#can possibly destroy the divine gate

[bread-wizards]

My crackpot, 0 evidence just vibes theory is that Ludinus is the human incarnation of Tharizdun (like how the Downfall characters were for their gods.)

[utilitycaster]

The thing that gets me abt the framework of downfall and the way Ludinus(and some ppl in the tags who seemingly are trying really hard to roleplay Ludinus) read it is that they're like "look at how the gods meddled and laid low to destroy this bastion of human achievement, they had no right and should have let themselves be systematically exterminated/have the world burn instead" when. Setting aside the revelation that the gods who struck down Aeor made themselves mortal to do it-- as in, they were on the exact playing fields of humans when they made their move and it wasn't some huge peacocking of power against upstart humans to strike them out of the sky-- the Divergence is going to happen. We KNOW the Divergence is going to happen. The gods are going to create the divine gate and remove any chance that they can ever do something like this again. "Blaugh, look at them meddle and plot-" and? Whatever they do, we know that the sun will shine once more. Melora, as brutal as she is as the starved Asha, will plant a tree of hope in the most destroyed wastes of Wildemount. And they will ensure that the suffering they wrought in the calamity, in Aeor, can never ever repeat the same way they had done it. Which is a HELL of a lot more than can be said for Ludinus who is actively reviving every cycle he can

first off "some ppl in the tags who seemingly are trying really hard to roleplay Ludinus" took me OUT so thank you for that.

I just reblogged a post with a quote from Cooldown that I think is really relevant in understanding the whole story of the gods and how we got to this point but like, just to summarize (and debunk a few things, hopefully) from the beginning of the episode to the end re: the life of the gods:

Gods (possibly aspects of the Luxon?) crash-landed on Exandria BECAUSE of what is all but outright said to be Predathos.

As far as I can tell, no deals were made between the gods and the Titans. The only person who has said this from what I can tell is Asmodeus, who I would not consider a reliable source of truth. Or rather: one might have been made but there's no corroboration that I know of.

They created the people of Exandria and sealed away Predathos both prior to the Schism

The Schism occurred when the Titans decided to attack the people (which to be clear - the people had been there for long enough to build that weird ruin on Ruidus with a portal, like, I would love to know what prompted the fight of the Schism since it had pretty clearly been millennia of coexistence).

The Betrayers decided the move was to leave and start over, and the Primes felt that was a dereliction of duty to the people. That's what the quote is about - it's about the fact that Erathis's motivation for being a Prime Deity isn't "mortals are my blorbos!" it's "we have an obligation to our creations" and more generally that the Prime Deities are invested in their domains for the overall good of Exandria but not necessarily the specific good of Aeor. (Taliesin follows it up with (as Melora) "You'd have to tear me from this fucking planet" w/r/t the idea that you cannot, in fact, destroy your bad first draft simply because it would be more convenient to you.)

Betrayers get sealed, unsealed, events of EXU Calamity occur (notably: the titans are all dead. you can fight about whether this was just or right later but they're gone and killing other people won't bring them back; the titans are largely used as a pearl-clutching prop by people with no arguments that are perhaps actually relevant to the current situation), and perhaps 50 or 60 years into the conflict the gods call a truce re: Aeor's Obtenebrator and commit to decades of living as mortals (and therefore limiting themselves considerably)

And so here we are

And I think this really gets to the point. Because ultimately, the argument in favor of leaving Aeor be is "when someone points a gun at you, lay down and die" and the argument in favor of the Betrayers is "when someone tells you to abandon your (living) obligations for them, do so." The former is despairing and nihilistic and the latter selfish and, well, a betrayal.

There is something profoundly nihilistic about Ludinus, for all he talks about freeing people and a better world. He's destroyed a city of innocents. He's indoctrinated hundreds if not thousands of people and many of them have died in his service; he's the architect of an empire and many wars in its name and is actively working with a second one. He's been killing fey and he's even physically given himself over to the cause. There is no crime or sin people attribute to the gods that he has not done himself in measures beyond nearly every other mortal. Like, I really think he's at a point where he just is unwilling to "lose" even though he has a friendless life and a legacy of violence and has destabilized the entire world and the weave of magic itself. I think he has to believe there's something on this Occultus Thalamus for him because if there isn't, he, like the Prime Deities, probably can't just pick up and start over. All he has left is to give in to just letting the world burn in the hopes that at least he gets the satisfaction of what he hates burning with him.

Basically, sounds like a rough time to try to roleplay him in the tags.

Something else you (and others) bring up is that amid all the "history is written by the victors" the story of Aeor and of the gods has actually painted them as far harsher. The story doesn't say that they were first chased to Exandria unwillingly and did not come in conquest; the story, as this post notes, evokes vast divine might striking down a city from the heavens and not like, living in fragile mortal forms during one of the most dangerous times in history and arguing amongst each other over how they can save both themselves and Aeor and if that's even possible. Like, even if you see the gods as the victors of this story rather than simply the survivors, the "unedited" version of the story makes them far more sympathetic.

You also mention the Divine Gate and that's a really interesting thing to me because the existing status quo of Exandria is actually remarkably nascent if you think about it. The Founding had gods, titans, and mortals. Post Schism had the Prime deities and mortals (and it is worth noting this is when the people of Exandria became the most technologically advanced; you want to talk about the Titans and Betrayers, you need to cover that the price of the wonders of the Age of Arcanum was that they were not present). Calamity had all the gods and mortals again, and the current era is the first where the gods are behind the gate. It's kind of a compromise between all the things that have tried to destroy one another - Betrayers and Primes are separated but all are free within their realms and can indirectly contact mortals; technically, so can Predathos. None can directly be on Exandria. Is it ideal? No. It's a compromise, and the sealed can become unsealed (which, consistently, goes very badly) but it's the option that doesn't involve the total annihilation of anyone. Ludinus seeks, by setting off this horrible cycle again, to undo that fragile imperfect compromise with a goal of wholesale slaughter. He provides no option for the gods other than "die by my hand" when even some of the gods were desperately trying to find other options for Aeor as of a day prior to its destruction. He's simply wallowed in his trauma for centuries, becoming colder and more unfeeling and less empathetic and more arrogant than the gods he accuses of the same flaws.

[vvitchllng]

I think I would have more understanding for the people saying “the gods should die” and “maybe Ludinus has some points…” if this Exact Tragedy wasn’t the deciding factor for the gods moving beyond the divine gate

We saw how easily devastating the gods could be in that final battle and how they destroyed a city to keep themselves safe and we also saw how that was a Very Last Resort, how they over and over again wanted to save lives, and more importantly, in the Immediate aftermath of it they looked around at the horror they wrought and said Never Again. Never again will we allow this to be possible and to ensure it wouldn’t, they Left Their Home, left this sanctuary they found after their own calamity, left it so that mortals would be safe from them

And if that Still isn’t enough to be like maybe Ludinus’ plan is fucking stupid and even if he at one point maybe was righteous, the devastation he has wrought on Exandria can not be justified, DO YOU THINK THE ENTITY THAT ATTACKED THE GODS IN THEIR HOME WITH NO WARNING AND PURSUED THEM RELENTLESSLY, WHO IS VASTLY MORE POWERFUL WITH W A Y LESS MORALITY THAN THE GODS YOURE SO MAD AT WILL BE AN IMPROVEMENT FOR THE WORLD OF EXANDRIA?!?!?

