

[my-mt-heart]

When carol finds out about Daryl being held captive, do you think she will stop herself from being reckless as she was with alpha?

I feel like carol would go reckless to save Daryl, but given what cost her the last time she did that, idk if she'll do that again because she's trying to fix everything, so idk

She would absolutely be willing to sacrifice her own life if it means saving Daryl's. She doesn't necessarily have to be reckless (i.e. put anyone else in danger) in order to do so.

Even though there's no indication yet of Carol's involvement in Daryl's captivity, it does feel like the perfect opportunity to weave their arcs back together, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I can already imagine a beat between them where Daryl is like "What the hell are you doing here?" and Carol responds with something akin to "You said you were done coming after me, not that I couldn't come after you." My mind can't help itself, guys.

[my-mt-heart]

@freefromthecocoon @my-mt-heart Aww guys that is so beautiful if we can get a carylell scene with them stargazing somewhere out on the road. And might I just add that whilst teaching her about the orientation of stars, can Carol be lying face-up on top of Daryl? That way they are both in parallel position and whatever Daryl is explaining to her with his hands Carol can follow it by holding his hands while they make shapes with them? Fanfic please. Or fanart. I'm not choosy.

I would love to see this in fanart.

[my-mt-heart]

How do you think Carol is gonna react when she finds out that knife Daryl allowed her to keep used to belong to Leah?

Assuming the knife is going to be brought up again at all, you mean? ;) I don't think she'd react angrily or enviously. That just doesn't seem like Carol to me. More likely, she's going to question why Daryl would let her keep something allegedly so meaningful to him, and then Daryl's going to have some explaining to do.

Seriously though, putting that knife in Carol's hands is the perfect setup for some intense drama between Carol and Leah as well as Daryl and Leah, and it would be really unfortunate if it all went to waste. That being said, I can totally see it going to waste. Prove me wrong, show. Please.

[my-mt-heart]

Okay, I'm at work and before I go on break, I get to thinking about what Daryl said about "making mistakes" and "wanting to do better". That makes me so mad! If they were in a relationship that was romantic, why does it seem so far Daryl is bearing all the blame for why it didn't work out? Leah's no damn saint. Making it seem like Daryl is the one with all the problems in the relationship and me having yet to hear Leah own up to any of her own faults in their relationship is irksome! That is such an abuse tactic! I know Daryl is working the field but it still makes me mad that she doesn't take responsibility for anything. 😡

Now, take Carol. She is visibly showing that she is taking responsiblity for her actions and mistakes (which were at least benevolent in nature). That she lied to Daryl, broke the trust they had. Hurt him. She is trying to fix it. Carol is without a doubt the more wholesome woman. Leah is a time bomb waiting to destruct and take Daryl with her.

Not that I’m a psychologist, but to me it seems like Leah might be a bit of a narcissist (“not everything’s about you Leah”) who needs to be chosen above all else with no room for negotiation. I’m relieved Daryl’s able to see through that despite previously carrying so much guilt, though that hero complex of his might come into play later. Those are really great juxtapositions between Leah and Carol that I’m sure Daryl’s picking up on. The more he can deconstruct his relationship with Leah, the more value it places on his relationship with Carol which is important considering they are currently strained.

[my-mt-heart]

One article pointed out that a rendition is “the practice of sending a foreign criminal or terrorist suspect covertly to be interrogated in a country with less rigorous regulations for the humane treatment of prisoners.” It makes sense if Daryl is being captured in this episode, right?

It sure does. I also wonder per the most recent trailer if the B story for that episode is going to show Aaron, Jerry, and Carol interrogating a Reaper at Hilltop. I'm convinced Carol's going to have reservations about it, which is why we hear her telling Aaron "this is a path you don't want to go down." That could create an interesting parallel and/or juxtaposition between Carol and Leah who are both in the position to torture someone and either handle it completely differently or handle it the same (if Leah is pretending to help Daryl).