[hazelcephalopod]

Matron seems to be on team ‘the gods are holding mortals back’. She’s sick of the other gods and sick of this job.

some relavant points-

She did not know what would happen to Vax as she couldn’t “see his thread” after he became her champion. Also he’s rash and therefore hard to prefect. But doesn’t derserve his current state.

When asked about the Archearts plan. Says They wish to destroy the divine gate and deal with Predathos directly. Consensus amongst those who designed it has not been made.

Says she wants fate to decide the gods destiny, specifies she wants Exandrians to decide the fate of the gods.

She will not flee and excited by new possibility and trusts in her abilities.

When asked what happens to the souls in the afterlife currently. Says there were spirits before her brethren came and she assumes Exandria’s natural cycle will reestablish itself. “The substance of the soul is forever it will find its way”.

Why did she become the god of death? Admits there is some truth in her just having ambition, and also she wanted to see if she could. Additionally she did so with the help of the one who came before. She first tried to take the secrets of divinity from him. They became teacher/student(?), friends and ultimately she thinks she loved him. He asked her to become a god, helped her craft the rite lf ascension.

What became of him? Peace. “Wherever gods go when they come undone”.

Dows she still feel him? She feels echoes of him in is domains and her work. Maybe she still feels for him, but she feels for many including BH.

Is it worth it? For her in the end? She doesn’t know. Which is perhaps why she’s so curious.

What do you know of Predathos? It was before her time, and the family has kept the knowledge from her until they couldn’t. Whatever Predathos is it is bound to where they came from.

Asking someone who became a god. How do they contain what Predathos is? The same thing that allowed her to survive despite it being unlikely, what she is. Love.

We don’t share the love for Predathos, but we love each other? Love for each other might be enough.

The Archeart is bold and impulsive and wants them to do something, she just wants empower mortals to do as they wilt. She has no interest in breaking down the wall and doing another Calamity and refuses to be part of it.

Are you two willing to become new Betrayers? She is.

We’ve been told to embrace Predathos by some, but do you believe we can undo it? Anything is possible. “Anything is possible for you.”

Could you lend us any kind of help to tip the scales? Predathos undoes and unravels the power the gods rely on and she is uncertain what she could provide that wouldn’t also unravel in its presence but is willing to try.

She offers them her mask, Braius reaches for it. She tells him he’s at a crossroads and asks if he knows what that is and he says that a choice is ahead. She lets him take it, and says I’m a moment of need one of them may wear it and call for her aid. Aid might come.

Says she’ll see them all eventually but first one more question at least: are they to replicate the rite of ascension? That is not possible, she made sure of it.

oh and another! If you go what happens to your champion? I don’t know. I like not knowing.

and more. When was the last time you were surprised? Vax, three decades ago. The sacrifice/s he made.

Mortals are great because they keep defying the gods. And that is a sign the gods should stop forging the future of mortals.

If mortals let them stay they should damn well let the gods know why and renegotiate the terms.

Is there anyway we could help your champion? Destroy the key but make sure to remove the beacon first. As the (Luxon) beacon -in the bloody bridge machine- can change the universe in ways almost as terrifying as Predathos.

Can’t you just cut his thread now? His thread is beyond any of our grasp. (Edit: this refers to Ludinus)

Why are the gods afraid of these? Bc they don’t understand them. And they don’t like to admit they aren’t all knowing or all powerful.

If they should trust the people they fight? That choice is up to them she just wanted to see if they could do what it takes.

Laudna’s fate thread is silver and her fate is between realms, or did but now is connected to other fully living people, turning hers gold. The Matron considers her a victim not anathema. Could Laudna be whole if she continues the path of connections to her friends? Anything is possible.

Matron thinks she “deserves little but remembers what it means to fight for her survival and has her ways.”

[ittybittyremy]

bells hells' points about the archheart conversation (c3e108)

I organized everyone's points so that it would be easier to analyze them

This may look a little messy so sorry in advance

Note: I am only including the conversation and not anything afterwards (i.e. Braius' interaction with Asmodeus)

Conversation starts at 3:19:30 on Beacon

Chetney

Reminds the team that there is another god who has a similar opinion to the Archheart

Reminds the group that the last bit of the lock on Predathos shared a similarity with the Divine Gate. He wonders if they break down the gate, would it pull the pin on Predathos, keeping them back for a bit. And if that was the case, it could be fair game

Agrees with Orym's “I don’t know that we need to decide that we have to throw the switch instead of him when we at least have a chance to cut off his hand before he pulls it”

Asks Imogen and Fearne “I’m not Ruidusborn, so it’s not really up to me. How do you feel about the notion that one of you or both of you could be asked to be a vessel? Where are you? How are you feeling about that?”

Says “I don't know” at Imogen's “but there’s no way I’m more powerful than some of the Exaltants up there already”

Thinks it’s crazy that the gods could see BH as their last ditch effort

Says “right” (Regarding Braius’ “At the end of the day, whoever succeeds, whoever has power, whoever accomplishes their goals, they can make things right. You have to win first”)

“The weird part is all these different parties have the same goal, to push the reset button, to grab the reins. We all have different perspectives. The Unseelie want the chance to do it and wipe the slate but they want to be in charge. Ludinus, same thing, but he wants to be in charge. I’m not saying we’re wrong. I think we’re better, but we’re really no different.”

“I was asking if he had talked to Ludinus or done this before, like a catalyst, like a voice in your ear. I don’t know”

Feels like they’re having their strings pulled

Thinks that they should talk to the Matron because “conversations are important. Everything breaks down when people don’t talk.”

Laudna

“I really liked [the Archheart]”

“The other scary thing is if he’s sending Ruidusborn to their deaths, is he testing the boundary or are they testing who’s powerful enough to possibly take Predathos into them?”

Agrees with Dorian's view that releasing Predathos is inevitable but wanting to be there when it happens

Mentions that the Matron may be the one that has similar ideas to the Archheart

Wonders if Ludinus will be successful in broadcasting the gods destroying Aeor

Thinks there’s a chance that the gods strike back if the broadcast is released as there powers wanes

Reminds the group that Archheart said “a second Calamity”

Reminds Imogen that she’s very capable when she says “but there’s no way I’m more powerful than some of the Exaltants up there already”

Thinks that “being Ruidusborn doesn’t necesarily gives them godlike or god eater powers…”

“If it’s not [Imogen’s] mother, it’s probably one of the two of you. And that makes my stomach turn”

Doesn't think the gods are a monolith

“We’re the worst. Like just kind of in general, like we are a bunch of fuck-ups. We’re kind of the worst. Strangely, I think that’s the quality that everyone sees in us that makes us the best for this job” (Regarding Orym saying that the gods could see BH as their last ditch effort)

Agree’s with Chetney's “I think we’re better, but we’re really no different [from the others who want to release Predathos]"

“We learn more everyday. We’re still on this journey. No decisions have been made. We’re not speaking in absolutions.”

Thinks the RQ ”has a reason to take all of this very personally more so than any of the others”

Dorian

Thinks that Predathos being released is inevitable. He would rather be there when it happens

“Cowards are often honest” (about the Archheart)

Wonders if there’s a chance that the gods strike back if the broadcast is released as there powers wanes

Nods at Orym’s “Ludinus is at the end of the road no matter what.”

“Faith’s a hard thing to let go of” (regarding Imogen’s “but a lot of people on this world depend on [the gods]”)

“It’s hard to believe but there is real evil in the world. I’ve seen it. Not everything deserves a second chance… But maybe you’re right, I wish you were. I wish the world were the way you saw it but it’s got to be done, but that’s not a chance I’m willing to take either” (in regards to Fearne saying that Predathos potentially being good)

“I think Predathos is a weapon. Do we want to have the power to wield it? I don’t know. But I trust us more than anyone”

“It was so ugly the way we did [the mission], but we did do what we came here for.”

Asks Chetney if he thinks “we’re getting our strings pulled”

“I think (the Raven Queen) is motivated by fear as well. I would imagine if you could see the future, the one future you couldn’t see is the future where the gods come to an end.” (Going under the assumption the she can see the future)

Braius

He saw the deal as the vessel “being” Predathos

Makes an affirming sound at Orym’s “it can end at job one, if you do it successfully”

Doesn’t think they went to far with the mission. “We’re on a mission to save the world. Some stuff is going to happen. It’s all in service of a greater good”

“At the end of the day, whoever succeeds, whoever has power, whoever accomplishes their goals, they can make things right. You have to win first”

Fearne

“The deal is that we would [release Predathos]”

Thinks most of the world believes in the gods

“What about the other gods? What if they have different ideas?”

Wonders if we should get the opinions of other gods

Thinks the Archheart seemed tired

Doesn’t answer Chetney’s question about how she feels about potentially being a vessel

“I mean, listen, If it’s something that’s got to be done. It’s got to be done. Personally, I think- I don’t know, I think if something is captured up there, this Predathos. Does it make us any better that we’re keeping him caged up just to save other people and other things?”

“What if [Predathos] just want[s] to go back and be with his family?”

Agrees with Dorian's “Not everything deserves a second chance.” (regarding Predathos)

Strongly agrees with Imogen’s “What the Archheart is trying to convince us to do is the exact same thing that everyone else is trying to do.”

Imogen

“[The Archheart] made some really amazing points”

“Do we really want to follow?”

The deal is that we would still wake up Predathos. That’s the deal they want; wake up Predathos.”

She highlights that the people who believe in the gods wouldn’t get what they want

“The Archheart made it pretty clear that taking Predathos would be [deadly]”

Thinks the Archheart seemed tired

Agree with Ashton’s “I do think that most scenarios in this current situation lead to just the worst that we can imagine”

Agrees with Orym’s “Ludinus is at the end of the road no matter what.”

“I haven’t really thought about it yet, Chet. I’ve been of the notion that I don’t want to let Predathos free. I know so many people disagree with what the gods do, and so many in our group do. But a lot of people on this world depend on them. To throw that all away seems callous.” (When Chetney asked about how she feels about potentially being a vessel)

Wonders if they went to far with the mission

Agree with Dorian’s “Faith’s a hard thing to let go of”

“It’s not like, you know, their faith would be shattered because they don’t know. Their faith would be shattered because their gods abandoned them. Their gods would have run away from them in their time of need when all of their Ruidians or Reilorans are destroying their lands and demons from the depths are breaking through portals. I don’t know what will happen, to Orym’s point. So I don’t know how I feel about back that play up. But I think if it’s going to happen, if it has to happen, if there’s no stopping it, if it comes down to it and he’s coming out, then I would gladly step up and at least try. But there’s no way I’m more powerful than some of the Exaltants up there already”

“I think us (Fearne and Imogen) combined, there might be some hope”

Wonders if Predathos could be like Gloamglut. “He’s just young”

"Well, I kind of sensed him. He wants to eat” (Regarding Fearne wondering if Predathos just wants to go back to his family)

Thinks that they should talk to the Matron of Ravens to see what she has to say

Agrees with Dorian’s “It was so ugly the way we did [the mission], but we did do what we came here for.”

“What the Archheart is trying to convince us to do is the exact same thing that everyone else is trying to do.”

Wonders if the RQ knew her champions would become the catalyst for the key

Orym

“We’ve yet to see one thing that proves to us what will happen after that thing is let loose. We’ve had people tell us it will be fine, we’ve had people tell us it would be destructive. We’ve had a god tell us to fight. We’ve had a god tell us to burn it all to the ground.”

He wouldn’t risk it because he doesn’t think anyone, including Ludinus, knows what will happen when Predathos is let free

Disagrees with Dorian statement of “I think it’s coming, one way or the other, and I’d rather be there when it does”

Highlights that they’re making a play for Ludinus because taking Predathos on would be deadly

Acknowledges that the gods may have different ideas

“It’s a big coin toss, guys”

Agrees with Dorian’s “There’s no one I trust more than us”

Thinks that “Ludinus is at the end of the road no matter what.”

“I don’t know that we need to decide that we have to throw the switch instead of [Ludinus] when we at least have a chance to cut off his hand before he pulls it”

Thinks that it can/could end with cutting Ludinus’ hand before he pulls the switch “if you do it successfully”

“There’s nothing saying that you have to flip that switch and turn reality upside down. None of you can tell me what will happen if one our friends does what Ludinus wants to do. None of you have any evidence, proof. Intuition doesn’t cut it. Your gut does not cut it. You are putting the population of this world at risk. So I hope you are all fucking sure at the end of the road. I’ll be there to get you there. I’ll stand by your side. I will do my damnedest to keep you all alive. But don’t let it be a coin toss or ‘let’s see what happens,’ because you just don’t know”

“I also just over the last months have the feeling that we’re walking some line and that’s why so many of them are paying attention to us. Maybe they see us as a last ditch effort”

“It is, but it’s uncanny.”(Replying to Chetney’s “it’s crazy” that they’re the gods’ last ditch effort)

“No one said it was going to be easy” (Regarding Imogen asking if they went too far with the mission)

Ashton

“It’s a deal I can get behind”

“Everyone gets what they want”

Does not think most of the world believes in the gods, just “a lot” of them do

“They get to live” (In response to Fearne talking about other gods having other ideas)

They trust Archheart the most (of all the gods) because “he’s the only one who had clear misgivings. Everyone else was hand wringing. He was the only one who was actually - He was the only one with a big picture”

Trusts Archheart because he sees them as a coward. He thinks cowards are honest

“Big coin” (when Orym says that it’s “a big coin toss”)

Feels that they would know if Ludinus was broadcasting the Gods vs Aeor already

“I do think that most scenarios in this current situation lead to just the worst that we can imagine”

Says the they trust Imogen and Fearne (after Laudna reminds Ashton of the potential second Calamity)

Thinks that “it should be us”

Agrees with Orym’s “Ludinus is at the end of the road no matter what.”

“Job one. [Ludinus] doesn’t touch the switch” (Regarding Orym's “I don’t know that we need to decide that we have to throw the switch instead of [Ludinus] when we at least have a chance to cut off his hand before he pulls it”)

Responds to Orym’s “don’t let it be a coin toss” (Regarding releasing Predathos) with “Well, then we’re very lucky that we no longer have anyone who believes and puts their faith in a coin toss” and leaves

[kerosene-in-a-blender]

Having now finished Downfall Part 3, I have to wonder if at least part of Ludinus' argument against the gods is going to centre on the idea that the gods are a closed circle, how they will always choose their own over mortals. After all, the Primes went ahead with destroying the Factorum Malleus even after being told it was only going to be used on the actively malicious Betrayers, Trist gave up on the chance to save her mortal family to protect her divine one, SILAHA chose to save one unknown sibling instead of preventing Selena's Wish, without which Aeor would not have had to be destroyed. If one went into viewing these events with the goal of finding something to hold against the gods, I can see this being a possible option.

However, it's also a read that is contradicted by the footage itself. The mortal-born Matron of Ravens is embraced by the Primes even as the Wildmother expresses grief for the loss of the sibling she replaced. The Archheart is overjoyed by the idea that mortals advanced magic so far as to threaten the divine itself, and embraces Selena even as Aeor is falling to pieces around them. The Everlight's first action upon regaining access to her full divinity is to send a message to her children. The Lawbearer calls the mortal Emissary her son, and expresses deep grief that, as she could not by her nature come to Aeor herself, she sent him there to his death in her stead. The Primes as a whole make the choice to create the Divine Gate because they realize that as much as they love Exandria and the mortals that live there their presence is hurting it and them, and the most humane choice is to step away. The love the gods have for mortals is as palpable as the love they have for their siblings, and that is what makes the story as tragedy.

[ffsg0jo]

tw: cannibalism (yeah idk guys, i shocked myself. this was supposed to be cute 😭)

chimera suguru, who clawed up from the depths of tartarus, carrying the unfulfilled wishes of the dead on his clipped wings. it may be too late for him to soar up to the heavens now, but he sure as hell can drag as many people as possible with him to the bowels of the hellfire.

chimera suguru, who's got two long blackened horns, protruding from his hairline. a thin scaled tail trailing after him, and a long mane of luscious black hair. on his back rests heavy, wings as black as the night sky, dotted with flecks of gold. there's something so tragically beautiful about him that people can't help but stop and stare. upon looking closely, they find an alarmingly deep bitterness in the brown pearls of his eyes.

chimera suguru, borne from vengeance, filled to the brim with an innate desire to corrupt and destroy. he controls his urges as best as he can, but something inside of him purrs to release the wrath of his foremothers when seeing the looks 'normal' hybrids and humans give him. like he's frankenstein's monster, unnatural and a crime against a higher power, or mr hyde, deformed and inherently evil.

as if there's anything 'normal' about being a hybrid in the first place. besides, if it's a monster they seek, who is he to hide?

chimera suguru, who settles for feasting on the flesh and blood of regular humans. he hates it. he hates it so so much, and they taste like misery, but he really can’t help it. the voice in his head finally settles and quietens down when indulging in his latest victim, making sure to lick the blood clean off his lips. it’s not enough though, as soon as the last bite goes down his throat, his bloodlust increases tenfold. he hates what he’s becoming, but it’s an eat or be eaten world... right?

chimera suguru, who feels broken and messily glued back together. constantly in pain and agony, trying to reconcile with the two parts of him, split between somewhat moral and immoral. id growing stronger and stronger, silencing the superego, and tossing the ego aside. he wants his torment to end, the voices to quiet, the divine retribution in his blood to spill.

chimera suguru, who lays his eyes on you and an unfamiliar emotion churns in the depths of his gut. he’s so used to feeling hot flashes of ugly emotions, but looking at you, it was like crawling out of hell, on his knees, and onto heaven's gate. a hot, fluttery feeling slowly travelling throughout his body. he loathed it. he basked in it.

he’s never wanted to be closer to someone as he has you.

an: i tried to write a cute hybrid thing, but it ended up coming out like this. im not mad at it, but suguru and reader would NOT be a healthy dynamic. like at all.

© ffsg0jo 2024 — do not plagiarise, repost, modify, or translate any of my work, in any way shape or form; i will piss in your cereal if you do. all work belongs to me and me only.

[alicelufenia]

Thinking about my last reblog and how Baldur's Gate 3 character creation kinda fucked with my perception of paladins in the bg3 setting (it's specific version of the Forgotten Realms at least)

Since paladins don't get to select a deity at CC, I got the impression that paladins who's oath was not sworn before any particular god were more common than they really are.

There's technically a "Paladin of X" tag in game for dialogue, but the ONLY way to get it without mods is to also take a level of cleric and select a deity that way.

So when I made Alice as essentially a renegade paladin whose oath was sworn before no one except through her own conviction and fervor to self-actualize (she's Oath of Glory in canon) and that manifested divine power anyway, turns out that's really weird and uncommon in setting where most paladins swear an oath before a deity, and thus presumably are bound to tenets dictated by said deity (or the order of paladins they belong to, whether that reflects the true will of the god or not)

This is, in my defense, NOT how it works in tabletop 5e, where paladins select an oath but are not required to pick a deity (they still can pick one like many characters do, even those with no levels in divine casters). Giving a paladin a deity is more a nod to tradition, but RAW you're free to hold an oath without following a faith, just like you can be any alignment regardless of your oath (except maybe oathbreaker. BG3 even turns that on it's head by making it possible to be 'Good' as an oathbreaker, even restoring your oath, which isn't a thing in tabletop unless it's to repent for breaking it but without going full oathbreaker subclass)

Enter the most prominent paladin in Baldur's Gate 3, Minthara

Don't have any art saved to my phone so enjoy plushthara instead

She originally swore her oath of vengeance while in service to Lolth, to seek out and eliminate the enemies of the faith in Menzoberranzan (essentially part of the Lolthite Inquisition). This, by the way, is why she's so insightful when it comes to the other companions; it was literally her job to get good at reading people to find out what their deal was.

Her crusade against the enemies of Lolth led her and an army of House Baenre soldiers to Moonrise Towers, but instead of putting an end to the Absolute cult, she was captured, tortured for days, her soldiers killed or enthralled, and finally tadpoled and made to turn all that religious ferver and devotion towards serving the Absolute.

For this failure, Lolth abandoned her. As a Lolth-sworn drow (a problematic term basically made up for bg3 but works here) losing Lolth's favor is the most devastating thing possible, and there's almost no chance of going back. After being released from command of the Absolute by the Prism, she was, spiritually, alone for probably the first time in 250+ years of memory. Unless you come from a religious background only to lose faith later in life, you can't imagine what that's like (I don't ftr, but this is how I have come to understand it based on @spiderwarden's analysis)

And yet, despite this severing from a god that works Her way into every facet of Udadrow life, her oath endures. She remains a faithless (really faith-orphaned), but still undeniably spiritual paladin, bound to an oath that, for now, has her carrying out the same objective that sent her out of the Underdark before—destroy the cult of the Absolute, and seize that godlike power from those who control it.

When you rescue Minthara after romancing her in act 1, she says "You came. I prayed that you would, but there are no gods left for me." That raw-as-fuck line also spells out her current relationship to religion; IF a god would have her, she would be devoted. She even calls out to Lolth who, if the Spider Queen were to somehow take her back, she would in a heartbeat. With none answering her, she has no one but her savior, Tav/Durge, and their companions (whom she is now oath-bound to help whether she likes them or not)

And her natural inclination is to channel all that hurt, all that resentment and humiliation at being left with no divinity to know and to be known, into abject RAGE. Though she doesn't show it, I believe she is angrier and meaner NOW than she's ever been in life. That's why she talks about spitting on a shrine to Lolth, why she disapproves of offering tithe to any god at the Stormshore Tabernacle. Why she wants to BECOME a god, to become Absolute.

Hate is love betrayed. And I believe she had a LOT of love for Lolth.

Anyway this started as me musing on the spiritual nature of 5e paladin oaths in bg3, and kinda turned into character analysis for Minthara. Still, as the game's biggest example of a paladin who no longer serves any god but still commands divine powers to ⚔️SMITE Evil⚔️ by her oath, I think it came around in the end.

[metagamingseagull]

Downfall really got me thinking... The gods made the divine gate, so if shit got bad enough, they can unmake it right?

The last time they were this scared they called truce with the Betrayers and fully spent decades on a plan to infiltrate Aeor. They've got to be planning something to stop Ludinus by now. I think it's likely the Primes and Betrayers are already working together again (as we saw with the Wildmother and the Spider Queen collaborating in the Crownkeepers episode). It doesn't seem like the Divine Gate offers them any kind of protection from Predathos, so will they come to Exandria themselves to defeat Ludinus if its looking like he could be successful??

I don't think this would necessarily be very satisfying for the players mind you. Also, I don't know if Ludinus releasing the knowledge of what happened at Aeor would stop them from wanting to be seen working with the Betrayers to destroy mortals again. And they would want to avoid starting another calamity happening if they released the Betrayers. But if it's that or face death?????

Anyways, excited to see what info we get from the council meeting and possible god communing next ep!!

[volo-omnia]

Pokemon Legends Arceus is about Home and what it means to create a Home, change my mind (a mini essay)

Main series titles in the Pokemon series tend to follow themes and explorations of them. With mythology and tradition from Gold/Silver, our relationship to nature in Ruby/Sapphire, truth vs ideals in Black and White, and even the reoccurring themes of treasure and past vs future in Scarlet and Violet.

While PLA is a new departure from most series titles, it still explores a bunch of themes that are central to its story. While the land of ancient Hisui is partial to old traditions, divine gods, and the endless wild, several characters in the game have a recurring theme surrounding on the idea of "Home". This could be how "home" is defined, how one creates a home, and what it means to lose one.

One of the foremost examples of this is you, the player. While we know nothing of the player character outside of what is shown in the intro sequence and possible dialogue choices, the prompt of PLA is obvious. You were taken from your home by Arceus to be dropped into Hisui. Whatever life you had before, you will never come back to. And upon waking up on the beach that Laventon finds you, you have little to no memory, no money, no pokemon, and no where to go.

You have no home.

Now for the player character while it can be interpreted or headcanon a variety of possibilities, (such as the player character being the same player character from D/P/Pt) because it's a player character and meant to be a blank slate, we essentially don't know anything about the hero canonically outside of this. For all intents and purposes the hero has no home to begin with. But there is one thing we know. By the end of the game when you finally meet and defeat Arceus, he doesn't send us back home. We remain in Hisui. Once again, we cannot return to the home we came to. Hisui is our forever home now, but the choice is ours whether we accept or reject it.

This theme occurs a lot with the other characters of the game, to which we will be going through them.

One of the first characters in this game that also hits with this theme is Commander Kamado. Throughout the game it is specifically described as to how his character game to be. His home in Kanto was destroyed by wild pokemon, to which he and the other villagers had to immigrate to Hisui. Upon landing at Prelude Beach, they build Jubilife Village, a haven with large protective gates and guards always on patrol, ensuring security. It's their home, and Kamado repeatedly tells you throughout the game how he's determined to build a home for the village and himself. Even when the skies turn blood red and he banishes you into the wilds, he's determined to fight tooth and nail to protect his home.

This is one of the more obvious examples. Kamado has no home to return to. But in doing so with perseverance, he creates a new one. Even though Hisui is quite different from his old home in Kanto, he does settle with creating a new home, one that is safe, prospering, and peaceful. But when his home is threatened, he does not go back down to protect it.

A home is something you build.

Another similar example of this is the dynamic of Adaman and Irida. Their clans too migrated from other lands to Hisui, eventually settling on the land and living with the local pokemon. From their eyes, a home is something you must share and work together with. Even though they both warred over their patron gods, both the young clan leaders are determined to create a home that is peaceful and without bloodshed between them. However since this is the age of religious folks, insulting one's household deity is also akin to insulting one's home.

To some, a god is a home.

Later in the game we also encounter Lady Cogita. She like most, has no home. While Hisui is the land she has lived in for many years, her original home is long lost to time. As one of the Celestica, all of her people and culture have long disappeared, her god gone, and her old home now reduced to ruins scattered across the land. While she does reside in the Ancient Retreat, was it ever truly her home? That given her long life, does she ever miss the home she once had, and still vividly remembers? Is a home a home if you have no one to share it with? Does she ever feel homesick for her god that no longer answers her? She is a character with many mysteries to her, but you can't help but wonder what burdens could be going through her mind. The deities of time and space may have created the land, but is it the same as creating a home?

And most of all we cannot forget Volo. Your rival, nemesis, and literary foil. Unlike the others, he has no home, but has no home to return to either. Like Cogita, he too has lost all of his Celestica roots. However unlike Cogita, it's unknown whether he actually knows what their home was like before. Since we don't know canonically if Volo was alive at the same time as Cogita, we can assume he came long after the ruin of the Celestica, as he regularly questions her on the myths and traditions of a culture he isn't familiar with. He is a character that was born without a home, and tries desperately to pick up its pieces by ancient stories and writings on ruin walls. He also desperately yearns for his household god, as Arceus has long disappeared in the eyes of the world along with the Celestica.

Volo, as a character, is defined by his homesickness.

However unlike the hero, Volo refuses to accept Hisui as his home. As we all know at the end of the game when Volo reveals his true colors, he mentions that he wishes to subjugate Arceus to create a new world. In a desperate attempt to create a home he can finally accept, his wish is to create one with the powers of his god, and have pain and suffering be long-forgotten concepts. What makes Volo the villain in this scenario however, is that in order to complete this goal, it will destroy the homes of everyone else. In a grand act of selfishness, Volo is willing to destroy the homes of others in order to create his own. A home is something he is willing to destroy.

Overall throughout the game, the theme of what makes a "home" is repeated. Whether it be characters losing their home, characters trying to build a home, or characters trying to simply find a home. And as you play the game, the world around the hero changes. As humans and pokemon start to work together, their lives and homes start to become intertwined, creating a new life for everyone around them.

All lives touch other lives to create something anew and alive. That is a home.

[soath]

Of Contracts Between Gods and Men

On the Aeorian Kinsey-Deicide scale I’m a solid 5 (near exclusively god-preserving) which may seem surprising to my many dear associates who want those fundamental truths of existence wrecked. Without digging in any further, let’s do some quick religious history review on the question: Do you owe anything to the gods and do they owe anything to you?

The answer is not as universal as many raised in the nigh inescapable miasma of Christian theology may think! Reciprocal (or even unilateral) responsibility in religion comes and goes across history and geography. The Norse Aesir, for example, created humans but don’t owe them nada and only rarely bothered messing with them. The Greek pantheon are significantly more touchy on the subject of their pride but a person could manage offering no prayers or sacrifices as long as they didn’t promise any prayers or sacrifices. Probably. Compare this to Mayan theology, wherein both gods and humans have significant co-responsibility in maintaining balance; with ritual and sacrifice key to the continued safety of the polity. Divine-mortal relationships can be classified as nondirectional, unidirectional, or bidirectional with various advantages and disadvantages to each model. Gods come in lots of shapes and the demands they make aren’t universal!

A phrase that will often come up in any divinity studies is “covenant”. Originally a translation of the Hebrew berith or Greek diatheke, and also present in Islam, the Bahai’i faith, and possibly historical Phoenician religious practices, covenant theology has metastasized in Christian scholarship to the point it was genuinely hard to research this piece while dodging blogs by guys named Richard. But, broadly, it’s the idea of making an explicit deal with power(s) greater than yourself where you both have sides of the bargain to uphold.

Contract law is not the solution to every problem on earth or in fiction, but when the issue is a large disparity in power and mutual fears of future adverse behavior…. to quote Kate Bush “I’d make a deal with (the) god(s).”

Vitally, compared to other bidirectional pacts in world religion, Exandria has some advantages. For one thing, they have a godeater they’re right now helping to suppress. As long as the gods remain behind the divine gate they need mortal champions to effect their will—but that only holds true as long as the Divine Gate stays up. And unfortunately the problem with a fence someone else has erected is that you don’t know if they’ve kept a key.

If I was mortality’s lawyer? I’d ask for a second layer to that divine hamsterball I’d ask for anything left of the godkilling spark to be kept by the temples of Vasselheim—if they can’t be trusted with it no one can. And I’d promise cooperation from people of a certain degree of civic responsibility, not coerced or threatened out, whole hearted. But terms and conditions may vary.

Anyway, I guess the thesis is that it’s a terrible sin to destroy something you can’t comprehend with no idea of what the outcome will be (and a lot of you don’t seem to get the inconceivable joy of having/knowing/being a god, even just in fiction) but you can bring any monstrosity to the negotiating table. Don’t kill your gods, unionize against them.

[edelgarfield]

i don't want to risk coming off as a ludinus da'leth apologist, because i'm not, but imo I see his motivations get boiled down to "power hungry wizard" or "revenge against the gods" and I think both of those don't quite hit the mark. They're definitely both true, he does want power and he does want revenge, but imo there's more to it.

I don't recall if we were ever given an exact age for Ludinus during the Calamity, but he was young. Obviously young for an elf is relative, so I'm not sure if that means child or young man. But either way, I think it's fairly safe to say that he had nothing to do with either Avalir or Aeor. He was innocent and he saw the destruction caused by their war, and then they left to create their own realms, & he had to grow up in the shadow of the world they ruined. Like whether or not you think the gods are justified, that fucking sucks, and while the gods' decision to leave was the right one for Exandria, it's unfair that the survivors of the Calamity had to do the hard work of rebuilding. And there was likely a ton of fear & paranoia for a long time after the gods left, because they'd already left once before, only to return and for the fighting to start over again.

And even though the gods left, their eternal war still plays out across Exandria on a smaller scale. The Betrayers try to gain foothold on the Material Plane, the Prime Deities entreat their followers to defeat the Betrayers' forces. People fight, people die, the Gods remain. It's certainly the better option, and I'm not certain if it's possible for the gods to leave Exandria entirely so it may be the only option. But it still sucks and it's unfair that after all this time, mortals are the ones dying for the crime of being loved by the Prime Deities.

To Ludinus, I think he can never let go of the possibility of the gods repeating what they did during the Calamity. As long as they remain, he sees them as an eminent threat to all life on Exandria. From his perspective, the gods destroyed the world once for something that he had no part in, and at any point they could do it again. They might be behind the Divine Gate, but IMO if they banded together again, I'm sure with enough time they could open it again. (As for why they don't now, as I said, I believe it's an issue of time.)

IMO I think that fear is a big part of his motivation, perhaps even the desire to protect Exandria, to do what, in his mind, needs to be done to ensure its preservation. And I think the desire for power & lust for revenge is wrapped up in that. And the thing is, whatever opinion you have about the gods, he isn't wrong.

Whether or not you think the gods would return, whether or not it would be a necessary evil, & whether or not Exandria would deserve its fate, the fact of the matter is they could and it would be devastating to Exandria as a whole. If they decided to raze the world entirely and start over, no one could stop them. Whether they ever choose to exercise that power again, they do pose an extreme threat to all life on Exandria. And at the end of the day, that is very similar to the gods' justification for destroying Aeor. The knowledge of how to build the Factorum Malleus was too dangerous to release into the world. After Selena's Wish, every person in Aeor understood how to build the weapon. Whether anyone in Aeor ever chose to build it again, the possibility of them doing it, the possibility of them telling someone who would, was too great a threat for the gods to allow.

In Ludinus's mind, the gods represent the same threat as Aeor's weapon, and he, too, believes that the threat needs to be eliminated.

I feel like I shouldn't have to state that his plan with Predathos is still bad and his manipulation of Ruidusborn in the Ruby Vanguard is inexcusable, but this is the piss on the poor website so I'm saying it now. Assuming he's right about Predathos, releasing it would eliminate a huge threat to Exandria's safety. I imagine he sees the Ruby Vanguard similar to how the gods see the celestials & devils under their command. They're necessary tools in Ludinus's war against the gods.

He might have other goals in mind too, but in that sense he's not wrong. IMO it isn't solely about revenge or power, it's also about protecting Exandria's future. Again, that doesn't mean he should do it or that it's a good idea. It's not. But as much as Ludinus sucks and as awful as he is, I think he's motivated by a genuine desire to protect Exandria, because to him, the gods won't.

[utilitycaster]

@thmtrnfrvns replied to your post “ok so I was wrong about The Emissary and the...”:

didn't matt say that if you popped the bubbles those people turned to dust? Like the bubbles are the only thing preserving them? I might be totally wrong but I keep seeing this question being asked so I'm confused

​He hasn't, and I actually want to cover this. The lore has thus far been noncommittal, both from an out of world perspective (ie, the EGTW, for which this serves as a potential plot hook should people wish to explore it) and in-world (ie, in the canon of Exandria from the main campaigns and other canonical works such as The Nine Eyes of Lucien). We don't know if it's possible; we also very much don't know that it's impossible.

Which is what I want to talk about, because it's weird to me that this idea spread so much within the fandom - that the bubbles are an outright lost cause. I mentioned it before, but the argument the gods should be destroyed (even from behind the Divine Gate) in some sort of retribution for Aeor barely holds up as is; it certainly won't bring back Aeor, and the Divine Gate serves to hold back the gods already so destroying it only in order to kill them is purely an act of vengeance. But it really falls apart if there could be survivors of Aeor.

It's very easy to hold yourself up as the champion for people who cannot speak. They can't contradict you; you can say their motivations and desires are whatever you want. This is something explored in modern political thought, both in the many critiques of the anti-abortion movement (fetuses are fundamentally agency-less things) and in, for example, Dara Horn's People Love Dead Jews. Obviously this is true for any fictional character - none of them can respond to their advocates directly - but especially one who can't even in canon speak on their own behalf. If you say that Ashton would be on Ludinus's side, Ashton might, within the narrative, prove you wrong; but if you say the Aeorians would be, well, who knows. They're dead. Unless they're not. Bringing back anyone from the stasis bubbles fucks over that argument twice: now there are survivors, and those survivors can speak. (Worth noting that the two Aeormatons we've seen in C3 directly have not been in Ludinus's favor, and that his generals at least had no vested interest in sparing the Aeormaton they knew about; this isn't about the people of Aeor or what was lost, it's about pointing at corpses and saying they'd have your back if only they weren't dead.)

This a pattern for the people making arguments in Ludinus's favor. They invoke the titans (dead long before the narrative, and the person who killed the last two of them was Laerryn Coramar-Seelie, whom they don't seem to condemn for it, and they never really talk about what life for the titans must have been. It's not about the titans). They invoke FCG (dead, and they didn't really like them much when they were alive because of, you know, the whole faith in a deity thing, but now that he's dead they can pretend he's a mouthpiece for them. It's not about FCG, or Aeormatons, or Aeor.) They tried invoking the characters who were vaguely critical of the gods in the past but didn't have the lore to back it up and those characters (Keyleth, Essek, Percy) have all sided very clearly with the Accord, so now they stick only to people who can't weigh in and disprove the point. They make up hypotheticals about Bor'Dor and Petrov, the former of which is, again, dead, and the latter of which is a minor NPC with but a slim chance of appearing again whether he lives or dies and both of whom are equally representative of how the Vanguard preys on disaffected young people and chews them up and destroys them while telling them it's for the best, and ignore the many, many living who have been irrevocably harmed by the Vanguard.

It might end up being true that the stasis bubbles are a dead end, and I think it's pretty likely they won't get explored in-game, but if someone says they're absolutely a dead end - especially when Ludinus is going to invoke the fall of Aeor - it's worth exploring why they're saying that. Are they just misinformed (in which case you should still examine their argument, for, you know, not knowing the source material sufficiently well to craft accurate premises from which to argue)? Or would even acknowledging the possibility that they're not a lost cause destroy their argument?

[quipxotic]

So many people in the tags seem to think Bell's Hells can just ignore what the Arch Heart said in c3e107 and everything will be fine. But it's a game of chicken, right?

They could defeat Ludinus and still end up facing the Calamity 2.0.

They could prevent Predathos from being released and still face near complete destruction of the world they know.

Because it's about who blinks first. How long will the gods wait to unleash their attack knowing that their own existence is at risk? How long do we trust them to wait because we know, thanks to Downfall, that while the Primes may love mortals as their children they value mortal lives less than their own. And from a near-immortal perspective it makes sense. Lives that are gone in the blink of an eye and are soon replaced by a near endless supply of other mayfly lives vs those of your own family who can be with you forever? If you have to make a choice?

I'm not saying killing the gods or chasing them off are either one good ideas. I'm not saying we can trust Predathos won't do terrible damage to the planet or the people living there even if the Arch Heart and Ludinus are correct about them only being interested in eating gods. Orym was right, ants can still die even if they aren't the intended target. I'm saying that not treating a new Calamity as a real threat and an imminent risk is a sure way of being unable to prevent it. Bell's Hells need to consider what they're willing to do and not do to address that risk. And a lot of fans need to think about what they're willing to let go of for the continued presence of the gods of Exandria.

It's not hard to imagine a variety of terrible scenarios.

Bell's Hells. Dead. The Mighty Nein. Dead. Vox Machina. Dead.

Whitestone. Gone.

The Menagerie Coast. Decimated.

The Wildmother alive, but the Clays all dead and the blight they have fought spreading beyond the Savalirwood to engulf a larger part of Wildemount.

Rosohna hollowed out to create yet another set of ruins on that site and the people of the Kryn Dynasty who lived there turned into refugees.

The ruins of Aeor destroyed to prevent any more information and weapons from coming out of them, but done with the might of the gods so that it takes out all of Eiselcross and maybe Uthodurn with it.

Jrusar, Heartmoor Hamlet, and Yios. Gone. Bassuras still around because, let's be real, even a second Calamity couldn't kill that place.

Maybe this is the fight that succeeds in taking out Vasselheim?

If Predathos isn't released then Ruidus and the people on it might survive. But if Predathos is released AND the gods step out from behind the Divine Gate, does everyone and everything on that moon die in their attempt to stop the god eater?

This is obviously not an exhaustive list of the possibilities, just scenarios that are at the top of my mind. And it's not a foregone conclusion that anything like this will happen, but all of these things could happen. Think about every beloved place and favorite NPC and imagine them all gone. Because if the gods come out from behind the Divine Gate, they will all come out, not just the Primes. And once they are all out, how willing are the gods (as Braius said, ALL the gods) to go back to the old status quo, something that not all of them were happy with in the first place? You could have a situation where the fight with Ludinus over Predathos is over fairly quickly, only to be followed by a longer, more devastating fight between the Primes and the Betrayers, take 2 (or 3, or whatever number we're up to at this point).

How long does it take a group of gods to destroy a planet, even if they don't intend to do so?

[butterflydm]

more cr103

The fact that the group that has the least exposure to the gods and the least understanding about them is the one that is sorta incidentally saving them while doing something else is... I guess a vibe, lol. But I really do hope that at least some of them take advantage of being in Vasselheim to do some godtalking and at least get even a fraction of the understanding and knowledge that VM or MN had about the gods.

It isn't necessarily all that important for the plot - 'Stop Ludinus' is the plan whether or not you give a shit about the gods, and that motive has been baked into Orym's backstory since day one - but it just feels weird that the party that knows the least about the gods is the one given the most power over their fates.

So it seems like we could end cr3 with a few different possibilities:

a. Bells Hells succeeds; Ludinus is defeated and things go back mostly to normal

b. Bells Hells fails; Ludinus succeeds to a certain extent and we end up with another calamity and cr4 is a post-apocalyptic campaign in some fashion, with the gods either eaten or chased away (Chetney brought this up in the episode, iirc)

c. Bells Hells succeeds but only after the Divine Gate gets torn down for some reason (either by Ludinus or by the gods to fight Predathos), thus leading to a world that is more like the one pre-Divergence (honestly, this one would be kinda funny if only because of how much Ashton would hate it).

I do think that the recording wouldn't have as much of an impact on faith in the gods as Ludinus thinks that it would -- everyone who knows about the Calamity already knows that 'the gods destroyed Aeor', or at least I believe that's part of the established history/lore of the series; and we see two of the gods (Everlight & Dawnfather) actively seeking to not have to destroy the city the entire time that they're there.

It would make some people lose faith, but it would also endear the gods more to others (like it has done for Launda). I just... given how wide-spread faith is irl without anything like the pluses that faith-based people get in Exandria, I would just find it unlikely that the orb would have the impact that Ludinus wants. We've seen that the only people it really 'convinced' were people who were already inclined to be unhappy with the gods (Ludinus himself, Dorian, and maybe Ashton, but I think Ashton just dislikes any kind of authority/structure and I'm not sure if the orb actually had an impact on that one way or the other)

But, of course, if the world doesn't immediately agree with him, that only gives Ludinus more reason to invade and conquer and destroy, because now his pride will be hurt over the fact that people aren't listening to him ("I am talking!").

As someone who isn't a believer irl, my main feeling about fantasy gods tends to run along the lines of "are they more helpful or more harmful?" and the Exandria gods as a whole have shown themselves to be more helpful than harmful over the course of the three campaigns (*cough* defeating Vecna *cough*), so I'd like them to stick around (since they've shown that they can mostly keep the betrayers in check with the Divine Gate in place). There are fantasy worlds where Ludinus might well be doing something heroic by wanting to take out the gods... but I don't think Exandria is one of those worlds.

Exandria is a world where the prime gods were willing to take a hard look at the consequences of their actions and do something to prevent more harm in the future, even at the cost of losing something incredibly important to them. As far as fantasy gods go, they're pretty nice! Especially the ones we met in Downfall, I feel very fond of them.

[resident-problem]

***Spoilers Ahead***

So I'm reading the Chant of Light, as one does and this might be prophesy of the events of Dreadwolf? This is from the the Canticle of Exaltations by the way, which I guess (to all my former and current Christans/bible knowers) is basically the Thedas equivalent of Revelations.

This section of the Canticle is specifically signs of the Maker's return, so that's cool ig

"Seven times seventy men of stone (Titans?) immense

Rose up from the earth like sleepers waking at the dawn,

Crossing the land with strides immeasurable,

And in the hollows of their footprints

Paradise was stamped, indelible. (The Rumbling Part 2, now with more Titans)

And I heard from the East (Par Vollen/Seheron?) a great cry

As men who were beasts (outdated and gross referrence to Qunari?) warred with their brothers,

Tooth and claw against blade and bow,

Until one could no longer be told from the other (Qun and Tal Vashoth?),

And cursed them and cursed their generations.

And those who slept, the ancient ones, (reference to Old Gods? Or maybe Evanuris) awoke,

For their dreams had been devoured

By a demon that prowled the Fade

As a wolf hunts a herd of deer.

Taking first the weakest and frailest of hopes,

And when there was nothing left,

Destroying the bright and bold

By subtlety and ambush and cruel arts.

The ninth (there are more? Anyone know ehat this is referring to?) sacred mountain (Temple of Sacred Ashes, also location of Breach) upon which rests

The mortal dust of Our Lady ascended

Whole into the heavens, to be given high honor

In the Realm of Dreams forever.

And around it, a chorus of spirits sang:

"Whatsoever passes through the fire (Holy Andrastian rite, essentially baptism which is practiced in the Chantry, so I wonder what this is actually referring to)

Is not lost, but made eternal;

As air can never be broken nor crushed,

The tempered soul is everlasting!"

(Don't know where else to put this, but in Origins, if you bring Oghren along during the Temple of Sacred Ashes quest, he essentially confirms that there is a large amount of Lyrium present in the Temple. Which (and this is speculation) could be the cause of the Ashes curative properties. Not to mention in the beginning Inquisition, Cassandra mentions that the mountains in the area are full of old mining complexes. And Varric also points out the Red Lyrium in the Temple. So there may, potentially be a corrupted titan beneath the temple?)

And I looked up and saw

The seven gates of the Black City shatter,

And darkness cloaked both realms."

(If you're one of those who also believes that the Old Gods are some sort of lock (seven "locks", seven gods) keeping the Evanuri at bay, this could be a reference to that.)

The previous prophesy appears to loosely be the events of Inquistion, excluding the part where Andraste herself rides forth and proclaims the return of the Maker. So they are possibly coming true, just not exactly as written.

After having read that, I can see why so many thought that the Inquisitor genuinely was a servant of Andraste, and that it actually was Andraste in the Fade instead of Divine Justinia. Would've been neat to hear that verse in game, maybe as a way to convince the Inquisitor that they are an agent of the Maker's will. I feel like it would've made some of the religious fervor surrounding the Inquisition make more sense.